[0:06] we will

[0:07] we'll get this party started how

[0:08] about that

[0:12] good morning ladies and

[0:13] gentlemen and thank you for

[0:14] coming back today two of our

[0:16] revenue stabilization and tax

[0:18] policy interim committee

[0:19] appreciate the discussions that

[0:22] we had yesterday and as was

[0:25] discussed day one in in our

[0:26] meetings for this interim

[0:28] session day one will begin with

[0:29] kind of giving a background on

[0:30] the foundation for those

[0:32] discussions that we will have on

[0:34] day two which for the most part

[0:36] day twos will be the

[0:38] presentation of pieces of

[0:39] legislation proposed legislation

[0:40] by their spon

[0:43] s or s for the upcoming

[0:44] legislative session and so this

[0:47] is being done on the front

[0:49] and and and I just had a

[0:49] conversation withristina but

[0:53] iss is it easier this way

[0:54] nothing's ever easy in their

[0:56] world and they get that get that

[0:57] we're we're gonna go to oh

[1:02] a little bit of feedback you

[1:04] know we're we're gonna try to to

[1:05] help them out the the best way

[1:06] that we can and so with them

[1:09] drafting the bills upfront with

[1:10] with them by providing all of

[1:13] the context to the pieces of

[1:14] legislation hopefully during the

[1:16] session they won't be under the

[1:17] gun as much and and if they have

[1:18] to work on amendments that may

[1:20] be a little bit easier for them

[1:21] to do rather than presenting and

[1:23] creating a brand new bill

[1:25] during any one day or one

[1:28] week during the session so that

[1:29] being said I wanna again once

[1:29] again reiterate

[1:32] that this process again is one

[1:35] that that with all intent

[1:36] and purpose is done we're trying

[1:38] to create transparency and and

[1:39] provide an opportunity for all

[1:41] of us to begin to ask those

[1:41] real

[1:44] intriguing questions, difficult

[1:46] questions in many parts but at

[1:47] the end of the day of the end of

[1:52] the day of the day All right.

[1:54] got the remix this morning

[2:01] OK we the remix happening it's

[2:02] not intended to stifle

[2:05] yeah the DJ and that's right

[2:07] that'serrek DJy

[2:11] again it's not intended to

[2:13] stifle the process that we

[2:14] normally have in any one session

[2:17] this is simply meant to provide

[2:18] it an opportunity for all of us

[2:19] to begin to ask those questions

[2:21] and any one piece of legislation

[2:22] will not be endorsed here in

[2:23] this in this

[2:26] interim session but rather it

[2:28] will go through the these normal

[2:30] process but really at the end of

[2:32] the day for those that have a

[2:35] cost associated to the tax

[2:38] policy presented it will begin a

[2:40] process for for us to then begin

[2:43] to create a a budgetary ask from

[2:44] the legislative finance

[2:45] committeetee for the upcoming

[2:47] session so that we can then

[2:48] go into a session with some type

[2:49] of

[2:52] budget for a tax package

[2:54] rather than trying to work

[2:55] backwards and create a a a

[2:58] budget capacity during the

[3:00] session itself and with that

[3:02] being said, I also want to

[3:04] include that I would hope

[3:05] that that you provide

[3:07] opportunities to work well with

[3:08] our staff you know they they

[3:10] they work really hard for all of

[3:12] us and so for those of you

[3:14] that are having bills drafted or

[3:15] or that want to get on our

[3:18] agenda please do so and and

[3:19] and I know we do this anyways

[3:19] but in the in

[3:21] the most respectful way and I

[3:24] would also extend that to to

[3:25] those lobbyists that are working

[3:26] on behalf of their clients that

[3:28] when they're talking to or

[3:29] working with our staff or with

[3:32] any one of our legislators do so

[3:34] with respect because at

[3:35] the end of the day we're trying

[3:36] to make sure that that we are

[3:38] working as best as possible and

[3:39] and when we were met with

[3:44] with some friction it's not

[3:45] always the best and so I would

[3:45] ask the especially those

[3:46] lobbyists that are working on

[3:48] behalf of some of their clients

[3:50] to do so and in a respectful way

[3:52] and so with that being said we

[3:54] will begin our our morning

[3:55] session with

[3:58] senator Bobby Gonzalez. he has a

[3:59] couple of pieces of legislation

[4:00] that he wants to get in front of

[4:03] us on the front end and

[4:04] uhenator Gonzalez thank you for

[4:06] being here with us this morning

[4:07] and thank you for bringing the

[4:08] rain from Taos and we will begin

[4:10] with your first bill which is

[4:12] amending motor vehiclecle excise

[4:14] tax distributions and again

[4:16] senator we did have a discussion

[4:18] on with the DOT yesterday and

[4:20] we learned a little bit or a lot

[4:22] of bit about taxes and how

[4:24] they work and so this will be

[4:25] very much germane to the

[4:25] discussions

[4:27] and its continuation from

[4:29] yesterday so senator

[4:31] the senator the floor is yours

[4:31] sir.

[4:36] thank you Mr Chairman and

[4:37] members of the committee

[4:37] first of all

[4:39] just want to tell you

[4:43] it was very rewarding in many

[4:44] parts of the state yesterday

[4:46] seeing that rain and the most

[4:48] rewarding was seeing children

[4:50] playing outside on the rain they

[4:51] didn't want to go inside it felt

[4:54] good so that's a a good part

[4:57] for New Mexico the other part

[5:01] is on the first six years

[5:04] that I was elected to the house

[5:06] of Representatives I was on this

[5:07] this committee

[5:11] and so to me it's very

[5:12] special you know and

[5:14] and in those days and working

[5:16] with the the many issues and it

[5:18] continues and I know how hard it

[5:20] is and the planning that goes

[5:22] with it and that what it does to

[5:23] our state you know this is where

[5:25] it really comes you know it with

[5:25] a tax part

[5:29] and with a motor vehicle excise

[5:31] tax and the other piece of

[5:31] legislation that I have

[5:33] first of all is

[5:38] this is not about a democrat or

[5:40] Republican. it's about doing

[5:41] what's responsible.

[5:45] as legislators to our state and

[5:46] this is one department that

[5:51] really struggles into to

[5:52] recently that there's been some

[5:54] appropriations that have been

[5:56] made to the department that this

[5:57] department has to generate their

[5:58] own funding they're not

[6:02] connected to the general fund

[6:05] and it's it's been hard and

[6:08] also as we go through the

[6:09] presentation that

[6:12] the cost of doing business

[6:13] especially with

[6:16] the kind of work that has to be

[6:18] done with construction bridges

[6:20] and everything that goes with

[6:23] legal part and Eastman's and

[6:25] everything with the department

[6:26] everything has really escalated

[6:30] and today's presentation I hope

[6:32] I can give you that view of

[6:34] where we are because we haven't

[6:36] changed that part is the base of

[6:37] what generates the funding to

[6:37] this department

[6:41] and so with that sure I'll go

[6:43] ahead and start with a motor

[6:43] vehicle excise tax

[6:48] this bill does not raise a

[6:49] tax.

[6:52] it does not change the rate it

[6:54] does not change what is what is

[6:55] tax

[6:58] no one in New Mexico pays one

[7:00] cent more. He changes one thing

[7:01] where the money goes.

[7:06] and where the money goes now

[7:07] when you buy a car you pay the

[7:07] for

[7:12] this4cent tax of every dollar we

[7:14] collect59 cents goes to the

[7:17] general fund 22 cents goes to

[7:19] the road fund19 cents goes to

[7:20] the local project fund.

[7:24] and most of the car tax does not

[7:25] go to the roads.

[7:29] what the bill does is it flips

[7:32] the shares of or of every dollar

[7:34] 65 cents goes to the roads.

[7:38] 25 cents goes to the local

[7:41] project fund and10 sons stays in

[7:41] the general fund.

[7:45] that moves about159 million a

[7:45] year to the roads.

[7:50] the change starts July1st of

[7:51] 2027.

[7:52] why it makes sense

[7:55] you pay this tax when you buy a

[7:56] car.

[7:57] a car needs a road

[8:01] and it should be when you buy a

[8:01] vehicle

[8:06] the tax should should pay for

[8:08] the things it does it does tie

[8:09] to right now it does not.

[8:11] This fixes that

[8:14] The need is real. The department

[8:15] thinks that we have

[8:20] 75 billion in road work needs

[8:23] and we're only chipping away at

[8:24] that with the current

[8:25] distribution

[8:26] also

[8:33] or reference to to that7.5

[8:36] billion, the trip report shows

[8:37] very similar to the same needs

[8:37] of the state

[8:40] then no this past year

[8:44] we all know that we did pass

[8:45] that bond that is at1.5.

[8:49] and that is grateful that is

[8:51] good but you know it doesn't do

[8:53] what we actually need to be at

[8:55] or where we should be at but

[8:57] it's a it's a good part to to

[8:57] add to the department.

[9:05] in 2021 95 of every100 miles of

[9:08] our state noninterstate miles or

[9:09] in fair shape or better

[9:12] today it is about70

[9:13] of those

[9:18] 100 are going the wrong way.

[9:20] This bill helps your towns, your

[9:24] counties $1 in4 goes to

[9:24] transportation project fun.

[9:27] the fund makes grants

[9:31] to counties to cities and to

[9:31] tribes.

[9:34] the state pays up to 95 cents

[9:35] of each dollar

[9:39] or place in need and the state

[9:39] pays it all.

[9:44] this is about 20 million more a

[9:45] year for local roads.

[9:49] and at this part of

[9:52] Mister Chairman and members I

[9:54] would yield to if there's any

[9:56] comments there is any questions

[9:58] to this proposed legislation and

[9:59] also

[10:07] does your

[10:09] do you wish to make any further

[10:10] comments sir?

[10:16] m chairman and members of the

[10:19] committee I'mlin Turner I'm

[10:23] your body as a whole

[10:26] economist so I'm not here to

[10:28] support the bill or to oppose

[10:30] the bill but to either your

[10:32] chagrin or for your hopefully

[10:33] durable

[10:40] Reference I I serve the body so

[10:41] if you have any questions I'm

[10:42] here for that

[10:44] great thank you and also for the

[10:46] reverence of the committee right

[10:48] in the back of the proposed

[10:49] legislation is the is the

[10:52] analysis of the bill itself so

[10:53] for your reference it's right in

[10:55] the back of the bill and so with

[10:56] that being said we we'll open it

[10:58] up for some some questions and

[11:00] comments from the committee

[11:02] again stemming from the

[11:04] presentation made by the senator

[11:05] and also maybe even some of

[11:06] those questions that were

[11:08] proposed yesterday and some of

[11:10] the questions that were asked to

[11:11] the department itself when they

[11:11] were here presenting to

[11:14] us so that being said any

[11:16] questions or comments for the

[11:18] senator related to this

[11:19] amendment of the motorecle

[11:19] excise tax distribution.

[11:22] look it on the table

[11:25] Representative Gallegos

[11:30] thank you and and thank you

[11:32] senator for bringing this legis

[11:34] proposed legislation to you

[11:35] know you said it at the

[11:36] beginning of your presentation

[11:38] this is not a text. could you

[11:39] explain some of that explain

[11:40] that?

[11:42] very well

[11:46] this bill does not

[11:49] does not race attacks

[11:53] so it's what's current right now

[11:55] it's just the distribution how

[11:58] it's being set up today you know

[12:00] where the funding has been going

[12:01] the last few years.

[12:03] and the change would be on the

[12:04] distribution.

[12:08] and Misterir and senator I

[12:09] appreciate that because

[12:11] yesterday when the the roads

[12:14] department or DOT came to

[12:16] present they were really

[12:18] clear on that and they showed

[12:19] the different ways that the

[12:22] money can be spent and once I

[12:24] heard that I had a much

[12:26] different perception of of the

[12:29] bill than I did when I first

[12:30] read it on the agenda cause I

[12:32] thought you know when you first

[12:33] read it on the agenda, it looks

[12:34] like we're raising a tax and so

[12:35] just some feedb

[12:38] ack for you to to have to make

[12:40] sure that people understand

[12:42] what what you're trying to do, I

[12:44] I think especially in a time

[12:46] when people are worried about

[12:48] how much we're spending on gas

[12:50] how much we're spending on cars

[12:52] just the inflation overall

[12:54] going up that I think we need to

[12:55] be real clear on that Mr

[12:55] chairir.

[13:00] when will take representative

[13:02] any comment to that if not no no

[13:04] worries the only part Mr

[13:06] Chairman and to the members is

[13:08] I can't recall I should have

[13:09] looked at that part

[13:12] at one point it did come to the

[13:13] department.

[13:14] and then it was during those

[13:17] times when general fund when

[13:19] the lean years that the

[13:19] change was made

[13:23] but at one point or several

[13:26] times it is where it used to

[13:27] flow to the department

[13:33] Very well thank you any other

[13:34] questions or comments related to

[13:35] this issue from the committee.

[13:39] if not I I have a couple of my

[13:40] own senator if you if you don't

[13:42] mind and I appreciate the

[13:43] distinction that the

[13:44] representative was trying to

[13:46] make with you in regards to how

[13:48] this is communicated I guess for

[13:49] for the broader public that may

[13:51] be listening at home and may

[13:52] look at this and say well geez

[13:54] tax distribution tax tax tax

[13:55] what does that mean are we gonna

[13:56] are we gonna see an increase and

[13:58] I think it it it is well stated

[14:00] and and well taken at least by

[14:02] me and understanding that

[14:03] again referencing that this is

[14:05] not a new tax right we're not

[14:05] trying to impose a new tax

[14:08] it's just simple a a a

[14:10] reformulation if you will of how

[14:13] the current system and how those

[14:14] monies are distributed and to

[14:16] where right because yesterday

[14:18] in in the session that we had

[14:19] with the department of

[14:21] transportation they made it

[14:23] clear that the general fund

[14:25] receives a bulk of this money at

[14:26] this point is that correct

[14:27] senator?

[14:30] oh Mr Chairman that is correct.

