[0:00] Thank you, everybody. In accordance with the exception 3D of

[0:04] chapter 231 of the public laws of 1975 otherwise known as the Sunshine Law.

[0:09] Roll call. >> Paul Meyer

[0:12] Jose Abreu >> Here.

[0:14] » Jeff Paletti Ken Schlae

[0:16] » Here. >> Jose Medeiros

[0:18] » Here. >> Phil Bellan

[0:19] » Here. >> Grace Anne

[0:21] » Here. >> Fred Nelson

[0:23] » Here. >> Ryan MacIntyre

[0:24] » Here. >> Alexa Carnahan

[0:27] » Here. >> Stephen Lorenzo

[0:28] » Here. >> Daniel McDonald

[0:30] » Here. >> Brad Plowman

[0:33] » I'm Dexter. >> Here.

[0:35] » Stewart >> Please rise for the pledge.

[0:42] » I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the

[0:46] republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and

[0:52] justice for all.

[1:01] » Will there be a roll call of the public? >> So moved.

[1:04] » Second. >> All those in favor?

[1:07] » Aye. >> Any comments?

[1:09] » Yeah. Yeah, uh I think David Sanders is on the

[1:13] Okay, did you guys get the letter from the Environmental Commission?

[1:18] Uh we wrote a letter to the mayor. >> I was in the Traffic Committee, no. We

[1:22] don't have that. >> You don't have that. So, it um I can

[1:25] send it to you. If at the Traffic Committee, he didn't have it out because

[1:29] he said it was only in We're only advisory, which is true. But, I I don't

[1:34] mind sending it to you. And also, we had attached a model ordinance from

[1:38] Commissioner Kern, I think, Warren County. So, I can send that all

[1:42] email it to Monica, but I was wondering if you would like me to uh read it

[1:46] during your your comment at that time when you get get to that agenda item.

[1:52] Okay. >> Yeah.

[1:52] » Very good. >> We're good to have

[1:58] Yeah, you might as well do it now so we don't have to

[2:00] stand here. I didn't have a chance to make copies or

[2:03] email and search. Hello mayor mayor, as members of the

[2:08] environmental commission we have been concerned about the rapidly growing

[2:11] development of data centers across the state and the country. We have examined

[2:16] the pros and cons of the development of data centers in Bethlehem Township and

[2:20] have come to the conclusion that the negatives far outweigh any positives. We

[2:24] urge the Township committee to enact an immediate ban or long-term moratorium on

[2:29] the allowance of data centers within our municipality. While often framed as

[2:33] clean tech investments, evidence from across the country reveals that data

[2:37] centers operate as resource intensive intensive industrial buildings that

[2:42] offer negligible permanent employee employment while placing an

[2:46] unsustainable strain on environment, community, and infrastructure. We

[2:50] request that you consider the following evidence-based arguments for a ban.

[2:54] Number one, unsustainable resource consumption.

[2:58] Even small data centers consume hundreds of thousands of gallons of water daily.

[3:03] This is particularly concerning for our Township whose residents rely 100% on

[3:08] ground water from aquifers and frequently face

[3:12] Number two, strain on the energy grid and increased energy costs. These

[3:17] facilities use excessive amounts of electrical energy. This results in

[3:21] residential electric electricity rate hikes due to a higher demand and cost of

[3:26] infrastructure improvements to accommodate the increased load. Number

[3:30] three, job minimal job creation. Unlike traditional industrial sectors, data

[3:35] centers are non-labor intensive. While construction creates temporary roles, a

[3:40] finished facility will provide very few jobs, many of which are low-wage

[3:45] security or maintenance. Number four, health and quality of life impacts.

[3:50] Residents living near existing data centers report constant low-frequency

[3:54] noise pollution from cooling fans and air quality issues from industrial size

[3:59] diesel backup generators. These generators emit nitrogen oxides

[4:04] and particulate matter linked to respiratory and heart disease.

[4:09] Number five, environmental impact. The heated wastewater leaving the facility

[4:13] would create new pathways and increase the surface water temperature to the

[4:17] wetlands and and repairing zones, which would have a

[4:20] drastic effect on wetland and stream ecology. This would impact the water

[4:24] that recharges aquifers that supply residential drinking water, as well as

[4:29] Spruce Run Reservoir and the Musconetcong River. Number six, heat

[4:33] islands. Increased ambient temperatures are being experienced for miles

[4:38] surrounding by data centers. The increased localized heat burden is a

[4:42] nuisance for neighbors with increased cooling costs. The potential respiratory

[4:47] health effects on people and potential environmental

[4:51] impacts of the disrupted ecosystems due to these microclimates are still

[4:55] unknown. Number seven, pollution impact. If a

[4:59] closed-loop cooling system is utilized, the water used to cool the facility

[5:03] usually contains PFAS coolants compounds, which when they leak or need

[5:08] to be drained, will end up in the aquifer and further contaminate the

[5:12] drinking water for residents. Number eight, public impact. These

[5:16] facilities are giant windowless structures that offer no public

[5:19] amenities, diminish property values to the surrounding areas, and would ruin

[5:23] the quiet character of our community. Bethlehem Township should prioritize the

[5:28] long-term stewardship of our water, power, and land for the benefit of

[5:33] residents, rather than subsidizing the expansion of tech corporations and

[5:37] chasing ratables. We urge the Township Committee to follow the lead of other

[5:42] forward-thinking communities and protect our future by banning this industrial

[5:46] use. Warren County Commissioner Curran has drafted a model ordinance attached.

[5:52] Municipalities across Warren County, across New Jersey, and across the

[5:55] country have recognized that these types of developments are not good neighbors

[5:59] and have passed ordinance this year banning data centers in their community

[6:04] due to all the factors listed above. We strongly encourage the Bethlehem

[6:08] Township Committee to adopt an ordinance to codify a ban on data centers in our

[6:13] municipality. Thank you for letting me leave.

