[6:22] Uh, Mr. Mayor, we need to announce that

[6:24] since Mr. Powers is here, life can go

[6:26] on.

[13:13] He's

[13:22] actually

[13:24] >> All right. Good evening everybody. It is

[13:26] » All right. Good evening everybody. It is

[13:26] 6:32. We'll go ahead and get this

[13:28] started. Um I'm going to let Fris uh do

[13:31] some opening remarks since uh many of

[13:34] y'all are just meeting him for the first

[13:35] time so he can kind of just give himself

[13:37] an introduction and then uh Mr. Hollow

[13:39] will take it over.

[13:42] looking around the room. Uh I think I've

[13:44] met most of you. My name is Fabric

[13:46] Cababona. I have the pleasure of serving

[13:48] as city manager. Third day on the job

[13:51] now. Um so it's certainly a pleasure to

[13:54] be here among you and be able to serve

[13:56] this community. Um like to take this

[13:59] opportunity to just thank city council

[14:01] for the opportunity for entrusting me

[14:03] with this responsibility and I look

[14:06] forward to uh working with each each and

[14:07] every one of you. If you have any

[14:10] questions, if you need to visit with me,

[14:12] please uh feel free to come see me.

[14:15] >> Thank you.

[14:16] » Thank you.

[14:16] >> Thanks, sir. Mr.

[14:23] » So,

[14:25] Freeze is the one that asked me to kind

[14:27] of do this. So, apparently he uh learned

[14:30] to be just as bossy as Bev. So, that's

[14:32] why we're uh here tonight. But I was

[14:34] kind of asked to give um a little and

[14:37] some of y'all have probably already had

[14:38] this at least on counsel with your oh

[14:41] for reason I go way back so it's okay.

[14:43] Um during the uh first 90 days that you

[14:47] take counsel you're supposed to take the

[14:48] the seminar. Well th this is a certified

[14:51] presentation that I got from the AG.

[14:53] They certified on it. It's a little bit

[14:54] it's a little bit uh dated. It's from I

[14:58] think maybe 21 or 22, but I've updated

[15:01] spent the last couple days kind of

[15:02] updating it on some some of the lot like

[15:05] the agenda postings for example. Um I

[15:07] think I caught most of them, but maybe

[15:09] not. But it's it's pretty much up to

[15:10] date. So, what I'm going to do is just

[15:12] kind of go through generally speaking

[15:15] the um the Open Meetings Act, what it

[15:18] is, what it's for, um what are some some

[15:21] tricks and traps about the Open Meetings

[15:23] Act because there there can be um you

[15:26] know, the law is is easy to write and

[15:28] it's easy to read at times, but it's not

[15:30] always easy to implement. That's why we

[15:32] have case law because sometimes it's

[15:34] difficult to implement the case law. And

[15:36] I don't know that I've met every one of

[15:38] y'all, but I am Michael Alla, the city

[15:41] attorney. Um, and so it's nice to meet

[15:44] the gentleman from the PND that I

[15:46] haven't met. Um, and so at any time

[15:49] y'all have questions, just really just

[15:51] say, "Hey, interrupt. It's not a

[15:53] problem." Just say, "Hey, got a

[15:54] question." And that's what we'll take

[15:56] and and uh I'm happy to answer that. So,

[16:00] uh, number two there, Angela.

[16:04] Yeah. just make sure Angel's awake. So,

[16:05] I'll just call out the numbers. So, this

[16:08] is kind of what we're going to do, who

[16:10] it applies to, you know, what's a

[16:12] quorum, you know, what what is like a

[16:14] meeting and so all that kind of stuff

[16:16] because there are are again um they give

[16:19] you a definition, but sometimes how it

[16:21] plays out, you may or may not realize it

[16:24] because there's a lot in the law that

[16:28] you can step into unintentionally. Now,

[16:31] that used to protect you a lot. You had

[16:34] to be knowingly in violation of the Open

[16:38] Meetings Act. Um, but now they change.

[16:41] It's still a class B misdemeanor, which

[16:43] is, you know, up to six months in in

[16:45] jail. $2,000 fine. That's the max. Uh,

[16:48] but it is now they've taken out that

[16:50] knowledge requirement. It is if you do

[16:54] it and it's a quorum and you're doing it

[16:56] without the That's it. You're Now,

[16:59] here's the thing, too. from a I always

[17:03] like to give some practical aspect to

[17:05] whenever I make presentations and not

[17:07] just go and let y'all think that's what

[17:09] happens in real life because y'all from

[17:12] this particular council um they're all

[17:15] always asking questions as a whole uh

[17:17] some more so than others not singling

[17:18] out Mr. powers or anything, but this

[17:20] particular council always asks questions

[17:22] and they want to know. But I also want

[17:24] to provide you some practical

[17:26] application. As y'all are aware, because

[17:29] you're alive for more than five minutes,

[17:31] life is full of politics. DAS do not

[17:34] like to get involved in he said, she

[17:37] said, oh, they violated the open

[17:39] meetings act. they they might dip their

[17:41] toe in the in the water to look like

[17:43] they're doing this or whatnot, but the

[17:46] typical general normal average DA does

[17:48] not like to get involved in this. So,

[17:50] what I want to say is if you're sitting

[17:53] there and you feel like, "Oh crap, I

[17:54] think I may have done it. I didn't mean

[17:56] to do it." I don't want you to worry.

[17:58] Now, on the other hand, I have to

[18:00] balance that. I don't want you to go,

[18:02] "Well, DA's not going to give crap. Why

[18:04] Why should I?" No. No. that's not

[18:07] you've got series of violations over

[18:10] time that could be an issue. So, I'm

[18:13] going to try and drop in some practical

[18:15] application of all of this stuff as well

[18:18] as just telling you, okay, this is what

[18:19] it is and this is what it means. And

[18:21] again, if y'all need some of that

[18:23] practical application, hey, got a

[18:25] question? Hey, got a comment? Hey, got a

[18:28] hypothetical, whatever, just ask me.

[18:30] Three, please.

[18:35] Okay. So, it's been around as you can

[18:36] see. I mean, I'm not going to

[18:38] necessarily read it, but it's really

[18:40] important to look at uh Cornin wasn't

[18:43] too bad for a guy that started out as a

[18:45] little bit of a liberal DA down in

[18:46] Austin. I don't think he's he's too bad

[18:49] of a guy. He has led us some some good

[18:51] things. I I really want to stress

[18:55] the general rule because everything that

[18:57] we're going to talk about today

[19:00] falls under that umbrella. And it is

[19:04] very important to remember just in the

[19:08] PIA there's some carryover.

[19:11] Everything is public knowledge.

[19:13] Everything should be available to the

[19:15] public. The reason that we can go into

[19:18] executive session there are exceptions

[19:21] to that general rule. Sometimes people

[19:24] forget about the general rule and they

[19:27] just quickly run into executive session.

[19:29] I'm like, okay, remember the general

[19:31] rule is everything's got to be public.

[19:32] You have to find the exception to go.

[19:34] You can't just go in exact session

[19:36] because you feel like it. Okay. So,

[19:37] that's what I'm trying to stress about.

[19:39] PIA is the same thing. The general rule

[19:42] is every single bit of piece of

[19:44] information that is possessed by the

[19:46] city

[19:48] that is open to the public. That is open

[19:51] to the public. Now, I have been saying

[19:54] for a number of years that there are

[19:57] some cities out there with

[19:59] administrators, and this is a good good

[20:01] for so at least knows how I feel about

[20:03] it, that I'll give you a great example.

[20:06] A few years ago, a council member um not

[20:09] that council members ever want to know

[20:11] more than they need to know, but this

[20:13] particular council member wanted to know

[20:15] all of the police vehicles. Like, I need

[20:18] I I need to know where they are, what

[20:19] their number like, but okay. Why they

[20:21] need to know? Doesn't matter. Okay. I

[20:24] said, "Look, y'all need to give this

[20:26] council member that information. Just

[20:29] they're they're elected by the people.

[20:32] They have more of a right to that

[20:34] information than anybody that works at

[20:37] city hall than any employee because

[20:39] they're the only six people in y'all's

[20:41] case, seven only people that were

[20:44] elected by the public." I said, "You I

[20:46] don't care that we've got some

[20:47] undercover vehicle." Now, maybe go to

[20:49] that council member and explain to them

[20:50] the situation and say, "Hey, you know

[20:52] what? Maybe that's not a good idea that

[20:54] we don't want to let that out there."

[20:56] yada yada yada. But I'm not going to sit

[20:58] there and say that you can keep that

[20:59] from a council member. Now, the

[21:01] legislature finally caught up with me. I

[21:03] think it was House Bill 48041 maybe

[21:06] something. It's entitled special right

[21:08] of access. So now they have codified um

[21:13] specifically that members of the

[21:14] governing body have a special right of

[21:17] access to any and all information. Now I

[21:21] that doesn't always make me popular with

[21:23] staff but that's something I've been

[21:25] saying for years because I look at the

[21:27] general the way the law is phrased the

[21:30] big umbrella and then apply logic which

[21:34] that is probably part of my problem when

[21:35] I'm talking with some people but I take

[21:37] that big umbrella and I apply the logic

[21:39] and I'm like well wait a minute they're

[21:41] the only people elected

[21:43] by the people they should be able to see

[21:45] what are they they're also making all

[21:47] the decisions that affect the city

[21:49] because even though you Mr. city

[21:51] administrator, uh you fire chief, police

[21:53] chief, you know, whatever y'all are

[21:55] making decision, it is because they have

[21:57] given you direction to do that. You're

[21:59] carrying out you're the executive uh

[22:01] function branch carrying out the what

[22:05] has been directed to you by the

[22:06] legislature. So that's I want to stress

[22:09] and make sure that we all understand the

[22:11] big overarching umbrella that we're

[22:13] dealing with when you're talking about

[22:14] the open meetings act. Again, also the

[22:16] PIA. Uh, Angela, please don't take it as

[22:19] insulting. I'm just going to call out

[22:21] numbers when I'm ready to go to the next

[22:22] one. Is that okay? Uh, yes. Because

[22:24] Angela is wonderfully terrific and also

[22:26] scares me a little bit. Four.

[22:30] All right.

[22:32] Who is subject to the Open Meetings Act?

[22:34] Anybody want to venture a guess?

[22:41] » Yes. The guy who wears the hat with a

[22:43] Boy Scout troop that has a football

[22:45] team. Yes, that is right. the the public

[22:48] officials are the ones subject to the

[22:49] open meetings act. No one else can be uh

[22:52] is subject to it because they have been

[22:54] elected by people. They're not they're

[22:56] not appointed by the PNZ. Now, here's

[22:59] what's interesting. If a city wants to,

[23:02] and I never advise this, but a if you've

[23:04] got a board that is purely advisory, not

[23:08] and I I don't think P&Z falls because I

[23:10] think y'all are quasi um you know,

[23:12] legislative in a sense because y'all

[23:14] have more of a specific statutory role

[23:16] than a lot of other places, but purely

[23:18] advisory doesn't technically have to

[23:20] follow the Open Meetings Act. Now,

[23:24] I think it's terrible policy. I think

[23:26] the policy should be everybody that we

[23:28] got. We file the open meetings act. But

[23:31] my role is I treat my clients, the

[23:34] councils, the PNZ as adults. I know of

[23:38] other city attorneys, give you a great

[23:40] example, and we'll get into this. I

[23:43] think individual council members and

[23:44] they and they do what they want.

[23:46] Horrible idea to talk to developers.

[23:49] Horrible idea. The mayor's a little

[23:51] different because that role is a little

[23:53] unique. terrible, but it's not against

[23:55] the law. It's not improper. I know city

[23:58] attorneys that because they see the

[24:01] difficulties and the ramifications and

[24:03] and potential negative consequences that

[24:05] come from that, they have actually told

[24:08] clients it's against the law and they

[24:10] can't do it. I know that because some of

[24:13] these council members from other cities

[24:14] have called me and asked me if that's

[24:15] the truth. So, my goal and what I will

[24:18] do is I'm going to tell you what the law

[24:20] is. Now, well, I'm going to tell you

[24:22] it's a bad idea to do this or that in my

[24:24] opinion, but I'm not going to to tell

[24:27] you something to make my job easier or

[24:29] to keep everybody safe. I want y'all to

[24:31] be aware what the law is and know what

[24:33] you're getting yourselves into and then

[24:35] y'all make the decisions. So, uh, five,

[24:38] please.

[24:40] Um, I do not remember color coding

[24:43] those. Um, but okay. But anyway, what

[24:46] what is a governmental body? So we've

[24:48] got a definition in 5513.

[24:52] All these things can be considered um uh

[24:56] governmental bodies. Now the boards and

[24:58] commissions

[24:59] not governmental bodies. Does anybody

[25:02] know why that is?

[25:05] Who who do what exactly? Yes. They're

[25:08] appointed. So and they can come and go

[25:11] at the pleasure of the city council. So

[25:13] it's important to understand who is and

[25:16] who is not. Now, I believe that our

[25:19] ordinances require all of our boards and

[25:21] commissions to follow the open meetings

[25:23] act. I'd have to go back and look

[25:24] specifically. Um, so

[25:28] way I am going to interpret this is

[25:30] because we've said that in our

[25:31] ordinances, you're a governmental body

[25:34] because you got to follow all the same

[25:35] rules as the other governmental bodies.

[25:37] So, I like that also because it's more

[25:39] consistent. You got consistency there.

[25:42] you you've got a level playing field and

[25:44] everybody's going by the same rules and

[25:46] you don't get confusion on who does this

[25:48] or who does what? Uh, six.

[25:57] All right, great question. Anybody know

[25:58] what a quorum is?

[26:11] right? A majority of that of a governing

[26:14] body, right? Simple majority. Um, now

[26:17] there are times it's kind of unique. We

[26:19] are no longer a general law. But you

[26:22] look at say 22037038

[26:25] where they call for special meetings.

