[0:02] Okay.

[0:03] Good evening ladies and gentlemen.

[0:04] Welcome to the zoning Board of Adjustment

[0:06] for May 21st, 2026.

[0:08] Please rise for the Pledge of Allegiance.

[0:11] Pledge Allegiance to the flag of the United States, states

[0:14] of America to three public award to stands,

[0:18] one Nation under liberty and justice for all.

[0:27] All right, thank you everybody.

[0:28] And just to begin on our my far left,

[0:32] please introduce ourselves,

[0:35] Anthony Henry Michael Donlin, Mr.

[0:38] Trip, crystal Morin,

[0:40] Allen Perkins, chair Gus Bo Biba.

[0:43] Jim Dietzel, Jason Ney.

[0:45] And we have Code enforcement Officer Carrie Owen with us

[0:49] and our clerk would be Eileen Boudreaux.

[0:53] How'd I do? All right. Excellent.

[0:56] Got all everybody's names through tonight.

[0:58] Alright, before proceeding, please shut off all cell phones,

[1:02] iPhones, anything that could create a distraction

[1:04] of the proceedings in the event of an emergency,

[1:06] please exit to the rear of the room.

[1:09] And these proceedings are audio video recorded

[1:12] and scheduled to terminate at 10:00 PM as they always do.

[1:19] Besides that, let's get into our agenda.

[1:22] The election of officers is,

[1:24] was first on the agenda, but Mr.

[1:27] Corbett is not here. He'll be tardy.

[1:29] So a motion to put that to the end of the meeting please.

[1:35] I motion. Thank you Mr. Ani. Second. Thank you.

[1:39] All in favor a aye. Aye. Thank you. All right.

[1:42] First case up is 22 dash 1 34, request for extension. Mr.

[1:47] Donlan, you sit on this, please? Yes, sir. All right.

[1:51] Is the applicant present?

[2:02] Gentlemen, this is just brief

[2:04] but kind of a formality if you'd like to go ahead

[2:09] and tell us what's going on with your project.

[2:12] Yeah, so we need to fulfill some requirements for town

[2:16] of Auburn before we are able

[2:19] to pursue a building permit with Town and Derry.

[2:24] We've made progress. It took about a year

[2:26] and a half to get the

[2:30] driveway plan designed and so forth.

[2:33] And then we had several meetings with Town of Auburn

[2:37] planning and we then had to delineate the wetlands.

[2:42] So we did that and we also hired an attorney

[2:46] to draft the, the shared driveway agreement.

[2:50] So the only thing that is pretty much outstanding

[2:54] for Auburn is to get the agreement signed

[2:59] and registered at the County of Deeds.

[3:01] And that's pretty much it. Then we can get that final letter

[3:05] to then send to dairy and take it from there.

[3:10] Is the wetlands engineering due to Auburn or dairy?

[3:15] It was requested by Auburn

[3:16] and I am not sure if we need to for dairy,

[3:20] but I mean, it's already done, so.

[3:22] Okay. Just contributes to your delay? Correct. Alright.

[3:25] But you're in process and it sounds like

[3:28] Ms. Owen, anything there from you?

[3:30] Nothing. Just to kinda re reiterate on this case,

[3:32] to remind everybody this previously was granted a variance

[3:36] June 2nd, 2022

[3:38] and was granted a two year extension, June 6th, 2024.

[3:43] And obviously things are still underway and in process.

[3:46] Okay, very good as the Stated. Good, thank you.

[3:48] Yep. Anybody have any comments before we move forward?

[3:52] Questions, concerns? No. All right. Very good.

[3:55] Okay, well let's motion this.

[3:57] Ms. Warren, Warren, sorry.

[4:02] It's okay. Found to happen in the night.

[4:06] Would you like to motion on this, please?

[4:08] I do. I make a motion on case number

[4:12] two two dash 1 34

[4:14] to grant a variance extension

[4:18] that was granted on June 22nd, 2022 to the terms

[4:22] of Article three, section 1 65 dash nine

[4:27] of the town of Dairy zoning ordinance

[4:30] and New Hampshire RSA

[4:32] 6 7 4 4 1 to allow the construction

[4:37] of a single family dwelling on the property,

[4:40] which does not have frontage on a town approved street

[4:43] parcel id 1 4 0 2 1 zoned LMDR

[4:48] as presented with the following conditions, one Subject

[4:52] to obtaining astate town permits and inspections.

[4:56] And that concludes the reading of the motion.

[4:58] I need a second. Second.

[5:00] Thank you Mr. Donlin. Just a quick finding of fact.

[5:04] The applicants obviously have been in process

[5:09] development following the intentions of, of the,

[5:13] of planning layout for this project.

[5:15] Sounds like there

[5:17] that their delays are no fault of their own.

[5:20] Anybody have any amendments or anything to add to that?

[5:24] Seeing no gestures there?

[5:26] Moving this forward for a vote

[5:28] motion on the floor then seconded.

[5:31] All in favor of moving this for a vote? Say aye. Aye. Aye.

[5:34] Any opposed?

[5:42] Mr. Donlin? Yes. Mr. Trip?

[5:45] I vote yes. Ms. Morin? Yes.

[5:52] Who am I? Oh, Mr. Dietzel. Yes. Okay.

[5:55] And the chair will make it five to zero. Unanimous.

[5:57] So congratulations gentlemen.

[5:59] You're all set on that extension. You've got two years.

[6:02] Thank you very much. Thank you.

[6:03] All right, have a good evening.

[6:11] Next up is case number 26 dash one 14

[6:17] promised land survey on behalf of Craig and Jennifer.

[6:28] Who are they? What's their last name?

[6:33] Pea. Oh, Peabody. I'm sorry. Alright,

[6:36] Are those folks here?

[6:38] Anybody from You're Mr. Peabody?

[6:42] No, I'm, my name is Brandon from Promised Land Survey.

[6:45] Oh, very good. Okay. That's,

[6:47] we've requested that that be tabled.

[6:48] The client asked.

[6:50] So it, it was in the agenda that it was asked

[6:54] to be tabled, but Yep.

[6:56] I didn't know if it had become official or not.

[6:57] I'm not prepared to present it tonight.

[6:59] No, no, that's, that's fine. We got it. Just wasn't sure.

[7:03] The names always get me. Yeah.

[7:05] Alright, so we're looking for an extension there. Mr.

[7:11] Oba, would you sit for this please? I, Mr. Jeff? Yeah.

[7:15] Anybody have any qu comments before we read the motion? No.

[7:21] Alright. Very good. Mrs.

[7:23] Morn, would you read the motion for this please?

[7:26] Just to table it? Yes, please.

[7:32] I make a motion on case number two six dash four

[7:36] to table the meeting until the next meeting.

[7:39] June 4th, 2026.

[7:42] And that concludes the reading

[7:43] of the motion. I need a second.

[7:45] Second. All right.

[7:47] I don't see a reason for a finding

[7:49] of fact this is a date certain moving it forward.

[7:52] So motion's been made and seconded.

[7:57] All in favor of votes? Aye. Aye. Aye. Any opposed? Mr.

[8:01] O Bimba?

[8:03] Yes. Okay. Mr. Trip?

[8:06] Yes. Mr. Mrs. Morin? I'm sorry.

[8:11] Yes. And Mr. Dietzel?

[8:16] Yes. And chair will make that unanimous as well.

[8:20] So we'll see you on 6 4 26. Okay. Thank you.

[8:35] Case number 26 dash one 10.

[8:38] Michelle Lamont, Laina and John Lamont.

[8:48] Mr. Dani, would you sit on this please? Yes, sir.

[8:59] You folks are joint owners on the property or single?

[9:03] No, technically I own it. I'm sorry. On

[9:06] The mortgage it's me. Okay.

[9:07] It's not But we're married. It's not

[9:09] Joint.

[9:10] Huh? It's not joint? No. Okay.

[9:17] You are married? Yes, obviously. Okay. Good enough. Alright.

[9:30] A lot of moving pieces this evening

[9:32] as you may have witnessed from the prior meeting.

[9:35] Alright, so you have your application there.

[9:38] I'm gonna have you read it for the record, okay.

[9:40] And then we'll just ask you some questions.

[9:43] So read the application that I,

[9:45] 'cause there's all different, what is it?

[9:47] The one through should

[9:49] Have nine points on it.

[9:53] Have dairy application for exception.

[9:57] Yeah, it's there application is that

[10:05] you must have the following.

[10:07] So it's not that I don't know what it's, oh,

[10:12] the dwelling is his or her legal.

[10:15] So what, the thing that begins with number

[10:16] one is should this document right here?

[10:19] Yeah. So number one is the

[10:20] applicant claims of the dwelling.

[10:22] That's the first sentence there for number one unit as his

[10:25] or her legal residence.

[10:26] Yes. That's the application.

[10:28] Okay. All right. The re the residential use of,

[10:30] We're gonna ask your applicant to read. Okay.

[10:33] I thought we both kind of were. Okay.

[10:36] So the application claims as a dwelling unit as his

[10:39] or her legal residence.

[10:41] The residential use was established by the applicant prior

[10:44] to the filing of the requested for a special exemption.

[10:48] It was established December 18th, 2018.

[10:52] The purpose, the purpose of the house business will not be

[10:57] in offensive to the neighborhood by reason of the admission

[11:01] of odor, fumes, dust, smoke, vibration, noise

[11:05] or other, or other cause.

[11:07] No, the home business will be conducted within the resident

[11:10] structure of other existing structure

[11:14] or other existing structure.

[11:15] It will not exceed 25% of the finish

[11:18] and living area of the dwelling.

[11:20] Yes. The home

[11:21] and business was use will not change the resident's

[11:25] character of the dwelling or property?

[11:27] No. Not more than one sign

[11:30] or other advertising device will be displayed on the

[11:33] property and it will not exceed

[11:34] three square feet of service.

[11:36] Yes. Not more than one person.

[11:41] Not res, not resided in the dwelling unit will be employed

[11:44] on the premises at the same time.

[11:45] Total number of non-resident employees is zero

[11:49] sufficient off street parking will be

[11:51] provided for employees, clients,

[11:52] and customers where the lot, where the lot size permits,

[11:55] the pocket will not be

[11:57] provided within 25 feet of the front of the lot line

[12:02] nor within 10 feet of the side of the rail.

[12:04] Lot line must provide sketch shown pocket. Yes.

[12:10] Not more than one home business use will be

[12:13] conducted on the property?

[12:14] Yes.

[12:20] Did you provide a sketch for your parking?

[12:24] I believe I did. Okay.

[12:30] Is right in on the lot, the lot size I see

[12:34] Right in the thing.

[12:35] Yeah. So you, you provided the copy of the site plan? I did,

[12:39] Yes. Okay.

[12:41] Alright. Any questions from anybody on the board?

[12:45] I seeing nobody wanna ask?

[12:50] Well, guess, is this gonna be by appointment only?

[12:54] It is by appointment only.

[12:57] So that you, you are working hours are, are dependent

[13:01] Upon on nine to five What? Nine to five by nine

[13:04] To five? Yes. All right.

[13:05] That's good. Monday through Friday? Yeah,

[13:07] It is correct.

[13:08] And, and you have parking available on, on the property

[13:12] Driveway parking? Yes.

[13:14] Driveway parking? Yep. Very nice. Thank you.

[13:17] Anybody else? Mr. No. Oh,

[13:23] Mr.

[13:25] Ani, anything? Not at this moment.

[13:28] Okay, Mr. Omba? All

[13:30] Set.

[13:31] Mr. Henry? I'm

[13:33] All set.

[13:34] Thank you. Okay. Anything else you wanna share

[13:37] with us other than the script you had to read?

[13:40] No. Okay. All right.

[13:44] Oh, I don't see any problems here so far.

[13:48] Let me just make a call to public. Okay?

[13:50] So if anybody comes up, you'll have, has anything to say

[13:52] that you'll have an opportunity to rebut if it's

[13:54] for you or against you, okay?

[13:56] Okay. At this point, this will be an opportunity for anybody

[13:59] that wishes to speak in support of this application

[14:03] to come forward and seeing nobody arise, anybody wish

[14:08] to speak in opposition to this,

[14:10] this would be your opportunity to come forward.

[14:13] Looks like you folks are unscathed here.

[14:18] If you don't have anything else to say, add, take a motion,

[14:22] go into deliberation, please. So

[14:24] Moved.

[14:25] All right, I'll second, second please. Thank you. Mrs.

[14:29] Mor has a second. All in favor

[14:33] of deliberation, say aye. Aye.

[14:35] Aye. Aye. Any opposed? All right.

[14:39] Aye, anybody have anything they wanna start off

[14:41] with in regards to this?

[14:44] Well, I guess I, I did have

[14:46] probably a couple more things to ask.

[14:47] I should have asked what the days

[14:50] of operation should have been.

[14:51] They were nice enough to tell me that the hours

[14:55] were nine to five.

[14:57] I, I interjected with that piggybacked.

[14:59] And that was Monday through Friday.

[15:01] Monday through Friday? Yep.

[15:02] Alright. Well thank you for

[15:06] Piggyback.

[15:07] Covering my, my back. It's All right. Anybody else?

[15:12] I believe this is a permitted use.

[15:15] She's a professional

[15:18] and I believe she meets all nine criteria.

[15:22] I really don't see any problem with this.

[15:24] Okay. Very good. Thank you Mr. Dietzel. Mr.

[15:27] Dani, you're all set.

[15:30] I would just agree with him.

[15:31] It fits in the, the lot plot it fits in the house.

[15:36] It also fits on the lot. I don't see an issue. Okay.

[15:39] With any of the criteria.

[15:43] Lemme find.

[15:52] All right, let's structure the motion

[15:55] subject to obtaining all.

[15:57] Well, sorry, I skipped you Mrs. Owen.

[16:00] I knew I was forgetting something.

[16:02] Did you want to add anything here?

[16:05] There's not much to add. Obviously.

[16:08] We, we reviewed the size of the room in comparison

[16:10] to the overall home and meet's the requirements.

[16:13] We understand that there's parking in the driveway.

[16:15] I just wanna mention that if a sign is requested,

[16:18] we'd be requiring a separate sign permit in the future.

[16:22] Very good. Thank you. Thank you. Alright.

[16:27] Structuring the motions of the town's state

[16:29] and town permits and inspections.

[16:31] Anybody else have a condition they want to put on this?

[16:36] Seeing no gestures. All right, good enough.

[16:38] Well then let's take a motion come out.

[16:41] Actually, let's make sure we specify the hours there.

[16:45] Number two would be hours of operation

[16:50] Monday through Friday, nine to five.

[16:58] Okay, that's appointment only. I'm sorry. Again,

[17:01] Appointment only Adam.

[17:03] No, I I I'm not gonna say that

[17:05] because we're, we've indicated what the hours

[17:08] of operation are permitted for.

[17:10] So I, whether it's appointment only or just people walking

[17:14] and I'll leave that to the discretion.

[17:16] Obviously if parking becomes an issue then

[17:21] it gets dealt with in a different manner.

[17:26] Now, since it's a special exception, it

[17:29] it sunsets with the owner.

[17:32] It does. Yes. Yep.

[17:37] All set. Alright, take a motion. Come on. Deliberation.

[17:41] So moved. I'll second.

[17:43] Mr. Ani has a second. All in favor say aye. Aye. Aye.

[17:47] Any opposed? All right. Mr.

[17:51] Umm, you have a motion to read?

[17:53] I do. Thank you. I make a motion on case number two six

[17:57] dash zero Michelle Le Madina

[18:01] to grant a special exception as

[18:04] provided in Article six, section 1 65

[18:08] dash four eight A, one of the town

[18:12] of dairy zoning ordinance to allow the operation

[18:15] of a wig salon at the residence.

[18:19] Parcel ID 0 9 0 4 9 dash

[18:23] 0 0 1.

[18:25] Zoned LDR as presented

[18:27] with the following conditions, we have two.

[18:31] One subject

[18:32] to obtaining outstate in-town permits and inspections.

[18:36] Two. The hours of operation will be Monday through Friday,

[18:39] 9:00 AM to 5:00 PM And

[18:41] that concludes the reading of the motion. I need a second.

[18:44] Second. I put that motion on the floor.

[18:50] We're gonna go with the finding of fact

[18:55] the applicant is requesting special exception

[18:57] to allow the operation of a wig salon at the residence.

[19:01] The property is located in the low density

[19:03] residential zoning district.

[19:05] The salon will operate within an existing 166 square foot

[19:10] room on the first floor of the home.

[19:12] If a sign is requested, permit is required.

[19:15] Anybody have any addendums to add to that?

[19:18] Seeing no gestures. Okay.

[19:20] All in favor of moving this motion for a vote. Say aye. Aye.

[19:24] Aye. Aye. Any opposed? All right, Mr. Dietzel? Yes.

[19:29] Mr. Tripp?

[19:31] I vote yes. I find

[19:32] that the applicants have met all the criteria

[19:35] of the special exception.

[19:37] Mrs. Mor chair vote Yes.

[19:41] Mr. Dani? I vote yes.

[19:44] And the chair will make that unanimous five to zero.

[19:46] So congratulations. You're all set.

[19:48] Anybody agreed by this has 30 days, bring attention back

[19:51] to the board after that recourse will be superior court.

[19:54] But I think where there's no

[19:57] opposition here this evening

[19:59] and all butters have been notified, you should be safe.

[20:02] Okay. Great. Thank you. Have a good evening.

[20:07] Next up is case number 26 1 11.

[20:11] This is promised land survey representing s

[20:14] and t Trust Tracy and Steven Lannan.

[20:18] Mr. Chair, I'm gonna recuse myself on this case.

[20:21] I have a personal relationship with the landowner.

[20:24] Very good. Mr. Donlin and Mr.

[20:29] Dani, would you sit on this case please? Yes,

[20:31] Sir.

[20:32] Yes sir.

[20:33] All right. And good evening. Good evening.

[20:37] Promised land survey. Yep.

[20:38] Brandon Wing from promised Land survey,

[20:40] what would you like me to do first?

[20:42] Introduce it or read through the application.

[20:47] Hang on a sec

[20:52] wing, correct?

[20:53] Yes, sir. WING. Write it down. Alright.

[20:57] All right. So why don't we just start typical

[20:59] with the reading of the application. Okay.

[21:02] Okay. Go right to the points is that, that

[21:07] Criteria is fine.

[21:08] If you want to introduce it in the, the face page

[21:10] of the application, what you're doing, that's fine as well.

[21:12] I'll just skip to the points if that's okay. That's fine.

[21:15] The variance will not be contrary to the public interest

[21:17] because Whitney's Grove Road,

[21:20] I wrote Whitney Grove Road in a lot of places,

[21:22] as you'll notice, and I I it's written Whitney's

[21:27] and a lot of online information

[21:29] and Whitney, so I'll try to amend it to Whitney's.

[21:33] Whitney's Grove Road already serves as the only access

[21:37] for several dwellings in the neighborhood.

[21:39] And no new access roads are proposed.

[21:42] The spirit of the ordinance is observed

[21:45] because the proposed use, which is a residential dwelling,

[21:48] is consistent with the allowable uses

[21:50] for the LDR zoning district.

[21:53] We are not asking for relief of any dimensional

[21:55] or use requirements.

[21:57] Substantial justice is done

[21:59] because the existing lot

[22:00] of record is currently accessible over

[22:03] and across the existing roadway

[22:05] and cannot be accessed via any other route.

[22:09] The values of surrounding properties are not diminished

[22:11] because new construction homes invariably add aesthetic

[22:15] value to a neighborhood,

[22:17] but they also benefit the local real estate market

[22:19] by increasing the property values

[22:21] for comparative market market analysis,

[22:25] literal enforcement of the provisions

[22:28] of the ordinance would result in an unnecessary hardship.

[22:31] A for purposes of this subparagraph unnecessary hardship

[22:34] means that owing to special conditions of the property

[22:38] that diminish it from other properties in the area,

[22:42] lower eye, no fair

[22:43] and substantial relationship exists

[22:46] between the general public purposes

[22:47] of the ordinance provision

[22:49] and the specific application of

[22:50] that provision to the property.

[22:53] The special condition of this property is

[22:55] that it is landlocked and has

[22:57] its only access over Whitney's Grove Road,

[23:00] which is not an approved public street

[23:05] And lower I two i.

[23:08] The proposed use is a reasonable one as we see it.

[23:12] This is not only a reasonable request,

[23:13] but a necessary one as Whitney's Grove Road is the intended

[23:16] and only access to the subject parcel.

[23:20] And just back you up your written application on that

[23:24] five, that I section you had said, which is

[23:30] not an approved, your application says

[23:34] is an approved public street,

[23:35] but that's not the case, correct

[23:38] It, correct? I'm I'm

[23:40] What?

[23:41] The record record. I don't see what you're talking about,

[23:41] but I probably have a typo in there.

[23:43] Yeah, just the bottom of Wendy's.

[23:45] Yeah, The bottom line on this F first

[23:48] Page.

[23:49] Okay. Oh yeah. It is not an approved public

[23:51] street. That is correct.

[23:53] So let the record reflect that change on that application.

[23:57] Alright. Please proceed.

[24:05] Okay. So the,

[24:07] I'll just read my introduction if that's okay.

[24:10] The purpose of this application is to request a variance

[24:13] to the terms of article three, section 1 65 dash nine,

[24:17] which corresponds to the general court statute

[24:20] RSA 6 74 41 IC one.

[24:25] That statute grants local governing body the jurisdiction

[24:29] to authorize the issuance of a building permit on private

[24:32] or other non town approved highways and rights of way.

[24:36] We are requesting this variance to allow the construction

[24:39] of a dwelling and garage on map 15 lot 16 dash three.

[24:46] The lot is subsized by the current zoning ordinance,

[24:49] but is a pre-existing non-conforming lot

[24:51] of record created in 1970, which is prior to the adoption

[24:56] of the current zoning ordinance.

[24:57] Even though the lot is subsized, we're not looking

[25:00] for any relief of any of the setbacks

[25:01] as there a sufficient area to build a dwelling and garage.

[25:05] The owners purchased this lot with the intent

[25:07] of building a house for their daughter and her family.

[25:09] The dwelling will be serviced

[25:11] by private onsite well and septic.

[25:13] And I've received state shoreline shoreland permit

[25:16] and construction approval for a septic system.

[25:20] The parcel currently has access to

[25:22] and from Island Pond Road via Whitney Whitney's Grove Road,

[25:25] and there are deeded access

[25:26] and flowage rights which date back to 1929

[25:32] when Arlington Mills granted the parcel to William Chase.

[25:35] Whitney's Grove Road provides access

[25:37] to all the abutting lots, including the parcel

[25:39] that's immediately to the east of this our subject parcel,

[25:43] which was granted the same variance we're requesting on

[25:46] January 8th of this year.

[25:50] I understand that there were concerns voiced by some

[25:53] of the abutters about which condition

[25:55] and upkeep of the existing traveled way.

[25:57] I understand those concerns and truly sympathize with them.

[26:01] However, I do wanna re reiterate

[26:04] that we are not creating any new lots.

[26:06] This subject lot was created nearly 56 years ago.

[26:09] So it is a legal lot of record with ample room to build

[26:11] what we're proposing and it does have deeded rights

[26:14] to you as the existing road.

[26:17] And that's, that's all I have by way of introduction

[26:19] and I'm happy to take any questions.

[26:21] Could you replay that January, did you say January 8th?

[26:25] Yes. Okay. And it seemed like

[26:28] this had some familiarity to it.

[26:30] Yeah. When

[26:34] that came in, was it under the current owner

[26:38] When, in January 8th?

[26:41] I don't, I don't remember who, who owned that one.

[26:44] I haven't looked at the deed for transfer. So

[26:46] I, I have, at the time of my submittal,

[26:51] my application submittal,

[26:54] I have Helen Russell Protection Trust.

[26:57] Okay. I don't, I don't know if it's changed hand since.

[27:04] Is that under purchase and sale,

[27:07] The one to the east? I, I'm not sure if it,

[27:09] So is this the same property that was?

[27:11] No. I see. Okay. That's what I was looking for. Clarity.

[27:13] Oh no, I'm sorry. Fair enough.

[27:15] The one to the east, the property of the east

[27:17] received a variance for exactly

[27:20] what we're requesting tonight.

[27:22] So are you looking for a travel lane for the same,

[27:25] same corridor that the prior application was?

[27:28] It's the same, yeah.

[27:30] Existing Whitney's Grove Road, it's a private road

[27:32] and it's, it's access to this property as well.

[27:41] Any questions from anybody on the board

[27:43] just to keep things rolling?

[27:56] I have a question. Yes. Mr. Trip.

[27:58] So Whitney's Grove Road is a private road. Yes.

[28:03] Which means you probably need an easement.

[28:06] No, there's there deeded rights already exist.

[28:11] Not, not title but rights.

[28:12] So the access is already granted to the people

[28:16] who use it.

[28:19] So it is a deeded easement even though there's not

[28:21] necessarily any math on it.

