[0:14] Join me in the pledge allegiance.

[0:17] I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America.

[0:22] And to the Republic for which it stands.

[0:24] One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

[0:30] The Goffstown Zoning Board

[0:33] is an elected board

[0:36] of five members and up to five alternates appointed by the Zoning Board.

[0:39] Currently, the board has five elected members and four alternates.

[0:43] If anyone is interested in serving on the CBA, please

[0:46] contact the Planning Zoning Office at Town Hall for more information.

[0:50] The board has a posted agenda for each meeting and tends

[0:53] to follow the items in order.

[0:55] The board will open the public

[0:56] hearing on an application to receive testimony from applicants,

[0:59] butters, and affected parties, and ask questions about the appeal.

[1:03] The public hearing will then be closed, and the board will enter

[1:06] into a deliberative session to discuss the merits of the appeal.

[1:10] For each application, the board will decide to approve,

[1:13] approve with conditions, deny or continue the public hearing to a later meeting.

[1:18] You are welcome to watch the deliberations this evening.

[1:20] Or you can call the zoning department at (600) 349-7899 zero, extension 815.

[1:27] To get the results for an applicant's request to be approved,

[1:31] there must be an affirmative vote of at least three members.

[1:34] An applicant can request a continuance if there is not a full five member board

[1:39] to act on an application.

[1:40] Tonight we do have a full board.

[1:44] If you, the applicant and a butter or any party to the action are aggrieved

[1:48] by a decision made by the CBA tonight, you have the right to appeal

[1:52] to the Superior Court or the New Hampshire Housing Appeals Board.

[1:55] However, before appealing, you must request you must request

[1:59] a rehearing with this board to preserve your right to appeal.

[2:03] Rehearing request must be filed within 30 days of the decision,

[2:06] and state all reasons why the decision was unlawful or unreasonable.

[2:11] Failure to request a rehearing may forfeit your ability to appeal.

[2:15] And now we'll go through and do board introductions.

[2:18] Jack.

[2:19] Jack.

[2:20] Sheppard, buildings code Enforcement and zone..

[2:23] John Belville, member.

[2:25] Kristen Dawes, alternate.

[2:26] Jason Cody, vice chair.

[2:28] Davis Allen, alternate.

[2:31] Bruce Buttrick member.

[2:33] Charlie Farley, alternate.

[2:35] Leonard Stewart member.

[2:37] Joanne Duffy, planning and economic development director.

[2:40] Thank you everybody.

[2:43] We'll start.

[2:44] Let's see.

[2:45] Put the agenda somewhere.

[2:48] And put mine so you can see it as well.

[2:50] Thank you.

[2:53] You don't have the right.

[2:55] So we'll go through and do the August 4th, 2020 six minutes.

[2:59] Do we have any corrections or emotions?

[3:02] Yeah.

[3:12] I never said the hardship is the ordinance,

[3:14] not the physical condition of the property.

[3:16] This should be deleted.

[3:17] Okay.

[3:18] That's really clear.

[3:19] That's not what it was. Okay.

[3:21] So please, please note that in the record to have that corrected.

[3:26] What page was that on.

[3:28] Page five of nine.

[3:38] The ordinance cannot be the hardship.

[3:44] Anyone else?

[3:50] Motion to make a motion as amended.

[3:54] Motion from Bruce.

[3:56] Second. Second. By Mr. Belliveau.

[3:58] All those in favor? All right.

[4:01] Oh. I'm sorry, I have to appoint an alternate.

[4:04] Kristen, you can vote on the minutes, please.

[4:06] All those in favor?

[4:08] I opposed one abstention.

[4:11] Motion carries.

[4:20] All right.

[4:22] First up on the docket, Beth Gage.

[4:25] Applicant is appealing an administrative decision

[4:27] from the code enforcement officer that an existing approval.

[4:31] I'm sorry.

[4:31] An existing approved preschool, kindergarten group, child care center,

[4:35] infant and toddler care and school age facility

[4:39] doesn't need an additional approval or a conditional use permit from the

[4:43] Goffstown Planning Board to allow for a summer camp program

[4:47] as part of the approved child care center facility.

[4:50] The applicant is appealing the decision under sections 1.2.2,

[4:54] 1.3.7, 3.2.3

[4:58] and 15.4 of the Goffstown Zoning Ordinance.

[5:01] The property, known as the Gage Farm Schoolhouse, is located at 215 Wallace

[5:05] Road Map five, lot 73, owned by 215 Wallace Road LLC.

[5:11] Zoned agricultural.

[5:13] And if those applicants are here, you can come on up.

[5:16] Please just let us know who you are and your address, please.

[5:22] For someone who started out with.

[5:25] I'm 205 Wallace Road.

[5:28] I've lived there for almost 39 years.

[5:33] The I.

[5:37] The whole thing started by.

[5:40] If I have the right

[5:42] planning board, granted a conditional use permit in 2020

[5:46] to the previous owners before the Roberta's purchased it,

[5:50] it was granted for group child daycare,

[5:53] which is up to five school age children.

[5:58] I'm not arguing anything, except

[6:03] the school's gotten more intense and use.

[6:05] They've got a lot more school age programs,

[6:10] and they haven't been approved for only up to five school age kids.

[6:15] I just feel that they should go to the planning board to have it revisited.

[6:19] For the additional use of the property.

[6:21] They can evaluate whether they want to approve it or not.

[6:25] They can

[6:27] look at the site plan and see if it's it's

[6:30] adequate for what they're doing now because it's just more intense.

[6:34] And and I know for me it affects me.

[6:38] It's a lot louder.

[6:40] I couldn't do I couldn't say anything if it was just just a daycare.

[6:43] It's approved and I understand that.

[6:45] But where they've opened the door to a lot older kids,

[6:50] that that's why I'm here, because I used to like

[6:53] just I could enjoy my yard.

[6:56] And now it's like all summer long, there's kids outside screaming

[6:59] all day long and I can't use my windows are shut.

[7:04] My just it's it's different.

[7:06] It's intense. It's more of a business.

[7:07] And you know, the only thing I can really say is that

[7:11] there's like a lot more older kids, which it wasn't approved for.

[7:15] So I think you should just go

[7:16] to the planning board again to have them revisit it.

[7:19] Okay. All right. So you are

[7:23] right.

[7:24] This is not the way that I read this.

[7:26] So that's very interesting.

[7:28] But well I mean it. Has been approved.

[7:31] It it is true for school age kids but.

[7:34] Up to five school age kids.

[7:35] So you know it can't argue that.

[7:38] But more intense they they were the property

[7:42] was granted a conditional use permit for a group child day care center.

[7:47] There was no amount of kids that was limited to

[7:50] I was naive, I've I've lived next to the school that was there before.

[7:55] For what?

[7:55] I don't know, 20 years.

[7:56] And it was fine.

[7:58] I, I saw the kids playing.

[8:00] It was outside where they were playing.

[8:02] It's completely different.

[8:03] So I was naive to what it could turn into.

[8:06] But the only thing I can, you know, address right now is the age of the kids.

[8:11] So if they were to go back to five or less school age

[8:15] kids, there's really nothing I could say.

[8:17] But the way things are now, I think it should be revisited

[8:21] to the planning board because a day it's a day camp right now at the summer summer

[8:27] camps get school aged kids so it doesn't fall under group child daycare.

[8:32] And that's a specific conditional use permit

[8:36] that the planning board is authorized to approve.

[8:41] Okay.

[8:42] 22 so

[8:45] I'm going to open up the public hearing.

[8:48] I'm going to start with Joanne is representing the town.

[8:51] Sure. Hi.

[8:53] For those of you who don't know me and for the record, I'm Joanne.

[8:57] Excuse me, I'm Joanne Duffy.

[8:58] I'm the planning and economic development director for the town.

[9:02] I've been involved with this

[9:05] probably from when Beth started to.

[9:09] 2025.

[9:11] So I've kind of been in and out of it for just over a year.

[9:17] So I've been sent here to represent the town on this issue.

[9:21] So to start out with in 20,

[9:25] I can't even talk 2020.

[9:28] November of 2020, we had a request that came to the planning board.

[9:33] There were four people involved, two owners

[9:36] and two who wanted to open up a group childcare center.

[9:39] And they came to the planning board and they asked for a waiver of site

[9:44] plan approval.

[9:45] Because we had the site plan from New Morning School.

[9:48] It was a 1986 site plan, but it was still basically

[9:53] very, very similar to what these people wanted to do.

[9:56] The only changes that they made was there were some red line versions.

[10:00] You'll notice

[10:01] there were two copies in the packet that was left on the table tonight.

[10:05] One was the original 1986 and the red line was from 2020.

[10:11] They presented that to the Planning Board.

[10:14] In the Planning Board,

[10:17] they had

[10:17] asked the Planning Board to waive an engineered site plan in place of

[10:21] this site plan that they were presenting with the red lines on it.

[10:25] The planning board approved that, and at the same time they were asking

[10:29] for permission for a group child care center,

[10:32] which in zoning ordinance requires

[10:35] in the agricultural district anyway, it requires a conditional use permit.

[10:39] And that was also granted.

[10:42] They they started doing their homework and started looking into the building

[10:47] more and found out that what they really wanted to do

[10:50] was to expensive, and they never went forward with it.

[10:54] They never applied to the state for their license or anything.

[10:58] A few months later, we were then approached by another applicant

[11:02] who was the current owner, and that was in 2021, and they were asking

[11:08] for a preschool kindergarten, similar to a new morning school.

[11:13] Who who were the original owners back started in the 70s, I believe.

[11:18] Now kindergartens

[11:19] are permitted use in our zoning ordinance,

[11:22] so they didn't need a conditional use permit to do a kindergarten.

[11:26] And that's, that's, you know, written in our ordinance itself.

[11:30] So the

[11:33] the things that they were looking at was the same red line

[11:36] versions that were shown to us in 2020.

[11:39] They had agreed that they wanted to do the same.

[11:43] The original playground, when it was new morning school,

[11:46] the original playground was towards the road.

[11:48] There was a small like

[11:51] I forget what those fences are called, but like a split rail fence.

[11:54] And then the playground was right there.

[11:56] And these kids that are out there are like three, 4 or 5 years old.

[12:00] So they decided it was safer to

[12:02] move the children in the back and have their play area back there.

[12:06] So they made some slight changes like that,

[12:09] but it was in accordance with the red lines version that was shown.

[12:13] And so we heard we met with them at a technical review

[12:18] committee meeting with staff, excuse me and staff.

[12:24] We all

[12:24] agreed that it wasn't a change compared to what the planning board

[12:28] had previously approved just a few months earlier,

[12:31] and that they didn't

[12:32] need to go back to the planning board because it was typically the same thing.

[12:36] The only thing they did not need was the conditional use permit,

[12:39] so they were not sent back to the planning board at that point.

[12:43] Can I interrupt.

[12:44] They can I?

[12:47] Can you.

[12:48] Hold on? You'll be able. To.

[12:50] Respond back.

[12:51] Because I'll lose my train of thought.

[12:54] So under the New Hampshire Health and Human Services, there are eight

[12:58] categories of child care programs that they licensed through the state.

[13:03] There's a family child care home.

[13:05] There's a family group, child care home.

[13:07] There's a group child care center.

[13:10] There's an infant toddler program.

[13:12] There's a preschool program.

[13:13] There's a school age program.

[13:15] There's a night care program.

[13:17] And the last one is a residential care residential child care program.

[13:23] The Gage School has four out of those eight,

[13:28] they have a group childcare, the infant toddler program,

[13:32] the preschool program, and the school age program.

[13:36] Our ordinance does not break down

[13:39] all of these uses, even though you'll find

[13:43] I'm not sure about the night care or the residential child care.

[13:47] Not familiar with those, but the rest of them.

[13:50] We allow these uses in our town.

[13:52] It might not say the same exact language in our ordinance,

[13:55] but they're similar in in uses

[13:59] like we don't have anything in there that says school age program.

[14:03] Yet there are many childcare agencies in this town that have school

[14:06] age programs, preschool programs, things like that.

[14:10] So most of the time when someone comes in, it falls under one of the others.

[14:16] But it's not.

[14:18] It's the ordinance itself needs work.

[14:20] It's not very specific.

[14:23] So when

[14:26] but what we do provide is when someone comes forward

[14:30] and they have to go

[14:32] after they meet with us, they go to the state for their license approval.

[14:36] There is a zoning verification form that needs to be approved and signed off

[14:40] by either the zoning person in town, or

[14:44] in one particular one that we passed in your packet.

[14:48] I believe you have copies of it.

[14:49] There's two different ones.

[14:51] One is from 2021 and the other one is from 2024.

[14:55] One was signed by the town administrator.

[14:57] I think he was filling in at the time because we didn't have a zoning person,

[15:02] but there's a section on there that says any conditions.

[15:07] And the way it was explained to us

[15:10] through email from the state was that if you had an issue where you didn't

[15:16] want to allow someone to do a specific thing like a camp or

[15:22] a summer camp or after school care or something like that,

[15:26] then you would write it in that section in the state, would not allow them to

[15:32] receive that type of a license,

[15:35] but when they are approved by the town to be

[15:38] there as a child care facility

[15:41] and you don't have any restrictions on there, then they can go and apply

[15:45] for any of those licenses that I just read off to you.

[15:48] And this is what they did.

[15:50] And they applied for four of them.

[15:53] So the number of students also comes into play on that form.

[15:58] You typically you would have the first instance

[16:02] when the zoning officer signed off, she had put to be determined

[16:06] by the fire department because it's all based on square footage.

[16:11] That was the first time that when they first opened, the second time, once

[16:14] they were already established, the town administrator knew the number and put 65.

[16:19] And that's the number that's still in effect today. So

[16:24] so that's the type of things that go on that form.

[16:27] And I'm not familiar with how the state works with this process.

[16:31] I don't know if they ask for this zoning verification every so many years

[16:36] when the license is about to be due.

[16:39] I don't know how that works.

[16:41] That's out of my ballpark, but but I have found only

[16:45] two of them in the file, and that's all we have so far for that particular school.

[16:51] I have photographs that we took.

[16:55] I think they were actually taken online.

[16:59] We didn't physically go out there and take them, but I can pass them around

[17:03] and you'll see that there is a very large treed buffer

[17:11] between the two parcels.

[17:13] This is the school area over here.

[17:17] And this is Mrs.

[17:19] Home over here on this side.

[17:21] But I'll just pass this around and you can take a look at them.

[17:24] So there's it's quite a dense treed area

[17:28] which should help with some some of the noise.

[17:35] The next thing is in night in,

[17:41] in. Let me just catch my.

[17:44] Oh, and one thing I failed to say when the first people came in in 2020,

[17:51] they called themselves a group child daycare center.

[17:55] However, at the time that they asked for a waiver of the engineered plans

[17:59] and the conditional use permit in their application, they also said that

[18:03] they were going to be doing after school care.

[18:08] And it would be open from 6:30 a.m.

[18:10] to 6 p.m.

[18:11] so if they had gone forward, they would have been doing the same thing.

[18:15] We just never saw that happen because they never went forward.

[18:22] The. Specific sections of the zoning ordinance

[18:27] that the applicant mentioned is,

[18:32] was listed on her application.

[18:35] And the

[18:38] the items seem to be very vague.

[18:42] The first one has to do with relationship to other laws, ordinances, regulations.

[18:47] Whenever one provision is stricter than the other,

[18:50] you always go towards the more restrictive one.

[18:54] The second one is to conserve conserve property values

[18:57] by preventing harmful encroachment of incompatible uses.

