[0:00] this conference will now be recorded

[0:05] and uh and where did that voice come

[0:07] from

[0:10] that that was me john i'm just turning

[0:12] on the recording

[0:13] part of our uh um system is that we'll

[0:16] record these meetings and upload them

[0:18] because we're not streaming this live so

[0:21] we're recording the meeting and that was

[0:23] me

[0:24] don't you because we have had two

[0:26] meetings before

[0:28] without it being recorded don't you

[0:31] think it would be

[0:32] appropriate to ask this task force

[0:35] whether or not they want the meeting to

[0:37] be recorded

[0:39] i believe it was included in the agenda

[0:42] that

[0:43] because no one can physically show up as

[0:46] would normally be the ability people

[0:48] could show up to a meeting because it's

[0:49] published on our website

[0:51] in lieu of that what we do is we record

[0:55] the meetings and then

[0:56] upload them after the fact which is one

[0:59] step down from what we do with council

[1:01] where we live stream them

[1:03] and record them so this is kind of a

[1:06] compromise because it takes less uh

[1:10] staff to do this than it does to live

[1:12] stream

[1:15] nevertheless um i'll ask everybody

[1:19] whether or not they have any objection

[1:22] to having the meeting recorded

[1:23] at this particular point uh it's bob

[1:26] none

[1:27] no objections hearing none we'll proceed

[1:30] so welcome everyone for objection

[1:34] um i'm assuming then that everybody has

[1:38] a copy of the agenda so we can review

[1:41] the agenda

[1:43] anything that people would like to see

[1:44] added uh and if they don't have a copy

[1:47] of the agenda in front of them uh just

[1:49] pipe up now and i'll make sure it's on

[1:51] the

[1:53] uh agenda it's bob i have uh one one

[1:56] thing here

[1:56] you have uh near the bottom of the

[1:58] agenda draft final resolutions you have

[2:01] two of them

[2:02] uh tonight i'm going to propose a third

[2:05] so i i don't know um

[2:08] if i should just say give you notice now

[2:11] that i will

[2:12] propose a third uh uh final resolution

[2:15] at that point in time thank you very

[2:18] much

[2:19] i'll i'll record that and we'll get to

[2:20] that in order very good

[2:24] so uh approval of the minutes from the

[2:27] previous meeting

[2:28] any uh any changes additions deletions

[2:34] uh none in all moves that they be

[2:36] approved here oh that's very good

[2:38] uh second done

[2:43] uh

[2:46] so the general topics that have been

[2:50] originally assigned to the task force as

[2:53] if we need reminding of this

[2:55] at this point are the ranked ballot

[2:58] voting matter

[2:59] and the ward system voting matter

[3:03] in relation to the first of these

[3:06] uh i just note as everyone knows

[3:10] uh this was an option that has now been

[3:13] foreclosed

[3:14] by uh royal assent of bill uh

[3:17] 218 nevertheless

[3:20] i have been advised uh verbally

[3:24] by the mayor that in a report

[3:30] which i'll speak to later which we will

[3:33] uh

[3:34] assemble up for tabling with council

[3:38] uh we will uh

[3:42] go through some of the pros and cons of

[3:44] that and perhaps

[3:46] uh as well uh reach a resolution

[3:50] of the task force to advise council on

[3:54] so it's uh although it's off the table

[3:58] it's still on our table uh

[4:01] does anybody have anything they'd like

[4:03] to uh

[4:04] in terms of procedural matters to uh

[4:09] to add on to these two major topics

[4:13] that we're uh still

[4:17] being asked to report on to cancel

[4:23] very good so uh item five on the agenda

[4:26] is

[4:27] i i wanted this on just to to

[4:30] give the task force members a chance

[4:33] just to

[4:34] recap given the interval of uh

[4:38] well perhaps half a global pandemic

[4:42] in time to recall that i think we've had

[4:46] um representations externally

[4:50] to date only by uh

[4:54] sharon martin who attended one of the

[4:57] meetings

[4:58] and ralph mantello who attended one of

[5:00] the meetings

[5:01] uh both of them expressed themselves

[5:04] quite clearly

[5:06] on the two topics um uh

[5:10] neither of them to my knowledge i was

[5:12] hoping peter

[5:14] king would be on board to confirm here

[5:17] uh none of them tabled uh

[5:20] written remarks uh

[5:24] so our our re recollections of those

[5:28] will have to stand at this particular

[5:30] point uh

[5:31] as we uh make reference to them

[5:34] in a draft report or we can we can firm

[5:38] those up

[5:40] if and when the opportunity arises to do

[5:42] so

[5:43] right but uh we've had uh

[5:48] i think some discussion about both of

[5:51] these topics

[5:55] but i think it's fair to say that the

[5:58] meetings in which the counselors

[6:00] attended

[6:01] were fairly general in nature and were

[6:03] really

[6:05] seeking the advice and opinions

[6:08] of the two counselors uh and i think

[6:12] those representations took up most of

[6:14] the meetings as

[6:15] in my own recollection of it

[6:20] so um are there any other

[6:23] comments that people would like to offer

[6:26] at this particular

[6:27] point uh stefan bob oh

[6:31] peter king has signed on

[6:35] if peter can hear us if you hit your

[6:38] speaker button that would be much

[6:41] appreciated

[6:46] or that using the new word that's been

[6:48] introduced to the english language

[6:50] unmute yourself very good peter how are

[6:53] you the evening

[6:59] peter can you hear me

[7:04] can anyone still hear me i i can hear

[7:07] you john

[7:08] yes joan

[7:09] [Music]

[7:12] well pierce if peter has the same delay

[7:16] involved in his uh uh connections

[7:20] uh then perhaps he will come live with

[7:23] us

[7:24] in a moment or two i think we all

[7:26] experienced a little bit of delay here

[7:28] right so that's john john

[7:31] um may i make a suggestion in the agenda

[7:35] we would talk first about ranked ballot

[7:39] and second about award system voting

[7:42] my suggestion is to reverse the sequence

[7:46] uh my suggestion is that we first make a

[7:49] decision

[7:49] whether we would go for a ward system or

[7:52] not

[7:53] because that will strongly influence um

[7:56] when we talk about the ranked ballot

[8:01] uh i'm i i will i will uh

[8:05] what do you think about that bob i don't

[8:07] care which order

[8:08] these are spoken about in particular and

[8:11] i must confess

[8:12] steph and you'll have to enlighten me

[8:14] later about how

[8:16] these are uh connected but uh yes

[8:19] i gladly do that and you yeah

[8:22] do you mind them being spoken of in in

[8:25] that order

[8:28] absolutely not no um

[8:32] it's possible though that my suggestion

[8:34] for a third resolution

[8:36] uh makes all of this uh mute

[8:40] but um you you've all received the

[8:43] the material that i prepared with some

[8:46] suggestions uh and some

[8:50] information my feelings about ward

[8:53] system so

[8:54] i i'm happy to talk about it whenever

[8:57] you want

[8:58] yeah and stuff and i would um

[9:03] i would um maybe interject

[9:06] here that uh

[9:10] i had a very enlightening conversation

[9:12] with the mayor

[9:14] who who uh let me know

[9:17] that uh in her opinion

[9:21] our uh forwarding to council

[9:24] for their uh perusal

[9:28] a uh a summary report

[9:31] on these two subject matters in addition

[9:35] to

[9:36] any resolutions we may want to take on

[9:39] these two items

[9:41] uh is what uh would be most useful to

[9:45] counsel

[9:46] and uh and with that in mind maybe i'll

[9:49] just

[9:50] skip ahead just to put that into context

[9:52] uh

[9:53] stefan i i would propose

[9:56] you know uh as one of the later action

[9:59] items that

[10:00] that i can at least um start

[10:04] a you know a first draft of some sort of

[10:07] report

[10:09] which you know briefly

[10:12] uh recapitulates the

[10:15] pros and cons of these around these two

[10:19] matters

[10:20] and then deals with the matter

[10:24] of resolutions that the task force may

[10:27] take on that

[10:29] now i'm getting a call here from peter

[10:32] king an email

[10:33] saying he can't connect

[10:36] and uh although it says

[10:39] he's connected here perhaps i'll get

[10:42] back to him and just ask him if he would

[10:43] try again

[10:48] [Music]