[28:23] It's a deeded right of way. Okay.

[28:25] There's, there are access rights over it. So

[28:28] It's, it's it's a shared right of way.

[28:30] Yes. Okay. Thank you.

[28:34] Just to be clear, the shared driveway is starting when it

[28:38] branches off of Whitney Grove Road.

[28:40] Is that what I'm understanding from the survey?

[28:47] You're looking at the plan, right?

[28:49] The, the words that say existing access, yes.

[28:53] That goes to my client's home property right there.

[28:58] And then ano another abutting property.

[29:01] And we are proposing to branch off of Whitney's Grove there.

[29:04] So to be clear, there, there's no, there's no court or,

[29:08] or right of way that exists on Whitney's Grove Road.

[29:11] It's just a, it's, it is where it is.

[29:14] It's where it's been for many, many years

[29:17] and there's rights to pass over it,

[29:19] but there's no math like there are on

[29:21] all the streets around here.

[29:23] So it's a, it's not a a right of way that's definable,

[29:29] it's, it's deeded rights over an existing way.

[29:37] Tell you what, let's get staff report.

[29:39] Ms. Owen, you wanna help us out with some clarity here

[29:42] as well as the status of Whitney Grove Road?

[29:45] Sure. Thank you. As the applicant stated,

[29:48] they're requesting a variance to allow construction

[29:51] of a single family dwelling on a lot which does not have

[29:54] frontage on a town approved public street.

[29:56] This is a preexisting non-conforming lot of record

[30:00] with frontage on Whitney's Grove Road,

[30:02] which is a private Class six

[30:04] road not maintained by the town.

[30:07] The property is located in the low density residential

[30:09] zoning district, which requires a minimum 200 feet

[30:12] of frontage along an approved public street.

[30:15] Therefore, the variance is being requested this

[30:17] evening if approved.

[30:20] As the applicant stated,

[30:21] the future dwelling would be serviced by private well

[30:24] and private septic.

[30:26] As the law states today, per RSA 6 74 41,

[30:31] a notice of waiver of municipal liability

[30:33] and responsibility must be recorded with the deed as well

[30:37] as town council authorization

[30:39] to issue the building permit if approved.

[30:42] Based on the plan layout on the proposed plan

[30:46] that we have in front of us this evening,

[30:49] I believe a shoreland permit would be required

[30:50] to construct the proposed deach garage

[30:54] and then appropriate permits

[30:56] and inspections would be required as normal.

[30:59] So for this lot,

[31:00] as the applicant was stating this is an existing deeded

[31:03] access, similar to what we had witnessed for the property

[31:07] to the west, the way

[31:09] that Whitney's Grove is right now is it's,

[31:11] it's a gravel drive, you know,

[31:14] it's a one-way access pretty much in private street.

[31:17] So this deeded access allows, it's basically at the corner

[31:22] of their lot, but allows the access through their lot

[31:24] to access 17 and continue on to the lot to the west as well.

[31:30] And I think that's what I was looking for to Mr.

[31:33] Tripp's question, which was that this,

[31:35] that Whitney's Grove Road is, is class six and I Correct.

[31:38] I think I was trying to get a handle on that. Anything else?

[31:42] That is it. Thank you.

[31:44] Any questions from the board on that?

[31:46] So what kind of frontage does it have on Whitney Road?

[31:52] It does, it, it, I know

[31:54] Whitney Road's not an official

[31:55] Right. I'm just trying to figure out the,

[31:57] It's, It's, if, if you want, we can direct that

[32:00] to Mr. Wing.

[32:01] Okay. It has essentially a point of access.

[32:06] It has, like I mentioned, it's not a real right of way.

[32:11] So it, it just has access across that property.

[32:15] It is not defined or clear at all in the deeds.

[32:19] So it has access from Whitney Grove over

[32:23] and across Whitney's Grove and to it Yes.

[32:28] But like what's, but as far as frontage Yes, no frontage.

[32:33] It doesn't have frontage on it really.

[32:35] It just has access to and from it.

[32:38] So the frontage I, I think could be argued it's,

[32:42] the frontage may be as wide as the, the proposed driveway

[32:45] or, or whatever you might wanna say.

[32:48] So just for clarity, the application is

[32:51] to allow the construction of a single family dwelling on, on

[32:57] that does not have frontage on a town approved road.

[33:00] Yeah. And so this,

[33:01] so Whitney's Grove Road is not a town approved road.

[33:04] It's a private road. I got that.

[33:05] So, so there's no access on a town approved road.

[33:09] Yes, I understand that. So there's no frontage there at all.

[33:11] Yeah. Alright. Anything Ms.

[33:15] Solan, I might have missed there. No, that

[33:17] Was a good way to state it.

[33:18] Thank you.

[33:20] So y'all all set Mr. Dani? Yeah. Okay. Good enough. Mr.

[33:25] Donlin, anything?

[33:29] Not at this time. Mr. Henry. Ms. I'm all set.

[33:32] Thank you Mrs. Moore. Anything? I don't have anything. Okay.

[33:36] Mr. Wing, you have anything else to add?

[33:38] I don't, I don't believe so. Okay, thank you.

[33:43] It's an existing lot of records since 1970 you said? Yes.

[33:47] Okay. Emphasis on that.

[33:50] Alright, well let's make a call the public

[33:54] May, may I add one more thing though?

[33:56] The lot was created in 1970

[33:58] but the, the rights to that section, the, it,

[34:02] the lots were made smaller in 1970,

[34:04] but there, the property that was there had deeded rights

[34:08] as well back to like 1920 something I believe

[34:12] When God made the lake.

[34:13] Right. Got it. Alright.

[34:17] Alright, well let's make a call to public.

[34:19] Anybody wishing to speak favorably to this application,

[34:22] this would be your opportunity to come forward.

[34:26] We have one individual and I think this is your client.

[34:29] Yeah. Should we allow him to speak? Sure. All right.

[34:32] Mr. Lannan, have a seat. Yeah,

[34:34] I'm the owner of the Property.

[34:35] Have a seat and I'll let you

[34:36] introduce your name for the record.

[34:38] Steven Lannan. Okay. Owner of the property. Got it.

[34:41] And yeah, when I bought the, when I purchased the piece

[34:44] of land in hopes I bought two pieces of land

[34:48] and one in hopes to put a house on there

[34:51] for my daughter when I was there.

[34:53] So my concern was more when my ne I had one neighbor come up

[34:58] and, and voice their concerns about traffic on the road.

[35:01] And very, I, it'll be a very low impact.

[35:03] It's gonna be my daughter, her husband, and the kids.

[35:06] And I don't see any more than that.

[35:08] You know, it, it's summer traffic.

[35:10] We're going to see when I drive in

[35:13] and out of that road, I may see a car every

[35:16] five times in and out.

[35:19] It's lack of traffic.

[35:20] I work in maintenance on the road as many,

[35:24] every time there was snow, my truck plowed on that road.

[35:29] I've limbed those trees in that road.

[35:31] Snow limbs wouldn't come down.

[35:33] So I'm definitely there to help.

[35:34] That's what I know how to do is work.

[35:37] And I just hope we can get this through.

[35:40] It's, it's a variance to get access to the lot.

[35:43] Mr. Trip, you brought something attention.

[35:46] This is the owner of the property? Yep. Yep.

[35:48] Does did he give us his address?

[35:51] Well, we'll you, what's your actual legal address?

[35:54] 23 Whitneys Grove Road. Very

[35:56] Good.

[35:57] And this is for 17 Whitneys Grove Road, correct? Yep.

[36:01] All set. Mr. Tripp. Thank you. Yep, you're welcome.

[36:04] And so I think prior on the January 8th case,

[36:09] there was questions raised about maintenance

[36:11] or sh shared maintenance or whatever.

[36:14] I'm sure you have access to some gravel

[36:16] or stone once in a while.

[36:18] Yes. Yeah. Alright. And

[36:19] so it sounds like you're already participating towards that.

[36:22] All right, any other questions from anybody on the board?

[36:26] Seeing none. Okay, let's make a call to opposition.

[36:30] Anybody else here to speak favorably? Okay. Alright.

[36:35] We're gonna have you guys take a step back

[36:37] and you'll have an opportunity to rebut.

[36:39] Correct. And so anybody in opposition

[36:43] of this application may come forward at this time?

[36:50] Oh yeah. Come right over. Sit right down.

[36:55] Hi, my name's Wendy Schoenberger.

[36:57] I live at number 15, Whitney Grove.

[36:59] We've been there since 1989, so maybe 34 years.

[37:06] I have a number of issues to bring up,

[37:08] but first I'd like to comment on a few of the questions

[37:10] that I can answer for you in regard to the road

[37:14] and comments from tonight.

[37:19] Let's see. The first one would be that I know

[37:23] without question that when that house was

[37:25] for sale last summer, the

[37:27] House of the lot At number 23, which

[37:30] at the time it was 23 slash or 17 slash 23.

[37:35] And I will explain that,

[37:36] but there was never any implication

[37:38] that a home could be built on that property.

[37:42] I'm sorry, yeah, on that property it was said

[37:44] that you could potentially build a 30 by 50 foot,

[37:50] I think they called it a shed, which was implying a garage.

[37:54] I know that because A, I looked into the property,

[37:57] I was watching it carefully throughout.

[38:00] I was there at the time, five years earlier when

[38:03] that house was built.

[38:04] And I was there at the time, three years

[38:06] before that when it came up in town auction.

[38:10] So,

[38:12] So when you say the house,

[38:13] are you talking about the house on this lot

[38:16] that the applications for number

[38:17] Seven?

[38:18] Well that's what I wanna explain is that number 17

[38:20] and 23 were one unit

[38:23] and the reason that number 23 was allowed

[38:26] to build a three bedroom, three bath, 2,400 foot,

[38:30] whatever it is home there is because the septic tank,

[38:34] and I believe the, well I'm not sure about

[38:36] that is all on number 17, which is now

[38:40] where they wanna build another home.

[38:42] They split that property off last year.

[38:45] But it was very clear if you look it up on Zillow using the

[38:48] s 'cause the road is called Whitney's as plural now

[38:52] you'll see that on there clearly.

[38:56] And when it was created in 1970, it was,

[39:01] it was a cottage at number 23 was 17, I believe attached

[39:06] to it just until last year.

[39:10] Number 19 was approved in January

[39:13] for a year round home to be built on it.

[39:16] But that lot is about two

[39:18] and a half acres as compared to this lot, which

[39:21] is really only one acre.

[39:23] But it already is part of a variance of the two lots

[39:26] that they have put together equaling 1.7 acres

[39:31] that they already have this lodge home on.

[39:33] And they already used the variance for 17 to make

[39:36] that happen because they needed the septic system there.

[39:40] All right. So I just need to be clear

[39:42] 'cause you're talking about a bunch

[39:43] of different Whitney's Grove addresses.

[39:45] So the one here on the application is

[39:48] for 17 Whitney's Grove.

[39:49] Yep. The other one that was associated with it was 2323,

[39:54] Which is where the Landons live right now.

[39:57] Okay. Very nice neighbors.

[40:00] And number 19 is the lot that's behind

[40:03] that, that's on the lake.

[40:04] And that has been up for sale for about five years.

[40:07] And that was it got the permit in here in

[40:10] January and it did close.

[40:12] It did in fact belong to the Russells for years and years.

[40:17] And it now belongs to John Mason. He's a builder.

[40:22] He has a four bedroom I believe permit

[40:24] and he's gonna build and sell.

[40:27] He's in construction.

[40:31] So there's a lot of concerns

[40:35] that are coming from me.

[40:37] You did mention that the driveway situation, the condition

[40:40] of the road and everything that came from an another

[40:42] neighbor, the cars, they actually said they don't feel

[40:46] that they needed to come tonight

[40:47] because they were sure you guys wouldn't forget about them

[40:50] and their concerns with the road.

[40:55] So let's see.

[40:57] The first concern and the biggest concern that my husband

[41:00] and I have, and he's here too if you wanna hear from him,

[41:03] but is a fire hazard.

[41:05] The way the road works, Whitney Grove,

[41:06] Whitney's Grove is actually a half a mile long road

[41:11] and that half a mile road goes all the way up to the top

[41:14] to Island Pond Road.

[41:18] So the lot that we're talking about tonight,

[41:22] number 17 not only has a septic field

[41:26] and all of the attached items that need to go

[41:29] with the septic field, but it also has a right of way on it.

[41:33] That takes number 19 from Whitney's Gro into their lot

[41:38] because that is

[41:42] landlocked without that right of way.

[41:44] So this one acre lot that we have,

[41:50] which I think is about 43,500 feet,

[41:54] already has a septic on it, already has

[41:59] an obligation to duplicate that septic system.

[42:04] Exactly. According to state laws,

[42:06] I don't remember the number

[42:07] but I think I might have it in the back if you need it.

[42:11] So assuming that that's at least two

[42:14] or 3000 feet, then there's another two

[42:18] or 3000 feet gone from that.

[42:21] There are several rights of way on our road.

[42:23] There's the property at number one.

[42:26] There's a right of way for all of us to go across their lot

[42:30] or land 35 feet wide to get to number three,

[42:34] which then has a right of way.

[42:37] And then to number 21, which has a right of way.

[42:39] And that's where the road cuts off.

[42:42] And when it cuts off, I don't know if they stick

[42:46] with number 21

[42:48] or number, the car resident, whatever number that is,

[42:52] which is probably 20 or something like that in there.

[42:57] And then my part of Whitney Grove is the one

[42:59] that goes straight on down to the lake from there.

[43:02] So my house is on kind of the bottom, you know, do south

[43:06] of that red spot.

[43:08] So when you go down there, there's three houses.

[43:11] One of 'em says proton technologies and there's one more.

[43:16] And my biggest concern is a fire hazard.

[43:18] And where you have that pointer right at this moment,

[43:23] sometime about, I'm gonna guess six

[43:25] or seven years ago, that house caught on fire.

[43:28] There was a little boy living at the house,

[43:30] he was maybe 14 years old at the time.

[43:33] I think he's 20 or 21 now. So maybe it's seven years ago.

[43:37] The house caught fire. He came running over to our house,

[43:40] we had snow, thank God my husband and my son were at home.

[43:44] We were all sitting in the kitchen.

[43:46] He's banging on our slider,

[43:47] my house is on fire, my house is on fire.

[43:50] I immediately called 9 1 1, my husband

[43:52] and my son immediately ran over to that residence.

[43:56] My son, just by strange coincidence, had just finished

[43:59] that fire academy number two training as a teenager.

[44:04] And they went over there and they got

[44:06] that fire under control.

[44:08] They brought the, the mother of the, the wife of

[44:13] that residence over to my house.

[44:16] And I kept an eye on her because she was all burnt up.

[44:19] It was a horrifying night.

[44:21] And the fire department, when they arrived at that house,

[44:24] it, it was a, a dryer fire.

[44:28] But when they arrived at that house, they said to everyone,

[44:31] if my husband and my son hadn't been there, not only would

[44:34] that house have gone down,

[44:36] but we would've lost the whole area.

[44:38] You can see all the trees there.

[44:40] The ambulance had to come,

[44:41] she had burns all the way up her arms on both sides.

[44:44] She wasn't back in the house for three to six months.

[44:47] She didn't work for months.

[44:48] It was a really devastating time for all of us,

[44:51] even us next door

[44:53] because it's impossible to think of getting to the water

[44:58] when I know that you see the lake is right there,

[45:01] but when it's cold out,

[45:02] if there's ice, et cetera, et cetera.

[45:04] And we're talking about just really just kind of

[45:07] around the corner from us

[45:08] because number 19, that you gave the permit on in January

[45:13] is right next to my property.

[45:15] It has been vacant for 40 years or more.

[45:19] And with that in mind, so kind of where the red spot is,

[45:23] there's deadwood all over the place.

[45:26] I'm sure it'll be cleaned up somewhat

[45:28] and all of that area, there's,

[45:30] there's a lot of land up there.

[45:33] It's just, it's just a fire waiting to happen.

[45:36] And with that in mind, we are all terrified at the bottom.

[45:40] You can see if a fire truck comes down just at your,

[45:44] you know, right there and it turns left in there

[45:48] if fire trucks get backed up there

[45:50] 'cause there's only room for one vehicle to go in there,

[45:54] we are not gonna be able to get out.

[45:55] We will have no chance of survival unless we

[45:58] and our family jump in a lake.

[46:00] That's it. And once that place burns down,

[46:02] it's not just rebuild your house,

[46:05] we're talking about it could be all trees there burnt out

[46:10] and have a no home.

[46:12] So that's my biggest concern.

[46:14] There's already gonna be a right

[46:15] of way across this number 17 lot

[46:18] that is gonna allow number 19 to get in and out.

[46:23] And it's already being a very congested area down there.

[46:28] So I first we'll talk about that.

[46:31] And then the next item of safety concern

[46:33] to me is the blind spots and traffic.

[46:36] It's a half a mile single lane

[46:39] road up and down.

[46:41] And I know Steve goes out early in the morning,

[46:43] he says he doesn't happen

[46:44] to see anybody when he comes and goes.

[46:46] But just today I went halfway up the road

[46:50] and Steve was there coming down

[46:53] and there was also a neighbor that he was talking to,

[46:55] which is fine.

[46:57] But I had to sit there

[46:59] and wait while they finish their conversation.

[47:01] And then I had to wait in the one area that there is,

[47:04] it's kind of at the halfway point for us to pass each other

[47:08] because there's no room on the road for us to pass.

[47:11] But it doesn't just happen with people talking

[47:13] to the neighbors, it happens with the UPS, the, you know,

[47:16] you name all the trucks that are coming down the dump truck,

[47:19] the the water delivery, it just goes on and on and on.

[47:24] And it could be that we are keeping different hours

[47:27] but there is a lot of traffic on the road.

[47:30] As a matter of fact, when in 1985 when the road was built,

[47:34] there were three round year round homes

[47:36] and there were a couple of cottages on the road.

[47:39] Right now we have 24 drivers on the road.

[47:43] We are talking about one more house,

[47:45] but one more house setting precedent for another family

[47:49] that owns 14 acres there.

[47:50] Are we gonna let them build 12 more houses on a road

[47:54] that's single lane.

[47:55] I mean it's just, it's out of control there as it is.

[48:00] So with all of that, you know, we have had very serious

[48:03] accidents, especially in the wintertime on the road.

[48:06] I personally was driving up the hill and it was icy

[48:11] but it wasn't a storm or anything.

[48:13] And as I was going up the main hill, another neighbor,

[48:16] she's from number 11, was driving in

[48:20] and I saw that she was sliding on the ice.

[48:23] I threw my car in reverse and went down the hill

[48:26] and during the time I was driving down the hill,

[48:29] she hit a rock, she flipped up in the air,

[48:32] her car landed on my hood

[48:34] and it fell to the ground in front of me.

[48:37] And while it was on the ground, it crushed

[48:39] and she could barely crawl out.

[48:41] And she still is having surgeries today,

[48:44] after about eight to 10 years.

[48:47] I had a child in the car at the time

[48:50] and if she landed on the roof we would have both been dead.

[48:54] And I know that you think, well you never run into anybody.

[48:56] But that day we ran into somebody

[48:58] and also the guy that lives at number 13,

[49:01] he came over the other hill, which is all blind spots.

[49:04] And I do have pictures on my phone if

[49:06] there's a way to show them.

[49:08] But as he came over the hill

[49:09] and I was coming up the other hill, he turned off

[49:13] and he slid about 30 or 40 feet into the woods.

[49:17] My husband came up with a big tractor.

[49:20] And even with the tractor, they couldn't get 'em out

[49:22] of there because it was so deep in, okay,

[49:25] So let me, I'm gonna stop you there

[49:27] 'cause I, I, I appreciate the anecdotes and,

[49:29] and the excitement on Whitney's Grove Road that goes on.

[49:33] But I want to focus on something you opened up with,

[49:36] which was the septic system.

[49:38] So understand that in the guidelines

[49:40] that this board's looking at a lot of times whether

[49:44] or not the property can be develop, developed, built on and

[49:48] and acquire a permit

[49:50] becomes the most substantial point of this.

[49:52] Oh okay. Yep. Okay. But

[49:53] but that aside, what I'm gathering from your testimony is

[49:58] that you feel like the area is full at this point

[50:02] and that anybody else with property

[50:04] that has not had the fortune of developing it

[50:06] or using it to its reasonable use

[50:12] that the, that the barrel's full

[50:14] and nobody else should be able to use that. Am I correct?

[50:17] Well I think that if somebody has a three acre lot,

[50:20] which is the requirement in our area,

[50:22] that shouldn't be a problem.

[50:24] But if we're approving one acre lots with a lot of

[50:29] acreage or land that's not available on that one acre lot,

[50:33] then we're kind of opening it up

[50:34] to people making half acre lots.

[50:37] I don't think it's gonna increase the value as far

[50:41] as it goes with that house right now.

[50:43] Or I wanna say with that land right now there's a septic on

[50:47] that land for three bedroom, three bath,

[50:49] which is at number 23.

[50:51] But that's where 23 got its approval to build

[50:55] with a variance because of this piece of land.

[50:58] And if they're allowed to build another one in addition to

[51:02] the boundary buffer that a septic tank has to have

[51:07] or a septic field, they have to have I,

[51:11] let's see, 75 feet from the lake

[51:13] and wetlands, there's a lot of wetlands.

[51:15] So again, I don't want to, I don't want to stop you okay.

[51:18] But I want to kind of abbreviate this a little bit. Okay.

[51:22] They can't get a permit if they don't meet the things

[51:25] that you're requiring that you're speaking of.

[51:27] And so if this board were to grant their application,

[51:31] they still have to get those items in line in order

[51:34] to get the building permit.

[51:36] Okay. Now the acreage issue is not noted here.

[51:40] What is the size of this lot?

[51:42] So based on the plans we have, it's 1.1 acres.

[51:45] I see, okay. Yes. Okay.

[51:47] And does it say that they are, they have, they have

[51:50] to give a right of way to number 19 on it,

[51:52] which we have right of aways to some, a couple

[51:55] of different people through our property

[51:57] and it's 35 feet for the length of it.

[52:00] I don't know what that length would be.

[52:02] I'd say it's more than a hundred feet.

[52:04] So will we require a municipal waiver

[52:07] of liability on this?

[52:09] Absolutely. And that's gonna be

[52:10] a condition to this if it can,

[52:11] That is a condition, correct?

[52:12] Yep. Requirement in this area is three

[52:15] acres zone, correct?

[52:17] Yep. And but this is one acre,

[52:19] It's a preexisting non-conforming lot of record.

[52:21] Yeah.

[52:23] Okay. There is a state approved septic design

[52:26] as well on record for this

[52:27] One on record.

[52:28] And that's relatively new. It's not expired. That

[52:31] Is, oh, it's for number 23.

[52:34] No, I can't find the

[52:39] date clearly in front of me,

[52:40] but looks like it's dated March 19th, 2026.

[52:45] Okay. And,

[52:47] and we'll let the applicant rebut this.

[52:53] We really don't want to get into car

[52:55] accidents. It's not significant.

[52:56] No, I don't, I especially don't want the teenagers

[52:59] To Hang on a minute.

[53:00] If you wanna abbreviate it by talking about just the safety

[53:03] of the road and the narrowness, that's fine.

[53:05] We get that. But you know, hearing about each accident

[53:08] and whatnot probably is not pertinent.

[53:10] Okay. I'm gonna hold you there for a second.

[53:12] Does the acreage size on this matter?

[53:17] No. Okay. Alright.

[53:21] Why don't you go ahead and finish up your points.

[53:23] I'll, if you can state to those that are significant to

[53:26] what this board has purview over. Okay.

[53:29] Okay. So if there's a pub, if there's a driveway

[53:31] that's coming out onto a public road,

[53:33] you generally want 200 feet visibility on each side

[53:38] and we have impossible situation up there

[53:41] that maybe you can see 10

[53:43] or 15 feet one way and 30 the other way.

[53:45] Okay, so let me hold you there. I know it's

[53:47] A private road.

[53:48] Lemme hold, wait a minute. I'm gonna hold you there.

[53:50] Okay, Ms. Owen, does the sight line issue

[53:54] for driveways apply on non town approved roads?

[53:57] No, it does not. Alright, very good.

[53:58] Alright, please proceed.

[54:01] Okay, so it is wetlands.

[54:06] We are in a drought right now

[54:07] and you don't really see that if you look at it,

[54:09] but it has been expected for number 19, the hub,

[54:12] the property behind when they make their right of way,

[54:15] that it may even need to be a bridge on a wet y year.

[54:19] I'm not in any way familiar with

[54:21] what their permits have been at this point,

[54:24] but it definitely is.

[54:26] Wetlands is so there that has

[54:28] to fit in the septic tank. And so

[54:31] Just just so you know, wetlands delineation will apply

[54:34] with the septic permit. Okay?