[26:26] And I say this because less than a year

[26:28] ago we were. You actually had to call a

[26:30] special meeting. Either the mayor could

[26:32] call a special meeting or it

[26:34] specifically says in statute three

[26:36] members of a uh of the governing body

[26:39] could call. Well, that's three out of

[26:41] five. Does anybody know why it took

[26:43] three members to call a special meeting?

[26:49] » Because a it was okay because a quorum

[26:51] for special meeting was four of the

[26:53] five. So technically specifically

[26:56] according to that statute. So I'm saying

[26:57] sometimes it can be tricky. It's easy to

[26:59] read but it can be tricky. So we've got

[27:02] it all laid out in the charter so it's

[27:04] much easier. So it's very important to

[27:07] remember again I'm going to point back

[27:09] to it all the time. The big overarching

[27:11] umbrella that we're talking about back

[27:13] when we were in general law we're

[27:14] talking about a special meeting forum

[27:16] was different took three members to uh

[27:19] to call it or the mayor because you

[27:22] needed four to have that meeting seven

[27:24] please.

[27:28] Now, we have it outlined uh in the

[27:30] statute, and I had to go back and add um

[27:33] home rule because we're home rule city.

[27:35] Um so, that's going to depend on the

[27:37] charter that we've we talked about that

[27:40] some of the people were on the home rule

[27:42] charter commission and with almost no

[27:45] exceptions, we were able to make the

[27:47] charter the way that we

[27:49] wanted to make it. And so, um there you

[27:53] go right there. It's a majority of the

[27:56] governmental body. Um, and of course the

[27:59] EDC and things like that is the majority

[28:02] of the of the board members. Three of

[28:03] five. Some some EDCs and things like

[28:05] that, type B's or type A's have seven.

[28:07] So obviously that would be four of the

[28:09] seven just like our council now has

[28:11] seven. Um, eight, please.

[28:15] So what is the meeting? Anybody venture

[28:18] a guess on that?

[28:22] I guess

[28:25] >> that is that that is that the only

[28:27] » that is that that is that the only

[28:27] definition of a meeting?

[28:28] >> Okay. All right.

[28:31] » Okay. All right.

[28:32] >> Okay. Anybody else?

[28:38] » All right. Anybody else?

[28:41] Okay. Go to uh nine, please

[28:46] look at that. I would say you're all

[28:47] right. It's absolutely when it's

[28:50] scheduled. That is the definition in D a

[28:52] gathering conducted by the governmental

[28:54] body which the government body is

[28:55] responsible core members present uh

[28:58] called by the governmental body. So

[29:00] there's your meeting and you two y'all

[29:02] are definition a a deliberation.

[29:05] What does deliberation mean?

[29:13] » It's very interesting. So and that is

[29:16] the subject of some case law too.

[29:19] deliberation. You just look at the

[29:21] dictionary definition. It means long

[29:24] detailed conversation.

[29:26] That's what deliberation means. And so

[29:29] why that's also very important is we've

[29:32] got to and I think if y'all are going to

[29:34] serve for a while, it is not a bad idea

[29:36] to give you some homework and I would

[29:38] peruse chapter 311 of the government

[29:41] code. Why do I say that? Well, chapter

[29:44] 311 is called the code construction act.

[29:49] It is a textbook that judges are

[29:53] supposed to use and they don't always

[29:55] use it, trust me. Uh, but they are

[29:57] supposed to use to interpret rules,

[29:59] ordinances, statutes, regulations,

[30:01] things of that nature. That is the

[30:03] interpretation. Well, 311, I think it's

[30:06] 31011

[30:08] right there, words are given their plain

[30:10] and ordinary meaning basically from the

[30:13] dictionary unless the statute regulation

[30:16] rule defines them in another way.

[30:18] So if you got apple and it means a you

[30:22] know long yellow thing with a with a

[30:24] cover on it for purposes of that statute

[30:27] that's what apple means. If you just say

[30:29] apple without the definition it means

[30:32] the round crisp red green yellow

[30:34] whatever fruit. So it's a very important

[30:37] thing to understand because why now we

[30:40] know what deliberation is and it's a

[30:41] deliberation it's between that long

[30:43] detailed conversation between a quorum

[30:46] of the governmental body or or a quorum

[30:50] of the governmental body and another

[30:52] person and it is when as you two

[30:55] correctly stated during which public

[30:57] business or even public policy over now

[31:00] y'all got to have if y'all are talking

[31:01] about what was going on with Charlie

[31:03] Kirk and the funeral and stuff like

[31:05] Not a problem. Even if it's a corner.

[31:07] But if y'all are talking about, hey, we

[31:10] need to have a resolution honoring

[31:12] Charlie Kirk and what did now you're

[31:14] getting into number three, public

[31:17] business or public policy over which the

[31:20] governmental body has supervisional

[31:21] control. Now that's being discussed.

[31:25] So, and then D, of course, y'all would

[31:27] want to take formal action on that. Now

[31:29] you got a quorum. Now you got a

[31:31] deliberation.

[31:33] not proper. So that that's it's very

[31:36] important to know when you have a

[31:38] meeting. Uh 10 police.

[31:43] So does the which one? A woman make it

[31:47] really easy. Does the open meetings

[31:48] occupy every time there's a quorum of a

[31:50] governmental body? Everybody who wants

[31:52] to say A, of course it does or B maybe

[31:54] depending on the circumstances.

[31:56] Everybody says that A raise your hand

[31:58] that it applies every time.

[32:02] Okay. Well, you got to pick one or the

[32:04] other

[32:05] >> who it says be maybe depending on the

[32:06] » who it says be maybe depending on the

[32:06] circumstances.

[32:10] » Okay. Next slide, please. Angela.

[32:32] Well, and it's also th those aren't

[32:34] require I don't think it's a bad

[32:35] practice for cities to have, but there's

[32:37] no law that requires notice of possible

[32:39] form. Nothing nothing that that

[32:42] requires. Again, a lot of cities do that

[32:44] just to cover themselves. I don't have a

[32:45] problem with it. It it's okay. But y'all

[32:49] getting together and talking about

[32:50] things, for example, social functions,

[32:52] ceremonial events. So if a quorum of the

[32:55] government body had gone uh with Mr.

[32:57] Powers because he was driving all the

[32:59] way to Arizona for Mr. Kirk's funeral,

[33:02] that would have been fine. That would

[33:04] have been an exception. So again, I love

[33:07] exceptions because it reminds us we're

[33:09] focusing on a big overarching umbrella.

[33:11] Hey, everything is open to the public.

[33:14] All meetings, yada yada. So this is an

[33:16] exception to when we have to follow the

[33:18] rules. So I I I I

[33:21] love using exceptions. Next slide,

[33:23] please.

[33:26] >> Sure.

[33:30] » Do

[33:35] you

[33:39] have

[33:46] Friday.

[33:53] It would be my mindset.

[34:19] public

[34:27] » and and all I'm saying is the law

[34:29] doesn't require it. understand

[34:42] our city.

[34:48] » Okay. Yeah. I mean like

[34:56] I've seen examples in city

[35:00] where council members

[35:03] situation

[35:05] relationship.

[35:14] » Okay.

[35:35] It's a good example.

[35:39] You're doing something for good reason.

[35:58] Okay.

[36:03] » Oh, yeah. She's got the form. She's got

[36:05] the form down. Angela know what she's

[36:06] doing. Yeah. She just whip it in.

[36:19] No, no, no.

[36:22] » We do not go back.

[36:25] >> If you want to speak retroactively,

[36:27] » If you want to speak retroactively,

[36:27] that's different.

[36:31] » Oh, no.

[36:40] » By law, They're not required because

[36:42] they're purely purely don't forget that

[36:44] word purely advisory. My recommendation

[36:48] is and most cities do this might not be

[36:51] where they don't. They require any board

[36:53] or commission whether or not they're

[36:55] advisory to follow TOMA which I think is

[36:57] a best practice.

[37:10] They're intended to be

[37:36] Yes. Transparency.

[37:38] >> Well, just as a general principle, I

[37:41] » Well, just as a general principle, I

[37:41] think transparency that's number one.

[37:42] Number two, you also escape from, well,

[37:45] man, I wanted to come down and talk

[37:46] about the park, but no, I didn't know

[37:48] about the meeting. Okay. So now the way

[37:51] we do it now, hey, there's a notice of

[37:52] park board on the on the website because

[37:56] you go click on it and see the agenda.

[37:58] That's a third thing is if you don't

[38:00] follow the open meetings act, you're not

[38:02] posting an agenda. So nobody's and we'll

[38:04] get into that too, but nobody really

[38:06] knows what's going to happen at the

[38:07] parks uh board meeting.

[38:09] >> Hold on. So to use your example, John,

[38:13] » Hold on. So to use your example, John,

[38:13] if if it's a parks board advising

[38:17] merrygoround, whatever they're called

[38:18] these days, and they're just talking

[38:20] about it and they're passing around the

[38:21] idea, just pass around the idea to

[38:24] advise the actual governmental body

[38:26] who's going to make the decision. At

[38:27] that point, it is public knowledge. So I

[38:31] think it's has I don't think it takes

[38:33] away the transparency when you have an

[38:35] advisory board just throwing out ideas

[38:37] because the the action taken in front of

[38:40] the people on the island and then the

[38:43] people could come and talk at that time

[38:45] and say no I don't want to bring Mary go

[38:47] around I want to be read you see what

[38:50] I'm saying because I think a lot of time

[38:53] >> but here's the thing how would they know

[38:55] » but here's the thing how would they know

[38:55] to come and speak about that if there

[38:57] was no agenda posted

[38:58] >> because the advis board is just getting

[39:00] » because the advis board is just getting

[39:00] it planned. The action is the

[39:02] governmental body and then it is posted

[39:03] because they're taking action.

[39:05] >> So, what do you do about people that

[39:06] » So, what do you do about people that

[39:06] complain that I wanted to go to the park

[39:08] board meeting, but you didn't tell me

[39:09] about it?

[39:12] >> It's an advisory board. They're they're

[39:14] » It's an advisory board. They're they're

[39:14] coming up with ideas to give the actual

[39:17] government body the idea. If they want

[39:20] to be a part of that, then they submit

[39:21] their name and they they become part of

[39:23] that plan. So, that's the whole thing.

[39:26] If you're going to be in an advisory

[39:27] board and you want to the one making

[39:29] recommendations. We put it out time and

[39:32] time again for people to be involved. If

[39:34] they don't sign up to be involved and

[39:36] then they want to complain about the

[39:37] green versus red, well then they should

[39:40] have signed up and then they could have

[39:41] injected their voice then. It's I don't

[39:44] think it takes away transparency. The

[39:46] problem where it would take away

[39:47] transparency is if we didn't we did make

[39:51] a decision and just gave a directive to

[39:54] the staff and never did anything.

[39:58] Now, here's the thing. Y'all are

[40:00] advocating for it to to not have to. I

[40:03] I'm saying if you don't want it to

[40:04] follow Toma, you can do that. I I still

[40:08] believe it's a better pra not one way is

[40:10] wrong and one way is right. Hear me. Not

[40:13] saying one way is wrong, one I think

[40:15] it's a better practice. It's a safer

[40:17] practice. It's a more conservative

[40:19] practice to have everybody follow Toma.

[40:22] And I guess a fourth one would be

[40:23] everybody's on the same playing field.

[40:25] Everybody follows the same rules. Again,

[40:27] not wrong if you don't unless our

[40:30] charter sets up and we're breaking the

[40:31] law there. But if our charter is silent

[40:33] on it, it's completely totally up to

[40:35] y'all as the council how y'all want that

[40:38] to play out. I just think it's the

[40:40] better practice of the two choices.

[40:44] >> Fair enough.

[40:45] » Fair enough.

[40:45] >> Yeah. And we did that with the charter

[40:47] » Yeah. And we did that with the charter

[40:47] if I'm not mistaken. When we did the

[40:48] charter, those were all posted and open

[40:51] and everything. I'm not saying that we

[40:53] wouldn't

[40:55] To John's point, if they're just

[40:56] throwing around some ideas,

[41:00] it's keeping him from being able to call

[41:02] two or three people just because they're

[41:03] an advisory board. They're not elected.

[41:33] small things together.

[41:50] » Yeah. And I agree with that because

[41:53] They were making recommendations.

[41:56] >> Yeah. No, and I agree with that. I'm

[41:57] » Yeah. No, and I agree with that. I'm

[41:57] just I was just trying to understand

[42:00] what John's example was. Like if they're

[42:03] just calling to talk about something,

[42:06] you know, two or three, four people are

[42:08] coming up with an idea and they haven't

[42:10] had a meeting since they're not elected

[42:13] officials. They're not are they held to

[42:16] that same

[42:18] that's so strict that the elected

[42:22] I don't know

[42:31] all of the city council and all

[42:34] commissions and committees by city

[42:36] council.

[42:39] » There you go. There you go. So then it

[42:40] has to be so then it would be breaking

[42:42] the law. We didn't

[42:47] » answer that.

[42:48] >> All right.

[42:49] » All right.

[42:49] >> Moving on. These are these meetings.

[42:51] » Moving on. These are these meetings.

[42:51] What determines what makes up a meeting?

[42:53] Number 13, please.

[42:56] So, these are some of the things that

[42:58] you would that you would ask about. Is

[43:00] there a quorum? Is there a deliberation?

[43:02] And we don't know what that means,

[43:04] between the governing body members. And

[43:06] are they discussing public business? So

[43:09] again, all three of those need to be

[43:12] present for there to be a quorum and

[43:15] there be an issue with the open meetings

[43:17] act. Okay? Got to have the quorum. Got

[43:20] to have public

[43:24] being discussed and is that a long

[43:26] detailed conversation between those

[43:28] members? 14, please.

[43:39] Oh, I got the same. I guess I got the

[43:40] same one. Um 15.

[43:45] Okay. So,

[43:48] there's a gathering by and this gets

[43:50] into We were talking about the two

[43:51] definitions gathering by a governing

[43:53] body and a called meeting by the

[43:56] governing body. Still the same rules are

[43:58] going to apply if there's a staff member

[44:01] present.