[6:16] » Can I Can I Can I ask you a question? >> Yeah.

[6:18] » Did you Did the

[6:19] um Did the

[6:22] environmental commission identify anywhere where these could be built in

[6:26] Bethlehem? >> So, we didn't specifically look at it

[6:30] from that point of view, but we were thinking not just mega data centers, but

[6:36] small ones as well. Like, I know Mayor Mirror had mentioned the cornfield right

[6:41] on 173. Came to the environmental commission as a matter of fact. I

[6:46] mentioned that specific property. I don't know if it can be built there or

[6:49] not. I don't We didn't address that. We were just kind of in general trying to

[6:55] encourage the township to be ahead of it rather than be proactive because

[7:00] sometimes are being sued right now. I think Andover and another one because

[7:05] they waited and then the developer comes in. So, no, we did not look at specific

[7:10] properties or is it feasible or not. We just were trying to

[7:15] Just like warehouses, you know, have to be proactive.

[7:18] » Yeah, I mean, no warehouses is actually able to be built in Bethlehem.

[7:23] » Well, because we put that in our master plan.

[7:25] » No, not in the master plan. Yes, we did. >> Because the Highlands

[7:28] » We did put it in the master plan. >> We did, guys.

[7:31] » That's all I'm saying. >> But

[7:33] Yeah. >> And that And there is a planning area,

[7:35] too. >> Yep, we know that.

[7:36] » The planning area. Highlands planning area, which has overlay on that.

[7:40] » Yeah, but that that isn't That wouldn't be contiguous.

[7:44] » and that is not a question. >> Similar to the warehouses, we were just

[7:47] trying to have the township be proactive rather than reactive.

[7:52] » Okay, thank you. Thank you.

[7:56] » I agree with your sentiments that the idea, I just wonder whether or not

[8:00] it's just, you know, an ordinance looking for something to ban because I

[8:04] just don't think that it can happen in our town, but you

[8:08] » Until it happens. >> Well,

[8:09] » It never got approved in the past. >> I Yeah.

[8:13] » is the impervious coverage of that is old building and old pavement.

[8:16] » Yeah. >> So, you would never get the impervious

[8:18] coverage in Highlands to to approve it. >> And anywhere in the in the Highlands in

[8:23] the preservation area, there's no way you can do that.

[8:26] » The only advantage is you probably need less parking lot

[8:31] for the warehouse. >> Yeah, I'm home.

[8:33] » But I think it's just like when we talk about warehouses, putting all of our

[8:36] eggs in basket of God is will save us is probably not wise. Cuz you just don't

[8:41] know. Everything >> guaranteed that it's going to it can

[8:43] change. The administration can change. >> I'd rather I'd rather be the driver of

[8:48] our own ship. >> Except the Highlands has saved this

[8:51] through probably the the most adverse

[8:55] administrations through the Highlands and

[8:58] nobody was ever able to get around the Highlands. Just as nobody's been able to

[9:02] ever get around the Pinelands. And the Pinelands is where

[9:07] um you know, it's it's really the what the

[9:09] model for the Highlands and the restrictions in the Pinelands you know,

[9:13] are incredible. You know, and they they and they have

[9:16] been around for 50 years, not just, you know, since 2004.

[9:21] » They have plenty. >> Yeah, it's open there.

[9:23] » It's still open. >> Yeah.

[9:25] » So, so first of all, there are some going into Pinelands. Woodland has one.

[9:30] Second of all, in the Highlands, there's a redevelopment and the re

[9:36] If so, it has to be 70% impervious coverage or the Highlands can determine

[9:41] this parcel is is can be developed. So, there are

[9:46] even today loopholes that can skirt around being in the preservation area.

[9:52] » And Brian, well put too because never say never. All How many times have

[9:58] we seen things become inherently beneficial? May not be a huge one, but

[10:04] inherently beneficial. How many of us use our cell phone? How many times do we

[10:08] need data centers to be honest, right?

[10:13] Otherwise, things will stop. Everything's growing. And never say

[10:17] never. All of a sudden, something that wasn't all of a sudden is inherently

[10:20] beneficial and can maybe be smaller,

[10:25] be allowed. Just saying.

[10:30] » Well, we did this building in China.

[10:35] » I mean, there there there is also discussion about having

[10:39] um smaller servers within homes.

[10:43] That's something else that's that's that's coming down like. So, I mean,

[10:48] they'll Yeah, they'll offer a certain amount of

[10:50] money a month for you to host a couple servers.

[10:53] So, that I mean, the power usage is still going to be used. It's just going

[10:57] to be dispersed out like So, yeah.

[11:01] Yeah, it's I don't know if that's something that we

[11:03] want to look at with the possibility of of that coming down. It's not a full

[11:08] Yeah, full size data center, but you know, if everybody has five or six

[11:12] servers in each one of our houses, you know, thousands.

[11:17] » But, there are certain things that, you know, very valid about public services.

[11:21] Our water supply. What if we got a water And there's been

[11:26] uh uh incidents of potential pollution of

[11:30] water. And it goes right back into you know, and and that's exactly what

[11:36] the Highlands was designed to address. And that's why

[11:40] that's why the high and the the Highlands was such a strong

[11:45] uh uh law because they they had a lot of

[11:49] proof behind it that, you know, we are the water source for the the majority of

[11:55] New Jersey. And so, you have to protect that water source. And so, I mean, you

[12:01] know, a lot of you here don't remember what it

[12:04] was like before the Highlands went through. We were constantly being

[12:09] bombarded with development every single meeting.

[12:13] You know, development after development after development was looking to come

[12:17] into this town. And the day the Highlands went through, that all

[12:21] stopped. So, I mean, you know,

[12:24] I appreciate that the Highlands was passed because it it not only did it

[12:30] stop a lot of overdevelopment in this area, but it also, you know,

[12:36] it is it is the legal protection that we really

[12:40] fight a lot of things under today. And I think that that's something that that we

[12:45] need to keep in mind. And you know, I I have no

[12:52] If if a if if any uh data center wanted to come within 10

[12:58] miles of me, I think I would probably not be happy about it.