[54:37] Okay. Yep. And so I'm just gonna close out in the spirit

[54:41] of the ordinance would be to allow a home

[54:43] to be built on less than three acres in our part of town.

[54:47] This land has already been used as

[54:49] for a variant to build another home.

[54:52] It already has the septic plus the second

[54:54] identical area for that home.

[54:55] It has the right of way, it has shoreline restrictions,

[54:58] access to the road is dilapidated and may

[55:01] and not maintained.

[55:02] So we already have about 10 houses

[55:04] and we have no agreement on this road.

[55:08] And I don't see any way in the near future

[55:11] or the distance future that we're gonna figure this out

[55:13] about having two-way traffic.

[55:17] And we don't think it is in our best interest

[55:20] to have another small home thrown into that area

[55:24] because it's already pretty congested down there.

[55:27] So I don't think that the property values are gonna change

[55:30] over this in a positive way,

[55:32] but I do think that if an approval comes in

[55:36] for a lot like this, that is not only an acre,

[55:38] but it has all these other things going on,

[55:41] it degrades the whole intention of the three acre

[55:44] or even one acre property minimum in this town. So,

[55:49] Okay. Anything

[55:50] Else?

[55:51] Thank you for your time. You're welcome.

[55:52] I have a question, Mr. Trip.

[55:54] So you, you made the statement

[55:57] that there's no agreement on this access road

[56:02] for you to be able to use it.

[56:05] Well, I don't mean an agreement to use it.

[56:07] We have right away across all of those different pieces

[56:10] of land we talked about, it's an agreement with the people

[56:13] who live on the road now to maintain it.

[56:17] So even though there's big ruts, there used

[56:19] to be three houses we'd all pitch in, we'd do what needed

[56:22] to be done, but there's several people living there now

[56:25] and they, nobody, just, nobody chooses

[56:28] to agree on anything we wanted.

[56:29] Even put in mailboxes

[56:31] and nobody could agree on $50 each for mailboxes.

[56:35] But you, you have written agreement,

[56:37] written permission to use that road.

[56:39] It, it, it's written right away to use

[56:42] to cross those people's land. But so

[56:44] It's a cross and recross type easement.

[56:48] Say it again? It's A, this is a cross

[56:49] and recross. Easement.

[56:51] Yeah. Oh, I think it's a actual right away.

[56:53] I, I'm not sure what you mean

[56:55] by easement instead right away.

[56:57] Okay. But it's in our deed that we can get back and forth.

[57:01] Okay, thank you. That's, that's

[57:03] what I was wondering if it's in the deed.

[57:05] It's in the deed. Yep. Okay.

[57:06] And it's registered and you can get it, you can prove

[57:10] that you have right permission.

[57:14] Thank you.

[57:16] Anybody else? I think you're all set. Thank you.

[57:21] Thank you. Anybody else wish to speak in opposition

[57:25] of application?

[57:26] 26 dash one 11.

[57:29] Alright, seeing nobody else rise gentlemen,

[57:32] if you like come back up you can rebut.

[57:42] Yes. I would like to address some of the issues.

[57:47] It was mentioned that these two lots used was,

[57:51] was one were were one lot

[57:53] and that they were separated recently.

[57:57] That's the, they've been separate map

[57:59] and lot numbers for si since the seventies, since 1970.

[58:04] No new lots were created.

[58:07] The septic is a shared septic

[58:09] and I have received state

[58:13] construction approval for another one.

[58:17] The new one I, the state really is cracking down

[58:21] on septics.

[58:22] There's a really big rewrite of the rules which took effect

[58:25] of February of this

[58:26] year and lot loading.

[58:30] I'm not sure if many

[58:32] or any of you are familiar with lot loading.

[58:34] Lot loading requires a certain amount of land

[58:37] or area For

[58:42] certain amount of gallons per day of effluent.

[58:45] You 2000 gallons per day.

[58:50] One acre with perfect soils

[58:52] and perfect slope can take 2000 gallons of effluent a day

[58:57] to, to meet that requirement.

[58:59] You remove well radii easements, steep slopes, ledge,

[59:03] very poorly drained soils, all of that stuff.

[59:05] And what you have left is the amount of area you can,

[59:08] you can do a septic in.

[59:12] I have proven out the lot loading for this lot,

[59:16] including the load

[59:18] of the abutting lot where my client lives.

[59:19] The three bedroom, three or three bedroom,

[59:22] the lots septic sizing by the state is done by bedrooms.

[59:28] So this lot can support the

[59:31] existing septic from my client's current dwelling

[59:34] and what we are proposing.

[59:37] And I have received state construction approval for that.

[59:44] It was mentioned that rights

[59:46] of way existed across this property.

[59:49] You'll notice if you look at the plan, I show them there's,

[59:52] there's not one but two wanting either end.

[59:54] I had to remove those areas to meet lot loading.

[59:59] So we are not proposing any construction

[1:00:02] or impedance on those easements at all.

[1:00:05] Those are free and clear in

[1:00:08] and the, the lot immediately to the east of this,

[1:00:11] which received variance in January.

[1:00:13] They're in fact using that easement

[1:00:15] as their access, proposed access.

[1:00:23] The fire concern, I, I can't disagree with that. Right.

[1:00:27] None of us can disagree with that.

[1:00:28] This, there's, it would be difficult for a firetruck

[1:00:32] to get down there and turn around,

[1:00:35] but as is required by rs by

[1:00:39] statutory rule, the this sort of thing has to sign like a,

[1:00:44] a hold harmless document and record it.

[1:00:47] So that will be, that will be recorded.

[1:00:51] A municipal waiver of

[1:00:52] Liability.

[1:00:53] Yes, exactly. Site distance.

[1:00:58] Mrs. Owen mentioned that that's not relevant to

[1:01:02] a non-approved town road.

[1:01:05] The wetlands on the lot, I, I'm a wetland scientist

[1:01:08] and I did delineate the wetlands per,

[1:01:13] per the Army Corps of Engineer regulations

[1:01:19] and per state regulations.

[1:01:22] And we are, we are meeting all

[1:01:27] of the required distances and separations from the wetlands.

[1:01:33] So the geography now is separated the topography I guess

[1:01:38] prior to your loading calculations for your leaching system.

[1:01:44] The Is, I think that's what you were saying,

[1:01:47] I I removed all of the things I needed to remove area wise

[1:01:51] and what's remaining.

[1:01:53] That's what I do my calculations from.

[1:01:55] And that calculation does not include this other

[1:01:58] speculative lot that, that your client currently

[1:02:02] Owns.

[1:02:03] It does include it because there is a shared septic

[1:02:05] with easement on this, on the subject property.

[1:02:08] I see. Okay. They pump from 23, which which is on the water.

[1:02:11] If you look at your plan 23 is

[1:02:14] to the right side on the plan.

[1:02:15] Okay. By the north arrow

[1:02:21] that, that's where my client lives.

[1:02:23] His septic pumps up to this lot.

[1:02:25] There's a little dash dot line right

[1:02:29] above the proposed garage.

[1:02:31] That's the existing septic field.

[1:02:33] We are, I, I don't,

[1:02:37] I don't know if you have the exist, the,

[1:02:39] the new septic design.

[1:02:41] I included it, but yes we do. Okay.

[1:02:45] That, that you'll see the new design

[1:02:47] between the proposed garage

[1:02:49] and the proposed house, which is it, it allows

[1:02:55] all the room required for the current septic as well.

[1:02:58] And the lot does support both by, by rule.

[1:03:03] And I can see your elevations off

[1:03:05] to the left of that plan.

[1:03:07] Yes. It would be your slope.

[1:03:09] The, the ones Separate from the leach field? Yes.

[1:03:12] Yep. Yep. And is that slope

[1:03:16] that's depicted there on the left, left lower corner

[1:03:20] of your septic plan?

[1:03:22] Is that actually going in the direction of the lake?

[1:03:26] That, that was an area that was excavated? It's the,

[1:03:31] And I'm not trying to get the bottom

[1:03:32] House.

[1:03:33] I'm the bottom of the house right there. Yeah.

[1:03:35] Is the lower part of that? Is that what you're asking?

[1:03:37] Well I just, I'm curious to orientation, that's all. Yeah.

[1:03:40] I'm not trying to override your license.

[1:03:42] The further, the further left you go on the plan,

[1:03:45] the more uphill it goes.

[1:03:47] Okay. Got it. Alright. That's just my orientation. Yeah.

[1:03:50] They're tricky sometimes. Yep.

[1:03:52] Okay. Thank you.

[1:03:56] And then it was mentioned that

[1:04:01] there was a concern about contribution

[1:04:03] to the maintenance of the road.

[1:04:05] My client does contribute I think

[1:04:08] significantly to the maintenance of that.

[1:04:09] So, and I trust that that will continue.

[1:04:13] Many of you know who the Landons are there.

[1:04:16] Just off the side note. Right.

[1:04:18] Is there any way, 'cause Whitney's Grove Road is, I,

[1:04:21] somebody said it was only a half mile from

[1:04:25] from Island Pond Road looks like

[1:04:27] it could be a little longer than that.

[1:04:29] I I truly don't know that. I can't answer to that.

[1:04:32] If, if she said that it's a half hour, I'm sure it is.

[1:04:35] I mean half hour, half a mile. Half a mile, yeah.

[1:04:37] Yeah. Been a long day.

[1:04:39] And are there any plans or discussions?

[1:04:45] I don't wanna say to form an association,

[1:04:47] but to start to deal with this stuff is,

[1:04:50] I, I haven't heard of any, this sort

[1:04:54] of thing isn't allowed anymore by,

[1:04:58] by any board because of this.

[1:05:00] Mm. So any sort of subdivision that occurs that's

[1:05:06] privately owned and maintained, there has

[1:05:08] to be some sort of association.

[1:05:09] Right. But the, the ones that are old that have been around

[1:05:12] for a hundred years, they, that they aren't like that.

[1:05:17] So I I have not heard if there's a, there are plans. Okay.

[1:05:21] It would behoove the people to have one,

[1:05:23] but it's hard to commit.

[1:05:25] Alright. You know, I can understand that. Well

[1:05:27] And just trying to nip at that safety issue,

[1:05:31] the fire issue that, that's brought up

[1:05:33] and, you know, these lots were around for a long time.

[1:05:38] It's not like they were a bunch of bare land

[1:05:40] that you're just carving into separate sections now.

[1:05:44] And so that's, you know, I kind of understood that the,

[1:05:48] the, the term is a reasonable use

[1:05:52] and where it's a lot of record that essentially

[1:05:58] kind of establishes that. Right.

[1:06:01] And, and deeded rights exist to access it.

[1:06:05] Okay. Anything else you wanna

[1:06:09] I don't believe so.

[1:06:10] I think I, I I hope to address all the issues

[1:06:13] and I, to be clear, I have no problem

[1:06:16] that these were brought up at all.

[1:06:19] Okay. I, I wanna, I wanna make sure that I address 'em.

[1:06:22] So if I've missed anything that was mentioned,

[1:06:24] you can remind me and I'll try to

[1:06:26] Yeah, no, I think, I think we've looked at all of it,

[1:06:30] the questions that the Abutter brought up.

[1:06:35] So unless Mr. Ani you have anything?

[1:06:40] I, well, I guess my question is like, how many,

[1:06:44] how much housing can you put on a road

[1:06:47] that is at this stage?

[1:06:51] I mean, you're saying you are, you, you mentioned

[1:06:53] that we would, you know, just

[1:06:55] because there's lots, are there, are we filling them all up

[1:06:58] or is there a limit to how wide and how big that road is?

[1:07:04] Well, essentially

[1:07:09] you've got the key points here are

[1:07:11] that this is a lot of record.

[1:07:14] And so someone owns a parcel there that dates back

[1:07:19] 50 years or so,

[1:07:22] and it's, it's on a path

[1:07:26] a little more than a path Class six road that has been known

[1:07:31] as the access point to all these parcels.

[1:07:35] And to look at this in a way that you might be

[1:07:40] raising your question suggests that these folks would have

[1:07:45] to abandon their parcel.

[1:07:49] No, I'm not saying that they would have

[1:07:50] to abandon a parcel, but at one point with the,

[1:07:55] when the road is a regularized road,

[1:08:00] it could accommodate more.

[1:08:02] Doesn't mean that it's abandoned, it just might mean it's

[1:08:06] a usable portion at this point.

[1:08:09] Yeah. And I may mistaken where your question was going,

[1:08:15] but essentially when you are, when you're raising

[1:08:18] that question, how many more

[1:08:20] buildings can you put on this road?

[1:08:22] If the, if there's lots of record, each lot has its right

[1:08:26] to come forward and ask for that relief.

[1:08:29] Okay. And just, just my clarification and,

[1:08:32] and just understanding when these were made 50 years ago,

[1:08:35] we had no idea what they put on them.

[1:08:37] Correct.

[1:08:40] Say that again. Well,

[1:08:42] these were lots were made 50 years ago with a intention

[1:08:46] of having them as, you know, cabins

[1:08:51] seasonal or were they intentions

[1:08:54] of having a full fledged home on that lot?

[1:08:57] I guess that's just what I was just trying to figure out.

[1:09:00] If I take you back a hundred years

[1:09:04] or so, when the nation was growing

[1:09:07] and the government was giving out parcels,

[1:09:11] I'm thinking back then nobody,

[1:09:12] nobody in their right mind knew

[1:09:14] what was coming a hundred years later.

[1:09:16] So in that regard, I don't know

[1:09:19] that people had a necessary plan.

[1:09:22] I'm sure back in the,

[1:09:24] did you say the early 19 hundreds these things were formed?

[1:09:27] Yeah, I have it back to the twenties. Yeah.

[1:09:30] Yeah. A bunch of guys went out on a weekend, dug a ditch,

[1:09:33] it became Island Pond,

[1:09:35] and somebody said, let's,

[1:09:37] let's grab some piece of land there.

[1:09:39] We can go camping on the weekends. You know,

[1:09:41] I guess that's my point. Yeah.

[1:09:43] If, if new lots are created, the,

[1:09:48] the road, the, the town would require the road

[1:09:51] to be upgraded to current standards.

[1:09:54] But existing lots,

[1:09:57] like Mr. Perkins mentioned that, you know,

[1:10:01] each one has the right to come

[1:10:02] and ask for, for this variance.

[1:10:05] If a new lot's created,

[1:10:06] then it's a different, different game.

[1:10:09] Yeah, I mean the, the planning process, right?

[1:10:11] If somebody came in and said, we want to, we want

[1:10:14] to grab this 25 acres out here on the road edge,

[1:10:17] on the pond edge and,

[1:10:19] and put in a 10 house development, the town,

[1:10:22] the planning board would say, well start digging your road

[1:10:26] because you're not gonna get it on a, on a class six road.

[1:10:32] Okay. That's my, where my question was going. Alright,

[1:10:35] I got a question.

[1:10:36] Mr. Trip. Is there a utilities provided out there?

[1:10:41] Electric.

[1:10:43] Electric, yes. And private. Well, and septic on the lot.

[1:10:46] Yeah. But, you know, but

[1:10:48] Yeah, there, there's electric down through there. Yes.

[1:10:50] Alright. Anybody else on my left?

[1:10:55] Mr. John,

[1:10:57] Just to be clear, there's no

[1:11:00] everything else about the garage in the house

[1:11:03] and you elaborated on the septic in great detail.

[1:11:06] Thank you. Everything else about this is conforming

[1:11:09] to setbacks and wetland setbacks and all that.

[1:11:12] The only variance we're talking about right now is the,

[1:11:15] the lack of road frontage, correct?

[1:11:17] Yes. All set. Mr.

[1:11:22] Donlin? I am Mr. Henry, anything from you?

[1:11:25] I'm all set. Thank You. All right, Mr. Bumba. All set.

[1:11:27] Okay.

[1:11:34] All right. I think we're all set,

[1:11:35] and if you have nothing else, we can take a motion

[1:11:37] to go into deliberation.

[1:11:39] Thank you. You're all set.

[1:11:41] So moved. Second.

[1:11:43] Thank you Mr. Tripp. As the motion Mr.

[1:11:45] Donlin makes the second Mrs. Boudreaux. All right.

[1:11:49] And all in favor of deliberation, say aye. Aye. Aye. Aye.

[1:11:53] Aye. Thank you. Any opposed? Hearing none.

[1:11:58] All right. So we know we're gonna add a condition,

[1:12:00] municipal waiver of liability.

[1:12:02] Could be presumed that that would be part of the permitting

[1:12:05] and inspections aspect of this,

[1:12:08] but I, I want to make that separate.

[1:12:12] That would of course get registered with the deed.

[1:12:17] Anybody else have anything they want to talk about here? Mr.

[1:12:22] Dani? You asked good question.

[1:12:23] Anything that you have questions about that you wish

[1:12:26] to speak to?

[1:12:29] No, I think that's, I think we answered all my

[1:12:32] Questions.

[1:12:33] All right. Mr.

[1:12:34] Tripp, you know, there's a reference

[1:12:36] to the January 8th hearing on a, on an abutting lot.

[1:12:39] You had a lot of questions similar to those that you asked

[1:12:43] of one of the abutters.

[1:12:45] Any concerns there that you see you need to address?

[1:12:51] Well, the thing is, since it is a lot of record, then

[1:12:58] they have, there's no restrictions

[1:13:03] other than code codes

[1:13:07] on them being able to build a house, you know,

[1:13:11] and as, as you mentioned, the only

[1:13:15] thing the variance the applicant is asking for is

[1:13:20] a variance for no frontage on a public road.

[1:13:25] So it's one of these things that when,

[1:13:32] when somebody wants to buy this,

[1:13:36] they should be aware of the limitations

[1:13:42] of, you know, getting to the property,

[1:13:49] you know, transportation wise, you know,

[1:13:52] and

[1:13:57] weather wise, you know, the,

[1:14:03] And I, and I think in this regard, it was mentioned

[1:14:07] that the owners currently live there.

[1:14:10] I think think the, it suggested that the subdivision or,

[1:14:14] or not the subdivision,

[1:14:16] but the use of the abutting lot is maybe

[1:14:19] for one of the children.

[1:14:22] But often in a listing if a real estate sale, you would see

[1:14:27] those points implied.

[1:14:30] But certainly someone that would look at an image on

[1:14:34] the multiple listing service

[1:14:36] and say, well, I'm gonna go look at this house,

[1:14:39] and then they'd drive down this road

[1:14:41] and they'd probably figure it out.

[1:14:44] So. Yeah. Well, the other thing that I was thinking is,

[1:14:47] you know, somebody mentioned that

[1:14:53] septic tanks are, are built to number

[1:14:58] of bedrooms they have to

[1:15:01] su supply to.

[1:15:05] And I think somebody said that the, the,

[1:15:09] the one lot has a building with four bedrooms on it,

[1:15:13] and this one is gonna be three bedrooms.

[1:15:15] So something I should ask the

[1:15:20] applicant was, is the existing tank, which is going

[1:15:23] to be shared, you know, suitable

[1:15:26] for seven bedrooms? You know,

[1:15:28] I, I, go ahead, Mr.

[1:15:31] Dong. The way I understood that was that there's

[1:15:34] an existing septic area on this lot

[1:15:37] that is servicing the lot, the other house 23

[1:15:41] as we were referring to it.

[1:15:43] And there's a whole new leaching field

[1:15:45] and septic system that will service this

[1:15:49] proposed three bedroom dwelling and proposed garage.

[1:15:53] And I, and I think what I had heard off of that also is

[1:15:56] that the, that the application for this septic is shared

[1:16:00] and, but all the design criteria

[1:16:03] and lot loading, the loading

[1:16:06] for the bedrooms are separate from both components are

[1:16:09] part of this design.

[1:16:10] Oh. And,

[1:16:12] and understanding that, that the septic design is, you know,

[1:16:16] it's, it's a good narrative that creates understanding

[1:16:20] for the board, but it's, it's,

[1:16:22] the permitting itself is not in our purview.

[1:16:25] Yep. Only to know that it's, it can be done. Anything else?

[1:16:33] No. Mr. Donlin, anything?

[1:16:37] Yeah, I got a few points.

[1:16:39] I, I think that there needs to be a

[1:16:44] emphasis on the major distinction

[1:16:46] between an existing non-conforming lot in a new

[1:16:51] subdivided lot off of a different parcel.

[1:16:54] To me, that's a huge distinction.

[1:16:57] As in, so if thi if this was hypothetically one four

[1:17:02] acre lot, they were trying to carve a one acre lot out

[1:17:05] of it, I would see this in a completely different light than

[1:17:07] an existing non-conforming lot that's been there for

[1:17:11] let's just say 50 plus years.

[1:17:12] Sure. And so you are, you're,

[1:17:17] you would just prefer clarity down the road, I guess

[1:17:21] I just wanted to bring that up

[1:17:22] for anybody who was listening.

[1:17:24] Okay. I guess I would have one more thing to say. Mr.

[1:17:27] True. The lady that was up here speaking, she said

[1:17:31] that her access was recorded in her deed.

[1:17:38] I, I guess I would have to ask, is this lots access

[1:17:43] recorded in its deed?

[1:17:47] I would get the sense that Whitney's Grove

[1:17:50] as it's class six and I'm, I'm guessing,

[1:17:52] but we could come out of protocol if you wanted

[1:17:55] to ask the question,

[1:17:57] but Whitney's Grove as it's a deeded access

[1:18:01] or as a Class six, is probably the deeded access for all

[1:18:05] of these parcels when they were created.

[1:18:09] Well, the thing is, it appears that this lot, which is

[1:18:13] 16 dash three, has access from 16

[1:18:18] dash 15 to Whitney's Grove.

[1:18:21] You know, so would,

[1:18:27] would it have in its deed that

[1:18:33] it would get that a access across

[1:18:36] 16 dash 15 to Whitney's Grove?

[1:18:41] When I'm looking on their deed that we have in our files,

[1:18:44] it does say processing lot 15 and 16 on their deed.

[1:18:49] Oh, alright. Good. Thank you Mr.

[1:18:52] Dani, you good there Mr. Tripp?

[1:18:55] I am. Okay. And so, Mr. Dani, anything else from you?

[1:19:00] No, I think Donnelley helped clarify it. Thank you.

[1:19:03] Okay. And Mr. Moore, you're all set?

[1:19:07] No, I had just one thing to go off of what Mr.

[1:19:10] Donnellan said. It is the preexisting non-conforming lot

[1:19:14] of record, but the town did own it just 10 years ago

[1:19:18] and nothing changed when it sold.

[1:19:20] So I just wanna make that point to have that on the record

[1:19:25] that it was town owned only 10 years ago.

[1:19:28] Okay.

[1:19:34] Alright. So in, in my regard

[1:19:37] and being have gone down this road myself in the past,

[1:19:41] usually lots of record that are historic,

[1:19:45] insulate themselves from some of the normal criteria,

[1:19:49] updated zoning ordinances that may

[1:19:54] commonly surround

[1:19:58] development of property.

[1:20:00] And overall, I, I don't,

[1:20:03] I'm not seeing a conflict with this.

[1:20:05] We've, we've granted this, that

[1:20:07] as Mrs. Moore has just indicated,

[1:20:09] the town owned this property 10 years ago.

[1:20:12] They sold that by the, the town sold it off by their right.

[1:20:18] And so that right should be perpetual

[1:20:20] to the next owners structuring the motion.

[1:20:25] We have subject to obtaining all state

[1:20:27] and town permits and inspections.

[1:20:30] The second condition on

[1:20:31] that would be a municipal waiver of liability.

[1:20:34] The board does not hold any

[1:20:40] delegation here to address maintenance of this road.

[1:20:44] It's a private road class six road.

[1:20:47] So that's not in our purview.

[1:20:50] Does anybody else have any other conditions they see

[1:20:53] appropriate on this motion

[1:20:54] before we come outta deliberation?

[1:20:58] No, I think where it's already allot of record.

[1:21:02] Very good. No gestures there.

[1:21:04] So in that case, let's come outta deliberation.

[1:21:07] Gimme a motion. Mr. Dani?

[1:21:09] Yeah, I a motion to come outta deliberation.

[1:21:13] I have a second please. Second. Thank you Mr.

[1:21:15] Donlin. Yours

[1:21:17] To read for.

[1:21:18] Can I read for you?

[1:21:20] Sure. There you go.

[1:21:22] All in favor of coming out of deliberation, say aye. Aye.

[1:21:26] Aye. Any opposed? Mrs. Moore,

[1:21:30] you have a motion to read?

[1:21:32] I do. Thank you. I make a motion on case number two six

[1:21:36] dash one promised land survey LLC

[1:21:41] to grant a variance as

[1:21:43] provided in Article three, section 1 65 dash nine

[1:21:48] of the town of dairy zoning ordinance in New Hampshire, RSA

[1:21:53] 6 7 4 4 1 to allow the construction

[1:21:57] of a single family dwelling on the lot,

[1:21:59] which does not have frontage on a town approved street

[1:22:04] on a town not approved street

[1:22:06] parcel ID 1 5 0 1 6 dash 0 0 3

[1:22:12] zoned LDR as presented

[1:22:14] with the following conditions we have two.