[44:02] Is there a quorum? Is there are you

[44:05] receiving information from the third

[44:07] party? Well, yeah. So, is the

[44:09] information concerning public visits in

[44:11] control of the public visit and control

[44:12] of the governing body? So if Bris is

[44:15] giving everybody an update and there

[44:16] happen to be five council members there,

[44:19] yeah, you got a meeting. All those

[44:22] things, all those things are present. So

[44:23] just because it's an employee, as

[44:25] wonderful as it's still a meeting 16,

[44:29] please.

[44:37] Now, we've kind of talked about this, so

[44:39] I think everybody's going to get this

[44:40] one. So this is the Christmas party. Is

[44:42] there a liberation is public business

[44:44] being discussed now in general the

[44:47] Christmas party. No, because that's not

[44:50] going to happen. You are going to talk

[44:51] about, you know, Jesus, what he's done

[44:53] for us, the forgiveness, you know, those

[44:54] those kind of of wonderful and good

[44:56] things. And no sarcasm is intended there

[44:58] because I believe in Jesus Christ as my

[45:00] Lord and Savior. But the point is, if if

[45:04] city business starts to be discussed by

[45:07] three people gathered together, doesn't

[45:09] mean it doesn't mean it will be. Okay?

[45:12] Uh I actually from my experience in 26

[45:14] years most of the time at parties like

[45:16] this most of the time it's not I mean

[45:18] some things comments maybe will be made

[45:20] but there's not a quote long detailed

[45:23] conversation about things that are under

[45:25] the control of the governing body. So

[45:30] even though that's specifically an

[45:31] exception that you can get them all

[45:32] together the other things still have to

[45:34] be present for it to be considered a

[45:36] meeting. Uh 17,

[45:41] the mayor's office. You know, the mayor

[45:43] loves to have people in his office when

[45:45] he has gathering. Again, as wonderful as

[45:48] our mayor is, and we're going to have a

[45:50] statue of him before he uh leaves. We

[45:52] all know that. Is the gathering is it

[45:54] been called by the governing body? Is

[45:56] there a quorum present? Are they

[45:57] receiving information from the third

[45:59] party? Is that not just that is the

[46:02] information about again, hey, I want to

[46:04] give you all information about the uh

[46:06] Mr. powers to give information about the

[46:08] Charlie Kirk uh and there's a quorum

[46:09] present. You're having a long detailed

[46:11] conversation about that. It is not

[46:12] information about which the governing

[46:15] body has control. So all of those

[46:19] factors like I said you read it and it's

[46:22] pretty simple but then when you go out

[46:23] and in practice sometimes it'd be a bit

[46:25] confusing to do but all those have to be

[46:28] present. 18 please.

[46:34] Um,

[46:38] yeah, this this comes up all the time.

[46:40] Well, hey, can we go to commissioner's

[46:41] court? What happens if we all go to

[46:43] commissioner's court? Well, okay, here

[46:46] you have a situation where I think it's

[46:48] fine if the entire council wants to go

[46:50] to the county commissioner the the

[46:51] commissioner's court meetings.

[46:54] I don't want there to be any kind of

[46:57] long detailed conversation

[46:59] by a for quum of the council

[47:02] over which that governing body has

[47:04] authority. So going to the

[47:06] commissioner's court meeting is fine.

[47:09] Going to the RCH meeting is fine. Going

[47:11] to whatever meeting you want to go to is

[47:14] fine. My my warning is always be real

[47:16] careful about when you get together and

[47:18] you you talk about different things. Now

[47:20] there's other things that people What

[47:22] about this? We're gonna get we still got

[47:23] a ways to go. So, we're going to get

[47:25] into other stuff. I just want to lay the

[47:28] basic groundwork so y'all don't think

[47:30] again kind of like what I said at the

[47:32] beginning. I don't want y'all to think

[47:33] that, oh crap, we're going to get in

[47:35] trouble because there's a quorum here.

[47:36] No, no, no, no. There are still other

[47:38] considerations and other questions that

[47:40] need to be asked and answered in the

[47:42] affirmative before people need to start

[47:45] worrying about the fact that we've got a

[47:46] quorum of a governing body or board

[47:50] commission present. Uh, Please.

[47:56] Um,

[47:59] now this one's a little bit different.

[48:00] It's kind of interesting. Look at the

[48:03] second question. Is there deliberation

[48:05] by a city council and another person? Is

[48:08] there discussion public business in

[48:10] control of the city? So, you can have

[48:13] members of the city council talking

[48:16] about somebody. Let's say, hey, look,

[48:18] this is where you need as a resident,

[48:20] not only Chis Rockall County. I don't

[48:23] want the outer loop going right here. It

[48:25] needs to be moved over here. Well,

[48:27] that's not I mean I guess they're trying

[48:29] to screw us over and put us there, but

[48:31] you get you're talking about where it's

[48:32] going to go in the county, not

[48:34] necessarily specific to the city. That

[48:36] y'all can all talk about that. That is

[48:39] not an area of which y'all have control.

[48:42] Y'all aren't in control of where that

[48:44] goes. You You may have an opinion and a

[48:46] say and may maybe they might listen to

[48:48] you on that. we can get along with

[48:50] everybody, but that is not something

[48:52] that we as a city have control over. So

[48:55] again, trying to put y'all on a bunch of

[48:58] different scenarios, help y'all see that

[49:00] these same rules apply.

[49:04] >> Yeah.

[49:09] » Right. For them. So

[49:12] it seems like what you're tell

[49:28] here's the thing we're going to get into

[49:30] a little bit of that. Well, but it's not

[49:32] it's not Toma like okay. No, does it

[49:36] apply to what situation does it apply

[49:38] to? If everybody if we've got four a

[49:40] quorum of our council going up there and

[49:42] discussing with the the county

[49:45] commissioner and they're playing off of

[49:47] each other, the council members are

[49:50] playing off of each other. I don't care.

[49:51] I don't represent the county. I don't

[49:53] care what they do. That's their

[49:54] business. My concern is if you have you

[49:57] going up and made statement and then

[49:59] mayor prochem going up. Oh yeah, you

[50:01] know what? I agree with council member

[50:02] Dean because this is what and you've got

[50:04] control over that. You've got control

[50:06] over that. Now you run the risk of a

[50:08] quorum there because y'all are all

[50:09] discussing city business that you have

[50:12] control over without it being posted as

[50:14] a meeting. That's the problem. Now, if

[50:16] it is something like, hey, this is going

[50:18] to affect the county and the county as a

[50:20] whole, blah, blah, and Tim gets I agree

[50:22] with council member Dean or maybe just

[50:24] because you're rich Dean there. Uh, I

[50:26] agree with him, blah, blah, blah. That

[50:27] the way that's going to affect the

[50:28] county. Y'all don't have control over

[50:31] that. That is not a violation. You don't

[50:33] need it posted. Things like that. So,

[50:36] it's not just a I hear what you're

[50:38] saying about Toma applies, but I want

[50:41] you to understand how it applies to you,

[50:43] to you, to you, to you, to you, to you,

[50:47] and to me. That's what I'm trying to get

[50:49] us to understand. So, just us going up

[50:52] there and talking, even if all four of

[50:54] them say, "Yeah, we all agree." If y'all

[50:57] all four went up there and said, "We all

[50:59] agree as a whole that this shouldn't be

[51:03] happening in Rockall County, this part,

[51:04] whatever, but it's not in Mlin Chisum."

[51:07] That's not a revelation of

[51:08] >> what you're saying

[51:14] about

[51:15] >> Yes, that's a good way to phrase it.

[51:17] » Yes, that's a good way to phrase it.

[51:18] That that meeting enemy I like that. I

[51:20] like maybe that's a better way to to

[51:21] phrase it if that if that helps. So I

[51:23] I'm going to copy that. You know Oscar

[51:25] Wild said plagiarism has form of

[51:26] flatter. So I'm flattering you. So

[51:28] that's right. The meeting within a

[51:30] meeting just because the big meeting we

[51:33] aren't protected by Toma too because

[51:35] there was no just said the city council

[51:37] mint and Chisum is going to be at the

[51:39] county commissioners meeting and they're

[51:40] going to meet deliberate about XYZ.

[51:43] There you go. I thank you very much for

[51:45] that. I like him. It's good. Uh 2019,

[51:49] what is it next? Okay. All right. Now,

[51:53] here's the instant messaging board. So,

[51:55] we have Do we have anything on our

[51:57] website for this or whatever?

[52:00] >> Instant messaging like message board or

[52:01] » Instant messaging like message board or

[52:02] anything like that digital like

[52:04] >> we don't. Okay. Uh I mean, all right.

[52:06] » we don't. Okay. Uh I mean, all right.

[52:06] Well, I don't want to get too much into

[52:07] it. Um, but there are specific rules and

[52:11] guidelines if you have a messaging

[52:13] board, like how long you can keep the

[52:14] message, you know, you got to be careful

[52:16] about how quickly you respond or don't

[52:18] respond or this this type of thing. And

[52:20] that's all laid out. And 55106,

[52:23] if y'all want to go and and and look at

[52:26] that when we get uh maybe it'll need

[52:29] more discussion once we get if we get

[52:31] one of those things.

[52:43] Well, two things. As usual, you always

[52:46] are far ahead of me, Mr. Goodwin. Thank

[52:47] you so much for making me look bad. I

[52:49] appreciate that. We're going to get into

[52:51] more of that,

[52:53] but specifically messaging boards like

[52:56] this. cities only allowed to have one on

[52:59] the website and this is a specific

[53:00] statutory

[53:02] uh section to govern that specifically.

[53:05] But we're gonna we're definitely getting

[53:06] into more of that. Uh 21, please.

[53:23] Well, we're not under that specific one,

[53:25] but we're going to get into what that

[53:26] stuff is. So, yeah.

[53:29] So, um

[53:32] I mean this is probably more for for

[53:34] breeze because he's got to set it up,

[53:36] you know, about when you can respond to

[53:37] posts. Uh like I mentioned to you just a

[53:39] minute ago, how long you respond to

[53:40] posts, uh how long they have to be up,

[53:43] you know, you can't take any action,

[53:45] things like that. That's specifically

[53:46] for the message board that we have uh on

[53:49] the website. 22, please.

[53:53] Now, now we're going to get into notice

[53:55] requirements. Some of them have changed,

[53:58] but this is this is constantly something

[54:00] that and and Angela has been fantastic

[54:02] to work with, but because she doesn't

[54:05] just take it for granted. She's always

[54:06] talking about, hey, how should items be

[54:08] worded on the agenda? What and what I

[54:10] actually appreciate about the mayor. The

[54:12] mayor will email me and say, "Hey, look,

[54:14] this is what I want on the agenda, uh,

[54:16] you know, how if I need to change the

[54:17] wording, let me know." Like, and I

[54:19] really appreciate that because there are

[54:21] rules and regulations about how, again,

[54:24] they're going to be general and then you

[54:26] got to kind of have some statutory

[54:27] construction, maybe some case law, AG

[54:29] opinions, things like that about how

[54:31] that plays out. So, 23, please.

[54:37] All right. Uh, this one I wanted to

[54:39] leave up because I want you all know how

[54:41] long does it take the notice of meeting

[54:43] to have be posted. A, B, C, or D?

[54:53] » All right, going on to the next one.

[54:56] I left up the old one because it's all

[54:58] changed now. It's not 72 hours anymore.

[55:01] It's kind of a trick question. I want to

[55:02] see who I could fool. The law has just

[55:05] changed. So now you have to have three

[55:08] full business days, not including the

[55:11] day of the meeting and I think not

[55:14] including the day that you post. So you

[55:17] post like you post on a Monday, Tuesday,

[55:20] Wednesday, Thursday, you can have a

[55:22] meeting on Monday. We're different

[55:24] because we're closed on Fridays. So

[55:26] Friday is not a business day. So it

[55:28] doesn't count. I told you the state

[55:30] legislature does whatever they can to

[55:31] make life more difficult for us. So now

[55:34] we have meetings on Tuesday. We need to

[55:36] get everything posted by the previous

[55:38] Tuesday. Uh because then you've got

[55:40] Wednesday, Thursday, and Monday. Boom.

[55:42] And we have a meeting on on Tuesday. So

[55:45] it's very important that everybody, you

[55:47] know, if you need anything to get it to

[55:49] Angela in plenty of time that we can now

[55:52] post uh 25.

[55:56] All right. Now we're getting to what is

[56:00] sufficient notice. Now you look at the

[56:04] far right. Sufficient to alert the

[56:06] public in general terms

[56:10] of the subject that will be considered

[56:12] in the meeting. I've had city uh

[56:15] officials ask me, well wait, we we can

[56:18] just meet about that because we've got

[56:19] executive session on the agenda. Well, I

[56:22] go look and they mean literally, not

[56:26] figuratively. They have executive

[56:28] session on the agenda and they think

[56:29] they can talk about whatever they want.

[56:31] again. No, no, no, no, no. Those are

[56:35] exceptions. And you've got to have an

[56:37] idea. You can't just hide what you want

[56:39] to talk about. You got to have something

[56:42] even on executive session items. So,

[56:45] while they won't be per pre peri privy

[56:47] to the discussions in executive session,

[56:50] you got to have an idea and give the

[56:52] public an idea generally what you're

[56:55] going to be talking about in executive

[56:57] session. So we like we did last night is

[57:00] a great example. The 8.2 that Oh, thank

[57:03] you very much for that. The 8.2 item,

[57:06] the 8.2 item when we went executive

[57:08] session and it was fine the way it was

[57:10] written on the agenda to be able to go

[57:12] into executive session because they

[57:14] don't know what we're talking about in

[57:16] there. They don't have to know the the

[57:18] discussions, but they know the general

[57:20] subject matter that was discussion

[57:22] executive session. And that that is what

[57:26] the open meetings act requires. So you

[57:29] you can't just cart blunch, leave it

[57:32] wide open that we're just going to have.