[13:01] But at the same time, I think that in Bethlehem Township, we have the

[13:05] protection that we need. Um and I'm not one for really writing laws

[13:11] for something that, you know, that isn't a possibility. If I saw a possibility of

[13:15] this, I would certainly want to do something about it.

[13:20] » Thank you. >> I would just like that I I think the way

[13:23] Ryan said it is best, and that is I'd rather to the driver of your own bus. I

[13:26] think you're your own bus. Again, what hap- Again, I

[13:30] I know what ifs, but let's say it gets, you know, they wipe I

[13:35] mean, is it unlikely? Sure. What if they get

[13:38] rid of the Highlands? Whatever. And then we have no protection. And then, you

[13:43] know, I don't know I'd rather have Personally, I'd rather be the driver of

[13:46] our own bus. That's just my opinion. >> If they got rid of the Highlands, we

[13:49] would have plenty of notice. >> Yeah.

[13:51] » And then we could pass all sorts of things to make sure that And then, you

[13:57] know, we would certainly be much more justified in defending the money that

[14:01] these sorts of You know, cuz this this law

[14:05] in this form of business is not going to be free. It's something that we have to

[14:08] pay for. And I just don't see what it is that we're stopping

[14:13] at this point. You know, we we've got to be careful.

[14:17] » Is there any way we could assess where one could be built built or I mean,

[14:22] could they get >> I know the environmental issues didn't

[14:25] look at it in that detail. We're just trying to be proactive from a general

[14:29] point of view. Similar to the warehouses. And never say never

[14:33] something can be built. Look at the industrial zone on 173 that gets fire

[14:38] consumption, which is now industrial zone.

[14:41] » The passive thing that is in the in recent

[14:44] in the what? >> Most pre-existing.

[14:46] » Yeah. >> I I agree with you both say that

[14:49] Highlands were one of the best things that ever happened, especially for our

[14:53] area. However, we're not just talking now 10,

[14:57] 20, 30 years out. We're talking about what could happen in the future. Well, I

[15:02] can communities and states are making where

[15:06] these, no matter what size the data center is, it has to be self-sufficient.

[15:10] Now, oh, I mean, I'm not an engineer by no means. But who's to say if someone

[15:17] comes before and says, "Now, new technology, I tap into this one's water

[15:23] supply down in Clinton. They allow me to. I can come up here or over here or

[15:28] somebody, you know, down over in Warren County. Yeah, we can do the water

[15:33] supply. They'll We'll go in. And again, getting

[15:37] back to that inherently beneficial, it's permitted. You I I do not know. I

[15:43] don't have a crystal ball either. Although sometimes I'm called a witch,

[15:47] but I'm not. Maybe I

[15:52] » What about the future? Not just talking about ourselves.

[15:56] Talking about like we talk about perpetuity and things like that.

[16:00] Can you head off something perhaps? Can you put a price on that?

[16:06] » You know, I I sort of agree. What do we wait until they come here and

[16:10] ask? What You know, somebody developer comes

[16:14] in and builds a data center. We don't have where

[16:18] I'm just saying. >> It It has to be something that could be

[16:23] going into that area. We are entirely in the preservation area

[16:28] and our in our development area is also under the preservation rules except for

[16:33] the overlay. And the overlay was done only

[16:38] for a specific purpose and it cannot be industrial.

[16:42] I mean it it's again, we're we're writing a law for something that can't

[16:47] happen in our town. If it ever gets to the point where they can happen in our

[16:51] town, then we have time to to put this law into effect.

[16:56] » Uh so I don't want to short-circuit the conversation. So I'm going to listen to

[16:59] both of you. Sharon, we we held this discussion Thursday night at our

[17:03] committee meeting. We had quite a few people come out. Uh a lot of block

[17:06] counters, but I I'll admit I didn't look at our agenda

[17:09] for tonight, otherwise I would have reached out and asked. Uh I got to just

[17:12] give it to the mayor Mayor O'Rourke. We're going to be taking action on both

[17:15] items. Uh

[17:17] regarding data centers, yes, it's almost impossible to put a data center in

[17:22] Bethlehem Township where there is only office and storage already are.

[17:25] But, we want to make sure. And the public safety members

[17:28] very much in the favor of doing that. Uh, and yes, you would take on the cost

[17:33] of that, but we have tablets that we can use. So, our

[17:36] attorney's already working on an ordinance. We're going to introduce it

[17:38] at the township committee level. It will come here to the master plan and

[17:41] conformance. And we would like to have that passed before the end of the year.

[17:46] That, just while we're on it, uh,

[17:50] the real rules are coming back as well. So, we need to update some of the uh,

[17:54] storm water ordinances. So, those are the two things that need to get done

[17:57] before the come from the committee first, and then

[18:02] come here for master plan and conformance and any other comments which

[18:05] would go back to the committee that need to be done before the end of the year.

[18:09] » Sounds like a good plan. So, uh, just going back to your point though, what if

[18:14] someone came in and bought uh, Summit

[18:18] or >> Summit Supply.

[18:21] » Bought the old warehouse on the other side of the train tracks from him,

[18:24] bought out Charlie, bought out Fox people, bought Fuel Ox,

[18:29] and built those four existing buildings. I

[18:31] mean, that's a lot of square footage, right? And put them and connected them

[18:36] all to the same network. They're not far apart. That's going to generate a lot of

[18:40] noise and use a lot of water in existing commercial buildings.

[18:43] » There's a They They converted that from from what they are now.

[18:47] » Correct. To what they are now. >> Do we have anything to stop that from

[18:50] happening? >> I don't know that it would be

[18:53] I I guess that that would be Yeah, that would be a change in use.

