[0:28] Welcome back to the African diaspora experience. Living narratives from Greenberg. I am Tina

[0:34] P. Dinkins, representing the Department of Community Resources. And our guest today is

[0:39] Mr. James Jackson, Biff Henderson, Jr. I left out the, I remember the Jackson and the Jr.

[0:48] That's great, all right.

[0:48] Lovingly known here in Greenberg as Biff Henderson. So I have to ask you, how did you become

[0:55] known as Biff?

[0:56] Oh, interesting. My life's journey started in the 40s, 1940s, in Durham, North Carolina,

[1:04] Jim Crow, segregated south. I have one sister that's older than I am by five or six years,

[1:11] but a friend of my mother's had a dream that she had a kid named Biff. So it's not a

[1:18] showbiz thing, it's an actual nickname that was given to me when I was born. My mother

[1:24] promised her that when she had another kid, that she wouldn't nickname the kid Vif, Boy

[1:30] or Girl, and that's me.

[1:32] And she stuck to it.

[1:33] What a great friend.

[1:34] Right.

[1:35] So you grew up in Durham, North Carolina, segregated Jim Crow, South, you said.

[1:40] Absolutely.

[1:41] As a young black male, what was that like growing up in the segregated South?

[1:45] Separate but equal is what they called it.

[1:48] But having said that it was basically true in Durham, it was not like living in

[1:53] the country, or in the suburbs, or someplace outside of a major city.

[2:00] And Durham was definitely progressive, and a city of maybe 40,000 people at the time,

[2:08] the third or fourth largest city in the state of North Carolina.

[2:13] And growing up there, in my situation, I was very humbled about it and blessed because

[2:20] I was brought up in basically a very upper middle-class environment. My parents did very

[2:27] well for themselves. Durham actually was progressive for blacks and everything was basically available.

[2:37] The largest black-owned and operated business in the world at that time was located in

[2:43] Mutual.

[2:43] Yes.

[2:44] And it was also a bank, Mechanics and Farmers Bank, Mutual Savings and Loan.

[2:50] Many, many businesses, but the equal part of this is there was one major high school

[3:00] for blacks, one major high school for whites.

[3:03] My high school was Hillside, Durham High was for whites then in accounting.

[3:08] morning, they had two or three county schools that basically went from 1st to 12th grade.

[3:18] And Northern and Southern High for Whites, they had Merrick Moore and Merrick Moore were

[3:23] two of the, was named after two of the founders of Narco-Armugia, Aaron Moore and John

[3:29] Merritt along with C. C. Spaulder.

[3:33] And having said that, every school that I attended in Durham, from elementary school straight

[3:42] through high school, was named after someone black, okay?

[3:50] It was a book of T. Washington, and like that, it was usually somebody local.

[3:54] Like W. G. Pearson in the fifth grade, I went to C. C. Spall in elementary school,

[3:59] was another one of the founders of North Carolina Mutual and the banks. And that went straight

[4:10] through high school. So, you know, it was separate equal. I mean, there was one major

[4:16] hotel for whites, one for blacks, and three theaters each, including one drive-in theater.

[4:27] Blacks could go to the White Theatres, they had to go up in the balcony, which were the

[4:36] best seats in the theater, and it really worked.

[4:40] And you know, we had fun with them throwing popcorn down there, or whatever, you know.

[4:47] I mean, they were the best seats.

[4:48] And they could come over to our theaters, but they had to sit over there.

[4:53] It was definitely separate.

[4:55] And it was weird because I grew up in an environment that was totally, you were aware of everything

[5:02] and expected, a lot was expected of you, regardless of your social or economic background, who

[5:12] have and have nots, people were unified to a degree, I'm speaking of Durham, okay,

[5:17] that you know everything was you know there and available and exposed to

[5:24] whoever you were still held to the highest standard yes and not because of

[5:28] my parents but because that's that was there that was the community that was

[5:32] the way it was and you know it's a black college in Durham North Carolina

[5:37] college and and all that you know so that's the way it was I mean I you know

[5:48] in elementary school started around 8 30 in the morning 9 o'clock we would meet

[5:54] in the auditorium of the school and we would pledge allegiance to the flag and

[6:03] sing the Black National Anthem lift the reward and lift the rewards and sing

[6:06] That was every day and this is in the 1950s. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Oh, yeah, definitely

[6:13] And probably before before I started and having said that you know

[6:18] So I know the the entire song all four verses where as I got older and met other people

[6:25] For some reason they didn't they didn't realize. Well, yeah

[6:28] I mean when you talk about the segregate itself you had in in many ways a very privileged

[6:33] upbringing because many people didn't experience separate but equal as actually separate and

[6:40] equal.