[57:34] That was like the funniest thing. Well,

[57:37] at the time it really wasn't that funny

[57:38] when Yeah, we've got on the agenda. What

[57:40] do you got on the agenda? Exact session.

[57:43] But you don't have to have it on that

[57:45] you want to talk about the chief of

[57:46] police. Well, we got executive session.

[57:48] They literally thought that was enough.

[57:50] Okay. So, um

[57:54] the well and I put rule of thumb because

[57:57] but there's actually some case law on

[57:59] this for example everybody puts an

[58:02] executive session for

[58:05] um for uh personnel 551074

[58:09] A1 discuss and consider the dismissal

[58:12] reassignment uh of duties etc of a

[58:15] public officer employee to wit and then

[58:18] they'll put the title okay that's all

[58:19] you need to put now here's what's

[58:21] interesting is

[58:23] if you just put police officer,

[58:26] that doesn't require as much notice as

[58:28] if you put chief of police right there.

[58:32] The more important the particular

[58:33] subject is to the public, the more

[58:36] specific the notice needs to read. So

[58:39] again, if you're going to discuss a

[58:41] police officer, don't mean to offend

[58:43] anybody, but that is not as heightened

[58:46] in interest to the public as the chief

[58:49] of police. Good example is somebody big

[58:52] like Dallas or Fort Worth. Do you all

[58:55] ever take notice if you saw a police

[58:57] officer on the agenda? Probably not.

[59:01] Maybe if you knew him or her, then maybe

[59:03] so. Now, are you going to look at a

[59:05] little closer? If you see on the agenda

[59:07] the Fort Worth Chief of Police. Yeah.

[59:11] Yeah. So, that's what we're talking

[59:12] about. The more important a particular

[59:14] uh subject is, the more specific you

[59:17] need to be. So, that's great for us. We

[59:19] know that every single person in the

[59:21] city of Mlin Chisum there is a

[59:23] physiological of the change that goes

[59:25] through them once they pass our borders

[59:27] and become a resident here and they care

[59:29] about every bit of land use that goes

[59:31] on. So I know that about this. So Angela

[59:34] and I get together and we go into a

[59:36] little bit more detail anytime we put

[59:38] information about about plats. You see

[59:41] her when she talks about you know

[59:42] discuss consider uh approving a plat for

[59:45] 8.2 2 acres out of the WB Warfield

[59:48] survey generally blah blah blah you know

[59:50] number whatever the number is uh blah

[59:52] blah blah generally located at the

[59:53] southwest corner of 550 and whatever

[59:56] okay that's that's a lot more detail

[59:59] than you put on a lot of other agenda

[1:00:01] items okay um that's that's real

[1:00:05] important to understand too of why we

[1:00:07] put things on the agenda the way we the

[1:00:09] way we do uh 26

[1:00:16] Okay,

[1:00:18] this one's pretty easy because Angela

[1:00:20] does a fantastic job. Anybody know where

[1:00:23] you're supposed to put uh a copy of the

[1:00:25] agenda,

[1:00:30] » man. You know what? I'm gonna have to

[1:00:31] stop you from like you're not allowed to

[1:00:32] enter anything. People forget a lot

[1:00:34] about the website and this is me. It

[1:00:37] doesn't matter how long I've been doing

[1:00:38] this. I I had pretty sharp several years

[1:00:40] ago had a pretty

[1:00:42] city secretary and uh it was a small

[1:00:45] town about 900 people so you know she's

[1:00:48] not as refined as say Angela is or

[1:00:49] somebody is super nice lady loved

[1:00:52] working with her and we're going along I

[1:00:55] don't even remember how it came up

[1:00:56] they're once a month you know type

[1:00:58] meetings and um she mentioned something

[1:01:01] about I said wait a minute you have a

[1:01:03] website

[1:01:05] I've been here for like two and a half

[1:01:06] three years she's like yeah you know

[1:01:08] there's a website I'm like you do do you

[1:01:11] post the agenda on the website? She's

[1:01:13] like, well, no. Do we have to? I'm like,

[1:01:14] oh my gosh. I'm like, technically, yes.

[1:01:18] Posting it on the website is just as

[1:01:21] important as posting it in a conspicuous

[1:01:24] place in city hall. Okay. And thank you

[1:01:27] to Angela for being here. We had a while

[1:01:30] back, we had a city secretary that would

[1:01:34] post, and I remember this because of a

[1:01:36] certain lawsuit we're involved in a

[1:01:38] blank agenda for August the 5th, 2021.

[1:01:42] We didn't have a meeting. Why Why are

[1:01:44] you Why are you posting a blanket

[1:01:46] template agenda for a meeting that we

[1:01:48] didn't even have? Causes a lot of issue.

[1:01:51] Okay? So, you got to know what to post

[1:01:53] and what not to post on there. So, it

[1:01:56] doesn't do anything. Maybe she'll post,

[1:01:58] "Hey, Daryus canled the meeting." Boom.

[1:02:00] Puts on the website so the citizens

[1:02:01] know. Okay? But you're not going to post

[1:02:03] a blank agenda. But that's how important

[1:02:07] the website is in addition to posting it

[1:02:09] in a conspicuous place. Uh, next one,

[1:02:12] please. 287.

[1:02:16] All right. What uh what does the notice

[1:02:19] of the of the meeting versus the agenda?

[1:02:21] Okay. Agenda is not really defined by

[1:02:26] the open means act. Okay, we we have

[1:02:29] kind of created the term agenda as

[1:02:32] that's a again 311 011 words are given

[1:02:36] their plain ordinary meaning and what do

[1:02:38] I have there black's law dictionary

[1:02:40] because that's what attorneys love to

[1:02:41] use a list of things be done that's just

[1:02:44] what we're doing these are the things

[1:02:45] we're going to do at our meeting so

[1:02:48] that's an agenda that's what we have

[1:02:51] that's why we came up with that 28

[1:02:52] please

[1:02:57] Uh, well, we already gone through this.

[1:02:59] I jumped a little bit ahead. I guess I'm

[1:03:00] channeling my inner Mr. Goodwin 29.

[1:03:02] Please

[1:03:05] say there's posing because now we all

[1:03:07] know I left it on there. So now we know

[1:03:09] that it's actually for three business

[1:03:11] days and it's still got to follow all

[1:03:15] the same posting requirements

[1:03:17] of the Now the one reason I have it up

[1:03:20] there is to remember if there's been an

[1:03:22] attempt to post it on the website and

[1:03:25] this has happened on occasion um that

[1:03:28] you attempt to post on the website and

[1:03:31] something happens that is beyond our

[1:03:33] control a technical diff and that's

[1:03:35] actually does

[1:03:37] It's not I'll just say it's not uncommon

[1:03:40] and let's say there is a day and a half

[1:03:42] that it wasn't on the web. We're still

[1:03:44] fine. We can still go that is exception

[1:03:47] 043 that talks about hey you know what

[1:03:50] if there's a good faith attempt to post

[1:03:51] the agenda but there's a technical

[1:03:53] difficulty which makes it non-compliant

[1:03:56] with the the posting rule three business

[1:03:58] days we're still good. So, it's it's

[1:04:01] important to be aware of things. You

[1:04:03] want to make sure it's fixed, but nobody

[1:04:05] worry if there's a true technical

[1:04:06] difficulty. We're going to be okay. Uh

[1:04:09] 30, please.

[1:04:14] That's an example of what agenda looks

[1:04:16] like. Uh Angela's already got this

[1:04:18] nailed down. Um so, we're we're good to

[1:04:22] go on that one.

[1:04:25] 31. Sorry.

[1:04:28] All right. Um we may We go back and Oh,

[1:04:31] no. We got I got it written in there.

[1:04:32] Good. Yay. Me. So, are four and five on

[1:04:35] the agenda? Are they sufficient to

[1:04:38] notice the inform the public of the

[1:04:40] subject to be discussed?

[1:04:45] Yes. And no.

[1:05:03] All right. It's not. In fact, I can't

[1:05:06] stand it. I can't stand city managers

[1:05:08] report, mayor's report. I mean, like

[1:05:10] whatever that is just opening up the

[1:05:13] door to having a what's it? Long

[1:05:17] detailed conversation about whatever

[1:05:19] they want to whatever they want to talk

[1:05:20] about. Hate it. Hate it. Hate it. I also

[1:05:22] think the AG opinions back me up on

[1:05:25] that. I think mayor's report and our

[1:05:28] mayor does a great job on that updating

[1:05:31] the uh the uh reclamation and

[1:05:34] restoration in Kirk County like stuff

[1:05:36] like that he puts on the agenda. Now

[1:05:39] there still doesn't need to be

[1:05:40] discussion on that any kind of long

[1:05:41] detail conversation but he can give an

[1:05:44] update talk about it so we do a good job

[1:05:47] on that. But again, you see all the time

[1:05:49] a lot of cities have departmental

[1:05:52] reports, police report, fire report,

[1:05:54] code enforcement, public works report,

[1:05:56] all those things. Okay, I guess you can

[1:05:59] just give the report, but you can't

[1:06:00] really talk about it. You can't discuss

[1:06:02] it. I mean, you know, there's no there's

[1:06:04] none of that on there. So, it's real

[1:06:06] important to remember what do you want

[1:06:09] to do with an agenda item? What is it

[1:06:11] you want to have? If you just want to

[1:06:13] let people know about it, we could do

[1:06:16] that. There's nothing almost almost

[1:06:20] nothing is illegal to have a meeting.

[1:06:23] What I mean by that is people think you

[1:06:26] are procluded from having discussion on

[1:06:29] the uh with a public during a meeting.

[1:06:32] How many thinks you can't have a

[1:06:33] discussion with the public during the

[1:06:34] meeting?

[1:06:36] >> Like having a back and forth discussion

[1:06:38] » Like having a back and forth discussion

[1:06:38] with the public.

[1:06:43] It's a trick question. If it's not on

[1:06:45] the agenda, absolutely not 100%. But I

[1:06:50] have put on the agenda in certain

[1:06:51] situations discuss with the public

[1:06:54] council and uh public discuss I 8.2 uh

[1:06:59] platform blah blah blah whatever. Now

[1:07:02] whether you want to do that or not is a

[1:07:04] that's a policy question. It's not

[1:07:07] illegal and you can actually do that. I

[1:07:09] don't think it's the best policy, but I

[1:07:12] have a handful of times in my career

[1:07:14] help city councils do that to to to to

[1:07:17] foster a public discussion between the

[1:07:20] these citizens that are there, the

[1:07:22] general public and the governing body.

[1:07:24] So that's Mr. Goodwin was on top of

[1:07:26] things. That's that's the issue. Is it

[1:07:28] on the agenda? Uh 33, please.

[1:07:35] Now these are specific statutory

[1:07:37] exceptions. Again, I like that word that

[1:07:40] you can do this. So like when the mayor

[1:07:43] when he gets up there and he goes, "Hey,

[1:07:44] you know what? Beginning of every

[1:07:46] meeting, we like to pick a a name from

[1:07:48] the hat. We like to honor somebody

[1:07:49] that's fallen." Boom. That is

[1:07:51] congratulations, exception. Uh uh

[1:07:53] condolences or thanks. I got no problem

[1:07:55] with that. And he gives a little bit of

[1:07:57] detail about the person that we're

[1:07:59] honoring. that fits exactly in

[1:08:02] with the items of community interest

[1:08:04] because those are things that that

[1:08:06] typically generally normally there may

[1:08:08] be some people out there that aren't

[1:08:10] interested in in that or don't care

[1:08:12] about it or whatever but typically

[1:08:13] generally normally the general person is

[1:08:15] going to be interested in that and they

[1:08:17] are going to want to know about that. So

[1:08:18] there's that would be falling under one

[1:08:20] of the uh exceptions uh 34 please

[1:08:25] because I want to get to the thing that

[1:08:26] you asked about earlier. So, I'm trying

[1:08:27] to to hot foot it. Oh,

[1:08:31] well, we're gonna get All right. I'm I'm

[1:08:32] gonna go faster. So, uh 35. Let me see

[1:08:35] if it's I can't remember if it's next or

[1:08:36] not.

[1:08:40] Okay. Do you all know about this one?

[1:08:41] Can city council change a council

[1:08:44] meeting from one date to another without

[1:08:46] changing it on the agenda?

[1:08:51] Next slide.

[1:08:55] Ah, see I catch you on that. No, you

[1:08:57] can't. All that's got to be done

[1:09:00] per the uh agenda per at a meeting and

[1:09:03] it nothing can be done in that three-day

[1:09:06] business period. Can't make any changes

[1:09:08] to it. I actually had one city secretary

[1:09:11] and I almost had a literal heart attack

[1:09:15] uh because she told somebody, "Well,

[1:09:16] yeah, you posted the original agenda

[1:09:18] correctly on Monday and then Tuesday

[1:09:21] came around. You can add something to it

[1:09:22] and just you don't even have to How are

[1:09:25] you secretary? You need to be fired

[1:09:26] immediately. What are you talking about?

[1:09:28] I can't believe that you would say

[1:09:29] that." Like that was my reaction in my

[1:09:30] head. No, that agenda can't be changed

[1:09:34] once it's posted um from that first day.

[1:09:38] leave it for the business days. You're

[1:09:40] stuck with that with that agenda. Um,

[1:09:43] and even in a quote addendum, you just

[1:09:45] can't go add stuff to the agenda and

[1:09:47] think you're going to comply with the

[1:09:48] open meetings act. Now, my example was,

[1:09:51] oh, okay, like even for the rule, we

[1:09:53] post it on Monday for a meeting on the

[1:09:55] next Monday. Why don't I just put one

[1:09:57] item on the agenda and then Monday

[1:10:00] morning, the day of the meeting, add 15

[1:10:02] more? Like, that didn't make it didn't

[1:10:04] make any sense. So, next slide, please.

[1:10:11] Uh, old business. I think we've already

[1:10:13] covered that. You already know the

[1:10:14] answer. Next slide, please. Yeah. No, I

[1:10:17] I I I hate stuff like that. There's got

[1:10:18] to be more. What old business, for

[1:10:20] example? Um, then that's what you see.