[10:52] please try again

[11:02] assistant has uh vacated the premises

[11:10] is is fred no gone still here

[11:14] oh very good thank you fred okay

[11:18] well maybe i should ask

[11:22] him as well whether peter is hearing me

[11:30] oh what

[11:43] perhaps i should just give up yeah

[11:47] uh now where am i

[11:51] do you want to take a minute and see if

[11:53] we can sort peter out john

[11:56] he would appreciate it i'm sure i don't

[11:59] quite

[12:00] i'm sure you have his email so

[12:06] so first of all peter if you can hear me

[12:08] i see that you've got your mic

[12:10] on uh but if

[12:13] we can't hear you or you hopefully you

[12:16] can hear us

[12:17] try logging out initially and then

[12:20] logging back in if you log in

[12:22] please be sure you're using the chrome

[12:24] browser

[12:25] and we'll try that as a first step that

[12:28] does

[12:28] isn't successful we'll we'll see what we

[12:32] can do from there

[12:34] so please try to log out peter and

[12:36] re-log in and ensure you're using chrome

[12:39] as your browser

[12:43] great and while he's doing that john i

[12:46] don't know if you want to carry on with

[12:47] the meeting or not

[12:48] and i will email

[12:52] so the reason i mentioned that uh stefan

[12:54] is that

[12:57] uh i think getting a report together

[13:00] and uh especially in peter's absence

[13:04] it wouldn't be appropriate for us to

[13:07] move to

[13:08] taking a resolution or a vote on a

[13:10] resolution

[13:11] on either of these matters uh with only

[13:15] three of us

[13:16] on board i mean we could do so but uh

[13:20] it would be i think uh

[13:23] impolite to peter when all that's

[13:25] standing between

[13:26] us and communication with peter is

[13:29] probably a telephone call

[13:31] so uh ah looks like peter is tuned out

[13:35] and may be tuning back in again

[13:37] yeah yeah uh john um i

[13:40] wholeheartedly agree with you and maybe

[13:43] we can use the time

[13:45] for me to give you a reason why i was

[13:47] asking for the reverse

[13:49] of the agenda

[13:52] first reason is that the

[13:55] ranked ballot is more or less an fyi

[13:59] for our council because as we are by now

[14:02] aware

[14:03] that voting system is now illegal

[14:06] or not possible in ontario so

[14:10] the real decision the meet and bone of

[14:12] the meeting going forward in the short

[14:14] term

[14:15] will be award system yes or no

[14:19] if yes three or four wards

[14:22] so once we get this behind us

[14:25] then it may have some influence on the

[14:28] ranked ballot

[14:30] um because uh maybe

[14:33] a ranked ballot system may be more

[14:35] appropriate for a non-war

[14:37] system or for award system depend

[14:41] so my suggestion is let's uh

[14:44] move on first with the discussion

[14:46] regarding

[14:47] ward system yes or no point two

[14:50] three or four awards and then

[14:53] go on to rank ballot that's just a

[14:55] suggestion

[14:56] that seems to me logical and uh

[15:00] and clear i'm also basing that on bob

[15:03] mcrae's

[15:04] notes which he sent to us which i

[15:06] absolutely like

[15:08] and that totally makes sense to me

[15:12] uh i hear yes stefan but i i i just say

[15:16] once more

[15:17] that uh i think we should have this

[15:19] discussion of the ward system voting

[15:21] yeah when's when uh sharon

[15:24] and ralph mantello were visiting

[15:28] and making their representations they

[15:31] spoke

[15:31] uh very emphatically against

[15:35] a award voting system and

[15:38] has given us at least the rudimentary

[15:42] rationale for why they thought so

[15:45] to uh balance with that we've got

[15:48] a very succinct uh uh description

[15:53] by bob mccray of what positive merits

[15:57] are in in his uh viewpoint so

[16:02] um i i think

[16:05] we can frame up the pros and cons

[16:09] in a kind of a report manner but we're

[16:12] still

[16:13] i think going to uh

[16:18] not be able to resolve the matter of

[16:21] reward system voting in terms of a

[16:24] resolution from the task force

[16:26] without peter on board i just don't

[16:28] think when we're

[16:30] down from five uh

[16:33] because someone stepped off the task

[16:35] force to go down to

[16:37] three uh just because of we're not using

[16:41] a platform like zoom which seems to be

[16:44] so much more efficient

[16:45] so it's it's to penalize

[16:49] uh peter john

[16:52] i totally agree i totally agree and i

[16:55] even

[16:56] would even suggest uh and you make a

[16:59] good point if peter is unable to join

[17:02] i suggest we close the meeting

[17:04] reschedule it

[17:05] and i have to chuckle right this is one

[17:08] of the things

[17:09] where i'm torn between being a

[17:10] politician and

[17:12] the president of a private corporation

[17:16] i have not been in a go-to meeting for

[17:18] probably a year

[17:20] so why is the public sector using a

[17:22] technology

[17:24] so yes let's resume meetings and let's

[17:27] move on

[17:28] you know i agree with these and this is

[17:30] kind of like

[17:31] the most primitive of the primitive new

[17:33] technologies

[17:37] yes paul so it's it's uh

[17:40] grillman here yes so no

[17:43] john i'm not i'm not going to entertain

[17:46] uh stefan's uh

[17:48] idea about cutting off at this

[17:50] particular point

[17:52] i really appreciate the fact that you

[17:56] john creelman and sharon martin have

[17:59] have uh tuned in to this meeting again

[18:02] and i would like uh to at least

[18:05] let us fulfill this item six on the

[18:09] agenda

[18:10] which is to welcome uh

[18:13] john and sharon if she wants to uh

[18:16] to make a representation on these two

[18:19] subject matters

[18:20] and to emphasize to both of you that

[18:24] we would really appreciate those

[18:26] representations

[18:28] if you could as well send them to us

[18:32] in writing in abbreviated form and i

[18:35] will make sure that those

[18:36] representations are reflected

[18:39] in whatever draft report we bring

[18:41] forward to council

[18:42] so i'll turn it over to you john i just

[18:45] wanted to make sure you knew the chair

[18:47] was not going to cut you off

[18:49] uh mid meeting i appreciate that

[18:53] uh first and foremost i don't think you

[18:55] should be feeling pressure to make

[18:57] decisions tonight

[18:59] on anything this is a process that may

[19:03] take a few meetings to

[19:05] to work itself out and

[19:08] i am not of the view that you should

[19:11] um be bigfooted by

[19:14] the opinions of members of council on

[19:17] this

[19:18] issue including myself

[19:21] uh you were appointed as an independent

[19:25] task force to look at the issue

[19:27] and to make recommendations to us uh

[19:31] we can make submissions to you

[19:34] and you are perfectly free in my opinion

[19:37] to ignore them so having said that

[19:42] i'd like to speak to the two

[19:45] issues that are are before you number

[19:48] one the the rank ballot

[19:50] and number two the ward system uh the

[19:53] rank ballot

[19:54] has been um unceremoniously taken off

[19:58] the

[19:58] the table by the provincial government

[20:00] and i think some background is required

[20:03] here

[20:04] uh it was originally provided for in the

[20:06] municipal elections act by the former

[20:09] liberal government uh the only

[20:11] municipality to avail itself

[20:14] of the opportunity to uh elect

[20:17] a council by way of rank ballot was the

[20:19] city of london

[20:21] i think the consensus was

[20:23] notwithstanding a little

[20:24] a few bumps in the road it was a success

[20:29] there were two other municipalities that

[20:31] voted by way of referendum

[20:34] to adopt a rank ballot