[6:41] Well, I can't honestly say if it was equal.

[6:47] I know everything, the numbers were equal, but I had nothing to compare to.

[6:54] Did you hang out with other white teens?

[6:58] Did you have white friends?

[6:59] I never knew it.

[6:59] You never knew it well.

[7:00] No reason to.

[7:02] No reason to.

[7:03] I mean you know I think they used guys used to come across and want to compete in

[7:08] maybe some sports and everything and and they would never win because we couldn't

[7:12] allow that to happen.

[7:15] I mean that's the truth yeah I don't recall you know but

[7:19] we had boys clubs, white, white MCAs, everything that you can imagine there

[7:24] were like supermarkets I mean you name it drug stores and definitely churches

[7:32] Yes.

[7:33] That type of thing.

[7:35] You know, I mentioned to a lot of people that I grew up in a city where there was actually

[7:39] a boys club.

[7:40] They say, you had a boys club, you know.

[7:42] I say, yep.

[7:43] John Avery Boys Club.

[7:44] For a young black man.

[7:45] Yeah.

[7:46] And it was actually named after a black person, you know.

[7:50] And so the identity in the relationship was there, you know.

[7:55] I never felt, yeah, I knew segregation was there.

[8:00] I knew Jim Crow existed but you know it was it was that's the way it was I heard

[8:08] that one of your childhood friends was the very very famous Arthur Ashe oh yes

[8:13] how did you meet Arthur Ashe was that high school elementary school well we

[8:17] actually I played tennis okay growing up I was a pretty serious tennis player

[8:23] And at that time, down in Durham, blacks had actual tennis clubs.

[8:30] I mean, I'm not talking about a group of people meeting in the park.

[8:32] I'm talking about building.

[8:34] A whole tennis club.

[8:35] Yeah, an actual tennis club.

[8:37] And at that time, there was the ATA, which was the American Tennis Association, which

[8:41] was basically black.

[8:43] And the USLTA, which was the United States Law and Tennis Association, which was

[8:49] white.

[8:50] When I was coming along, Althea Gibson sort of had already broken the coal line.

[8:57] There were a lot of tournaments all over the country.

[8:59] The A.T. was a really big deal.

[9:02] I mean, we'd go to tournaments and there were a lot of entries.

[9:07] But Ash, what happened, there was a lady in Durham named Mrs. B.A.J. with it.

[9:12] And she was very active in the community.

[9:15] She worked for Norco Immune to Life Insurance Company as a treasurer and she was big into

[9:24] tennis from what I understand very instrumental in Althea's career along with a man named

[9:32] Dr. Hubert Eaton from Wilmington, North Carolina.

[9:37] At any rate, I was like about five, maybe six or seven years old, I was fling.

[9:42] And Mrs. Whittitt called my parents and asked if this young man from Richmond could stay

[9:49] at our house.

[9:50] And he was competing in the tournament.

[9:54] And yes, my parents said, yeah, and it was Ash.

[9:58] And so we became friends that way.

[10:01] And he was a little hitter this time in the game and another thing, very bright

[10:04] guy.

[10:06] And I won my first trophy with him.

[10:09] Oh, wow.

[10:11] And what happened was we were sitting around the dinner table and Ash said that he wanted

[10:19] to play doubles in the tournament, but he didn't have a partner.

[10:24] So my parents said, well, why don't you take this?

[10:27] And if he was still living, he may be a year older than I am, okay?

[10:32] So the three divisions in the ATA were the 12 and under, year olds, 13 and 15 and 15 and 18.

[10:40] And we were in the 12 and under.

[10:43] And he said, oh, I'll do that.

[10:46] And so I won my first trophy.

[10:48] He won the first trophy.

[10:50] I was just his partner.

[10:53] He actually won the trophy.

[10:55] That's incredible.

[10:56] Yeah, he was that good.

[10:57] And then we were made friends all the way up until his death actually.

[11:01] So what was it like watching him soar and become who he became in the tennis world?

[11:05] I mean, it was expected. I mean, there were a lot of good black tennis players out there,

[11:09] but you know, his story is his story. And it's fair. I mean, he was ready for that.

[11:15] And it wasn't an easy task, but he succeeded at that.

[11:19] And I think he would have succeeded at anything that he did.