[14:32] OK and and and saying that's

[14:33] correct then we want to make

[14:36] sure that if we're if we're if

[14:38] the intent is to help the roads

[14:40] and to help transportation then

[14:41] understanding that based on

[14:42] the conversation yesterday that

[14:46] the general fund today is is is

[14:47] doing well that the state is

[14:48] doing well the general fund is

[14:49] receiving the money that it

[14:51] should and appropriately from

[14:52] the other sources that it hasn

[14:54] and so if we can then

[14:56] redistribute this money that

[14:57] once went to their to the road

[14:57] fund

[14:59] it would help the department

[15:01] immensely for the projects that

[15:02] they have and so that being said

[15:04] I can appreciate where you're

[15:06] going with this and I think this

[15:07] is a discussion that we had and

[15:10] we well embraced as a

[15:12] committee yesterday that we

[15:13] understand that we want to make

[15:14] sure that we are helping the

[15:15] department knowing that they are

[15:17] self funded primarily as a

[15:19] department themselves a

[15:21] follow up question to that rep

[15:22] senator excuse me is that

[15:26] is there a road condition or a

[15:29] project target once reached that

[15:32] would indicate the transfer as

[15:33] this as this bill is presented

[15:35] has done its work

[15:43] Mr Chairman no maybe someone

[15:44] from the department might be

[15:45] able to address that

[15:48] we have anyone from the

[15:49] department

[15:54] not I I I think maybe it it's

[15:55] definitely a technical question

[15:57] because at this point re

[15:58] recognizing the department is

[16:00] huge there's thousands of miles

[16:02] of roadway that they maintain in

[16:04] our state, I I think that the

[16:06] point I was trying to make and

[16:07] the question that was posed to

[16:09] you was that if if there's a

[16:09] target if there's a stretch of

[16:10] road if there's a a large

[16:12] project and I'll take one that's

[16:13] on top of my head right now and

[16:14] that's in the city of

[16:16] Albuquerque and that's that

[16:17] stretch right there

[16:20] what is it uhtmontgomery right

[16:23] on I-25 on Montgomery that big

[16:23] project right and that's that

[16:24] that

[16:27] had to have taken a chunk of of

[16:28] monies's from the department to

[16:29] make sure that that was done in

[16:30] a timely and efficient manner,

[16:32] right and so if there are

[16:33] projects like that across the

[16:34] state if we can begin to

[16:37] redirect monies this way with

[16:38] the intent that we can get

[16:39] larger projects like that done

[16:41] all across our state right in

[16:42] the rural parts of our state

[16:43] that we know where there are

[16:44] roads that are crumbling at this

[16:46] point if we can address those

[16:48] then that's a huge win for our

[16:49] state and so I I wanna to make

[16:50] sure that

[16:52] we can impress upon that through

[16:54] this piece of legislation that

[16:55] those are the types of of

[16:57] projects that we can help to

[16:58] effect and bring change to

[16:59] positively.

[17:03] Mister Chairman with that

[17:05] that project you know I don't

[17:06] know where they're at as far as

[17:09] the total amount but just to

[17:11] give you an example north of

[17:13] Espanola when they started with

[17:16] that that was the first was

[17:19] like at18 million and I think

[17:20] the project ended up at34

[17:22] million and and that's just what

[17:24] we have been seeing due to the

[17:25] many different

[17:27] oh

[17:29] variables that happened to to

[17:30] everyone

[17:33] within the especially the

[17:35] last57 years of high costs to

[17:39] to materials high cost to labor

[17:39] high cost to

[17:42] just doing

[17:45] any kind of construction work.

[17:51] understood ok those are my

[17:52] questions and if they didn't

[17:54] know no other questions from the

[17:55] committee.

[17:56] OK Senator Hamlint vice

[17:57] chairwomanhamlet

[18:02] Thank you Mr Chair and and

[18:04] senator mine isn't really a a

[18:06] question but more of a comment

[18:07] because I appreciate this you've

[18:08] been you've been really cha

[18:10] championing this for quite

[18:11] some time to

[18:14] really you know be kind of

[18:16] the leader in something that all

[18:18] of us are seeing in all of our

[18:19] communities in terms of roads

[18:21] being in disrepair and and being

[18:22] able to make sure that we fund

[18:24] that if we have this opportunity

[18:26] to do that I look forward to

[18:28] this discussion in during the

[18:30] legislative session because I

[18:32] think all of us can bring to the

[18:35] table stories of how there are

[18:36] roads in our communities that

[18:38] are in desperate need of repair

[18:40] and if this is a way to more

[18:41] efficiently get money to where

[18:42] those

[18:45] projects can can be repaired

[18:46] to where those roads can be

[18:47] repaired in our communities

[18:49] cannot have to worry about the

[18:50] wear and tear on their shocks

[18:52] and on their tires and the

[18:54] safety of their children then

[18:55] I think that this will be a good

[18:56] thing and I'm glad that you're

[18:58] bringing it here today so that

[18:59] we can kind of do a little

[19:01] workshop on this and and figure

[19:02] out what's the best way to

[19:04] target those messages so that we

[19:05] can get this past the finish

[19:06] line, so I appreciate that

[19:08] senator thank you so much thank

[19:10] you Mr chairir youceroman let's

[19:11] go topresentative Parahon.

[19:14] you and senator just a quick

[19:18] question senator it do you

[19:20] know why originally it was the

[19:21] fund was distributed the way

[19:22] that it was.

[19:26] you mean currently or you mean

[19:29] sorry, I mean

[19:32] yeah how it's currently being

[19:34] distributed versus your new

[19:38] proposal and maybe someone has

[19:39] the tenure with the department

[19:41] is so

[19:45] at one point this did flow to

[19:46] the department.

[19:50] and then it was those ears that

[19:51] we were very lean on budget.

[19:54] that probably this is not the

[19:56] only fund that was taken it was

[19:59] to transfer the funding to the

[19:59] general fund

[20:04] and then once it was placed

[20:07] there it hasn't gone back and

[20:07] that's

[20:11] you know should have done you

[20:13] know or maybe have had a a way

[20:15] of looking at that more like a

[20:16] sunset but it didn't happen

[20:21] ur n ed senator

[20:23] thank you any other questions or

[20:24] comments for the senator before

[20:25] Representative Duncan.

[20:28] thank you Mr chairir you know

[20:30] when we when we talk about this

[20:32] stuff any monies that we can get

[20:33] to the road department that just

[20:34] means more companies in Mexico

[20:36] are going to be working and I

[20:37] think that's an economic driver

[20:38] and and so I just wanted to

[20:40] state that it makes common sense

[20:43] to use any money or any tax that

[20:45] the state is taxing anything to

[20:46] do with automobiles to go back

[20:48] to the one thing that they and

[20:49] they have a common denominator

[20:50] and that's odes so thank you Mr

[20:52] chair thank you for the comments

[20:53] sir let's go topresentative

[20:53] Montoya.

[20:56] and thank you Mr chairir

[20:58] senator if we would we had a

[21:00] brief conversation about this

[21:04] yesterday in committee and

[21:06] I think it's pretty I think I

[21:07] think there's a lot of consensus

[21:10] this year that to finally get

[21:11] this across the finish line to

[21:12] to get the dollars back

[21:16] to where the dollars are

[21:18] supposed to be going anyway I

[21:19] I think it's really hard with

[21:20] the

[21:24] the year after year of you know

[21:26] record budgets that we've had to

[21:27] think that we need to keep on

[21:30] taking these dollars and putting

[21:32] them into the general fund when

[21:35] like you stated likely

[21:36] ended up there in the general

[21:38] funded lean years we haven't had

[21:39] lean years for a while but we

[21:40] are still not distributing those

[21:42] dollars to the to the road funds

[21:44] so look forward to to

[21:46] supporting this and and

[21:47] anything that you

[21:50] any help you need I think

[21:51] you're gonna get a lot of help

[21:51] from members on this committee.

[21:56] thank youpresentative. any other

[21:57] questions or comments from the

[21:57] committee

[22:00] as a reminder folks the

[22:03] analysis that are in the back of

[22:05] the pieces of proposed

[22:06] legislation again those are

[22:07] prepared by the legislative

[22:08] finance committeetee and our

[22:10] chief Ishmael is isiorres is

[22:12] more than willing to come up to

[22:13] the podium should we have any

[22:14] more

[22:17] financial detailed questions

[22:18] that we want to ask that maybe

[22:20] the sponsor can't can't answer

[22:22] and so that being said for also

[22:23] those people that are are

[22:26] listening at home these are

[22:28] all online and so the proposed

[22:29] legislation as well as the

[22:30] analysis are all online on the

[22:33] agenda so you just click it and

[22:33] it'll link it to everything

[22:34] that we're looking to here

[22:36] and you can have that imprinted

[22:38] at home as well and so that

[22:39] being said with no other

[22:41] further questions Senator we

[22:43] appreciate your presentation on

[22:43] that portion of

[22:46] of the proposed legislation that

[22:47] you have we can now skip to the

[22:48] next one.

[22:50] and so the next one is

[22:50] increasing

[22:53] the gasoline tax and special

[22:55] fuels excise tax discussion.

[23:17] Thank you all Mister Chairman.

[23:19] on this one

[23:24] I just want to mention again and

[23:25] as I mentioned at the beginning

[23:28] I think we really really need to

[23:30] look at this is not as I

[23:32] mentioned a Democratub it's a

[23:36] responsibility that we owe to

[23:39] why we're elected and this is

[23:39] one part that

[23:44] that is so important to our

[23:45] infrastructure to our business

[23:48] to our economic development but

[23:50] the part that also you know

[23:52] worries me a lot

[23:53] is so

[23:54] the more deficient

[23:57] and the more we have

[24:00] the more possibilities of

[24:04] liability to the state or having

[24:05] not the adequate bridges the

[24:08] adequate strife the adequate

[24:11] roads and also you know to our

[24:13] economic development that

[24:14] prohibits to

[24:18] be in a more positive to our

[24:20] state versus you know taking

[24:22] longer to travel or or having a

[24:24] different problems with

[24:26] different parts of the state

[24:27] with our road system

[24:32] and the gas tax this what this

[24:34] legislation would do is the gas

[24:37] tax goes from17 cents to 20

[24:37] cents a gallon

[24:40] and let me mention

[24:47] When I started in1995.

[24:51] the first thing that happened

[24:52] that year

[24:56] there was a repeal to the gas

[24:57] tax of 6 cents.

[24:58] we went backwards

[25:00] We have never made that up.

[25:04] you know and you can just look

[25:07] at all those six cents over ir2

[25:10] years you know if you multiply

[25:11] that by what he would have

[25:11] generated to the state

[25:15] and so we're not even to where

[25:17] we used to be because we had

[25:19] that repeal of those six cents

[25:19] the gas tax

[25:22] on this legislation will go

[25:24] from17 cents to 20 cents a

[25:25] gallon. The diesel tax

[25:29] would go from 21 cents to 25

[25:29] cents

[25:33] re cents on the gas and4 cents

[25:36] on the diesel. It races about57

[25:39] million a year and all of it

[25:39] would go to the roads.

[25:43] how long has it been the gas tax

[25:46] has not changed since1995, that

[25:47] is ir1 years.

[25:50] The diesel tax has not changed

[25:51] since 204, that is 22 years.

[25:55] and think of what a gallon of

[25:58] gas cost in1995.hink of what the

[26:01] road crew cost and prices went

[26:02] up. I wrote money stood

[26:07] Whaty did to the raid

[26:12] to buy what17 cents bought

[26:13] in1995

[26:15] it would need37 cents today.

[26:20] to buy what 21 cents bond in 2

[26:21] or4.

[26:25] it'll take37 cents today, Both

[26:27] rates have been have lost about

[26:30] half of their worth, but let me

[26:31] pause here for a second because

[26:33] you're seeing17 cents

[26:36] and that's not a true number

[26:39] either because Ot of the se7

[26:40] cents that you have the tax

[26:43] the department only gets

[26:45] approximately13 cents the other

[26:46] increments are to the

[26:49] municipalities which is fine.

[26:50] they also need it but just

[26:55] the department is not getting

[26:56] the se7 it's a approximately13

[27:10] this bill would win back a small

[27:12] part of that it does not get us

[27:13] to halfway.

[27:16] where we stand next door to our

[27:18] neighbors. New Mexico has the

[27:20] fourth lowest gas tax in the

[27:21] country.

[27:24] we are lower than Texas,

[27:26] Colorado, Arizona, Utah and

[27:28] Oklahoma all of them at 20 cents

[27:30] it would still rank us445th

[27:33] we will tie with Oklahoma

[27:34] we would take

[27:38] 2,577 of the gas tax

[27:42] for each lane mile of road.

[27:44] the average in the country

[27:49] is12,684, that is five times our

[27:49] rate.

[27:53] why we keep falling behind

[28:02] I have water here

[28:10] cars go further on a gallon

[28:12] than they used to

[28:16] so people drive more miles but

[28:17] buy less gas.

[28:18] We collect less

[28:22] at the same time asphalt steel

[28:23] labor and all costs more.

[28:28] less money and higher cost out

[28:29] that is the whole problem.

[28:49] who gets the money about447

[28:50] million goes to the state road

[28:51] fund.

[28:55] about 9 million goes straight to

[28:55] the city and county road fun.

[29:00] but it costs the driver say you

[29:01] buy12 gallons a week.

[29:05] 3 cents a gallon is36 cents a

[29:06] week.

[29:09] what is under $20 a year.

[29:12] less than one tank it is under

[29:13] 20 a year

[29:16] badd roads cost them more in

[29:17] repairs.

[29:23] one blown tire, one bad road

[29:23] costs more than that.

[29:25] It is enough to fix a problem

[29:30] no but it it closes about 1/5 of

[29:34] the gap. It is the start and it

[29:35] is overdue.

[29:35] re cents

[29:38] this road carries our kids

[29:42] our economic development our

[29:43] crops

[29:44] and our freight

[29:46] they are worth

[29:47] three cents

[29:52] and with that all Mister

[29:55] Chairman and the members I'll

[29:55] yield at this time for any

[29:57] questions or any thoughts

[30:00] very good thank you very much

[30:02] senator let's go to vice

[30:04] chairmanhamlin with the first

[30:06] question. Thank you Mr Chair and

[30:08] and Senator I you know we we all

[30:10] I think recognize just how

[30:11] important it is that our roads

[30:12] get improved and whatever

[30:15] revenue sources we can get to

[30:17] target that and be really

[30:19] genuinely directed towards

[30:21] those repairs I think is what

[30:23] all of our intent is. I'm just

[30:25] wondering senator is this the

[30:26] right time to do this when we

[30:28] see gas prices go up, diesel is

[30:29] at an all time high

[30:32] I think the challenge will be

[30:34] to justify this when people are

[30:35] having a really hard time my car

[30:37] was55 dollars to fill up for a

[30:40] thir tank13 gallon tank of gas

[30:41] to drive all the way up here

[30:43] from Las Cruces and so I I

[30:43] wonder

[30:47] given given that people are

[30:49] feeling it right now in their

[30:50] their pocketbooks is this

[30:52] something to to how can you

[30:53] justify this?