[1:10:23] If I'm gonna Good rule of thumb, if I'm

[1:10:25] going to put an item on the agenda, um,

[1:10:29] what I what is it that I want to talk

[1:10:31] about? That's where you start. So, you

[1:10:33] can come to me and email me and say,

[1:10:34] "This is what I want to talk about. How

[1:10:36] I need to put it on the agenda. Now, the

[1:10:39] mayor has sent me, hey, this is my

[1:10:41] agenda items. It's seven and a half

[1:10:42] pages. Do you think I'm like, okay, we

[1:10:43] can cut that down a little bit, mayor.

[1:10:45] It's it's okay. So, it it doesn't have

[1:10:48] to be too much. So, I I don't want to

[1:10:51] freak everybody out. But you start with

[1:10:53] the first question should be, what is it

[1:10:54] that I want to talk about? Uh, next

[1:10:56] slide, please.

[1:11:05] What do y'all think about that one?

[1:11:10] » That says public testimony.

[1:11:18] » That is the agenda item. Public

[1:11:20] testimony. So the question is, does that

[1:11:22] agenda item give the public a right to

[1:11:24] speak at open meeting on that?

[1:11:35] All right, next slide.

[1:11:39] Remember what and say I'm going to go

[1:11:41] back to this and y'all going to say

[1:11:43] like, oh, you know what? He may be

[1:11:44] crazy, but I get his logic now. The

[1:11:46] overarching principle, what are meetings

[1:11:49] for? So the public participates and the

[1:11:52] public knows. So, yes. And I'm just

[1:11:55] going to tell y'all, I will always defer

[1:11:59] always defer to giving the public like

[1:12:01] the mayor and bless him. I love the man.

[1:12:04] I don't necessarily have a problem, but

[1:12:05] even he could control the meeting and

[1:12:07] say, "Look, everybody that signed up,

[1:12:10] that's that's why we have you signed up

[1:12:11] so we know who's going to speak." But

[1:12:13] then he goes and says, "Hey, I'm going

[1:12:15] to make sure that everybody else does

[1:12:17] anybody else want to speak?" Okay. He

[1:12:19] could legally we get to define yes they

[1:12:23] have a right to speak but we get to

[1:12:24] define the parameters of how they do it.

[1:12:26] So the mayor could absolutely go we have

[1:12:29] rules you sign up fill out the sheet

[1:12:31] before the meeting starts and it's

[1:12:33] Angela that's what we're limiting to but

[1:12:35] he also goes the extra mile and I mean

[1:12:38] granted it can make the meeting last

[1:12:39] because we have more people talk but you

[1:12:41] know what that's keeping with the big

[1:12:43] overarching principle of of what we of

[1:12:47] what we of what we do. So there is zero

[1:12:49] issue with that. Uh no no judge is going

[1:12:52] to come down on somebody because they

[1:12:54] gave the public too much too many

[1:12:56] opportunities to speak. Uh 41 please.

[1:13:08] » Absolutely. Yes.

[1:13:13] Right.

[1:13:26] And that is what the law is. I mean, we

[1:13:28] we can either say, look, everybody is at

[1:13:30] the beginning of we can limit everybody

[1:13:31] to the beginning. You can't put them at

[1:13:33] the end, put them at the beginning, or

[1:13:35] you can say, hey, look, we're going to

[1:13:37] just let everybody sign up for whatever

[1:13:38] agenda item they want to talk on. That

[1:13:40] tends to make the meetings quite long.

[1:13:43] on certain things. So I like how we do

[1:13:45] it. Let everybody speak about whatever

[1:13:46] they want to speak about at the

[1:13:47] beginning because we have a regular

[1:13:50] routine I think of public hearings. So

[1:13:52] there's another opportunity for them to

[1:13:53] speak at that time uh as well. So here

[1:13:56] is and this is something comes up quite

[1:13:58] normally. What can people get away with

[1:14:01] when they're speaking up there?

[1:14:04] My general rule is I almost let them say

[1:14:09] whatever they want to say. I really

[1:14:12] really have a difficult time abridging

[1:14:14] their rights, but there are some

[1:14:15] restrictions put on them. Yes, sir.

[1:14:24] » That is what they're supposed to do

[1:14:25] because yes, it is citizen comments to

[1:14:28] the public. Yes,

[1:14:34] » the mayor the mayor can absolutely step

[1:14:35] in and say, "Hey, look, you need address

[1:14:38] of comments, you know, but I I got to

[1:14:42] speak up for the mayor a little bit. I

[1:14:43] think he does a good job running the

[1:14:44] meetings. I I'm you know he he's if he

[1:14:46] air heirs it's on the side of giving

[1:14:48] people too much of an opportunity which

[1:14:50] is always the side you want to air on.

[1:14:57] » Um so you know you can't get up there

[1:14:59] and yell and scream and and defame or uh

[1:15:02] abuse people and use indecent language.

[1:15:05] You can't do that kind of stuff. Um you

[1:15:07] know so there are some guidelines. Go

[1:15:10] ahead.

[1:15:12] Oh, no, no, no, no. Look, here's the

[1:15:15] thing. I And I They're gone now, so I

[1:15:18] can say it. I was about um You may

[1:15:20] remember the council members better than

[1:15:22] me, even though you weren't you were in

[1:15:23] Lancaster at the time. I was in a

[1:15:24] Duncanville meeting, and they were

[1:15:26] talking about two council members could

[1:15:28] not stand each other, but I did got

[1:15:29] physical. And I said, "Look,

[1:15:32] if the meeting is going on,

[1:15:35] I don't care if one council member stabs

[1:15:37] the other one. Make sure he's safe. Make

[1:15:39] sure take his knife away. You can

[1:15:40] handcuff from the chair, but you don't

[1:15:42] arrest them during the meeting. You wait

[1:15:44] until after the meeting. That's how

[1:15:46] sacrosanct I think legislative immunity

[1:15:49] is. And really, the only time that y'all

[1:15:52] have immunity is when you're acting as

[1:15:53] legislators. Well, when is that?

[1:15:56] When you're up here now. Okay, Council

[1:15:59] Dean, that doesn't mean you go slug

[1:16:01] somebody, you know, during the meeting

[1:16:02] and say, "Oh, Michael said it's okay."

[1:16:04] That is not what I'm saying. But I'm

[1:16:05] trying to give you an example of how

[1:16:07] sacroanked I think the legislative

[1:16:10] immunity uh principle really is. Um

[1:16:14] and I think the mayor the mayor kind of

[1:16:16] like it was kind of cool. He he had you

[1:16:18] did somebody have a meeting I think

[1:16:20] didn't you with the scuba Steve.

[1:16:22] >> Yeah. Yeah. That was pretty so right

[1:16:24] » Yeah. Yeah. That was pretty so right

[1:16:24] there. Disrupting a meeting by physical

[1:16:26] uh action or uh verbal utterance that is

[1:16:29] actually also in the government code. So

[1:16:31] uh Mr.

[1:16:33] >> Oh yeah yeah yeah. He kind of I think he

[1:16:35] » Oh yeah yeah yeah. He kind of I think he

[1:16:35] kind of enjoyed it though. Tweeting me

[1:16:38] pretty much on the third.

[1:16:40] >> Oh yeah. Well, he was warned and then he

[1:16:42] » Oh yeah. Well, he was warned and then he

[1:16:42] just did it. Yeah. I I think he was a

[1:16:44] little irritated because he got the

[1:16:45] warning after the first time. He's like,

[1:16:46] "Well, I got to do it two more times

[1:16:48] now." I think that's what he did. Uh

[1:16:52] >> yeah. Yeah. See? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I

[1:16:54] » yeah. Yeah. See? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I

[1:16:54] think Yeah. Um Okay. Uh 42, please.

[1:17:00] Okay. Um

[1:17:05] So, these are good rules for

[1:17:09] um I don't I put third on there because

[1:17:12] that's in the statute, but really the

[1:17:13] two the two that you got to know of what

[1:17:17] can you respond to public if it's not on

[1:17:19] the agenda. You can state a fact. Hey,

[1:17:23] yeah, you know what? The Earth Day event

[1:17:24] is uh this Saturday, September the

[1:17:29] 7th. Yeah, Earth Day is September 27th.

[1:17:32] That's a fact. You can even not on

[1:17:34] there. Um, hey, our policy is to have

[1:17:38] the city manager present at Earth Day

[1:17:41] and he's the one uh doing all the dirty

[1:17:43] work. That's our you can you can say

[1:17:46] that that's a statement of the policy

[1:17:48] that we have. Those types of things you

[1:17:50] are allowed to do um without when the

[1:17:54] items aren't on the agenda. The issue

[1:17:56] becomes is not so much with the fact one

[1:17:59] but like a policy. Oh, well, you know,

[1:18:01] if that's a policy we had a city

[1:18:02] administrator, is he really going to be

[1:18:04] out there on Earth Day throwing trash

[1:18:05] away and doing? It leads to potential

[1:18:08] discussion of things. That's that's the

[1:18:10] concern that I have. But again, it's not

[1:18:13] my job to tell you uh to do it for you,

[1:18:16] tell you what the law is. I'm sharing

[1:18:18] you what the law is. I'm telling you

[1:18:19] what my concerns are so everybody can be

[1:18:21] aware of. 443,

[1:18:23] please.

[1:18:31] If I can run real fast through the the

[1:18:33] walking quorum. Do you really have to?

[1:18:35] Okay.

[1:18:36] >> Sorry. All right. I want to get there.

[1:18:37] » Sorry. All right. I want to get there.

[1:18:38] All right. Um,

[1:18:44] » you can get together with the other

[1:18:45] council members to talk about it if you

[1:18:47] want.

[1:18:52] » Absolutely. Yeah. See, he learned his

[1:18:53] lesson. Well, very nice. Very nice. All

[1:18:55] right. Uh can a may a governmental body

[1:18:58] continue a meeting the next day? So the

[1:19:00] meeting last night if council say hey

[1:19:02] look we want to continue it tomorrow.

[1:19:03] Can they do that?

[1:19:05] >> Anybody vote no?

[1:19:10] » Y all think that everybody thinks you

[1:19:11] can do that.

[1:19:18] » You go to 44 or 45 46 whatever. Yes you

[1:19:22] can. Yes.

[1:19:25] >> Yeah.

[1:19:26] » Yeah.

[1:19:26] I couldn't get anybody to bite on that.

[1:19:28] Sheesh, man. Um I just paid Eddie to say

[1:19:32] it off.

[1:19:35] >> Oh, really? So, yeah, I think come back

[1:19:37] » Oh, really? So, yeah, I think come back

[1:19:37] the next day. Uh 40 was 47.

[1:19:44] » All right. So, this this gets this comes

[1:19:47] up more often than you think. Can we

[1:19:50] call emergency meeting?

[1:19:52] Well, we got a real big problem where at

[1:19:55] all is out of toilet paper. It's a mess.

[1:19:57] It's It's an emergency. It's a No, it's

[1:19:59] not. Okay. I know it's not good. I know

[1:20:01] it's bad, but you know what? Uh uh send

[1:20:05] Angel out to the 7-Eleven and she can

[1:20:07] get some. So, understanding what an

[1:20:09] actual emergency is, like for example,

[1:20:12] Kirk County, that was an emergency. That

[1:20:15] was like a national disaster. I think I

[1:20:17] put it on here uh because it's been a

[1:20:19] while. Yeah. Fire, flood, earthquake,

[1:20:21] hurricane turnout, wind, rain, or

[1:20:23] snowstorm. Those are what we're talking

[1:20:25] about are the types of emergencies and

[1:20:27] it has been changed. You only have to

[1:20:30] give one hour notice. I mean I I don't

[1:20:33] know whether what I think about they

[1:20:35] change it from two hours to one but you

[1:20:36] got to give one hour notice. But that is

[1:20:39] um uh and I always have to do I always

[1:20:43] have to do the last one because I've

[1:20:44] been asked that

[1:20:46] you know 14 times for every city I've

[1:20:48] represented at the time. What do I

[1:20:49] forgot to put it on the agenda? Sorry.

[1:20:52] got to wait till the next meeting or you

[1:20:54] can call a special meeting. Next,

[1:20:56] please.

[1:21:03] » Will you go back to the last

[1:21:20] emergency?

[1:21:22] It's got to be for us. It's got to be

[1:21:24] for us. I was g So, I'm glad you asked

[1:21:27] about that. I I didn't know that I was

[1:21:28] confusing people, so I apologize. What I

[1:21:31] meant is if if Ker County was calling an

[1:21:34] emergency meeting, then for them that

[1:21:37] absolutely was a emergency. One hour was

[1:21:40] all the notice they needed post on the

[1:21:42] agenda, yada yada yada. So, thank you

[1:21:43] for

[1:21:45] uh Next one, Angela. I really like the

[1:21:47] slide, too, because it reminds me of of

[1:21:50] uh

[1:22:03] Angel was told me to put that in there.

[1:22:04] So, it wasn't my idea. Next one, please.

[1:22:08] All right. Guess who is the record

[1:22:11] keeper of the city?

[1:22:15] » 22073 right there. She is responsible

[1:22:18] for all the records and I'm so glad it

[1:22:21] is Angela now. Um she we had a huge

[1:22:25] issue yesterday a real uh fooar and uh

[1:22:29] our cluster if you watched Heartbreak

[1:22:31] Break Ridge with Cleanswood she fixed

[1:22:33] it. So thank you Angela you were

[1:22:35] fantastic. Um now what I also like about

[1:22:40] what Angela does is you see people

[1:22:43] coming in how much is really required in

[1:22:45] minutes? I've seen minutes that are a

[1:22:48] book. They're this long. You don't need

[1:22:50] all that stuff. There's no specific

[1:22:52] provisions. There's basically a minimum.

[1:22:54] What I prefer to have on there, I prefer

[1:22:57] to have the agenda item.