[1:22:17] One subject to obtaining all state

[1:22:19] and town permits and inspections.

[1:22:22] Two will require a municipal waiver of liability.

[1:22:26] And that concludes the reading of the motion.

[1:22:28] I need a second.

[1:22:30] Second. Alright. Thank you Mr. Tripp.

[1:22:36] That puts that motion on the table.

[1:22:40] I'm sorry, on the floor.

[1:22:44] That's like saying water over the bridge. Right. All right.

[1:22:48] Finding a fact for case number 26 dash

[1:22:54] one 11 Heard

[1:22:58] May 7th, 2026 as ZBA heard the application

[1:23:02] of promised land survey LLC on behalf of s

[1:23:05] and t nominee trust

[1:23:09] concerning the property located at 17 Whitneys Grove Road

[1:23:13] parcel ID 1 5 0 1 16 dash 0 0 3

[1:23:17] notice was provided to the immediate abut per statute.

[1:23:20] The board received testimony from the applicant,

[1:23:24] legal counsel, town staff, if appropriate it is

[1:23:29] and abutters in members of the public

[1:23:32] documentary evidence included,

[1:23:33] but was not limited to site plans, photos, records,

[1:23:36] and expert testimony.

[1:23:38] This is the, a pre-existing non-conforming lot of record

[1:23:42] with frontage on Whitney's Grove Road.

[1:23:45] A private class six road that is not maintained by the town

[1:23:49] property is located in the low density residential

[1:23:51] zoning district.

[1:23:53] This district requires a minimum of 200 feet

[1:23:55] of frontage along an approved public street.

[1:23:58] Therefore, a variance is being requested if approved.

[1:24:01] Per RSA 6 74 41 a notice of waiver

[1:24:06] of municipal liability

[1:24:07] and responsibility must be recorded

[1:24:09] with the deed Town council authorization is required

[1:24:12] to issue the building permit.

[1:24:14] The board weighed testimony both for

[1:24:17] and against the proposal.

[1:24:19] A And I've messed up the order here of, of our documents

[1:24:24] that are usually very well prepared till I

[1:24:28] get my hands on 'em.

[1:24:30] So in regards to the board's findings

[1:24:33] of fact on the contrary to the public interest, Mr.

[1:24:38] Donlin, what say you on that regard?

[1:24:42] Gimme one second. I already put my notes away.

[1:24:50] Do you find this meets the public interest? I

[1:24:52] Do find it meets the public interest.

[1:24:55] I don't see it as contrary as it's in keeping

[1:25:01] with the established ne

[1:25:03] neighborhood, for lack of a better term.

[1:25:06] Okay. Mr. Dani, how do you sit on the public interest?

[1:25:12] I don't see any controversy with

[1:25:15] No conflicts.

[1:25:16] No conflicts. Very good. Mr. Tripp,

[1:25:24] As the witnesses said there, this is a

[1:25:29] area that is fairly build up.

[1:25:35] You know, it's one of those things that the addition

[1:25:38] of one more house is not going to

[1:25:42] have that big of impact.

[1:25:44] Alright. Chair sees the public interest in this regard

[1:25:49] is, is met as it grants use

[1:25:54] of the property as the lot

[1:25:57] of record would intend Mrs. Morin.

[1:26:00] I agree. Where there's no new access is being provided.

[1:26:05] Very good

[1:26:14] Spirit of the ordinance.

[1:26:15] Mr. Donlin, you feel this meets the spirit of the ordinance?

[1:26:21] I do. As is an existing non-conforming lot.

[1:26:24] And they're not asking for relief in any

[1:26:27] dimensions or anything else. Just the road.

[1:26:30] Very good, Mr.

[1:26:35] Dani?

[1:26:36] I agree with Donlin.

[1:26:41] Okay. Mr. Trip,

[1:26:44] As Mr.

[1:26:47] Donlin said, this is the only

[1:26:51] variance they're requesting, they're

[1:26:53] otherwise compliant

[1:26:58] to the town's ordinances.

[1:27:00] Okay. This Mrs. Morin

[1:27:01] And Chair, I agree with what has been stated already

[1:27:04] that it is within the spirit.

[1:27:07] Okay.

[1:27:12] I I would concur.

[1:27:14] The spirit of the ordinance is met

[1:27:15] as the parcel is is dated.

[1:27:20] Lot of record, although it is non-conforming just to

[1:27:25] the later ordinance developments in in the community.

[1:27:33] Substantial justice.

[1:27:43] I'm gonna lead with that.

[1:27:44] The substantial justice is met as the,

[1:27:50] as the parcel can be developed as the intention

[1:27:54] that it in the intention that it was

[1:27:59] developed as a lot

[1:28:00] of record. Mr. Donlin?

[1:28:05] I agree. That's what my notes reflect as well.

[1:28:07] A lot of record

[1:28:10] Mr. Dani?

[1:28:11] I agree also. I,

[1:28:14] Mr.

[1:28:15] Trip

[1:28:16] What you said.

[1:28:18] Okay. Do you want me to say lot

[1:28:20] of record for you again?

[1:28:22] That would be fine. Okay. Mrs. Warren?

[1:28:25] I agree with what has been stated

[1:28:26] where it is an existing lot of record.

[1:28:29] Okay.

[1:28:34] Substantial justice.

[1:28:40] Did I just do the substantial justice number four?

[1:28:42] I'm sorry, but I'm writing in the names

[1:28:47] as we go of who's in attendance

[1:28:49] and trying to keep the five criteria separate.

[1:28:53] We're on number four. We're on number four.

[1:29:00] What

[1:29:00] Is number four?

[1:29:01] The value of surrounding properties.

[1:29:03] Okay. Thank you. Value of surrounding properties.

[1:29:06] Thank you. Mr.

[1:29:12] Donlin, do you find the the value

[1:29:13] of surrounding properties will be affected?

[1:29:18] I, my, I feel that the value

[1:29:21] of the surrounding properties will not be diminished.

[1:29:24] Okay. Generally

[1:29:29] speaking, the new construction tends to add values

[1:29:33] to surrounding properties as well as the cleanup

[1:29:37] and whatever else you have to do to the, to the lot

[1:29:41] to construct a home as well.

[1:29:44] Tends to clean up some debris

[1:29:46] and other things that kind

[1:29:48] of pile up in the woods over time.

[1:29:50] Okay. Mrs. Moore?

[1:29:52] Jerry, I agree that the, with new construction, it tends

[1:29:56] to increase value.

[1:29:58] Okay. I would say that substantial justice is done

[1:30:03] because the, or I'm sorry.

[1:30:04] Is that where we're at? Value surrounding value

[1:30:07] of surrounding properties is occurs

[1:30:10] because the development of this lot will help address some

[1:30:14] of the concerns that the Abutter had

[1:30:19] relative to traffic and, and fire hazard and safety.

[1:30:24] That the land will get, start to be cleaned up.

[1:30:26] Whereas before it was isolated

[1:30:29] and it was not so maintainable likely.

[1:30:33] I also see that due to the testimony participants

[1:30:38] occupying this area will help increase the maintenance

[1:30:42] of the Class six road.

[1:30:44] Mr. Trip.

[1:30:46] I think one of the good things that comes out of this is

[1:30:50] when you have one more person using the,

[1:30:55] the limited access, there's a possibility that

[1:31:00] people will get together and maybe improve the access.

[1:31:08] Who did I That'd Be me,

[1:31:10] Mr.

[1:31:11] Dani. Okay, go ahead.

[1:31:14] I agree with Mr. Trip.

[1:31:16] More people that can have access can maybe help

[1:31:19] improve that road as well.

[1:31:21] Very good. It does, does not diminish the values.

[1:31:23] I have all five people on record on that. Yes. Yes. Okay.

[1:31:26] Thank you.

[1:31:33] Hardship is demonstrated because Mr. Donlin,

[1:31:39] Literal enforcement of the provision in this case.

[1:31:43] Again, I I'm gonna go to the, to the law of record

[1:31:46] or existing non-conforming.

[1:31:48] There's no way, there's no,

[1:31:53] there is no 200 feet to be had.

[1:31:56] It's just what it is in this area.

[1:32:00] Okay, Mr. Tripp.

[1:32:03] Well that's, I would agree that

[1:32:10] there's no way that you could get 200 feet line of sight

[1:32:13] or front each.

[1:32:16] So the only way it could be developed would be to be,

[1:32:20] to give a variance to the,

[1:32:23] this particular ordinance code

[1:32:26] Mrs. Mor

[1:32:28] Chair.

[1:32:29] I agree. Where it would essentially be

[1:32:31] landlocked without it.

[1:32:33] Very good, Mr. Dani.

[1:32:36] And I would say because it's an existing lot that's,

[1:32:39] it's nonconforming,

[1:32:41] but that's its hardship

[1:32:44] to be able to be developed.

[1:32:47] Yeah. I I So I find that unnecessary hardship

[1:32:51] com applies here as the parcel is

[1:32:56] so isolated at a time when, when

[1:33:02] development is, is necessary in our, our region

[1:33:07] that this substantiates that

[1:33:09] and allows proper use of the proper of the parcel.

[1:33:14] I think that concludes all five of the five criteria

[1:33:18] for the finding of fact. All Do you

[1:33:21] Need to say the proposed use as a reasonable one?

[1:33:25] I'm sorry, again, Do you need to add

[1:33:26] that the proposed use is a reasonable one?

[1:33:28] No, I think we addressed the, the five adequately.

[1:33:31] Those are a lot of times either or. So in this regard.

[1:33:37] Oh, you have my motion, right?

[1:33:39] It's right here. Yep, that's fine. Okay.

[1:33:44] So the motion's been read all in favor

[1:33:45] of moving that for a vote.

[1:33:47] Say aye. Aye. Aye. Any opposed? Mr. Dani?

[1:33:52] Yes. Mr. Donlin? Yes. Mr. Trip? Yes.

[1:33:57] Mrs. Morin? Yes.

[1:33:59] And the chair will make that unanimous

[1:34:01] by a vote of five to zero.

[1:34:02] So, congratulations. Your application has been approved.

[1:34:06] Anybody agree by this has 30 days to ask this board

[1:34:10] for reconsideration?

[1:34:11] After that would be to superior court. Okay.

[1:34:14] Have a good evening

[1:34:29] and welcome Mr.

[1:34:31] Corbett. Hello. Good evening.

[1:34:34] You guys we're all speaking very nice in your microphones.

[1:34:37] Fun to be on that side of things, sir.

[1:34:40] Oh, you could hear us very

[1:34:42] Well.

[1:34:43] I think I know where the weak link on the board is.

[1:34:45] Well, you know, if you, if you talk like this,

[1:34:49] then you're not speaking into the microphone. What about

[1:34:51] Back here?

[1:34:52] This doesn't,

[1:34:56] Well, it's a good thing when you're cute.

[1:34:58] Otherwise you'd get rid of it.

[1:35:03] Speak for yourself. I didn't say I was cute.

[1:35:10] All right. Next up on the agenda.

[1:35:13] It is case number 26 dash 1 0 7.

[1:35:19] Folks, you can sit there for right now.

[1:35:22] And just to let you know

[1:35:23] where we're at in our process per board policies,

[1:35:26] we are going to finish up

[1:35:29] Abutter rebuttal.

[1:35:35] We had taken names of people who wanted to speak to this

[1:35:38] before we adjourned the last meeting.

[1:35:40] So we're gonna go there and then you folks will have an

[1:35:43] opportunity to rebut testimony from the last prior meeting

[1:35:48] as well as this one here.

[1:35:49] Okay? That being the case, Mr.

[1:35:54] Cardin, I think, as I recall, was up here we had to, had

[1:35:58] to suspend testimony.

[1:36:01] So at that point, at this point,

[1:36:02] the testimony is open now for hearing. And

[1:36:05] Do you wanna note also for the record that Mr.

[1:36:08] Donlan will stay on and I will not be on

[1:36:11] It?

[1:36:12] That would be fine. Mr. Donlin, please remain for this case.

[1:36:15] Yes, sir.

[1:36:32] And good evening. Good evening.

[1:36:34] Tom Cardin to Cunningham Drive.

[1:36:39] You probably know I've been following this for

[1:36:42] a little over a year now.

[1:36:44] You know, bird Enterprises asking for a 50

[1:36:49] foot square pylon sign.

[1:36:52] My assumption was that the sign that that was taken down

[1:36:57] back in April, my assumption was that was gonna be the one

[1:37:00] that was gonna be, you know, put back up.

[1:37:03] And at the last,

[1:37:05] I think it was the last meeting in May, I think Mr.

[1:37:08] You know, they were discussing the, the size of it.

[1:37:11] I think Mr. Corbett came up

[1:37:12] with 42 square feet for the sign. Which,

[1:37:15] And I'm sorry to interrupt.

[1:37:16] I was gonna state this

[1:37:17] after I was incorrect on my measurements.

[1:37:19] What's that? I was incorrect on my measurements last time.

[1:37:21] You're incorrect. So I was going to bring that up.

[1:37:24] So thank you for leading. Sorry to interrupt.

[1:37:26] It is a 60 by one 20.

[1:37:29] Oh, it was 65.

[1:37:30] No, 60 feet, or sorry, 60 inches by 120 inches.

[1:37:33] So I then have to do the math, but I was off on my, all

[1:37:36] Right, so that's 50 square foot?

[1:37:39] Yes. Okay. And just to be clear, that's also two signs.

[1:37:43] One for each enterprise.

[1:37:45] Okay. Gotcha. Okay. Okay.

[1:37:46] So they're essentially 60 by 60 size signs.

[1:37:49] Okay. All right. Well that, that clarifies, that gets rid

[1:37:52] of my, my first paragraph here.

[1:37:54] So I do apologize to that confusion

[1:37:56] by No, that, that's quite all right.

[1:37:57] I just wanna make sure the information was correct.

[1:37:59] So I was kind of unsure as to exactly what a pylon sign was.

[1:38:03] So I did look up a couple of definitions of a pylon sign.

[1:38:08] You know, as a pylon sign is a tall,

[1:38:10] freestanding outdoor sign supported by one or more steel

[1:38:13] or aluminum poles, typically exceeding eight feet in height

[1:38:17] and offer high visibility from a distance commonly used

[1:38:20] for shopping centers, gas station hotels, near highways

[1:38:24] that are often internally illuminated.

[1:38:28] The other one was a pylon of signs of freestanding

[1:38:31] advertising structure supported by one

[1:38:33] or two vertical signs.

[1:38:34] The sign is prominently from the ground,

[1:38:37] often visible from across multiple lanes or intersections.

[1:38:39] This makes them particularly valuable for businesses located

[1:38:44] near high speed roads or large parking areas.

[1:38:46] And you know, to me the, you know, the pylon sign is really

[1:38:51] for a commercial area and,

[1:38:52] and definitely not for a, not for a neighborhood.

[1:38:58] And I'm not gonna read one section,

[1:39:00] I'm not gonna read section 1 65 1 0 1 0.1

[1:39:04] 'cause I know we've all read it.

[1:39:05] But I just do wanna point out two things.

[1:39:07] And one of us says, you know,

[1:39:09] the sign does not exceed 24 square feet in area

[1:39:13] and one unlit sign.

[1:39:16] So, you know, clearly the, the ordinance is, wants

[1:39:20] to limit the size and the scope

[1:39:22] of signs in a, in a neighborhood.

[1:39:26] I think the sign is contrary to the spirit of the ordinance

[1:39:28] and is not consistent

[1:39:29] with the character of the neighborhood.

[1:39:33] You know, I know Mr. Yco had, had stated in a,

[1:39:36] in a previous meeting that, that it was a hardship

[1:39:39] for him not having the sign.

[1:39:41] And I, I thought about that last week

[1:39:42] and I was like, if I'm, if I'm looking for a facility for,

[1:39:48] you know, for baseball

[1:39:50] and I have a kid that I want him to him

[1:39:53] or her to access their, their

[1:39:58] baseball skills, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go online

[1:40:01] and I'm gonna look for, for a, a facility that does that.

[1:40:04] So I did like, so I googled

[1:40:06] baseball training facilities in Southern New Hampshire.

[1:40:09] And there was, there was, there was a few of 'em.

[1:40:11] There was the one in Exeter,

[1:40:14] there was a couple in Manchester, one in Epping, man,

[1:40:19] Nashua, and of course in dairy.

[1:40:21] So I googled four of them and they all had pretty good ones.

[1:40:26] They all had had pretty good websites.

[1:40:28] But I, I looked at, I looked at, at, at

[1:40:33] Northeast Elite Athletics

[1:40:35] and it stated that it empowers athletes of all ages

[1:40:38] to reach their highest potential in a supportive environment

[1:40:42] where athletes can develop skills, build character,

[1:40:44] and grow with confidence.

[1:40:46] If I'm looking for a baseball facility for my kid to go to,

[1:40:48] that's gonna be the one that I'm gonna look at first.

[1:40:51] I mean, they had an excellent website.

[1:40:53] I have to compliment 'em for that.

[1:40:55] But my point about all this is,

[1:40:58] is it's not gonna be the sign

[1:40:59] that really is gonna be the draw.

[1:41:00] You know, you're gonna look at the, you,

[1:41:02] you're gonna look at, you're gonna look at the website.

[1:41:05] Other people, you're gonna speak to people

[1:41:06] that might go there and, you know, the website is the draw.

[1:41:11] Google map will get 'em there.

[1:41:13] And a sign certainly is gonna be what they're going to look

[1:41:17] for when they, when they finally get there.

[1:41:20] So do they deserve a sign?

[1:41:21] You know, without question, I think everybody realizes they

[1:41:23] need a sign, you know, and,

[1:41:26] and in all honesty,

[1:41:27] Byrd Enterprise is not a bad fit for the area.

[1:41:31] I mean, I think it could be,

[1:41:33] I think it could be a lot worse.

[1:41:34] And, you know, I hope this sign mess gets straightened out

[1:41:38] for them sooner or later.

[1:41:41] And, you know, I, I do wish 'em the best,

[1:41:43] but I, I think the 50 foot square foot

[1:41:47] pylon sign is really not in

[1:41:49] best interest of the neighborhood. Thank you.

[1:41:51] Hang on a second. Anybody have any questions?

[1:41:55] If, if the board approves this

[1:41:57] Yeah.

[1:41:58] How, how do you become aggrieved by it?

[1:42:02] I can say probably not.

[1:42:05] Okay. Well we accept the testimony

[1:42:07] and understand we try to find direct abutters,

[1:42:10] which is usually our cue.

[1:42:11] But I, this question gets looked over

[1:42:15] and being somebody that probably travels down

[1:42:18] that road frequently all the time, you know, I,

[1:42:21] I feel gives you a window to be able express your feelings

[1:42:24] and thank you.

[1:42:25] Think they're articulated well.

[1:42:27] No, I appreciate that. I know I'm not a direct letter.

[1:42:29] Alright. Very good. Thank you. Yep. Anybody else?

[1:42:36] This is just opposition right now.

[1:42:51] Good evening.

[1:42:53] Good evening Will Davison one.

[1:42:54] Wishing Hu Lane Director butter speaking in opposition

[1:42:58] of the proposed sign.

[1:43:00] Wanna be clear? I'm a hundred percent opposed

[1:43:03] to this sign the size of the sign.

[1:43:08] As you know, we had an opportunity

[1:43:09] to see this sign in place without the reader board

[1:43:12] for several months without the reader board on

[1:43:19] it did not and still does not fit

[1:43:21] the character of the neighborhood.

[1:43:23] The sign is visible for more than half of the year

[1:43:26] in my house in my yard.

[1:43:30] I could see it clearly from many windows

[1:43:34] and in many places within my yard.

[1:43:38] And that's between November one and mid-May.

[1:43:43] Allowing this oversized sign is

[1:43:45] of this scale simply does not make sense in this area.

[1:43:50] I also agree to testimony from several neighbors

[1:43:54] last time that we were here

[1:43:56] that this song sign just does not belong here.

[1:44:00] Others have documented opposition, including Andrew

[1:44:04] and Jessica than nearby.

[1:44:07] Business signs are far more reasonable in size

[1:44:11] and these businesses have been in successful within our

[1:44:15] area for decades.

[1:44:18] So the, the size of the sign that they have

[1:44:22] is far more reasonable.

[1:44:24] That was documented through Andrew's

[1:44:29] photos that he put in place.

[1:44:33] As a reminder, my realtor had told, told us

[1:44:36] that our property value was ta already taken hit just simply

[1:44:39] because the business is there.

[1:44:43] They also provided a letter

[1:44:44] that the oversight sign would add additional

[1:44:48] devaluation of my property.

[1:44:51] We submitted that documentation within

[1:44:54] the original proposal.

[1:44:56] I have copies of it here to resubmit tonight.

[1:44:59] So you have that on record.

[1:45:04] I understand that this proposal may ultimately be approved.

[1:45:10] If that happens, then the board owes it to the entire town.

[1:45:12] That to state clearly

[1:45:14] and specifically what is being approved

[1:45:16] and how that approval satisfies the five requirements.

[1:45:23] I also think that the, the board owes to the town

[1:45:28] and the neighbors clear interpretation

[1:45:32] of what's being approved left to being vague,

[1:45:37] already caused many problems.

[1:45:39] Right? So this last time around very vague of

[1:45:41] what was approved, very prob problematic to everybody.

[1:45:45] So I think, you know, we really need

[1:45:49] to have clear definition of exactly the size of the sign.

[1:45:54] Whether the signs should be backlit, the maximum,

[1:45:57] maximum brightness of the signs.

[1:46:02] Who's measuring the brightness of these signs

[1:46:05] when they get measured?

[1:46:06] How often, because we've heard testimony

[1:46:09] that there's the ability to turn it up

[1:46:11] and down now so that that could be an issue.

[1:46:17] That, and then the hours, these signs will be illuminated.

[1:46:22] These details should not be left open

[1:46:25] to interpretation or manipulation.

[1:46:30] This, this concern also applies

[1:46:32] to the two already very large signs on the building,

[1:46:35] which I find very intrusive from my house.

[1:46:37] Very, you know, they're very large.

[1:46:40] I have pictures that I can provide from my yard.

[1:46:45] I still don't know exactly what was approved the first time

[1:46:47] for those signs on the building,

[1:46:49] whether they should have been back lit,

[1:46:52] how large they should have been.

[1:46:55] I don't know if any of us know what was actually approved.

[1:47:01] Having a clear definition of is very paramount to

[1:47:07] make us all aware of what should be, you know,

[1:47:11] what we're being approved tonight.

[1:47:19] So I'm a little lost in my words here.

[1:47:21] So, for the reasons I asked the board

[1:47:22] to deny this request tonight, if the board chooses

[1:47:26] to approve it, then I ask

[1:47:28] that the approval be narrowly written, fully defined,

[1:47:31] and enforceable in clear terms so that residents

[1:47:34] and applicants and the town all understand

[1:47:37] exactly what is permitted.

[1:47:42] Lastly, I just want to say that the public

[1:47:47] input matters when abuts come forward.

[1:47:51] They deserve the board's full attention and respect.

[1:47:56] I hope the concerns raised

[1:47:58] by the residents are taken seriously

[1:47:59] and reflected in the care.

[1:48:01] Careful, transparent decisions you folks make tonight.

[1:48:09] Wasn't very happy about the last meeting

[1:48:11] and some actions that I had seen

[1:48:16] with the abutters when they came to, to sit here and speak.

[1:48:20] It felt as though it didn't even feel I saw people,

[1:48:26] the, your board members on their cell phone on iPads,

[1:48:30] heads down doodling when the Abutter spoke.

[1:48:35] And it was a different story when the applicant

[1:48:38] applicant came and spoke.

[1:48:42] You're referring to the May 7th,

[1:48:45] The last meeting. Yep.

[1:48:46] I, I think one thing you might look at is that,

[1:48:49] and I think this gets,

[1:48:50] I I don't wanna take you off your points

[1:48:52] 'cause I want to address 'em all,

[1:48:53] but there are calculations going on as,

[1:48:57] as there's testimony given it's even now I'm writing every,

[1:49:01] all your points and I want to address 'em.

[1:49:04] But it's writing or working on the details of it. Okay.

[1:49:08] No one's watching the Red Sox. Okay. For two reasons.

[1:49:12] One, 'cause they're here because

[1:49:13] they're not very good this year.

[1:49:15] Totally agree with that. Rough year. Rough year.

[1:49:21] Did you con, did you, that concludes

[1:49:23] what I wanted to kind of say.

[1:49:25] Alright.

[1:49:27] How many copies of The letter do you have? I have

[1:49:29] Six.

[1:49:30] There's gonna be, so is this the same

[1:49:32] letter that from last year?

[1:49:33] Okay. That's in the file and don't, okay. But I

[1:49:35] Thought that we couldn't bring stuff from that to this.