[19:02] Or, as I stated before,

[19:03] kindergarten is a permitted use in the agricultural district.

[19:07] The third one is use is permitted by conditional use permit.

[19:11] And I know that she had mentioned in her text that she feels

[19:16] that this needs a conditional use permit, but it's a kindergarten.

[19:20] So again, I don't mean to be repetitive, but it doesn't require one.

[19:25] And then the other one was that the planning board

[19:28] shall have the authority to grant conditional use permit, which is correct.

[19:32] But again they don't need a conditional use permit.

[19:34] So I'm not really sure

[19:37] what the actual appeal is all about.

[19:43] The I did receive a phone call from someone who is in a butter,

[19:48] not in a butter.

[19:49] I'm sorry, who is a resident of on Ridgewood Avenue,

[19:52] and they were complaining to me about traffic.

[19:56] And as most of you probably travel

[19:58] Wallace Road at some point in time, it is a busy road.

[20:01] It's been a busy road for years and years.

[20:04] It goes it goes from Goffstown to Bedford and then further on as you continue

[20:10] through the Bedford area, it's I think the name changes,

[20:14] but it still continues on to, I think, Merrimack.

[20:17] It's a it's a road that lots of people use,

[20:20] especially during rush hour in the morning, in the evening.

[20:24] But it's the traffic is certainly not coming from the school itself.

[20:29] When New Morning was there, there were a lot of problems with parking,

[20:32] especially when they had little graduation ceremonies

[20:35] and they had special events and things like that.

[20:39] Come and meet the teacher type things.

[20:41] And the cars used to park on Wallace Road, and it caused quite an issue.

[20:46] And there wasn't as much traffic back

[20:48] then, just they they've been closed now for years,

[20:52] but the the current owners

[20:54] have made provisions for parking for special event types.

[20:59] They don't use it on a normal basis, but only when they have special events

[21:02] and they park in the

[21:03] in the back of the property so as not to disturb the neighbors.

[21:07] And it's not to cause any confusion out on Wallace with all of the traffic.

[21:11] So they've taken steps to try to alleviate any problems with traffic.

[21:16] And traffic was not an appeal to you here.

[21:18] So I don't think the zoning board should even really be discussing it.

[21:23] The applicant

[21:26] has said here and she just

[21:29] she has it in her text, and she's also mentioned it before that,

[21:33] that the project is not approved for more than five school age children.

[21:38] But if you read through, I included a list in your packet

[21:42] of the different types of daycare centers and the ones that I just read off to you.

[21:47] There's definitions for each one, and in our ordinance it says group child

[21:53] daycare cannot have more than five school age children,

[21:56] which means five after school care or before school care.

[22:00] Children, typically the school age children are up to age 12.

[22:05] And that that's that's fine,

[22:10] except that the license, the state overrides that

[22:14] because the license itself allows for

[22:18] as many as you want

[22:21] up to your limitation of the 65 at any one time.

[22:24] So you can't have, you know,

[22:28] 100 kids there

[22:30] and say, well, but those are only school age.

[22:33] You can only have the maximum that's allowed.

[22:35] And I don't know if you can. Mix the ages.

[22:38] Again, I don't know all of the rules of the state, only the ones I looked into.

[22:42] So I don't know if they can be mixed ages at the same time.

[22:46] I'm not sure about that, but the.

[22:49] But I do know that the state allows

[22:52] as many school age children as possible as you need to

[22:56] with the restrictions that you follow their rules.

[22:59] As far as no more than what you're allowed at any one time,

[23:03] which in their case is 65.

[23:07] So so that doesn't apply here.

[23:11] And the decision.

[23:14] She also said the decision did not address

[23:18] something about

[23:18] needing a special exception, which it didn't need a special exception.

[23:22] Maybe it was supposed to be conditional use permit, but again,

[23:24] it doesn't need a conditional use permit either.

[23:28] So during

[23:30] 2025, staff had received complaints from Mrs.

[23:36] Plourde regarding noise from the children, particularly the after school program,

[23:40] because these kids were older, and she was of the opinion

[23:45] that the after school program was not a permitted use,

[23:50] and that they didn't include plans for an after school program

[23:53] in their application.

[23:55] Again, it

[23:58] our zoning ordinance does not have any.

[24:02] There's no mention whatsoever of after school care

[24:05] except for those five children.

[24:07] So that didn't really come into play when they went to apply

[24:11] for their license at the state,

[24:14] just as the first people from 2020 were planning to do the same thing.

[24:20] So. Let me just catch my here.

[24:24] She's.

[24:28] So, so I think there's just confusion

[24:30] on how the state handles it and how the town handles it.

[24:34] And the state pretty much overrides

[24:37] what the town does because the state has certain rules.

[24:40] We and we write on their nose after school children

[24:46] on the zoning verification form, which this school has been in operation

[24:50] now for six years, and we have never done that.

[24:54] And I can't imagine the town going in there now and telling them

[24:58] that you have to change your business plan because your kids are too loud.

[25:04] The kids are only up to 12 years of age.

[25:06] It's not like there's teenagers there.

[25:10] So in

[25:12] on May 21st of 2026, the town did receive a letter.

[25:17] I'm sorry. Let me back up a minute.

[25:18] So to to address the issues with the summer camp because

[25:23] because that was also an issue raised by Mrs.

[25:26] Plourde.

[25:27] The town administrator did send a letter back and explained

[25:32] that he spoke with the department heads, and he looked into some other complaints.

[25:38] There was a complaint about something to do with the tent, and some problems

[25:43] with the fire department had a few issues and after everything

[25:47] and Jack had to go out there a few times, everything was wrapped up in everyone.

[25:52] All the departments were fine and everyone said,

[25:56] and I have emails to this fact that everyone said yes,

[25:59] they're in compliance, that everyone's good.

[26:01] So that was in December of 2025.

[26:06] The following May of 2026, the town received a letter

[26:10] from Attorney Manning representing Miss Plourde

[26:14] concerning alleged zoning code violations. And

[26:19] they said that

[26:20] issues that had been a concern.

[26:23] No. I'm sorry.

[26:24] Then Jack sent a letter saying that all of the issues that had been a concern

[26:28] with the various department

[26:29] heads had been addressed, and there were no other outstanding issues.

[26:34] When we sent the letter back to the attorney,

[26:38] she she got in touch with us and said that

[26:41] she was no longer representing the applicant.

[26:44] So we then sent a letter to Mrs.

[26:47] Plourde.

[26:49] The school is allowed to care.

[26:51] Now, this isn't my me saying this.

[26:54] This is the state.

[26:55] I have emails from the state and this is what they say.

[26:58] The school is allowed to care for any number of school age children

[27:02] if they do not exceed their licensing capacity of 65.

[27:06] These decisions are based on the life safety inspection provided by the fire

[27:10] inspector and any restrictions provided on the zoning approval form.

[27:15] And like I said before, which there are no restrictions,

[27:19] child care licenses may have the school age license type.

[27:24] In addition to the group child care program,

[27:27] they are allowed to advertise and operate a summer camp under the school age

[27:31] license type and are not required to have separate approval for this.

[27:37] So it's

[27:39] pretty much everything that I've covered and and looked at everything.

[27:43] So on behalf of the town and my office, I am respectfully requesting

[27:47] that the Zoning Board of Adjustment

[27:49] find that this appeal has no merit and deny this request.

[27:53] And I'll take any questions if you have any.

[27:56] So let's start with the board first, and then I'll come back to you.

[28:02] Okay.

[28:02] This is the questions that we're going

[28:04] to ask are specifically what Joanne just said.

[28:08] So I want to make sure we're not addressing this.

[28:11] Let's take care of this set of parentheses.

[28:14] And then we'll we'll address bigger issue.

[28:17] But one of the things that confuses me with this is this complaint

[28:23] seems to me to be more

[28:26] a matter of enforcement than zoning.

[28:30] And how can you direct

[28:34] against a summer camp program when what you're really talking about

[28:40] is the licensing for the entire facility, and whether they have

[28:48] the correct approvals to operate that kind of right.

[28:52] I'm unsure how you can separate those two things out

[28:55] summer camp versus their entire operation.

[28:59] Okay. Can I help you with that?

[29:00] So if their summer camp

[29:02] is part of their program, it's considered part of their license.

[29:07] That's what we have.

[29:08] It's not a separate license.

[29:12] Understood.

[29:13] But that seems to me to be the substance of the complaint.

[29:18] It was directed specifically against

[29:22] the facility operating the summer camp program.

[29:26] I mean, one of the things I would be interested in since Mrs.

[29:30] Florida's a longtime neighbor of the property, is what

[29:33] the child census was when the under its former name,

[29:39] it was in full operation as a school in kindergarten.

[29:44] How many kids you had on site at that point?

[29:47] They had they were licensed for 50,

[29:51] so it was 15.

[29:54] Higher than what the definition of group,

[29:58] family, group.

[29:58] But but. Again.

[30:01] Because they were they fell under a kindergarten as well.

[30:04] Preschool. Kindergarten.

[30:05] The group child care and 5.6.4.

[30:08] That's the only one that's in the table. Yes.

[30:11] Yeah.

[30:11] So group childcare as defined by New Hampshire

[30:14] RSA six seven for family and group childcare programs,

[30:18] shall be allowed as an accessory use to a primary residential use.

[30:23] It's for someone

[30:24] who has a home who is taking care of children.

[30:28] There's two different.

[30:29] There's another. One.

[30:30] That is a family group.

[30:32] The other.

[30:33] One is the other one.

[30:34] That's the one reference, okay.

[30:37] But also the the allowed use in the agricultural zone is kindergarten.

[30:42] Elementary or secondary school is a permitted use. Yes.

[30:46] And that was that was kind of what I was going to bring up.

[30:49] I need to look at their license from.

[30:52] I'm sorry.

[30:54] Go ahead. Bruce.

[30:54] Mr. chair, I'd like to comment on I think those owning board has the ability

[31:00] to look at it broader.

[31:04] There's been an appeal of administrative decision,

[31:08] and we've been asked as a board to act upon

[31:11] some elements that she's alleging that's not correct.

[31:15] And she's appealing.

[31:17] However.

[31:18] RSA 674 colon 33

[31:22] two allows a zoning board to make it

[31:25] as ought to be made, any decisions, any appeals.

[31:30] So I think that opens up the board to say, okay,

[31:33] let's look at it as a whole package and see if there's any errors in this.

[31:39] I'm going to say application.

[31:40] But really in this property

[31:44] from a zoning standpoint.

[31:46] So I go back to more of a timeline

[31:50] issue or question I was owning ordinance in the table

[31:55] says that it's a group child care or family group child care.

[32:00] I believe it's permitted use.

[32:02] Just group. Child care group.

[32:04] So yeah. So okay.

[32:06] So our definition for group

[32:09] is that no more than five

[32:11] believe our town definition group child daycare center

[32:17] provided for preschool children up to five school age children.

[32:21] Okay, so it does nothing with numbers.

[32:25] It has an age criteria that to me was referenced.

[32:30] I think it was morning.

[32:31] Morning, day school, something way back going forward.

[32:36] Right.

[32:38] To me the town allowed

[32:40] childcare up to five school age children.

[32:46] However, somewhere we're being told

[32:50] that in 2020 they went to the planning board.

[32:54] So they had the site plan approval for the up to five school age

[32:57] children in 86.

[33:00] In 2020, they asked the planning board for group

[33:05] childcare and I believe it was commented also after school care.

[33:10] But that was a different person.

[33:12] That was not in. The morning.

[33:13] I'm going with you, but an application came in.

[33:17] They went to the planning board to say, look,

[33:19] obviously they were expanding from the greater than five

[33:22] school aged children because they wanted to do an after school care

[33:26] which has more school age children.

[33:29] So I'm trying to find that path, and I believe that's factual.

[33:34] I'm not sure on that application in 2020.

[33:38] However, that application of A14 was correct.

[33:42] The first.

[33:42] The. Application went forward, but they never went forward with the business.

[33:48] So typically site plans expire in two years.

[33:53] I think if you don't exercise that approval.

[33:56] Correct.

[33:58] However, a new owner.

[33:59] Came in, a new owner came.

[34:01] Yes, exercised and approved site plan within two years.

[34:06] So those approvals and the waivers

[34:08] that came with that from 20 in 2021

[34:12] goes forward with all those approvals and the waivers.

[34:17] So I believe in 2021,

[34:20] they came into doing their group

[34:23] childcare with school age children,

[34:29] a number not received

[34:30] 65, and there's no breakup or a ratio of 6565 came

[34:34] from the fire department on the.

[34:38] Documentation that I saw.

[34:41] And subsequently we've had some.

[34:45] In 2021 when they came in.

[34:47] The newest owners, current owners go forward.

[34:52] I believe, rightly determined

[34:55] that there wasn't any change from the approval in 2020.

[34:58] They were going to do

[35:01] what is the group?

[35:02] Infant, preschool and school age?

[35:07] Even though we don't have

[35:09] a defined use of that in our zoning ordinance.

[35:14] Right.

[35:15] We don't break it down as specific as the state does.

[35:19] So they kind of approved it

[35:23] even though it doesn't show up in the table

[35:25] of uses at the planning board.

[35:28] Probably the real thing to have done with

[35:31] probably get a variance to do the after school or if there's another use group,

[35:37] put the after school in with it, but we don't have that in that table.

[35:41] Music seems so confused by a really simple issue.

[35:48] What are they approved yet?

[35:50] Are are they approved as a group child daycare center

[35:55] with the conditional use permit, or

[35:59] are they approved as a kindergarten?

[36:04] I think it's going to be yes and yes.

[36:05] They can carry all of those.

[36:07] They can carry all of those.

[36:10] So on the town.

[36:11] So if they're approved as a kindergarten,

[36:16] well, first of all, they have the conditional use permit.

[36:18] No, they don't need. One for.

[36:21] But we're saying that they're approved for two things.

[36:23] The kindergarten and the group child daycare center.

[36:29] They approve of both.

[36:30] That's what the 2020 applicant was approved.

[36:33] For 2020 was.

[36:34] So the current owner, are they approved for both

[36:39] the group child care center, daycare.

[36:42] Center, have a license for that. Correct.

[36:44] And they're also approved for the kindergarten program.

[36:48] We approve them for that.

[36:51] We staff approved them

[36:53] to to have a kindergarten preschool. Okay.

[36:56] And the state approved them.

[36:58] And for the.

[37:00] Group preschool, the the after school.

[37:04] And so the applicant is asking for

[37:10] the planning board to issue

[37:12] a conditional use permit

[37:16] because, well, whatever.

[37:18] But there is one for one of the approvals.

[37:21] And they're also approved as a kindergarten program.

[37:24] And the state then has a licensing for that

[37:27] that allows them to do camps and after school.

[37:31] And so.

[37:34] I can't.

[37:35] I. Have so some.

[37:36] Different license in your packet as well.

[37:39] Yeah.

[37:40] The local approvals, local approvals

[37:43] happened to allow the after school kindergarten was always grandfathered,

[37:48] whatever that was the use that was on an 86 man.

[37:51] The change in 20 to 21.

[37:53] Both of those asked to do after school,

[37:58] the over five years old agreed.

[38:01] Right. Yeah.

[38:01] So then going forward, the staff at those times said, well,

[38:05] they don't need a conditional use permit or there was a waiver to that.

[38:08] I'm not sure the planning board had an approval.

[38:10] Well, they gave an approval above and beyond kindergarten.

[38:13] They also allowed the after school going forward.

[38:19] And again,

[38:20] the local approval criteria bucket, so to speak.

[38:24] Don't go inside with state laws. Right.