[1:23:00] Council member A made a motion. It was

[1:23:02] seconded by council member B. This was

[1:23:04] the vote. So, the motion passed or the

[1:23:07] motion failed, whatever. Boom. Now

[1:23:09] you're done with minutes. You move on to

[1:23:12] the next one. I don't like

[1:23:16] There's, again, I told you I like

[1:23:18] exceptions. I don't like a lot of

[1:23:19] details in the minutes because then

[1:23:21] you're stuck with them. What if

[1:23:23] something happened, somebody said

[1:23:24] something and that's not what they

[1:23:26] really said, boom, you're stuck with it.

[1:23:29] City of Austin, v. Whittington, 2005,

[1:23:32] Austin Court of Appeals. A city

[1:23:35] officially speaks through its

[1:23:37] ordinances, resolutions, and minutes,

[1:23:40] quote unquote. So, the minutes are very

[1:23:43] important. It's not just a

[1:23:46] that's a pain in the butt bookkeeping

[1:23:47] thing we got to do. I mean it is that

[1:23:49] but it's not just that. It is the

[1:23:52] official statement and you're stuck with

[1:23:54] it as a city. So they are important for

[1:23:57] that. Now there are certain things and

[1:24:00] it's a little more applicable to us than

[1:24:02] to some other people I represent. I do

[1:24:05] like a little more detail when it comes

[1:24:08] to city council delivering on things

[1:24:10] like zoning. Why is that? Well, if the

[1:24:13] zoning is ever contested, now we've got

[1:24:16] an official in the record

[1:24:19] what the city council considered and

[1:24:21] what people said when let's say you

[1:24:23] choose to deny it. And everybody said,

[1:24:25] "Well, it's going to cause pollution.

[1:24:26] It's going to cause noise. It really

[1:24:28] doesn't fit with the overall scheme, you

[1:24:30] know, in this area." Now, you've got all

[1:24:33] that in the minutes that the city

[1:24:35] council base their decision on. And a

[1:24:37] judge, whether they agree with it or

[1:24:38] not, they still have to consider. So,

[1:24:41] there are it's an exception. So there

[1:24:44] are times when

[1:24:46] less is more isn't the best way to do

[1:24:49] that. So um

[1:24:52] 48 or nine or whatever we're on now,

[1:24:59] B or D

[1:25:06] » forever. Okay.

[1:25:12] Why do you say just curiosity?

[1:25:15] >> Why did you say B out of curiosity?

[1:25:21] » Probably record retention act. Okay. All

[1:25:24] right. Uh so raise hands. Who says two

[1:25:28] years? Anybody? No. Who says five years?

[1:25:32] Okay. Who says 10 years?

[1:25:36] >> Okay. Who said forever? Anybody else say

[1:25:38] » Okay. Who said forever? Anybody else say

[1:25:38] forever? Okay. Dang, you got it right.

[1:25:43] Next one. Yes, we got to keep our reg.

[1:25:46] Well, that's still funny, but that's not

[1:25:48] the Yeah, I do. That is so us. That is

[1:25:52] so us.

[1:25:55] Yes, we are stuck with our records

[1:25:58] because there are people that are going

[1:26:00] to look for our I just did a lawsuit uh

[1:26:02] for a city and we were looking at

[1:26:04] ordinances the city had passed in 2008.

[1:26:07] Lawsuit started in 2022. So 14 years

[1:26:10] prior we were looking at those things.

[1:26:13] You got to keep got to keep records. Got

[1:26:15] to keep records.

[1:26:18] Now there are certain which is why I was

[1:26:20] asking about you the records retention

[1:26:22] act there are certain records minutes or

[1:26:26] recordings of meetings and things like

[1:26:27] that ordinances resolutions those are

[1:26:30] forever but there are certain things

[1:26:32] that and that's a it's a list on on the

[1:26:35] schedule that's five years and you just

[1:26:37] got to keep them and you're good you can

[1:26:38] toss them but our minutes and our

[1:26:41] ordinances are forever uh 50 Please.

[1:26:50] Now, uh we've got to record minutes uh

[1:26:53] record meetings because we are um uh

[1:26:57] we've been doing that. We've got the

[1:26:59] capability to do that and we've

[1:27:00] institute that. So, we got to continue

[1:27:02] to record the meetings and keep those uh

[1:27:04] recordings as well. There are, you know,

[1:27:07] if we were over 50,000 and or a county

[1:27:10] uh if both of those existed, then we'd

[1:27:11] have to as a matter of law. We have to

[1:27:14] because we chosen to start that. You

[1:27:15] can't really

[1:27:18] Which is why if you look at the first

[1:27:19] one, uh, make a video and audio

[1:27:22] recording of reasonable quality of each

[1:27:23] regular schedule. Why I've been so

[1:27:25] nervous until the mayor and Angela got

[1:27:27] here because our recordings have been

[1:27:29] crap for so long.

[1:27:31] So, um, I'm glad that we've got them and

[1:27:34] they have they have fixed that. Uh, 51.

[1:27:38] That's a good little thing for for

[1:27:39] Angela to know.

[1:27:43] So these are a little uh requirement 52.

[1:27:48] I like to throw some of those things in

[1:27:49] there. So can y'all hold a meeting if

[1:27:52] there is uh not a quorum present?

[1:28:01] » Anybody say no?

[1:28:07] All right. Go to 53.

[1:28:10] Here's why where I put no.

[1:28:14] You guys are right. Council member

[1:28:16] London, the mayor, y'all are right. But

[1:28:17] you're like, well, you put no. It's

[1:28:19] because it's not a meeting. Remember

[1:28:22] what our definition is. The first part

[1:28:25] of it is got to have a quorum. So, if

[1:28:27] you don't have a quorum, not a meeting.

[1:28:29] See, you guys were right, but you I

[1:28:32] helped you learn why you were right.

[1:28:35] >> Uh 54.

[1:28:42] Do not think it escaped my attention

[1:28:44] that your right-hand man is now for

[1:28:46] Reese and not me. Just, you know, just

[1:28:48] gonna say that. Uh, let's see.

[1:28:53] >> That's good for y'all just kind of have

[1:28:55] » That's good for y'all just kind of have

[1:28:55] an idea. You know, they can record the

[1:28:58] meetings because I know that we've had,

[1:29:02] you know, one or two citizens that like

[1:29:03] to record our meetings. They can choose

[1:29:05] to do that, but unlike what their

[1:29:07] position was, they can't just choose to

[1:29:09] do it wherever the heck they want to do

[1:29:10] it. They they can't cause a disruption.

[1:29:12] They can't be in the way. Um they can do

[1:29:15] it where the mayor uh as the one who

[1:29:17] runs the meeting sets it up. Um now, I

[1:29:21] know I had to tell the mayor on this one

[1:29:22] particular person uh we can't send them

[1:29:24] up to the second floor. And if y'all

[1:29:26] have a notice, we don't have a second

[1:29:27] floor. That would be the roof. He can't

[1:29:29] send it to the second floor to record

[1:29:30] it. But you can control, you know,

[1:29:33] generally where it is in in the meeting

[1:29:35] area. And same thing for P and D. I'd

[1:29:37] say the chair, you know, it happens.

[1:29:40] Same type same type of deal. Um 55.

[1:29:49] Now we're getting into the executive

[1:29:50] session. So this is more detail. Anybody

[1:29:53] needs a break, let me know. 56.

[1:29:58] All right. So, we actually we probably

[1:30:00] covered a little bit of this, but I want

[1:30:03] y'all to have the procedure because a

[1:30:05] PNZ ever goes in exact session.

[1:30:08] It's going to apply to y'all as well.

[1:30:10] So, the the PNC chair or the mayor as

[1:30:13] the case may be, y'all have the opening

[1:30:15] meeting, you convene, then you y'all are

[1:30:17] presiding officer. So, y'all are going

[1:30:18] to announce, hey, we're going into

[1:30:20] executive session and we're doing it on

[1:30:22] through this specific statute, you know,

[1:30:25] I don't know, 551087.

[1:30:28] up discussing to discuss an economic

[1:30:31] development uh project, you know, just

[1:30:34] by way of example and you quote the

[1:30:36] section and then you go now Angela knows

[1:30:38] you got to keep a copy of the certified

[1:30:40] agenda. Now you got two choices. You can

[1:30:44] keep a copy of certified agenda which is

[1:30:46] literally a piece of paper that is

[1:30:48] signed by the mayor and signed by the

[1:30:49] Angela and then we seal it up and it

[1:30:51] just says, "Hey, this is what was

[1:30:53] discussed exact session and that's it."

[1:30:55] Your other option is to have an actual

[1:30:58] recording

[1:31:00] of what

[1:31:02] happens in executive session. And I can

[1:31:04] just tell you from

[1:31:06] literally going to thousands of ex

[1:31:08] executive sessions, that's the last

[1:31:10] thing anybody wants to do is actually

[1:31:11] have an audio recording of what happens

[1:31:13] in an executive session. So 57,

[1:31:18] but it isn't either war.

[1:31:21] So, just so y'all are aware, it's not a

[1:31:24] huge thing, but that's what the

[1:31:27] certified agenda requires. And I have

[1:31:29] sent Angela a template. It's what we use

[1:31:31] every time. So, if y'all are ever

[1:31:32] interested in looking at it and seeing

[1:31:34] it, um, you can do that. It's just a

[1:31:37] list of who's there, who's present, and

[1:31:40] the item that was discussed. And that's

[1:31:43] that. Um,

[1:31:46] let's see. Uh, 58.

[1:31:51] So, may a member of the governmental

[1:31:52] body or staff release a copy of the

[1:31:54] certified agenda or recording of a

[1:31:56] closed meeting to the public? Remember

[1:31:58] our umbrella rule, everything's open to

[1:32:00] the public. So, the question is A, B, C,

[1:32:02] or D?

[1:32:17] Anybody

[1:32:26] want to go with B or C?

[1:32:30] So everybody is either A or D. Okay,

[1:32:34] Angela, reveal the answer, please.

[1:32:39] It is in fact, it is in fact a criminal

[1:32:42] offense, class B misdemeanor, to release

[1:32:46] a certified agenda without the order of

[1:32:48] a district court judge. Not a county

[1:32:50] court of law judge, not a federal judge,

[1:32:53] not a municipal court judge, not a JP,

[1:32:55] but a district court judge. That is

[1:32:57] actually in statute. So, it's good to

[1:33:00] see our former chief of police got us

[1:33:02] all thrown in jail. That is good. That's

[1:33:04] good. So that that is how sacroyn the

[1:33:08] certified agendas are. But again looking

[1:33:11] at it it's not really intimidating. So

[1:33:13] you might want to just see the form and

[1:33:14] how it is and you can even see the

[1:33:16] certified agenda if you go to a meeting

[1:33:18] any executive session. Hey Angela, can I

[1:33:20] see that before you seal it up? Because

[1:33:21] once it's sealed up, it's sealed up. Uh

[1:33:25] 60 please.

[1:33:30] Now, uh, and I love the fact, I can't

[1:33:33] help it because he did it to himself,

[1:33:35] but, uh, Mr. Bob Steinhagen when he

[1:33:38] disagreed with me, he actually cited the

[1:33:40] same cases I cited. So, really, he does

[1:33:42] agree with me. He just doesn't know how

[1:33:44] to apply what he reads. So, who can

[1:33:46] attend the executive session?

[1:33:54] anybody that you're the PNZ governing

[1:33:56] body or the council of the governing

[1:33:58] body deems to be necessary for the

[1:34:00] agenda item that you're going into

[1:34:02] executive session over that's now there

[1:34:05] are some specific exceptions crafted by

[1:34:08] case law not by statute give an example

[1:34:14] if you are in a real estate deal with

[1:34:15] someone you cannot take them into like

[1:34:18] they're in a contract to buy cannot take

[1:34:20] them into executive session. If you're

[1:34:22] in the midst of a lawsuit with another

[1:34:25] side, you can't go back into executive

[1:34:28] session. So, it's very very important

[1:34:31] that you note the last part is it may

[1:34:34] not admit a person and it it's not a

[1:34:37] period. It does not stop there. It said

[1:34:40] whose presence is against the interest

[1:34:43] of the governmental body.

[1:34:46] That's the key. Is the presence against

[1:34:49] the interest? If it is someone the

[1:34:51] governmental body says, I think their

[1:34:54] their presence is necessary to help me

[1:34:57] understand or make a decision out in

[1:35:00] public about an agenda item. That person

[1:35:04] is not their presence is not against the

[1:35:06] interest of the governmental body.

[1:35:07] That's the phrase right there. He also

[1:35:10] got a 1995 uh district of Texas case uh

[1:35:13] that also supports that. 61, please.

[1:35:18] I think y'all well y'all got I already

[1:35:20] mentioned 087 we mentioned 072 you know

[1:35:23] real property now don't be confused we

[1:35:26] can go back and talk about a real

[1:35:28] property deal that's fine you can go

[1:35:30] specifically on that and in fact you

[1:35:32] don't even need the attorney for 072

[1:35:34] y'all can go back and talk about that

[1:35:36] the the thing about that you can't do is

[1:35:38] the person that you're going to buy or

[1:35:40] sell the property to or from that person

[1:35:43] can't go back so just want to make sure

[1:35:45] that you personnel matters. That's what

[1:35:48] I quoted earlier, 074 A1. There's also

[1:35:50] A2. Um, y'all can go out executive

[1:35:53] session. You don't technically need uh a

[1:35:56] uh the city attorney for those types of

[1:35:59] things. Uh 62, please.

[1:36:04] Again, note what what is the on the

[1:36:06] third line? Common exceptions. The

[1:36:09] general rule is you can't go into

[1:36:11] executive session. Everything's got to

[1:36:13] be discussed out in public.

[1:36:16] Now, here's the thing, too, and I and I

[1:36:18] want to be fully and completely

[1:36:20] transparent. I will, if anything ever

[1:36:23] happens, I will take on the AG free of

[1:36:26] charge. I think they've got some very

[1:36:28] poor opinion writers. I think they're

[1:36:30] too in some of them are way too

[1:36:32] influenced by politics. Well, what do

[1:36:34] you mean? We have a catchall

[1:36:38] and we've used it for years at the

[1:36:40] bottom that says very clearly the city

[1:36:43] council may go into executive session on

[1:36:46] any agenda item pursuant to 5510712

[1:36:49] to consult with the city attorney about

[1:36:52] that particular item. For years, the AG

[1:36:54] had never addressed it. I think maybe

[1:36:58] year maybe two, there's an AG opinion

[1:37:00] out there that thinks that's not enough.