[1:49:38] I'll make a motion because we

[1:49:39] couldn't talk about that last meeting

[1:49:40] In this meeting.

[1:49:41] That's, it's, it's still in the file as part

[1:49:43] of the testimony, but we can accept it. Yeah, I'll

[1:49:45] Make a motion to accept it.

[1:49:46] Okay. We can it over? Yeah. I got a second.

[1:49:49] Jim, can you second that second my motion

[1:49:52] to, to accept the document.

[1:49:55] Second. Thank you.

[1:49:58] My name's Brenda Davison. I live at one wishing well.

[1:50:01] Lane again. Brenda Davison.

[1:50:04] I live at one wishing well. Lane,

[1:50:07] I still can't understand you.

[1:50:09] David Davidson at one wishing well. Lane. Thank you.

[1:50:11] Talking, wishing, Wishing well. Oh, thank you

[1:50:15] Again.

[1:50:16] I'm against it. I've been against it since the beginning.

[1:50:19] The whole sign, not just the message board.

[1:50:24] And I'm really having trouble trying to figure out

[1:50:28] when I read these five criteria,

[1:50:33] how he's meeting those.

[1:50:36] IJI just, I spent a lot of time today like reading 'em

[1:50:39] and I'm not sure you know him saying

[1:50:42] that he's losing business, he's not gonna get

[1:50:45] as many people in there.

[1:50:47] That has nothing to do with the variance,

[1:50:51] financial gain, any of that.

[1:50:54] It's not a hardship.

[1:50:56] So I don't think that meets the criteria.

[1:51:02] It should be a land-based hardship.

[1:51:06] He has room to put a sign. He doesn't need a big, huge sign.

[1:51:12] So

[1:51:13] Can I, can I get you to pause there

[1:51:15] and I don't want to take you off your points.

[1:51:18] Your husband will Right. Made some points.

[1:51:22] Let's work through those and then we'll come back around.

[1:51:24] Okay. 'cause I think some of what I'm hearing on your,

[1:51:28] from your point of view, you know, we'll come back

[1:51:32] to the board's deliberation on those points.

[1:51:37] But I'm also hearing some things that you're starting to say

[1:51:40] that may get cleared up as I address your husband's issues.

[1:51:44] Okay? Okay. The,

[1:51:49] the view of the sign and from November to May, is that

[1:51:53] because it was lighted or was that

[1:51:55] because of Its, its existence.

[1:51:58] It's huge size. Okay. And and

[1:52:02] There's no leaves on the trees that time either.

[1:52:05] Yeah. So you're referencing the, just the size overall

[1:52:09] as the biggest issue for you on that, in

[1:52:11] that timeframe that you see it.

[1:52:14] So I, let me address it two ways.

[1:52:17] One, the current size is way too large for where we live

[1:52:21] and it doesn't meet the character

[1:52:25] of where that sits.

[1:52:28] Secondly, the brightness

[1:52:29] of the signs when they were lit were ridiculous.

[1:52:33] I understand. So the brightness part is why I, I asked

[1:52:37] for clarity on the November to may issue, which is,

[1:52:40] which is referencing the lighting.

[1:52:42] So if there's no lighting on that size on that sign

[1:52:45] as it sits still on it, this is still an issue for you.

[1:52:49] Yep. The size is still not acceptable.

[1:52:51] Height and, and because of height

[1:52:53] or what is the girth? Girth. Okay.

[1:52:56] You still see it from our house. What's girth round?

[1:53:01] The large, the largeness of it. The total

[1:53:03] Volume. Total

[1:53:04] Volume of it.

[1:53:05] Right. So it's 65 square, square feet I think,

[1:53:09] what was the new math?

[1:53:11] 62 6 2 5 by, sorry.

[1:53:15] Two 60 inch by 60 inch signs.

[1:53:16] So it comes out to about 2 25 square inch.

[1:53:19] So 50 square feet total.

[1:53:22] I, my drawing says 1 0 2 by 60,

[1:53:26] which is 42 in change.

[1:53:28] Yeah. Then it was, so

[1:53:30] We'll have to get clarification on that after.

[1:53:31] Yeah. 'cause then we got, Carrie pointed me to the new one

[1:53:33] to be looking at last week.

[1:53:35] 'cause that was where I got caught up as well.

[1:53:36] Again, it, this is where I'm looking for clarity is

[1:53:39] what are we approving?

[1:53:41] I, I'm presuming Right, I can't hear you.

[1:53:44] I am, if you could lean to the mic a little bit more for

[1:53:48] Mr.

[1:53:49] Trip. How about now? If I can't hear you, I'll tell you.

[1:53:52] Thank you.

[1:53:55] Rude. So for right now, we'll just go

[1:53:57] that it's 2 25 foot square,

[1:54:01] 25 square foot signs.

[1:54:03] Yep. Okay. If we hear different,

[1:54:06] we hear different from the,

[1:54:08] when the abutter has their second rebuttal.

[1:54:10] Okay. The other signs on the building,

[1:54:16] that ship has sailed.

[1:54:19] But are you indicating

[1:54:20] that those are lit on the building as well?

[1:54:24] Not as of today, but I would assume

[1:54:29] that once approved probably we'll see

[1:54:32] that lights will be back on on some of these signs.

[1:54:41] Okay. Again, I guess again,

[1:54:45] i I don't know clearly what's going to be approved.

[1:54:47] Right, right. So that's part of the problem.

[1:54:51] Yeah, I I get it. We're it's kind of through it, right?

[1:54:55] Sure. And your questions, your concerns.

[1:54:58] The applicant has an opportunity to rebut,

[1:55:00] which will take you back to your wife's where she's leading

[1:55:04] and going towards five criteria

[1:55:06] and how the board evaluates it.

[1:55:08] Right. And, you know, I'm not,

[1:55:12] I'm not just disregarding the broker opinion on this.

[1:55:17] I think you had indicated that when the app,

[1:55:19] former application

[1:55:20] for this property was presented last year, I think you felt

[1:55:26] perhaps my comments were condescending,

[1:55:28] which were not intended that way.

[1:55:31] However, the board

[1:55:33] and higher courts do allow the zoning board

[1:55:38] members to evaluate the, the authenticity

[1:55:42] or the reality of what's presented.

[1:55:44] I understand that the applicant as well has presented a,

[1:55:49] a real estate opinion that contradicts you,

[1:55:53] the one that you've presented.

[1:55:54] Yeah, of course it's not being discarded, but it's

[1:55:57] You're saying my property value's gonna go

[1:55:59] up because of business is there

[1:56:00] No, but I, but I am saying thank you.

[1:56:03] They're, thank you're not, they're, they're saying to you

[1:56:04] that it's, it, their present presentation is

[1:56:07] that it's not necessarily affected in the way that your,

[1:56:10] your has been portrayed.

[1:56:11] Alright. So it's up to the board individually

[1:56:14] to evaluate the reality of that broker opinion.

[1:56:18] Right. Lastly,

[1:56:23] what I'm hearing is the signs in the building are backlit,

[1:56:30] and I think you said on the, on the building, but I wa

[1:56:33] but I think I make that note to the backlight sign.

[1:56:37] You know, Mr. Corbett made a point on the,

[1:56:41] in the last meeting relative to whether

[1:56:43] or not the sign should be backlit

[1:56:46] or it should be external.

[1:56:50] External. I think that there was a comment

[1:56:56] indicating that Mr.

[1:56:58] Corbett may have been being derogatory to the,

[1:57:00] to the community.

[1:57:02] But I, I didn't take it that way. I think Mr.

[1:57:05] Trip has pointed out that in the planning board review,

[1:57:09] the building had been vandalized severely

[1:57:12] fire extinguishers.

[1:57:15] And we do know this to be the case.

[1:57:17] And those images were shown at the planning board.

[1:57:20] So I think the reality is that even though Mr.

[1:57:23] Corbett wasn't going that way, the reality is

[1:57:25] that in his own experiences with small children, Halloween

[1:57:31] kids can run off the beaten path and trip over light.

[1:57:35] So I'm taking it back to your point, which is backlit

[1:57:39] of this, of this current sign that we're dealing with

[1:57:43] or externally lit.

[1:57:46] Do you have an opinion on that? Either way?

[1:57:51] I guess my opinion would be if there were

[1:57:55] a right side sign with some lights kind of

[1:57:59] shining down on this sign from both sides

[1:58:05] probably would be okay.

[1:58:06] Or not popular here,

[1:58:09] but some lights in the ground pointing up to that sign.

[1:58:13] So those are externally lit? Yes. Yeah.

[1:58:16] Okay. My, I just have a question.

[1:58:19] And so my fear with the external light where I brought up,

[1:58:21] and again my, I just wanna reiterate my head was not,

[1:58:24] I'm looking at the pictures of the,

[1:58:26] the bour windows now my head was not there

[1:58:27] when I brought that point up.

[1:58:29] I was really just, we have a projection up at Halloween,

[1:58:31] the kids just knock one of the things over.

[1:58:33] That's where my head was going.

[1:58:34] That if this light got hit, would you be at all worried

[1:58:38] that it would then shine at your house?

[1:58:39] Because that's no, to be honest. Okay.

[1:58:41] 'cause that's honestly my number one concern with that is

[1:58:44] that all of a sudden you have a beacon,

[1:58:45] you know, hitting you in your living room.

[1:58:47] Sure. And, and this isn't about the

[1:58:48] light, this is about the sign.

[1:58:50] Yep. Yep. But that one, that one

[1:58:53] separation has been the one part,

[1:58:54] but the internal external, as I, as we get further with it,

[1:58:59] I think there's, to your point, there's a few things

[1:59:01] that have to be weighed out here and really have

[1:59:03] to be clear, very clearly defined before a yes or a no vote.

[1:59:06] Either way it has to be laid out

[1:59:08] that we're voting yes or no on it.

[1:59:10] And the light is something that I would like just

[1:59:12] to have addressed.

[1:59:14] Like what we saw before is

[1:59:15] that it looks like there is a down lighting,

[1:59:17] there was internal lighting, there's a lot

[1:59:19] of lighting taking place.

[1:59:20] And now what I see is an opportunity, at least

[1:59:23] to your point, to tighten it up

[1:59:25] and now to really get this in and

[1:59:27] before I suggest an external light,

[1:59:29] that's just really something I want to check

[1:59:31] that we're not now putting you in a spot that

[1:59:33] if a year down the road it's there, you're not,

[1:59:36] I curse me one way or another, but not

[1:59:38] because of a beacon, you know,

[1:59:39] shining at you is really just what I'm trying to avoid.

[1:59:42] Sure. Sometimes you have to wear it a little bit though.

[1:59:44] You just don't know until you don't know.

[1:59:47] No, completely understood. And

[1:59:49] that's all I was just asking for this one.

[1:59:51] So now that we've kind of narrowed some

[1:59:54] of these points down as David's not give you back the floor.

[1:59:58] I mean another thing with the, the signs on the building,

[2:00:01] they're really bright.

[2:00:03] There's two, they're pretty big

[2:00:06] and you can see those from the road quite easily.

[2:00:09] Okay. So does he need the big huge pylon sign

[2:00:14] if he has those as well? No, I don don't.

[2:00:16] Could you speak into the microphone?

[2:00:19] So, Okay.

[2:00:22] Yeah, so it's, you know, you're, you're,

[2:00:24] what you're getting at is that the,

[2:00:27] the building has lights on it.

[2:00:29] The signs on the building are lit.

[2:00:33] I think we heard testimony that suggests that

[2:00:36] that's going to be controlled.

[2:00:39] Understanding that the board's review

[2:00:44] in the issues related to the lighting being on as much

[2:00:48] as it was not having enforcement being able to catch up with

[2:00:53] that was a disappointment I think

[2:00:57] to the board in general.

[2:00:58] So I think we're in tune to what you're saying

[2:01:01] and perhaps the balance between the

[2:01:05] signs on the building

[2:01:07] and lights for this sign get evaluated and,

[2:01:12] and look at a balance for

[2:01:13] That.

[2:01:14] Oh, I don't want the big sign.

[2:01:15] I'm sorry. I don't want the the

[2:01:16] huge pylon sign regardless.

[2:01:18] I understand. Okay.

[2:01:24] Oh, Jim's thing. Yep.

[2:01:29] I did have a question about where'd that go?

[2:01:37] Okay. Yeah. Were you gonna let

[2:01:42] other people speak tonight?

[2:01:44] This is the rebuttal for the abutters per board policy.

[2:01:49] Was Mr, would Mr. Foley be allowed to speak tonight? No.

[2:01:52] Okay, then I'm gonna read something for him. Okay. Mr.

[2:01:57] Corbett was incorrect when he stated

[2:01:59] that the plaintiffs didn't prove bias

[2:02:01] during the superior court hearing.

[2:02:03] It was as with so much that case, the lack of a record

[2:02:06] provided by the minutes of those hearings.

[2:02:09] The bias shown by this board is not just in the

[2:02:12] confrontational, dismissive

[2:02:15] and argumentative manner in which the board addresses any

[2:02:18] that oppose the granting of this variance,

[2:02:20] which includes interruptions of statements, accusations

[2:02:23] of filibustering, admonishments

[2:02:26] and anecdotal anecdotal statements in arguing case law.

[2:02:30] None of these behaviors have been directed at the applicant.

[2:02:34] I believe this is a tactic to make us lose our train

[2:02:37] of thought and frustrate us in presenting our case.

[2:02:40] Would also note that not, I would also note

[2:02:43] that only when those

[2:02:44] who oppose the application were presenting Mr.

[2:02:47] Dietzel was on his personal device

[2:02:48] and not appearing to pay attention.

[2:02:51] It's also clear that this board is desperately trying

[2:02:53] to find theory that would allow them

[2:02:56] to get the result they want.

[2:02:58] The board, not the applicant who has the burden

[2:03:01] of proof brought up the issue

[2:03:03] of whether the new variance application was significantly

[2:03:06] different than the previous overturned variance request.

[2:03:09] The board focused on their own actions from the previous

[2:03:12] hearing and not the current application, claiming

[2:03:15] that they had only discussed one part of the sign

[2:03:17] and not the entire sign.

[2:03:19] This is not reflected in minutes of the previous

[2:03:22] and at least two members

[2:03:23] of the previous voted against the sign.

[2:03:26] As for decision that the slightly smaller backlit,

[2:03:30] oversized commercial sign being materially different from

[2:03:34] the previous sign strains credibility

[2:03:37] as both New Hampshire Supreme cases

[2:03:40] and the New Hampshire Municipal Association.

[2:03:42] Handbooks make clear, minor inconsequential tweaks

[2:03:47] like a slight reduction in square footage are rejected

[2:03:52] the strange tangent by this board

[2:03:54] and not by the applicant into the planning board hearing.

[2:03:57] And in some fashion their decision creates a hardship

[2:04:00] that would allow the granting of the variance.

[2:04:03] So like Mr. Tripp,

[2:04:04] although I have no idea why this is relevant,

[2:04:06] watch the video of the planning board hearing,

[2:04:09] have read the minutes and have reviewed the plans submitted

[2:04:12] by the applicant except for a notation on the plans of

[2:04:15] where the old church sign was.

[2:04:17] The applicant does not bring up,

[2:04:19] nor does the planning board discuss

[2:04:20] or place into their finding any mention

[2:04:22] of an oversized backlit commercial sign for the property.

[2:04:26] The notion of how busy Hampstead Road could create a

[2:04:29] hardship is another theory raised by this board,

[2:04:31] which has no basis in law of facts.

[2:04:35] And I, he has copies of stuff

[2:04:37] that he would like submitted for the record.

[2:04:40] I will say I did talk to the planning board director today

[2:04:42] to ask about the sign

[2:04:45] and she said that the sign,

[2:04:49] the old church sign was on the plan

[2:04:53] and that he didn't present that there was a new sign

[2:04:57] or what's the new sign was gonna be.

[2:04:58] And he had told her that when he knows

[2:05:03] what he is doing for a sign, they would go in front

[2:05:04] of the zoning board for it.

[2:05:06] So just to kind of clarify,

[2:05:07] 'cause I know they, somebody said something about the

[2:05:10] planning board should have done it

[2:05:11] or dropped the ball or whatever, but

[2:05:13] I don't, so I did talk to her too.

[2:05:14] We said that they dropped the ball,

[2:05:16] but the site plan does show

[2:05:18] where the new sign would would be

[2:05:20] and it's on that site plan of record.

[2:05:23] So Yeah, I think it just lacked

[2:05:26] of size or anything about it. Right.

[2:05:28] And right. Understand. Apparently

[2:05:29] He told her that.

[2:05:31] So in regards to the statement that you just read,

[2:05:34] let's be clear that's not your statement.

[2:05:36] That is Mr. Foley's.

[2:05:37] What Mr. Foley doesn't seem

[2:05:39] to understand is case law Daniels v London dairy requires

[2:05:43] that the board engage on all points that are presented.

[2:05:46] Otherwise it is applicable for remanding back to the board.

[2:05:52] And so, as Mr. Foley gives his testimony,

[2:05:54] and I'm trying to stop him

[2:05:56] and so I can question certain points he's making,

[2:05:59] same way I've done with both of you.

[2:06:02] He doesn't seem to have the temperament to want

[2:06:04] to hear our questions.

[2:06:06] We don't want to rehear cases,

[2:06:08] but it's Daniel's v London Dairy that creates the, the,

[2:06:13] the path that this board engages

[2:06:15] and asks questions back and forth.

[2:06:18] And I think the false testimony of Mr. Foley both in court

[2:06:23] and in front of his town council

[2:06:24] and then coming up with his accusations as he does, I think

[2:06:29] that paints a larger picture.

[2:06:31] You're saying he lied in court.

[2:06:33] I'm saying he misrepresented points. Hmm.

[2:06:36] Okay. Okay. I think you found,

[2:06:39] I hope you found this engagement fair with you.

[2:06:42] I did. But you guys, I I know fairness,

[2:06:44] you interrupted him a lot.

[2:06:46] Much different all lot tonight than

[2:06:48] what Jim was treated the other night. Yeah. Bang

[2:06:50] A hundred yelling, banging and telling's

[2:06:53] Done.

[2:06:54] He's bringing points up that we have a right to ask him

[2:06:56] for clarity on and he doesn't want to hear any clarity.

[2:06:59] He's already positioned in his mind

[2:07:02] that there's some conspiracy going on versus understanding

[2:07:07] what the process is.

[2:07:08] And I'm willing to bet he doesn't even know

[2:07:10] what Daniel's v London dairy is

[2:07:14] From my point of view.

[2:07:16] I just want to say watching it unfold that night,

[2:07:19] he was interrupted several times, couldn't,

[2:07:22] couldn't gain back his train

[2:07:23] of thought several times. Right.

[2:07:25] Like tonight you waited and you asked at the end

[2:07:28] Much different. Just much different, much

[2:07:30] Different.

[2:07:31] Well he, he throws a lot at you

[2:07:32] and you're trying to bring the temperament down

[2:07:35] and engage in each of those points.

[2:07:39] I, I paused you and Brenda, right? Yeah.

[2:07:44] So I can get clarity on Will's points. Yeah.

[2:07:47] And, and you try to digest these a little bit at a time

[2:07:51] when there's such belligerence coming at you, it's hard

[2:07:55] to get that belligerence to put a pause, make a note of

[2:07:59] where they're at and engage in the questions

[2:08:01] that are being presented.

[2:08:03] Probably vice versa too. I do feel like

[2:08:09] the point he was trying to make was

[2:08:12] we're making this about a sign and not the land use

[2:08:18] and the five criteria that the applicant needs to meet.

[2:08:22] Well he, I think the board's

[2:08:24] gonna come back around to that.

[2:08:25] But one of the comments that I made that he totally

[2:08:28] disagreed and blew off, I don't even know if he heard it,

[2:08:31] which was that these points were discussed.

[2:08:34] They did not get conveyed to the certified record.

[2:08:38] Hence it goes into the next court.

[2:08:41] And some of that record is skewed.

[2:08:44] I don't believe that everything that was was

[2:08:49] provided in the court was accurate.

[2:08:51] But that being said, that engagement occurred,

[2:08:55] the court made its decision.

[2:08:57] And I will also say to you that relative in reflection of

[2:09:00] that decision, it's caused this board

[2:09:04] to take a larger look at this, at these ordinances.

[2:09:10] And I think you're gonna hear that

[2:09:12] as we move forward. Great.

[2:09:14] Can we submit this? What do you for record,

[2:09:17] do you have there Mr. Foley's? Statement?

[2:09:19] Statement and he had some

[2:09:21] Well, I'll tell you what, just give it to Ms.

[2:09:23] Zan and keep it with you Ms. Zan.

[2:09:24] You can put it in the file if you'd like. Alright.

[2:09:27] I think we've heard testimony.

[2:09:29] So any, anything more for me?

[2:09:31] Any questions for these folks? Anybody?

[2:09:34] I know Mr. Trip has one. Mr. Trip.

[2:09:36] Alright, we, me too.

[2:09:39] I I'd like to thank you for coming tonight

[2:09:43] and providing testimony.

[2:09:46] 'cause anything that we can get that clarifies

[2:09:52] what the problem is

[2:09:56] and what a possible resolution would be is appreciated.

[2:10:02] I think some of the suggestions you, you made about

[2:10:09] the verification method of, you know, what the lighting is,

[2:10:14] should there be lighting would be a, a a,

[2:10:19] a good step, a step in the right direction

[2:10:21] because typically we take

[2:10:27] testimony on, you know, lighting

[2:10:30] and the, the applicant presents

[2:10:36] expert testimony as to, you know, what the lumens are

[2:10:41] and when the light's gonna be operated

[2:10:43] and da dah da da, you know,

[2:10:46] and we, we accept that we don't question it, you know,

[2:10:50] because they're experts

[2:10:51] and you know, I, I wouldn't know what Illumina is if

[2:10:55] I saw it, but I

[2:11:01] I have a question for you.

[2:11:05] You said you're on wishing well Road Lane. Yeah.

[2:11:07] Wishing well. Lane Road. I'm sorry. That shows it.

[2:11:13] So this is at the rear of the property, I believe.

[2:11:17] Say Again? The which,

[2:11:18] and well, lane is at the rear of the property.

[2:11:22] It's across the street from

[2:11:23] It directly across the street from the sign

[2:11:26] Di Directly across the street from the building inside.

[2:11:29] I'm sorry, decorate directly across Hampstead Road. Yes.

[2:11:33] Okay. So, so you have a,

[2:11:39] you great view, a fairly good view of it then?

[2:11:42] Yes. This is my view from my front lawn.

[2:11:47] I'm happy to provide this for you. Yes.

[2:11:49] I motion to, to take that.

[2:11:50] I think you guys had mentioned

[2:11:51] that a couple of meetings ago.

[2:11:53] I was hoping to see that. Thank you.

[2:11:56] That's our front lawn, our backyard.

[2:11:58] Second. Thank you Mr.

[2:12:01] All in favor of the accepting the photo. Say aye,

[2:12:04] These Are from the front lawn

[2:12:06] Standing right in my front. I

[2:12:08] Have the pictures from the backyard.

[2:12:09] Alright. When it was lit,

[2:12:14] I, I think one of the things that

[2:12:18] the chairman had mentioned was that

[2:12:25] We were probably half to two thirds through

[2:12:30] one of the hearings when it was mentioned by someone that

[2:12:35] the lights were on 24 hours a day.

[2:12:38] Yes. You know, well I don't drive down window

[2:12:42] Hamstead road a lot, so,

[2:12:44] and I, I barely, rarely go out at night.

[2:12:47] So I would, you know,

[2:12:48] and I think there's a lot of people that on the,

[2:12:50] on the board that would concur with me

[2:12:52] that we were unaware of that.

[2:12:57] You know, I I,

[2:13:00] and I did speak with Carrie

[2:13:05] and she said that they never went out at night to see, so

[2:13:08] that they wouldn't know either, you know, so

[2:13:13] I think if you think

[2:13:17] that we're not listening or,

[2:13:19] or we're antagonistic, you know, there's things that,

[2:13:22] you know, that we're unaware of, you know,

[2:13:26] and it, once we found out

[2:13:29] that the lights were on all the time

[2:13:31] or at the lights on the building were pointed up in the,

[2:13:35] the sky like an aircraft lights, you know,

[2:13:40] we could understand something the, the issues

[2:13:44] that you were having with the lights.

[2:13:45] Yes. My point is clear definition

[2:13:49] of exactly what's being approved so that Yeah.

[2:13:51] So that code enforcement can enforce it. Yeah.

[2:13:55] And we can, we can work with code enforcement if need be.

[2:14:00] Yeah. Well I I believe that's, you know, this part

[2:14:04] of the solution of this problem is that, you know,

[2:14:08] when we first heard this case back in November, you know,

[2:14:12] that information might have been presented.