[18:57] » But, they're all commercial properties, aren't they?

[19:00] » But, that doesn't mean the use is the is allowed

[19:02] » We got a commercial as a defined use. And that That center is not one of them.

[19:07] So, theoretically, I'm not the land use law by not permitting that to be

[19:11] disallowed automatically. So, So, I my caveat is it's not allowed.

[19:16] The comment that we made at the last community meeting is everybody's we

[19:19] share here on it and every property owner has the right to do at least try

[19:23] to do what they think they should do with their property, which is why the

[19:26] variance process exists. So somebody could purchase that, nobody could take

[19:30] away their right to come here for a variance for that is on earth if they

[19:34] would so choose. So that's why the ordinance

[19:37] » Just How do we define data center? >> That's the key to the

[19:41] That's the key to the ordinance. So Actually, I'll give Ken credit cuz he's

[19:45] throwing a wrench to our to our plans because

[19:48] a lot of what we're deciding about the size because theoretically, let's say

[19:51] you're a financial advisor and you have a heavy duty you have a server in your

[19:55] home to work with a client, that's a small data center.

[19:59] And so that's what was brought up as how do we define We have This is going to be

[20:04] geared towards things that are not in homes right now and we may need to uh

[20:09] look at that in the future because we didn't think about kind of these you

[20:12] know, maybe there's a way to do small connectivity data centers, but we also

[20:16] don't want to preclude somebody who has a you know, professional or some other

[20:20] business that needs a small server in their home. Like our our building here

[20:24] would be considered a data center based on the size of the server that's that's

[20:27] managing your household. So how how do that

[20:31] and run something through our own ordinances

[20:34] by the next

[20:37] » This is a good point. >> Can a school be considered a small

[20:43] » It'd be the same. I'm sure their servers probably match what ours is.

[20:46] » I think I think that any government entity

[20:50] » But I >> But how do you get to the point where

[20:52] you're going to police what people can put in their homes?

[20:54] » And you know what it comes down to you mean

[20:56] » You want me to go on? >> You see what

[20:59] going right back to the heating, the cooling, the amount of

[21:03] energy use, you know, all of the sudden, you know, you you go

[21:06] from a 200-amp service and now you need to have 600-amp service part of your

[21:10] house. Yeah, you can do that without a battery

[21:13] at the at the at the home. So, I don't know if anyone comes to us. Yeah, yeah.

[21:18] That that would never even come >> Do you know your home or your basement?

[21:20] Can I say that you know let's maybe say something you know, you can't hear it so

[21:24] you're silent. We don't know what's there. We're not out policing.

[21:27] Um we hope that people do comply and and if you if for some reason you aren't

[21:30] complying with the day we ask for compliance, but the technology is going

[21:33] to change. I mean, even now Xfinity you know, you don't realize you look at

[21:37] your cable contract. Your your boxes that's why you don't have your own

[21:41] router in your own house anymore. Um their Xfinity phone system somebody

[21:45] pulls into your street you're an Xfinity customer part of your data is actually

[21:49] dedicated to the smart event system. Uh it's one of their their nodes. You you

[21:54] sign the trip right on the contract. Uh Denver that's the probably country is

[21:58] like in Tokyo barely has any cell tower or 5G service. They're so that's the

[22:04] problem with the phones themselves. Create a mesh network. Everybody's

[22:07] carrying their own network within within these densely populated areas. So, right

[22:11] now it's the Wi-Fi but eventually cell service may do the same. And then I got

[22:14] my own little problem. >> You got a Comcast or any other year?

[22:19] » I don't know. >> It's Comcast.

[22:20] » I don't know. I don't know what I have with this stupid thing that's built in.

[22:24] » I think you have the choice to put your own in your own

[22:28] » I guess I'm trying to say you know >> I read the contract completely.

[22:31] » I have one one >> He's not a sucker for saying they use

[22:35] the sewer. >> How do we know that they're in the

[22:37] sewer? Has anybody seen them in the accounts?

[22:40] » You know, a lot of times it's a lot of propaganda.

[22:42] » Well, they do. I mean, you can do open loop systems or closed loop systems.

[22:46] » And she did get back. You can absolutely have a completely closed loop system

[22:51] that's not using >> But then just put it in your own back

[22:53] deep into the air, right? Yeah, which is I mean I mean

[22:59] the the data centers themselves I don't really I'm not a fan.

[23:05] Pretty cool. But, you know, the the thing that I worry about more

[23:09] is, you know, you're right, technology is changing. So,

[23:14] how we write that ordinance, how does that project into the future saying, you

[23:19] know, what could be developed into the future

[23:22] that all of a sudden gets all around our ordinances

[23:25] and does the whole the same. It could amount to smalls.

[23:30] » Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, >> I mean, a giant I mean,

[23:33] » 50-acre >> one discussion is already past anywhere.

[23:36] Just, you know, you put four servers in your house and you're going to get a

[23:39] thousand dollars a month of acre in that.

[23:42] You know, you start throwing around to every single person, you know, you're

[23:45] not doing you're not you're not controlling it. You're controlling this

[23:48] stuff remotely. But, if you're going to get a thousand

[23:51] thousand thousand thousand, all of a sudden everybody in town's going to be

[23:54] putting servers in. I mean,

[23:56] » And it's the same thing that happened with the cell towers themselves.

[23:59] » Yeah. >> The apartments in the cities.

[24:02] They're holding the space that they even if they don't use it, the space that and

[24:06] money that makes for those land owners on those apartment buildings.

[24:13] » That that's that's a really good example because 4G needed towers.

[24:19] 5G has nodes that are on telephone poles all over the place and we can't stop

[24:24] them. You know, so our ordinance that that

[24:28] somehow, which wasn't possible to control because of

[24:32] because all of us had our cell phone with us right now.