[38:26] We know that.

[38:28] That's why it's hard for the staff to say okay, this one, this one.

[38:32] Is there any more questions specifically on what Joanne brought up

[38:35] and I know you're at.

[38:36] So I might be able to help because I asked.

[38:39] So my cry studio we are licensed.

[38:44] So we are a licensed child care center.

[38:46] We have a school age program that allows us to have up

[38:50] to X number of students that is defined by.

[38:57] So the the town or cities

[39:01] fire department will determine capacity.

[39:04] The DHHS will take that

[39:10] and generally issue them a license for the max capacity,

[39:14] assuming they have the proper teachers and that kind of thing.

[39:17] And then from there they can have whatever mixture

[39:21] because their license is is not separated by that.

[39:25] So they can have a they could have one preschooler

[39:28] and 64 after school kids.

[39:32] They're licensed as long as they're not over 12.

[39:37] That help okay.

[39:39] All right.

[39:40] Now any board left with the town.

[39:44] All right. So I'll let you go ahead and.

[39:47] Well, I was trying to keep it simple, but I got very confused, so I'm sure you are.

[39:52] I have the minutes from the 2020 meeting

[39:54] and they had no intentions of changing anything exterior of them.

[39:58] So I think I was reading they they said,

[40:03] I highlighted.

[40:06] They only use main building at this time.

[40:08] They would use the first floor, lower floor and second floor.

[40:10] It's for children who are ages six weeks to pre-K.

[40:14] That's what the 2020 conditional use permit was for.

[40:17] They didn't ask for after school.

[40:18] They were asking for a full day daycare.

[40:20] They wanted a full day daycare, you know, up to kindergarten.

[40:26] The conditional use permit stays with the property.

[40:30] So it's not like Roberta's had to go for more.

[40:35] I wrote the ordinance

[40:37] 1.2.2 relationship to other laws, ordinances, regulations.

[40:41] Whenever the provisions of the ordinance conflict

[40:43] with any other ordinance, statute, or rule, the more restrictive or higher

[40:46] standard shall apply, blah blah blah.

[40:51] The state lists preschool and kindergarten, whatever.

[40:54] They list kindergarten with preschool.

[40:56] They list kindergarten with schools when kindergartens are in schools,

[41:00] and that kindergartens are considered preschool when they're with preschools.

[41:04] In our ordinance, we list kindergarten twice.

[41:07] So under group childcare,

[41:11] the agency in which the child daycare

[41:13] is provided for preschool children up to five school age children.

[41:17] This is our ordinance that we're supposed to go by, not by the state.

[41:21] Our ordinance.

[41:22] The state can override the local ordinance.

[41:25] Okay. This is state law.

[41:26] So they are licensed for school age kids.

[41:30] This is also state law.

[41:32] What a group child daycare is,

[41:35] is up to five school age children.

[41:38] Whether the service is known as nursery,

[41:41] nursery school, kindergarten, cooperative, child development center,

[41:45] daycare center, center for the developmentally disabled,

[41:48] progressive school, Montessori school, or by any other name.

[41:51] RSA 172 for.

[41:58] It's also state law.

[41:59] So that is state.

[42:01] So they were licensed by the state to do school age children.

[42:06] But it's group child daycare center up to five.

[42:10] That's also licensed for school age program which is up to 12.

[42:15] Okay.

[42:15] So in our ordinance

[42:19] that's a group child daycare center.

[42:22] That's up.

[42:23] So in our ordinance,

[42:26] up to five school age children for group child daycare, they want to have

[42:30] a summer camp with school age kids not talking kindergarten.

[42:37] You said even if kindergarten is allowed in agricultural talking

[42:40] older kids, then they need a conditional use permit.

[42:43] It's in the ordinance, so I'm just asking for that.

[42:47] Muddying all this up.

[42:49] There's a lot of extra that we went through that I wasn't arguing,

[42:53] I'm just asking for this to be seen by the planning board

[42:58] and to go over it because the site plan didn't.

[43:02] Go. Over everything.

[43:04] They've had an addition,

[43:07] they've put an outdoor

[43:10] classroom, and that's not part of the site plan.

[43:13] I guess they had a fire ring that the fire department made them remove.

[43:17] So was that ever permitted when they put it in?

[43:20] The letter from Derek Horne listed a lot of things that changed,

[43:23] and he said he never saw a permit for the outdoor school classroom.

[43:30] And, you know, there were a lot of changes that should have been on site plan

[43:34] because conditional use.

[43:38] So yes.

[43:41] Ma'am. Has two follow ups to that.

[43:44] I still wasn't done. But.

[43:45] You. Can. Interrupt me. It's okay.

[43:46] No no, no. Go ahead. You can follow. Up on that.

[43:49] I'm not sure.

[43:50] Okay. The tree line.

[43:51] I don't know if that's in the site plan.

[43:53] It's not in the site plan.

[43:54] Those those can be cut.

[43:55] And I can tell you those trees are dying.

[43:58] There's like, they're dying.

[43:59] Those trees just kind of grow up. There's never anything up there.

[44:02] I got a picture from, like 1970.

[44:04] You can see my house right to the barn.

[44:07] You know, they're just dying because the water, the water's changed

[44:10] over there, so, you know, it's not as thick.

[44:13] It used to be really thick.

[44:14] I used to

[44:14] walk my kids to school through there, and it was like going through the woods.

[44:17] Now it's like you can kind of see through in the winter. You can see right through.

[44:22] I think

[44:22] those are kind of the notes I was writing with.

[44:26] So yeah.

[44:30] So day camp is conditional use permit.

[44:37] Okay.

[44:38] Do any wanted to respond? Yes.

[44:42] Just two things

[44:44] in the letter that we received from

[44:48] the Jason Witty was his name back in 2020.

[44:54] He specifically says in here specifically, the child care

[44:58] Center offers not only educational preschool programs,

[45:01] but also offers childcare for hours outside of the normal school hours.

[45:06] The child care center will have a typical opening

[45:09] of hours 630 and 6 p.m., which I had mentioned before,

[45:14] so they were planning to do it before and after

[45:18] child care, daycare, whatever.

[45:21] They didn't say the age is in when he.

[45:23] Spoke.

[45:24] The minutes of the.

[45:25] Planning interrupting me, please.

[45:27] I'm not finished. I'm sorry.

[45:31] And the

[45:31] second thing I just wanted to mention was the issues that she's bringing up now

[45:36] about the children being the older children,

[45:42] I don't believe we're in her written appeal.

[45:46] I could be wrong, but I don't believe those items about the

[45:50] the after school kids being there that they weren't allowed.

[45:55] However, that should have been brought up 30 days after the town

[46:01] decided that this could go in, not six years later.

[46:04] You can't come back to a business six years later and say,

[46:08] you can't do that, even though the town told you that it was okay.

[46:12] So she.

[46:15] Initially she was she was.

[46:17] Jack had written his letter about the noise and and the not the noise.

[46:23] It wasn't even about the noise at that time.

[46:24] The noise was a verbal.

[46:26] Jack had written his letter and said, all of the things that you

[46:29] that you didn't care for were taken care of.

[46:33] And Jack's letter is also in your packet.

[46:38] I'll find it in a second.

[46:52] Do we have a copy of that letter?

[46:55] I don't remember seeing it stated.

[46:57] May 21st, 2026.

[47:02] So. One.

[47:05] Signed by Derek.

[47:07] Know this is a different one.

[47:08] This is the one she's appealing.

[47:10] Says this office reviewed your letter of April 29th regarding

[47:15] zoning code violation, where you state that you represent Beth Ford.

[47:19] Now, again, this was sent to the attorney and then the attorney said,

[47:22] please send it directly to her.

[47:26] The business in question has four child care

[47:28] license, and we could name them all

[47:32] the cumulative number of children on site

[47:35] at any one time cannot exceed 65.

[47:38] Section five six.

[47:40] One of the town Zoning ordinance states compliance with regulations.

[47:44] All child care facilities must comply with

[47:47] all applicable state and federal regulations.

[47:50] Therefore, morning and afternoon school child care

[47:55] is permitted as part of their state licensing.

[47:58] Summer camp is a typical activity conducted during the summer months

[48:01] at most child care centers, and is permitted under

[48:04] the school aged care license.

[48:06] Derek Horned, Hound administrator, did reach out to the property owner

[48:10] in November of 20 2525, informing him of potential violations.

[48:15] My research shows that the 2024 building permit

[48:20] 24 115 conference room has been closed out.

[48:24] The work was inspected and approved on November 7th, 2025.

[48:28] The outdoor shelter building with campfire ring and sitting area was inspected

[48:32] by the fire inspector, Captain Tim LaVoy.

[48:35] Captain Lavoie noted they have resolved the issues noted during the inspection.

[48:40] The campfire ring has been removed.

[48:42] They have also obtained a tent permit for 2026.

[48:45] All issues have been addressed and are now resolved.

[48:48] This is the letter that this is appealing and there's nothing in here

[48:54] about school age children or camps or anything like that.

[48:57] So those issues should have been appealed in 30 days

[49:03] after the place received approval from the town.

[49:08] This is the only thing she can appeal is Jack's determination.

[49:12] It's his appeal of the zoning code officers determination.

[49:16] At this point.

[49:19] Can I speak again?

[49:20] Still my turn.

[49:22] Board to have any questions for a follow up first.

[49:26] Just as I think

[49:27] I said before having trouble,

[49:30] we seem to not be able to focus on one issue.

[49:35] We go back and forth in the ages of the children on the site

[49:42] versus the conditions on site that are possible.

[49:46] Zoning violates.

[49:48] And, you know, it's just very difficult

[49:52] to figure out what is supposed to be the central

[49:56] here.

[49:56] And I you know, I do tend to agree with Joanne's point.

[50:03] If the original conditions that are talked about here

[50:07] were going to be appeal, they needed to be appealed

[50:11] within a reasonable time frame after the original approval,

[50:16] not six years later.

[50:21] I agree, I gotta say.

[50:22] I do agree. On that.

[50:25] Yes, she's appealing this letter July 8th, 2026

[50:30] and I think she's questioning

[50:33] or challenging number for school aged care,

[50:37] which I also again was saying, well,

[50:41] the town says school aged care did get approval

[50:47] in addition to kindergarten.

[50:48] Kindergarten spend for years.

[50:50] We know that that's a fact.

[50:52] It's the school aged care.

[50:55] That to me has been new and I'm trying to find that timeline.

[50:59] I believe it happened that school aged care

[51:04] was in the 2020 application, and as well as the 20

[51:08] or the approval of 2020, and then the 2021 resubmit

[51:14] because there was a new owner also included in addition

[51:18] to kindergarten, school aged care, I believe that's the record.

[51:23] So she's saying no school age care is not.

[51:28] And again, back in the 86 approvals, it wasn't

[51:32] I think that the planning board,

[51:36] through the site plan process approved school aged children.

[51:41] That's my reason why we're here.

[51:44] She's appealing that and we're saying, well, let's look at the history.

[51:47] So that's what we're digging. We're cranking out the sausage.

[51:50] So I'll let you answer.

[51:53] Again I have.

[51:55] Hold on as long as it's new information.

[51:57] Okay.

[51:58] Well, I have the minutes of the 2020 meeting

[52:02] and they wanted to have a full day, but they did not want school age kids

[52:06] they've listed. I already told you, the age of the kids.

[52:09] And the letter from Jack

[52:12] and Joanne wrote with him, because Derek told me

[52:16] that it is just on the school age kids.

[52:22] It's not a. 2020.

[52:24] It's not when they first started in business.

[52:26] Like I just, you know, they were a business

[52:29] that were doing preschool and kindergarten.

[52:31] They were picking kids up from kindergarten,

[52:32] bringing kids back from kindergarten.

[52:34] And I just eventually got really loud.

[52:36] And I didn't say anything right away because I knew

[52:38] Sarah was going through a lot of issues medically, and I just felt

[52:42] it wasn't the right time to bring it up to the family.

[52:45] And I finally spoke to Mr.

[52:48] Robert and Mr.

[52:51] Michael outside when August 2024.

[52:53] And I told him that, you know, at first it wasn't bad.

[52:56] It got really loud.

[52:57] I couldn't even read a book outside anymore.

[52:59] Mr. Michael said to me, I apologize.

[53:02] You should be able to enjoy your yard. Mr.

[53:04] Robert said, well, kids playing outside scream and make a lot of noise.

[53:08] January 2025 found out Sarah was back to work some.

[53:12] So I called her and I told her my issues

[53:15] and about the age requirements that I understood.

[53:19] They were approved. For.

[53:20] Group child daycare and the planning board approved them for group child care.

[53:26] They didn't approve more.

[53:29] She said, well, I need my numbers.

[53:31] I'll talk to my staff.

[53:32] Then I called Joanne and I don't know if you remember.

[53:35] You told me that your daughter had moved back home.

[53:38] This has really nothing to do with it.

[53:39] But the dog moved back home.

[53:41] She works for Mont Mote and she she couldn't handle three kids screaming.

[53:45] Stop talking over me, okay?

[53:47] All right. I'm sorry.

[53:49] So information into this, it has. No.

[53:51] She said that I could couldn't handle the screaming kids.

[53:56] She wrote me a letter back that, you know,

[53:58] kindergarten was was

[54:01] approved for,

[54:04] permitted for the agricultural zone.

[54:07] But I was talking about the school age kids talking up to five school age kids.

[54:14] Then I spoke with Derek, who was the acting code enforcement

[54:18] agent at the time, and he officer and it was hard to get a hold of him.

[54:23] I talked to him in January and he wrote a letter to the road in school

[54:28] in November 2025 with all the changes they made, and I didn't hear back from him.

[54:33] I finally got a hold of him in March and he said everything was in compliance.

[54:37] And I said, well, can you send me a letter for clients?

[54:39] And he didn't.

[54:40] So I spoke with a lawyer and I just wanted to know, am I right about all this?

[54:44] And like the ordinance and everything?

[54:46] And and she looked into it and she said the, the state

[54:52] didn't override, you know, our ordinance.

[54:56] But whether they did or not, I still think that they need

[55:00] to have a conditional use permit for the camp if they're going to have

[55:04] a bunch of school aged kids. And that's really all I have to say.

[55:07] And all the other extra stuff, it doesn't really matter.

[55:11] But I just don't think that that

[55:15] I think the planning board really should look at it. And

[55:19] that's all right.

[55:20] Thank you.

[55:22] Is there anyone else from the public that wishes to speak for this from

[55:28] the public?

[55:28] If there's anybody who'd like to speak on this issue.

[55:33] Ma'am.

[55:33] Come on up.

[55:36] Okay.

[55:37] So I'm just going to ask you to state your name and address, please.

[55:40] Kathleen Bozeman 202 Wallace.

[55:45] We live at 202.

[55:48] Owen. 212 and 216.

[55:51] So our property runs across the street from the school.

[55:57] My grandkids have gone to the school.

[55:59] I've got a great niece there.

[56:03] I'm not arguing that

[56:06] we don't hear it, but when there's a football game

[56:09] or a little league game, come on up to my house.

[56:12] I hear you can hear every word,

[56:17] but you know what I mean.

[56:18] It's a town. It's.

[56:20] What are we going to do?

[56:21] Move the ball field. Be quieter.

[56:24] I don't, it's an inconvenience.

[56:27] I hear you,

[56:30] all these laws and stuff.

[56:31] I don't have a clue.

[56:32] But the school has been a good neighbor.

[56:38] They.

[56:40] When it was the previous owner, we would let them park in our driveway

[56:44] for graduations to try to keep them off the road.

