[0:00] We would like to recognize Emma Snow who has not arrived.

[0:05] » [laughter] >> But, we will recognize her anyways and

[0:09] make sure she gets all this stuff and hopefully when she

[0:11] » Do you want me to read some stuff first and wait a bit?

[0:14] Should we wait? >> Yeah, yeah, let's just Let's do that.

[0:17] » Yeah, sit down. And I'll I'll just read all my boring stuff.

[0:21] You give me like the look when All right, as indicated on the screen, a

[0:25] required public hearing will be held for certain agenda items prior to council

[0:28] action. After each such item has been presented, time to comment will be

[0:32] provided for all those who wish to speak. For items that do not require

[0:35] public hearing, public comment will still be taken following presentation of

[0:38] the items, but will be limited to 10 minutes.

[0:41] At this time, up to 50 minutes have been set aside for an open public comment

[0:45] period which is intended to allow comments on matters that do not appear

[0:48] on the agenda, but are limited to topics regarding municipal business or within

[0:51] municipal council purview. Persons who speak during this time to an

[0:54] item that is on the agenda will not normally be afforded a second

[0:57] opportunity to speak during the comment period period specific to that item.

[1:02] During any public comment period, each speaker will generally be limited to 2

[1:05] minutes. Due to noticing requirements, no formal action will be taken in this

[1:08] meeting on matters that do not appear on the agenda.

[1:12] Now, we here yet? Okay, we're

[1:16] Okay, we're going to do public comment first then. Great. All right, so anyone

[1:21] who wants to do public comment is welcome to come up. If you want to If

[1:23] you're on Zoom, use the raise hand feature. And um we'll go between online

[1:27] and in-person comments, but come up now if you are ready have any public comment

[1:31] and you need your name and your city of residence.

[1:40] » My name is William Paul. I am a resident of the city of Provo.

[1:44] I'm here with a concern about the flock cameras that are pleth

[1:49] uh proliferating across the city. In the recent Chathri versus United

[1:55] States Supreme Court decision 2 months ago.

[1:58] This was ruled highly illegal. Because we have a reasonable expectation

[2:04] in our privacy. Now, if I were to do that and start

[2:09] following one of you around with a camera, I would be charged with the

[2:12] crime. Berkshire Drive, Lakewood Drive, 1060

[2:17] East, 2100 West, 3950 North, 1150 East. These cameras are used not only by

[2:28] our officers to solve crimes, but to commit crimes. We have people with that

[2:33] are victims of domestic violence, stalking, public public public protected

[2:39] parties, public citizens, US senators that are all being followed by these

[2:46] promises by these cameras. The city cannot track them.

[2:52] But we have officers who do not understand the very basics of the First

[2:57] Amendment. But that's of little surprise.

[3:01] Our officers do not understand free speech, nor do our school officials.

[3:06] They openly retaliate against it. Yes, I name names.

[3:11] And that shouldn't surprise us because we started this meeting with a prayer,

[3:15] which is also blatantly unconstitutional.

[3:20] Thank you. >> Thank you.

[3:22] Anyone else want to give public comment?

[3:30] We just need your name and your city of residence.

[3:33] That's great. >> Um My name is Emma Sorenson, residence

[3:38] in Provo. Um I know you guys met a couple weeks ago

[3:41] about updating parks and sidewalks with like certain ADA

[3:46] um updates. And I was just wondering if and how

[3:50] there would be input from people with disabilities on those things before they

[3:55] happen. Cuz sometimes those kind of updates are things where

[4:00] able-bodied people just don't really know that they don't know certain

[4:03] things. And I know there are certain ADA standards and guidelines, but even

[4:08] sometimes those things are left open to interpretation or there's

[4:12] like windows and you could go somewhere in that thing. So, I was just wondering

[4:17] and if you guys have any say in that, if that's something you guys could put in

[4:20] place before those steps happen. Um yeah, I think that's basically

[4:25] » Okay. Thank you. Mayor, who should we connect her with?