[20:38] process in the next municipal election

[20:41] city of kingston being one and i believe

[20:44] cambridge being the other the actions of

[20:48] the provincial government

[20:49] and we have no idea uh who

[20:52] prompted these they came from absolutely

[20:55] out of the blue uh not only said that

[20:59] ranked ballot was no longer an option

[21:01] for anyone considering it

[21:03] but it was no longer an option for the

[21:06] two municipalities

[21:08] that wanted to proceed by way of their

[21:11] elector's will that being kingston and

[21:14] cambridge and the city of london was

[21:17] precluded from using the process

[21:20] a second time

[21:24] i'm a supporter of it i think that

[21:27] it does a number of things and again i i

[21:30] preface my comments by saying

[21:32] that you're an independent task force

[21:34] you can make whatever recommendations

[21:36] you wish to counsel

[21:38] and i don't want to give you the

[21:41] impression that you have to follow

[21:45] the submissions of individual members of

[21:48] council here

[21:49] but red ballot has not true because you

[21:52] said that twice now john let me just

[21:54] tell you that you are not to mistake

[21:58] my politeness with counselor

[22:01] for any agreement with their positions

[22:04] on my part

[22:06] okay fair enough uh just back to rank

[22:10] ballot

[22:10] uh ranked ballot in one form or another

[22:14] is used

[22:15] all over the world uh it has

[22:18] several different approaches one is

[22:22] the election runoff where a candidate

[22:25] does not acquire 50 percent and there is

[22:28] a second round of voting

[22:30] we are witnessing that in the state of

[22:32] georgia as we speak

[22:34] uh ranked ballot is used in the state of

[22:38] maine that's a two-round election

[22:42] like they're running georgia right now

[22:44] like they run in french

[22:45] france for the presidential elections

[22:47] that is not

[22:48] talking about we're talking about uh

[22:54] the principle is the same it is somebody

[22:58] has to get

[22:59] more than 50 of the vote

[23:02] uh and the the mechanism to get there is

[23:05] different

[23:06] you can have a runoff election or you

[23:09] can have a ranked ballot that allocates

[23:11] votes

[23:12] but the principle is the same and i say

[23:14] this only because

[23:16] this is not some kind of foreign or

[23:18] strange

[23:19] alien process

[23:22] it's used worldwide yes the goal is the

[23:25] same i agree with you on that

[23:26] the goal is the same exactly uh the

[23:29] other thing that

[23:30] rank ballot has demonstrated time and

[23:32] time again

[23:34] is that it it uh encourages

[23:38] more people to run uh people

[23:41] think uh maybe incorrectly that they

[23:45] stand a better chance

[23:46] of getting elected through a ranked

[23:49] ballot

[23:50] situation uh where

[23:53] second choice is given credit uh as

[23:57] opposed to being

[23:58] totally ignored then a first pass the

[24:02] pro

[24:03] first pass the pro opposed process

[24:06] the other thing that rank ballot does is

[24:09] that it

[24:10] encourages a civilized election

[24:13] and as much as everyone is trying to be

[24:17] everyone the second choice of

[24:20] the electorate okay so you're not only

[24:24] campaigning in your own right

[24:26] but you're trying to demonstrate to the

[24:28] electorate

[24:29] that if not you then

[24:32] if not somebody else then you should be

[24:34] getting everyone else's

[24:36] second vote so i think it has many

[24:40] uh advantages it doesn't always come

[24:43] into play

[24:44] in as much as if you've only got two

[24:46] people running against each other

[24:49] the issue is mute if you have three

[24:52] people or four people running for the

[24:54] same position

[24:55] it may well engage in a circumstance

[24:59] where somebody does not achieve fifty

[25:01] percent of the vote

[25:02] uh in the first instance so

[25:06] uh and finally i'd say that the argument

[25:09] that we are too

[25:10] small or we have too few electors

[25:14] uh i don't think really frankly applies

[25:19] um i'm always concerned with our first

[25:22] pass the post

[25:24] process when somebody can get

[25:28] 70 of the vote as i did in the last

[25:30] election

[25:32] with only 30 of the electorate

[25:35] or somebody gets 50 of the

[25:38] vote with only 30 of the electorate

[25:42] or 45 of the vote with

[25:45] 30 percent of the electorate it is

[25:48] it is not a system that is is sustained

[25:52] is sustaining in my view so that's all

[25:55] i'm going to say about the rank ballot

[25:58] um it is we are precluded from doing it

[26:01] but we are not precluded from asking

[26:04] our electors in the next election by way

[26:08] of a

[26:09] referendum question whether we

[26:12] should be able to do it and i would

[26:15] point out that municipalities

[26:17] across ontario took huge offense

[26:20] at the fact of being told by the

[26:22] province

[26:24] that this was notable to them not that

[26:26] they were thinking about it not that

[26:28] they would ever do it

[26:29] but the fact that the province took the

[26:31] option

[26:32] off the table second submission i'd make

[26:36] on the ward system is that

[26:41] i think the task force should look at it

[26:44] it should not discard it outright

[26:48] there is a concept in political science

[26:51] known as communities of interest

[26:53] and in mono we have at least

[26:56] two separate distinct communities of

[26:59] interest

[27:01] the rural portions of our town and the

[27:03] the

[27:04] urbanized portions of our town the

[27:07] settlement areas

[27:09] and the question that i think needs to

[27:11] be answered

[27:12] is whether or not the

[27:16] those areas should somehow be

[27:18] represented

[27:19] by individual counselors

[27:23] who speak to those issues specifically

[27:26] i've looked at bob's mapping

[27:30] and i would lean towards personally the

[27:34] three-ward system because we have three

[27:36] counselors

[27:37] at large and

[27:40] i would not necessarily go with the

[27:45] the way he's drawn it up but i think you

[27:47] could look at the town from the

[27:48] standpoint of the north end

[27:50] the middle end and the south end so i'd

[27:54] simply leave it there but it is not

[27:56] an issue or a subject that should be

[27:59] easily dismissed

[28:00] because we are content with how we

[28:04] are proceeding currently i think that

[28:07] the south end

[28:08] feels disenfranchised i certainly heard

[28:11] that

[28:12] during the election and i hear it

[28:14] virtually every week

[28:16] as the deputy reeve deputy mayor i

[28:19] should say

[28:20] anyways i'm flashback you're dating

[28:23] yourself yeah i'm going to leave it at

[28:25] that i don't want to

[28:27] say anything more because as i say i

[28:29] think you people can

[28:30] sort this out but i think that at a

[28:33] minimum

[28:34] the issue of the ranked ballot should be

[28:37] subject to a referendum question

[28:39] in the next election if not the issue if

[28:42] you cannot come to a conclusion about a

[28:44] ward

[28:44] system i think that that should be the

[28:46] subject of a question as well at an

[28:48] absolute minimum

[28:52] so i take it from your remarks uh john

[28:55] that

[28:55] you seem to be in support of a

[28:59] three-ward system

[29:01] for mono i i would i

[29:05] would yeah i would i would say so at

[29:08] this point i think it is worthy of

[29:10] investigation

[29:12] i mean there's pros and cons depending

[29:13] on how the boundaries are drawn

[29:16] and depending on whether you're of the

[29:18] view that somebody