[56:48] Something's going to go there and could be maybe a swine farm or something.

[56:54] I don't know, could always get worse.

[56:57] I hear you, but I think it's a nice business to have in town.

[57:03] It's servicing a lot of the community, and a mile down

[57:08] the road is another huge school.

[57:12] That's it.

[57:13] Thank you very much.

[57:14] You're very welcome.

[57:16] The next person who wanted to speak, please.

[57:26] Hi, everyone.

[57:27] My name is Mary Jenkins and I live at 245 Wallace Road.

[57:31] The property abuts the Gage Farm Schoolhouse property down.

[57:36] Oh, the microphone, please.

[57:39] All right.

[57:39] I'll just say that again for anyone who didn't hear out there.

[57:43] Mary Fike Jenkins, 245 Wallace Road property

[57:46] abuts the Gage Farm Schoolhouse property along Dan Middlebrook

[57:50] and along the the woods between our properties.

[57:55] I am not the property owner.

[57:57] My mom is, and she has some mobility issues right now and can't be here,

[58:01] but asked me to just say a couple of things on her behalf.

[58:06] I'll start though, by saying that I grew up there.

[58:09] I had the pleasure of living next door to the gages

[58:13] and then the Gilmore's and then the Shapiro's, and

[58:16] am generally glad that there is a school there

[58:19] that makes good use of the property.

[58:23] My mom's comments.

[58:25] Her name is Gail Fike again, 245 Wallace Road.

[58:30] Just have to do with,

[58:33] you know,

[58:34] the importance of following protocol

[58:37] and requirements around

[58:41] around the proceedings and appeal process and so on.

[58:45] So just wanted to just say,

[58:48] you know, just please follow whatever the rules are,

[58:52] whatever the regulations are.

[58:55] Her main concern is about habitat and environment.

[58:59] She'll say, yes, it's our property, you know, Gage farm,

[59:03] schoolhouse and the fake residence at 245 Wallace Road.

[59:07] That's property, but it's not our land.

[59:09] And she has grave concerns about wildlife habitat

[59:14] in the area. And,

[59:17] you know, I'm not saying for a minute that that child care

[59:21] and the school age programing and so on is incompatible

[59:25] with the approvals or with the agricultural use.

[59:29] Clearly the statutes and the regs allow for that.

[59:34] We just do see some inherent differences

[59:37] in the use of the property

[59:40] and the activity down along the brook, which is also habitat for deer

[59:45] and other wildlife in the area, which is maybe neither here nor there.

[59:51] It's just that the more the property is used in an expansive way

[59:55] during the summer months, that that is quite a bit different.

[1:00:00] But again, you know, we're glad that there's a school there.

[1:00:03] Again, thanks. Thank you.

[1:00:07] Is there anyone else?

[1:00:08] Sorry. Sue.

[1:00:16] Good evening.

[1:00:17] I'm Tim Searles.

[1:00:19] I live at 311 Terrell Hill Road here in Goffstown.

[1:00:22] I'm a member of the planning board,

[1:00:23] but I'm not here on behalf of the Planning Board.

[1:00:28] A couple of things.

[1:00:30] Few things.

[1:00:30] First, correct me if I'm wrong, but state law overrides local law.

[1:00:35] Local jurisdiction. Right.

[1:00:37] So if they have a state license for 65 kids.

[1:00:43] And in the minutes that Mrs.

[1:00:47] Gage was referring to,

[1:00:50] they applied for a kindergarten daycare center.

[1:00:54] So if their license for 65 kids have those licenses,

[1:00:57] I think it should be able to stand that they should be able to.

[1:01:00] And in that same in those same minutes,

[1:01:04] they stated the hours of operation 632, 6

[1:01:07] or 7, whatever it was, the estate of the the hours of operation.

[1:01:13] So between that.

[1:01:17] Between that, that

[1:01:19] and as far as the wildlife, it's no more destructive than a farm

[1:01:23] being there before where they had horses probably, or whatever, or cattle

[1:01:29] trotting through the brook, probably, and probably

[1:01:32] doing the same amount of regional impact as a two ton or as a one

[1:01:36] ton animal would going up only it's just divided

[1:01:40] into 65 kids.

[1:01:44] Other than that,

[1:01:47] this whole thing, this whole appeal process is kind of frustrating.

[1:01:51] But like,

[1:01:53] I don't see in my limited capacity,

[1:01:58] in my limited understanding of what's going on, I don't see why we're here.

[1:02:03] But she has every right to appeal.

[1:02:05] I think the appeal should be denied.

[1:02:07] Thank you.

[1:02:11] Anyone else from the public?

[1:02:14] With that, I will close the public hearing and

[1:02:18] the board.

[1:02:19] I think someone wanted to.

[1:02:21] Oh, sorry.

[1:02:21] Was there someone else?

[1:02:22] Oh. I'm sorry. I will reopen the public hearing.

[1:02:25] Sorry.

[1:02:25] We'll scratch that out.

[1:02:28] Hi, everyone.

[1:02:30] Good evening.

[1:02:32] All right.

[1:02:32] When you.

[1:02:32] When you work in a classroom, I'm looking for high.

[1:02:37] Up. Hi, I'm Sarah Stone.

[1:02:40] I'm a part owner and director of Cage Farm Schoolhouse.

[1:02:45] I'm also the daughter of the owners, David.

[1:02:47] Nancy. Roberta.

[1:02:49] I'm Michael O'Keefe,

[1:02:50] and I'm the assistant director and outdoor learning specialist.

[1:02:54] I the reason why we're even here

[1:02:57] about Cage Farm is that I was a student of New Orleans School back in the mid 80s.

[1:03:02] I have a master's in early childhood.

[1:03:04] I have two young boys that I just went through childcare,

[1:03:08] trying to find the perfect spot for my kid, my kids.

[1:03:11] Excuse me?

[1:03:13] My parents gave me the opportunity to buy the property.

[1:03:15] As former alumni, parents of New Morning School.

[1:03:20] We just loved the property.

[1:03:21] Loved the experience that provided.

[1:03:24] And we're from Bedford and it's just nothing like that property.

[1:03:28] I wouldn't be here starting a business if it wasn't for that property.

[1:03:33] I have been a huge part of becoming part of the community

[1:03:39] with different events around town.

[1:03:42] There is a severe need

[1:03:46] for childcare, good childcare.

[1:03:49] As a former first grade

[1:03:50] teacher and kindergarten teacher in the public school system.

[1:03:53] Kids are coming to me.

[1:03:55] Families were coming to me

[1:03:56] feeling like they were prepared and ready for first grade.

[1:04:00] If you have any kids that have been first grade or higher,

[1:04:04] the expectations of first grade

[1:04:06] is so different than when I grew up.

[1:04:10] These parents would invest in really good programs,

[1:04:12] and they would come to my first grade public school

[1:04:15] in Manchester, New Hampshire.

[1:04:17] Not a you no public school.

[1:04:19] That's average in our state.

[1:04:22] And they would be blown away by the expectations.

[1:04:25] I wanted to provide a space

[1:04:28] that had full curriculum, full

[1:04:32] classrooms of space that parents felt like their money was going to good use.

[1:04:37] It wasn't just childcare. It was a school.

[1:04:40] It was a place where parents felt like they were part of the community.

[1:04:44] They felt connected.

[1:04:46] Their kids were learning.

[1:04:47] But I also having two boys knew that the only place

[1:04:50] I would want to start a school and leave my pension is 215 Walls Road.

[1:04:56] It provides a space that has an outdoor space for kids.

[1:05:00] As a working mom, myself and my husband being a police officer

[1:05:03] at Manchester, we have an Army reserves.

[1:05:06] We have very limited time to do all the things

[1:05:08] we want to do with our kids, like go on a walk,

[1:05:12] be in nature, go sledding in the winter, we get home from work, it's time for bed.

[1:05:17] It's time for nighttime.

[1:05:19] Hopefully we get dinner and we're off to bed.

[1:05:22] So that was my vision when I started Gage Barton.

[1:05:25] I brought Mr. Michael.

[1:05:27] Michael O'Keefe along as my assistant director.

[1:05:31] He is our outdoor specialist.

[1:05:34] He spends time with kids, so I want to make sure

[1:05:37] he speaks on behalf of farm.

[1:05:41] I will pass this around if that's okay.

[1:05:44] It does have our state license that we're okay for 65.

[1:05:48] We have been approved for actually more kids than 65

[1:05:52] since the state changed their ratio.

[1:05:56] Sorry, not the ratio.

[1:05:57] Excuse me.

[1:05:58] There's square footage from 40 square foot

[1:06:01] space for per child to 35.

[1:06:04] So we have been approved for more.

[1:06:06] I have not come to you asking for more kids.

[1:06:09] I could, but I haven't.

[1:06:12] I am happy with 65.

[1:06:15] I think it's a good number.

[1:06:16] It's like where we're at right now.

[1:06:19] I'm not saying

[1:06:19] I'm not going to do it in the future, but I just want you to know that it's

[1:06:22] actually under what the state is allowing us to have.

[1:06:26] Just real quick. Yeah, please.

[1:06:28] The license that you were talking about it currently does state 65

[1:06:32] is a correct yes. Yeah.

[1:06:34] The one could change. Correct.

[1:06:35] And I do have an email from the state saying that they recommend us

[1:06:40] actually upping our numbers, but I have not done so.

[1:06:43] Our state license, the reason why you had two times

[1:06:47] is because we get a new license every three years.

[1:06:50] And we started in 2021 to the 2022 school year.

[1:06:53] So we are now it's expiring in 2027.

[1:06:57] Just so you all know that.

[1:06:58] And our summer camp is under our state license.

[1:07:01] So it's really just the same program moving forward.

[1:07:04] So we still have four year olds in a class.

[1:07:08] We still have kindergartners in a class.

[1:07:11] And then we have older students who also need care during the summertime.

[1:07:15] And it's it's not a really a different programs, the same program, same license.

[1:07:23] The state actually

[1:07:23] recommended us to do a camp license to actually hold two licenses.

[1:07:28] We have chosen not to do that.

[1:07:29] So our program, just like Michael said, is the same exact license.

[1:07:34] We just call it summer camp.

[1:07:37] It is from age two and a half

[1:07:39] to 12 years old, but we are allowed infants if we wanted to.

[1:07:44] But we hold our our license from

[1:07:47] two and a half years old to 12.

[1:07:50] With that said, it is like you said, it's the same license, same childcare.

[1:07:56] Parents need full time care. They need summer.

[1:07:58] It's they need full time care.

[1:08:00] And there's a huge need.

[1:08:02] We are summer camp, I'm proud to say.

[1:08:05] But I was also very surprised.

[1:08:07] Just says something about what we have in our town,

[1:08:12] in our

[1:08:12] local surrounding communities, is that our our summer camp

[1:08:18] filled up within an hour of putting it out there

[1:08:23] totally full.

[1:08:25] Parents are begging to get their kids in it.

[1:08:29] Is that.

[1:08:30] Yeah, it's a need. It's a huge need.

[1:08:33] Parents are asking us to be open for holiday breaks.

[1:08:38] They need care. People need work.

[1:08:40] But we also are.

[1:08:42] I feel we've been extremely respectful of our neighbors

[1:08:47] in the book at the beginning.

[1:08:50] It shows kind of the schedule of the summer camp and how it's how we schedule.

[1:08:55] Yeah, we spread out.

[1:08:57] We're not all in the same spot for a large period of time.

[1:09:02] Our aftercare goes from 230 at the earliest, is when we get back with

[1:09:07] our first van with kids

[1:09:10] from New Boston, and then it goes until 530,

[1:09:13] and then that's our school age aftercare during the school year.

[1:09:18] Yeah, it just shows you that we break it up within groups of age groups.

[1:09:24] So there are 30 kids plus

[1:09:27] depending on the day that are there's definitely 15 in each group.

[1:09:31] So we have four groups.

[1:09:31] So it was 15.

[1:09:32] In our kids that are entering pre-K and kindergarten, there's 15

[1:09:38] maybe up to 18 that are entering into first grade.

[1:09:43] And then but they were kindergartners are entering first grade,

[1:09:47] and then we have two older groups that are about 15 each that are

[1:09:52] entering second grade up to fifth grade.

[1:09:55] I was sorry, accuse me sixth grade.

[1:09:58] That 12 year. Old.

[1:09:59] Mark, that 12 year old Mark. Exactly.

[1:10:02] So we we spent people ask him,

[1:10:04] how do you have a camp for four year olds up to 12 year olds?

[1:10:08] And it's like, well, we've split them up by their their age.

[1:10:11] What's appropriate.

[1:10:12] So our our younger group, which is more than half of our camp,

[1:10:17] is as you'll see in our schedule, they're indoors quite a bit.

[1:10:21] And it's not that

[1:10:22] we don't want them to be outdoors, it's because they need to have snack in an area

[1:10:26] that is clean, and they are able to be in a spot where they can actually sit.

[1:10:30] Because the picnic tables

[1:10:31] aren't great for our little guys, they need to have rest time.

[1:10:35] It is mandated by our state license that they have rest time for an hour

[1:10:40] if they're entering kindergarten or younger, and so we have them inside

[1:10:44] having rest.

[1:10:45] We call it mean time because they don't like nap time.

[1:10:47] But we do have that time with our kiddos that are. Yes.

[1:10:52] And then we also have, like Michael said, we do stations.

[1:10:56] So there's a group that's down by the brook.

[1:10:59] So again 15 kids, it's not 65 running through the brook

[1:11:02] like crazy and ruining our property and our environment.

[1:11:06] We have 15 kids that are up by the tent that are doing crafts, making necklaces,

[1:11:11] making bracelets. They're not screaming.

[1:11:13] I mean, kids are going to be loud.

[1:11:15] I'm not saying they aren't, but we don't have kids

[1:11:18] that are just scratching like, I don't like screaming.

[1:11:21] I'll tell you, I love kids, I love play, I love when they're laughing.

[1:11:25] I love when they're, you know, running after somebody and making lots of noise.

[1:11:30] Yes, but we don't have kids that just scream.

[1:11:32] We don't have infants, we don't have toddlers.

[1:11:35] We don't even have three year olds in our summer camp because it's

[1:11:38] a different environment than our regular school days.

[1:11:42] So I just, you know, at the most there's when she's

[1:11:46] talking about the outdoor classroom, we were approved for that.

[1:11:49] We do have kitchens, but it's part of our property.

[1:11:52] We have breeze garden beds, but they're all spread out doing different things.

[1:11:56] And we do that for a reason for safety,

[1:11:59] for the enjoyment of kids not being cluttered in one spot.

[1:12:02] They're able to enjoy all that we have to offer at Gage,

[1:12:06] but part of that's indoors and we don't go outside.

[1:12:10] Our morning care is from 7 to 8:00.

[1:12:12] We do not go outside until 8:00 due to staffing.

[1:12:16] I only have a certain amount that I do for morning care

[1:12:19] because I can't get the staffing for that early, and we do

[1:12:23] start at 7 a.m., not 6 a.m., which was approved, but we started seven.

[1:12:29] Hour aftercare.

[1:12:30] We give a discount until 430, so most of the kids are gone by 430.

[1:12:34] We have truly like eight kids until 530.

[1:12:39] We are out.

[1:12:40] We are inside the entire campus, inside when it's too hot,

[1:12:43] which we've had a lot of hot days.

[1:12:45] We do have AC in our building and if it rains they're fully indoors,

[1:12:50] so it's not a total outdoor program where we're outside all day

[1:12:53] long with 65 kids just running around and screaming.

[1:12:57] It's very organized.