[11:22] And he did. He was just that kind of guy. Kind of like someone else we know.

[11:24] You went to one of the greatest historically black colleges in the country.

[11:30] Hampton University by Alma Mater. I wonder why you say it was so good. What

[11:37] guided you to Hampton, Virginia? What guided you to that particular school?

[11:41] Because it sounds like you were incredibly bright, very well involved. Yes,

[11:46] I'm listening to you. You won a trophy with Arthur Ashe. What made you pick

[11:49] Hampton University to continue your education? It wasn't much of a choice.

[11:54] I mean it was a choice I had. I mean my father, everybody in my family, attended

[11:59] to Hampton just about family tradition yeah undergrad my father actually was the

[12:05] first black member of the trustee boy at Hampton and he was the first black

[12:10] chairman of the trustee boy at Hampton my sister had attended Hampton other

[12:15] relatives and so I went after high school to pre-college at Hampton and I

[12:23] actually didn't attend my first year my freshman year I went to Tennessee State

[12:27] on the tennis offer, because they were trying to get a tennis program going. And I went

[12:38] out there and I enjoyed it. I had an uncle who was working at Fiske, teaching at Fiske

[12:44] who eventually became a president at Clark College in Atlanta. But anyway, I transferred

[12:50] back to Hampton at the end of my freshman year at Tennessee State. I had gone to pre-college

[12:58] the year before and that was the summer, well that was the summer of 1963. I had been involved

[13:06] very heavily in the Civil Rights Movement, protesting down south. So I had gone to the

[13:11] March on Washington in 1963. And then I went back to Hampton and when I got there,

[13:18] the tennis coach wanted me to come out for the team and I did I went out for a

[13:23] few days and I just had hit a wall I played too much and so I dropped it for

[13:30] quite a few years but how I was convinced to go to Hampton it was like

[13:35] one of those things that to a degree I guess you could say family tradition

[13:40] but also I kind of grew up on the campus yeah so having said that you

[13:47] You know, people said to me, you know, you know, your legacy with Hampton, you know,

[13:53] this than the other.

[13:55] And it's a good school, conducive for studying, make friends for life, and a lot of good stuff.

[14:01] Oh, that is true.

[14:02] You are actually one of the reasons I chose to go to Yale University.

[14:04] Oh, is that right?

[14:05] Yes.

[14:05] You and Ted Jones.

[14:07] Yes, of course.

[14:08] Well, I'm sure you don't regret it.

[14:09] I hope so.

[14:10] I do not.

[14:11] Never will.

[14:11] You shouldn't tell me about all the fun when we walk around.

[14:13] It was that too, we learned a lot, it was a lot of fun.

[14:17] So you grew up in this segregated cell and then went to an HBCU and then you served in

[14:23] Vietnam, thank you for your service.

[14:25] I was drafted.

[14:26] Yeah.

[14:27] Okay.

[14:28] So here, so Vietnam was...

[14:30] Put you up.

[14:32] Vietnam was the first war, I believe, where black troops and white troops were

[14:38] not segregated.

[14:41] You know, maybe I'm learning something I didn't know.

[14:44] Okay, so I was going to ask you, because you talked very much about growing up very separate.

[14:50] And HBCUs are historically black colleges and universities.

[14:54] So when you were deployed and were serving in Vietnam, I would imagine you were less separate.

[15:00] Well, let's back up for a second here. Let's understand something. Another reason I may have

[15:05] gone to Hampton probably did. See, I was never in a classroom with anyone white, and I never

[15:11] had a white instructor all the way through college. I was never in the minority, basically.

[15:20] So when they were talking about things like entitlement and everything, I thought they

[15:23] were talking about me.

[15:26] I didn't realize that you were, am I not right?

[15:31] I knew I was being discriminated against, but I had never been in... Everything that I had

[15:40] experienced to that point and beyond was made sure that it happened. Teachers always

[15:49] were looking out for everybody, everything. I mean, you know, if something happened in

[15:55] Durham, for instance,

[15:59] you know, there were black detectives, black police officers and

[16:02] everything, and if you did anything, anything happened. Your parents knew about it before

[16:06] you got home, and that's not a joke. I mean, they really did. They, well, get your

[16:10] own switch, whatever you want, you know. And, you know, having said that, I just

[16:17] This wasn't in that situation, if that was a question.

[16:20] Well, it's a different experience.

[16:22] So when you get to Vietnam, are you fighting alongside white soldiers?

[16:27] So this is the first time, is this the first time, would you say, in your life that you

[16:33] weren't separate from them?