[2:14:14] I, I don't remember the details of

[2:14:17] what the lumens were gonna be

[2:14:20] or, you know, I do remember that when we approved the plan

[2:14:25] that, or the variance that we asked specifically,

[2:14:30] you know, when the lights were gonna be on

[2:14:38] and, and some other details, you know, that,

[2:14:43] like I said, I don't go out there to, to verify

[2:14:46] that stuff, you know?

[2:14:49] I get it. Yep.

[2:14:50] And if, if you would've,

[2:14:56] you know, let the code enforcement officer,

[2:14:59] we did know a little bit sooner then.

[2:15:06] So if you'd like to revisit that there,

[2:15:10] there's testimony of people going to code enforcement

[2:15:14] and code enforcement sending letters, sending emails,

[2:15:18] stopping by, knocking at the door.

[2:15:20] And Mr.

[2:15:23] Yco saying, I never received a letter,

[2:15:25] nobody knocked on my door.

[2:15:26] Nobody called, I never received an email.

[2:15:28] So there's a, he said, she said

[2:15:31] situation there all on its own.

[2:15:33] That kind of materialized

[2:15:36] during the LA two meetings ago, I believe.

[2:15:39] And I didn't want to visit that.

[2:15:43] But since you bring it up,

[2:15:45] that's my fear is non-compliance.

[2:15:48] How do we fix something that we don't even, first

[2:15:52] of all know what it is?

[2:15:54] And then second of all, code enfor,

[2:15:56] code enforcements not there at night.

[2:15:58] They don't have the, they don't have the

[2:16:00] light meter to check it.

[2:16:02] The town doesn't own something to check this.

[2:16:04] So how do you, how do you enforce it?

[2:16:06] So all, all I'm looking for is how do you do those things

[2:16:12] in order to keep the neighbors happy

[2:16:16] and the business happy with how they can run their business.

[2:16:19] I guess my thoughts are as kind of a smaller m smaller sign

[2:16:23] and some something less bright

[2:16:25] and lit than what's there today.

[2:16:27] That's how I see it. Yeah,

[2:16:29] You're legitimately concerned about the compliance issue.

[2:16:32] I think the testimony that was given in early April, I think

[2:16:37] bothered the board to hear that that was occurring

[2:16:41] stipulations with, in, you know,

[2:16:43] the prior case relative to this parcel.

[2:16:47] A lot of focus was on the electronic messaging sign portion

[2:16:51] of this, which I think is where

[2:16:53] the board's eyes has have opened up relative to three pages

[2:16:58] of sign ordinances

[2:16:59] and kind of getting a better comprehension

[2:17:02] of the whole ordinance stipulations regarding signs

[2:17:07] and where they're going to go

[2:17:08] or what they, what's appropriate.

[2:17:11] And I think that's, that this case has been one of those

[2:17:14] that has been more reflective in that regard.

[2:17:18] The hours of operation

[2:17:20] for the electronic messaging sign were stipulated

[2:17:23] and I think, and were, were a lot

[2:17:26] of discussions about 'em almost a year ago

[2:17:28] when it was brought forward.

[2:17:30] And that's why the disappointment of the board has been,

[2:17:35] been made and not, you know, within itself and,

[2:17:39] and understandably bothersome to every member of the board.

[2:17:43] So I appreciate that The, you know,

[2:17:46] I think there's appropriate fines in this regard.

[2:17:49] I think that as we,

[2:17:52] as staff has started to get a better feel of the, the road

[2:17:56] that they deal with, there are fines that are associated

[2:18:00] with non-compliance and I think we're better suited now.

[2:18:06] I think Mrs. Owen has indicated that we are more equipped

[2:18:10] to be able to measure the things

[2:18:12] that you're bringing forward

[2:18:13] and to monitor it better down the road.

[2:18:16] So to that regard, there's a lot of transitions going on

[2:18:20] and none of them are conspiratorial.

[2:18:23] Thank you. Alright, any questions?

[2:18:26] Just one thing, not a question,

[2:18:27] but just for clarity's sake.

[2:18:30] I don't want, I, I write a lot when you guys are up talking,

[2:18:33] mostly all of the abutters.

[2:18:34] I don't want it to come across that I'm doodling

[2:18:36] and I hope that's not the case.

[2:18:37] Just a peek behind the curtain.

[2:18:38] And not that you guys need to see all the sausages made.

[2:18:41] A lot of what I do is just, I'm documenting

[2:18:42] what's being said, what we're seeing.

[2:18:44] And then a lot of it is I try to write down all

[2:18:47] of your testimony really as much as I can to go through

[2:18:49] to make sure that we try to, you know,

[2:18:51] it's about four years cases to make sure we go through

[2:18:52] and try to hit each of the topics.

[2:18:54] A lot of the time I'll highlight

[2:18:56] or underline a few things I might be thinking of

[2:18:58] that you touch upon, but it's usually to reiterate a point

[2:19:00] and just so you, not necessarily

[2:19:02] with the camera, but so you guys see it.

[2:19:04] Also, when I'm on my phone, I'm usually pulling up Google

[2:19:06] Earth and this one was to see a view from,

[2:19:08] honestly just from your property so I can get more of a feel

[2:19:10] as you're talking to see what you're going with.

[2:19:12] Appreciate. So it's just for the general audience

[2:19:13] that if you do see that, I don't want it

[2:19:15] to come across as disrespectful.

[2:19:17] It's truly me trying to think that I'm trying

[2:19:18] to get myself in your shoes and really look at it

[2:19:20] from that point of view as well.

[2:19:21] So, apologize for any, just how that comes across.

[2:19:24] I didn't really think of it that way, Mr.

[2:19:26] Chair. Mr. Dietza,

[2:19:28] Since my name was invoked in that conversation,

[2:19:30] I'd like to respond as well.

[2:19:32] I take notes. I try to get it as carefully, closely to

[2:19:36] what you're saying is I can, so

[2:19:38] that I can respond appropriately.

[2:19:40] I bring up on my iPad the five criteria so I can judge

[2:19:44] what you're saying against the five criteria.

[2:19:47] I also use Google Maps like Mr. Corbit.

[2:19:50] We're not being an an attentive

[2:19:53] or disrespectful to your testimony.

[2:19:56] I am listening with open ears at all times.

[2:20:00] So if you have that misperception,

[2:20:01] I'd like to clear that up.

[2:20:03] Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[2:20:04] You're welcome. Mr. Donlin, anything You all set?

[2:20:09] I'm all set. Mr. Chair.

[2:20:10] Okay. And Mr. Mor is Mr. Henry. Any questions? Mr.

[2:20:15] O Bimba or Mr. Dani? You all set? I'm all set chair.

[2:20:19] Okay, good enough. Can

[2:20:20] I ask one last question?

[2:20:21] Sure. Are any of you baseball coaches for youth or,

[2:20:26] or any of the surrounding community for baseball?

[2:20:31] Yes, I'm part of the Rec Dairy Rec Dairy

[2:20:33] Diamond. I coach for the

[2:20:34] Aaa.

[2:20:35] And do you send kids, do you send kids to this camp? No,

[2:20:38] Not to the camp. Do

[2:20:39] You refer parents to his, to this camp

[2:20:42] or to NEA at all?

[2:20:44] No, I've mentioned NEA 'cause I know kids who play in it.

[2:20:47] I've mentioned that kids play for NEA,

[2:20:49] like when we compete against them,

[2:20:50] there are some pitchers in the majors level that we see,

[2:20:53] but I don't do any business with them. Okay.

[2:20:55] I'm also a baseball coach in town

[2:20:57] and I didn't know this business existed

[2:21:00] until this came before us.

[2:21:01] Okay, thank you. Is

[2:21:03] that this current case or the former one?

[2:21:05] Mr. Donley?

[2:21:07] I wasn't present for the former one.

[2:21:08] Oh, got it. Okay. Alright. All set?

[2:21:12] Yep. Thank you. Very

[2:21:13] Good.

[2:21:14] Alright, I think Mrs.

[2:21:17] Ro, I'll ask your husband

[2:21:21] to stay back

[2:21:32] just for protocol.

[2:21:34] You know we're in rebuttal for butters,

[2:21:37] so this is that protocol.

[2:21:38] Okay. Okay.

[2:21:39] Alright. Alright. My name's Jessica Cloutier.

[2:21:44] I live at 1 6 4 Hampstead Road.

[2:21:47] Tonight I prepared a speech again.

[2:21:52] So at the April zoning board meeting,

[2:21:54] I explained why I believe Bird Enterprises did not meet any

[2:21:57] of the five conditions required for a variance.

[2:22:00] Tonight I am only going to focus on one issue as I don't,

[2:22:04] so I don't take up too much of your time.

[2:22:06] And that issue would be hardship.

[2:22:08] After sitting through these meetings, it seems

[2:22:11] that applicant's main argument is

[2:22:12] that they need this large backlit pylon sign

[2:22:16] so people can find the business.

[2:22:18] I would have to disagree that this type

[2:22:20] of sign is necessary.

[2:22:22] As I mentioned at the April meeting, I visited several

[2:22:27] similar landscaping and nursery businesses around town

[2:22:30] and took photos of those signs.

[2:22:33] Not one of them has this type

[2:22:35] of oversized back lit bylaw sign being requested here.

[2:22:39] One example is Spring Look Farm on Island Pond Road here in

[2:22:43] Derry, they have been in business for decades,

[2:22:46] despite being approximately 860 feet from the road

[2:22:50] and only partially visible for from passing traffic.

[2:22:54] They have managed to operate successfully all these years

[2:22:56] without a large industrial sign.

[2:22:58] Meanwhile, bird Enterprises is located on a much busier

[2:23:02] roadway and only 300 feet from the road

[2:23:05] with a large open lot that includes over 400 feet

[2:23:09] of unobstructed road frontage

[2:23:11] where the business is clearly visible to passing traffic.

[2:23:16] If all these types of businesses in town have this wooden

[2:23:18] type sign that is externally lit that fit the character

[2:23:23] of this town, why does this location need such an oversized

[2:23:27] 16 foot tall industrial type sign to draw people in?

[2:23:31] The sign is inconsistent with the residential character

[2:23:34] the ordinance is designed to protect.

[2:23:37] To me, this shows that there is no true hardship inherited

[2:23:41] to the property itself.

[2:23:43] The issue is not visibility, it is simply a preference

[2:23:47] for a larger and more commercial style sign.

[2:23:51] A hardship must come from the land itself, not from a desire

[2:23:54] for a more prominent advertising.

[2:23:58] I'll just briefly go over the five conditions

[2:24:00] and how he meets none of them.

[2:24:04] And I'm gonna read from your application

[2:24:08] for a variance to be granted, you must show that your

[2:24:12] proposal meets all five of the conditions outlined below.

[2:24:16] Condition one. There shall be no decrease in value

[2:24:19] of surrounding properties

[2:24:22] and property values would decline if

[2:24:26] that sign remains there

[2:24:28] because, sorry.

[2:24:34] 'cause property values decline when a quiet residential area

[2:24:37] becomes to look and feel more commercial condition.

[2:24:41] Two, granting the variance would be

[2:24:43] in the public's interest.

[2:24:46] I would have to disagree

[2:24:47] because when referring to the public best interest,

[2:24:50] that also include all abutters

[2:24:52] and everyone else in the surrounding neighborhoods.

[2:24:55] And we get no benefit from a private business

[2:24:57] installing a commercial sign.

[2:24:59] This type of sign brings light pollution, traffic,

[2:25:02] distractions, and disruption to a residential area.

[2:25:05] Public interest lies in preserving neighborhood character,

[2:25:10] not promoting commercial activity

[2:25:12] and zones not meant for it.

[2:25:15] Condition three, A hardship must exist,

[2:25:18] which is inherent in the land in question.

[2:25:20] And I've already gone over that condition. Four.

[2:25:24] By granting the variance substantial justice will be done,

[2:25:30] the gain to the business in this situation is far

[2:25:35] outweighed by the harm to the residents

[2:25:38] by the property value decreasing piece

[2:25:41] and light

[2:25:42] pollution in condition five.

[2:25:46] The use must not be contrary to the spirit

[2:25:49] and intent of the ordinance.

[2:25:51] The spirit of the ordinance is

[2:25:52] to separate residential and commercial use.

[2:25:55] The ordinance is designed to promote the health, safety,

[2:25:59] and welfare of residents.

[2:26:00] Granting this variance would undermine the entire purpose

[2:26:04] of residential zoning.

[2:26:08] For these reasons, I respectfully urge the board

[2:26:11] to deny the 16 foot tall pylon sign in this residential

[2:26:15] district and urge the a applicant to rethink the type

[2:26:18] of sign for the location and go, sorry,

[2:26:22] and go for one that is better suited for this area.

[2:26:28] That is all.

[2:26:30] So when you, you know,

[2:26:33] you've heard the Davidsons come

[2:26:37] and their points of view

[2:26:39] and the exchange with that,

[2:26:45] what is acceptable to you in this regard?

[2:26:49] Well, of course I don't have the pictures with me tonight,

[2:26:52] but when I went around town looking at other businesses

[2:26:57] of this type, I came to find that this town,

[2:27:03] but fits the character is more of like,

[2:27:06] of a wooden sign kind of, and it's externally lit.

[2:27:10] Like I have small pictures with me. Sorry. That's fine.

[2:27:15] I feel like that is much more suited for our area

[2:27:18] and fits the character.

[2:27:22] The signs that Andrew Rose brought forward

[2:27:28] have been verified,

[2:27:29] I think the spring look you've referred to.

[2:27:33] And those, the, some

[2:27:35] of these signs are larger than the permitted signs

[2:27:38] that are established in the ordinances,

[2:27:42] but those were used as references as to

[2:27:45] what would be acceptable.

[2:27:47] But that's the size.

[2:27:49] And you're describing different,

[2:27:53] a different design, so to speak.

[2:27:55] A wooden sign, I think Meadowbrook,

[2:27:58] the sign down at Meadowbrook, not the horse farm,

[2:28:00] but the other one is externally lit.

[2:28:03] That's a wooden sign.

[2:28:05] It's rotted and,

[2:28:07] but it is in the, in the 24 square foot size.

[2:28:13] Many of the other signs that have been spoken of are,

[2:28:17] are different variations.

[2:28:19] You have a sign that is six tenths

[2:28:23] of a mile away from this location and that sign is backlit

[2:28:28] and it is I think 40 square feet in

[2:28:31] size that I know of.

[2:28:34] There was no permit issued for that, that sign at the time.

[2:28:38] But I think you are starting to understand

[2:28:42] in some perspective that the signs that have been presented

[2:28:47] as a rational existence aren't quite

[2:28:52] matching all the ordinances as they're depicted either.

[2:28:58] So in that

[2:28:59] and in that regard, also understanding what I've portrayed

[2:29:03] to the other speaker, Mr.

[2:29:06] Cardin, I would ask, whereas you are not a direct abutter,

[2:29:11] how would you be agreed by this if the board

[2:29:15] ruled favorably for the applicant?

[2:29:19] Well, I do live pretty close to it,

[2:29:23] but it would affect, it, it,

[2:29:26] it already affects the neighborhood to be honest though.

[2:29:29] In which way? It just,

[2:29:33] the noise, the atmosphere in general is louder.

[2:29:37] There's more traffic. There's, I feel like

[2:29:42] by adding a sign of this type, it's just

[2:29:45] would change the character even more.

[2:29:49] Like right now it feels like a residential neighborhood,

[2:29:51] but once you come across that sign, it's almost like you're,

[2:29:56] you would think you're almost coming into an area

[2:29:58] where it's more commercial.

[2:30:01] Okay. It, it changes the vibe of the neighborhood.

[2:30:04] I'm sorry, I don't know really how to

[2:30:06] That.

[2:30:07] So, you know, I think we've talked about that this is not

[2:30:09] a quaint neighborhood.

[2:30:11] It's a major th throughway right? Or passageway.

[2:30:16] I think you've stated the five criteria

[2:30:18] and how this doesn't comply,

[2:30:21] but your, your position on this,

[2:30:24] how you would be aggrieved is based on the fact

[2:30:27] that it's agitated neighbors that doesn't fit

[2:30:31] the five criteria either.

[2:30:33] Well, it changes the character of the neighborhood.

[2:30:35] That's, I'm not saying it agitates us. Okay. It's, it's,

[2:30:40] It's, it's not responsible

[2:30:41] for an increase in traffic either.

[2:30:43] Right. We know that that's a busy road.

[2:30:45] And Olson road intersection has been a,

[2:30:49] a hazardous location as well,

[2:30:51] Correct?

[2:30:52] Well, his work trucks have definitely brought more

[2:30:55] traffic to the intersection.

[2:30:57] I, I see. Okay. So I'm sorry Mr.

[2:31:00] Corbet, I, I said to myself the nursery. Okay, sorry.

[2:31:02] Alright, got it. Anybody have any questions? Mr

[2:31:07] Trip?

[2:31:08] I, I guess I have a question.

[2:31:13] Do you believe that he should be able

[2:31:15] to operate in his business there?

[2:31:19] Does that really matter In this case?

[2:31:20] We're talking about the sign.

[2:31:22] Say again? Does that really matter?

[2:31:24] In this case, we're talking about the sign.

[2:31:28] Well, I believe that

[2:31:34] a business owner has a right to advertise

[2:31:39] his location and his products. Yes. So if, if,

[2:31:44] I'm not saying that he shouldn't have any sign,

[2:31:46] I'm just saying the type of sign he has is not suited

[2:31:49] for this area.

[2:31:50] Okay. But can we go back to my question?

[2:31:53] Do you think he should be allowed

[2:31:55] to operate a business there?

[2:31:58] It's a location he chose to be

[2:31:59] and the planning board allowed it. So,

[2:32:02] Say again?

[2:32:04] I didn't hear you.

[2:32:06] I said the planning board allowed it

[2:32:10] and he chose to be there.

[2:32:12] Well actually the planning board permitted

[2:32:17] acknowledged that a nursing

[2:32:22] is permitted by RSA, I don't remember what the number is.

[2:32:26] Statute. Statute.

[2:32:28] And the ordinances permitted

[2:32:32] the operation of the school.

[2:32:34] So it's not, it's not the planning board that

[2:32:38] permitted those uses.

[2:32:41] It was

[2:32:42] By Right by right.

[2:32:44] Yes. So, okay.

[2:32:46] That's, so you think that he should have a right

[2:32:50] to operate those businesses there?

[2:32:55] I don't think they fit under the categories

[2:32:56] that were listed, but

[2:32:58] that's just my opinion. It's not a school.

[2:33:02] Say Again? It's not a school.

[2:33:06] The town believes it's a school.

[2:33:08] Hmm. No, because,

[2:33:12] And I would have to Disagree.

[2:33:13] The thing with that I'm trying to get to is that

[2:33:18] he is permitted to operate two businesses there.

[2:33:23] One being the nursery and the other being the school.

[2:33:28] You know, I, I believe he also should be permitted

[2:33:32] to advertise his location and the products being offered.

[2:33:37] You know, so,

[2:33:41] but it, like I said, it goes back to Do you think

[2:33:45] that he should be permitted to operate a business there?

[2:33:49] I don't think it belongs in the neighborhood, no.

[2:33:52] Okay. Thank you Mr. Dietzel. Any questions?

[2:33:57] No, thank you Mr. Chair. Mr. Donlin?

[2:34:00] No, thank you. Mr. Chair. You also Mr. Corbert? Yes.

[2:34:04] I think Mr. Cloutier, sorry Ms.

[2:34:06] Cloutier did a good job re reiterating on the signs

[2:34:11] and the signs that'll fit in the

[2:34:12] area. I thank you for the testimony.

[2:34:14] Thank you. I also have another statement that I would like

[2:34:18] to read if possible.

[2:34:19] Okay. Is it poignant to this? Yes. Okay.

[2:34:23] Alright. Members of the board, I would like

[2:34:26] to briefly address something

[2:34:27] that was discussed at our previous meeting.

[2:34:29] That the variance request should be viewed as a use variance

[2:34:33] and not an area variance.

[2:34:35] My understanding that an area variance generally concerns

[2:34:38] dimensional requirements such as size, height,

[2:34:42] lighting, and replacement.

[2:34:43] While a use variance concerns a use

[2:34:46] of elsewise not permitted in this district, in either case,

[2:34:50] however, the statutory variance

[2:34:53] criteria still includes unnecessary hardship.

[2:34:56] I recognize that the current application is different from

[2:34:59] the prior one in

[2:35:00] that the electronic message center has been removed

[2:35:04] and the overall sign has been reduced.

[2:35:06] However, the application still seeks relief from the

[2:35:10] ordinance to obtain a non-conforming freestanding

[2:35:14] illuminated sign

[2:35:15] that would elsewise not be permitted at this location.

[2:35:19] In addition, there was some discussion at the prior meeting

[2:35:23] regarding whether the planning board may have created an ex

[2:35:28] expectation that additional signage would be permitted.

[2:35:31] I would like to clarify that I have a packet available

[2:35:35] to distribute to the board,

[2:35:36] which includes the relevant site plan.

[2:35:39] That site plan outlines only the old church

[2:35:42] existing sign at the property

[2:35:43] and does not reflect any approval

[2:35:46] or entitlement for additional signage beyond

[2:35:50] what is currently permitted by ordinance.

[2:35:52] It is also important to note

[2:35:54] that Della hti has since been granted three building signs,

[2:35:57] totaling four point no, 43.1 square feet.

[2:36:02] And despite that approval,

[2:36:03] the applicant is still seeking additional signage relief

[2:36:06] beyond what has already been allowed.

[2:36:09] The signage, despite no, the signage depicted in the

[2:36:14] approval site plan shows the former church sign

[2:36:17] approximately 10 feet by one foot in size

[2:36:21] and two feet from the ground located approximately 42 feet

[2:36:24] from the road, which is 32 feet further back from the

[2:36:30] roadway than the pylon sign Del hti now has

[2:36:34] in the prior litigation, the Superior Court

[2:36:39] analyzed the hardship question as applied to this property.

[2:36:42] The court reviewed whether the characteristics

[2:36:44] of the land justified relief from the ordinance

[2:36:48] and concluded that the hardship required, sorry,

[2:36:53] and the, and concluded

[2:36:54] that the hardship requirement had not been met

[2:36:57] because the present requests still seeks variance relief

[2:37:01] for a non-conforming sign at the same property.

[2:37:05] It would seem that the court's prior hardship

[2:37:08] analysis remains relevant to the board's con consideration,

[2:37:12] even though the applicant has been modified

[2:37:15] and is now being characterized differently.

[2:37:19] Yeah. It's not your statement is it? No, it's not. No. No.

[2:37:23] And all those points that you've just brought up have

[2:37:25] already been discussed by the board

[2:37:27] and reviewed by the board.

[2:37:29] Did you print, did somebody, somebody must

[2:37:32] provided that for you?

[2:37:33] Yes. Yeah. Okay.

[2:37:37] I do have the, the documents

[2:37:41] that was brought up in that though.

[2:37:44] Go ahead and accept it.

[2:37:46] I, I think we have it, but

[2:37:50] everybody on the board, Mr.

[2:37:51] Dietzel, you have the site plan?

[2:37:53] I have the site plan, Yeah, we do have,

[2:37:55] we have the existing one,

[2:37:56] but we can accept this one as well. Just to confirm,

[2:37:58] Make a motion.

[2:38:00] Make a motion to accept.

[2:38:01] Second please. Second, Mr.

[2:38:03] Golan, thank you for the record.

[2:38:05] Board accepts mills of a duplicate site plan.

[2:38:11] Okay. Anything else Ms. Clu? No, that

[2:38:14] Is all.

[2:38:15] Thank you. You're all set? Yep. Okay, thank you.

[2:38:21] Anybody else? Thank you. Rebuttal.

[2:38:24] This was second or rebuttal for Abutters

[2:38:28] or I think we heard everybody that had indicated they wanted

[2:38:32] to speak at the last meeting.

[2:38:34] I think counsel had somebody you were

[2:38:36] gesturing you wanted to speak.

[2:38:38] But before is, is he a direct abutter? No.

[2:38:42] What's the element of his your by his, the, the basis

[2:38:46] of his testimony is. Okay.

[2:38:51] Mr. Chair, prior to this, Mike, can I call Mr.

[2:38:53] Davison back up? I would just like to clarify.

[2:39:05] Could you Go back? Sorry.

[2:39:07] Do you have to say his name again or are we good?

[2:39:09] No, I think you called him up.

[2:39:11] You made his name know. Could you

[2:39:12] Go back to, you asked the question

[2:39:13] before you were asking about the coaches,

[2:39:14] you were asking about business interests.

[2:39:16] So I just wanna clarify, are you asking if I have any type

[2:39:19] of business interest or partnership

[2:39:21] or have I used the facility?

[2:39:23] Use the facility? Yes.

[2:39:24] I have taken this onto to the facility in December.

[2:39:27] I paid for an hour to use the batting cage with them.

[2:39:30] And then Gary Diamond, I believe rented it

[2:39:33] to do a middle school bootcamp

[2:39:36] and they asked, the league asked me

[2:39:38] to help out on the second

[2:39:38] night 'cause they didn't have enough coaches.