[29:19] elected at large is uh perfectly capable

[29:24] of representing the entire town there

[29:26] there are people who are of that view

[29:29] uh and uh it it is arguable that that

[29:33] is the case but i think as we become

[29:36] more

[29:36] urbanized in the south end the question

[29:40] of award system keeps coming up keeps

[29:43] coming up and i think we need to address

[29:45] it

[29:47] could i ask a couple of questions john

[29:49] um

[29:51] on the on the ward system you know um

[29:55] i kind of took from uh

[29:58] some of our earlier discussions that

[30:00] there was a bit of a feeling that

[30:02] uh that expressed uh

[30:06] a contrary to what you're saying that

[30:09] this was

[30:10] getting getting towards a little bit of

[30:12] identity politics and that

[30:14] it's it's there's settlement and there's

[30:16] rural and

[30:17] and uh while that would be the direction

[30:20] we're all going these days

[30:22] i wondered do you not see any other

[30:26] particular uh identities

[30:29] in modal that similarly deserve

[30:32] representation i i i think in particular

[30:35] of

[30:36] of lumping all of rural together

[30:40] uh whereas within rural there is a farm

[30:44] community

[30:44] and there is a non-farm community i

[30:47] think as well of

[30:49] the the tricky matter of the of the ward

[30:53] possible ward boundaries in as much as

[30:57] you know uh our camilla and mortal

[30:59] center

[31:00] settlement areas or or

[31:04] they just get put in with rural uh so

[31:07] uh uh i just asked if you might have

[31:11] thought of these

[31:11] two things john yeah um

[31:15] i have and um i think that

[31:19] you know any any ward system is

[31:21] arbitrary by nature

[31:24] um i think you have to avoid

[31:27] a situation where you're potentially

[31:31] gerrymandering um but you're

[31:34] if you if you apply the concept of

[31:37] community of interest

[31:39] um my experience in nearly 30 years in

[31:43] in comic life and mono is that we have a

[31:47] very distinct

[31:48] community of interest uh with regard to

[31:52] the north end of the town

[31:54] with the center and now with the south

[31:57] and given

[31:58] the way in which it's been built up i

[32:01] think you could have a

[32:03] functional ward system

[32:06] respecting those three communities of

[32:09] interest

[32:10] and of course we would capture very

[32:13] small

[32:14] settlement areas uh insofar as the north

[32:17] end would have rosemont

[32:18] the center would have camilla and mono

[32:21] center

[32:23] but the the the

[32:26] reality of counsel is that

[32:29] at the end of the day we all have to be

[32:31] collaborative

[32:32] and we all have to um respect

[32:37] where each other is coming from

[32:40] so you're never going to get a situation

[32:42] where the person who is representing

[32:45] the uh settlement area um

[32:49] is going to be simply a one-track

[32:52] one-trick

[32:52] pony they're going to have to recognize

[32:55] the interests and

[32:57] concerns of the center of the town and

[32:59] the north end

[33:00] and likewise the person who is elected

[33:03] in a northern

[33:05] ward is going to have to be sensitive to

[33:09] the issues

[33:10] of the people in the seventh end of the

[33:12] town in the subdivisions

[33:14] so at the end of the day it all works

[33:17] out i guess what i'm trying to say

[33:19] good i thank you very much john can i

[33:21] ask you

[33:22] oh sorry just i was just going to ask

[33:25] john

[33:26] one more question about the the ranked

[33:28] ballot matter

[33:29] so um i got quite interested in the

[33:33] ranked ballot piece

[33:34] when uh doug ford's uh progressive

[33:38] conservative party used it

[33:40] in their uh election rather than them

[33:43] using the old-fashioned canadian

[33:46] party leadership election style which

[33:50] uh does uh is one of those

[33:53] those other approaches that has to

[33:56] yield eventually more than 50 percent so

[34:00] i i wondered immediately after that

[34:02] particular election

[34:04] why the candidate who

[34:07] ended up last um

[34:10] was uh feted in the media uh

[34:14] having decided the the final outcome and

[34:17] and

[34:17] of course when i when i then turned to

[34:20] the guideline

[34:21] on uh on ranked ballot voting

[34:24] i uh went with some particular

[34:28] uh i don't know care through the

[34:31] the technical description of how

[34:35] all of the voting takes place what is

[34:39] counted

[34:40] who gets to vote whose second votes get

[34:43] to be counted etc etc etc

[34:45] and i reached i just i'm just not going

[34:47] to get into the detail of this

[34:49] john but and i could share this with you

[34:51] i shared it with the other task force

[34:53] members i

[34:54] i came to a particular conclusion

[34:57] on the matters of both fairness and

[35:00] comprehensibility

[35:02] and uh and i got some really healthy

[35:05] and uh uh pushback from bob mcrae

[35:09] uh telling me that no i was mistaken

[35:11] that in fact

[35:12] the voting took place in this particular

[35:16] manner rather than how i read it and we

[35:19] went back

[35:19] several times back and forth on it and

[35:23] my final conclusion really was that uh

[35:27] how to uh over-educated individuals like

[35:32] bob mccray and myself could read the

[35:34] same

[35:35] you know pages four through eight

[35:40] of this guideline on how to count the

[35:42] votes

[35:43] and opposing views of what they actually

[35:46] meant

[35:47] which sort of reconfirmed me and the

[35:50] idea that

[35:51] it might not be possible to actually

[35:53] explain to mere mortals

[35:56] how their votes are counted

[35:59] in a ranked ballot voting i think

[36:02] essentially

[36:03] you know my question to you john is do

[36:06] you think you can explain it

[36:08] to a voter uh say over the course of a

[36:13] of uh you know a uh a coffee

[36:17] say because i

[36:20] could not in all conscience without

[36:23] having the guideline in front of me

[36:25] going through it i could not explain how

[36:28] the voting takes place

[36:32] you make a valid valid point i'd say a

[36:35] couple of things

[36:37] if you think rank ballot is complicated

[36:40] remember the concept of proportional

[36:43] representation

[36:44] which was floated almost 20 years ago

[36:48] that was even more

[36:51] you know mind-numbing in terms of

[36:54] of explanation and that went down

[36:57] that went down to defeat in a referendum

[37:00] uh poorly defended in ontario and i

[37:03] think it went down

[37:04] twice in british columbia uh the rank

[37:07] ballot is

[37:08] uh complicated but it's far at the end

[37:11] of the day it's far more simple

[37:13] um it essentially takes into

[37:15] consideration people's second choices

[37:17] well no no it does not take into

[37:20] consideration

[37:21] everyone's second voice the votes only

[37:24] those

[37:25] of the only those who voted for

[37:28] candidates

[37:29] who progressively get dropped off the

[37:31] ballot

[37:32] the the person who doesn't vote

[37:36] who votes initially for the leading

[37:38] candidate

[37:39] does not get their second vote counted

[37:43] okay i i i don't i don't want to get

[37:47] too into the weeds on this but i'm

[37:50] trying to simplify it

[37:52] to the extent that people's second

[37:55] choices

[37:56] matter and

[37:59] i i find it ironic that this has been

[38:02] used in in

[38:03] party leaderships but it is deemed not

[38:07] to

[38:07] be usable in a municipal election

[38:11] uh my theory here is

[38:14] that somebody woke up and said to rob

[38:17] ford one day

[38:18] that if ranked ballot took off and was a

[38:21] success municipally