[16:35] Well, no, no.

[16:36] At that point, yes, I had met a few white friends, and so I knew some people.

[16:45] people. But to that degree, yeah, probably, you know, people that I felt I could trust.

[16:52] And I felt comfortable around. Vietnam was a different experience. I was drafted in 1968,

[17:03] and it was a situation where I was doing the Tet Offensive, which they say was the

[17:13] time. I was an older guy. I had been to college. I was 21, 22. Most of the guys over there were

[17:20] 18, 19. I mean, I learned things that I did not need to know and wish I didn't know to some degree.

[17:28] I'm glad, and in the other ways I'm glad I know. I remember the first thing that was said

[17:34] to us was about 50 of us in a place bigger than this whole building. I'll never forget what this

[17:41] big sergeant came in there and said, and this is what he said, he said, gentlemen, welcome

[17:48] to the Republic of South Vietnam where life has no value except to the one that owns it.

[17:55] And that's the hard one to swallow.

[17:58] He was right.

[17:59] I mean, it was the truth, but it's something you didn't need to know.

[18:04] And then when you end up in a combat situation, in my case, it was rather scary.

[18:08] It's something that you do get used to, but it was a wake-up call.

[18:15] And I wouldn't wish it on, you know, my worst enemy, but I survived, and there's a reason

[18:21] why I'm here for whatever that reason is, if I fulfill it.

[18:26] And I did 13 and a half months over there, and when I came back home, they didn't recognize

[18:38] Vietnam veteran, there's anything other than, I don't know how to, we weren't recognized.

[18:44] There was nothing, nothing there, you know, and then when, you know, I started my professional

[18:51] career after that and I took advantage of the G.I. Bill back to some education points

[18:56] and I started taking courses in New York City down at Pace University by City Hall

[19:01] in Manhattan.

[19:02] And that was the first time I was up in a classroom with more whites than me.

[19:09] You know, like three of us in there.

[19:11] Did serving in Vietnam with white soldiers change your view on race relations or race

[19:16] politics?

[19:17] Yeah.

[19:17] I guess it may have.

[19:18] I just don't know.

[19:19] You know, I looked at humans as humans and I still do.

[19:24] If a person has their hang-ups, that's their problem.

[19:28] That's not mine.

[19:29] That's not my problem.

[19:29] I'm going to treat you the way I want to treat you and that's the way it is.

[19:35] So you go from being separate as a child to being around white people in the war and then

[19:40] you said when you got out and you went to school that was your first time in the classroom.

[19:43] Did you feel like you had to adapt?

[19:45] Did you feel like you had to?

[19:46] Well there was some adapting to do like for instance when I was taking the course, had

[19:51] a professor and there was three of us in the class, I mean in blacks.

[19:55] I just realized that we weren't being called on.

[20:00] Oh.

[20:00] Yeah, we weren't being called on.

[20:02] Which is new for you.

[20:03] Very new.

[20:03] Which was very new.

[20:04] Yes.

[20:05] And after one class, I said to a couple of the guys, I said, we've got to speak up on

[20:11] this one, man.

[20:12] You know, this guy acts like we're not even here.

[20:14] And we did.

[20:16] And I'm not going to call his name, I'm sure he's not living, but that's beside

[20:19] the point.

[20:20] And we brought it up to him, and he said that, he said, you know, I appreciate, he really

[20:27] appreciated it.

[20:28] He said, because we weren't the first ones to bring that to his attention.

[20:32] Really?

[20:32] He said he had other students bring that to his attention.

[20:36] I said, yeah, we're not, it's like we're not even here, you know, and it didn't change

[20:42] him.

[20:43] It didn't change after that?

[20:45] Oh boy.

[20:46] Okay.

[20:46] I mean, you know, I think he saw us occasionally, you know, whatever, but that didn't take away

[20:52] from the fact of what we were there to learn.

[20:54] To learn, yeah.

[20:55] Yeah.

[20:55] And so whatever he said, we were getting it anyway, you know, so it was, that was his

[21:02] loss, no doubt.

[21:03] You know, he didn't know what we knew.

[21:05] And I don't know whether it changed my mind or attitude.

[21:11] I was growing up.

[21:12] Yeah.

[21:12] I was growing up.

[21:13] It was a learning experience.

[21:14] So let's talk about David Letterman. How did you get from finishing your education credits

[21:22] to being such a major part of the David Letterman experience?

[21:28] That's an interesting question.