[4:30] Me. All right. Thanks, Emma. So, go to staff and

[4:35] they'll get Oh, you already have her contact info. Okay. She knows you. She's

[4:39] going to contact you. Thank you.

[4:43] All right, any other public comment?

[4:49] All right, we are going to now hear from Carla.

[4:53] » This is employee of the month. >> It is. And Emma, I'm going to make you

[4:56] come up here. She already hates me for this whole thing.

[5:00] » [laughter]

[5:08] » It is our pleasure to recognize Emma Snow as our employee of the month. Emma

[5:13] is the library's day porter. She plays an essential and essential role in

[5:16] keeping our building clean, welcoming, and running smoothly during our busiest

[5:20] hours. She consistently delivers high-quality work, takes ownership of

[5:24] her responsibilities, and can always be counted on to follow through. She

[5:27] doesn't simply wait to be asked. She sees what needs to be done, and she does

[5:30] it. What truly sets her apart is the pride

[5:33] she takes in her work and the service she provides to everyone who comes

[5:36] through our building. She regularly get goes above and beyond helping us create

[5:40] a welcoming place for our staff and visitors to spend time. Daily, she makes

[5:44] a meaningful contribution to the library and the city. We are a better place

[5:47] because she is part of our team and we are truly privileged to work alongside

[5:51] her. Congratulations on this well-deserved recognition.

[6:01] We take pictures. Want to get picture with your team, Carla? And we'll all

[6:05] stand up behind.

[6:47] Thank you. Congratulations.

[6:55] All right, we only have one other item of business today, an ordinance

[6:59] regarding outdoor lighting standards. This will be presented by Britain

[7:01] Johnson and he's our council intern right now.

[7:10] » Okay, good evening, counselors. Um yeah, this feels like my debut. I'm

[7:14] excited to go over this item. Um so, uh today we're going to go over

[7:19] some dark sky updates to the city's outdoor lighting code.

[7:23] Um and

[7:25] uh some of the principles that were used to

[7:29] uh make some of these updates uh is from this document that um is co-published

[7:34] with the Illuminating Engineering Society and Dark Sky International that

[7:38] um have put on these five principles for responsible outdoor lighting.

[7:42] And to condense this even further, it's basically about using the right

[7:46] kind of light and and controlling it to be only where we want to see it, um

[7:51] which is not in the sky. And the aim with some of these policy changes

[7:56] or proposals, I should say, um is to reduce atmospheric light pollution in

[8:00] our city. So, the first significant proposed

[8:03] change to our code is to require um a cap on correlated color temperature,

[8:10] which is how warm or how cool light looks visually. Um this will only apply

[8:14] to new developments and any replacements or remodels. So, no existing uh

[8:20] properties or light fixtures. Um and the cap, except for a few exceptions, is

[8:24] 3,000 K or less, which is that neutral white there or warmer.

[8:29] Um and those longer wavelengths um

[8:32] with the warmer lights um contribute less to atmospheric light pollution.

[8:37] Secondly, is requiring full shielding for all fixtures, and the same applies.

[8:41] Um this will not be retroactive. This will only be for new developments,

[8:45] remodels, and full fixture replacements, which I'll clarify even further later.

[8:50] So, fully shielded fixtures imply that the light is fully recessed in the

[8:54] fixture, is directed downward, and that none of the light escapes that's called

[8:59] the 90° plane. Um if you look in the cutoff part of this graphic, um that's

[9:05] kind of the 90° is where the light is. We don't want anything

[9:08] um going above that into the night sky. Um and then lastly is a small change to

[9:13] our um off-premises electronic display sign code to put it more uh

[9:20] or to align it better with our on-premises electronic display sign code

[9:24] in title six of Provo City code. Um and that caps the uh number of nits, which

[9:30] measures the surface brightness of a sign, to 300 during nighttime hours um

[9:35] and 5,000 during daylight hours. Um,

[9:39] another question that was, um, that was asked during our our work

[9:44] meeting discussions on this topic was how this would affect current residences

[9:48] and residential outdoor lighting. And, um, in number six here on the screenshot

[9:53] it says any existing outdoor lighting fixture attached to a structure on a

[9:57] residential property as of today's date is exempt from this change. So, that

[10:02] means if a light bulb needs to be replaced and it's super blue light, um,

[10:07] you could replace it with a blue light that doesn't meet the the color

[10:10] temperature standards that we're proposing. However, if the entire

[10:13] fixture needs to be replaced, then this exemption no longer applies.