[30:56] chairman no no

[30:58] madam vice chair

[31:02] you bring a a very good point

[31:04] but

[31:05] on my part

[31:10] it's never the right time

[31:13] I mean we should have done this

[31:14] 21 years ago we should have done

[31:17] it1f years ago and there's

[31:19] always something that goes into

[31:21] why it's not the right time and

[31:24] I do realize what's happening

[31:26] today on on the other hand I

[31:27] thought that

[31:30] the comment that was made also

[31:32] by senator Munoz yesterday

[31:37] saying the this is the first

[31:39] time that he have seen I-40 with

[31:40] fewer trucks

[31:44] so who's gonna be paying more

[31:45] when we don't receive the

[31:46] groceries we don't receive

[31:47] everything else

[31:50] and you know there again you

[31:51] know it goes to

[31:54] infrastructure and to the many

[31:56] parts of it but I won't disagree

[31:59] with you but again you know I

[31:59] have seen that

[32:02] it it was always it's that it

[32:03] was never the right time.

[32:06] and this is very incremental,

[32:07] very small.

[32:09] you know the state of Wyommen

[32:10] usually at times that they have

[32:12] done that it's on steps of10

[32:15] cents right away some states

[32:15] even higher

[32:18] but for us you know just

[32:19] bringing in a closing that gap

[32:19] of

[32:22] you know more you know

[32:24] and and it's needed

[32:30] Thank you, Mr chair and thank

[32:31] you senator, I don't disagree

[32:33] with you at all, Bobby, I I

[32:34] think it's senator, I think it's

[32:37] it's certainly something that

[32:38] you know is there ever going to

[32:39] be a right time I think the

[32:40] challenge for you when you're

[32:43] presenting this bill is really

[32:45] addressing those issues because

[32:47] every single person is going to

[32:48] think about how much they've

[32:49] just had to spend on their gas

[32:52] tank and filling up their gas so

[32:53] I think that that's just going

[32:54] to be the challenge for you is

[32:55] really nailing that and

[32:56] articulating just the the

[32:57] importance and how that does

[32:58] trick

[33:00] le down you know our

[33:02] colleague Senator Munoz I talked

[33:04] with him yesterday and he was in

[33:06] arizona last week and diesel was

[33:10] at like 6 dollars30 cents and

[33:12] and I think gas was over4

[33:14] dollars and so you know all of

[33:15] us are experiencing this in some

[33:16] capacity or another, so I think

[33:18] just the challenge for you

[33:20] senators like how to nail that

[33:22] when I think every single person

[33:24] is is kind of nodding their head

[33:25] or understanding how

[33:28] is this the right time right now

[33:31] and it's it's gonna be your

[33:34] skill and superpower to to

[33:35] target that to really drive that

[33:38] home. no mam chairman and madam

[33:39] chair of just to share with you

[33:44] when in 9596 when that

[33:45] repeal of sixth sense went

[33:45] through.

[33:49] and you know we have one part

[33:50] our part

[33:55] and industry went up11 cents

[33:56] like the next five days after

[33:57] that.

[34:00] and that's one part that we

[34:01] can't control, I mean that's a

[34:02] different level of of you know

[34:05] how that los but there is

[34:09] you know again you know here we

[34:09] did

[34:12] take ix cents off and

[34:13] immediately we saw11 cents go up

[34:14] and

[34:18] there was like almost nothing

[34:19] that we could do about it the

[34:19] only thing we did is we hurt

[34:20] ourselves

[34:22] you know and we have since then

[34:25] you know all those years that we

[34:25] have not

[34:28] captured that revenue and

[34:29] and it shows

[34:34] you know at one presentation I

[34:35] hope that that's not true

[34:36] anymore, but we had were

[34:39] school buses actually could not

[34:39] cross certain bridges

[34:43] you know and they were bringing

[34:44] the students with feeder rods

[34:47] you know up to that point

[34:48] because bridges were not safe I

[34:50] think we're out of that you know

[34:52] but just a few years ago we

[34:53] were at that point

[34:57] that's all Mister chairir thank

[34:58] you thank you senator

[35:00] thank you vice chairman let's go

[35:01] to Representative Montoya.

[35:06] thank you Mr Chair uhsenator

[35:08] once again I know this has

[35:09] been a long crusade for you to

[35:10] try and get our roads

[35:11] fixed

[35:13] I I would

[35:18] agree to some to some

[35:20] degree with with senator Hamblin

[35:21] but I would I would take it a

[35:21] different route which is

[35:24] when we've been experiencing

[35:29] these massive budget

[35:34] overages we've been we've been

[35:35] receiving a lot of money into

[35:35] the state coffers

[35:37] over the last five years

[35:40] and what I've seen during that

[35:41] time is

[35:44] a bunch of programs that we've

[35:47] created and a bunch of trust

[35:47] funds

[35:49] that we've created

[35:51] to fund

[35:54] this new project, this new

[35:56] program, and we've got a

[35:57] couple of

[35:59] trust funds that are

[36:02] funded in the tens of billions

[36:03] now.

[36:09] I agree I don't think this is

[36:10] the right time to raise taxes

[36:12] for multiple reasons but one

[36:15] being the the surpluses that

[36:16] we've been seeing in the last

[36:17] several years

[36:19] including this year we're going

[36:19] to see it again

[36:22] just wondering if you've

[36:23] considered that route of

[36:26] creating a a highway trust fund

[36:30] that dollars go into it and then

[36:31] a certain amount of money comes

[36:32] out of it

[36:38] you don't do it for this which

[36:39] is really needed

[36:40] uhm I can't hardly wait to see

[36:44] how this legislatures decides to

[36:47] spend3 billion dollars that is

[36:47] not recurring

[36:52] this session we'll we'll see all

[36:54] kinds of things that affect very

[36:56] very very few people across New

[36:57] Mexico where roads and

[36:58] infrastructure affects everyone

[37:01] I I would just suggest

[37:06] a new tax right now for the

[37:08] reasons that Senatorhamlin

[37:10] mentioned and then also for the

[37:13] the fact that we are that that

[37:17] state government is not lacking

[37:19] for money and hasn't lacked for

[37:20] money the last five or six years

[37:24] I would suggest a different

[37:26] route and I'd like to see the

[37:27] roads get that money before we

[37:30] before whatever it is we decide

[37:31] to fund

[37:35] come come the session I don't

[37:35] know what your thoughts are on

[37:36] that

[37:39] oh Mr chairman and vice chair

[37:39] and members so

[37:42] I'm open to whatever works

[37:46] d d ition al revenue to the

[37:47] department.

[37:50] and that is one very strong

[37:51] point that we

[37:56] Mr Chair once again and senator

[37:58] if that's something that that

[37:59] you're looking for some help

[38:01] with wouldn't mind helping

[38:02] you with that cause once again

[38:03] that's that's money that's

[38:03] sitting there that

[38:05] for whatever reason we as

[38:06] government

[38:07] can't not spend

[38:08] let's spend it on roads

[38:12] Thank you Mr chairir. very well

[38:14] thank you thank youpresentative.

[38:15] any other questions or comments

[38:16] from this committee?

[38:19] if not senator I I have a couple

[38:20] and maybe I don't know if it's a

[38:21] question but

[38:27] just just just previous to this

[38:28] presentation you talked about

[38:30] amending the motor vehiclecle

[38:31] excise tax distribution and it

[38:31] seems that

[38:36] that being a a no raising no new

[38:38] taxes discussion right and I

[38:40] think is generally appreciated

[38:42] and embraced by by people around

[38:44] this around this table that that

[38:47] brings in a h that if we made

[38:48] that change that would bring

[38:50] in153 million dollars per year

[38:53] of of monies and I'll say new

[38:55] money loosely to the department

[38:58] of Transportation which in in my

[39:00] mind completely absorbs the

[39:01] potential um57 million dollars

[39:04] that might be raised by

[39:05] increasing

[39:07] the taxes

[39:09] as as as I read the analysis

[39:14] is might that be a better

[39:16] alternative given the

[39:18] discussion that was had just now

[39:20] with a couple of comments that

[39:22] were received that maybe we just

[39:23] look at the redistribution of

[39:26] how we provide the excise

[39:28] taxes not to the general fund

[39:29] but to the road fund or to the

[39:32] department of transportation and

[39:34] you you you you make that57

[39:36] million plus another 90 some

[39:37] million on top of that

[39:39] do you have any comments towards

[39:40] that?

[39:44] Mister chairman no

[39:46] vice chair these are all

[39:47] excellent.

[39:50] excellent thoughts and excellent

[39:51] oath again you know we can put

[39:53] our minds together and you know

[39:53] when we feel that

[39:55] is accepted by

[39:59] the overall everyone that's more

[39:59] comfortable with and

[40:02] the important part is the

[40:03] objective is just to

[40:04] work with a

[40:09] to what it would bring recurring

[40:09] revenue to the department.

[40:14] and again senator with all

[40:15] due respect this is not an

[40:17] intent for me to try to walk you

[40:18] away from this piece of

[40:19] legislation. I'm just I'm trying

[40:21] to look at just the the piece of

[40:22] legislation you talked about

[40:24] before and how you know it

[40:27] raises again that um153 million

[40:30] dollars per year of again new

[40:31] money that once went to the

[40:32] general fund but then redirected

[40:34] to the to the road fund and then

[40:36] that way you don't have to in

[40:38] this case raise a tax and

[40:40] Mister Charman one part that

[40:41] always so amazes me is so

[40:44] every district

[40:48] every legislator looks at a if

[40:50] you want to call it look at

[40:51] themselves and they understand

[40:52] the needs of of their district

[40:58] and in my part I have a I have

[41:00] been proposing legislation for

[41:01] many years

[41:03] and it never has hurt my

[41:04] election.

[41:08] you know and and I think to

[41:10] as I mentioned the

[41:12] responsibility part to your

[41:13] constituents

[41:14] you know they also want an

[41:16] answer you know why isn't this

[41:18] road fixed or why isn't this

[41:19] traffic light

[41:22] and I think this also shows

[41:23] so

[41:24] we're trying you know but

[41:28] you know it's not something that

[41:30] by doing it that he would hurt

[41:31] you it's I I see it positive

[41:33] you know it's so

[41:36] anything to increase the

[41:37] possibilities of making

[41:39] every street every road safer.

[41:45] and and and finally senator

[41:48] it takes a lot of courage for

[41:49] for you to being a piece of

[41:50] legislation legislation like

[41:52] this at a time like this and and

[41:53] again you're not doing it for

[41:55] yourself you're not doing it

[41:56] because it's a Democrat or

[41:58] Republican matter right you're

[42:00] doing it for the for the greater

[42:01] good of the state and the roads

[42:02] that we all utilize on a daily

[42:04] basis and so I can appreciate

[42:05] that and this this couldn't have

[42:08] been in an easy discussion to

[42:09] want to engage in this morning

[42:10] but nonetheless you're bringing

[42:11] this and and that's what I think

[42:12] this is this is

[42:15] the process that I'd I I can I'm

[42:18] trying to engage in now so that

[42:19] we can know what's coming down

[42:20] the pipe so that we can begin to

[42:22] in this case if if you say well

[42:24] let's collaborate let's let's

[42:26] gather some ideas fantastic you

[42:28] have4 months before our ours

[42:30] session begins right and so we

[42:32] can begin to to to collaborate

[42:34] in those ways at the end of

[42:36] the day again this the intent

[42:37] of this committee at this point

[42:39] is simply just to garner ideas

[42:40] and again these are not

[42:43] revenue spending initiatives

[42:45] these are in many cases

[42:46] generating revenue generating

[42:50] initiatives and so I

[42:51] appreciate that bless you

[42:54] and and as we move forward

[42:56] our staff is here to help you

[42:58] and and we will continue to

[43:00] develop your ideas and again the

[43:02] the intent is not to persuade

[43:04] you to do something or another

[43:05] the intent of this is to get

[43:06] people thinking about what's

[43:08] gonna be discussed more in

[43:10] detail and then its essentially

[43:12] voted upon as you move into the

[43:14] next legislative session and so

[43:15] with that senator if you have

[43:17] any final comments welcome to to

[43:17] make those if not

[43:19] happy

[43:21] Mister Chairman no members

[43:21] though

[43:24] thank you first of all you know

[43:25] for the opportunity to present

[43:26] this

[43:28] and we just need to have that

[43:30] open

[43:33] dialogue you know keep going and

[43:34] you know just everyone to where

[43:38] we can work together and I am

[43:40] open to suggestions and I am

[43:41] open to trying to

[43:43] different ways that

[43:45] that we can work with to

[43:48] again you know just to bring

[43:52] back that needed part that is

[43:53] needed so bad you know by the

[43:53] department

[43:54] and

[43:58] if each one of you was to take a

[43:59] site visit

[44:02] we get the proper name that they

[44:05] use but where they warehouse or

[44:08] their equipment their snowplows

[44:09] trucks and everything they're in

[44:10] that shape

[44:14] you know a very sad and you know

[44:16] yet we expect them to work and

[44:18] we expect him to do the work

[44:20] that's needed when we do have a

[44:24] a big snowfall or what we have

[44:25] and to have proper equipment

[44:25] for that

[44:28] and I can take anyone to any

[44:29] of the

[44:30] of those so

[44:33] you know warehouses that they

[44:33] have with the equipment

[44:34] and

[44:38] so the point is so

[44:40] funding is needed for the

[44:41] department.

[44:42] thank you

[44:45] thank you senator appreciate

[44:46] your time this morning and

[44:47] you're welcome to sit up here

[44:48] and join us for the rest of the

[44:49] meeting but again thank you for

[44:50] the presentation this morning.

[44:52] thank you to all of you thank

[44:56] you let's move on our agenda to

[44:59] the next one which is senator

[44:59] sharer will be presenting this

[45:02] on behalf of senator Joshua

[45:04] Sanchez who could not be here

[45:05] this morning

[45:05] and

[45:10] Senator Sher will be talking us

[45:12] through providing a groce

[45:14] receipts tax deduction for dyed

[45:15] diesel.

[45:20] And there's no greater voice

[45:22] fory diesel in the state than

[45:23] senatorhi.

[45:32] OK sure thing

[45:44] me too I think Mrir all of us

[45:45] would agree on that one

[45:48] that that's bipartisan that

[45:51] that Pam andizzie are are the

[45:52] brains behind a lot of the crazy

[45:53] ideas that we come up with

[45:58] No no no no no

[46:01] lo a ' s yours sir whenever

[46:01] you're ready.