[21:31] I was working in Nashville after Vietnam for American Airlines

[21:37] airlines. And airlines didn't pay much money. And back in those days, in the late sixties,

[21:45] early seventies, you had to be earning at least $13,000 a year to get a credit card.

[21:53] And I wasn't doing it. I had a Corford card, but you couldn't use it for personal use.

[21:59] So the credit card, I mean, so I wasn't making any money.

[22:06] I went on a job interview in New York, down in Rockefeller Center, with the Hertz Corporation.

[22:16] And this is back in the early 70s, and security was not an issue in builders.

[22:24] You could walk in and out of buildings, like it's nothing.

[22:28] And I left the interview, going back to my hotel, and I'm walking down the card in

[22:36] 30 Rock, and I had to go to the bathroom real bad.

[22:40] This is a true story.

[22:42] And I asked someone where the bathroom was, and they told me to go to the second floor

[22:50] and directed me to it.

[22:51] So I'm in there doing my business, and I hear this very distinguished voice behind me, how

[22:58] are you today, young man?

[23:00] The very distinguished little man with his bow tie on, and his broom, and his dust

[23:06] fan.

[23:07] He was a janitor.

[23:08] And a bow tie.

[23:10] And a bow tie.

[23:11] And he said, and his name was Gene Sanders.

[23:14] I dedicate everything of my career to him.

[23:16] Oh.

[23:17] Okay?

[23:18] And we had a conversation and he asked me where I was from and blah, blah, blah.

[23:24] Then he said to me, he said, what brings you to NBC?

[23:29] I didn't even know I was at NBC.

[23:31] I had no clue.

[23:32] I had to go to the bathroom.

[23:33] And so we talked for a few minutes and then he said, well, what are you doing?

[23:37] I thought I was going back to my hotel and back to Nashville.

[23:39] He said, I'd like to introduce you to some people and he introduced me to this

[23:43] man named Peter Tentul and eventually to a man named Lutz Summel and I'll never forget

[23:50] and some other people. And that was the end of that. I left my resume, went back to Nashville

[23:59] and thought I'd never hear from them again, you know, that's the end of that. But I did.

[24:03] I don't even recall if I was even offered a job with Hertz. I don't think so.

[24:12] But

[24:12] They called me in and they offered me a job in the sales department.

[24:17] Now, I took the job and I'm making money and at

[24:25] that time, the three major networks,

[24:28] NBC, ABC, and CBS, that was it, and I liked the day.

[24:34] And there was another black guy on the staff, about a year or so, maybe a little less into

[24:43] did his sales job. Myself and two other guys called in and the network wanted to go into

[24:48] the overnight business and there was nothing on. NBC, for instance, at 12.30 when Johnny

[24:55] Carson and the Tonight Show would go on, nothing came on until seven o'clock in the morning.

[25:00] And they wanted to sell time when nothing's on. Intangible, can't see touches, nothing's

[25:07] there, how do you sell that? How do you get rid of that? So, you know, the person that

[25:16] was in charge, the president of the vice president of the department,

[25:23] she called us in, and

[25:26] I think she made a mistake in my opinion, said, just get rid of it, other stuff.

[25:32] And so we came up with the idea of giving it away for free, and for six weeks or

[25:39] something like that. And we put the proposals together with the legal department and everybody

[25:45] else signed off on it. And the guy on Madison Avenue, one of the agents said, he said, he

[25:52] implied that they were setting me up to field. I didn't see it quite that way, you know.

[25:58] But regardless of whether that was the case, that particular project worked out to a

[26:04] degree to a law degree and eventually everybody came on board and and and I

[26:10] don't consider it being a pioneer thing that was just a job. But proud of that they

[26:16] were wondering where the money was because no money was coming in and whose

[26:21] idea was this and naturally they pointed the fingers at me even though it

[26:26] wasn't totally me and she said well if you're that creative maybe we should

[26:31] to try production. And I said oh, okay. And I knew people, producers, directors and talent

[26:36] in that end of it. And so I took a, like a lower paying job, I was a married, it was

[26:44] just me. I could take the risk. And I took the job, a lower paying job in a scheduling

[26:51] an area where cameraman, makeup artist, wardrobe, stage directors, social directors, stage managers,

[27:03] stage hands, everybody was scheduled and these were ego testicle people because they were

[27:09] making money so it was a very, very hard job, dealing with personalities.

[27:13] And I took that job with the interest and intentions of eventually getting into production

[27:20] And I saw that as an avenue of being able to get in the studios and see what happened

[27:25] and observe what's happening.