[2:39:41] But there was nothing that exchanged anything with me

[2:39:43] or that I dealt with anyone within NEA other

[2:39:45] than checking in with my son.

[2:39:47] But I just wanted to clarify that so that it didn't,

[2:39:50] I didn't misrepresent anything.

[2:39:52] So if you have any follow up questions, I'm happy to answer,

[2:39:54] but just wanted to make sure

[2:39:56] that I understood the question before.

[2:39:58] Would that being said,

[2:40:04] does that feel to anybody that there's,

[2:40:07] that maybe Mr.

[2:40:09] Corbet should recuse himself from this?

[2:40:14] I don't see a pecuniary interest. Mr.

[2:40:17] Corbett could define it more to the board.

[2:40:19] The board can vote on it.

[2:40:21] I can tell you I haven't used the facility,

[2:40:23] but I've heard the facility advertised on the radio.

[2:40:27] So I know it's purpose.

[2:40:28] I know what it's doing for the, the town or, or people.

[2:40:32] I haven't talked to anybody relative to this.

[2:40:36] So I I'm not seeing a conflict in it.

[2:40:41] He's not a regular participant there from what I can hear.

[2:40:45] And he's certainly not getting any free services there. No,

[2:40:49] I did not.

[2:40:51] I can Add, and if I,

[2:40:52] before Ms. Martin speaks, if I may, my,

[2:40:55] my take on it would be similar to when Sam

[2:40:58] and Lena Patel were at the same property.

[2:41:01] And I typically eat at East Area Cavern often

[2:41:03] as a resident in town and I still voted against them.

[2:41:05] So I don't think that utilizing a use in town

[2:41:09] as a resident necessarily makes you biased.

[2:41:12] But I am happy to hear from the

[2:41:13] board and defer to the board. Okay.

[2:41:15] I wanna say on, I'm a youth coach but not for baseball.

[2:41:20] And there's many times that my kids have gone places

[2:41:23] and to make him tell his kid no would

[2:41:26] not be fair whatsoever.

[2:41:28] You know, if all his buddies are going, they shouldn't have

[2:41:32] to reap anything here.

[2:41:34] 'cause like myself, I've been here since the nineties.

[2:41:36] If I had to sit back on every case

[2:41:38] that I might know somebody, I wouldn't be able to be here.

[2:41:42] Fair enough. I thought I had

[2:41:44] a fair question though too. No,

[2:41:45] Absolutely no.

[2:41:46] That's why his kids' not good at, that's why I wanted

[2:41:47] to call you back that he, there was a reason we were in

[2:41:49] there, but that's why I wanted to call

[2:41:51] back up and make sure that I

[2:41:52] Reiterated that.

[2:41:53] Thanks for clarifying.

[2:41:55] May I ask you a question, Mr. Trip? I thank you.

[2:41:58] I I, in your original testimony, you, you made

[2:42:03] a comment about the sign.

[2:42:05] You said it was oversized, it was

[2:42:08] backlit verification methods, brightness,

[2:42:12] when Mrs.

[2:42:15] Moji, I think that's the name, name, Cloutier

[2:42:17] What?

[2:42:18] Ms. Guttier. Ms. Cloutier.

[2:42:20] Cloutier. Alright. Sorry.

[2:42:22] She, she made some comments that

[2:42:26] made me wanna ask you a question.

[2:42:28] Sure. Alright. You had,

[2:42:32] in your original testimony you said

[2:42:34] that it was an oversized sign, right?

[2:42:38] Do you, do you believe that's an oversized sign?

[2:42:42] I believe it does not fit the character

[2:42:44] of the neighborhood and is oversized for our neighborhood.

[2:42:47] Yes.

[2:42:48] In what manner is it oversized

[2:42:51] In the manner that it's larger than

[2:42:53] what this board would permit on a normal basis?

[2:42:59] Height and girth, as I recall,

[2:43:02] Height girth is, yeah, it's a large, large sign.

[2:43:07] Right? 16 foot tall.

[2:43:09] Okay. Okay. And do you,

[2:43:12] Do you Consider 50 square feet,

[2:43:14] 65 square feet at one point?

[2:43:16] It's a large sign about the same size

[2:43:20] of that screen right there.

[2:43:24] Say again? It's close to the size

[2:43:26] of that screen right there.

[2:43:30] If you turn it on, its this, if you turned it,

[2:43:33] that's probably, maybe even smaller than

[2:43:36] what the sign actually is.

[2:43:40] So it's a large sign. And then on a large pole,

[2:43:44] The, the current sign, each of those cabinets,

[2:43:48] those two cabinets, they're both 25 square feet,

[2:43:52] I think measures out to, if you go the full five foot high,

[2:43:58] 60 inches high, the width of that cabinet is two

[2:44:02] and a half inches wider for each lint each foot up.

[2:44:07] I can't really say if it's the size of that sign that screen

[2:44:11] behind me or not, but wide

[2:44:12] Then I'd need a tape measure to be okay.

[2:44:15] As accurate. But it feels like

[2:44:19] a large sign, right?

[2:44:20] Yeah, I think I, I get your point.

[2:44:22] I have a follow up Mr. Trip.

[2:44:24] I you, you know, there's two businesses there.

[2:44:29] I know there's two businesses there.

[2:44:31] I opposed both businesses,

[2:44:33] but I had no way to oppose both businesses.

[2:44:36] Okay. So I oppose the businesses period.

[2:44:38] Okay. I, I believe that the owner

[2:44:43] is allowed to have a sign for each business.

[2:44:47] So if he had five businesses there,

[2:44:49] he could have five signs.

[2:44:52] If he had 10 businesses there, he could have 10 signs

[2:44:57] or a hundred signs if he had a hundred businesses there.

[2:44:59] I guess where does that stop?

[2:45:01] Yeah, I like, I like the idea of a hundred businesses.

[2:45:04] Well, I think I'm done. I'm, this is full crying loud.

[2:45:08] You're being silly so I can be silly.

[2:45:10] No, I'm not being silly. Alright,

[2:45:11] Let's, let's clarify for the record.

[2:45:14] All right, Mr. Trip, are you all set for right now? I

[2:45:16] Am set.

[2:45:17] And I think to the, the point, Mr. This

[2:45:20] Is how, why people get incited

[2:45:22] 'cause crazy questions come up and it's, it's frustrating.

[2:45:26] Well, I'm trying to get back to

[2:45:27] Understood. I'm just telling you my point.

[2:45:29] Your you're right there asking and,

[2:45:30] and kind of clarify for Mr.

[2:45:32] Tripp. I think he's passionate about having more commercial

[2:45:36] development in town, not necessarily where it doesn't,

[2:45:40] where it doesn't fit.

[2:45:41] Well, I think we can agree that because of statute

[2:45:46] and ordinance, the, this is an,

[2:45:48] this certainly was an odd fit that someone would come

[2:45:51] and open up a, a baseball school

[2:45:53] and a nursery all in the same location.

[2:45:56] But it's the perfect storm for, for

[2:45:59] what has has occurred here.

[2:46:01] And I think that there's, I said it at the last meeting,

[2:46:05] there's this perception

[2:46:06] that there was already a decision made.

[2:46:08] We hear that in the tone and the comments that are made.

[2:46:11] Not only that, but you know, a statement that says

[2:46:14] that there's a conspiracy.

[2:46:17] And we heard that last year too.

[2:46:20] I think to your question, if it was a hundred businesses,

[2:46:23] what would be, what would be appropriate?

[2:46:27] Would it be a hundred signs? Well, possibly.

[2:46:30] So, however, the, the design of something of

[2:46:35] that matter would not be in this location.

[2:46:38] The odds of two businesses fitting in this one location

[2:46:42] that would be approved one by statute

[2:46:44] that the town has no say over is unusual

[2:46:48] a hundred businesses in

[2:46:49] that one location would not be permitted at all

[2:46:53] because there's not that many businesses that would be by.

[2:46:56] Right. And in that regard, there's other signed designs

[2:47:00] that this board might have purview over to correct that

[2:47:05] even if it were a hundred businesses in the

[2:47:07] one location. Okay.

[2:47:08] Maybe I was. So I think we've clarified all of that

[2:47:11] and, and I understand that Mr.

[2:47:14] Trip has some levity to, you know, his response

[2:47:17] and back and forth.

[2:47:19] I think I've clarified that aspect of it.

[2:47:22] The a hundred signs and

[2:47:23] that the board's discretion is still lingering

[2:47:26] as to where this goes.

[2:47:29] Yes, you have. Okay. Feels to me that Mr.

[2:47:32] Tripp has made a decision already though, just

[2:47:36] and back to your point where predetermined it feels that way

[2:47:40] because it feels like he's on, the questions

[2:47:43] that he's asking are on the side

[2:47:45] of the business being there.

[2:47:47] He wants more commercial, he wants signs. He's saying it.

[2:47:50] You're saying that that's what he's thinking. So I sound

[2:47:52] Predetermined, but I think the discretion is

[2:47:54] that we understand that the, the, the perfect storm

[2:47:58] of a hundred businesses

[2:47:59] or 50 businesses fitting in this location are, are very odd.

[2:48:02] Okay. So he's being a little facetious. I think

[2:48:06] Possibly, I'm just trying to clarify that these

[2:48:10] businesses are permitted.

[2:48:12] It's a permitted use.

[2:48:14] You, the businesses came in under, you know what,

[2:48:18] I don't want to go down this road.

[2:48:19] That, that's fine because it's, I'm gonna get

[2:48:20] ****** it. Alright.

[2:48:22] I remember your point. I, I'll

[2:48:24] They came in undercover.

[2:48:26] I'm not happy about it to begin with. They're there.

[2:48:29] Let's move on if I may, let's move on. I mean, Mr.

[2:48:31] Mr I don't know why I have to revisit this. Yeah,

[2:48:33] Sure.

[2:48:34] He made it very clear at the original meeting

[2:48:36] and we as the board made it very clear it was not within our

[2:48:38] purview to hear it.

[2:48:39] So I, to Mr. Davidson's point, I don't,

[2:48:41] we should not be going back and forth at that point

[2:48:43] Right now. I'm all set.

[2:48:44] Okay. Thank you. Alright.

[2:48:46] We had one Abutter who wanted to give his,

[2:48:49] he's not spoken before.

[2:48:51] I'm gonna give that latitude

[2:48:52] and then give the attorneys back up.

[2:48:53] We're going to, we're gonna take a motion on the 26 dash one

[2:48:58] 12 to po to table the next meeting.

[2:49:01] That motion. Very good. Second, seconded by Mr. Donlin.

[2:49:06] Mr. Molton, I do know you're in the room,

[2:49:08] but we're not going to get to you tonight.

[2:49:11] We'll reschedule you for the next meeting,

[2:49:14] which you will be.

[2:49:16] God help us so we can get through this.

[2:49:18] This case, you should be first on the agenda. Okay.

[2:49:22] All in favor of that, of tabling that case.

[2:49:25] 26 1 12 to the next meeting. Say aye. Aye. Aye. Any opposed?

[2:49:30] Very good. Thank you Mr. Molton hearing from one, one last.

[2:49:34] Abutter.

[2:49:36] Is there two? Good evening.

[2:49:42] Good evening. Ben Mitchell, three Belmont Terrace.

[2:49:45] Are you a direct to abut Not a direct toBut?

[2:49:49] There's three. Three what?

[2:49:50] Three Belmont Terrace, thank you.

[2:49:52] About a third of mile down the road.

[2:49:55] Okay. I just wanted to state that

[2:49:59] I don't really understand the whole value,

[2:50:02] property value conversation.

[2:50:04] And part of this about the sign I drive by that

[2:50:09] sign probably multiple times a day,

[2:50:12] never had an issue with it.

[2:50:14] Certainly have not had as big of an issue with it as the

[2:50:18] look of the dilapidated church that was there

[2:50:21] for years prior.

[2:50:25] The, the look of dumpsters in the front yard of

[2:50:30] abutters to the property that we're talking about don't seem

[2:50:34] to be an issue to the property values of the abutters.

[2:50:36] But this beautiful new sign seems to,

[2:50:40] it doesn't make much sense to me.

[2:50:43] I agree with Mr. Tripp.

[2:50:44] I mean, as far as the commercial growth of the town,

[2:50:49] as a, as a taxpayer, I support that.

[2:50:52] And especially a business like this

[2:50:55] that serves the youth of the community.

[2:50:59] Okay. Very good.

[2:51:02] Thank you very much, counsel.

[2:51:06] You are welcome back up.

[2:51:08] We're gonna try and get you done. Yes.

[2:51:11] Okay. And we hope to be very brief, Mr. Chair.

[2:51:14] And thank you to the Honorable Board again

[2:51:16] for one last opportunity to speak for the record.

[2:51:20] My name is Chris Drescher.

[2:51:21] I'm an attorney with Kron Bis and Zelensky outta Manchester.

[2:51:23] And I am the counsel for the applicant,

[2:51:27] Byrd Enterprises, LLC.

[2:51:30] I just wanted to take this opportunity to make two very

[2:51:32] brief points At the last hearing.

[2:51:35] We had some discussion

[2:51:36] with Member Corbitt about a potentially

[2:51:40] shrinking, bringing the sign down.

[2:51:43] We looked into that. We are able to do that

[2:51:44] and are willing to do that, to lose four feet

[2:51:50] off the height of that sign.

[2:51:52] So if you were to approve this,

[2:51:54] we'd be perfectly fine having that as a, as a condition.

[2:51:58] And lastly, I just wanted to say,

[2:51:59] I'm just gonna say I'll defer to my testimony,

[2:52:02] to our pleadings, to everything we've already put in the

[2:52:04] record so we don't have to belabor the point

[2:52:06] much more into this evening.

[2:52:08] But one, one point I made back in April that seems

[2:52:11] to have been lost since then,

[2:52:12] at least from the testimony I've been listening to

[2:52:14] for the past two hearings, is the hardship criteria,

[2:52:16] specifically the special conditions that speak

[2:52:18] to the land itself.

[2:52:22] Now, when I read the Superior Court case,

[2:52:24] what Judge K class said is that the special condition

[2:52:29] that was presented to him was just

[2:52:30] that everything was pushed back

[2:52:32] and that didn't cut it for him.

[2:52:34] However, what I presented back in April when I came to you

[2:52:37] and what was never presented back in the original case,

[2:52:39] which I think absolutely does, is,

[2:52:42] and I'm gonna hold up a tax map here.

[2:52:44] You have a tax map. It's already in your application,

[2:52:46] so we don't need to go through the motions to submit it.

[2:52:48] I'm just gonna hold it up here. But this is

[2:52:50] the largest lot in the area.

[2:52:52] It's bigger than all the others.

[2:52:54] And that is why back in April I

[2:52:55] brought up the Harborside case.

[2:52:57] 'cause I, I think Mr. Jerry,

[2:52:58] I know you're familiar with that case.

[2:52:59] And in that case, the sort of nut nutshell I'm taking from

[2:53:03] that is that in that case, the, the Supreme Court said that

[2:53:08] hardship, at least with a respect to special condition,

[2:53:11] could be the size of the hotel that was in that case

[2:53:16] because they needed a bigger sign

[2:53:17] because they had a bigger hotel.

[2:53:19] And that was a special condition.

[2:53:21] And that was one of the bigger takeaways from that case.

[2:53:23] Not the only takeaway of course,

[2:53:24] but one of the major takeaways.

[2:53:26] And I think that is analogous to this situation here.

[2:53:29] We have the largest lot in the area

[2:53:30] and that you haven't allowed use.

[2:53:32] I also heard something about use variances versus

[2:53:34] dimensional variances.

[2:53:35] Not that that matters anymore,

[2:53:36] but if we were talking about dimensions,

[2:53:38] I just gave you the dimensions.

[2:53:39] If we're talking about use, the use is allowed.

[2:53:41] He's got a commercial use, he's entitled

[2:53:43] to a, a sign for his business.

[2:53:45] And that was really all I wanted

[2:53:47] to have my last word be applicant's here.

[2:53:51] If you got any more questions and oh,

[2:53:53] and we'll also reduce the light

[2:53:54] by 25% is what you're saying to me. Okay.

[2:53:57] So I found that out that you can LED lights, it was,

[2:54:00] the question was brought up last time.

[2:54:01] Are you able to turn down the brightness on those signs?

[2:54:04] I reached out to my sign company on three different fronts

[2:54:07] that were brought up last time.

[2:54:09] I heard this board loud and clear last time when we spoke

[2:54:11] about, you know, turning down the volume, trying

[2:54:14] to get this back under, under wraps.

[2:54:16] I believe that every time I've spoken to you, spoken

[2:54:20] to you over the course of, I think we're in five meetings.

[2:54:22] I've been respectful. I've come up, I've spoken in a manner

[2:54:25] that I haven't, I've tried to be professional and so forth.

[2:54:28] I will say tonight I'm very offended. I'm, I'm very upset.

[2:54:33] I've sat here and been dragged

[2:54:34] through the mud for five meetings.

[2:54:36] I've been told that I've lied.

[2:54:37] I've been told that I haven't done things.

[2:54:39] I've been told that I shouldn't be there.

[2:54:40] I've been told pretty much that they, that that my

[2:54:44] Existence, Not,

[2:54:45] Not by the Board, but not by the board.

[2:54:46] No, no, no. I'm sorry. Thank you.

[2:54:48] Very clear by the abutters.

[2:54:49] And, and there's been so many falsities made

[2:54:52] and so many inaccuracies made.

[2:54:55] I'm very, very upset at this point.

[2:54:56] I do not want to go through every inaccuracy with this board

[2:54:59] because this has been a painful process for myself and you

[2:55:04] and my business and my customers and everyone.

[2:55:07] But about three people that love this place.

[2:55:10] Love my sign, love what I've done. Love that.

[2:55:12] I've brought up two businesses to this town.

[2:55:15] Love that I'm working with the youth love that I have a,

[2:55:17] a garden center, but but three

[2:55:19] or four families that consistently drag me through the mud.

[2:55:23] I am not that person.

[2:55:24] I have brought, I have spent a ton of money here.

[2:55:27] I have never said once that my hardship is money.

[2:55:29] Not one time, but I've said I I've been told, I did.

[2:55:33] I've been told that I've ignored knocking on doors,

[2:55:36] I've ignored messages.

[2:55:37] I've ignored these things. That has not happened.

[2:55:40] I have not locked myself in a closet when someone's come

[2:55:43] to my door, you can ask Ms. Owen, I came to her on my own

[2:55:47] to tell her what I was doing with the sign to,

[2:55:50] to tell her what the process was.

[2:55:52] I said I would shut the lights off. I shut the lights off.

[2:55:54] I don't have to shut the lights off in the building.

[2:55:57] I can leave 'em on 24 hours a day if I would like to.

[2:55:59] But I shut 'em off. I also shut off the lights

[2:56:02] that have been in the air for 27 years

[2:56:04] that no one had a problem with.

[2:56:06] I'm sure it's not on the record for 27 years,

[2:56:08] no one said one word until I moved in.

[2:56:11] Now I put up the lights

[2:56:12] that have been referenced as an airport.

[2:56:14] I didn't put those lights up.

[2:56:16] They were preexisting that they had no issues with zero.

[2:56:19] They have a problem with me in that, that that the ordinance

[2:56:22] that they lived in, that they moved to before this,

[2:56:25] before this happened allows this use.

[2:56:28] That is not my fault. That is not your fault.

[2:56:34] It is allowed Simply it is allowed.

[2:56:38] I am not gonna go up and down Hampstead Road

[2:56:40] and call out every business that is out

[2:56:42] of compliance with their signs.

[2:56:43] But there's plenty, there's plenty. Mr.

[2:56:46] Tripp made a comment last time

[2:56:47] that he hadn't noticed any backlit signs in the area.

[2:56:50] There are, there's several.

[2:56:53] There's one at the other end of the road. Yes.

[2:56:55] It's out of town by 50 feet next to another abutter.

[2:56:58] That, that, that the, that that I believe Mr.

[2:57:01] Rosie brought up a sign off. Okay.

[2:57:04] You can see it from the Abutter. So yes.

[2:57:06] It might be another sign. Backlit sign.

[2:57:08] Electronic read aboard.

[2:57:09] Same road less than five minutes away.

[2:57:13] Calvary Christian Church has a backlit sign.

[2:57:17] Doesn't mean they turn it on. They have a backlit sign.

[2:57:21] Can flip it on tonight if they'd like with a reader board,

[2:57:23] not electronic with a reader board.

[2:57:26] Okay. Down the street as you go into the historic district,

[2:57:29] district, there is a reader board.

[2:57:31] There's a backlit sign on the church across the street also

[2:57:34] has, you know, a backlit sign.

[2:57:37] I'm not do, I'm not asking for anything that is out

[2:57:40] of character of the neighborhood.

[2:57:41] I've increased the value

[2:57:42] of the character of the neighborhood.

[2:57:44] There are dumpsters in the front

[2:57:45] yards of people's homes on that road.

[2:57:46] Commercial dumpsters.

[2:57:52] I'm sorry, Excuse me. Sorry to interrupt. Mr.

[2:57:54] Chair duty time. May I motion to extend?

[2:57:59] Oh, 15, 15 minutes please.

[2:58:01] Second please. I'll second. Thank you Ms. Moore. Sorry.

[2:58:04] Back. Say hi

[2:58:06] Chair.

[2:58:07] I may interrupt. I apologize.

[2:58:08] We have one case still pending.

[2:58:10] I don't know if you wanna table that as well.

[2:58:13] You had the molten case and there's

[2:58:15] There's another One after further

[2:58:16] case. Yes. I'm sorry. Yeah.

[2:58:17] 26 1 13. Thank you. You're welcome.

[2:58:21] Case 26. Shane. 26, 1 13 you said. Correct. Yep.

[2:58:26] Motion to table to the next meeting

[2:58:28] Please.

[2:58:29] I'll make a motion table case 26 dash

[2:58:30] one 13 to our next meeting.

[2:58:32] Second please. Second Mr. Trip. Second.

[2:58:34] All in favor say aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Any opposed?

[2:58:37] Sorry folks.

[2:58:40] And, and I think what I'll just say I'm off of that,

[2:58:44] you know, I think some of my clients'

[2:58:49] frustration probably also stems from the fact that,

[2:58:51] you know, we've come here, we've been making these

[2:58:53] concessions, will shrink the sign will make it lower,

[2:58:56] make it smaller, we'll make the lights go off, we'll make,

[2:58:58] make 'em less bright.

[2:59:00] And I, and I just hope

[2:59:02] that doesn't fall on deaf ears that we have done that.

[2:59:04] What is, I think we are looking at the lighting.

[2:59:09] That becomes a big issue, right?

[2:59:12] Yeah. A que So a question that I would have for you guys,

[2:59:16] would you consider breaking up the motion one for a sign

[2:59:20] and then one regarding the lights

[2:59:23] rather than just one motion altogether?

[2:59:27] Is that something that you'd be willing to, I'd have to

[2:59:28] Refer to you on that. I, I,

[2:59:30] So, so I guess could,

[2:59:32] could you make me understand a little more

[2:59:33] member, like, so two motions,

[2:59:34] What I would think is two motions, one that would allow,

[2:59:37] or one that would vote on the sign the size

[2:59:40] of the sign and the area.

[2:59:43] One that would allow for either the backlit

[2:59:46] or external lights or any type of lighting towards the sign

[2:59:50] rather than just one variance that ties everything together.

[2:59:54] So before you, before you get into that, I I i,

[2:59:58] I was on a little bit of a tangent and I apologize for that.

[3:00:00] I didn't do that. I think you can understand why.

[3:00:02] Hold on a second. This is not retaliatory.

[3:00:04] It's breaking down what you're hearing for testimony.

[3:00:07] Nope, I understand. And understanding your frustration

[3:00:10] and from Mr.

[3:00:11] Corbett's perspective, if you break the two apart,

[3:00:16] it doesn't necessarily, both could be challenged if

[3:00:20] that's the course of the abutters,

[3:00:22] but they could be challenged separately.

[3:00:24] They, they may accept some adjustments that you've made

[3:00:27] and challenge a separate part,

[3:00:30] Cor Correct.

[3:00:31] The, the one, the one concern I have,

[3:00:33] and this is something you brought up originally,

[3:00:36] and I think in context that you brought it up, Mr.

[3:00:39] Corbett was, I think you were looking for an example.

[3:00:42] And I have a better example after talking to that.

[3:00:44] So I've done my research

[3:00:46] after each one of these meetings, I spoke to my electrician,

[3:00:48] east Coast Electrical Corporation, big company,

[3:00:51] Massachusetts does a bunch of commercial work,

[3:00:53] does a bunch of residential work.

[3:00:54] They no longer in most towns are allowed to, to install

[3:01:00] external lighting on signs in areas.

[3:01:02] And the reason for it is, is lawn maintenance.