[46:08] thank you Mr chairir so first

[46:10] this is a a fairly simple bill

[46:12] as you can see it's really

[46:14] one page if you take out all of

[46:16] the blank spaces on it and it's

[46:18] a repeal and replace that's

[46:20] that's what it really does. so

[46:21] it repeals the grocery receipts

[46:24] tax credit and replaces it with

[46:26] a grocery receipts tax deduction

[46:27] on dyed fuels and

[46:29] so

[46:34] really the way I I look at this

[46:36] is this is what I would refer to

[46:40] as a peta factor bill so pITA

[46:41] that's peti factor that's pain

[46:45] in the rear factor and so the

[46:47] way it works right now it's a

[46:48] it's a relatively high peta

[46:51] factor on the taxpayer and this

[46:52] would make it a low peta factor

[46:53] on the taxpayer.

[46:56] and of course for those that

[46:58] in the world that don't

[47:00] understand the die diesel it's

[47:02] really for offroad use so

[47:04] typically agriculture but it

[47:05] could be for anything that's not

[47:06] on the road so if you've got a

[47:08] piece of construction equipment

[47:09] somewhere that's using diesel

[47:10] you could use the dyed diesel

[47:13] there as well and why it's

[47:15] because it's not on the road

[47:16] therefore it's not paying the

[47:17] road tax cause it didn't use the

[47:18] road.

[47:19] and so that's

[47:23] that's really the whole

[47:23] idea of

[47:26] behind it being different

[47:28] than what goes in the in the

[47:30] your truck that's going down the

[47:31] road.

[47:36] on the analysis here that

[47:38] that isn't so eloquently did and

[47:39] so I have to challenge him on a

[47:42] couple of things here so on

[47:44] page two of the analysis he

[47:47] talks about number 2 the

[47:48] theory of the change color. does

[47:50] it identify the taxpayer

[47:52] behavior that's intended to

[47:53] influence and that's really

[47:54] where I would say

[47:57] it's just a peta factor thing.

[47:59] If I have to spend an hour doing

[48:01] something or3 minutes doing

[48:02] something well why are you gonna

[48:04] make me spend an hour doing it

[48:06] so let's just let the

[48:08] taxpayer do it as quickly and

[48:09] simply as possible.

[48:11] so I think that's what this is

[48:12] is really about. Another

[48:14] question here is does the

[48:16] proposal estimate the impact on

[48:18] the general fund. Well further

[48:20] up on that list it says the

[48:22] fiscal impact report scored at

[48:23] $6 million.

[48:26] a year for general fund and4

[48:27] million to local governments.

[48:30] so yeah we do know what it's

[48:32] gonna cost, OK? but there

[48:33] clearly is

[48:35] let me read something

[48:38] something else that I had here

[48:40] now I've eaten

[48:44] there clearly is

[48:46] a

[48:51] confusion on what all of this

[48:52] might mean so I think that

[48:54] there's that's that's part of

[48:56] the peti factor thing because

[48:58] TRD is confused the the the

[49:00] taxpayers are confused other

[49:01] people are trying to figure this

[49:02] out just simply trying to to

[49:04] make it so that it all makes

[49:05] sense to everybody.

[49:07] and so that's what it does

[49:09] and so

[49:15] barring any real major 2%

[49:16] grocery receipts tax tax reform

[49:18] bill that would actually fix all

[49:20] of our taxes I think that

[49:22] this is a a a wise use of just

[49:24] trying to make it easier for the

[49:25] taxpayer to figure out how to

[49:25] pay the

[49:35] Senator share you impressed us

[49:35] all

[49:36] you didn't ask for Pam's help at

[49:37] all

[49:38] good

[49:44] OK. any questions for the

[49:45] senator let's start with

[49:45] Representative Duncan.

[49:48] thank you Mr chairir.

[49:52] quick question for you and and

[49:54] um'm think I know the answer.

[49:56] So I get in my tractor, I drive

[49:58] down the gas station from my

[49:59] farms about

[49:59] two minutes.

[50:02] so I get out there and fill up

[50:04] my tractor this week. next week

[50:06] you're done fill it up again are

[50:08] we talking about diesil that's

[50:09] delivered to my farm or are we

[50:10] talking about diesel that I can

[50:12] just go buy and then I keep the

[50:13] receipt at the end of the year

[50:17] actually with the dyed diesel

[50:18] the way it's supposed to be that

[50:20] tractor's not supposed to be on

[50:21] a public road using the dyed

[50:21] diesel.

[50:26] I know you're doing it anywhere

[50:30] so you take it in your pickup

[50:32] truck and you fill up the cans

[50:33] and you drive back to your

[50:33] tractor.

[50:36] Miss chair that sounds like a

[50:38] really good idea in theory, but

[50:40] when you're 67 years old and

[50:41] diesel can weighs

[50:44] 40 pounds that's not gonna

[50:46] happen very much and a lot of

[50:47] these farmers are the same age

[50:50] as I am or older so I guess my

[50:52] question is I have to have that

[50:54] delivered is that what you're

[50:55] saying I have to have my own

[50:55] tank there

[50:57] umm chairir that's

[51:01] the idea behind the the diesel

[51:03] is that it wasn't on the roads.

[51:06] Does it happen? Yes. Is the

[51:07] state cop gonna just drive past

[51:09] you probably ok because

[51:11] we're in New Mexico

[51:14] right? but the whole idea is

[51:17] that this is really for ag use

[51:17] or off

[51:21] offhigway use of whatever the

[51:22] the piece of equipment might be

[51:26] and that's that's the idea

[51:27] they're not using the roads

[51:28] therefore they don't have to pay

[51:29] the road tax.

[51:32] I understand the reality. I

[51:33] think anybody that doesn't live

[51:34] inside of Albuquerque

[51:34] understands the reality

[51:41] Thank Mr Cha but senator on that

[51:43] what would be my mechanism then

[51:45] to be able to get this tax

[51:46] credit at the end of the year

[51:48] amm I going to keep the receipt

[51:50] I get from the gas station or do

[51:51] I have to have it delivered to

[51:52] my farm? What what what do we

[51:54] need to do there? So this is

[51:56] imposed on the on the seller so

[51:57] you don't have to do anything as

[51:58] the farmer

[52:02] good. Second thing to that Mr

[52:04] chairir and it's only a4

[52:06] million dollars hit but I always

[52:07] think about what it does to

[52:09] municipalities and the GRT that

[52:09] they're going to be hit with

[52:12] and that's my concern with this

[52:14] when we when we rode them so

[52:16] thank you som chair please

[52:17] ignore the big guy in the back

[52:17] that's shaking his head no.

[52:31] re representative did you have a

[52:34] question to that? No I I just

[52:35] that I just wanted to make that

[52:36] statement. I worry about

[52:39] whenever we we get this I also

[52:42] miser also understand dye diesel

[52:43] has to be delivered you can't

[52:44] get it from a gas station so

[52:45] thank you

[52:48] thank youpresentative

[52:50] so Mr chairir I did I did make

[52:51] an error that's why Pam is here

[52:51] to make sure that I'm

[52:52] that I'm

[52:57] trying to be honest with you

[53:00] so I misread what it what it is

[53:02] so the the impact of the general

[53:04] fund on page one of of this

[53:08] analysis is uh16.8 million to 26

[53:09] million

[53:11] or to the general fund 9.6

[53:15] to1f million to the local

[53:19] municipalities. so that's

[53:21] that's the real impact and of

[53:22] course the five year impact is

[53:23] lifetime big

[53:26] appreciate you better correct

[53:28] that and make sure that

[53:29] otherwise Pam was gonna kick me

[53:30] again.ppreciate the

[53:32] clarification. let's go to vice

[53:33] chairman Hamlin and then we'll

[53:34] go to senator wirth and all of

[53:36] us thank you Mr Chair all of us

[53:37] who know Pam know that she's not

[53:39] really kicking senator sharer

[53:42] under the table but it is a

[53:43] lovely dynamic to always watch

[53:45] to watch the two of you

[53:46] mine's more of of a comment

[53:48] senator and and we've had this

[53:50] bill before our committee in the

[53:52] senate a couple of times in my

[53:53] district I've got a lot of

[53:54] farmers and

[53:57] and they and and I have

[53:58] pulled up behind a trail a

[54:00] tractor on the road on highway

[54:01] 28 going through the the

[54:02] beautiful pecan orchards that we

[54:05] have and so I think with this

[54:07] the the importance will be to

[54:09] get the word out about that for

[54:10] them so that they understand

[54:13] that but also I I like with

[54:14] my colleaguepresentative Duncan

[54:17] is as we know anytime there's a

[54:18] conversation about GRTs and

[54:21] removing GRTs those communities

[54:23] that benefit from that

[54:23] start to panic a little bit

[54:26] and and understandably so

[54:28] because they're looking at all

[54:29] of a sudden a revenue stream

[54:31] that they were expecting that is

[54:32] not going to be coming in

[54:34] anymore so my my comment more

[54:36] is I I just look forward to more

[54:38] conversation about it because I

[54:40] see the value of it, but I also

[54:41] see the concern about it and so

[54:43] I I'm hoping that there is a way

[54:45] to kind of get there to where we

[54:47] can we can implement this to

[54:48] where the communities that

[54:49] benefit from that GRt don't

[54:51] feel it

[54:55] in a in a really bad way and I'm

[54:57] looking at our TRD folks and and

[54:59] and uhizzy you know because I do

[55:00] think that there is a

[55:02] possibility it's just you

[55:03] know having those conversations

[55:04] to see how we get there because

[55:05] I know that people in my

[55:07] district will certainly

[55:08] certainly appreciate it thank

[55:10] you Mr chair thank you Viceruman

[55:12] let's go to Senatorwirth thank

[55:13] you Mr Chair.

[55:14] So I just want to understand I

[55:15] do I also remember this film

[55:16] lots of discussion about this

[55:17] bill

[55:20] so this past though right we did

[55:21] some kind of die diesel

[55:24] I'm looking at the sheet here

[55:26] looks like 2024 it was part of

[55:28] the om of this bill and I guess

[55:29] I want to understand

[55:32] what did we pass? what are we

[55:33] changing and why do we need to

[55:33] change it

[55:36] uhmir senator a couple of years

[55:38] ago in the tax package the

[55:40] credit was passed for dieteil

[55:42] for agricultural purposes and

[55:43] that's what's being repealed in

[55:46] this bill and re and replaced

[55:48] with the deduction and the

[55:50] credit is discussed in in the

[55:52] analysis of the proposal

[55:52] analysis and talks about how

[55:54] it's limited to agricultural

[55:55] use. it has a10 million dollars

[55:56] cap which is why it was

[55:58] limited to $6 million hit to the

[56:00] general fund4 million dollars to

[56:02] the locals because it had that10

[56:03] million dollar cap and

[56:03] those will go away

[56:06] because with the deduction you

[56:07] can't have it's

[56:10] near I can't and I can't see

[56:12] how a cat can be administered

[56:13] with a deduction because they're

[56:13] just

[56:16] claimed differently deductions

[56:17] are extremely difficult to to

[56:18] watch ac. I think the only way

[56:20] you could do it is by auditing

[56:21] taxpayers and don't think

[56:21] anybody wants that

[56:24] so and I guess Mr chair does it

[56:26] make sense to make this shift

[56:28] mean why would we go away from a

[56:32] agricultural use with a cap with

[56:33] a set hit

[56:37] to something that goes from you

[56:39] know for local governments iss

[56:40] rep Duncan said I mean this is

[56:42] going from4 million to15 million

[56:43] dollar

[56:44] and I just what what's the

[56:47] give me the thinking between

[56:49] expanding it beyond agriculture

[56:50] which I think is what it does is

[56:53] now all off road, correct on top

[56:54] of agriculture so Mister Chair

[56:56] Senator, yes

[57:00] but again if we're trying to

[57:01] build the things in New Mexico

[57:04] if we're actually trying to

[57:06] create an economy and and make

[57:08] things happen. Well those pieces

[57:09] of equipment that are digging

[57:10] big holes in the ground or those

[57:12] pieces of equipment that are

[57:14] flattening the ground or

[57:16] whatever would then be

[57:17] included and therefore

[57:17] hopefully

[57:23] created a a longer lasting

[57:24] stronger economy. Today our

[57:26] economy is kind of limited oil

[57:27] and gas federal government

[57:29] healthcare mean that

[57:32] overs our economy so can we can

[57:33] we do

[57:37] And Mr Chan, would this apply to

[57:38] recreational offroad vehicles

[57:39] that use diesel.

[57:43] I

[57:46] any vehicle

[57:50] any any die diesel purchase.

[57:54] and so I guess just to

[57:55] understand it so if I've got

[57:56] umm hauling

[58:00] four wheelers that use diesel

[58:02] right now can I purchase die

[58:04] diesel or would this change the

[58:06] right now I paying $6 for diesel

[58:07] and this would

[58:10] w itch ing over to die diesel I

[58:11] guess that

[58:14] off road vehicles currently are

[58:15] they able to use ye diesel?

[58:18] that's unfortunately out of my

[58:19] expertise. do we have anybody

[58:19] who

[58:22] lin s islin still here do you

[58:23] know that the answer

[58:27] the secretary here Izzie's here

[58:34] we have the off road vehiclecle

[58:36] expert Ismaelorris and and

[58:38] and

[58:41] I don't know if you want yeah

[58:42] happy to do that mis chair and

[58:43] senator wirth they are

[58:46] interchangeable so if you are

[58:48] currently on off-road vehicle

[58:50] or user you know there's other

[58:52] uses of dye diesel than just

[58:54] offroad vehicles you can use

[58:56] undyed diesel as well and so

[58:58] currently the unda diesel the

[59:00] road the diesel used for for

[59:03] roads has special fuels excise

[59:05] tax that's a set rate as we were

[59:06] just discussing with Senator

[59:07] Gonzalez and so

[59:09] as the price rises of diesel as

[59:12] you mentioned $6 you know the

[59:13] tax doesn't rise on the undai

[59:15] diesel but because die diesel

[59:15] has a GRT on it

[59:17] which is a percent of the value

[59:21] you you actually have a higher

[59:22] there are certain prices where

[59:24] you have a higher tax on the dye

[59:25] diesel than the non dye diesel

[59:27] but those offroad vehicles could

[59:28] always just use the undy diesel

[59:30] to continue running if it's a

[59:31] lower price

[59:36] thanks and thanks Mr Chair. just

[59:37] one more question I remember

[59:40] Pam you had huge heartburn about

[59:41] this bill when we passed it and

[59:44] and it working you know the

[59:46] existing so switching over from

[59:48] the credit to the deduction. I

[59:49] mean it sounds like from a

[59:50] policy standpoint that's cleaner

[59:51] to

[59:54] implement I just get your

[59:56] thoughts on that it in regard

[59:58] to the cap if you want to cap it

[59:59] you really need to make it a

[1:00:00] credit but it it is harder to

[1:00:02] administer it's hard for

[1:00:04] compliance it's it's more

[1:00:06] cumbersome on both for tax and

[1:00:08] rep and for the taxpayer, but if

[1:00:09] you want a cap

[1:00:11] you you I think you have to do

[1:00:11] credit.