[1:37:03] I think that is

[1:37:05] one of the poorest legal reasoning and

[1:37:09] rationale I have ever encountered. And I

[1:37:11] and I will tell this to somebody. It's

[1:37:12] recorded. You can show it to the AG. I

[1:37:14] think they should be embarrassed for

[1:37:16] that decision because what you're

[1:37:17] telling me is in the middle of a

[1:37:19] meeting. You could have a very serious

[1:37:21] issue that's on the agenda properly

[1:37:23] posted and a council member goes, "Well,

[1:37:26] crap. What are the legal consequences

[1:37:27] for this?" Well, we didn't specifically

[1:37:29] put it on the agenda and the deadline to

[1:37:31] make a decision is tonight. So, you're

[1:37:33] kind of screwed according to the AG.

[1:37:34] That's crap. No. And I will fight the AG

[1:37:38] free of charge if we're ever challenged

[1:37:40] on that. The council should be

[1:37:43] encouraged encourage to go, "Wait a

[1:37:46] minute. I got legal questions about this

[1:37:49] particular agenda item. We didn't

[1:37:51] specifically say it was going to be for

[1:37:53] attorney, but I don't know how to make a

[1:37:54] decision without knowing the legal

[1:37:56] consequence, and I don't feel

[1:37:57] comfortable doing that in public because

[1:37:59] that's going to give away all my

[1:38:00] thinking, everything I may have on this

[1:38:02] decision.

[1:38:04] That seems to be the poorest public

[1:38:06] policy to say a council can't do that.

[1:38:09] Okay. So, but I want to make everybody

[1:38:11] aware there is a very recent AG opinion

[1:38:14] that says that. I wholeheartedly

[1:38:15] couldn't possibly disagree more uh with

[1:38:18] that. And I think the fact because it's

[1:38:20] it's noticed on the agenda. It says very

[1:38:22] clearly we could go. Now, you don't

[1:38:24] necessarily know, but a person can look

[1:38:26] at that agenda and go, "Oh, that thing

[1:38:28] about buying or selling the fire

[1:38:29] station, that's on the agenda." And then

[1:38:31] at the bottom, they could go get legal

[1:38:32] advice about that. They're aware of

[1:38:34] that. That fits what we talked about.

[1:38:37] People need to have a general idea of

[1:38:40] what's being discussed and what could

[1:38:42] happen. So, there you go. Uh, next one,

[1:38:44] please.

[1:38:50] This is what I wanted Mr. Good to be

[1:38:52] here for.

[1:38:59] Oh, wait. What are you doing, Angela?

[1:39:01] Hold on. Let me read that one. It's not

[1:39:03] as good as the one where the minutes

[1:39:05] where the guy says, you know, it should

[1:39:07] be noticed that every minute is like an

[1:39:08] hour, but this is still pretty good.

[1:39:12] And you notice everybody's winking at

[1:39:13] each other. Okay. So, this is gonna get

[1:39:16] into

[1:39:17] now you may proceed. Angela, thank you

[1:39:19] so much.

[1:39:21] Angela's always having to slow down for

[1:39:23] me. I really appreciate it. So, uh a

[1:39:26] little bit again only those three uh

[1:39:30] provisions can be enforced by the DA,

[1:39:32] the county, or the criminal district

[1:39:33] attorney. That's because there's a most

[1:39:35] DAS have a civil side and a criminal

[1:39:38] side. And so there are potential civil

[1:39:40] penalties and or criminal penalties for

[1:39:43] for uh TOMA. Uh next one please.

[1:39:48] That's what they are. Um

[1:39:51] it's important to understand

[1:39:55] some actions are and it makes a

[1:39:58] difference on how you can enforce

[1:40:00] certain things to know whether an action

[1:40:02] is void or voidable.

[1:40:06] Let me let me try to give an idea. So

[1:40:10] the let's say you got a zoning case and

[1:40:14] that comes up. Let's say that we have

[1:40:19] proper notice 10 days to the PNZ. They

[1:40:21] meet. They got a recommendation. We have

[1:40:23] the council meeting. There's a public

[1:40:25] hearing on the council meeting and uh

[1:40:28] the uh PNZ makes a recommendation and

[1:40:30] the council votes. Then we find out that

[1:40:33] we had a mistake. Not Angela, but we had

[1:40:36] a mistake. There was only 10 days notice

[1:40:39] to the council, not 15 that was

[1:40:41] required. Does that mean that zoning

[1:40:43] ordinance is is void flat on its face?

[1:40:47] Exact. No more. This is no more for you.

[1:40:50] No more for you. Uh but that's exactly

[1:40:52] right. And the reason why is because

[1:40:55] it's passed. What council can then do

[1:40:58] and go, okay, we got a nose 15 days.

[1:41:00] They go back 15 days, they post it, they

[1:41:03] have the the the meeting, they vote on

[1:41:05] it again and passed it. You're fine. You

[1:41:08] don't have to go back and redo the whole

[1:41:10] thing. Now, give an example where it's

[1:41:12] void. Let's say the easiest one is

[1:41:15] annexation. We can't really do it

[1:41:16] anymore, but think back in the days when

[1:41:19] we could annex. One thing is y'all

[1:41:22] understand with annexations it's a

[1:41:24] specific detailed meets and bounds of

[1:41:26] property going and a surveyor can go out

[1:41:29] and go it starts here and the property

[1:41:31] goes around and ends like that. Okay.

[1:41:33] Well, if there's a problem with the

[1:41:35] meets and bounds the detailed this being

[1:41:37] dairy certain track to land out of this

[1:41:39] thing going down to the iron rod at a

[1:41:41] 20° angle northwest from this road blah

[1:41:44] blah blah. That's the meets and bounds.

[1:41:46] If that goes like this but stops here,

[1:41:49] we say that doesn't close and the city

[1:41:52] council passes the ordinance and three

[1:41:54] years later it's determined that it

[1:41:57] didn't close. That action is void. You

[1:42:01] cannot go back and fix it without

[1:42:03] redoing everything. It is void from its

[1:42:07] it's called void avenue initial void

[1:42:09] from the beginning because the council

[1:42:11] didn't have authority

[1:42:13] to annex property without a closing that

[1:42:17] is a void action again the voidable one

[1:42:20] is the procedure was followed but it

[1:42:23] wasn't followed I'm going to say

[1:42:25] accurately or all correctly so you can

[1:42:29] go back and fix that that's an that's an

[1:42:31] example of avoid

[1:42:33] versus avoidable action And those can

[1:42:36] have very very serious

[1:42:39] consequences and differences. Um,

[1:42:43] next please.

[1:42:45] Oh. Oh, go back one. I'm sorry, Angela.

[1:42:47] Go back one more. So, mandamus for

[1:42:51] example, you can go back. Mandamis the

[1:42:54] the ask the court to Mandamis is a is a

[1:42:58] request for a judge to order a

[1:43:01] government official to do or not do

[1:43:03] something. And you can only do it when

[1:43:06] the rules are completely laid out. This

[1:43:10] is why board voidable is important. If,

[1:43:13] for example, you're going to go forward,

[1:43:15] you could probably get a court, I would

[1:43:17] think, at least an injunction against

[1:43:19] the city from enacting and going forward

[1:43:21] on the zoning ordinance because you only

[1:43:23] had 10day notice for council 15. Okay.

[1:43:26] So, they could mandamish you. That's

[1:43:29] arguable, but for sure they can enjoin

[1:43:31] you from effectively carrying out the

[1:43:34] ordinance because you got to go back and

[1:43:36] fix it. The court can't mandamus or

[1:43:39] can't enjoin you from acting out the uh

[1:43:43] annexation ordinance because it was void

[1:43:45] from the beginning. So that is an

[1:43:48] example of why void and voidable and how

[1:43:50] they could play out in our world. Thank

[1:43:52] you, Angela. Next one. Sorry about that.

[1:43:56] Okay. unauthorized again. Um, oh, I took

[1:44:00] it out. I apologize. I took it out in

[1:44:01] another part, but not this one. Now, um,

[1:44:05] the knowing part is now kind of removed.

[1:44:08] If you do this, now we're getting into,

[1:44:11] um,

[1:44:13] I don't know where we are now. Angela's

[1:44:16] got us at like 64 and a half.

[1:44:21] » Uh, yeah, go down.

[1:44:24] Yeah, go down one more actually. See if

[1:44:26] it's what I'm thinking.

[1:44:30] No, we already talked about that one. Go

[1:44:31] down 68. That's about the certified

[1:44:33] agenda and a class B misdemeanor. Ya.

[1:44:35] Go. Will you go down 68, please?

[1:44:42] Okay, here we go. Here we go. This is

[1:44:44] what I want to get into and what Mr.

[1:44:45] Good was talking about. Now,

[1:44:49] now we're getting into and and everybody

[1:44:52] read these because now it really gets a

[1:44:55] bit dicey. It gets a bit it gets a bit

[1:44:57] difficult.

[1:44:59] Is there a violation? And I don't think

[1:45:01] I had this this question. Oh, well, I'm

[1:45:03] wait till everybody reads it real fast.

[1:45:20] Okay, we go at 69. I can't remember if I

[1:45:22] put the question on here or not.

[1:45:29] No, go down one more. I mean, put it on

[1:45:31] here. That's okay.

[1:45:39] Look at that. We're getting close to the

[1:45:41] end, people.

[1:45:45] Okay, this is this is good enough. I

[1:45:46] didn't think I put it on there, but

[1:45:47] okay. So, let me ask you this.

[1:45:50] If Mayor Pro Tim went to the mayor,

[1:45:54] talked to him about, let's use the

[1:45:56] controversial 8.2 last night, say he

[1:45:59] went to the mayor and talked about 8.2.

[1:46:01] Okay. Then he went to council member

[1:46:03] London and he talked about 8.2. And then

[1:46:06] he went to council member Cowry and

[1:46:08] talked about 8.2 from last night. So,

[1:46:11] there was deliberation for for sure.

[1:46:12] They talked about public

[1:46:15] They had a long detailed conversation

[1:46:16] about an item under which they have

[1:46:18] control. Okay. Well, I guess we learned

[1:46:20] from last night they have control over.

[1:46:22] That's story. Did any of those four

[1:46:25] people violate the Open Means Act in the

[1:46:28] scenario I just gave?

[1:46:33] » Who? Okay.

[1:46:36] >> He didn't even say his name. He's like

[1:46:40] » He didn't even say his name. He's like

[1:46:40] >> that dude right there in red.

[1:46:41] » that dude right there in red.

[1:46:41] >> Why are you scooting over?

[1:46:43] » Why are you scooting over?

[1:46:43] Well, this guy already put us in jail

[1:46:45] once.

[1:46:50] » Okay, now careful. In the scenario I

[1:46:53] gave,

[1:46:55] >> did anybody violate the Open Meetings

[1:46:57] » did anybody violate the Open Meetings

[1:46:57] Act? And if so, who?

[1:47:01] Okay.

[1:47:04] » Okay. So, you say nobody.

[1:47:06] >> Okay.

[1:47:08] » Okay.

[1:47:08] >> I'm gonna say

[1:47:10] » I'm gonna say

[1:47:10] >> Okay. Everybody wants to blame you.

[1:47:14] » Okay. Everybody wants to blame you.

[1:47:14] Okay. Really? Why is that?

[1:47:18] >> I wasn't I didn't go I went to one

[1:47:22] » I wasn't I didn't go I went to one

[1:47:22] particular person

[1:47:24] the other person said and so this I'm

[1:47:27] just giving you

[1:47:28] >> the man's got it waking everybody up.

[1:47:33] » the man's got it waking everybody up.

[1:47:33] >> You are the man. That is exactly right.

[1:47:36] » You are the man. That is exactly right.

[1:47:36] But you see how this gets complicated.

[1:47:39] This gets and I'm not kidding about it.

[1:47:41] It gets very complicated. It's very

[1:47:43] detailed. I mean, it it is not easy. So,

[1:47:45] I want y'all to call me at any time. He

[1:47:47] mayor Tim nailed it. If he and that was

[1:47:50] my scenario, he's right. If he had gone

[1:47:52] to the mayor, talked about 8.2,

[1:47:55] then gone to council member Towry and

[1:47:57] said, "Yeah, I was talking to the mayor

[1:47:58] about, you know, 8.2 and council member

[1:48:00] Cowry blah blah blah, and then he had

[1:48:02] gone to council member London and said,

[1:48:03] "Yeah, you know what? I talked to

[1:48:04] council member Towry and the mayor and

[1:48:05] this is what we concluded." And Mr.

[1:48:07] London uh said, "Yeah, you know, okay, I

[1:48:09] kind of agree with you." Then who's

[1:48:10] committed uh a uh a violation of the

[1:48:14] meanings act?

[1:48:16] >> Close. No,

[1:48:17] » Close. No,

[1:48:17] >> not me.

[1:48:18] » not me.

[1:48:18] >> Not him and not him. That's not a

[1:48:20] » Not him and not him. That's not a

[1:48:20] quorum.

[1:48:22] >> But you're on the right track.

[1:48:31] » You got it. It's exactly that simple.

[1:48:34] Just like Mayor Proin said, he can talk

[1:48:36] to every single member of council.

[1:48:39] every single one. As long as he's not

[1:48:42] pulling it and pulling it all together,

[1:48:45] there's not a violation. Now, I will

[1:48:47] tell you, a lot of city attorneys won't

[1:48:50] tell you those types of details because

[1:48:51] they're like, "No, y'all can't talk."