[38:23] uh people would start demanding that it

[38:25] be used provincially and if if not

[38:27] provincially federally

[38:29] and it certainly isn't to the advantage

[38:33] of one particular party uh in as much

[38:36] as were i a a green supporter my second

[38:40] choice might be liberal

[38:41] and if i was a liberal supporter my

[38:43] second choice might be green

[38:45] and guess who comes out with the short

[38:47] end of the straw

[38:49] so it has it has been shut down okay

[38:54] so the best we can do is either ask our

[38:56] electorate whether or not they want to

[38:58] see it used

[38:59] or not but can we use it the answer

[39:03] at the moment is no but i think

[39:06] it can be explained i think it is

[39:10] preferable to the first past the post

[39:13] where somebody can get elected

[39:16] in best of circumstances with 15 percent

[39:20] of the total electorate

[39:23] votes that's no mandate i mean

[39:27] nobody nobody can claim a leadership

[39:30] role when at best they have ma managed

[39:33] to convince

[39:34] 15 of the total electorate

[39:37] uh to support them

[39:41] uh i i i i agree with you on that john

[39:44] um

[39:45] so let me ask uh bob do you have any uh

[39:49] questions of john to uh uh

[39:52] take advantage of john krielman while

[39:54] he's here with us

[39:56] uh i i don't have uh questions uh of

[39:59] john

[40:00] um but uh what i do want to say

[40:04] uh and and it's interesting and you know

[40:08] that doug ford's been criticized about

[40:09] the fact that

[40:10] leadership conventions or his leadership

[40:13] convention

[40:14] used this i've been a member and a

[40:17] participant

[40:18] in the provincial conservative party and

[40:20] the federal

[40:21] conservative party uh for quite some

[40:24] time now

[40:25] and leaders have have been elected uh

[40:28] uh uh to get uh insisting that they get

[40:31] fifty percent of the vote

[40:33] uh for decades now uh and

[40:36] the the ranked balloting uh was simply

[40:39] done uh to make it simpler i remember uh

[40:42] some leadership

[40:43] conventions where we voted once

[40:47] uh and then uh the the the person

[40:50] who got the most uh votes did not get 50

[40:54] and we physically had to go back to the

[40:56] uh

[40:57] to the election hall and and vote a

[41:00] second time

[41:01] and then so you know this is not new uh

[41:04] for those

[41:08] sorry that's the more traditional

[41:10] approach

[41:11] is um you don't get it right second time

[41:14] everybody vote the fact every

[41:15] if the first time everyone again votes

[41:18] the second time

[41:19] exactly what i what i do want to uh to

[41:23] say and and

[41:24] uh you you have the material that i put

[41:26] together on this and

[41:27] um uh you know john's thought

[41:30] uh you know i i did two two uh

[41:34] uh alternates uh uh so

[41:37] as a discussion point three-ward system

[41:40] four-word system

[41:41] uh four-ward system uh i mean i'm not

[41:44] proposing that we

[41:46] increase the number of people on mono

[41:48] council

[41:49] and and the the whole thought of a mayor

[41:52] appointing a deputy mayor i'm not sure

[41:56] that's the right way to do it

[41:57] i think john's idea about

[42:00] a different three-ward system is a good

[42:03] one

[42:04] and after this meeting i'm going to sit

[42:05] down and i'm going to color up another

[42:07] map for a different three-ward system

[42:11] for our consideration but one of the

[42:14] things and when i said

[42:16] at the beginning of the meeting that i

[42:17] was going to propose a third

[42:20] uh resolution uh in fact is

[42:23] uh similar to what john creelman

[42:26] has suggested and and that is that

[42:29] um i i don't believe that this council

[42:33] um we know uh uh

[42:36] their feelings on it uh they are not

[42:38] going to

[42:39] uh i'll put money on it and i'm not a

[42:41] betting man uh

[42:42] but let's call a spade is paid they are

[42:44] not going to vote to to to change the

[42:47] system that we've got now

[42:48] but what i would propose and what i was

[42:51] going to suggest as a third resolution

[42:54] which i think we should discuss at a

[42:55] future meeting

[42:57] is that the town of mono have a

[43:00] referendum question

[43:01] on the uh 2022 election ballot

[43:06] uh asking residents a preference between

[43:10] the current system award system or a

[43:12] ranked

[43:13] ballot system so john

[43:17] brought that up uh so i think it's

[43:19] appropriate that i

[43:20] i bring that up now um it would be a

[43:24] non-binding

[43:25] referendum of course but it would give

[43:28] the

[43:28] the new 2022 council

[43:31] uh some direction uh so that was going

[43:35] to be my

[43:36] uh my suggestion for the third you know

[43:38] my feelings about

[43:40] award system i've run in two elections i

[43:43] will not

[43:43] run in a third one uh but in both of

[43:46] them i was quite vocal and

[43:48] insistent the award system uh and you've

[43:51] read my uh

[43:53] words there ward system for balance

[43:55] direct representation and mono

[43:57] uh you know my passion uh that that that

[44:00] is my first

[44:01] choice but second choice would be to

[44:03] have this as a referendum question in

[44:05] the next election i've written that down

[44:09] a uh a possible resolution to add

[44:12] uh and for our uh later discussion when

[44:15] we come to

[44:16] to talking about uh resolutions thank

[44:19] you very much bob that's a very good

[44:20] suggestion

[44:22] thank you

[44:27] um it's a little known fact that the

[44:29] town of orangeville used to have a word

[44:31] system

[44:33] 100 years ago it had a word system

[44:37] and i i'm sure the word boundaries made

[44:41] absolutely no sense whatsoever

[44:44] and they they stopped using it

[44:48] they never passed the necessary

[44:50] legislation to stop using it

[44:53] and a mischievous lawyer about 20 years

[44:56] ago

[44:57] no almost 25 30 years ago

[45:00] raised the fact that they had

[45:04] illegally elected councils for

[45:07] 75 years without reference to the

[45:10] the award system and a private bill was

[45:14] had to be brought into the legislature

[45:17] to to make it all

[45:18] right um i found it amusing at the time

[45:22] um but that's to say that that if you do

[45:26] go with the ward system you have to to

[45:28] draw your boundaries so as to

[45:31] represent communities of interest

[45:35] and the the boundaries have to be

[45:38] you know explainable and rational uh

[45:40] from that standpoint

[45:42] just back to the ranked ballot

[45:45] canada is the only country in

[45:48] in the um uh

[45:52] organization of um i forget the the

[45:55] international organization

[45:57] of economic development i think that

[46:01] that clings to its first post

[46:04] process every other country

[46:07] has some form of either a second round

[46:12] to achieve 50 or a ranked ballot

[46:16] or a combination of both so we're we're

[46:19] clinging

[46:19] tenaciously here to a dinosaur

[46:23] uh whose time is is running out

[46:26] oedc i should say that's the

[46:28] organization

[46:30] um and uh in ideal world

[46:33] can can i get your world

[46:37] john i'm wondering if if i might uh

[46:41] interrupt just to give a stefan a chance

[46:43] to

[46:44] uh follow up with any additional uh

[46:47] questions john and just to let you know

[46:49] i am going to ask you

[46:51] to please uh

[46:54] even if it's half a page or a page

[46:58] because i would like to incorporate um

[47:02] what you're talking about into

[47:05] the draft perhaps not in exact

[47:09] words but i will be able at least then

[47:11] to be able to quote you on a number of