[1:00:12] thank you Mrir

[1:00:16] thank you senatororth great

[1:00:17] questions. let's go to

[1:00:17] Representative Monto

[1:00:22] thank you Mr Chair senator

[1:00:25] I actually like the discussions

[1:00:27] we've had in this committee the

[1:00:27] last two days.

[1:00:29] seems to be

[1:00:32] that a lot of what we're talking

[1:00:35] about is truth truth in

[1:00:38] government truth and taxation

[1:00:39] it just seems like

[1:00:42] almost in every category of

[1:00:43] taxation

[1:00:43] in this state

[1:00:46] we have some peculiarity

[1:00:50] where a certain portion of this

[1:00:51] tax goes to the general fund

[1:00:52] even though it's not related to

[1:00:53] the general fund

[1:00:56] so I think in just

[1:00:59] from a

[1:01:02] purityian government

[1:01:04] logic

[1:01:07] standpoint I like the idea of

[1:01:11] if it's if this is not

[1:01:14] a fuel that's being used on our

[1:01:15] highway

[1:01:18] shoulduld be should be taxed

[1:01:19] that way

[1:01:22] so I I I like the idea of making

[1:01:23] a cleaner

[1:01:24] once again

[1:01:26] because we got here

[1:01:28] it's gonna be hard

[1:01:32] because of as mentioned the

[1:01:34] the local municipalities just

[1:01:35] seems like every time we fix

[1:01:35] something

[1:01:38] they're the ones that take the

[1:01:39] biggest brunt of it state

[1:01:39] government can take a bigger

[1:01:43] hit and it doesn't matter as

[1:01:45] much but the local government so

[1:01:48] I I I want to see this going

[1:01:50] forward how if if we can make it

[1:01:51] happen but I think it's a lot

[1:01:52] cleaner than we're going to tax

[1:01:53] you and then we're going to give

[1:01:54] you something back through a

[1:01:55] credit

[1:01:57] and also it

[1:02:00] the farm equipment is not the

[1:02:01] only thing that

[1:02:03] is not you know, no backhoe

[1:02:05] should be

[1:02:09] you know I I've seen backho's

[1:02:09] you know tram on the road

[1:02:15] you know a short distance but

[1:02:16] generally they're not not on the

[1:02:17] road they're they're being

[1:02:20] hauled and and it doesn't make

[1:02:22] sense that we would tax

[1:02:23] somebody that's doing excavation

[1:02:26] or running a greater you know

[1:02:27] you're not running a grader on a

[1:02:27] on the highway

[1:02:31] so I I I like I like the concept

[1:02:31] but

[1:02:34] it it always seems like the the

[1:02:36] the weight of something like

[1:02:37] this to make it

[1:02:38] make more sense is always

[1:02:39] harder than it would seem

[1:02:42] just like your 2%

[1:02:46] across the board GRT seems

[1:02:47] really simple.

[1:02:50] rilliant ok since I didn't say

[1:02:53] that but someone did

[1:02:56] thank you Mr chairir.

[1:02:59] thank youpresentative questions

[1:02:59] or comments

[1:03:02] if not I I have a couple if you

[1:03:03] don't mind

[1:03:03] yes sir

[1:03:09] so the secretary if she wants

[1:03:10] can explain some of the

[1:03:13] technical issues which may

[1:03:14] contradict not contradict but

[1:03:16] contradict my purpose not

[1:03:17] contradict anything else I don't

[1:03:17] think but

[1:03:20] but just to be fair so we've

[1:03:21] got honesty in what we're doing

[1:03:22] here

[1:03:25] if you don't mind sure no

[1:03:26] secretary you're welcome thank

[1:03:28] you senatorch Mr Chair and

[1:03:31] members I I think it's it's

[1:03:32] been discussed pretty well, I

[1:03:33] think the part that I could try

[1:03:34] to add and clarify for the

[1:03:36] committee is that GRT

[1:03:39] doesn't really work well with

[1:03:41] credits you know the personal

[1:03:42] income tax or the corporate

[1:03:44] income tax are a really good

[1:03:46] vehicle for credits because you

[1:03:48] file once a year you claim your

[1:03:50] credit once a year it's the the

[1:03:51] credit claiming process is more

[1:03:52] burdensome for both the taxpayer

[1:03:54] and the department, but you do

[1:03:56] it once a year GRT usually gets

[1:03:58] paid every month and so what we

[1:04:00] found is there are about3 new

[1:04:01] GRT credits that have been

[1:04:02] enacted in recent years there's

[1:04:04] this this one for ye diesel and

[1:04:06] then there were two related to

[1:04:07] the calfs canyon and her

[1:04:07] r m it ' s eak fires

[1:04:10] and none of them have been used

[1:04:12] very extensively by taxpayers

[1:04:13] like in the latest tax

[1:04:15] expenditure report we had to

[1:04:18] asterisk out the number of

[1:04:19] claims and the amount claimed

[1:04:20] for thisdy diesel credit because

[1:04:21] there were fewer than3 claims.

[1:04:25] so you're you're foregoing

[1:04:26] almost no revenue and almost no

[1:04:27] taxpayers are bothering to use

[1:04:28] it.

[1:04:30] because it's just too

[1:04:31] burdensome. The other problem

[1:04:32] with the credit right now is

[1:04:34] that the way that it's

[1:04:35] structured it's already been

[1:04:37] stated that the seller of the

[1:04:38] die diesel is the one that

[1:04:40] claims it but at the time of

[1:04:42] sale the seller would have to

[1:04:43] collect from the purchaser

[1:04:45] something in writing saying that

[1:04:46] they're going to use it

[1:04:48] primarily for egg and they

[1:04:50] didn't pass on thegRT and

[1:04:51] there's it puts the seller in a

[1:04:52] difficult position to have to

[1:04:56] make sort of make a statement

[1:04:59] to the state that I sold it to

[1:05:00] someone else and they told me

[1:05:02] they intended to use it for ag

[1:05:03] and that's just not something

[1:05:04] that they understand well or are

[1:05:06] really very excited to do

[1:05:08] because they're thinking well, I

[1:05:09] could get audited on this for

[1:05:10] many years and I don't'm not

[1:05:12] gonna have any contact with that

[1:05:14] purchaser anymore so those are

[1:05:16] some of the reasons that the

[1:05:18] current credit doesn't work

[1:05:20] well. I believe the reason you

[1:05:22] all as a body structured as a

[1:05:23] credit was because it allowed

[1:05:23] you to put a cap

[1:05:25] on it and so there was an

[1:05:27] estimated $6 million state

[1:05:29] general fund reduction4 million

[1:05:31] locals but really it's just

[1:05:33] too burdensome to do credits in

[1:05:34] the GRT and we would always

[1:05:36] advise just if you're if you're

[1:05:38] trying to give GRTre if you need

[1:05:39] to do it as a deduction.

[1:05:42] thank you for the clarification

[1:05:44] a couple of comments from from

[1:05:46] myself and I appreciate the

[1:05:47] context that senatorwirth

[1:05:50] provided in regards to the

[1:05:51] recollection of when we passed

[1:05:53] this in 2024 for the first time

[1:05:54] and and and how we're trying to

[1:05:57] improve it if we put a cap on

[1:05:59] it at10 million dollars then how

[1:06:00] close have we

[1:06:03] how close have we got to that10

[1:06:03] million dollars today.

[1:06:07] Chairman

[1:06:10] I can't even tell you the amount

[1:06:11] that's been claimed because

[1:06:13] fewer than3 taxpayers have

[1:06:15] claimed it it's a very very very

[1:06:17] small amount but to protect tax

[1:06:18] that's how small it is to

[1:06:20] protect confidentiality of the

[1:06:22] taxpayers they can't even

[1:06:23] disclose that amount it's very

[1:06:25] small. OK appreciate that and

[1:06:26] and and maybe this is a question

[1:06:27] for

[1:06:28] our our

[1:06:34] offroad vehicle expert Mr

[1:06:36] Ishmael Torres what did we know

[1:06:38] that the price of a gallon is

[1:06:40] that is that how they sold the

[1:06:41] price of a gallon of diet diesel

[1:06:43] what's the price today versus

[1:06:44] what's the I mean, I just saw

[1:06:47] coming up to Santay the price of

[1:06:49] diesel at the pump is 625.

[1:06:50] what's the price of a diet

[1:06:51] diesel gallon?

[1:06:54] uhm Chair, they should be very

[1:06:56] similar if the difference being

[1:06:59] the tax so it at $6 a gallon

[1:07:02] generally for for diesel you're

[1:07:03] gonna have die diesel more

[1:07:03] expensive than

[1:07:05] what you might see at the pump

[1:07:11] and so being that in 2024 this

[1:07:14] was caps we said capped

[1:07:16] capped to ag right and so this

[1:07:18] was the intent was that we're

[1:07:19] going to help the farmers and

[1:07:21] the and the ranchers of this

[1:07:23] state it's kept to ag at10

[1:07:24] million dollars.

[1:07:26] and now we're looking to expand

[1:07:28] it to potentially

[1:07:33] for for the general fund for

[1:07:34] year one as I'm reading this

[1:07:36] analysis between16 to26 million

[1:07:37] dollars per year

[1:07:39] that that's that's quite a

[1:07:42] big jump and it's because of its

[1:07:44] expansion to then not only just

[1:07:46] ag but then now construction and

[1:07:48] all offroad vehicles so then if

[1:07:50] that if that's the case then is

[1:07:52] there a residency requirement to

[1:07:53] participate in this

[1:07:56] No Mr Cha, there's no

[1:07:58] residential and so I guess where

[1:07:59] I'm going with this question is

[1:08:00] that

[1:08:02] in in in the south part of

[1:08:04] the state where Project Jupiter

[1:08:07] is is turning dirt like crazy

[1:08:09] are they gonna receive a large

[1:08:12] what we call it a benefit to

[1:08:13] to to that to that project

[1:08:13] that's going on right now

[1:08:19] m Chair construction activity

[1:08:21] mining activity and all

[1:08:23] commercial activity would also

[1:08:25] receive this as well we

[1:08:26] there's some conversation as

[1:08:28] well about maybe short line

[1:08:30] railroad could there's there's a

[1:08:31] a table in the analysis that

[1:08:32] shows sort of the other sectors

[1:08:34] that would benefit and you

[1:08:35] can you can look at that on page

[1:08:36] three.

[1:08:40] yep and and I saw that but I

[1:08:41] wanted for for the sake of

[1:08:42] conversation purposes to bring

[1:08:44] that up because I I think when

[1:08:46] when we when we did it initially

[1:08:48] the intention was I think right

[1:08:49] right obviously we want to help

[1:08:51] the folks in egg and that it was

[1:08:52] true then as it is today why we

[1:08:54] want to still continue to to

[1:08:56] help them out but as we

[1:08:57] expand it more I you know

[1:09:00] that's fine if if if the

[1:09:00] interest is there and and and

[1:09:02] and the willingness is there

[1:09:04] from this from this legislature

[1:09:05] but you know if that's the case

[1:09:07] and we're we're opening it up to

[1:09:08] to railroads and construction

[1:09:11] and and and to again the the

[1:09:12] project Jupiter folks down down

[1:09:14] south it's gonna be a a huge

[1:09:15] boom and and again take it or

[1:09:16] leave it I'm not trying to

[1:09:17] create any any friction there

[1:09:18] but I'm just saying that

[1:09:20] we're we're talking about some

[1:09:21] some different aspects now than

[1:09:22] what was once initially

[1:09:24] discussed at when we passed

[1:09:26] this as a credit rather than a

[1:09:27] deduction so those are

[1:09:30] those are my questions or or or

[1:09:32] comments to this appreciate it

[1:09:34] Ishmael and that being said

[1:09:36] we'll go back to the senator

[1:09:37] just one more followup could

[1:09:39] could you limit a deduction just

[1:09:39] to ag

[1:09:45] we could certainly put in the

[1:09:46] words and

[1:09:49] it's up to the taxpayer to

[1:09:53] all of them I don't know maybe

[1:09:54] that maybe the secretary should

[1:09:56] be probably be best to answer

[1:09:57] that question

[1:10:04] Thank you Mr Chair and senator.

[1:10:05] yes you could put in the words

[1:10:09] and yes we could audit after the

[1:10:11] fact to have a reasonable

[1:10:13] indication that someone was in

[1:10:15] the ag business and not the

[1:10:15] earth turning or

[1:10:16] off road

[1:10:17] vehicle

[1:10:21] for recreational purposes

[1:10:21] business

[1:10:28] loves it ok appreciate the

[1:10:29] conversation this morning

[1:10:29] Senatorchr thank you for

[1:10:30] stepping in for Senator Sanchez

[1:10:33] hopefully he'll he'll listen

[1:10:34] to this when he when he gets

[1:10:37] time to and to think about

[1:10:38] the the question and comments

[1:10:39] that we proposed this morning.

[1:10:40] thank you for the conversation

[1:10:41] sir.

[1:10:45] next and on behalf of senator

[1:10:47] Mimi Stewart we have sitting in

[1:10:48] her place senator vice

[1:10:50] chairwoman Hamblin who will

[1:10:52] be discussing increasing the

[1:10:55] amount of the new solar market

[1:10:58] development income tax credit

[1:11:00] joining her will be chief of

[1:11:01] staff for senator

[1:11:06] Stewart uhandorors and then we

[1:11:09] also have Jim this jardins

[1:11:10] executive director renewable

[1:11:12] energiesndustry association of

[1:11:14] New Mexico and so vice

[1:11:15] chairwoman whenever you're ready

[1:11:15] the floor is yours now.

[1:11:17] salud

[1:11:20] my goodness it is an allergy day

[1:11:23] here in Santa Fe coming up from

[1:11:24] southern New Mexico the juniper

[1:11:27] is just kicking my rear. thank

[1:11:28] you Mr chair and thank you

[1:11:30] committee and again thank you

[1:11:34] toenate protemstuart for

[1:11:36] asking me to go ahead and step

[1:11:38] in on this before I get

[1:11:40] into the actual bulk of the bill

[1:11:41] I wanna share with you kind of a

[1:11:42] personal story my wife and I

[1:11:44] were very fortunate enough to

[1:11:45] get a solar system put on our

[1:11:47] house about1f years ago and

[1:11:51] we have been able to really

[1:11:52] kind of make our house an energy

[1:11:53] efficient what they call an

[1:11:56] envelope because of in

[1:11:58] many cases the tax credits and

[1:11:59] the reason why we got the solar

[1:12:01] system on our house was because

[1:12:02] of the tax credits at the time

[1:12:06] we got a30% tax deduction

[1:12:07] because of that and the

[1:12:09] system itself was about an18,000

[1:12:10] dollars system and my wife and I

[1:12:12] are very fortunate enough to be

[1:12:14] able to do that but with the

[1:12:15] tax incentives it dropped down

[1:12:15] to12.