[24:35] Um and we also all have computers. So, that

[24:38] way it's like, you know, all these things that we don't want is all well

[24:43] and good, but, you know, unless we're willing to give up our

[24:47] computers, we're going to have these things. And

[24:51] I'm all for putting them in China.

[24:54] » All right. I think they could go out them the desert in Arizona or Texas or

[24:59] you know where they're like You don't put them in a

[25:03] community. You know, you don't put them in that area.

[25:05] » Yeah. >> They'll be doing the marketing so what I

[25:07] can do >> What is that called?

[25:10] » Raw watts. >> Um that's supposedly for a data center.

[25:15] » Um >> There's a lot of

[25:16] people that live right there and I don't think that's a smart place to do it.

[25:20] Does New Jersey need a data center at all? I don't know.

[25:24] » Oh, yeah. >> The proximity of the data center is

[25:27] important, right? It's it's Microsoft or whoever big companies building them.

[25:32] It doesn't matter really where it is as long as it's connected to

[25:37] » means that they have wires going to And so a lot of this is regional. Since it's

[25:40] why we have power plants regionalized. >> But data centers are so much

[25:45] Data can travel a long distance real fast. As long as you can

[25:48] » It's three hours it's three hours from now that somebody on a plane would be

[25:51] getting in Arizona saying we need to protect our open space.

[26:00] » But but I I justify

[26:05] or not justified there and not justified here, right? If if the desert

[26:09] desert needs to be protected and certain desert towns shouldn't touch

[26:15] that word. >> I think most of them they're going to

[26:18] want to build them close >> The stuff is not always available.

[26:22] » Well, that >> and the power plant.

[26:24] » I was going to say the real factor is the

[26:26] business the power so they need they actually

[26:28] need their own both substations. So it's depending on whatever the power company

[26:32] is willing to to put with the power and the water is kind of secondary because

[26:35] they're both in the system that they really need. So

[26:40] » No. Yeah. >> I think you got to bring up with the

[26:43] chance to meet Thursday night. >> So so at least we maybe we start that.

[26:48] That's the benefit not having reliable of

[26:51] » Don't bring your data center here or we'll be out of power.

[26:54] » A lot of them have packages of self-provisioning

[26:56] stations. >> Uh

[26:57] you know, I haven't seen the data with uh our our attorney and engineer both

[27:01] work with municipalities and have banned uh data centers over you know, here in

[27:06] Hunterdon and other places. They used to have I think it was only

[27:09] one I think it was like only 25, maybe it's 30 at this point.

[27:13] » I think it's 26 at Bandom and then um there's like

[27:17] many more that are in >> Yeah, I think there's only like four in

[27:20] Hunterdon right now. So, I think it's I think it's the uh I think it's smart at

[27:25] least to have something passed through it before the end of the

[27:29] year to get it started. Uh and maybe uh our our chairman is very

[27:34] proficient in reviewing ordinances. I know you've done that before, so maybe

[27:36] we put on some declarations to look like every every 18

[27:41] months to review this or every year or something or other like that.

[27:44] » Yeah, I don't know how how much it changed, so we can always adjust it.

[27:50] » Yeah, the thought I had is maybe for future discussion. I may have been

[27:54] overthinking this, but is one of the you know, question I asked

[27:58] is how do you define a data center, right? And

[28:01] how do you define a warehouse? How do you define a warehouse versus lightning

[28:05] manufacturing like over in Branchburg, you know, where they're having that

[28:08] debate? And instead of defining a business and

[28:12] then saying we don't want that,

[28:16] we're better off writing ordinances against

[28:20] the characteristics of businesses that we don't want.

[28:23] Massive power consumption, massive electric usage, huge number of tractor

[28:27] trailer parking spots or parking spaces. And don't

[28:31] » Well, there is what you call >> But then you have to define huge.

[28:34] » Well, I'll I'll give you a number. I don't know what the I don't know off

[28:38] the top of my head how much a data center

[28:40] » water it uses to me. >> I don't know if you know what a Yeah,

[28:42] that's what a four family four person residential house uses for water, but we

[28:47] can easily come up with numbers and say if your business you know if you go to a

[28:51] restaurant I used to own one and I tried to look at their water bill and see what

[28:55] we went through in the restaurant and brewed our own beer. Whatever we could

[28:58] come up with numbers and say you know, if you're in business or a new business

[29:03] coming in, we're going to put a water meter on it and this is what water

[29:06] consumption is limited to. Like you can't go over this or something along I

[29:09] don't know. I'm not saying I have the right answer. The point is what what are

[29:13] we concerned about? We're concerned about water usage, concerned about

[29:17] electric usage, we're concerned about, you know, drainage and stuff like that.

[29:21] So if we address the problems without putting a

[29:24] label on it, is that a better way to go? That's just kind of a

[29:27] » That was the sole discussion. So there's an idea there is a

[29:31] our attorney and engineer who said we had two paths in the ordinance just to

[29:35] to ban as centers. I think it's like all you ban data set data centers and then

[29:39] put some definitions under it or conditional ordinance which then defines

[29:44] the conditions you're trying to avoid. Yeah, for that. And so I think you know

[29:49] there's an idea like yeah, we would ban data centers and and and that's nice and

[29:53] clear and it's easy. I think the conditional ordinance may be a little

[29:56] more complicated but may serve our purposes better. And so uh you know, I'm

[30:02] hoping to have something our next meeting is September 3rd. First of all I

[30:06] got to try I I think maybe I've been to second September meeting before we

[30:09] introduce this or at least have the first discussion and then introduce it

[30:13] in our first meeting in October to make sure we have the time to

[30:16] » It's like the statement is simple. >> Yeah, so so so there will be some some

[30:20] review and things in this. And then of course comes here. So there will be a

[30:24] lot of thoughts here as well. I remember the fence ordinance I thought it would

[30:28] be nice and smooth and that and you guys figured out two hours worth of

[30:32] discussion and that and you appreciate I really do appreciate that. Yeah, I must

[30:36] say I appreciate it. >> I agree with

[30:38] » I'm not saying that I agree with you here but I'm just saying in the

[30:41] future for any other situation in itself. Be aware of what an error is to

[30:45] be made. >> It's not the fine substance, don't

[30:47] define it. Attack the issue. >> I agree, sir. Go back.