[1:12:58] It is structured.

[1:12:59] Any parent that is part of our gauge for

[1:13:01] our family will tell you it's not just childcare, it is a school.

[1:13:05] It's a program.

[1:13:07] We are trying to bring that love of nature into these young kids

[1:13:11] that deserve it so much, but also giving them more of that curriculum

[1:13:15] and just a true balance is what we do at Gage Firm.

[1:13:19] Do you want to speak for the environment, please, because you're.

[1:13:22] Outdoor specialist sure.

[1:13:24] To put you on. The spot.

[1:13:25] So we we do try to mitigate

[1:13:29] erosion on in some of our areas.

[1:13:32] We try to build water stops in when our stream is rushing,

[1:13:36] so we can keep our frogs and our fish

[1:13:39] and our other aquatic critters alive.

[1:13:43] We we

[1:13:44] find salamanders and we don't pick them up.

[1:13:48] We just watch them.

[1:13:50] We try not to expose the critters that we see to all of our human stuff.

[1:13:54] We try to leave no trace and and watch.

[1:13:59] So it's really not just like a place where we're just running wild in the woods,

[1:14:03] like we really teach the kids all those things and how important

[1:14:07] it is to take care of, you know, the animals and plants and everything.

[1:14:11] So and I also wanted to just speak on the traffic.

[1:14:15] I know we're not here for the traffic, but I was told by Adam, who's

[1:14:20] the owner of Green Thumb, that it was okay to share this,

[1:14:23] but he said that, you know, he's got a business right across the street.

[1:14:28] He's like, I have loud equipment.

[1:14:29] I'm a landscaper.

[1:14:31] He's like, you guys, I've never had any issues

[1:14:34] with getting my equipment in and out of Wallace Road.

[1:14:38] You have never had people, even two cars

[1:14:41] waiting to pull in to your drop off.

[1:14:44] We have a window of time that we offer for free for parents

[1:14:47] to drop off from 8:00 to 830, so they're not all there all at once.

[1:14:52] We stagger it out for the reason of the town, for the reason of our neighbors,

[1:14:57] for the reason of everyone just to make sure.

[1:14:59] And I'm not really sure I want to speak upon

[1:15:02] what she said, saying that I need to check my numbers.

[1:15:05] I never said that, but what I said was, I'm so sorry you feel that way.

[1:15:09] We have like, I truly still care

[1:15:13] so much for that and the the history.

[1:15:16] We even named our business after the history of the property and the family.

[1:15:23] We were going to do Red red barn schoolhouse,

[1:15:26] but we decided to cage Farm Schoolhouse to keep the history going.

[1:15:31] We have a great connection.

[1:15:33] I was kind of surprised that it has come to this, to be honest,

[1:15:36] because I feel like we communicate really well.

[1:15:38] We've always been friendly neighbors, but

[1:15:41] what I did say to her is that I'm so sorry you feel this way.

[1:15:45] I cannot change my business model or my business plan.

[1:15:50] Neither kept my parents because we've been approved for it.

[1:15:53] And this is we don't live there.

[1:15:55] This is we've put a lot of money.

[1:15:58] We went through an SBA loan

[1:16:00] because I was school teacher and my parents are in retirement.

[1:16:04] We went through SB alone and we spent a lot of money

[1:16:07] getting the best of like making sure the property

[1:16:10] looked beautiful for the town, making sure that we have like

[1:16:14] we've we've added so much to that property.

[1:16:18] So anyways, I just I want you to know, I didn't say the numbers.

[1:16:22] I did say I can't change my business plan due to

[1:16:26] you feeling it's too loud and I'm sorry you feel that way.

[1:16:29] And I was very apologetic that I felt that she felt that way.

[1:16:32] But it wasn't going to change anything either.

[1:16:36] Just.

[1:16:36] Sorry. The last thing.

[1:16:37] I'm talking circles and I am recovering from leukemia three times, so I apologize.

[1:16:43] My speech and everything's a little off, but the traffic situation.

[1:16:50] Again, I know we're not talking about that,

[1:16:52] but the Henry Bridge was closed, so I was told by a lot of parents

[1:16:56] that there was a lot of traffic coming through Wallace Road due to that,

[1:17:00] as well as a partial close of a bridge near.

[1:17:05] Terrell Hill. Yeah.

[1:17:07] So we did have two accidents this summer on Wallace Road.

[1:17:11] Pretty bad accidents.

[1:17:12] When we called in ourselves that people went off into the ditch we did offer.

[1:17:18] The policeman was very thankful to our school actually, because we we

[1:17:23] he shut down the road right there, and we actually use our private driveway

[1:17:27] to turn everybody around and go back during our aftercare pick up hours, which.

[1:17:32] Is. Not a great timing for an accident.

[1:17:35] But we made it work because we're community members.

[1:17:40] We volunteered at the Pumpkin Regatta.

[1:17:42] We've just

[1:17:43] we've tried to be really good neighbors and really good community members.

[1:17:47] And yeah. That's. All. I have to say.

[1:17:50] Thank you for your time. Do you have any questions. For me?

[1:17:54] I just have.

[1:17:56] I have one question. Yeah. Please.

[1:17:58] Clearly your facility has been in front of the planning board in the past,

[1:18:02] but if by

[1:18:05] some turn of events,

[1:18:07] this board said, yeah, you got to go back to the planning board,

[1:18:10] would you take that as an opportunity to increase the number of students

[1:18:13] from 65 to a larger number that the state would agree to?

[1:18:18] Parents would love me to do that, would love for me to do that?

[1:18:23] We are in a wait list up to 2030.

[1:18:26] Just to give everyone perspective.

[1:18:27] We have about 70 kids on a wait list for this upcoming school year.

[1:18:32] Would I like to offer that?

[1:18:34] Yes. As a business owner, would it make sense?

[1:18:37] Of course it would.

[1:18:38] We have a big property, big expense for small, only three classrooms per day.

[1:18:44] We did extend the our half day

[1:18:47] kindergarten to help with the wraparound programs.

[1:18:49] The why is on a wait list.

[1:18:51] People are begging to get that half day K

[1:18:55] so would I do it?

[1:18:57] I'm not saying I wouldn't, but I can't really.

[1:19:02] I'm not sure I it's a good yeah for my staff.

[1:19:06] I want them to be comfortable, I want them I want as a parent

[1:19:10] feel like they're not in a class with 25 students.

[1:19:13] That's public school. I came from public school.

[1:19:15] I don't want to do that.

[1:19:16] But at the same time, I have to make enough money

[1:19:19] to support my parents that put their retirement money

[1:19:22] into this property and belief in me to make this worth

[1:19:26] their investment.

[1:19:29] And also, yeah, so it's a tough balance.

[1:19:32] Like I of course I have a big loan to fill.

[1:19:35] I have I have a lot of money invested into this business.

[1:19:38] My parents, of course do, but I'm

[1:19:41] the one responsible to pay that loan. So

[1:19:46] yeah, I don't know how to answer that question.

[1:19:48] I just I would not overflow my anyone

[1:19:51] that knows me as a parent to me or

[1:19:55] someone that works for me, they know that

[1:19:57] I would not just I don't add kids just to add kids.

[1:20:01] I want it to be a good experience for everyone involved.

[1:20:06] Anyone else?

[1:20:08] I have a very easy one. Yeah.

[1:20:10] You don't need any waivers to operate any of your any of your programs

[1:20:14] from the state. Okay. Thank you. Welcome.

[1:20:17] Thank you.

[1:20:18] Thank you for your time.

[1:20:20] Okay.

[1:20:20] One last chance. Anyone in the up, sir?

[1:20:23] All right.

[1:20:25] I'm the father.

[1:20:29] Do you still have to tell us your name?

[1:20:33] David.

[1:20:33] Roberta.

[1:20:37] My wife Nancy.

[1:20:37] And I

[1:20:39] loved. The new morning school.

[1:20:42] We know the Shapiro's closely.

[1:20:46] I'm the one that was driving by down

[1:20:49] Wallace Road when the property went up for sale.

[1:20:53] I'm the one that called Sarah and said, boy, if you ever wanted to change lanes

[1:20:57] where you went to school with up for sale.

[1:21:02] I'm the one that

[1:21:05] put together a business plan.

[1:21:07] I went to the bank and they when I had retired and they said,

[1:21:13] I said, I'd like to buy this property and have it retrofitted

[1:21:16] back to a school and get it furnished.

[1:21:18] And can we do this?

[1:21:19] And they asked what my income was, and I

[1:21:23] said, Social Security required distributions.

[1:21:26] They said, you don't qualify, but you might be a really good SBA candidate.

[1:21:31] And so we started the process.

[1:21:35] I met with Curt Lauer, architect in town,

[1:21:38] and the people that had met earlier to do the school.

[1:21:43] They backed away because to purchase the property,

[1:21:47] to do all the incredible upgrades that are required for it,

[1:21:51] to meet all the current codes, to have it hardwired into the fire department,

[1:21:57] to have the whole wiring down in the school that have all the

[1:22:02] all the upgrades,

[1:22:04] new subject, new everything to have it

[1:22:08] meet code.

[1:22:11] Was quite an undertaking.

[1:22:13] And then so he

[1:22:17] the original people were going to use the upstairs apartment

[1:22:20] where the Shapiro's lived to have the space.

[1:22:23] It would require a

[1:22:27] sprinkler system.

[1:22:28] And because it's a private well,

[1:22:31] you'd have to have a certified public water system to have the school now

[1:22:35] and to do that off a well, it was cost prohibitive to have a reservoir.

[1:22:40] So Kurt came up with a plan to do the third classroom in the basement.

[1:22:44] That was the addition in 1986, came up with a plan.

[1:22:48] He said.

[1:22:49] I think the numbers would work with our year round program.

[1:22:52] I put the business plan together, the bank and the SBA.

[1:22:59] Thought my plan was was solid.

[1:23:02] Sarah started to work with the state to find out what it would take to get

[1:23:06] licensed.

[1:23:07] And then I came to the town and I know all of the ministries

[1:23:11] because I came and said, I don't know anything about this.

[1:23:14] Here's my business plan.

[1:23:16] Can we do this?

[1:23:18] And I worked and I mean, I'm in there quite frequently.

[1:23:24] I know almost everybody.

[1:23:25] And I you know, they tell me what to do and I try to do

[1:23:28] it, and.

[1:23:32] It's a it's so far away from whatever I what I did.

[1:23:36] I'm just trying to pass it forward and let a daughter do follow her passion.

[1:23:40] And I could not have got the bank loan

[1:23:45] without the approval from the town.

[1:23:48] I could have.

[1:23:49] We couldn't have gone through the SBA process, and we wouldn't be here today

[1:23:53] unless everyone that was financing this whole thing was assured

[1:23:58] that we had done our due diligence and had gone through proper process.

[1:24:03] And and I just hope that we did that and,

[1:24:06] and that we're doing things in accordance.

[1:24:10] And I can tell you if, when the when the team came out

[1:24:13] this summer, we just opened the door and they walked through with us the

[1:24:16] the past fire chief not to get too derailed.

[1:24:23] When Vassar Electric was

[1:24:26] pointing in all doing all the electric rewiring.

[1:24:30] Apparently they put the wrong light bulbs in with.

[1:24:34] They had to redo the whole ceilings and stuff for a fire code,

[1:24:37] and he required them to redo every light fixture to meet code.

[1:24:43] And and

[1:24:46] safety is my responsibility,

[1:24:49] and I don't want to ever do anything that's going to jeopardize anything.

[1:24:53] And I'm going to if somebody says do something,

[1:24:57] I try to find out a way to get it done.

[1:25:00] Right now, we're in the process of restoring the barn.

[1:25:04] I just worked with team engineering to put a plan together.

[1:25:09] So it's sort of we've been working

[1:25:13] in a certified safe this past summer.

[1:25:17] We took some eaves off because I was afraid they might fall.

[1:25:20] And it just I think we have tried to be good

[1:25:25] stewards, good neighbors and to be compliant.

[1:25:29] And if we ever step out of line,

[1:25:33] we will do everything we possibly can to bring it into compliance.

[1:25:37] I ran a

[1:25:39] business small medical practice for 40 years.

[1:25:42] I know medical compliance.

[1:25:44] I, I live that life

[1:25:47] and and safety

[1:25:50] is in compliance are just top priorities.

[1:25:54] That's my area of responsibility.

[1:25:56] So I work with Jack, I work, I mean all the time.

[1:26:00] Tell me what I need to do and I'll do it anyway.

[1:26:03] That's our story.

[1:26:04] I hope that we've been compliant, but I can assure you, if

[1:26:08] if there's any issues that come up from anywhere, we will do whatever

[1:26:12] we can do to be good stewards.

[1:26:15] On the parking part we put in, Curt recommended three drop off lanes.

[1:26:21] We got the parking all done so we don't have parking.

[1:26:24] Any issues that have come to our attention we've addressed.

[1:26:27] We put signs up for slow traffic for school,

[1:26:32] and we're always

[1:26:33] open for anything we need to do to be better.

[1:26:37] It's 15 acres, and much as they

[1:26:40] stated, much of what's being done, it's done

[1:26:43] way down below, off the road away.

[1:26:47] We wanted to get the playground that was off to the right, down

[1:26:50] under, out, back and and to do the outdoor.

[1:26:53] You have raised garden beds, do stuff

[1:26:56] that kids don't get to do today and the parents love it.

[1:26:59] The golf community loves it where they all love it

[1:27:03] because there's nothing like it.

[1:27:05] And we're fortunate to have two people behind me that

[1:27:10] they're following their passion, and that's what parents always want.

[1:27:12] So thank you for your time.

[1:27:14] Thank you.

[1:27:15] I don't know if there's any questions.

[1:27:19] Thank you sir. Thank you.

[1:27:23] Is there anyone else?

[1:27:26] I do want to say traffic's wonderful.

[1:27:29] They've done wonderful with parking.

[1:27:33] I think this has gone really kind of blown out.

[1:27:35] Do you have a copy of my original complaint in your packet?

[1:27:38] Or just the letter from Jack?

[1:27:41] They have the whole thing. My.

[1:27:45] My my complaint was very small.

[1:27:47] It doesn't complain.

[1:27:48] And yes,

[1:27:49] we did have a really great relationship and I tried bringing pictures

[1:27:53] to the property.

[1:27:53] Everything. Great.

[1:27:54] Great relationship.

[1:27:55] This all had to do with the noise, the extra, the extra, the extra programs

[1:27:59] they have. That's all.

[1:28:00] And all I'm saying is, I think the planning board to look at it

[1:28:04] because they did not go to the planning door,

[1:28:07] they didn't have to go to the planning board, so they haven't.

[1:28:10] So Charlie, you asked about if they didn't go to the planning board

[1:28:13] because they didn't need to for the preschool, that's all.

[1:28:17] Thank you.

[1:28:17] But I'll be extra.

[1:28:18] They they have done really good.

[1:28:21] And we did work together really good.

[1:28:23] This is just a little thing, that's all.

[1:28:26] Not all the other stuff I'm complaining about.

[1:28:28] Thanks. Thank you.

[1:28:31] Anyone else?

[1:28:34] Okay.

[1:28:34] Seeing none, I'm going to close the public hearing. And.

[1:28:40] I'd like to address.

[1:28:42] I'm sorry.

[1:28:44] Oh. Thank you.

[1:28:46] You did the minutes, right, so you would be next.

[1:28:49] Okay.

[1:28:51] I'd like to address the standing of the appeal.

[1:28:54] One second. Otherwise, you'll kill me.