[47:13] items sure let me fact check you stefan

[47:17] is there anything you'd like to add well

[47:20] just almost a direct question to john's

[47:23] just recent

[47:24] comment i didn't quite understand it

[47:26] because

[47:27] it depends obviously on the level of

[47:30] election

[47:30] but when you look at the highest level

[47:32] what we would call a federal election

[47:35] actually most oecd

[47:38] countries use the first pastor post like

[47:41] the united states like france

[47:44] like the united kingdom um that is a

[47:47] traditional system it's more like the

[47:49] younger democracies

[47:51] such as germany latin america

[47:55] eastern europe they use a far advanced

[47:58] system

[47:59] to properly elect their parliaments so

[48:02] um

[48:03] but it also makes a difference right a

[48:06] system

[48:06] how to elect your federal parliament may

[48:09] be

[48:10] different how to vote for a you know

[48:13] small municipal parliament which

[48:16] represents only let's say i don't know 5

[48:18] 000 people

[48:19] so i'm not sure whether a direct

[48:22] comparison between the highest level and

[48:24] the lowest level of election

[48:26] makes sense in that context

[48:29] that's very very serious

[48:32] stefan you're actually correct um and

[48:36] the oecd comparison uh

[48:39] works to a point uh to take united

[48:42] states as an example

[48:43] uh the only exception is in the state of

[48:46] maine

[48:48] where they do a rank ballot but

[48:51] that throws a spanner in the argument

[48:53] that

[48:55] the united states is a pure first pass

[48:58] the post democracy uh

[49:01] in canada we are a pure first past

[49:04] opposed democracy and uh

[49:08] in in germany as you're aware there's

[49:10] there's uh

[49:11] uh allocation of uh of uh seats in the

[49:15] bundestag um dependent on the percentage

[49:19] of uh

[49:19] votes garnered by a particular party i

[49:22] think that

[49:23] the level is 20 if my memory serves me

[49:25] right

[49:26] um but you know my my

[49:30] only point here is that we've got to

[49:33] evolve and move on from from what we're

[49:35] currently doing

[49:36] uh because frankly it has no credibility

[49:40] and

[49:40] increasingly less credibility

[49:44] john thank you i i'll just

[49:48] chip in a couple comments one of which

[49:49] is that i

[49:51] quite agree with everyone's sentiment

[49:54] that

[49:55] a leader getting more than 50

[49:58] 50 plus one of the votes cast

[50:03] would be a great world to live in and uh

[50:06] i i i personally am a fan of two round

[50:10] elections

[50:11] i'm a fan of the old fashioned canadian

[50:14] party leadership approach

[50:16] uh vote absolutely guaranteed 50

[50:19] plus one uh at any rate i

[50:22] i will by exchange with you john

[50:26] and just for your own amusement i will

[50:29] uh

[50:30] when i get your your comments on uh

[50:32] first

[50:33] uh on the ranked ballot voting i will i

[50:36] will flip you a copy of my

[50:38] uh uh obscure

[50:41] uh calculations of unfairness but uh

[50:45] okay nevertheless i think what what what

[50:47] i perceive here

[50:49] is that with this discussion and with

[50:51] our previous discussions

[50:53] and with bob's a paper and with uh

[50:56] perhaps

[50:57] with my notes as well on ranked ballot

[51:00] voting

[51:01] i'm beginning to see the shape of a

[51:04] draft report

[51:05] that that is framed really around

[51:09] those two subject matters as a whole

[51:13] and can put forward uh positive

[51:16] uh arguments on both sides of each of

[51:19] those questions

[51:20] and then proceeds to distill

[51:24] through resolutions uh task towards

[51:27] uh resolutions on both matters uh and

[51:31] perhaps with the addition of the third

[51:32] matter

[51:33] that bob uh ron raised

[51:36] about a uh referendum

[51:40] thanks and i'm gonna i'm gonna sign out

[51:42] now but one thing to

[51:43] to consider as well is i think council

[51:47] council would be well welcoming a

[51:50] recommendation to um affirm the

[51:54] uh or not uh the process of election i.e

[51:58] the

[51:58] internet that we used last time uh

[52:01] coupled with

[52:02] uh in-person voting at the town hall

[52:07] and certainly would welcome any

[52:09] recommendations that you would make with

[52:11] regard to

[52:13] increasing vote voter turnout uh voter

[52:16] engagement uh

[52:17] from in in so in so far as the process

[52:21] of voting is concerned

[52:22] uh any of those things i think are are

[52:25] within within your mandate

[52:28] personally i like the internet voting

[52:31] but it has to have a backstop

[52:33] uh in terms of in-person uh

[52:37] opportunity as well but i'll just leave

[52:39] that with you and

[52:40] and wish everybody a wonderful evening

[52:43] thank you very much john

[52:44] and i'll just finish by saying the

[52:46] voting cannot be done

[52:48] with go to meeting technology

[52:57] they've changed the format of it and i

[52:59] cannot navigate this

[53:01] new um interface there you go it's all

[53:04] there to help us

[53:06] sharon as well

[53:09] uh i can i ask you whether or not

[53:13] you have anything additional to

[53:15] contribute to our discussion

[53:17] and secondly whether or not you might be

[53:20] willing to

[53:20] uh jot down a few of

[53:24] your uh thoughts on these two topics

[53:29] uh for our consideration for inclusion

[53:32] in the uh in the report that we bring

[53:35] forward

[53:35] to council sure i'll i'll be really

[53:39] quick

[53:40] and um i i'll just

[53:44] hit the topic the ranked ballot i'm

[53:47] really uh i'm i'm waffling about the

[53:51] ranked ballot

[53:52] i'm starting to think that it might be a

[53:54] good idea however

[53:56] i don't it's fine to uh look into it

[53:59] it's fine to study it

[54:01] but right now it isn't going to happen

[54:04] so

[54:04] this can be background stuff that you're

[54:06] doing

[54:07] but don't spend a whole lot of time on

[54:10] it because you're not going to be able

[54:11] to do it

[54:12] um as far as the ward systems are

[54:15] concerned

[54:16] um uh i would

[54:20] hope if it ends up happening that it

[54:23] would be like county council

[54:25] where you come from different areas but

[54:28] you're not

[54:29] there particularly for your own

[54:33] um business for your own

[54:36] things that are going on in yours in

[54:39] your municipality

[54:41] you are there for the whole county and

[54:43] it

[54:44] would have to be the same way i don't

[54:46] think you can do that

[54:48] um with the structure we have now

[54:51] at our table at our council table

[54:55] i don't think you could do that i don't

[54:56] think you can divide it up four ways

[54:59] how do you how do you do that um

[55:02] are the is the mayor running for one

[55:04] area and the deputy mayor for another

[55:07] and the three

[55:08] the three stooges um are they running

[55:11] for what

[55:13] um i

[55:16] i think that there's more to be done for

[55:19] the southern area for

[55:21] our southeast area and

[55:24] more to be done in the sense that when i

[55:27] was

[55:28] in that area i had to convince

[55:32] someone that they lived in mono

[55:35] right absolutely i had to because

[55:39] and they said oh no we're in orangeville

[55:41] but and i thought how could you not know

[55:43] that

[55:44] but they pay their mo the way they pay

[55:46] their mortgage through the bank

[55:49] the taxes go they don't have anything to

[55:52] do with it so they don't even know

[55:54] anyway um that i ran into that a lot of

[55:58] times

[55:59] um and and i well okay a lot

[56:03] so three definite times and a couple i