[30:51] » I I believe that that the way

[30:55] our board is supposed to work is exactly that, that we have, you know, we just

[30:59] define it. A lot of those things in our master plan, which is why we always ask

[31:04] whether or not, you know, our

[31:07] ordinances conform to our master plan. And so, you know, all those things, you

[31:13] know, everything that that that the that the that was

[31:18] stipulated about what we don't like about data centers,

[31:23] I agree with. And, you know, and and it's part of

[31:27] the basis for why we we could ban data centers. And, you know, but those

[31:33] things should actually also be in our master

[31:37] plan to give heat to the to any ban that we had. Cuz any ban that we put

[31:43] together, we could say we don't like data centers, which is not a way that

[31:47] you're supposed to do zoning.

[31:50] Zoning is supposed to be done because there are reasons that you've already

[31:54] articulated in the master plan that say why it is that this use should not be

[32:00] allowed. And as long as we have those those

[32:05] excuses or those those reasons already in our master plan, then we're much

[32:10] safer. We could say that we don't want data centers because of all the reasons

[32:15] that they articulated. And and that gives us the defense that we need in

[32:21] court, so that when we do get sued, we can win.

[32:25] » That might actually be really the the best reason to support more of a

[32:29] conditional ordinance than something more specific to data centers. Because

[32:32] if you think about a master plan, you talk about protecting resources and the

[32:36] natural environment and all that other stuff which would really pull very

[32:39] neatly into that kind of information. >> Right.

[32:43] » And it is going to change like we were talking about earlier what the data

[32:46] center is going to be like 5 years from now.

[32:48] What is the building going to be like in the next 15 years? They're watching and

[32:52] they're going to be probably obsolete. >> Well, they can be turned turned into a

[32:56] warehouse. >> A year ago we were talking about all

[32:59] this stuff and who knows what we're going to be talking about a year from

[33:01] now. Who knows what we're going to be talking about a year from now.

[33:11] » Everyone

[33:14] » This is this is the end result. Exactly. That's exactly right. Just like buying

[33:18] things from Amazon, we're dealing with warehouses.

[33:21] So, that's that is a problem. We're all using these components.

[33:25] And they have to go somewhere, but we don't want them. But yet, we're still

[33:29] willing to to buy products from battery companies.

[33:33] And we still want to be able to have our phone in the same

[33:36] Yes, chat GPT with the answers. >> I mean, I always thought

[33:40] I always thought that the chat GPT was such nonsense. Who needs this stuff, you

[33:44] know? And then my wife started using it to help design our new house. And it's

[33:50] like you know, it's amazing. You tell it you want this, that, the other thing and

[33:54] it just draws out something that an architect would have charged you

[33:59] thousands of dollars to do. And all of a sudden it's there. And if you don't like

[34:03] it, just change what you don't like. You just tell it.

[34:06] And that's the thing, you know, it it is >> amazing.

[34:09] » We use it all the time on the farm to calculate fertilizer and stuff.

[34:14] » Yeah. >> It's so it's so much fun.

[34:27] » All right, any emotional close to the ball?

[34:28] » So moved. >> Seconded.

[34:30] All in favor. >> I think we already had our discussion.

[34:36] » I was all the same.

[34:42] » So, um the committee's going to write something

[34:46] up and then we'll just have to be a minute

[34:48] uh not in consistent >> Yeah, it'll come in front of us.

[34:52] » Okay. >> Our discussion points.

[34:56] We're back. Actually, they can they can take some

[35:02] » There's another >> All right.

[35:09] » All right, let's do minutes. July 27th, 2016.

[36:13] I'll make a motion to approve the minutes for July 27th, 2016.

[36:18] » Second.

[36:21] » Further discussion? All those in favor?

[36:24] » Aye. >> Yes.

[36:27] Seconds? Abstain?

[36:38] We are working

[36:41] That didn't go in there. No comments?

[36:46] » I just have a question.

[36:51] Is

[36:55] » I'll be able to pick it up, so the echoes are better than that.

[36:58] » Is an amendment to the master plan more effective than writing an ordinance?

[37:05] minutes >> That is fine. That's just a suggestion,

[37:08] but how can I ignore the master plan?

[37:13] » So, the ordinance then, if the vision for the future doesn't match whatever is

[37:19] on the board, can be amended? >> Correct.

[37:22] » Okay. Thank you.

[37:25] » 20 That was the word the justification you

[37:28] were

[37:32] We had a discussion with

[37:48] Any other comments? Anyone ready to close?

[37:51] » So moved. >> Second.

[37:52] » All in favor. Yes.

[37:56] » Yes. >> The only thing else

[38:01] So, thank you for that. Here, it's good to hear the planning board members share

[38:05] their thoughts. The public was straight by our commission. Thank you for putting

[38:09] together the initial letter. Good turnout of the public that shared

[38:13] as well. And on Zoom. The other thing that we

[38:16] brought up were block changes. Again, and then do we regulate those?

[38:22] That will be coming here for ordinance. What we're going to create is what I'm

[38:25] calling a resolution of responsibility. Well,

[38:30] a velocity cam. They're They're just like any other camera

[38:33] essentially except their technology is uh

[38:36] geared towards government use much more highly, much more detailed. So, it

[38:39] tracks license plates. Well, theoretically they track

[38:43] They do the facial recognition. Uh it tracks your cell phone.