[1:28:57] I hereby a

[1:29:00] appoint you as the voting alternate.

[1:29:02] Sorry.

[1:29:03] Okay. Well, that would be Alan, right?

[1:29:06] I don't think this has. Anything for. The Davis Alan.

[1:29:09] Thank you.

[1:29:09] I don't believe this has a regional development issue.

[1:29:12] Oh, yeah. That's right.

[1:29:13] We need that, too. I don't believe it does.

[1:29:16] It's going to feel something, but I make motion that it has no impact.

[1:29:21] Second. Second.

[1:29:22] All in favor? Christine?

[1:29:25] Oh, actually, yeah.

[1:29:26] This is all part of this.

[1:29:28] Okay. All in favor?

[1:29:30] Opposed? Motion carries.

[1:29:32] There is no regional impact.

[1:29:34] And I want to get the next step that I think the zoning board has

[1:29:38] the case for hearing the request.

[1:29:41] It's an appeal of an administrative decision.

[1:29:44] The letter that was written July 8th,

[1:29:47] 2026 wasn't overly

[1:29:51] specific, with

[1:29:54] sections and verbiage of numbers, just that indicated

[1:29:57] the uses that number for being school aged care, which I think was contained.

[1:30:02] They've expanded what it was way back.

[1:30:06] We we followed that history.

[1:30:08] I tried to get us to get that history for findings of fact,

[1:30:14] and we've got some of the

[1:30:16] planning board minutes from 2020.

[1:30:19] And they discussed that.

[1:30:20] It was later became an after school center as

[1:30:23] well.

[1:30:26] New morning school has been closed for some time,

[1:30:30] but then it's a change from its present use.

[1:30:33] We need to review that.

[1:30:34] That was Jim Raymond for planning Board, Joanne Duffy said.

[1:30:39] That's why they're here for conditional use permit.

[1:30:42] That meeting they came in for, I believe, a site plan and a conditional use permit.

[1:30:49] Jim Raymond says a condition is permanent.

[1:30:50] Site can only view it done at the same time.

[1:30:53] He indicated the condition use permits the zoning matter

[1:30:57] site fans a planning matter.

[1:31:00] I don't believe that's true.

[1:31:01] True because the condition use permits granted from the zoning ordinance

[1:31:05] and the planning board typically executes that.

[1:31:10] So then we fast forward to the notice of decision

[1:31:13] from that meeting and the planning board.

[1:31:17] And said the waiver requests were granted.

[1:31:20] And it's a conditional use request.

[1:31:24] And they made a motion to grant the waivers.

[1:31:27] But all the conditional use issues made a motion to approve the condition

[1:31:32] use permit based on the representation of the applications.

[1:31:35] And it got seconded and they dealt with the conditional use permit.

[1:31:39] Yeah. Planning board dealt with that

[1:31:42] which had some expanded use.

[1:31:47] Then the site plan.

[1:31:49] They made a waiver to the requirement

[1:31:53] that didn't have to be an engineered plan, but to use a marked up plan.

[1:31:56] That was red line from the 86 site plan.

[1:31:59] So the planning board established the history that they acted on a site plan

[1:32:04] and conditional use permit that included school

[1:32:07] age children greater than five.

[1:32:10] So I'm satisfied that.

[1:32:15] Complies and that the applicant hasn't.

[1:32:19] I don't see why there's any argument for that.

[1:32:21] It doesn't, but that's just my opinion for the moment.

[1:32:25] Trying to follow this. It's very convoluted.

[1:32:27] A lot of history here.

[1:32:28] Look how thick the packet is.

[1:32:30] Yeah,

[1:32:32] I don't know if anybody else wants added any other comment to that.

[1:32:36] Well, just without going into Bruce's convoluted history,

[1:32:40] I think that, you know what we're being asked to do by having them

[1:32:45] go to the planning board for conditional use permit,

[1:32:48] is adding an additional requirement to what they've already gone

[1:32:54] over for their state licensing,

[1:32:56] which I don't think is within the legal purview of this board.

[1:33:00] I just, you know, I just don't

[1:33:03] find that, you know, the appeal has any merit.

[1:33:07] I don't think the planning board would accept an application

[1:33:10] with an issue because they'd say, we've already done one.

[1:33:13] They granted a waiver or whatever it was for it.

[1:33:17] That's that's.

[1:33:18] Sure.

[1:33:18] I just think that the the heart of the issue is

[1:33:21] the applicant is wondering, are they following all the rules?

[1:33:24] And I think

[1:33:25] from what we've gathered, I think that they are following all the rules and their

[1:33:30] their licenses are all valid and being followed.

[1:33:36] My only comment was given, given the,

[1:33:41] the pieces of their license

[1:33:43] and our lack of

[1:33:46] complete definition in our table of uses.

[1:33:50] I actually, based on their license and description,

[1:33:55] would consider it a kindergarten or elementary school as well.

[1:33:59] So given that that is permitted by right in agricultural zone.

[1:34:04] So I personally wouldn't

[1:34:08] see a zoning need for a conditional use permit period.

[1:34:13] That's my take on this.

[1:34:17] So that being said,

[1:34:19] is there any further discussion or is there a motion.

[1:34:23] Offer, a motion that we reject

[1:34:27] the application to the

[1:34:30] we uphold the zoning officers decision

[1:34:35] that it does not require a conditional use permit

[1:34:40] for this activity.

[1:34:42] Okay. Motion upholding.

[1:34:44] The letter.

[1:34:46] Second by John.

[1:34:47] All in favor? II opposed.

[1:34:51] Motion carries.

[1:35:01] How about a about a three minute.

[1:35:02] Break.

[1:35:03] For the next one. We will now.

[1:35:06] Enter into a legal with a five minute break

[1:35:09] and restart at 8:30 p.m..

[1:40:09] So we will resume the meeting

[1:40:10] now for this next hearing.

[1:40:15] Charlie, you will be voting alternate.

[1:40:17] Please.

[1:40:20] Craig. Drawback.

[1:40:21] Applicant owner is seeking variances to remove and rebuild a garage

[1:40:25] that is five feet from the side property lines, whereas a 25 side

[1:40:29] setback is required for section 4.3 of the ordinance.

[1:40:33] The proposed structures will also exceed the maximum allowable ten building

[1:40:38] coverage on the lot per section 4.3 of the town's only ordinance,

[1:40:42] as the structures will approximately cover 15.1% of the lot.

[1:40:47] The property is located at 129 Mountain Base Road.

[1:40:50] Map 41, lot 2000. I'm sorry.

[1:40:53] Zoned agricultural.

[1:40:55] We have a motion for regional impact.

[1:40:58] I'll move. No regional impact. Motion for.

[1:41:01] Second round. Second for Bruce.

[1:41:03] All in favor? Aye. Opposed?

[1:41:06] Motion carries.

[1:41:09] Applicant to come on up.

[1:41:11] I have a question.

[1:41:12] Is Charlie the voting alternate in this one? Yep.

[1:41:22] Who you are.

[1:41:23] And my name is correct.

[1:41:25] I hope the fact that I don't have ten people supporting me doesn't

[1:41:29] go against me.

[1:41:32] Yeah.

[1:41:32] So I was here in April for something similar

[1:41:35] on the same property,

[1:41:38] for a variance on

[1:41:40] building a house that's already underway.

[1:41:43] And yes, I hope to do.

[1:41:45] I wasn't planning on doing this with the garage, but the current one is

[1:41:51] the front of.

[1:41:51] It's almost half a foot

[1:41:55] lower than the back, so it's kind of sinking.

[1:41:58] And I felt like I didn't realize that in April

[1:42:02] when I was coming for the first variance,

[1:42:06] but I'm.

[1:42:08] Wanting to basically replace the garage structure and the

[1:42:14] replace it with the

[1:42:15] garage and the same exact place

[1:42:18] of the same exact footprint.

[1:42:23] That's basically it.

[1:42:27] I talked to my the the butter next to me.

[1:42:31] Who's the five foot

[1:42:34] property line, the butter mentioned in there.

[1:42:37] And he's like, well, if you need to, I don't intend to do that.

[1:42:43] But just just for note.

[1:42:49] I don't think that.

[1:42:54] Based on the House

[1:42:58] not being an issue for the reasons stated in there,

[1:43:01] I feel like the garage should be a similar issue.

[1:43:06] Craig, did you consider

[1:43:08] attaching the garage to the house in some way

[1:43:12] to try to consolidate the footprint?

[1:43:19] Is your house design done?

[1:43:22] I have framing and a roof at this point.

[1:43:25] Oh. I'm sorry.

[1:43:26] Yep. I get it, kind of.

[1:43:31] Figuring out the garage

[1:43:34] part and the fact that it was sinking and everything kind of happened

[1:43:38] after things were already ready in motion with the with the house.

[1:43:44] That makes sense. Yeah.

[1:43:47] This was the trolley horse.

[1:43:48] Correct. Yeah. Okay, I got you.

[1:43:52] So the 15.

[1:43:54] Point 1% coverage of the lot is the same right now as it will be after.

[1:43:59] That's not a changing number one way or another. Correct.

[1:44:02] Because I'll still be doing a 20 by 20.

[1:44:05] Same.

[1:44:11] Question.

[1:44:12] Do you have any room to move it further away

[1:44:15] from the lot line in any way?

[1:44:18] There's almost immediately

[1:44:21] to the right of it is the tank.

[1:44:25] Well, there's the tank just

[1:44:28] to the corner of it, but the leach field is right next to it also.

[1:44:31] So I mean like within a couple of feet.

[1:44:36] It's possible it could go.

[1:44:39] Same foundation. Everything.

[1:44:41] Sit right on it.

[1:44:42] Down the woods we build on top.

[1:44:45] Correct.

[1:44:50] Same foundation.

[1:44:50] No no. No no. No no no.

[1:44:54] The foundation. Yeah.

[1:44:55] New foundation.

[1:44:56] Same same same.

[1:44:58] And everything is going to be okay.

[1:45:00] It's poured and then it's going to be poured.

[1:45:03] Or is it like the original is what might have been a block or the old.

[1:45:07] It's it's it's concrete, but I'm gone.

[1:45:11] It's just sinking.

[1:45:13] Thinking, cracking jokes.

[1:45:15] Yeah.

[1:45:17] Replacing what's there.

[1:45:19] Correct.

[1:45:21] As I'm looking at the picture

[1:45:24] of the house from the front on the property.

[1:45:27] This is located at about two the rear of the house

[1:45:30] at roughly 10:00 or thereabouts.

[1:45:34] 10 to 11:00.

[1:45:35] Yeah. So.

[1:45:38] Just back left.

[1:45:49] I just wanted to mention that

[1:45:51] it may not be

[1:45:52] officially condemned, but we do have a statute that in

[1:45:56] an ordinance that allows someone for a condemned building to rebuild it

[1:46:02] in the same footprint if it was a non-conforming structure.

[1:46:07] It's not condemned, but there's just support in our ordinances

[1:46:10] for taking non-conforming structures that are dilapidated

[1:46:14] and rebuilding it in the same location.

[1:46:18] And I think we're treating it as a replacement

[1:46:21] in kind, essentially.

[1:46:26] Anyone else?

[1:46:28] Do we need him?

[1:46:30] We have to grant him a variance of this.

[1:46:32] I don't understand.

[1:46:34] If he's replacing like.

[1:46:35] A yeah.

[1:46:38] I was out.

[1:46:42] You excuse excused.

[1:46:44] Well, I think we had another garage situation.

[1:46:47] I don't remember the.

[1:46:49] Within three feet of the string.

[1:46:51] Yeah.

[1:46:51] And I and that one, I think with the same situation.

[1:46:54] It was a complete tear down and rebuild on the same footprint.

[1:46:57] I don't think there was any changes in.

[1:46:59] 45 grown.

[1:47:00] And and

[1:47:02] and we were saying that because they're, they're tearing it down to the level

[1:47:06] and then rebuilding it is a new structure, even if it is on the same footprint.

[1:47:10] Because the foundation is being removed to be certified.

[1:47:13] Yeah. Okay. Right, right.

[1:47:16] All right.

[1:47:17] So you can sit there.

[1:47:20] Is there anybody who wants to speak on this in the public

[1:47:24] seeing no hands, I will.

[1:47:26] Do you have anything else you want to add?

[1:47:28] I don't. Think so.

[1:47:29] All right, then, I shall close the public hearing.

[1:47:32] Board motion or discussion?

[1:47:34] I think it comes down to replacing.

[1:47:38] I won't say the structure, but one in poor condition

[1:47:41] with a new structure in the same location which is not conforming.

[1:47:47] And it's if there was to make it

[1:47:51] more conforming, it runs into a septic.

[1:47:54] And is that is it a tank?

[1:47:57] It's a small field.

[1:47:59] Yeah, right.

[1:48:00] It's a field.

[1:48:01] So he doesn't have the option

[1:48:04] of rebuilding in a conforming space.

[1:48:08] It'd be no different than just.

[1:48:12] Siding on the existing building and whatever.

[1:48:14] So we're not the broken foundation.

[1:48:16] Right? Right, right.

[1:48:17] So I don't see any.

[1:48:21] Whatever it's

[1:48:23] going through the criteria, but

[1:48:26] I would make a motion to campus variance

[1:48:31] again, going through the conditions that typically would by

[1:48:35] the granting would not be contrary to public interest, because he's replacing

[1:48:40] an existing structure,

[1:48:43] basically like the light,

[1:48:46] the spirit of the ordinance

[1:48:48] wouldn't be observed again, because he's replacing an existing

[1:48:53] non-conforming, but he's replacing it like polite.

[1:48:57] He's not encroaching anymore.

[1:49:00] Granting of the variance,

[1:49:03] but do substantial justice.

[1:49:06] For that reason, the ability to make a repair and still maintain

[1:49:10] that nonconformity, but with a new building

[1:49:14] for the following reasons.

[1:49:17] The value of the surrounding properties would not be diminished,

[1:49:21] probably because a new structure is a much better value

[1:49:24] than an existing dilapidated or poor condition structure.

[1:49:31] The hardships I think the hardships are again

[1:49:34] within our zoning ordinance to require the rebuilding

[1:49:40] to to make it less

[1:49:44] nonconforming.

[1:49:46] He can't because of the layout of the land.

[1:49:49] He runs into a septic.

[1:49:50] It's a small lot that large.

[1:49:52] I would say the hardship is the lot size.

[1:49:54] It's a very, very small lot in the agricultural zone. Yes.

[1:49:58] Nowhere below.

[1:49:59] So again, it runs with the property.

[1:50:02] It's not by his choice.

[1:50:04] He's limited in what choices he has to make it conforming or complying.

[1:50:07] But therefore I think we should.

[1:50:12] Second.

[1:50:14] Second from Charlie.

[1:50:16] Any discussion?

[1:50:17] All in favor?

[1:50:19] Opposed?

[1:50:20] Motion carries.

[1:50:23] You have your variance, sir.

[1:50:25] Can I.

[1:50:25] Can I ask a question?

[1:50:28] 30 days, subject to an appeal.

[1:50:32] Is there a. Way for me to go?

[1:50:34] Like if I find. As.

[1:50:37] I excavate that. I have, like, two.

[1:50:39] Feet of play to work with towards that leach field?

[1:50:43] Can I go

[1:50:46] like 2 to 3ft?

[1:50:49] I, I would, I would.

[1:50:51] Miss variance or is there a would there be more that.

[1:50:54] The variance was like for like so I would I,

[1:50:59] I can't answer that because I'm not the zoning enforcement officer.

[1:51:04] But given the fact that in the past we've always said

[1:51:07] like if if that's what the discussion is, that's what it's supposed to be.