[10:18] Um, as I mentioned, this will only apply to, um,

[10:23] to new lights going forward. Um, and exemptions are made for holiday

[10:27] lights, uh, the airport, construction lighting,

[10:30] temporary event lighting, and outdoor sports lighting as it says there.

[10:33] Um, Kevin, if you could go to the ordinance. Um, there was requested, um,

[10:38] during the, uh, work meeting discussion today about

[10:42] holiday lighting. I wanted to, um, show that. It's in the exemption

[10:47] section. It's number one below 15.21.04.

[10:52] And it says, um, holiday lighting that does not create dangerous glare on

[10:56] adjacent streets or property is considered exempt. And all holiday

[10:59] lighting, um, now has a curfew and must be turned off by 10:00 p.m. nightly.

[11:04] Okay? Um, and then other than that, if you

[11:07] could go back to the presentation, please.

[11:11] Um, I wanted to show what some of the practical impacts of a

[11:16] change like this could look like. Um, this is in Moab, Utah. Um, they

[11:20] implemented a dark sky policy for their lighting. And before that policy was

[11:24] introduced, you can see the lights appear very, or the streets, excuse me,

[11:29] appear very dim, but the the night sky is pretty visible. Um however, when that

[11:34] same light that was used before is directed downward where it's supposed to

[11:37] go in the after photo, you can see how much more well-illuminated the streets

[11:41] are, um reducing glare on drivers and um giving a perception of safety um that

[11:47] our our residents deserve. And on top of that, the the night sky is much darker.

[11:52] Um and so, on the right on this slide shows what is um

[11:57] a spec similar to what's being installed by the city now on the left as of about

[12:01] 2 years ago um that would meet these these dark sky compliant standards um

[12:05] versus one on the right which are um some of our older fixtures that don't

[12:10] accomplish that saving. And uh with that, uh that's all I have

[12:14] to share. >> Thank you, Britain.

[12:17] All right, we'll open this item up for public comment. Anyone have a question

[12:20] for Britain before we do that? Councilor Garrett.

[12:25] » Just a comment, Britain, on those two photos from Moab. I think you made the

[12:28] point earlier that they were taken at the same time of day on different

[12:32] » Yes, so these are both both in the evening hours and it's kind of difficult

[12:36] on this projector screen, but that same building on the left is visible in the

[12:41] after photo, also in the before photo. >> Mhm.

[12:43] » Um so, I'd encourage anyone to go to the packet um at agendas.provo.gov

[12:48] if they want to see that picture a little clearer.

[12:52] » All right, thanks, Britain. >> Okay.

[12:54] » Any public comment on this item?

[13:01] » Hello, my name is Gavin. I'm a resident of Provo. Um

[13:04] this is the first I'm hearing about this, but I just have some questions. Um

[13:08] uh what's the benefit of having a dark sky for at least the citizens of Provo?

[13:12] Uh my wife, she works at a national park, and so there's obviously a benefit

[13:15] for Moab to have that, but I'm specifically asking about Provo. And

[13:19] then um with the Christmas lights, does is that

[13:23] only for new What's the word?

[13:27] New buildings for the Christmas light enforcement, is that for all citizens of

[13:30] Provo the Christmas light enforcement and how is that going to be enforced? I

[13:33] feel like it would be cool to have a cop come to your house or

[13:37] a ticket to your house during the holidays, but there's some questions on

[13:41] that. >> Thank you. We'll address all the

[13:42] questions after comment period. Any more comments?