[38:47] Bluetooth on, it'll know if you have added a bumper sticker throughout the

[38:50] years. So, you go through exit 12. Uh if for some reason they wanted to track

[38:54] you, it it locates your vehicle uh very accurately. Uh

[39:00] It's a show device. Yeah, so the challenge is uh is definitely fourth

[39:04] amendment issues around them as well as privacy and

[39:08] I kind of share I think a lot of people want to battle actually for for privacy

[39:13] and and and well, you know, the moral and private lifestyle. So, I did

[39:18] share back on past. We we don't have a law enforcement uh

[39:21] built in with the with the state police. There are no flight cameras in Bethlehem

[39:25] Township. There's two uh that actually 12 and one on corner 579 and 173 in

[39:32] Bloomsburg. Um but the least at least the one that actually one of those is

[39:36] actually 12 in neighboring Bloomsburg are are run by the

[39:39] under county rescue office. We even if we created an ordinance to

[39:43] say that we don't want these cameras here, we don't have jurisdiction. Uh and

[39:47] and so uh really what we're just asking for

[39:50] with this resolution of responsibility that we just sent to the county

[39:53] council's office and the legislator is just asking about responsible use of the

[39:56] cameras cuz that's what what's concerning. Um and also what's the

[40:00] actual status of of kind of all this monitoring We can't ban them. Can't ban

[40:05] them cuz we don't have any jurisdiction. Um so, that's what I wanted to They're

[40:09] all on private property. They are not on 173. They actually put them on Private

[40:13] private No, you say it also uh This this is private business allowed to

[40:18] have. We can't we can't tell a private business or a house that they can't have

[40:22] a camera and the state police wanted to be

[40:24] able to have access to your camera if you're you're you're using the camera.

[40:29] I'll say some some that can be useful. Some more densely populated

[40:33] municipalities that that are trying to monitor crime are actually when people

[40:37] come to the planning board part of their site plan is they they the requirement

[40:40] is you have to put two of these cameras up or whatever they are so the police

[40:43] have access to your parking lots and monitor what you're what you're doing.

[40:47] So, actually certain municipalities are very

[40:50] much in favor of them. They help with car theft. They they help

[40:54] with you know, I I would imagine home theft as well tracking vehicles. They

[40:59] help with uh the silver alerts, the older folks that

[41:03] that they get lost and track cars pretty easily. But it really is the the

[41:07] regulation who can use them, when you can use them, how long information is

[41:09] saved. I just want to like

[41:12] the the data storage came from the my non-commissioned block camera during the

[41:17] meeting. asking

[41:19] do we do we have these in West Bethel Township? Who put them up? Was it

[41:22] government? We I share we have cameras at the park. They're not in block

[41:25] cameras. We don't need that I do technology.

[41:28] They're they're very similar to what you have in your home if you have a

[41:34] We have cameras in the community center mostly because

[41:37] unfortunately we're facing more and more storms and we've been opening that I

[41:41] don't think I've ever seen that center open as much as it has been for uh

[41:45] for for shelters and sheltering purposes. And so we have three cameras

[41:49] in there just just monitor the space as it's used for shelter. The same thing

[41:52] they're not facial recognition. They're not they're just they record and right

[41:57] over the back of 30 days and it goes away. Our block will store data for

[42:00] three years and it's very detailed. So, um it's just

[42:04] those were the two potential ordinance issues and then

[42:08] there's again no ordinance on blocks. We're going to try to start some sort of

[42:11] movement on responsible use installation of that technology.

[42:16] Uh that's an original ordinance and then our engineer did share the the uh real

[42:20] rules were not held in this uh some additions

[42:25] to our normal order that we'll need to adopt by um which I find ridiculous. I

[42:29] love New Jersey. January 20th of 20 27.

[42:34] Um but you can't introduce an ordinance and cross over a year and you can't

[42:37] introduce an ordinance and pass it on January 20. So I'm not sure why they

[42:41] picked that date. So that's why I request we get this has to be approved

[42:44] before the end of the year. So those are

[42:48] major updates from the >> And even the Flock

[42:51] regular video cameras are not Flock cameras. The data that they pick up can

[42:56] be converted to Flock >> Yeah, there is there's there's there's

[43:00] there's there's a lot to it. But I wanted to address that.

[43:03] So the president knew it could be if you weren't ignoring it and then we weren't

[43:09] you know, proactively supporting it either. It's

[43:12] something that we don't necessarily need in Bethlehem

[43:14] but you know, we state police and the prosecutor's office I'm sure we're going

[43:18] to keep putting them on state and county roads and uh

[43:22] there is there's that that is deep dot dot com or something. It's it's the it's

[43:26] a advocacy group tracking the cameras. So it's pretty interesting. You know

[43:30] that type of zip code wherever you are in Bethlehem

[43:33] and search the area. Um you know, I shared you know, I had

[43:37] gone all those shopping centers. You know, Lowe's and everybody else

[43:40] there's at least two cameras in every single parking lot.

[43:43] It's an old map. Two cameras in the corners of the buildings and then the

[43:47] the deep dot shows you the kind of the angles that they record as well.

[43:51] » But insurance companies are now asking for

[43:54] any of those any of that information if he was to claim that he had an accident

[43:58] like in an apartment lot or anything like that. They're looking at this.

[44:01] » Yeah, of course. >> And any

[44:04] » The truth of the matter is is that you know, the crime rate in this country has

[44:08] never been lower than it is the last 10 years.

[44:12] And, you know, body cameras didn't do that. You know,

[44:16] and now we're introducing all these these 1984

[44:21] » That's your brother. >> Big Brother type stuff. And it's like

[44:25] » Is he an alien? >> Yeah.

[44:26] » Well, but it's like why do we need this stuff when

[44:30] » We don't already They needed to control. >> Yes.

[44:37] » Then it's house and safety and protection.

[44:39] » Oh, right.

[44:45] » And then uh >> Nothing else uh for now.