[1:51:11] So I would.

[1:51:14] Even though the the variation that you might present

[1:51:18] is a betterment less nonconforming, you probably should come back

[1:51:22] just for the record of new planets in the discussion.

[1:51:26] But again, really it's a it's only administrators

[1:51:30] officers decisions.

[1:51:38] All right.

[1:51:40] That one is all set.

[1:51:44] I don't know if Jack will be available

[1:51:46] after the meeting, but.

[1:51:49] Yeah.

[1:51:50] All right.

[1:51:52] For this next

[1:51:55] next hearing we

[1:51:57] Kristen, you will be the voting alternate.

[1:52:01] Jeffrey Ellen, applicant owner

[1:52:03] is seeking variances to allow for the replacement of stairs

[1:52:06] on a single family home with two decks and stairs on the front

[1:52:09] and front side of the home, as well as on the front slash middle of the home.

[1:52:14] The proposed deck and stairs on the front side of the home.

[1:52:18] It's a lot of slashes here.

[1:52:20] We'll we'll be approximately 21ft from the property line,

[1:52:24] and the proposed deck stairs on the front middle of the home will be approximately

[1:52:28] 18ft from the property from the front property line.

[1:52:32] Both structures are required to have a 25ft front setback from the property line.

[1:52:37] As perception.

[1:52:38] 4.3 the table of Dimensional Regulations of the Goff Sound Zoning Ordinance.

[1:52:43] The property is located at 48 Laurel Street, map 14, lot 49, Zoned

[1:52:49] Residential two.

[1:52:50] And I will entertain a motion for reasonable impact.

[1:52:54] Or no motion. There's no regional impact.

[1:52:58] Second

[1:53:00] then got beat out.

[1:53:00] So motion by second from all in favor I opposed.

[1:53:06] Motion carries.

[1:53:08] Hi, I'm Jeff Allen, the owner of the property at 48 Laurel Street.

[1:53:13] And we would like to replace our stone

[1:53:17] steps with Trex decking.

[1:53:21] And the footprint is going to be a little bit larger

[1:53:24] than they are now.

[1:53:31] I've got pictures.

[1:53:32] This is our current steps and cracks.

[1:53:38] Damage.

[1:53:39] And then we want to replace them with this is the front of the house.

[1:53:45] So if anybody on the he's showing pictures on.

[1:53:47] We have it in a packet.

[1:53:48] I think these are some saying the one.

[1:53:50] Oh they're the same ones. Okay.

[1:53:52] More pictures. Okay. Yeah.

[1:53:54] Just a little bit larger.

[1:53:56] I'd like to expand the front.

[1:54:00] The current stone steps wouldn't fit within

[1:54:04] the zoning regulations.

[1:54:06] They must have had a variance to build those.

[1:54:10] Meaning that current

[1:54:11] front steps are not code compliant right now.

[1:54:15] Compliant?

[1:54:16] The the house is 25ft from the line,

[1:54:20] and then the steps come out about five feet in front of it.

[1:54:23] Okay.

[1:54:24] If the I'm just trying to say if the steps were

[1:54:30] if the steps met the setback requirement,

[1:54:33] would they be compliant or are they

[1:54:36] too small or you can't be.

[1:54:39] There yet.

[1:54:41] You have to be.

[1:54:42] It has to be larger if you're going to do it under.

[1:54:45] Current code. Okay.

[1:54:47] Okay.

[1:54:48] That answers my question.

[1:55:01] Got some damage

[1:55:02] and I current steps we have to do something.

[1:55:07] Which of them do you use as the primary entrance.

[1:55:11] The one in the middle of the front of the front of the house or.

[1:55:15] The one side entrance?

[1:55:17] The side entrance was still in the driveway.

[1:55:20] That's the one used for the main entrance.

[1:55:23] The majority of the time.

[1:55:26] Right.

[1:55:27] Is that poured in place or is it a precast drop?

[1:55:30] The one on the right hand side is a precast drop in.

[1:55:34] The one on the front of the house is poured in place.

[1:55:38] Okay.

[1:55:39] Both of them will have to be demolished.

[1:55:41] That's gonna be fun.

[1:55:42] Yeah.

[1:55:53] We have spoken to our neighbors and.

[1:55:58] Yeah.

[1:55:58] Yes, there is an email.

[1:55:59] That came in. Well,

[1:56:02] it's part of the packet, I think, but I'll read it just in case.

[1:56:07] I came in on August 31st at 10 p.m.

[1:56:12] from Michelle and Claire.

[1:56:16] And that would be the person who lives at 50 Laurel Street.

[1:56:21] I am fine with the Allen

[1:56:22] putting decking against their house and in their front yard.

[1:56:25] I am unable to attend September 1st.

[1:56:27] Please consider this email to be in favor of the project proposed at use 46.

[1:56:32] But it's 48 Little Street.

[1:56:35] Thank you Michele.

[1:56:40] Okay.

[1:56:40] What is the hardship?

[1:56:44] What's the hardship part of this?

[1:56:46] That's always the tricky thing for us.

[1:56:48] If we can understand what is it that's unique about the property that

[1:56:53] such. That.

[1:56:55] The ordinance should is an undue hardship on you?

[1:57:00] Well, the house is 25ft.

[1:57:03] The front of the house is 25ft from the property line.

[1:57:07] So anything that we build in front of the house is going to be violating the

[1:57:12] the ordinance.

[1:57:15] Right.

[1:57:16] And you do need steps to get out.

[1:57:17] We need steps to get out.

[1:57:19] That sounds like a hardship to me.

[1:57:24] Did break it apart there.

[1:57:27] Yeah. So the there really shifted.

[1:57:29] We've lived there 13, 14 years before us.

[1:57:34] They looked like they've really settled.

[1:57:36] Somebody added another stair on top.

[1:57:39] It's kind of hacked.

[1:57:41] And now it's really getting kind of wonky.

[1:57:44] And then the side ones are just straight up broken by the winter, last winter.

[1:57:49] There's a hardship right there.

[1:57:51] So the board in place, one is settling into the ground and brought, in other.

[1:57:57] Words, quite a lot.

[1:57:59] Jack the so by code they had

[1:58:02] the steps have to be a specific size for entry right? Yes.

[1:58:06] For entry for them to open.

[1:58:07] The door on both the, on both the side and the front.

[1:58:10] Correct. Okay.

[1:58:11] So I mean the hardship is, is that

[1:58:14] if we say no, he has no way to enter exit his home?

[1:58:17] That sounds like a pretty big hardship to me.

[1:58:23] Okay.

[1:58:27] Just any further discussion.

[1:58:31] Okay.

[1:58:32] I will close the public hearing, seeing that there's nobody

[1:58:35] left in the audience.

[1:58:38] Board discussion.

[1:58:39] Motion.

[1:58:48] Seems pretty straightforward to me.

[1:58:52] Needs to be safe.

[1:58:58] I don't have anybody jump in at one.

[1:59:00] I will.

[1:59:01] Make a motion to approve a variance for

[1:59:05] 48 Laurel Street map 14, lot 49,

[1:59:09] to allow for the proposed deck stairs

[1:59:14] in both the front and the side of the home

[1:59:16] to be

[1:59:19] to be repaired

[1:59:21] as written in the request.

[1:59:26] Going through the criterium,

[1:59:29] which is in a different part of.

[1:59:34] Granting the variance would not be contrary

[1:59:36] to the public interest, because I don't believe anybody in the public

[1:59:40] would really be upset about somebody being able to enter or exit their home.

[1:59:44] The spirit of the ordinance is observed because.

[1:59:50] I don't believe that there is any spirit of the ordinance

[1:59:53] that would deny somebody to fix something that would allow them

[1:59:56] entry into their home.

[1:59:57] That has to violate the code.

[2:00:00] Granted, the variance would do substantial justice because.

[2:00:05] He can now have steps to enter

[2:00:08] and safe steps to enter

[2:00:11] and exit the home values of surrounding properties will not be diminished.

[2:00:15] I think that's a given, I think,

[2:00:19] yeah, that's fine.

[2:00:21] And then in terms of the hardship, owing to special conditions

[2:00:25] of the property that distinguish it from other properties in the area,

[2:00:29] the Nile of the variance would be an unnecessary hardship because

[2:00:34] there is no relationship between the public

[2:00:37] that that would have any impact on this at all,

[2:00:42] other than the fact that the person cannot use their home

[2:00:46] and the proposed uses a reasonable one because they're stairs to enter the home.

[2:00:52] Well.

[2:00:53] There's the motion on the table.

[2:00:56] Second from.

[2:00:58] All in favor.

[2:01:00] Opposed?

[2:01:01] Motion carries. Thank you.

[2:01:04] I should have gone first.

[2:01:09] I don't.

[2:01:09] Make draw.

[2:01:12] 30 days.

[2:01:14] Yes, there could be an appeal on that within 30 days.

[2:01:17] Just be aware. Of that.

[2:01:20] A disgruntled neighbor.

[2:01:23] All right.

[2:01:24] Correspondence. Bruce.

[2:01:26] Go ahead. Yes.

[2:01:28] So again, I was tasked in the last meeting

[2:01:31] to come up with some of the requests for topics,

[2:01:36] present topics from the zoning ordinance that we feel

[2:01:39] that the planning Board to address into the zoning ordinance,

[2:01:43] drafted up in the form of a memo

[2:01:46] to the Planning Board from the Zoning Board of Adjustment,

[2:01:49] the subject is Items and topics for zoning Ordinance amendments.

[2:01:53] Consideration from the Zeba to present to the Planning Board

[2:01:57] one definition of multifamily.

[2:02:00] I think we've asked that around a lot.

[2:02:03] Two Adu requirements need to be the same as the single family.

[2:02:08] For example, strike the section referenced 5.2.7,

[2:02:14] which has a separate requirement of satisfying requirements

[2:02:18] above what the single family does as a requirement.

[2:02:22] And some of that might be.

[2:02:23] I looked back at what we voted with.

[2:02:26] Everything was happening last time.

[2:02:28] We look back at what we voted in in the spring for the elections,

[2:02:32] and there was an update to the definition of the Adu,

[2:02:36] but it was voted no by the public.

[2:02:39] So that might be why we're seeing so many,

[2:02:42] is that there was please vote for this.

[2:02:45] In order for this to be updated in accordance with the state laws

[2:02:49] and the public vote, to. Know.

[2:02:51] Whether we still have.

[2:02:52] But we still have to uphold the state laws.

[2:02:54] I know.

[2:02:54] So that might be why the definition of ADUs not including detached,

[2:03:00] for instance, it's still doesn't quite add up and I think that is why.

[2:03:04] Okay.

[2:03:05] So again, we'll probably try it again this year.

[2:03:09] I would.

[2:03:09] Say yeah. Thank you for that.

[2:03:11] So they might even have red lines saved from last year that apply right.

[2:03:18] Third topic was detached home occupations.

[2:03:21] Again I throw this out.

[2:03:22] Really the planning board

[2:03:23] is the one that supposed to craft the ordinance and the details.

[2:03:27] Sometimes we can suggest some of that to help make it easy for them.

[2:03:31] But so for that instance, and we've had a couple

[2:03:34] that have detached home occupations in the past, we've had to deal with that more

[2:03:38] so as a variance because it's not addressed in that loading ordinance.

[2:03:41] So do we want to do different criteria new classification,

[2:03:46] cottage industries, another name for those when they're outside of the home self.

[2:03:50] Just food for the planning board to run forward with.

[2:03:53] But we don't have

[2:03:54] something in the zoning ordinance, so now they have to come in for a variance

[2:03:58] if it's a detached home occupation, multiple principal uses on one lot.

[2:04:04] That's the new law that says we can have mixed residential

[2:04:07] in with a commercial development going forward.

[2:04:10] And that's still being cranked out to sausage in the state level as well.

[2:04:14] But we need to update as to allow that kind of mixed use

[2:04:20] construction business or use.

[2:04:22] That's not a defined use,

[2:04:27] but we need the definition details in table of uses and or supplemental.

[2:04:31] Otherwise they come in for a variance.

[2:04:33] They want to do a construction business because it's not defined.

[2:04:37] Lastly rename the a the agricultural zone

[2:04:41] to rural the roof zone keeping all the uses dimensions.

[2:04:45] As before, it's just a name change to reflect the current actual use graph.

[2:04:50] Sounds no longer an agricultural zoning ordinance came in 63.

[2:04:54] It was pretty much agricultural.

[2:04:56] Was all the outlying.

[2:04:58] Now it's pretty much rural, but agriculture is still used.

[2:05:02] That's permitted.

[2:05:03] I think that would just clarify it because it's always weird

[2:05:06] when do an application.

[2:05:08] It's in the agricultural zone.

[2:05:09] It's not agricultural use.

[2:05:11] It's it's a real use

[2:05:14] district.

[2:05:14] So with that, if there's any other topics that the board

[2:05:18] wants to bring to the planning board, we can do that.

[2:05:22] We should vote on this present

[2:05:24] to the planning board so they can get into their schedule

[2:05:27] for getting amendments to the zoning ordinance. So,

[2:05:32] when does that have to get in by?

[2:05:36] Is it before our next zoning board meeting?

[2:05:41] Just right after.

[2:05:44] Okay.

[2:05:48] I might suggest that we discuss this,

[2:05:52] but hold off until next month when things comes back.

[2:05:55] And if she doesn't come back, then we vote.

[2:05:57] Then.

[2:05:58] Because there would be a sitting, sitting.

[2:06:00] Member of the board voting for that.

[2:06:03] That's one of the things.

[2:06:04] The other thing was, given tonight's discussion,

[2:06:08] we noticed that there's a absence in definitions for school.

[2:06:13] The school. School, kids.

[2:06:15] Dinner. Garden.

[2:06:17] I suggest that we add that to this list so that they can define it based on state

[2:06:22] definitions of those industries, those pieces of the industry.

[2:06:26] Especially because after school care and summer

[2:06:30] camps and things like that are a growing need.

[2:06:33] I think that there's

[2:06:34] going to be more business owners looking to open up businesses, and it's

[2:06:38] kind of a black hole there for them, and maybe we can make some ordinances,

[2:06:42] just make it a. Little more clear.

[2:06:44] Education definitions in our zoning ordinance should mirror match.

[2:06:49] They can kind of the same language.

[2:06:54] Okay,

[2:06:55] I'll craft another at that is another item for the next meeting.

[2:06:59] Yeah, there's infant toddler care.

[2:07:02] School age.

[2:07:03] Goes all the way up to G something that h.

[2:07:06] And it's it's an adventure, I'll tell you that.

[2:07:11] It's sort of interesting is the state has that form.

[2:07:13] It's a zoning verification form.

[2:07:16] But there's only three.

[2:07:18] Right.

[2:07:19] So but a through something

[2:07:23] look at the group care.

[2:07:24] Right

[2:07:26] c c g.

[2:07:27] At the very end.

[2:07:29] Yeah.

[2:07:29] So that's goes from infant care all the way up to school

[2:07:35] elementary or whatever kindergarten and beyond.

[2:07:39] That's why it's nice.

[2:07:39] That's why it's hard for local definitions to say yes, we comply with the state

[2:07:44] if like ours only has up to five, we don't have all the aces.

[2:07:48] I mean, we go a through, I mean, see through, whatever it is.

[2:07:52] Three of them. Well,

[2:07:55] we can group with this in some way.

[2:07:57] Like it should speak the same language.

[2:08:00] Yeah.

[2:08:00] That that was what the point that I was trying to make is that

[2:08:04] because they there can be a lot of weeds that grow very fast

[2:08:07] because of those types of definitions.