[3:01:05] Lawn maintenance goes around, they hit the signs

[3:01:07] and they turn the, they turn the floodlights into the road.

[3:01:13] They just won't, they're not even

[3:01:15] allowed in a lot of town now.

[3:01:16] So now I'm left with, with, you know, little

[3:01:19] or no lighting down.

[3:01:20] Lit signs have been down.

[3:01:22] Lit signs are, are, have been out in several towns

[3:01:24] for years too, because the same thing, the angle

[3:01:26] of the lights project into people's eyes.

[3:01:28] So backlit signs in, in,

[3:01:30] in East coast Electrical corporation, which has been around

[3:01:32] for many years doing a lot of this is the most, the,

[3:01:35] the best in and safest way to backlit signs.

[3:01:39] And that's why I said I called my sign company, I was able

[3:01:42] to, they said I can reduce the sign by 25% in height

[3:01:45] that brings it down four feet.

[3:01:47] I can reduce the illuminations by 25%.

[3:01:51] I took, the gentleman asked about the, the down lighting on,

[3:01:56] on the top, which is the LEDI removed that.

[3:02:01] I think the concessions I've brought here did exactly

[3:02:03] what this board asked of, of this case before.

[3:02:07] And that's to come to a resolution, try to have a,

[3:02:10] have some sort of a give and take turn down the temperature.

[3:02:13] To some extent, I believe I've done all of that.

[3:02:16] And yet I still am being, you know, berated is just simply,

[3:02:19] they don't want anything there.

[3:02:21] So whatever I come back with for a sign,

[3:02:22] I'm gonna be doing the same process.

[3:02:24] They might disagree, but that is the case.

[3:02:27] So I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm asking for,

[3:02:30] and we can certainly, clarity is one.

[3:02:34] I also have no problem if this board wishes again

[3:02:38] to turn down temperature.

[3:02:40] As of right now, I'm allowed

[3:02:41] to keep my building signs on all, all night.

[3:02:44] I still am allowed to have those, the flood lights go off.

[3:02:46] Although I said in the meeting, I can turn them off.

[3:02:48] I'll turn them off. They're, they're, they're there

[3:02:51] and allowed, I mean, they've been there for 27 years.

[3:02:53] They're part of the original approval.

[3:02:55] But I'm happy to make a concession to that as well

[3:02:59] upon pro upon approval.

[3:03:01] I would happy to have the, the lights on the building

[3:03:03] go off at a certain time.

[3:03:04] I'm happy to never turn the floodlights on.

[3:03:07] I'm happy to have my sign go off at the hours.

[3:03:10] We talked about last time off at nine o'clock on a dusk,

[3:03:13] I explained the method that on, on a,

[3:03:15] on a dusk explained the method that can happen last time.

[3:03:19] I can reduce it by 25% height.

[3:03:21] I can reduce the, the, the illumination by 25%.

[3:03:25] I will take the lights off of the top.

[3:03:28] I think I've made a lot of

[3:03:29] concessions to try to make this work.

[3:03:31] I I I don't, I'm not trying to Yep.

[3:03:33] Get you to break down and I don't think that's

[3:03:34] Yeah, no, I wasn't even getting to your point.

[3:03:36] I was just getting done what I needed to get done. Yeah.

[3:03:38] But I think, I think that you, you hear the testimony

[3:03:41] and we're trying to work through something that we can see

[3:03:45] perhaps a road ahead

[3:03:47] and given opportunity that addresses your concerns as well

[3:03:51] as the abutters and that people, you know,

[3:03:54] leave here in an uncontested.

[3:03:57] And I believe I'm doing that by offering this,

[3:03:59] have the signage on the buildings off at a time. Do that.

[3:04:01] Yep. But I have some questions that I want to ask. Sure.

[3:04:04] Relative to your concessions as well,

[3:04:07] because I wanna make sure that they make sense.

[3:04:09] And so what you're suggesting is

[3:04:11] that you would lower this from approximately 16 feet down

[3:04:14] to 12 feet at the top.

[3:04:16] Correct. But that brings your, the lowest sign.

[3:04:19] And, and by the way, the board still has

[3:04:21] to deliberate about these signs and their sizes

[3:04:25] and how they are structured.

[3:04:27] Right. And so there's a lot of,

[3:04:29] let's just say spit balling going on here to try

[3:04:32] and figure out what works

[3:04:35] and that there's no,

[3:04:39] no regrets later.

[3:04:41] Right. On all parties.

[3:04:42] And essentially you are dealing

[3:04:44] with three parties right now yourselves,

[3:04:47] the abutters in the town.

[3:04:49] And so in that regard, by drop dropping this down four feet,

[3:04:53] that lower cabinet ends up two feet off the ground.

[3:04:58] And is that where you want that cabinet to be?

[3:05:01] And so I'm, where I'm going with this is one

[3:05:04] of the abutters talked about a parallel,

[3:05:06] a horizontal alignment of the cabinets, which

[3:05:10] puts them at an equal height,

[3:05:13] may bring it down a little lower.

[3:05:15] But the question that we, that we come to also is

[3:05:18] that your lighting

[3:05:20] and your need for it going towards the hardship is more

[3:05:23] about the baseball camp.

[3:05:25] And, and that you have, you have a patrons

[3:05:29] that are more likely to be there in the evening

[3:05:31] and that's where that hardship starts to play in.

[3:05:34] Right. You need them to be able to see the location.

[3:05:38] And so in this regard, if you, if you had

[3:05:43] to do a trade off, right, and,

[3:05:46] and honestly, do you need the lights on at dusk

[3:05:48] because everybody's gonna see that sign?

[3:05:51] No. When they're going by in the daylight, right? No.

[3:05:55] Or at at dawn or whatever, right?

[3:05:57] I mean you at some point you're, you No,

[3:06:00] I never have it on in the morning. No.

[3:06:01] Okay. And so, so I get that right.

[3:06:04] And but I think before you follow this full concession

[3:06:08] and the board still needs to deliberate about this,

[3:06:11] I would think about that cabinet

[3:06:12] that's two feet off the ground.

[3:06:14] And if you can do the cabinet

[3:06:16] that's two feet off the ground, perhaps you need to

[3:06:19] put them both at that horizontal

[3:06:22] or bring them up four feet off the ground

[3:06:25] and make 'em horizontal.

[3:06:26] Well the, the, when the

[3:06:29] reader board was initially installed

[3:06:32] and was on the, the bottom of those cabinets,

[3:06:35] it was three by five.

[3:06:37] So it hung below those cabinets three feet. Yep.

[3:06:40] I'm suggesting we go down four feet. Yep.

[3:06:42] When it was down three feet, it was fine.

[3:06:44] It was three feet off the ground and it was no problem.

[3:06:48] So I'm, I'm okay with the two feet.

[3:06:51] I mean, would I prefer it to be a foot higher? Yes, I would.

[3:06:53] I think it'd be more proportional.

[3:06:54] I think it'll look right, but it,

[3:06:57] I've already got a reference point

[3:06:58] because that cabinet was there

[3:07:00] with the reader board that wasn't turned on.

[3:07:02] So I, I know where the bottom was,

[3:07:04] so I'm not, I'm not gonna be shocked by that.

[3:07:06] Put it that way. I'm not.

[3:07:08] So is it more advantageous for two signs to be side

[3:07:11] by side at a certain height off the ground?

[3:07:14] I, I, I don't think so.

[3:07:15] The whole reason why I, the sign was designed this way

[3:07:19] by the, by the sign company.

[3:07:20] We put a lot of thought in this

[3:07:21] because of how busy Hampstead Road is.

[3:07:23] Yep. In in top to bottom.

[3:07:25] People are coming down the road

[3:07:26] and you see the sign that way.

[3:07:27] Yeah. That, that was so, so to be quite honest,

[3:07:30] a sign going, you know, in the other direction is, is not

[3:07:35] not ideal by any means.

[3:07:36] You feel it would have to catch the attention

[3:07:38] A different way.

[3:07:39] Exactly. It's, it's sort of when it's when you have it,

[3:07:43] you know, situated on the road this way the dr it's easier

[3:07:46] for the driver to see where you turn it to, to the road.

[3:07:48] It's more, you know, really

[3:07:49] Just, just as one last point about

[3:07:51] that it's been brought up in

[3:07:52] and it's, it's kind

[3:07:53] of been just labeled at this point, I guess in this room.

[3:07:56] I'm not saying by the board,

[3:07:57] but it's actually been, been communicated back to,

[3:08:01] in questions to the, to the, the abutters.

[3:08:04] The oversized sign. The oversized sign.

[3:08:06] I'm here for variance.

[3:08:10] That's, that's to the eyes of the beholder.

[3:08:11] What the oversight sign is. Mr. Ro came up here.

[3:08:14] I wish he, I, you know, this is the problem

[3:08:16] with the extension of the meetings.

[3:08:18] I'm supposed to be now speaking to images, I don't have,

[3:08:24] I can only guess what those pictures were.

[3:08:26] 'cause he doesn't have here. Yeah,

[3:08:28] I think they're the same photos

[3:08:29] that he brought in the prior to

[3:08:31] There.

[3:08:32] I just have to remember Right. I can't see everyone.

[3:08:33] What I do know on those, those photos

[3:08:35] that every business on there closed at, closed before dark

[3:08:39] and everyone was a nursery garden center.

[3:08:41] So we're not comparing apples to apples there.

[3:08:43] The other thing is that I think is, is unique

[3:08:47] and the board should understand this

[3:08:49] because you're trying to listen to both sides of this,

[3:08:51] to the app, to the abutters as well.

[3:08:53] Mr. Rose did a, did a nice sign formation

[3:08:57] and he said, you know, this is a nice three by six sign.

[3:09:01] Fortunately for myself in today's technology,

[3:09:04] what was in front of that sign was a hay bale

[3:09:07] was a what Was a hay bale.

[3:09:09] Oh. When he did the design, I

[3:09:10] Thought you said hate mail.

[3:09:12] No, it might have been some hate mail too.

[3:09:13] But a hay bale, you being able to use AI and so forth.

[3:09:18] Now the sign he showed you was nine feet long

[3:09:21] and in almost five feet,

[3:09:23] five feet tall based on the size of a hay bale.

[3:09:27] So when you measure it out, what he showed,

[3:09:29] and everyone here, all the abutters thought it looked great,

[3:09:33] is actually the same size,

[3:09:34] almost the same size in in square footage

[3:09:36] as the sign I'm presenting.

[3:09:38] And they thought it was cabinet. Yep. Okay.

[3:09:41] Got it. Okay. Yep. So it just, it might've,

[3:09:44] might've said it was smaller, but it didn't show that way.

[3:09:46] And everyone seemed to feel as though

[3:09:48] that size was, was nice.

[3:09:50] Fortunately it was a hay bale air.

[3:09:51] So I know a hay bale is 35 inches long by,

[3:09:54] by 18 inches tall.

[3:09:55] So you can go and start doing it out.

[3:09:56] So you can see that. Alright,

[3:09:58] So your concession is that the,

[3:10:00] that the externally lit signs on the building would be,

[3:10:04] would follow the lighting if

[3:10:07] this could get approved?

[3:10:11] Is that what you're saying to us?

[3:10:13] Yeah, and if I may, and correct me if I speak outta turn

[3:10:16] Jay, but I think with, with two motions,

[3:10:18] I don't have a problem with the two motions I think though.

[3:10:20] But if, when it comes to the lighting, we've heard,

[3:10:23] you've heard 'em, we'll make concessions,

[3:10:24] we'll put the timer on it, they'll turn off,

[3:10:26] we'll make it less bright, et cetera.

[3:10:29] But, but as opposed to internal versus external, I think

[3:10:32] that's just a whole different thing.

[3:10:35] And, and I think, and,

[3:10:37] and I think you've, you've heard it from the applicant

[3:10:39] that I don't think we're we're, we're pro external

[3:10:42] or you know, probably external lighting.

[3:10:44] So that, that, that would probably be the, the line

[3:10:46] that we'd have to draw, so to speak.

[3:10:49] And your, your timeline on when

[3:10:52] that light would be shut off would be, so if, if I were,

[3:10:54] I think you indicated you had some kind of fancy

[3:10:56] Control that Yeah, it's just new technology, right?

[3:10:59] So it can be set at a time to go on, like you said,

[3:11:03] do I need it on at dusk?

[3:11:04] No, but that's the way a timer can work. I get it. Okay.

[3:11:08] So I can set a time, but I'd have to change it all the time.

[3:11:11] Potentially. It might even have

[3:11:13] something in there that you can do.

[3:11:14] You know, there's so much technology now. And

[3:11:16] Then, sorry to interrupt, just to confirm,

[3:11:18] 'cause again, the bots at my work

[3:11:19] or the band of my existence, you can manually override this.

[3:11:22] Oh yeah, yeah. It's

[3:11:23] Literally a switch and it would go off at nine o'clock.

[3:11:26] Yeah. If I recall, we, we,

[3:11:28] we submitted some material last time we were here about the

[3:11:32] technology that the, the timers can go on.

[3:11:35] And I think the, the idea was basic.

[3:11:37] Yeah, it goes off at nine, you know, goes on

[3:11:41] as it gets dark out.

[3:11:43] And then when you average it out throughout the year,

[3:11:45] it actually would only average out

[3:11:47] to two hours a day. I think it was

[3:11:50] Two hours and five minutes maybe

[3:11:50] or something. You'd have five hours

[3:11:51] Have to look.

[3:11:52] We submitted those in those attachments

[3:11:54] that we put in last meeting.

[3:11:57] So obviously during the winter on a little longer

[3:11:59] during the summer on a little shorter.

[3:12:02] I mean, it's coming up to the time, it won't go on at all.

[3:12:04] But do you need both cabinets lit?

[3:12:10] I think I would think so, yeah. Just for the, for the

[3:12:14] Advertising, I think just for the, yeah,

[3:12:15] Mr.

[3:12:16] Chairman, I opine on that as a board member.

[3:12:18] I, I would not understand why I would

[3:12:23] see an application with two signs and only one of them lit.

[3:12:26] I would, I would think that would, yeah, I,

[3:12:29] I dunno why we'd ever look into

[3:12:31] something like that in general.

[3:12:32] Like that would Yeah, to Crystal's point,

[3:12:34] it would just look decrepit.

[3:12:35] Well, you would have to prove that in the five criteria

[3:12:38] That I felt a look decrepit. And

[3:12:40] So, so I mean we, we, you know, we're, we're not speaking

[3:12:42] to the fact we're using, we're using the, the, the fact

[3:12:46] that the baseball facility is open at, at later time,

[3:12:49] but I do sell Christmas trees.

[3:12:51] I, you know, we, we do open later

[3:12:54] for the nursery at times of year.

[3:12:55] So now I'd have to say, well, okay,

[3:12:57] but I really want it from November to 15th to this time

[3:13:01] to be on, because that's when we sell Christmas trees

[3:13:03] in the, this time of year.

[3:13:05] Okay. Yeah. I I would just think it would be on, it's

[3:13:09] Relative to the board's decision.

[3:13:10] Yep. And it and, and what

[3:13:12] We, and I would think it would be a better look

[3:13:14] for the surrounding area to calf.

[3:13:15] Just both on, it just looked normal to me.

[3:13:18] Okay. Anything else? I have a question. Mr.

[3:13:22] Trip. The signs

[3:13:24] that you have on the buildings, they are lit?

[3:13:28] Yes. Okay. Thank you.

[3:13:32] Ms. Donlin, do you have anything

[3:13:34] to follow up on to consider?

[3:13:35] I do, they referenced, I believe the word you used was

[3:13:39] brightness of the signs as possible to go down

[3:13:43] by 25%.

[3:13:44] Did they speak to any value

[3:13:49] that's not as vague as brightness in 25%?

[3:13:52] Like is this however many Lumens, candles

[3:13:55] or whatever or something like that? Yeah,

[3:13:57] No, it, it initially in the file you'll find information

[3:14:01] on the lumens of this sign.

[3:14:02] It was presented it originally with our sign company.

[3:14:06] It was designed through the sign engineer,

[3:14:11] if you will, about the lumens.

[3:14:12] There's a, there's a big piece in there.

[3:14:14] I would just simply think in, in basic terms,

[3:14:17] we'll just use it for simple terms.

[3:14:18] If it's currently set at a hundred lumens,

[3:14:20] it will go to 75 lumens.

[3:14:22] I don't like Mr. Trip.

[3:14:23] I don't know what, how I can determine a lumen like that.

[3:14:26] I don't know that. I just know it can be turned down

[3:14:28] in a percentage value.

[3:14:30] So fair to say then, to the best

[3:14:32] of your knowledge right now,

[3:14:33] the sign is at a hundred percent of its brightness?

[3:14:37] Yes. I think that's the default.

[3:14:38] That's what my sign company told me. That's the default.

[3:14:41] Okay. Which is what we presented to the initial,

[3:14:45] I think the initial plan in Lumens

[3:14:47] and so forth, which is the standard,

[3:14:51] what they say is the standard.

[3:14:52] So, but I didn't know either until it was brought up

[3:14:56] and I asked the company and they can be turned down.

[3:14:58] Thank You Mr. Chair. Go

[3:15:00] Ahead.

[3:15:01] If I may, 10, 15 may request a second extension.

[3:15:04] Yep. I'll make a motion to extend

[3:15:06] for an additional 15 minutes.

[3:15:08] Mr. Dietzel. Second. Thank you. All in favor? Aye. Aye.

[3:15:12] Okay. You had a question? I have

[3:15:15] A follow up to Mr.

[3:15:16] Dolan's point. Would, before the next meeting,

[3:15:19] can I request, and I apologize for having to go back

[3:15:22] through the documents, but can I request

[3:15:23] that you guys present us kind of what, with

[3:15:25] what the current 100% lumens are

[3:15:28] and then what the 25% reduction will be, just so we have

[3:15:30] that officially rather than Craig meth taking place?

[3:15:35] Sure. Sure. Mr. Donald, you are all set.

[3:15:40] I, I didn't mean to cut you off.

[3:15:42] It's all right. I'm used to it.

[3:15:43] All right. Thank you Mr. Dietzel. I'm all set. Mr. Chair.

[3:15:47] Mr. Dietzel is used to it too, I guess. Oh, no, Mr.

[3:15:50] Trip, you're all set and

[3:15:52] You're all set. I have no questions.

[3:15:53] All right. I'd like to see,

[3:15:54] I just wanna see that one from the

[3:15:56] Sure.

[3:15:57] Having deliver.

[3:16:00] Let's, let's adjourn this.

[3:16:02] All right. I don't think we have to have any more testimony.

[3:16:05] All right. I agree. Faith that way I don't see us getting

[3:16:10] through a fair deliberation.

[3:16:11] That's the point. I understand. I understand.

[3:16:13] And I don't want it rushed. I'm just Yep. Without a sign.

[3:16:16] I understand. And if it's any,

[3:16:20] any significance to, you don't necessarily need to be here

[3:16:23] for the deliberation that happens either, but Yes.

[3:16:26] I, I can be here in your instead if you like, I'm just

[3:16:29] Request a little bit of all Info.

[3:16:30] We're, we're open to if ideas come from the board members,

[3:16:36] they can be relayed to me and then back to code enforcement.

[3:16:40] Okay. And I think I have a good

[3:16:43] understanding of where you're at.

[3:16:47] I think I can appreciate the amount of concessions

[3:16:50] that you are making and that you're hearing kind

[3:16:53] of the, the back and forth.

[3:16:56] And so it's not falling on deaf ears.

[3:16:58] I don't wanna rush through a deliberation

[3:17:00] that I think is gonna take more than 10 minutes.

[3:17:03] Okay. I understand. I, I understand that a hundred

[3:17:05] Percent.

[3:17:06] And, and just so I'm clear, so we are to try

[3:17:08] to get some information submitted, which I could email in on

[3:17:12] lumens and light measurement.

[3:17:14] Yeah. Something, my specific request would just be

[3:17:17] what the current 100% lumens is.

[3:17:18] Okay. And then just specifically defined

[3:17:20] what the 25% reduction is.

[3:17:24] Okay. I will say to you that there is, there is no

[3:17:29] district in this community

[3:17:30] that does not allow for a business sign.

[3:17:33] If you look at all the ordinance, the three pages of it.

[3:17:37] And so I, I can understand,

[3:17:41] but I have an understanding of, I think Mr. Davidson was up

[3:17:46] and there was an exchange, you know,

[3:17:47] about a hundred businesses.

[3:17:49] I think that has to be evaluated

[3:17:51] and you're not a hundred businesses,

[3:17:53] but I think there's that aspect to it as well.

[3:17:56] So just trying to figure out the best way on this. Okay.

[3:18:01] Okay. Thank, I saw Mr. JE

[3:18:04] And, and la Lastly, are we being continue to date certain,

[3:18:07] I'm sorry again, We being continued

[3:18:08] to date certain for the deliberation. We

[3:18:10] Will take this up again at the next board meeting.

[3:18:13] I think you'll get more information as we kind

[3:18:16] of compile what's been presented. Okay. Okay. Alright.

[3:18:20] That would be June 4th. June 4th.

[3:18:23] Do I ask Ms. Per to keep the sign? Do

[3:18:25] You want keep and I'll be able may

[3:18:27] I don't want see the sign.

[3:18:29] Alright gentlemen. Thank you

[3:18:30] Mr. Per, thank you very much.

[3:18:31] Thank you. Thank you. Jury.

[3:18:37] The same information, exchange of information

[3:18:40] Between, would you like that?

[3:18:42] Yes, please. All right.

[3:18:43] Well, I'll tell you what we will, Mrs.

[3:18:45] Oland, you have contact information with these folks?

[3:18:48] I believe I do. Yes. So what we get, we will,

[3:18:50] we will resource through code enforcement.

[3:18:53] Okay. Thank you. All right.

[3:18:59] Let's get onto the later part of the agenda.

[3:19:05] We gotta bring back appointment of officers

[3:19:07] of which we are a month overdue, taken care of As

[3:19:13] policies allow, each board member is allowed to

[3:19:18] select chair, vice chair

[3:19:20] or nominate chair, vice chair, secretary.

[3:19:24] If it's status quo amongst all members,

[3:19:27] you are welcome to state.

[3:19:29] So would somebody like to, Mr.

[3:19:34] Dietzel, would you like to make a nomination for chair?

[3:19:38] Yes, Mr. Chair?

[3:19:39] I'd like to nominate Lynn Perkins for chair.

[3:19:42] Okay. Mr. Corbett? Yeah, I second that nomination.

[3:19:45] All right, Mrs. Morn and Mr.

[3:19:48] Trip, do either of you have an alternative? No. Okay.

[3:19:54] All in favor of Lynn Perkins being chair. Aye. Aye. Aye.

[3:19:57] Aye. Any opposed? All right. Hearing congratulations.

[3:20:01] Thank you Mr. Corbett. Likewise.

[3:20:04] I, I ask for him to stay as vice chair

[3:20:07] and nominate him as such.

[3:20:10] Second Mr. Dietzel seconds that Mr.

[3:20:12] Tripp, you in favor of that? I am in favor of that. Ms.

[3:20:16] Mor, do you have opposition? I do not. All right.

[3:20:19] All in favor of Mr. Corbit being vice

[3:20:21] chair for another year.

[3:20:23] Say aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Any opposed? Hearing none.

[3:20:26] Thank you. April. Mrs. Moore, I would ask to be

[3:20:31] remain as secretary, board Secretary.

[3:20:33] Mr. Dietzel? What? Say you

[3:20:36] Second.

[3:20:37] All right. Thank you, Mr. Tripp. You okay with that?

[3:20:39] I'm fine with that. Mr.

[3:20:41] Corbet, any alternatives you wanna suggest? No.

[3:20:44] I think Ms. Moore has done an excellent job the last

[3:20:46] four years, give or take.

[3:20:47] All right. Good enough. All in favor of Ms.

[3:20:50] Mor remaining as secretary say, aye. Aye. Aye. Any opposed?

[3:20:54] Hearing none. Our only correspondence is a New Hampshire

[3:20:57] Town and City publication.

[3:20:59] Anybody would like to read that?

[3:21:00] You're welcome to take it home and do so. Anyone?

[3:21:05] All right. Seeing no takers, I'll take it home myself.

[3:21:09] That being said, that will wrap up this evening's session,

[3:21:14] and we will continue with the,

[3:21:17] the other cases at our next meeting, which is June 4th.

[3:21:21] Fourth, okay. Any new cases to add to the agenda?

[3:21:25] We have 2 0 2. Okay.

[3:21:27] Well, at least we're slowing down on the pace, right.

[3:21:31] All right. That means said we can take a motion to adjourn.

[3:21:35] I'll make the motion to adjourn. Thank you. Second, Mr.

[3:21:38] Omba. Seconded by Mr. Dietzel.

[3:21:40] All in favor of adjournment, say aye. Aye. Aye. Any opposed?

[3:21:43] Hearing none adjourned.

Zoning Board of Adjustments - 05/21/26

Transcript