[1:12:19] and so that was a $6000 savings

[1:12:22] for us you know the tax

[1:12:23] credit was really what

[1:12:25] incentivized us to get that in

[1:12:27] addition to being able to reduce

[1:12:29] our energy use but you know I

[1:12:32] I think of the individuals that

[1:12:33] live in my community or in my

[1:12:34] neighborhood and those that

[1:12:36] don't have solar on their roofs

[1:12:37] on what they're spending causez

[1:12:38] I can tell you with our house

[1:12:41] with a refrigerated air unit our

[1:12:43] average bill is about45 dollars

[1:12:43] during peak summer.

[1:12:47] and so we're really lucky to

[1:12:50] have that savings and I'm really

[1:12:52] passionate about making sure

[1:12:53] that everybody who can afford

[1:12:54] that and making it affordable

[1:12:56] for everybody but also full

[1:12:58] transparency in my job I have

[1:13:00] several solar companies who

[1:13:02] are members and knowing these I

[1:13:04] run the Las Ccruces Greenchamber

[1:13:05] of Commerce and we talk about

[1:13:06] the importance of renewable

[1:13:08] energy in addition to supporting

[1:13:10] local businesses and the local

[1:13:11] solar companies that we have

[1:13:12] inpresentative Gallegos and I

[1:13:14] know several of those folks

[1:13:15] they're really good

[1:13:18] about informing people of the

[1:13:19] tax credits that are available

[1:13:20] because that's their job they

[1:13:22] are trying to sell a system but

[1:13:24] also make it as affordable as

[1:13:27] possible understanding the tax

[1:13:28] breaks that happen but this

[1:13:31] built today is in response to

[1:13:32] the federal credits being

[1:13:34] removed and that was one of

[1:13:36] the benefits for us back 15

[1:13:38] years ago was the the federal

[1:13:40] tax credit that existed and it's

[1:13:43] been since removed New Mexico

[1:13:44] has a10% solar

[1:13:47] tax credit for solar

[1:13:50] installations and the maximum

[1:13:52] is 6000 for residential and for

[1:13:54] small businesses and agriculture

[1:13:57] owners and the maximum is30

[1:13:58] million a year for the state 9

[1:14:00] million has been historically

[1:14:01] used and this the point of this

[1:14:03] bill is to increase the tax

[1:14:04] credit at the state level since

[1:14:05] we don't have it at the federal

[1:14:06] level

[1:14:09] at the federal level before

[1:14:11] that expired in 2025. it was

[1:14:13] a30% solar tax credit and the

[1:14:14] New Mexico solar industry lost

[1:14:16] an estimated 20% of jobs since

[1:14:19] the solar tax credit expired and

[1:14:20] in my community that's certainly

[1:14:21] evident as well.

[1:14:24] now we talk about us as the

[1:14:25] sunshine state and how we're

[1:14:27] very proud of the350 days of

[1:14:28] sunlight that we have a year.

[1:14:33] today almost included but

[1:14:34] what we're asking for and this

[1:14:36] has been a conversation that the

[1:14:38] prote has been really

[1:14:39] championing for the last couple

[1:14:42] of years is to bring back that

[1:14:43] other part that we lost in the

[1:14:46] federal portion of that but

[1:14:47] also make up for some of the

[1:14:48] money that has been lost since

[1:14:52] then and so this would be to

[1:14:53] increase the state tax credit to

[1:14:56] 25% include battery storage

[1:14:58] systems which full disclosure we

[1:14:59] are thinking of now

[1:15:02] just because of at the southern

[1:15:03] part of our border worried about

[1:15:04] electric rates going up.

[1:15:07] and also where we are in terms

[1:15:09] of our electricity usage. the

[1:15:11] max individual tax credit would

[1:15:14] be capped at15,000 and I'm sorry

[1:15:15] I want to correct this because

[1:15:16] Jim let me know that

[1:15:18] actually the solar industry

[1:15:21] lost40% of jobs not 2. that is a

[1:15:22] significant change so thank you

[1:15:23] for that correction

[1:15:26] the anticipated fiscal impact

[1:15:29] on high end would be17.1 million

[1:15:32] a year and this is based on3,430

[1:15:34] claims which is the actual claim

[1:15:36] increase of5,000 dollars due to

[1:15:38] the increased capacity in

[1:15:40] additional energy storage and

[1:15:43] then the it would also have

[1:15:44] no change to the sunset of the

[1:15:46] tax credit in 2032, so there is

[1:15:49] a there isn't a sunset day

[1:15:50] but really what it is the

[1:15:52] overall importance of this and

[1:15:53] and Sanders and and J

[1:15:56] im can correct me or or fill

[1:15:58] in where I'm missing but this is

[1:16:00] really to for for two things to

[1:16:02] incentivize people to be able to

[1:16:04] everydayme everyday New Mexicans

[1:16:06] to be able to consider buying a

[1:16:07] solar system to reduce their

[1:16:08] energy use, especially when

[1:16:09] we've been talking about the

[1:16:10] cost of gas right now we're

[1:16:12] talking about the guest of the

[1:16:14] cost of food and we don't want

[1:16:15] people having to decide whether

[1:16:16] or not to cool their homes or

[1:16:17] put food on their table when

[1:16:18] they can't pay their utility

[1:16:20] bills but also it's to help

[1:16:22] an industry that we should be

[1:16:23] supporting that

[1:16:24] we should be talking about when

[1:16:27] we talk about you know the

[1:16:29] impact that oil and gas has had

[1:16:30] on our state budget and also

[1:16:32] trying to diversify that and

[1:16:34] bring in renewable energy for

[1:16:36] crying out loud we have350 days

[1:16:38] of sunshine a year. why are we

[1:16:40] not supporting this and also

[1:16:41] being champions and that as

[1:16:42] equally as we are for the other

[1:16:44] resources that we have and this

[1:16:46] is really a great opportunity to

[1:16:49] do that and so I do hope that

[1:16:50] we are able to push this

[1:16:52] through I'll be a cosponsor with

[1:16:53] Senator Stewart

[1:16:55] on this bill but appreciate

[1:16:56] any feedback from the committee

[1:16:58] at this point on this bill and

[1:17:01] also give Sanders and Jim an

[1:17:02] opportunity to say a few words

[1:17:03] before we turn to the committee

[1:17:08] sanders good morning good

[1:17:09] morning Mrir members of the

[1:17:10] committee I'msners moreore I'm

[1:17:12] chief of staff to Proim Stewart

[1:17:14] and she has been working on this

[1:17:16] legislation for a while we've

[1:17:19] seen it come and go and I I just

[1:17:20] actually wanted to add to

[1:17:22] Senator Hamblin's personal

[1:17:23] story, I also put solar panels

[1:17:25] on my house when we purchased it

[1:17:27] the state tax credit did not

[1:17:29] exist but the federal tax credit

[1:17:31] did, I was working for a

[1:17:33] nonprofit making piddily little

[1:17:33] salary, I will say

[1:17:36] that my husband was a grad

[1:17:38] student at UNM also making a

[1:17:40] piddly celery when we put the

[1:17:41] solar panels in our house but it

[1:17:43] took our400 dollars summer

[1:17:46] bill which was a shock coming

[1:17:48] from a tiny apartment to a

[1:17:50] slightly larger house and we

[1:17:52] didn't have to pay anything

[1:17:54] at the time in our except for to

[1:17:56] connect to the grid it's $8 at

[1:17:57] the time to connect to p andM's

[1:17:59] grid and now with the increasing

[1:17:59] cost I will say that

[1:18:02] the system was sized when there

[1:18:03] were only two of us, we now have

[1:18:04] two children so it's not quite

[1:18:06] the right size for us anymore,

[1:18:08] but it is still kept our

[1:18:10] solar our our electric bills

[1:18:12] steady this summer and

[1:18:14] manageable when I have been seen

[1:18:16] on so many websites and social

[1:18:18] media that the spike in prices

[1:18:20] and so I'm really grateful that

[1:18:22] we were able to do that it

[1:18:24] made a huge difference in our

[1:18:26] we were we were not making as

[1:18:28] much as we are now to have that

[1:18:29] stability in our in our electric

[1:18:30] bills

[1:18:32] so I just wanted to add that

[1:18:34] from a personal perspective

[1:18:35] it has made a huge a huge

[1:18:38] difference and the addition

[1:18:40] here in Jim can add some is that

[1:18:43] my understanding is that Imner

[1:18:44] has actually been asking for the

[1:18:46] addition of the storage systems

[1:18:48] more more homeowners are adding

[1:18:50] the storage and it's actually

[1:18:51] been I think an administrative

[1:18:57] challenge to sort out the solar

[1:18:59] the batteries from the solar

[1:19:02] system to just provide the tax

[1:19:04] credit on the solar piece of

[1:19:05] those installations not

[1:19:06] everybody is adding the battery

[1:19:08] system with this s the solar

[1:19:10] panels but there has been

[1:19:13] more of an up an uptake in that

[1:19:14] as well and that is why this has

[1:19:16] been added to the proposal for

[1:19:18] this year and I'm here to answer

[1:19:19] any questions.

[1:19:19] thank you Mr Chairders

[1:19:22] pretty much

[1:19:26] chairmanentnte members of the

[1:19:28] committee Jim Dehordin I'm the

[1:19:29] executive director of the

[1:19:29] renewable energyndustry

[1:19:32] association of New Mexico

[1:19:34] just a couple of few points here

[1:19:36] the solar industry in

[1:19:38] Newexxico employs 2100 people

[1:19:40] but it's still in its infancy

[1:19:41] and there's a lot of room for

[1:19:43] growth and so what we want to do

[1:19:46] is to keep that growth going

[1:19:49] as was mentioned in 20

[1:19:52] twenty5 the one big beautiful

[1:19:53] bill eliminated the thir0

[1:19:54] % federal tax credit for

[1:19:56] residential solar systems

[1:19:58] effective at the end of the year

[1:19:59] so I put the industry in a

[1:20:02] really bad spot. and there

[1:20:03] has been a lot of layoffs some

[1:20:05] of our members have been very

[1:20:06] resourceful they're small

[1:20:08] business people and they've kind

[1:20:10] of branched out into other areas

[1:20:12] so give them credit for that

[1:20:14] also want to say that one of the

[1:20:16] advantages of residential solar

[1:20:18] and that's what this bill is

[1:20:21] geared towards is that it is

[1:20:22] basically on built environments

[1:20:23] so

[1:20:25] they're not big solar fields

[1:20:27] that some people object to they

[1:20:28] also because they're at the

[1:20:30] point of usage they're more

[1:20:32] efficient and also very

[1:20:34] importantly is that residential

[1:20:36] solar companies employed local

[1:20:38] people and it's a steady ongoing

[1:20:40] business it's not just a big

[1:20:41] project to hire a bunch of

[1:20:43] people project is done and then

[1:20:46] it's over to get into the

[1:20:50] actual impact one of the

[1:20:52] numbers that we used last year

[1:20:53] Mner processed

[1:20:56] 2595 solar tax applications

[1:21:00] this year to date to date was

[1:21:04] the end of august460. so you can

[1:21:06] see the real impact that is

[1:21:07] going on in our industry

[1:21:11] also want to say if you do look

[1:21:14] at the fiscal impact we did use

[1:21:15] some of the numbers from the tax

[1:21:18] and revenue department but

[1:21:21] there are some different ways

[1:21:22] you could look at that and if

[1:21:24] there's any questions on that

[1:21:26] I'm happy to to go into that

[1:21:28] that was really what I the

[1:21:29] points I wanted to make and

[1:21:29] thank you very much for the

[1:21:30] opportunity.

[1:21:33] thank you Jim thank you senator

[1:21:34] anything else toad if not we'll

[1:21:36] come to the committee Chair and

[1:21:39] committee you know also as I

[1:21:40] stated when we've had our solar

[1:21:42] system for about1f years and one

[1:21:44] of the things that we were

[1:21:45] considering was whether or not

[1:21:46] it was worth it to buy a battery

[1:21:47] and about5 years ago it wasn't

[1:21:49] worth it to buy a battery now

[1:21:50] it's worth it to buy a battery

[1:21:53] and so you know when we talk

[1:21:55] about bringing in the storage

[1:21:57] opportunities for our solar I

[1:21:59] can certainly see that those of

[1:22:00] us who were kind of early

[1:22:01] adopters to so

[1:22:03] lar systems on our house are

[1:22:04] going to be looking at those

[1:22:05] batteries as well.

[1:22:08] I look forward to the

[1:22:08] conversation, Mister Chair. Very

[1:22:09] good.ppreciate the conversation

[1:22:10] we started

[1:22:12] coming back to the committee

[1:22:13] let's go then to Representative

[1:22:14] Duncan.

[1:22:16] thank you Mr Chair

[1:22:17] in

[1:22:20] senator in this the bill we

[1:22:22] passed a couple of years ago did

[1:22:23] that have anything to do with

[1:22:25] keeping it to low income

[1:22:25] families

[1:22:26] or

[1:22:31] what's the limit that a person

[1:22:31] could get this

[1:22:36] thank you very much Chairman

[1:22:39] Lentte umpresentative Duncan so

[1:22:41] when the bill was and there's

[1:22:42] been a number of different

[1:22:43] itineations of this bill in

[1:22:44] terms of extending it and I

[1:22:46] think it was the most recent one

[1:22:49] that made the tax credit

[1:22:50] refundable for people who did

[1:22:52] not have sufficient tax

[1:22:54] liability to claim an actual tax

[1:22:55] credit.

[1:22:58] thanks for that Mr Cha but

[1:23:01] could I mean if I let's just

[1:23:02] say I' in half a million

[1:23:03] dollars, could I go ahead and

[1:23:04] get this

[1:23:05] credit

[1:23:07] ok that's what I want to know.

[1:23:09] thanks for that and and senator

[1:23:10] how long you said you've had

[1:23:12] yours1f years. how much longer

[1:23:14] do you think you'll have yours?

[1:23:15] I believe that we will have it

[1:23:16] for at least another15 years.