[56:05] was pretty suspicious of because they

[56:07] really didn't want to talk to me but

[56:09] anyway um that's

[56:11] neither here nor there uh i'm i just

[56:14] can't get excited about a ward system i

[56:17] i think that there are other things that

[56:19] we can do

[56:21] um to make things it's too bad we don't

[56:24] have

[56:25] um one of our buildings right there

[56:29] in um one of the southeast

[56:33] um areas one of our buildings so that we

[56:36] could have

[56:37] meetings there so um a town hall meeting

[56:41] could be there so there are are other

[56:44] things that we can do besides doing the

[56:46] ward system

[56:48] um i the

[56:51] the last thing was something that john

[56:53] said and that

[56:54] was what i was going to say is don't

[56:57] limit yourself

[56:58] to these two things that we need to

[57:00] discuss

[57:01] internet voting and i thought it was

[57:03] fabulous

[57:05] and um i thought it worked really well

[57:08] there are

[57:08] very few hiccups a few people who were a

[57:11] little

[57:12] um boggled by it but really when you did

[57:15] it

[57:16] there was no problem at all and voting

[57:18] in person at the town hall of course you

[57:19] always have to have that bake up

[57:21] back up because there are always people

[57:23] who won't get it so

[57:25] i i agree you still your mandate is

[57:28] bigger

[57:28] than the award system and the and the

[57:32] ranked ballot and that's what i think

[57:37] i appreciate that encouragement sharon i

[57:40] i must admit

[57:41] uh personally that i i i

[57:44] balk a little bit around the question of

[57:47] how to improve voter

[57:49] turnout yeah if if five

[57:53] uh politicians working

[57:56] with the council of mono haven't figured

[57:59] out how to improve voter turnout

[58:02] not quite sure how our task force is

[58:05] going to come up with any silver bullets

[58:07] but you know i i i will not shirk the

[58:10] question

[58:10] i will include it in the report because

[58:13] uh

[58:14] you know what i'm hoping to do is draft

[58:16] something

[58:17] and then and then have bob and stefan

[58:20] and peter

[58:21] you know have the time to to think it

[58:23] through

[58:24] add to it you know and uh and then i

[58:28] think

[58:28] we can have another uh once we have kind

[58:32] of a draft in hand

[58:33] we can have a uh perhaps a uh

[58:37] a more useful a task force meeting

[58:40] where we we go through and kind of and

[58:43] more

[58:44] purposefully get on the same page with

[58:46] each other about

[58:47] uh what we want to take forward

[58:51] that sounds that sounds really good

[58:54] uh john can i say something please yes

[58:57] sir

[58:58] uh i i think uh to help focus um

[59:02] our efforts here uh and i have put it on

[59:05] on my you know i kept the purposely to

[59:07] one page

[59:08] uh there uh about the award system but

[59:12] uh the the second main point there was

[59:14] goals and benefits

[59:16] so uh specifically in my case this was

[59:20] of award system

[59:21] uh and uh it's uh i have been a goal

[59:26] oriented

[59:27] a person for a very long time uh

[59:30] and and um i've put down there some

[59:33] some goals uh and the benefits

[59:36] that i think and and i think that uh

[59:39] whatever we're considering

[59:41] uh it it's good to start with goals

[59:45] and one of them that's been mentioned

[59:47] here is is to increase

[59:48] a voter turnout i may naively believe

[59:53] this but but i do believe it is that a

[59:56] award system could actually

[59:59] increase the voter turnout but that

[1:00:01] would only be borne out

[1:00:03] uh if if we actually had that that

[1:00:05] that's a personal uh

[1:00:07] opinion about that so i i really do

[1:00:09] think that that you know we need to

[1:00:11] to look at at those goals um i

[1:00:14] i i have put down here my feelings on

[1:00:17] this

[1:00:18] and some people may disagree uh that

[1:00:20] those are in fact

[1:00:21] valid goals here um the the ranked

[1:00:25] ballot

[1:00:25] system uh we're we're discussing it

[1:00:29] because it is one that is used or has

[1:00:31] been used in different countries and the

[1:00:33] like

[1:00:34] um as as i see it um

[1:00:38] to for my way of thinking for mono uh

[1:00:40] that's nothing more than tinkering

[1:00:43] and uh for my way of thinking in fact

[1:00:46] does not achieve the goals or the

[1:00:48] benefits that i think are

[1:00:50] right i have said it in an email

[1:00:53] to the the committee members i'll say it

[1:00:56] here now because this is being recorded

[1:00:58] that a ranked ballot uh voting system

[1:01:02] in the 2018 election would not have made

[1:01:06] one a bit of difference because the the

[1:01:08] three incumbents who were elected

[1:01:11] uh got more than 50 percent of of

[1:01:14] the vote were cast yes no it would not

[1:01:18] have made any difference whatsoever

[1:01:20] there would not not have been a second

[1:01:21] round of counting

[1:01:23] that that that's interesting that you

[1:01:26] brought that up i didn't want to say

[1:01:27] that

[1:01:28] but but um you know fred and i tied with

[1:01:31] 26

[1:01:32] point something percent and ralph was

[1:01:35] ahead of us

[1:01:36] so you know it it just uh

[1:01:40] i i can't see how you could get that how

[1:01:43] it would change anything

[1:01:44] to have a ranked ballot in the church

[1:01:48] it would not have made any difference at

[1:01:50] all the three of you got over 50 percent

[1:01:54] of the votes that were cast

[1:01:56] yeah could i just add there didn't um

[1:02:00] wasn't it fred simpson who did the math

[1:02:02] going back

[1:02:03] to all the elections since 1974

[1:02:07] and made the same point i

[1:02:11] i i remember something about that

[1:02:14] memories getting

[1:02:15] you know yeah it's so smart but i do

[1:02:17] remember

[1:02:18] yeah i it was something along those

[1:02:21] lines

[1:02:22] uh okay let let me let me

[1:02:25] say this and and and it's an interesting

[1:02:27] thing

[1:02:28] i've lived up here for 25 or 26 years

[1:02:32] uh it's an interesting fact in rural

[1:02:34] politics

[1:02:35] that uh and it's a known fact that the

[1:02:37] incumbents

[1:02:38] uh have a a huge advantage

[1:02:42] over uh any challengers and that the

[1:02:45] only exception

[1:02:46] interestingly enough is the case that

[1:02:49] happened in the town of orangeville

[1:02:51] two years ago and where they were all

[1:02:54] thrown out

[1:02:56] all the incumbents were thrown out

[1:02:58] because that

[1:02:59] council was so dysfunctional that it was

[1:03:02] uh

[1:03:03] uh no nobody could ignore that fact

[1:03:07] so all of the incumbents whether they

[1:03:09] were good or not were thrown out

[1:03:11] and a whole new slate uh but uh it is a

[1:03:14] known fact uh

[1:03:16] general again to repeat that that uh in

[1:03:18] rural areas

[1:03:20] incumbents by far have a huger uh

[1:03:22] advantage over somebody new coming in

[1:03:25] and and what can you perceive is the

[1:03:28] problem with that

[1:03:29] bob just so i get the point well uh the

[1:03:32] problem with that

[1:03:33] is that it discourages uh new people

[1:03:36] from getting involved

[1:03:39] and we had diane wansley uh

[1:03:42] yo who bless her uh got involved in

[1:03:46] in the last one but it it absolutely

[1:03:48] discourages

[1:03:50] uh new people and other people from

[1:03:52] getting involved in it

[1:03:54] and and that to me is a problem well

[1:03:57] over that the only way we'd be able to

[1:03:58] do it would be to have

[1:04:00] we have to then have identity politics

[1:04:03] around

[1:04:03] newcomers and old comers

[1:04:07] now so that the that older votes count