[27:29] And my boss at the time, a man named Tom Smiley, he knew I was doing this because other

[27:37] people were going that same path in order to get into different things.

[27:40] He wanted me to deal with audio but no I wanted to get into more of the production

[27:46] and stage managing or whatever.

[27:48] And then they had a vacation relief program at NBC, and they hired me for the summer.

[27:55] And vacation relief was an opportunity to do all types of different jobs, okay?

[28:02] And usually ran from maybe Memorial Day to Thanksgiving.

[28:08] Just so when people went on vacation, you feel informed, crazy, I was hired during

[28:13] and stage managing, but I had to join the director's guild, which is a good thing.

[28:19] And he told me, he said, now don't get comfortable because it's not going to last.

[28:24] You're going to get laid off.

[28:26] But I was hoping I would be able to go back into the scheduling, which happened, which

[28:29] actually happened.

[28:30] I went back into the scheduling around November, so I had the opportunity to work the

[28:34] Macy's for Raid that year.

[28:35] I went back and then they called me back again and said you know you gonna put

[28:42] you back at temporary case relief and the word is out around Durham and places

[28:54] that I'm working at NBC but I'm not that's all I'm doing it's working at

[29:00] NBC. I don't have any big contacts or anything going on. And I'm walking down Fifth Avenue

[29:09] one day and going to work. And this guy, I don't know if you're familiar with him, his

[29:18] name is Ernie Barnes. He's fast away. He was an artist. He did all the background paintings

[29:24] for good times. All those paintings in the background. And all those paintings are

[29:29] about Durham, Sugar Shack, the Arbidee Pool Room. That's all it's about. Okay. And he

[29:35] was having a show up on 57th Street someplace and he wanted me to come and I

[29:42] assumed, I don't know this to be a fact, but I was thinking that he's thinking

[29:46] maybe I could get him on a today's show, you know, but I wasn't... You didn't have any major content. I knew the people, but I wasn't there.

[30:00] And, uh,

[30:03] I'm doing this vacation relief thing, and I'm getting ready to get laid off again,

[30:08] and I get a phone call. I don't know how the guy tracked me down. I really don't. We became

[30:13] friends after this. But he tracked me down, and he said to me, and it was Jimmy Walker,

[30:20] by the way.

[30:21] Oh, my goodness.

[30:22] J.J.

[30:23] From Good Time.

[30:23] Yeah. And, see, David Letterman, Jay Leno, and Byron Allen were writers for Jimmy Walker.

[30:33] Oh my goodness, I never knew that.

[30:35] Yeah. Not for good times.

[30:38] Right.

[30:38] They stand up.

[30:39] Mm-hmm.

[30:40] Okay.

[30:41] Wow.

[30:41] Yeah. And he said that something like this guy named David Letterman is going to get

[30:48] the summer replacement show at NBC in the morning live from 9 to 10 30 so I

[30:56] meant Dave yeah I like to meet him you sure I don't you know he remembers this

[31:01] I mean a letterman but he said he said listen whatever happens don't get

[31:09] comfortable with this cuz it's not going to prepare yeah don't boy if only

[31:16] they knew. It didn't last. I know but look how far you went. But that show did not last.

[31:23] No, it was canceled. It was canceled. The relationship lasted. Oh yeah, that show was

[31:29] canceled. The morning show. That's six months. And I think they kept them on retainer. You

[31:35] know, I hope I'm being accurate. I'm not, I'm close to it. Anyway, now I'm getting

[31:40] ready to go back into this scheduling thing again. And I get a call from my

[31:46] boss to come into the office. And it was another guy, now also on the morning

[31:51] show, let me back up a second, let him in. I don't know what they thought about me,

[31:58] but they must have thought something was funny. His girlfriend at the time,

[32:05] Marko, she was the producer and I think she had something to do with it. I'm not sure.

[32:08] Anyway, when they said here's David Letterman instead of him coming out he pushed me out there

[32:16] I had no problem with that right I went down there, but he came right out and pushed me out the way

[32:21] So anyway, they started using me doing a little skits and stuff. So I had to join after

[32:27] Now I'm an after yeah

[32:30] Union yeah, both of them

[32:32] And after and then sag after join

[32:36] together eventually

[32:37] so

[32:38] they call me into the office and it's a guy from the director's guild sitting

[32:43] there and I'm telling you what in the world is this all about and a boy says to me

[32:49] he said we got a permanent position for you faith and destiny basically we

[32:54] talked about yeah and he said he said we got a permanent position for you a

[32:59] staff position I said oh this is great and that was in there after a few words

[33:03] And then as I'm getting up to leave, I know the fellow who discovered this thing, he was

[33:12] a staff guy.