[1:23:18] Our system our inverter is

[1:23:21] still in top shape which

[1:23:22] we haven't had to change out yet

[1:23:24] and the panels that we did we

[1:23:25] did a lot of research and and

[1:23:28] found that we got we invested

[1:23:30] the money in the panels that

[1:23:31] still in their last 15 years

[1:23:32] even with hail storms haven't

[1:23:34] been damaged so you know I

[1:23:35] always encourage people when

[1:23:36] they're spending that much money

[1:23:38] on something to do a lot of

[1:23:40] research because I don't

[1:23:41] endorse a particular company but

[1:23:43] I always endorse doing your your

[1:23:44] your research on it and so my

[1:23:46] wife and I did and we've been

[1:23:47] very very fortunate with our

[1:23:48] system.

[1:23:50] and when I pay that electric

[1:23:51] bill of45 dollars in the middle

[1:23:52] of July. I'm very happy about

[1:23:56] doing that'll bet you are thank

[1:23:57] you one last question and we

[1:23:59] resolved how if I put that on

[1:24:04] there on my house and then

[1:24:06] my wife decides next week that

[1:24:08] we want to sell and and I still

[1:24:10] owe and I'm paying making

[1:24:11] payments on that have we

[1:24:13] resolved that yet then for those

[1:24:16] who who didn't have the money to

[1:24:17] write a check for this

[1:24:20] yeah thank you very much

[1:24:22] Chairman Lentte umpresentative

[1:24:24] Duncan so there's different ways

[1:24:26] that you can put solar on your

[1:24:28] home some people are

[1:24:28] fortunate to be in a position

[1:24:31] they just write a check. also

[1:24:32] other people will take out a

[1:24:33] loan and there's just different

[1:24:35] kinds of loans there are a

[1:24:38] loan from Nunda which requires

[1:24:40] no lien on your property. Other

[1:24:41] people might take out a second

[1:24:42] mortgage which would have alien

[1:24:44] on your property. Then there's

[1:24:46] also third party ownership so

[1:24:47] in other words another company

[1:24:50] actually owns a solar system and

[1:24:52] then you are either leasing or

[1:24:54] doing a what we call a power

[1:24:56] purchase agreement. So in those

[1:24:58] instances where there's either a

[1:25:00] leen or there is I forget what

[1:25:02] they call it but there is

[1:25:03] something similar to a leen a

[1:25:04] third party ownership company

[1:25:06] puts on there that does need to

[1:25:08] be resolved at the time that a

[1:25:09] home is sale is sold.

[1:25:11] thanks for that Mr Chair and

[1:25:12] that's that's our concern I

[1:25:14] think we heard that a couple of

[1:25:16] years ago you know as people

[1:25:18] got older and they needed to

[1:25:19] sell their home and and downsize

[1:25:21] they had to pay that off and so

[1:25:22] they didn't get near as much for

[1:25:23] their home and so that's what I

[1:25:24] was wondering about if there was

[1:25:26] a way that that that go could go

[1:25:29] to the new owner or does that

[1:25:30] individual have to pay it and

[1:25:31] then all of a sudden they're

[1:25:34] they're net value just

[1:25:36] decreased by half of that what

[1:25:37] they're going to get in return

[1:25:38] so that that's my concern

[1:25:42] Mr chair as we look at this how

[1:25:43] are we going to resolve that for

[1:25:45] those folks who have a system

[1:25:47] that's not paid for and and

[1:25:48] they're left on the hook even

[1:25:50] though they're no longer on the

[1:25:52] home or will own the home and

[1:25:53] mis chairir andres

[1:25:53] representative, I think that's a

[1:25:54] very good point because it also

[1:25:55] highlights predatory loan

[1:25:56] companies or predatory solar

[1:25:58] companies that have especially

[1:26:00] walked my streets come up to

[1:26:01] my door when you can very

[1:26:02] visibly see my solar panels on

[1:26:04] my roof. Um, they are there and

[1:26:06] they are not local. they are

[1:26:08] from out of state trying to

[1:26:09] capitalize on the solar

[1:26:11] opportunities that we have in

[1:26:14] this state and so I have the

[1:26:15] luxury in my job to really

[1:26:16] inform people about like do your

[1:26:20] homework always ask and with

[1:26:21] those predatory solar companies

[1:26:23] there are loopholes that

[1:26:24] people aren't understanding. I

[1:26:26] had a call one night from a

[1:26:28] friend who lives in Vegas who

[1:26:29] asked me about who did I go

[1:26:30] through to get my solar and I

[1:26:32] said who are you talking to

[1:26:34] right now and she told me it was

[1:26:36] a a popular out of state

[1:26:37] solar company that was really

[1:26:38] predatory and I said do not sign

[1:26:39] that

[1:26:41] contract because there are those

[1:26:42] loopholes and so what I always

[1:26:44] encourage people to do is to

[1:26:46] first and foremost go local

[1:26:48] because we know that those folks

[1:26:49] are going to be here in our

[1:26:50] communities and that they're

[1:26:51] already giving back to our

[1:26:53] communities Las cruces is no

[1:26:54] no no different from other

[1:26:57] parts but to to do the

[1:26:58] research and I think that's

[1:26:59] really important and that's upon

[1:27:00] us and that's upon you know

[1:27:02] jim's agency to really help

[1:27:04] people understand the nuances

[1:27:06] and then also to if you're going

[1:27:08] to spend that much money and

[1:27:09] it's going to be something

[1:27:09] that's going to pay off

[1:27:12] in dividends down the line to

[1:27:13] really do research and and

[1:27:14] understand that so I I

[1:27:16] appreciate your story as well

[1:27:17] because it is a concern.

[1:27:20] thank you representative let's

[1:27:22] go to senatorwirth thank you Mr

[1:27:24] Chair and I I just want a flag

[1:27:26] on page four of the bill the

[1:27:28] existing language that is struck

[1:27:31] on line se7 which is the30

[1:27:34] million dollar cap which we made

[1:27:38] as a policy decision when we

[1:27:40] pass this bill and I just want

[1:27:42] to highlight again I appreciate

[1:27:43] we had an interesting discussion

[1:27:44] during the session about this

[1:27:46] bill we actually ran this bill

[1:27:48] as a standalone out of the tax

[1:27:49] committee

[1:27:50] it also ran to the standalone

[1:27:52] out of the finance committee it

[1:27:53] passed the senate

[1:27:56] what's interesting though is

[1:27:58] that it's not scored at30

[1:27:59] million because it's only being5

[1:28:00] million is being used and I know

[1:28:04] yeah 9 million's being used

[1:28:05] so we're in this weird situation

[1:28:07] where we made the policy

[1:28:08] decision to cap this to30

[1:28:11] million but now when we tweak

[1:28:13] the mix that increases the use

[1:28:14] all of a sudden it gets a fiscal

[1:28:16] hit and that kind of have a hard

[1:28:17] time with that cuz we already

[1:28:18] made the decision that we wanted

[1:28:20] this to be a30 million dollars

[1:28:22] cap and right now if we took the

[1:28:23] existing law

[1:28:24] and cranked it up to30 million

[1:28:27] bucks we could do that under the

[1:28:29] existing law. so I think I

[1:28:30] just wanted to flag that

[1:28:34] I would hate to lose this in a

[1:28:36] tax package because it feels

[1:28:37] like we already did this

[1:28:40] we made the decision to move it

[1:28:41] to30 and I appreciate

[1:28:44] the share of tax the chair of

[1:28:46] Senate finance for recognizing

[1:28:48] that and moving that forward

[1:28:50] so one question I do have though

[1:28:53] if the30 million dollars cap is

[1:28:56] reached in a year up up in

[1:29:00] paragraph F page4 line3 it says

[1:29:06] once the cap is met reddits

[1:29:07] shall not be approved. Is there

[1:29:07] any

[1:29:09] provision I know with other

[1:29:12] like sustainable building we've

[1:29:14] got carriover. would there be a

[1:29:16] situation where somebody in

[1:29:17] November

[1:29:19] does their system we've already

[1:29:20] reached the th30 million. could

[1:29:22] that carry over to the next

[1:29:23] year's30 million dollars.

[1:29:27] thank you Senatorwirth thank you

[1:29:29] Mr Chair. there's not a

[1:29:30] queuing system, so if the30

[1:29:32] million dollars is met in a

[1:29:34] calendar year then then there

[1:29:36] would not be those people would

[1:29:37] be out of luck, but that is one

[1:29:38] of the reasons why the

[1:29:40] legislature decided to put the

[1:29:42] cap at30 million a couple of

[1:29:44] years ago so that the cap was

[1:29:46] high enough that it would not be

[1:29:48] reached that was a problem many

[1:29:50] years ago, but that is why

[1:29:52] this body chose to raise that

[1:29:53] from I think it was

[1:29:55] 10 million before that, but I

[1:29:56] might have my memory incorrect

[1:29:58] there just to make sure what

[1:29:59] would it take I mean it just it

[1:30:02] doesn't feel fair that someone

[1:30:03] who shows up in November is out

[1:30:04] of luck.

[1:30:06] you know and that's the problem

[1:30:07] is we're creating that I mean

[1:30:08] what did we do what does it take

[1:30:10] to have it be a carryover I mean

[1:30:12] I know we carryover and

[1:30:14] sustainable building tax credit

[1:30:15] is our additional language

[1:30:15] that's needed to make it carry

[1:30:16] over?

[1:30:24] chairman Lentte Senatorwirth

[1:30:25] actually in a previous

[1:30:28] itinration it did carry over and

[1:30:30] I believe there was some

[1:30:31] concerns about the way that

[1:30:32] worked

[1:30:36] and I believe the concerns came

[1:30:37] from tax and revenue but I don't

[1:30:38] wanna

[1:30:41] chair and senator we do also

[1:30:42] have Pam here to answer Pam

[1:30:44] Sttoes so with the legislative

[1:30:46] council service uhm chairir

[1:30:47] senator yeah you would need to

[1:30:49] add language to say that they're

[1:30:50] that any excess can be

[1:30:52] carried forward that that

[1:30:57] that would apply to an

[1:30:58] individual taxpayer though

[1:30:59] that's that's a if you want to

[1:31:00] do a cue that's something else

[1:31:03] and I believe as cider

[1:31:04] Sanders said they tried to

[1:31:06] design it with this30 million

[1:31:08] dollars cup to ensure there

[1:31:10] wouldn't be a need for a cue,

[1:31:12] but I don't know what

[1:31:16] the the takeup is of this credit

[1:31:17] and if there's room, it sounds

[1:31:18] like there's room it has been

[1:31:20] room and that they intentionally

[1:31:22] made rooms so they didn't run

[1:31:23] into the situation they had

[1:31:24] before they had to kind of

[1:31:27] backtrack and get people caught

[1:31:27] up who did get cut off.

[1:31:30] just remember there being a huge

[1:31:32] problem with the prior credit

[1:31:33] where a whole bunch of people

[1:31:36] were hanging in limbo and I

[1:31:37] would just suggest you consider

[1:31:38] putting the language in as a

[1:31:41] default because again you

[1:31:43] want this to be up to the cue

[1:31:44] that's the whole point of this

[1:31:46] is to encourage its use and it's

[1:31:48] just I don't want to see the

[1:31:50] situation again where the person

[1:31:51] who shows up in November is out

[1:31:52] of luck just because of

[1:31:55] the cue being there. yeah they

[1:31:57] gotta wait till next year and

[1:31:58] jump in front and then we should

[1:31:59] come back and decide whether we

[1:32:00] want to increase this if there's

[1:32:02] that demand that's all I have Mr

[1:32:03] chair thanks. Mr Secretary,

[1:32:04] could you chair in a little

[1:32:06] bitir I feel like have like a

[1:32:10] basketball team of of of

[1:32:11] supporters

[1:32:12] umm chairman and senatorwirth, I

[1:32:14] can think of two examples that

[1:32:16] you could use for drafting and

[1:32:18] there's like for example there's

[1:32:19] a couple credits like the

[1:32:20] sustainable where it just sort

[1:32:22] of says anyone denied

[1:32:23] certification because the

[1:32:25] cap has been reached is at the

[1:32:26] front of the line for next year

[1:32:28] there's also a slightly more

[1:32:30] complicated but sort of still

[1:32:32] interesting version in the film

[1:32:34] credit in the most recent where

[1:32:35] the film officeice can keep

[1:32:37] certifying project budgets once

[1:32:40] they meet the annual cap but

[1:32:41] only up to a certain point they

[1:32:42] have something I think it's100

[1:32:44] million dollars of wiggle room

[1:32:46] to cushion to keep certifying

[1:32:48] project budgets but once they go

[1:32:50] that far over then they truly

[1:32:51] stop so there's two different

[1:32:51] examples you could use.

[1:32:56] very good thank you. Other

[1:32:57] questions and comments from this

[1:32:58] committee?

[1:33:00] not to have a few of my own and

[1:33:02] so and this I think maybe the

[1:33:03] first one is gonna be for gimm

[1:33:04] do do we have a map

[1:33:08] a a statewide map of where these

[1:33:09] types of solar units for a home

[1:33:10] are installed

[1:33:16] thank you for the question

[1:33:17] Chairman Lenten. yes there is

[1:33:19] one at at Amnard you can go on

[1:33:20] their website and they'll show

[1:33:22] you where the applications have

[1:33:26] been submitted from I believe

[1:33:28] with the exception of Hilddago

[1:33:29] and hopefully if pronounced that

[1:33:30] correctly county every county

[1:33:32] has submitted at least one

[1:33:33] application.

[1:33:36] and of course as you might

[1:33:38] expect Santa Fe and Albuquerque

[1:33:40] areas have more application OK

[1:33:42] and I guess in terms of an

[1:33:44] application an application to

[1:33:46] have a unit installed or an

[1:33:47] appli what what do you what do

[1:33:47] you mean by application?

[1:33:50] chairman Lientting and thank

[1:33:51] you for that sorry for that I

[1:33:52] didn't clarify that the

[1:33:54] application would be the

[1:33:56] application for the tax credit.

[1:33:58] so one of the main ways that we

[1:34:00] actually track installations

[1:34:02] and related activities are

[1:34:04] through the amnerd website which

[1:34:06] is very good OK and and the

[1:34:07] reason I asked this question and

[1:34:08] and again this is just me being

[1:34:10] ignorant and for forgive my my

[1:34:12] misconceptions but oftentimes

[1:34:13] when I look through my my

[1:34:15] district for instance and I

[1:34:15] drive through

[1:34:19] I I don't see any units on any

[1:34:20] pueblo homes. I don't see any

[1:34:22] units on any reservation in

[1:34:24] thenavo Nation homes I don't see

[1:34:25] any units on any of the homes in

[1:34:26] the town of Bernolio I don't see

[1:34:28] any home units on any of the

[1:34:30] rural community homes that that

[1:34:32] I that I see I just don't see

[1:34:34] them and so again forgive this

[1:34:36] misconception but are are are

[1:34:38] these credits being used for

[1:34:39] those that have the means then

[1:34:40] to afford this type of

[1:34:42] I'll I'll call it a luxury for

[1:34:43] lack of a

[1:34:49] thank you Chairman Lnte. So I

[1:34:50] can offer you a couple of

[1:34:52] explanations for that. first of

[1:34:54] all, I believe there is a lower

[1:34:57] adoption rate of of solar in

[1:34:59] rural communities and a native

[1:35:00] American communities but I

[1:35:03] will also say that probably my

[1:35:06] estimate is 60% or more of the

[1:35:08] homes in New Mexico have flat

[1:35:10] roofs and most solar ins

[1:35:11] installation companies use a

[1:35:13] ballot system that I believe at

[1:35:14] its highest point is only16

[1:35:15] inches above the roof.