[1:48:53] Again, I don't I don't do it that way. I

[1:48:56] treat y'all like grown-ups. Um I my my

[1:48:59] phone is always available. You can call

[1:49:00] me anytime, midnight, whatever. It

[1:49:02] doesn't matter. Uh and I and I have

[1:49:04] answered that for a lot of people and I

[1:49:05] will because this is a very touchy, you

[1:49:08] know, type subject and so I want

[1:49:10] everybody to feel comfortable in what

[1:49:11] they're doing. Hey, you know what? This

[1:49:12] is what I did. Is it okay? But again,

[1:49:15] that's why we started with what we

[1:49:16] started

[1:49:18] forum.

[1:49:20] Is it something that you uh we have

[1:49:22] control over? Uh yada yada yada. We went

[1:49:24] right down the list. So that's what you

[1:49:26] start thinking. Oh yes.

[1:49:38] mayor.

[1:49:49] » We're actually gonna get into this. He's

[1:49:50] not even here. He's ahead of me.

[1:50:07] I mean, what is your opinion on that?

[1:50:15] » He's pretty well trained. Well, here's

[1:50:17] the thing. It depend. Like most good

[1:50:20] attorneys, I'm going to say it depends.

[1:50:22] If Mr. Mr. Goodwin is posting on great

[1:50:25] meeting last night. Okay. Mr. Goodwin's

[1:50:28] like, "My daughter's the greatest."

[1:50:29] Maybe I had son. My my kid is the

[1:50:32] greatest kid in the world. Okay. You

[1:50:33] don't like that? No. That's I don't care

[1:50:35] if every single council member does

[1:50:36] that.

[1:50:37] >> If Mr. Goodwin said, "Man, I am excited

[1:50:39] » If Mr. Goodwin said, "Man, I am excited

[1:50:39] about voting at the next meeting on item

[1:50:42] 8.4 and saying blah blah blah." And you

[1:50:46] like it. Yeah, I think you violate the

[1:50:48] open meetings act.

[1:50:49] >> So that's again quorum. Is it under your

[1:50:53] » So that's again quorum. Is it under your

[1:50:53] control? But step by step by step going

[1:50:56] down going down the list. And again,

[1:50:59] it's not wrong for you to talk to

[1:51:02] everybody else and get their feeling

[1:51:04] on things. So yeah. Now, what was the

[1:51:07] first did I answer the first part of the

[1:51:08] question? First,

[1:51:25] » okay, now based on

[1:51:26] >> the ones I see a lot is when people say

[1:51:28] » the ones I see a lot is when people say

[1:51:28] what's coming at 5 and 20 or I heard

[1:51:31] this is coming. Does anybody know

[1:51:33] anything? And then all of a sudden

[1:51:35] people start chiming in.

[1:51:36] >> It happens a lot.

[1:51:38] » It happens a lot.

[1:51:38] you see and I see on the HOA page,

[1:51:42] they'll they'll type, hey, I saw this is

[1:51:45] coming up. What does anybody know about

[1:51:47] it? And then and typically you'll see

[1:51:51] at Brian, do you know anything? And I

[1:51:53] don't ever comment. I I don't even I

[1:51:55] don't even I just stay away from those

[1:51:57] conversations.

[1:51:58] >> But now now that we've you go through do

[1:52:01] » But now now that we've you go through do

[1:52:01] can you do you think, hey, you know

[1:52:02] what? I can apply that to the different

[1:52:04] >> Yeah.

[1:52:08] Because in in all serious, look, I know

[1:52:09] a lot of this is dry and boring, so I do

[1:52:11] try to keep y'all entertained, you know,

[1:52:13] as well as teach y'all stuff, but in all

[1:52:15] seriousness, I want to Thank you, Mr.

[1:52:17] Powers. In all seriousness, one thing I

[1:52:20] want to be able to do is if I'm not

[1:52:21] around, you know, I who knows what

[1:52:24] what's going to happen in the future. if

[1:52:25] I'm not around. I want y'all to have the

[1:52:28] tools and the knowledge that you need to

[1:52:31] keep yourself out of trouble and and

[1:52:34] more importantly be able to serve the

[1:52:36] people that elect y'all to be here.

[1:52:39] That's what I want to be able to do is

[1:52:40] give y'all the tools that you need and

[1:52:42] say, "Hey, look, you know what? I can I

[1:52:44] can figure this out. I don't want y'all

[1:52:46] to be on a life rapper on your own. So,

[1:52:47] seriously, call me anytime, okay? But I

[1:52:51] want y'all to also feel comfortable uh

[1:52:53] knowing that, okay, look, I need to be

[1:52:55] careful with what I say or, you know,

[1:52:56] I'm not going to worry about if I I love

[1:52:58] the picnic, I love the barbecue, you

[1:52:59] know, it was great, and I want to tell

[1:53:01] Council Member Goodwin, thanks for

[1:53:02] letting me use your you know, your

[1:53:04] grill, whatever. You know, I'm not going

[1:53:05] to worry about it then because like,

[1:53:06] hey, I got quorum. Is it under control?

[1:53:09] yada yada yada. I got all that stuff in

[1:53:10] place. Um, next one, please. I think

[1:53:14] we're pretty close to being done now.

[1:53:16] Oh, y'all know about that. I do 90day

[1:53:18] 72, please.

[1:53:21] Yeah, if y'all ever want uh the the

[1:53:24] that's just in case y'all want to talk

[1:53:25] to the OG and stuff like that and that's

[1:53:28] for new recordions. Uh and and and I

[1:53:31] always encourage cities are always

[1:53:33] asking me um the reason I have this on

[1:53:35] there, cities are always asking how long

[1:53:37] should we keep records. said, "Look,

[1:53:39] what I think everybody should do, you

[1:53:41] pass an ordinance and you adopt the

[1:53:42] Texas State Library Archives, their

[1:53:45] record retention policy. It's just it's

[1:53:48] easy to follow. You can look at it. You

[1:53:50] know what you can get rid of, when you

[1:53:51] can get rid of, how you get rid of it,

[1:53:52] stuff like that." So, that that pretty

[1:53:54] much wraps it up unless you have

[1:53:57] questions.

[1:54:12] Oh yeah, I probably I didn't cover that.

[1:54:14] So I I should I guess I was

[1:54:20] » So here's the thing. Much like the

[1:54:22] attorney client privilege is held not by

[1:54:26] the attorney. It is not the attorney's

[1:54:28] privilege. It is the client's privilege.

[1:54:31] and only the client can wave it. So the

[1:54:35] point of going back in executive

[1:54:36] session, it is the council's or the PNG,

[1:54:39] whoever does it. It is the council's

[1:54:43] uh privilege. It's not mine. It's not

[1:54:46] for brie's. We can't say anything

[1:54:48] without y'all's permission about what

[1:54:50] happened executive session. Y'all are

[1:54:53] free. Yes. The one guiding rule that

[1:54:57] that I give council when they're asking

[1:54:59] about what you know, talk about

[1:55:01] is my question I always ask is hey if

[1:55:04] you're asking me about whether or not

[1:55:06] you should talk to so and so about

[1:55:09] whatever is my thing is what was your

[1:55:11] point of going into executive session?

[1:55:13] If you're going to go into executive

[1:55:15] session and then just tell the whole

[1:55:17] world then why didn't you why did you

[1:55:19] waste our time going back in there and

[1:55:20] doing that? Why don't we just have it

[1:55:22] out here in the front? That's that's

[1:55:24] where I'm coming from.

[1:55:27] >> But

[1:55:27] » But

[1:55:27] >> is that is that is that answer the

[1:55:29] » is that is that is that answer the

[1:55:30] practice? you don't you don't want to

[1:55:32] but if you did you're not in trouble

[1:55:34] right a lot of people will try to say oh

[1:55:37] you're in trouble for talking about

[1:55:38] executive session

[1:55:41] >> I would be Angela would be you know

[1:55:43] » I would be Angela would be you know

[1:55:43] somebody for reason

[1:55:46] >> y'all it is y'all's privilege so y'all

[1:55:48] » y'all it is y'all's privilege so y'all

[1:55:48] would not be Somebody's attend

[1:56:19] hour.

[1:56:37] I know I've tried to since I've come on

[1:56:41] like

[1:56:42] >> I try to and anyone in here will tell

[1:56:45] » I try to and anyone in here will tell

[1:56:45] you I'm usually like hey

[1:56:47] back

[1:56:49] I'll tell you where it's

[1:56:57] session number.

[1:57:12] » Yeah.

[1:57:19] Let me ask you, let me ask you a

[1:57:21] question, Mark. Remember when I first

[1:57:22] came on as mayor and I held executive

[1:57:25] session from 5:45 to 6:15

[1:57:30] and I had that council at the time did

[1:57:32] not like that and that's why we have to

[1:57:35] stop that. I actually like rock wall

[1:57:37] does it. I can't remember what the other

[1:57:39] city does. We do it we have executive

[1:57:41] session before 6:30. So that way when we

[1:57:44] hit 6:30, we're in front of people and

[1:57:47] and I I have zero issue going back to

[1:57:51] that whole council. I mean, I can't we

[1:57:53] can't do that decision tonight, but I

[1:57:55] can put it on the agenda to ask the

[1:57:57] council if they want to do it. I'll be

[1:57:58] happy to go back to the 5:45 to 6:15

[1:58:01] executive session. And the reason I like

[1:58:03] it is because it was a time. Hey, at

[1:58:05] 6:15 we're going back out there because

[1:58:07] you want to be saying hi to people,

[1:58:09] talking to the people, greeting the

[1:58:10] people that are coming to this meeting

[1:58:12] so they know they're important. At 6:30

[1:58:14] starts,

[1:58:23] » it's supposed to be. That's why I call

[1:58:25] them exceptions. And I got to give the

[1:58:27] mayor props. In 26 years of doing this,

[1:58:30] he's probably one of the top mayors I've

[1:58:32] seen about getting in their executive

[1:58:34] session, getting the business done, and

[1:58:36] getting out. I mean, he really he really

[1:58:38] he really does a very good job of doing

[1:58:40] that.

[1:58:49] Right.

[1:58:59] That's called a certified agenda.

[1:59:02] >> A certified agenda. And we do that after

[1:59:04] » A certified agenda. And we do that after

[1:59:04] every executive session. Angela can give

[1:59:07] you and P&Z would use the same one. And

[1:59:10] it's just and I created it and I use it

[1:59:12] for any city I represent. They change if

[1:59:14] they want to, but I think Angela likes

[1:59:16] it. And it's just the the template of

[1:59:18] what we would use for a certified agenda

[1:59:21] for our executive sessions. If you

[1:59:22] you're welcome to look at it. Yeah.

[1:59:32] » I think he's saying when we come back

[1:59:33] outside, should we be saying what we

[1:59:38] >> Oh,

[1:59:38] » Oh,

[1:59:38] >> give like a little brief. Give a little

[1:59:40] » give like a little brief. Give a little

[1:59:40] brief.

[1:59:43] >> You're not required to. You don't have

[1:59:45] » You're not required to. You don't have

[1:59:45] to take any action after executive

[1:59:47] session. The governing body doesn't.

[1:59:48] They don't have to take any action. In

[1:59:50] fact, what I always recommend that the

[1:59:53] mayor do is when we come out of

[1:59:54] executive session, go, "Hey, is there

[1:59:56] any action as a result of executive

[1:59:58] session?" If somebody says, "Yeah, I

[2:00:00] want to make a motion to approve the

[2:00:01] contract between, you know, city and

[2:00:03] whatever or if there's nothing and

[2:00:05] everybody is quiet, the mayor just moves

[2:00:07] on."

[2:00:07] >> Well, usually

[2:00:10] » Well, usually

[2:00:10] no.

[2:00:11] >> I'll say no action was taken. I know

[2:00:13] » I'll say no action was taken. I know

[2:00:13] what it because I might say, you know,

[2:00:15] we talked a little bit about this, no

[2:00:17] actions taken

[2:00:18] >> without

[2:00:19] » without

[2:00:19] >> without specifics. I'm I'm pretty

[2:00:21] » without specifics. I'm I'm pretty

[2:00:21] general, which is

[2:00:24] >> which is why I like to to Mark's point,

[2:00:27] » which is why I like to to Mark's point,

[2:00:27] there's only certain reasons to go into

[2:00:29] executive session and I I really try to

[2:00:31] adhere to that because I I I am not a

[2:00:34] fan of executive session, but I

[2:00:35] understand a need for it, which I guess

[2:00:38] now I will ask for reason to make sure

[2:00:40] it's on the next council meeting that we

[2:00:42] discuss. Do we want to go back to

[2:00:44] pre meeting from 5:45 to 6:15 and then

[2:00:48] we can have that opportunity for

[2:00:50] executive session and then we are

[2:00:52] because my whole thing is in front of

[2:00:54] the people that's they that's what they

[2:00:55] want us to be we're not the government

[2:00:57] they are we just be out here talking to

[2:00:58] them so

[2:01:06] you know we'll put it on the next one

[2:01:08] and we can discuss

[2:01:32] Maybe we maybe we have to be better as

[2:01:35] far as

[2:01:36] you know our new city manager So when we

[2:01:40] have the agendas that we looking at that

[2:01:42] and making sure you know if there's a

[2:01:45] reason or something to go on executive

[2:01:47] session we're going into it and we we

[2:01:49] have that laid out

[2:01:51] >> and then that way it's just it's not

[2:01:52] » and then that way it's just it's not

[2:01:52] abuse because I mean you know I will I

[2:01:57] will say there's not one executive

[2:01:58] session that I've called so far that

[2:02:00] I've regretted the only ones I have been

[2:02:03] in somewhere this long and I'm just like

[2:02:04] why we're talking in circles and you

[2:02:07] know I am

[2:02:08] Once we say it twice that we're going

[2:02:10] back out, we done disgusting. Let's go.

[2:02:13] And I'll try to tighten that up. I don't

[2:02:16] like it back there.

[2:02:30] We have pretty robust policy

[2:02:32] discussions.

[2:02:46] approaches.

[2:02:49] But then come to

City Council & Planning & Zoning Joint Training Session - 24 Sep 2025

Transcript