[44:49] » I'm going to stop reading there after the third actually cuz I'm not actually

[44:52] reading. >> I'm pretty sure we need that.

[44:54] » I'm not sure if >> Don't get it twisted.

[44:55] » Don't get it twisted. >> Back to 4:00.

[44:59] » We're having a party this Friday for all ages. Movie fireworks and movie

[45:02] fireworks impress me. >> Mhm.

[45:05] » We're going to do fireworks. The DNA is >> Very explicit.

[45:09] » Yeah. >> I've got the best view of the back porch

[45:13] and actually see the >> Yeah, you can do that.

[45:16] » Yeah, that's our backyard. You can do that.

[45:21] » Save me a seat for years. >> Unless you're invited to fall over

[45:25] there.

[45:28] » Uh yeah, it's something to do with the airport.

[45:32] » Uh so so you can the subcommittee met. Uh we have

[45:36] a lot of questions. >> Is it okay if I speak now?

[45:40] » Um Um we have a lot of questions. This

[45:44] property is is entirely within the 150-ft

[45:48] um um

[45:50] » I think we need to talk about the setbacks.

[45:52] » setback. And so um we are concerned about um

[45:58] » the nation. >> D Well, D B has a

[46:02] uh letter in the packet that says that all these conditions do exist and then

[46:08] it needs and that this would need a DEP permit.

[46:12] Um and

[46:15] we did not think that it would be possible to get a DEP

[46:19] permit under the conditions that this is under at this point. So

[46:24] uh we do have some questions for Tom as for them

[46:28] as to whether or not um this is actually and there's any way

[46:34] that this can be done. Um and to that end we kind of feel that

[46:38] it's a bit of a waste of time of our time

[46:41] to even review this until we know that they do have

[46:45] » It's a legal applicant find that >> Right.

[46:50] » Yeah. >> Is this question at Mark Arndt?

[46:53] » Yeah. >> Okay. So that is our general

[46:58] view of this whole thing. >> Yeah.

[47:01] Do we have to run that by the attorney or what?

[47:04] » Oh yeah, good. So we're going to schedule schedule. We have a

[47:08] hearing scheduled >> The same one again for the 19th.

[47:11] » 26th. >> 26th.

[47:13] » The hearing being the 26th. >> That would be the 26th.

[47:18] » Yeah. >> September 26th. It it It will show this

[47:21] this property did appear before us so we can ask the attorney some clarification

[47:25] on this but because our process I agree we don't want to waste your time but our

[47:29] our process is if you if approval's granted it's

[47:33] granted. Or you know we would get the final

[47:38] agency approvals as well. We are a fresh staff so I I don't know

[47:42] if you have the ability to preempt it because again this is this property came

[47:47] before us and our attorney and this is one of the

[47:50] reasons we found our one of our previous municipal zoning attorney Cara

[47:54] represented landscape burner who came before I saw this property

[48:00] and did not go there because uh they ended up with uh DP issues they couldn't

[48:06] resolve. I don't know if somebody's going to die differently this time or

[48:09] there's some objections, um but I I don't know if we have the

[48:12] right to uh Ted, if you don't want to we can't hear

[48:16] it. >> We've had numerous people come in here

[48:19] and then disappear. >> Yeah.

[48:21] » For different things. One guy fixed four clubs.

[48:25] Nobody else. >> On that property?

[48:27] » Yeah. >> Okay, so

[48:28] » They just disappeared and they found out that they had to go through

[48:31] » the DPT section. >> Yeah, I mean that may be the case. I

[48:35] just don't know if we I mean I mean they they

[48:37] they have done quite a bit. >> It seems they paid for it all and so

[48:41] let's let's let's wait for the hearing to be done with the difference.

[48:48] » May I have their ward numbers or anything?

[48:50] » Mr. Chairman. >> All right.

[48:53] » From they had um they had a sub committee meeting and they had

[48:56] questions. Would they be putting them together and sending them to me so that

[48:59] I can put them in the file or forwarding them over to the

[49:04] uh the engineer {slash} attorney so that we have plenty of time for them to

[49:07] respond to the sub committee between now and the time of the hearing?

[49:11] » All questions have to be addressed at the proper point which is actually a

[49:16] hearing. >> Okay.

[49:17] » So >> So then I don't have any

[49:19] » The why they don't think they they The reason why we do this is that uh

[49:25] they can keep the applicant when it just comes in front of us the night of the

[49:28] hearing. We might not be seeing what they had spent a lot of more time

[49:32] looking at. And so they have more questions than just the general board

[49:36] members will have. And so then that conversation can happen they can they

[49:40] can open they can testify to each of these questions and you know do that.

[49:45] » There's a word. >> Come back at a later time, but I think

[49:49] it's premature to have them to ask a bunch of questions when it's the

[49:52] applicant doesn't have the ability right now to answer

[49:55] them.

[49:58] All right. Do you have anything else for me?

[50:01] Yeah. >> Just that um I'm not going to be at the

[50:04] meeting uh September 14th. >> Okay.

[50:09] We'll be trying to >> Yeah.

[50:11] » So uh we should we bring in uh City View?

[50:16] Is it filling in there? Yeah, I'll probably

[50:19] » No, no, no, no. >> Yeah, but I'm not trying to get the

[50:21] agenda at this point. Okay. So you can have the

[50:24] minutes from the recording or >> From the recording and from the video.

[50:27] Yeah, we can do that. >> If there are any changes, let us know.

[50:31] » Yeah, I mean if something suddenly comes onto the agenda,

[50:34] um and the other thing is is that we um

[50:38] we have the open um the the application of Castle Lee's that

[50:42] we're we're holding on that for now. That application for now.

[50:47] » Okay. >> Okay.

[50:51] » All right. Anything else? No.

[50:55] Motion to adjourn? >> I second.

[50:57] » All in favor? >> Aye.

[51:01] » All right.

Planning Board: 8/34/3036

Transcript