[1:35:18] so what I'm suggesting is

[1:35:19] sometimes you just simply don't

[1:35:21] see it because it's not visible

[1:35:26] oh and I I'm sorry one more

[1:35:28] point to that is I believe in

[1:35:31] the last itterration of the

[1:35:34] legislation it did at clarity to

[1:35:36] how native American communities

[1:35:38] could take advantage of the tax

[1:35:39] credit so hopefully that has

[1:35:39] helped as well.

[1:35:42] I appreciate that Jim and then

[1:35:44] so I'm I'm just gonna ask

[1:35:46] another question then so for a

[1:35:47] home and I don't know the

[1:35:48] average size of a home in New

[1:35:49] Mexico let's just say1,500

[1:35:51] square feet house what would a

[1:35:53] unit cost not with the battery

[1:35:55] pack or what it just just the

[1:35:56] unit to get them up and up and

[1:35:57] running what what does that cost

[1:36:02] Mr Chair you know I can and

[1:36:04] and Jim can add just in in

[1:36:06] our case fif years ago it was

[1:36:08] an18,000 dollars purchase and

[1:36:12] I wanna to address your point

[1:36:13] and I'll get to that question is

[1:36:14] that I think as a state we do a

[1:36:16] horrible job at informing people

[1:36:17] about all the different things

[1:36:17] that we can offer at the state.

[1:36:20] you know from economic

[1:36:22] development to film to solar

[1:36:23] credits to different tax

[1:36:24] credits. I don't think we do a

[1:36:25] good enough job and I think that

[1:36:26] that's something that we have to

[1:36:28] do better in order to make

[1:36:29] sure that every New Mexican has

[1:36:31] an opportunity and access to

[1:36:33] this should they be able to

[1:36:34] 15 years ago our solar system

[1:36:36] was18,000 dollars. I know that

[1:36:38] with the you know when when

[1:36:40] there's an increase in it

[1:36:42] prices can go down but it

[1:36:44] also is you know, do you want a

[1:36:46] solar system that has 6 panels

[1:36:47] on it or do you want a solar

[1:36:47] system that has16 panels on it

[1:36:50] and that obviously changes the

[1:36:52] cost. but you know it's

[1:36:53] been so long so I don't know

[1:36:56] what an average system costs

[1:36:57] at this point Jim if you don't

[1:36:58] mind clarifying that. Sure thank

[1:37:00] you Senatorhamblin and

[1:37:03] Chairman Linte the the way

[1:37:04] that they measure the cost of

[1:37:06] solar is the price per watt so

[1:37:08] you got you know ri per pound

[1:37:10] price per gallon whatever so

[1:37:12] the price per watt has gone down

[1:37:14] since the time that Senator

[1:37:16] Hamlin purchased her system

[1:37:17] the average cost it it

[1:37:20] and I hate to answer it this way

[1:37:22] but it depends it varies depends

[1:37:24] on your electrical usage you

[1:37:25] have electric vehicle do you

[1:37:28] have refrigerated air but to use

[1:37:30] a number from Mner the

[1:37:35] average tax credit in 2025

[1:37:38] was $2,533 so that would in

[1:37:41] other words be a $25,000 system

[1:37:42] and I think that's a a fair

[1:37:43] estimate

[1:37:46] before any tax credits got it

[1:37:48] and thank you for for for

[1:37:49] engaging in in this conversation

[1:37:50] and so I I'm looking then at at

[1:37:54] page four of our analysis and it

[1:37:55] says that

[1:37:58] an average income of a house who

[1:38:01] installs a unit is about115,000

[1:38:02] dollars that that household

[1:38:03] makes right

[1:38:06] and and it's and it looks like

[1:38:08] the average household income

[1:38:10] currently of a new Mexican

[1:38:12] family is $65,000 per year and

[1:38:15] so I I I'm not trying tom not

[1:38:16] trying to engage in anything

[1:38:17] negative at this point I'm just

[1:38:18] trying to make clear that when

[1:38:19] we're when we're talking about

[1:38:20] these types of of initiatives

[1:38:22] and incentives right? I I wanna

[1:38:24] to make sure that we're looking

[1:38:25] out for everybody that everyone

[1:38:26] can enjoy them and so that leads

[1:38:28] me then to my next question and

[1:38:30] would be then probably to one

[1:38:32] that represented Duncan had was

[1:38:33] do we have a salary re

[1:38:36] g ul ator to focus on lower or

[1:38:38] middle income families that may

[1:38:41] be at that $65,000 or less

[1:38:43] household income to help them

[1:38:43] out before we help out

[1:38:47] the families that are making the

[1:38:48] household income of115,000

[1:38:49] dollars

[1:38:56] Mr Chair, I'm gonna go ahead and

[1:38:57] let Sanders answer that if

[1:38:59] that's all right Mr chair there

[1:39:00] is nothing currently in the

[1:39:03] legislation that targets

[1:39:06] different income levels the

[1:39:07] addition as Jim had mentioned

[1:39:09] earlier of the refundability

[1:39:13] was an effort for the the solar

[1:39:14] companies to be able to provide

[1:39:18] that the tax credit upfront for

[1:39:22] those purchasers and I agree

[1:39:23] with Senator Hamlin I think that

[1:39:23] this is

[1:39:26] something that we don't probably

[1:39:27] do well enough job of explaining

[1:39:28] the benefits, I mean, I

[1:39:29] mentioned I was mentioning my

[1:39:31] piddly salary is nonprofit

[1:39:33] before because it was I knew the

[1:39:34] benefits because I had actually

[1:39:36] worked on the tax credit and

[1:39:38] so I knew the benefits to my

[1:39:39] family or to myself and my

[1:39:40] husband at the time to install

[1:39:42] solar, but we were making

[1:39:44] definitely less than far less

[1:39:48] than115,000 as together and

[1:39:49] so but I knew that I knew the

[1:39:50] benefits of doing that and I

[1:39:51] knew those would be long term

[1:39:52] benefits but I think that's

[1:39:53] something if we educate people

[1:39:56] as to how that and there's no

[1:39:57] way we could have done it

[1:39:58] without the federal tax credit

[1:39:59] as I mentioned the state tax

[1:40:00] credit did not exist when we

[1:40:02] installed solar but that30% back

[1:40:03] I will tell you getting that

[1:40:04] check back from the federal

[1:40:05] government and put it straight

[1:40:06] onto the loan that we had taken

[1:40:08] out and it just knocked it down

[1:40:10] so much so all of this helps

[1:40:12] people be able to afford and

[1:40:15] then buffer from spike

[1:40:16] increases and inflation and

[1:40:18] everything that we're seeing

[1:40:19] today with affordability and Mr

[1:40:21] Chair if I can add on to though

[1:40:21] you know we've we've had other

[1:40:22] legislation and Jim you can help

[1:40:23] out with this is in terms of

[1:40:26] our community solar to help make

[1:40:27] that more accessible to

[1:40:28] people who can't purchase a

[1:40:31] whole system and so I I do

[1:40:33] think this conversation really

[1:40:35] is helping us kind of look at

[1:40:36] all the different options

[1:40:38] because I shared the same values

[1:40:39] as like I want everybody to be

[1:40:40] able to have access to this so

[1:40:41] that they can lower their

[1:40:43] utility bills. I also feel

[1:40:44] that we need to do a better job

[1:40:46] of educating people and helping

[1:40:47] do outreach to let people know

[1:40:49] what opportunities are there

[1:40:50] and not just with purchasing

[1:40:51] their own solar system but if

[1:40:52] they can tap into community

[1:40:53] solar or other

[1:40:55] projects that are happening in

[1:40:57] the area so I think it's really

[1:40:58] important that as we move

[1:40:59] forward with this bill is to

[1:41:00] look at all the different

[1:41:02] opportunities that people have

[1:41:03] to access and where are the

[1:41:04] deficiencies in that?

[1:41:07] and really try to address those

[1:41:08] I think the intent of this bill

[1:41:11] is to help increase the use of

[1:41:12] solar energy but how we get it

[1:41:14] to where it is equitable to

[1:41:16] every single person across the

[1:41:18] state I think is really the the

[1:41:20] the value that we're trying to

[1:41:21] instill in this. Yeah.

[1:41:23] and I appreciate that because

[1:41:25] quite honestly is that I I I I'm

[1:41:26] less likely to want to support a

[1:41:28] continuation of a credit to

[1:41:30] people that are making the

[1:41:32] on the upper end of the wage

[1:41:34] scale versus those that we can

[1:41:35] probably really help out that

[1:41:36] need the help at the end of the

[1:41:37] day to help offset their their

[1:41:39] electric bills or whatever their

[1:41:42] energy their costs couple of

[1:41:44] last questions and sunset of

[1:41:49] 2032 but this is a reaction

[1:41:50] to the cuts of the federal

[1:41:53] credits correct? So what would

[1:41:56] that be302032 or if the federal

[1:41:58] credits come back and then would

[1:41:59] we wanna to just escape this

[1:41:59] altogether

[1:42:03] thank you for that uhs I'm

[1:42:05] sorry chairman Linte we've

[1:42:07] been in this proposed

[1:42:08] legislation does not change the

[1:42:12] existing sunset which is 2032 so

[1:42:13] yeah that that is not

[1:42:18] contemplated to change one up or

[1:42:19] down got and final question is

[1:42:24] is this program restricted to

[1:42:26] homes with solar panels and I

[1:42:28] bring this up only because I

[1:42:30] know for those involved in

[1:42:32] agriculture solar is now the new

[1:42:34] way that many ranches are

[1:42:36] getting water for their cattle

[1:42:37] instead of windmills so could

[1:42:38] this program be utilized for

[1:42:41] those ranchers in rural Mexico

[1:42:41] to supply water for the cattle.

[1:42:44] Sure thank you Chairman Linte

[1:42:46] for the question. So basically

[1:42:50] the the legislation and we're

[1:42:51] not changing that aspect either

[1:42:53] but the way it is currently

[1:42:54] anyone who owns the land

[1:42:56] can take advantage of it

[1:42:59] or for Native American

[1:43:02] communities it's approach a

[1:43:03] little differently but so so

[1:43:04] therefore yes a small business

[1:43:08] can take advantage of it a

[1:43:10] rancher farm homeowner but

[1:43:11] you have to own the land where

[1:43:12] you're putting the solar on

[1:43:16] I'll I'll just add Mr Chairman

[1:43:17] that it would not be for

[1:43:18] commercial size solar

[1:43:22] installations so if a utility or

[1:43:23] another entity wanted to

[1:43:26] but a commercial size facility

[1:43:28] on a farm or a ranch and work

[1:43:29] with that landowner

[1:43:31] that would be a totally

[1:43:32] different type of system this is

[1:43:34] for the smaller scale

[1:43:36] residential or some of those

[1:43:38] benefits to the farmers but and

[1:43:40] ranchers but not at a commercial

[1:43:41] scale where they would be

[1:43:43] selling to the utilities the

[1:43:44] electricity or the the the the

[1:43:45] utility would own that

[1:43:48] that solar facility like a solar

[1:43:50] field like a solar field exactly

[1:43:51] got it but and and so but

[1:43:52] nonetheless you did make mention

[1:43:54] that it was a commercial it it's

[1:43:56] it's offered to commercial but

[1:43:57] just not at a scale so that if a

[1:43:59] commercial warehouse for

[1:44:00] instance in Santa Fe wanted to

[1:44:01] partake in this program they

[1:44:02] could

[1:44:06] so there is a cap or the

[1:44:09] state tax credit I believe we

[1:44:10] would be we're proposing

[1:44:13] changing that from $6000 to I

[1:44:16] believe it's15,000 dollars the

[1:44:18] credit is going up so that cap

[1:44:21] alone basically precludes any

[1:44:24] large commercial entity for

[1:44:25] applying for it yes they could

[1:44:26] up to that amount.

[1:44:29] but it would it would that's

[1:44:29] what limits them

[1:44:31] very good.

[1:44:33] any other questions or comments

[1:44:33] from the committee?

[1:44:36] if not folks thank you

[1:44:37] Senatorhamlin for stepping in

[1:44:38] sanders and Jim thank you for

[1:44:41] joining us this morning folks

[1:44:42] you know hate to bring it to you

[1:44:44] but we're we're we've managed

[1:44:46] through everything super fast

[1:44:49] this morning and un unless

[1:44:50] you want to sit around for

[1:44:52] another two hours with us

[1:44:53] you're welcome to but if not

[1:44:54] we've come to an end of our

[1:44:56] agenda for this first

[1:44:59] interim session I foresee the

[1:45:02] October meeting being much more

[1:45:03] packed given the the

[1:45:06] content of of what's gonna be

[1:45:08] discussed which again includes

[1:45:10] economic development, property

[1:45:12] taxation and affordability that

[1:45:13] includes housing retail

[1:45:14] purchasing etc etc and that list

[1:45:16] can go on and so again I would

[1:45:18] encourage us that if there are

[1:45:20] pieces of legislation that that

[1:45:21] you want to have

[1:45:25] analyzed by ourlfc please get

[1:45:27] that into them again please

[1:45:29] treat christina and the team

[1:45:30] with with the utmost of respect

[1:45:31] and care because they're working

[1:45:32] on our behalf and they work

[1:45:34] extremely hard for all of us

[1:45:36] and and again that's for all of

[1:45:38] us around this table and those

[1:45:39] of us that and those of you

[1:45:41] that might be lobbyists that

[1:45:42] want to try to engage in the

[1:45:44] conversation with them they work

[1:45:46] for all of us so please do treat

[1:45:48] them with care we appreciate

[1:45:49] your your engagement during

[1:45:50] these past couple of days and

[1:45:51] with that we will see you again

[1:45:51] in October

[1:45:53] thank you all very much we're

[1:45:54] adjourned

IC - Revenue Stabilization and Tax Policy

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