[33:13] And so the guy from the director's guild said, aren't you going to tell them why he's got

[33:17] a permanent position?

[33:18] Well, the agreement between NBC, CBS and ABC at the time was that anyone that had a

[33:24] permanent assignment for six months had to be maybe a permanent employee.

[33:31] Now I'm in.

[33:33] And eventually time goes by and Letterman comes back with a late night show at NBC.

[33:39] And I did that with him for 11 years.

[33:43] We did the show basically, I think, four days a week, three weeks a month, which left

[33:47] me with the opportunity to do all kinds of other stuff.

[33:50] I was doing Miss America, Miss Everything, Space Shuttles, Super Bowls, you name

[33:58] all over the world.

[33:59] Everything was happening.

[34:00] money's being made, I'm married, my kids are coming along, everything's real cool.

[34:07] And then here comes this big button here with Jay Leno and the Tonight Show, okay, and Letterman

[34:16] says I'm out.

[34:19] And he goes to CBS but he wants me to come along with some other people that were working

[34:24] at NBC.

[34:25] you see. I had reservation about it because of the fact that who knew if it was gonna work.

[34:31] Yeah, who knew if it was gonna work. I got a job. I got a permanent job. But they were

[34:36] making offices that you can't refuse, it was hard. And I wasn't gonna go to California,

[34:41] and I didn't know what you were doing. They decided to do it at Ed Sullivan Theater.

[34:44] Things got better. Big shots of CBS had me come down there, and they said, yeah,

[34:50] You're coming, and they may ask for more icing on the cake.

[34:54] And we've been at CBS, I'm in NBC for 11 years, and then we did 22 years at CBS, 32 years

[35:02] all total.

[35:03] I was able to travel all over the place with Olympics and other things with the show.

[35:09] As a result of the show, I went to Bosnia twice, Afghanistan once, and Iraq twice,

[35:15] of the USO, you know, support troops, and all that,

[35:18] that only went, and Paul Schaefer, you know.

[35:23] And we always got along.

[35:25] I mean, he's a very, very generous guy.

[35:28] I don't say that because I work for him.

[35:29] You know, I just say it because it's a fact.

[35:31] And he does a lot of charity stuff, and it's very generous.

[35:36] Well, clearly he trusted you, which he should have

[35:37] because you're a big part of all of his shows.

[35:40] He made sure that you were, but people enjoyed.

[35:42] I was one of the people.

[35:43] Well, I appreciate that.

[35:45] Who enjoyed all the skits and your funny personality and your comments, Harry.

[35:52] People would ask me that question a lot of times, just not only in the street, but other

[35:57] places in interviews, they say, well, doesn't that bother you, weren't you nervous being

[36:02] on TV and all?

[36:03] I say, what is it to be concerned about when you don't know what you're doing?

[36:07] And it seemed very natural for you.

[36:09] And you were just, you were funny.

[36:10] You were, you know, you hear claims like you just became his famous producer, one of our

[36:16] favorite parts, one of our favorite, one of our favorite features from the day before.

[36:19] Well, you know, if it helped to make things work, it definitely did.

[36:26] And then I was on board.

[36:27] I had no problem with that.

[36:28] I have to ask you, so the media industry is known for not always treating its black

[36:34] black artists and producers fairly, and yet you were able to navigate the industry with

[36:40] much success.

[36:42] Thank you.

[36:43] Why do you think that is?

[36:45] Do you think you did something different?

[36:46] Do you think it was just ...

[36:48] Gene Sanders.

[36:49] Yeah.

[36:50] Okay.

[36:50] Yeah.

[36:51] Faith, destiny.

[36:52] Faith and destiny.

[36:53] I don't know, you know, but I know one thing, yeah, I was there to do a job, make

[37:00] it work and I wasn't kissing up to anybody or nothing like that.

[37:08] I can't honestly answer

[37:13] the question because I mean that's where I was pursuing it and I wasn't going to burn

[37:20] in the bridges.

[37:21] That's an important lesson though. One of my colleagues taught me I never burned bridges

[37:25] but you said something about your childhood and your upbringing that I think is important

[37:28] and two, which is that the entire time you were growing up,

[37:31] even though the community was separate but equal,

[37:33] that everyone that was around you

[37:35] held you to the highest standard.