[13:49] All right. First of all, the Christmas lights, they are exempt. So, no one will

[13:52] get you know, the

[13:55] Now, after 10, it's good I think it's going to be one

[13:57] of those things we are generally a complaint based enforcement system. So,

[14:02] if it's bugging your neighbors and they it's going through their little windows

[14:05] and they're irritated, we could get a phone call and then they would come by.

[14:09] Yeah, exactly. We don't want you to be Mr. Christmas Vacation.

[14:13] Um and >> And it's all holiday lighting, not just

[14:16] Christmas lights. >> yeah. So, and then there was another

[14:18] question. Oh, the dark sky. Uh due to the same reason it is valuable

[14:23] at Moab, right? It's better for animals, it's better for people

[14:27] sleeping, it's better for people who do want to see the stars or not have

[14:31] everything, you know, lit up. It's just better for

[14:33] the environment and quality of life is the idea. Is there anything else you

[14:36] want to add to that, Jeff?

[14:40] » Yeah, I think um one other thing I'll say to the first

[14:43] question is a lot of times uh laws are not necessarily just to be

[14:48] enforced by police. There's norms we try to create as a society that help us, you

[14:52] know, live together in a community and so I think that's what we we're also

[14:56] trying to do here is just trying to collectively say that um you know, this

[15:00] is better for the quality of life of Provo to see the majesty of the night

[15:03] sky. Provo is blessed by nature and I think the more things we can do to show

[15:08] that we cherish that, I think the better.

[15:12] » Okay, Counselor Bogdan. Hey, so I'm old,

[15:17] but when I first moved to Provo, I was probably your age with young kids.

[15:21] And there's a cul-de-sac behind me. And that light is so bright. It shined

[15:27] into my baby's windows and that's really hard. Do you have young kids?

[15:32] When you have young kids, it's really hard. So, I have in every single room in

[15:37] my house, I have blackout curtains. Not Walmart Winnie blackout curtains. I

[15:42] have some serious blackout curtains. And even still today, I represent West

[15:47] Provo. And when they opened up the Lakeview Parkway past the high school, I

[15:52] had one of our residents come to me and say, "They just put in those new

[15:56] streetlights and now I can see it through my window. What do I do?" So,

[15:59] even though those are the not so bright ones as it was 25 years ago when I moved

[16:05] into my home, right? It still does cause a problem. Now, I'm

[16:09] going to put it on the flip side. And I was at my sister's house when my

[16:14] brother-in-law died. And Springville is so dark. You can't

[16:18] even really see. So, I appreciate that. And one of the things that last year

[16:24] Provo Power did is they put out the reason why

[16:28] Provo has a power company is because the residents here wanted streetlights.

[16:33] So, I I think I think having this ordinance helps us

[16:37] have that light. And I am one that fought hard for the holiday lights to

[16:43] stay up because we are

[16:46] Christmas lighters and we are Halloween lighters.

[16:50] And it's a whole community thing. It brings my entire neighborhood to my

[16:53] home. So, those things those things are

[16:56] important. It brings in community.

[16:59] But you have to have that balance, right?

[17:03] And and that's what we're trying to look at. And then also when you have

[17:07] some of these big electronic signs that come into your neighborhood, that also

[17:11] leaves you with no sleep and so you're just like zombied out. And it all of it

[17:16] is that balance that helps.

[17:23] » Okay, on I was what

[17:26] Go ahead Rachel welcome. >> Well, and I can add one more thing is

[17:29] that as we adopt these standards that we have for our city whenever Udot or

[17:34] another entity does work in it, then we have standards in place. So, when Udot

[17:39] redid 300 South and they put in the new lights there,

[17:43] those are not the fully shielded lights. And I live on 3rd South right next to

[17:49] one of those lights and my entire house is illuminated like all the way through

[17:54] the house because of that. You know, we've we've had to do blackout curtains

[17:57] as well. And so, while we will not be making Udot

[18:00] go and change the fixtures that they've got, it means that in the future they

[18:05] will be doing these more directed lights that are more safe for the community and

[18:10] avoid the negative impacts for residents and animals. So, I think it'll be a

[18:15] really good thing to have. >> Now, to be clear like you mentioned

[18:20] holiday lights and Britain with um like with general white lights under

[18:25] your the eaves, like that's not what we're talking about as far as it have to

[18:29] be unplugged, right? It's more the brighter, all the things going on at

[18:33] once.