[2:08:11] And I think from the zoning ordinance,

[2:08:14] an after school program might be different than a full day program.

[2:08:18] And I'm just thinking

[2:08:19] planning board for traffic, whatever, just other things of planning board stuff

[2:08:23] that they need to deal with that differs

[2:08:25] with each of those different classifications, I would imagine somewhat,

[2:08:30] but. Okay,

[2:08:33] at least the topic is going to get so we can get

[2:08:36] marriage to that.

[2:08:39] Educational institution.

[2:08:41] Yeah. Preschool educational.

[2:08:44] I think it's an Irish 170 that had it.

[2:08:50] Was on.

[2:08:50] That form.

[2:08:51] Sorry sugar from that one. So yes.

[2:08:54] Just somewhat related to what Bruce is saying.

[2:08:57] I suspect you all got that slide deck

[2:09:01] that I had Patty send out to everybody on the

[2:09:05] that wonderful hour of the state planning office similar tonight.

[2:09:09] And the one thing that made me think, and I think it's a long term development

[2:09:15] thing, but the way that new law is crafted

[2:09:18] as far as multifamily

[2:09:22] in commercial zones,

[2:09:26] what it's going to do, I see the ghost town in the long run.

[2:09:29] It's going to force all multifamily development

[2:09:34] basically into the 114 corridor,

[2:09:38] because the requirements of the law and there are two

[2:09:42] that are in you've got to have all the infrastructure pieces.

[2:09:46] You've got to have the road, the water and the sewer.

[2:09:51] And in particular, because the question is raised by when it was answered

[2:09:57] by, I think there's no a Hodge that I believe was the chief planner,

[2:10:02] private sewer

[2:10:04] built by a developer will not make it

[2:10:08] doesn't fulfill the law.

[2:10:12] You've got to have some sort of a public sewer system,

[2:10:16] whether it's tax supported or whether it's like gloves,

[2:10:20] town sewer districts where it is supported by user fees.

[2:10:24] It cannot be a private sewer system.

[2:10:27] So what do we got here?

[2:10:30] We got one. We got 114. Yeah.

[2:10:33] It did have a provision for the developers to pay for upgrades

[2:10:37] to the public sewer system and somehow give money towards that.

[2:10:42] It also took away any rights for us to mandate a conditional use permit.

[2:10:47] Mixed use first floor use is allowed by right

[2:10:50] to have multifamily in the commercial district.

[2:10:54] But I.

[2:10:55] I just. Have. The district.

[2:10:58] Unfortunately, I'm looking at the apartment

[2:11:01] road that you have for and seven think River road, River

[2:11:05] road in Hooksett heading up toward the Walmart or

[2:11:10] I can't remember the name of the street in bed,

[2:11:13] but there's another line of apartment buildings there.

[2:11:17] And problem with Goffstown.

[2:11:18] And this is the discussion that Denise and I have had on a number of occasions.

[2:11:23] The Goffstown has got very limited commercial space.

[2:11:28] We try like hell to preserve it, and every time we do,

[2:11:32] the state says story.

[2:11:35] Oh, maybe that's something that that should be brought up to the

[2:11:39] to the planning boards as well.

[2:11:41] Because if it needs to be rezoned

[2:11:44] to protect that space, that might be an option for the town.

[2:11:47] If it really feels like that.

[2:11:49] I mean, this is not anything

[2:11:51] that's going to be tomorrow or even next month or next year.

[2:11:55] But, you know, if you look 5 or 10 years out, we've already seen it.

[2:12:00] I think of the development that's going in just to the east of the shell there,

[2:12:05] that's been sitting there now for 2 or 3 years or.

[2:12:10] They're.

[2:12:11] Out, you know, which is a commercial, a commercial property.

[2:12:16] You know, we're looking we're looking at that kind of development up and down.

[2:12:20] One or as far as the sewer line runs. So

[2:12:26] yeah.

[2:12:27] Okay.

[2:12:27] That said, my piece that I'm just thinking of what

[2:12:31] the future of the town can look like.

[2:12:35] Yeah.

[2:12:35] The only buts are, is it has to have the sewer and the water and the roads.

[2:12:41] But that's the only thing that can hold it up

[2:12:44] because it's permitted by right now.

[2:12:45] So it has to be public sewer.

[2:12:48] Yeah. But that that was the caveat.

[2:12:50] It has to. Be and it's immediately effective.

[2:12:53] It's not next year.

[2:12:54] It's immediately as of last this past July.

[2:12:59] Yeah they've made it retroactive.

[2:13:02] But yeah, developers in this town have been trying for years along 114

[2:13:09] only because that's where all the infrastructure is already in place.

[2:13:14] And if they're wrongfully denied, they're allowed to seek

[2:13:17] reasonable compensation for their attorney's fees from the town's.

[2:13:22] Hall, as before, the housing

[2:13:23] Appeals Board again. So.

[2:13:33] So because the gender says

[2:13:37] that there should be a vote to submit to the planning board.

[2:13:41] I wouldn't say either we do that or somebody make a motion. To.

[2:13:46] Move that.

[2:13:47] We table any vote on this

[2:13:52] of topics for the planning board.

[2:13:55] The next regular meeting.

[2:13:58] For this vote, Davis, you'll be the voting alternate.

[2:14:02] I will second that.

[2:14:04] So we have a motion on the table

[2:14:05] to push this table, this until the next meeting a second.

[2:14:09] So all in favor I opposed.

[2:14:12] Motion carries.

[2:14:16] Okay.

[2:14:16] So the next thing on the agenda is the email from Joanne

[2:14:20] regarding density calculations in the zoning

[2:14:23] ordinance.

[2:14:32] Updating some of these.

[2:14:37] Town okay.

[2:14:37] That's right.

[2:14:39] That's great.

[2:14:44] For round down right up

[2:14:47] for the area.

[2:15:21] Comments or otherwise.

[2:15:25] Then we shall just note that

[2:15:27] those received from the board.

[2:15:30] And then the last one was the one I just found,

[2:15:33] which is the update to the application fees.

[2:15:39] I think it's it's a vote to.

[2:15:43] Agree with the staff recommendations

[2:15:45] and on voting on the fees.

[2:15:49] Yeah. I was going to ask if.

[2:15:50] We can.

[2:15:51] If we can do that.

[2:15:58] Point of adjustment

[2:15:59] has the authority to make the necessary change to the application fees.

[2:16:03] So I guess I guess we do have

[2:16:06] to make changes to the fees.

[2:16:17] The last sentence says please vote.

[2:16:18] The staff's recommended.

[2:16:22] Application fees.

[2:16:25] I, I guess my only question of this was

[2:16:28] it would have been nice to see what the current costs are.

[2:16:33] Not second page.

[2:16:37] No, those are the fees.

[2:16:39] That's not the case.

[2:16:40] Oh, I see, just like it.

[2:16:41] It's stating here

[2:16:42] that to cover the cost of the union either classified ads and postage.

[2:16:47] I would like to see the costs.

[2:16:49] So we know that okay.

[2:16:51] This is a reasonable adjustment.

[2:16:53] I mean not not that I doubt

[2:16:57] not that I doubt them, but I think

[2:16:59] it would make good fiduciary sense to know the cost.

[2:17:03] Patti.

[2:17:04] Monday, next. Monday.

[2:17:06] You'll be back on Monday. Yes.

[2:17:07] So we want to know, like what the union leader charges, right.

[2:17:13] Because that goes into the fees. Right.

[2:17:15] So if if we're saying that the we're going to increase the fees

[2:17:19] for a residential house by $75,

[2:17:23] I would like to be able to justify why.

[2:17:26] So if.

[2:17:28] We're going up the dollar, the notice on the butter fees $12.

[2:17:32] Now a butter notification fee is $13.

[2:17:37] I think that's what she's mentioning on that line item is the union leader.

[2:17:42] You know, notice

[2:17:45] whatever that.

[2:17:46] No. The notice in. The paper.

[2:17:47] No. The other notification fee is.

[2:17:49] Oh, maybe that's.

[2:17:50] The sort of the post sending it out.

[2:17:53] The I would imagine that the fees for the union leader ad

[2:17:57] and whatnot are part of the fee itself,

[2:18:01] not the butter notification fees, I think.

[2:18:04] I think I'd like to just see a little bit more clarification on

[2:18:08] on where the costs are coming from to be able to justify to the public.

[2:18:13] Hey, this is why we're increasing the peace by this much.

[2:18:17] I. I trust.

[2:18:18] Staff like this is this is the minutia.

[2:18:22] That.

[2:18:23] You know, they figure this stuff out and they do the math

[2:18:26] and they take the time to prepare and give it to us.

[2:18:29] It's like, well, all.

[2:18:31] All the way you have to look at

[2:18:34] if it were minor increases, but you've got.

[2:18:38] These are significant. Doubling.

[2:18:41] But you've got a doubling and residential a you've got a doubling.

[2:18:45] You have more than a doubling in residential application

[2:18:49] and a doubling and residential be.

[2:19:02] Yeah.

[2:19:03] So I mean, it's up to the board as to how we, how we want to push this forward.

[2:19:08] If we're going to vote to do that, then that's fine.

[2:19:12] So Charlie, you'll be devoted in alternate.

[2:19:15] I guess the other option is to request that

[2:19:19] there be a little bit more information.

[2:19:21] If we wanted to vote on the next time.

[2:19:22] I don't know if there's a deadline that they have to be getting this

[2:19:26] in, like by next month or I think I'm sure it's, it's,

[2:19:31] Well, I would imagine if anything it would have.

[2:19:34] Well, no, because we get to set them.

[2:19:37] On the budget. It's part of the budget.

[2:19:39] So when does that need to be in that information?

[2:19:43] Probably by October 1st.

[2:19:47] First, second weekend. Okay.

[2:19:49] Well if it I mean, if it's the second week of October, then

[2:19:52] we have a meeting in there, be able to have the information

[2:19:56] that that's just that's my my opinion.

[2:19:59] And mine's more procedural.

[2:20:02] I didn't think that had the authority to set fees.

[2:20:08] I had to have a public hearing.

[2:20:12] Just like this.

[2:20:13] Like we can just like we can justify raising fees also.

[2:20:18] To hold a public hearing.

[2:20:20] Oh, they. Don't really know. They do not.

[2:20:23] But I think I know

[2:20:25] I, I always like to on the side of letting people know things.

[2:20:29] So you know, we I, I'm not sure I know what the actual cost of these things are.

[2:20:34] They just get pulled into a budget, but they never really separate it out. So

[2:20:40] I agree with you, Jason.

[2:20:41] I'm you know, I. Trust.

[2:20:43] That the staff. Has. Done the hard work.

[2:20:45] I just want to see the math that they put into it as well,

[2:20:49] just so that we can feel assured that when we make this decision,

[2:20:53] if we do accept their proposed fees, that we feel confident

[2:20:58] that we've made the right decision based on the work that they have for them.

[2:21:03] Yeah. Definitely do the homework.

[2:21:05] It's nothing. Against the tenant.

[2:21:07] I just want to be able to have it in the record that that we make it available.

[2:21:11] So I think David instead. It.

[2:21:13] Will have it for the minutes and. And.

[2:21:18] I would say the

[2:21:21] to see the cost of the things that are specified here.

[2:21:24] The union leader cost,

[2:21:28] the postage.

[2:21:29] To certify. The certification costs.

[2:21:32] I mean, I, I know that the post office has up their fees,

[2:21:35] but I don't know to what extent.

[2:21:37] I know there's something significant here.

[2:21:40] Be a question to explore how many people really like

[2:21:45] getting a envelope

[2:21:49] going on.

[2:21:50] Is it is it possible that we could do, like many organizations have done

[2:21:56] and just go to electronic notification?

[2:22:00] Or is it some, or is it a legal requirement

[2:22:03] that the board get it in hard copy?

[2:22:06] I don't know the answer to that.

[2:22:08] I mean, I get all of the PDF electronically.

[2:22:11] I mailed copy.

[2:22:12] Because as I think all of us do, but I mean, do we really need the hard copy?

[2:22:17] Besides.

[2:22:20] I mean, I look at this table, it's almost like a building permit thing.

[2:22:23] It's got residential, a one house unit of duplex

[2:22:27] residential, be 2 or 3 houses, units or duplexes.

[2:22:30] We don't have applications like that, do we?

[2:22:34] Well.

[2:22:34] When the commercial industrial three or residential, other.

[2:22:39] Than they put in their applications, they have to check off

[2:22:43] what what it falls under.

[2:22:45] To send the notifications.

[2:22:46] They would have to send it to each family in the multifamily.

[2:22:49] So then everybody gets notified and that I'm guessing.

[2:22:53] But it would be nice to see.

[2:22:54] But I'm guessing that that's why it's more for each one

[2:22:57] as well as if you need to notify

[2:23:01] in a condo complex everyone in the condo for something I don't know, even work.

[2:23:06] That way.

[2:23:07] Do you want to send it to the manager of the.

[2:23:09] Condo complex?

[2:23:12] It's up to them to give it to the 13 or 18, 20, whatever hundred.

[2:23:17] I would assume part. Of.

[2:23:18] These fees is not only, but specifically when we're looking at the residential

[2:23:23] A, residential B commercial C categories, I would assume part of

[2:23:26] it is also factoring in the cost of staff time with these applications.

[2:23:30] A residential a one house

[2:23:32] unit or duplex is going to be a lot simpler than looking at if,

[2:23:37] you know, since they've been so much in the news around the country,

[2:23:40] a data center is trying to come in

[2:23:41] and has this huge thing that they're trying to take away.

[2:23:45] Some part of the agricultural district that's going to take a lot more staff

[2:23:50] time to review a much more extensive application

[2:23:55] that's going to fall under that, that third category

[2:23:59] that's going to have a higher cost because it's going to require more time.

[2:24:04] I can think of things if you've got

[2:24:06] 30 or 40 of butters versus a handful

[2:24:10] for a residential project, just the amount of time to develop,

[2:24:15] develop a mailing list of a Butters certification.

[2:24:19] My guess would be that that average is out.

[2:24:21] You know, for the ones that have won a butter versus those that have 300. But

[2:24:27] I don't know

[2:24:29] that that

[2:24:31] I don't think we need to have documentation

[2:24:34] to like the minute of staff time.

[2:24:37] Like I said, I'd just like to know what the union leader classified

[2:24:40] ad costs like, how did they go up so that we can turn around and say, well,

[2:24:44] somebody says, did the board do a good job of allowing these fees?

[2:24:48] We can say yes to.

[2:24:50] All right.

[2:24:50] Can I make can I make a motion on

[2:24:54] I move that we table action

[2:24:57] on these fees to the next regular meeting,

[2:25:01] and that we request staff to provide

[2:25:05] justification for the numbers, back up

[2:25:09] materials for this for the next meeting.

[2:25:13] I would. Say that.

[2:25:14] You're about an alternate

[2:25:17] I think I said. You yeah.

[2:25:19] So, all right, so we have a motion from Len, second from me.

[2:25:24] All in favor? Aye.

[2:25:26] Opposed? Motion carries. So.

[2:25:32] So that is

[2:25:35] agenda.

[2:25:36] So do we have a motion to adjourn?

[2:25:39] So move.

[2:25:40] Move from Bruce.

[2:25:41] Second from John.

[2:25:44] Charlie, you're the voting alternate. All in favor?

[2:25:47] All right.

[2:25:48] Closed. Motion carries.

[2:25:50] Have a good evening, everyone.

Zoning Board of Adjustment - September 1, 2026

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