[1:04:09] for older candidates or something like

[1:04:11] this i mean

[1:04:12] which i know you're joking so that won't

[1:04:14] happen but

[1:04:15] well right of course i'm joking but yeah

[1:04:18] but

[1:04:18] but it isn't it's a known fact well

[1:04:21] that's right

[1:04:22] i tell you uh from my point of view

[1:04:25] who someone who lives on a farm

[1:04:28] it's an operating farm we run our own

[1:04:31] farm books

[1:04:32] and i look around mono and i can and i

[1:04:34] say to myself increasingly

[1:04:36] you know um the the

[1:04:40] farm uh sector

[1:04:43] is very much different from what

[1:04:47] you're characterizing as the rural

[1:04:50] portion

[1:04:50] oh no and it's in my books entirely

[1:04:54] underrepresented these days but that's

[1:04:57] again

[1:04:57] that's a particular identity uh point of

[1:05:01] view

[1:05:02] john yes um

[1:05:06] just further to what bob is saying the

[1:05:09] first time i ran

[1:05:11] um i've been here i've been here for

[1:05:16] in the area for uh 50 so

[1:05:20] i'll uh over 50 years and

[1:05:23] uh i would say because

[1:05:26] i was involved in other things

[1:05:29] in the community because i was on

[1:05:32] uh committees of the town

[1:05:36] because i attended

[1:05:41] attended council meetings and

[1:05:45] took notes and talked to counselors

[1:05:48] because

[1:05:49] i was there that's what why i was

[1:05:52] elected the first time i've got no doubt

[1:05:54] name recognition she's part of the

[1:05:56] community she did this she did that

[1:05:59] that those are all things that are

[1:06:01] important diane wansley is

[1:06:03] case in point she is a fabulous person

[1:06:06] and i would love to see her on council

[1:06:09] not going to happen she's got three kids

[1:06:10] now

[1:06:11] but and they're too young so

[1:06:14] um but those are the things that people

[1:06:17] need to do

[1:06:18] if they want to be on council if they

[1:06:21] want to be part of the community you got

[1:06:23] to be there

[1:06:24] all the time

[1:06:27] i hear you clear loud and clear sharon

[1:06:29] and i really i'd really appreciate a

[1:06:32] page of

[1:06:34] of your thoughts written down just so i

[1:06:36] make sure

[1:06:37] that that is covered in our our draft

[1:06:39] report because i

[1:06:40] i really i uh i'm not sure that uh

[1:06:47] incumbency uh is a matter that really

[1:06:50] intersects

[1:06:51] too much with uh voter turnout and uh

[1:06:54] but uh both of these are matters that

[1:06:58] we can touch on in our report sure thank

[1:07:01] you

[1:07:05] so um with that uh

[1:07:08] with that said i think

[1:07:11] [Music]

[1:07:13] we've dealt with item six on the agenda

[1:07:15] which is

[1:07:16] and and five i think simultaneously

[1:07:19] which is a pretty good discussion

[1:07:21] of both of these topics and i've added a

[1:07:24] few more

[1:07:25] uh the next piece on the agenda is tasks

[1:07:28] outstanding and i just want to

[1:07:32] state again that i would take it upon

[1:07:36] myself

[1:07:36] if stefan and bob you're agreeable

[1:07:40] to putting together a first draft

[1:07:43] of uh at least you know a roughed out

[1:07:47] uh table of contents and some items

[1:07:50] around these

[1:07:51] topics some of the matters that have

[1:07:53] been raised and then i would get it to

[1:07:55] the members of the task force

[1:07:57] and we would uh add detract

[1:08:00] uh and fix to the point where

[1:08:05] we think it's worthwhile to have another

[1:08:07] meeting and talk

[1:08:08] about

[1:08:10] [Music]

[1:08:12] how our thoughts and advice are coming

[1:08:16] together

[1:08:17] bob uh stefan do you think that's a

[1:08:20] reasonable way to take this forward

[1:08:24] don't screw it to me stefan

[1:08:28] thank you stefan yeah it's it's bob uh

[1:08:30] yeah i i do agree yes

[1:08:33] uh john uh i don't know what you're

[1:08:36] going to include in that uh your next

[1:08:39] point uh no tasks outstanding i will

[1:08:42] well for example bob i would include

[1:08:45] your submission uh i think almost

[1:08:49] entirely and uh and identify it as as

[1:08:53] work that you've done and and if you

[1:08:55] want to

[1:08:56] uh as you suggested modify it a little

[1:08:59] bit

[1:09:00] uh you could do that either now or when

[1:09:03] you see it show up in a draft report

[1:09:05] yeah i

[1:09:06] i will draw up i i i like john's idea

[1:09:10] about

[1:09:10] rejigging a three-ward system so i will

[1:09:14] uh draw up a different one for that and

[1:09:16] i'll i'll send it in

[1:09:18] to everybody and yes please include that

[1:09:21] uh but also please i don't know you know

[1:09:24] again the the draft resolutions the

[1:09:26] the two here i i would like to see the

[1:09:29] the third suggestion

[1:09:31] about a referendum question on the 2022

[1:09:35] yes so i wrote that down

[1:09:38] and so in this draft report i will i

[1:09:41] will again you know

[1:09:42] towards the end of it include some draft

[1:09:46] final resolutions

[1:09:47] and that will be one of them so uh uh

[1:09:50] unless we get any objections you know uh

[1:09:54] in the intervening time i mean that's

[1:09:56] that's what i would proceed

[1:09:58] to include yeah perfect

[1:10:07] yup great thank you well

[1:10:10] with that uh having been uh

[1:10:14] dealt with and um i don't think there's

[1:10:16] any other business arising

[1:10:18] we've added the item that bob wished to

[1:10:21] under item eight on the agenda um

[1:10:26] in in peter's absence i will try to

[1:10:30] um i think we're supposed to come up

[1:10:33] with some minutes

[1:10:34] i'll put together something which i

[1:10:38] hope is as brief as peter's were the

[1:10:40] last time

[1:10:41] and get that done uh and uh

[1:10:45] get on to the uh the more useful matter

[1:10:49] of of drafting uh something for us to

[1:10:52] discuss

[1:10:55] uh john if if it's okay with everybody

[1:10:57] i'll i'll i'll

[1:10:58] um i wrote down some words about the the

[1:11:02] suggestion for a referendum

[1:11:04] uh let let me uh send you an email with

[1:11:06] a

[1:11:07] a a suggestion of of how that that

[1:11:10] resolution could be uh

[1:11:12] written up if that'll help you

[1:11:15] yes i've got jotted down here

[1:11:18] something along the alliance of a

[1:11:20] resolution that the town

[1:11:22] consider a non-binding referendum

[1:11:26] on uh what i heard to be a suggestion

[1:11:30] around

[1:11:30] almost all of these matters to do with

[1:11:34] um ward

[1:11:39] ward system voting or not or the current

[1:11:42] system

[1:11:43] and uh uh the current voting system or

[1:11:46] an electoral reform

[1:11:48] uh sorry a uh

[1:11:51] system so that it's framed around

[1:11:54] all of this subject matter so that if

[1:11:56] the council in fact

[1:11:58] doesn't wish to take any um decisions

[1:12:01] but

[1:12:02] wants to kick it further down the can

[1:12:04] down the road

[1:12:05] and they can do so through a referendum

[1:12:08] yeah god i i think that that's good i i

[1:12:10] did yeah i wrote the three down

[1:12:12] uh the question of current system ward

[1:12:14] system or ranked ballot you've said

[1:12:16] those i think that's perfect

[1:12:18] good i'll draft up something along those

[1:12:20] lines

[1:12:24] with that said i wish you all

[1:12:28] a safe december

[1:12:31] [Laughter]

[1:12:33] thank you may we stay in the same color

[1:12:36] whatever that color happens to be at the

[1:12:38] present time

[1:12:39] uh i hate hate to be the bearer of bad

[1:12:43] news but

[1:12:43] uh the word on the street is that uh

[1:12:46] friday will probably go to red

[1:12:50] well yeah

Electoral Reform Task Force - 09 Dec 2020

Transcript