[18:36] » Um so, Brian and I um the city attorney actually discussed this and this might

[18:40] be something that comes back to the council um to specify exactly what a

[18:45] holiday light means and really clearly define that.

[18:48] Um but one of the discussion points was about um like permanent outdoor LED

[18:53] lights that depending on the season, you can change the color. If there's a

[18:58] Timpview or Provo High football game or other sporting event, you can rep your

[19:03] colors like those. Um

[19:07] » I think this is still a piece we need to like clear up with the

[19:10] » a piece that we need to iron out. Um and so this might be coming back to your

[19:13] consideration to um, as far as figuring out that

[19:17] definition and being very specific with those details. But for now,

[19:21] um, our city attorney feels comfortable with the language that's in the

[19:23] ordinance.

[19:26] » Yeah, to piggyback on that, I I mean, I think I think there's going to need to

[19:30] be some more study done, but we didn't want as Britain and I talked, I think

[19:34] what he's added in there gives us an immediate exception so that

[19:39] you don't have to worry about somebody going out and enforcing tomorrow while

[19:43] we study things. Um,

[19:46] and we also didn't want to go the other way and say we need more time before you

[19:50] can pass any of it. So, I think that I think that this works for what was

[19:53] expressed in the work session, but holiday lighting is not actually defined

[19:58] in the code and so then there's this whole question of what does what does

[20:00] that mean? >> There's a lot of the basic just basic

[20:04] lights that people have are totally fine all the time. Like they're not, you

[20:07] know, so we need to somehow how we need to somehow differentiate between a

[20:10] nuisance and

[20:12] » Right. >> normal. Like you know.

[20:14] » Yeah, because everything I mean, everything that's under

[20:17] Everything that Everything that's underneath the eaves and underneath

[20:21] 3,000 Kelvin is already in compliance. So, we're only talking about things that

[20:26] aren't. >> Yeah.

[20:27] » Um, and that's where we've got the holiday lighting. And then one of the

[20:30] comments I made to Britain is, you know, we talked about about these jellyfish

[20:35] lights often being shielded because they're under the eaves, but not all

[20:38] holiday lights are under the eaves. Some people string their holiday lights out

[20:41] around the around the frame, right? So, I think that there's more going to need

[20:47] to be done on the holiday {slash} jellyfish

[20:50] issue, but I think this gets us somewhere where you can

[20:54] » Okay, so we'll follow up on this soon and clean it up.

[20:58] » Yeah. >> But you think it's worth it's okay to

[20:59] pass now as it is. >> so, yes.

[21:01] » Okay. >> I don't think this penalizes something

[21:04] that you're not meaning to penalize. It might be too permissive, but we can come

[21:08] back and tweak that after. >> Okay. All right. Thank you.

[21:11] » Yeah, you're welcome. >> All right. Any Any more comments anyone

[21:14] else has?

[21:17] All right. We'll call on a vote on the implied motion. Are you still with us,

[21:20] Travis?

[21:24] Councillor Hopin. >> I sure am.

[21:28] » Your vote? >> Yes.

[21:29] » All right. Councillor Whipple.

[21:32] » Yes. >> Councillor Bogden.

[21:33] » Yes. >> Councillor Whitlock.

[21:35] » Yes. >> Councillor McKay, yes. Councillor

[21:38] Garrett. >> Yes.

[21:40] » All right. That passes 6-0. And if there's no objection, we will now

[21:45] adjourn the Provisional Council by unanimous consent.

Provo City Council Meeting | August 25, 2026

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