[37:37] Not only me.

[37:38] Yep.

[37:39] And so I think that that,

[37:40] when we get into a professional work environment,

[37:42] those types of standards from our childhood kick in, you

[37:47] know?

[37:48] They do.

[37:48] And I'm sure you always delivered.

[37:50] They do.

[37:51] They do.

[37:51] I mean, I could sit here all day

[37:53] and talk for hours about different experiences

[37:56] that he'd probably say that's impossible. It didn't happen, but it did. I mean, just

[38:01] different things that really, really happened. I mean,

[38:09] it's a blessing.

[38:12] Have you ever googled yourself?

[38:14] For what?

[38:15] I googled you.

[38:16] I know you did.

[38:17] It's incredible. You're everywhere. You're everywhere. You've got pictures with Kobe

[38:23] Bryant, who's my favorite basketball player of all time. You've got pictures with

[38:26] Bruce Willis and Michael Strahan and Terry Gar and like how does it how do you

[38:31] feel when you're out about in the community and do people you're a

[38:35] celebrity. How do you handle that? I just have to deal with it I mean I can't get

[38:40] an attitude all the time. I mean I was in a drug store one day and I was ready

[38:45] because these kids working behind the counter were taking too long and I'm

[38:48] ready. I was I was actually in there with Michael Kay when he lived around here.

[38:56] I don't know if they recognize him, but I'm ready to tell these kids to hurry up, got to

[39:02] go and I turned around and somebody said, oh, hey, Biffin, I said, damn, I can't even

[39:06] get an attitude out here.

[39:08] I can't even get an attitude.

[39:10] So, you know, I mean, I don't know what to say, you know, but it's true.

[39:14] I mean, it's just, it's, what was your question?

[39:20] Is it hard to be a celebrity, like especially in a town like Greenberg, which is not huge,

[39:24] you know everybody kind of knows you. I mean I've gotten it other places. But let

[39:30] you know that you're getting older because most of the people are old and

[39:33] they'll be saying, hey, they're the speaking. I know a lot of the other kids.

[39:37] Now you might be aging, your energy is very young. Oh no, no, no. I'm talking

[39:42] about people who watch the show, who remember. You know, a lot of them, there's a

[39:49] lot of young young people you know I did you mention Kobe Bryant and those guys

[39:57] every time I hear those names stories come to mind yeah yeah I mean like Michael

[40:04] Strahan you know he used to use him a lot when the Giants were doing very well

[40:09] and winning Super Bowls and he was very good and very funny and once he stopped

[40:17] playing professional football and started getting into television and stuff and and he

[40:24] every time I'd see him he said to me he said you know not that I wasn't interested in this

[40:29] but the reason is because of you meaning me I didn't look at it that way I never thought

[40:33] he said you were the first one to put me on tv doing anything outside of a football field

[40:39] and I didn't know it I mean I didn't look at it it was crazy it was stupid

[40:42] But he's really wild with crazy stuff.

[40:46] And then, you know, you mentioned Kobe, God rest his soul.

[40:50] Yeah.

[40:51] What is the one thing, the one, maybe not story,

[40:54] what's the one piece of advice you would give

[40:56] to aspiring media professionals today?

[40:59] So we're coming out like Michael Strahan said,

[41:01] you kind of inspired him.

[41:02] Listen, the entertainment business in my opinion

[41:05] is only about two things.

[41:09] Temporary work and rejection.

[41:11] That's all it is.

[41:13] Nobody has a job.

[41:15] You know, they have projects.

[41:17] You might end up getting a job for a long period of time,

[41:20] but nine times out of ten, it doesn't last.

[41:24] We got blessed with 30-something years.

[41:27] That's very, very well.

[41:28] I think the show maybe still is the longest-running

[41:32] late-night show.

[41:33] I think Kimmel is catching up.

[41:34] He's close to 30, believe it or not.

[41:36] I think he's close to about 30.

[41:38] So, having said that, it's temporary work and rejection.

[41:41] I encourage everybody and anybody that wants to do this stuff to get to do it.

[41:47] We're talking in front of the camera now, okay?

[41:52] But, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's, there's no guarantee.

[41:58] Yeah.

[41:58] I mean, it's kind of, I know people with more talent out here and people with talent

[42:02] that nobody will ever see because they can't handle that rejection.

[42:05] Yeah.

[42:05] It's tough.

[42:07] You need a thick skin.

[42:09] Oh.

[42:12] Trust me.

[42:14] Thank you so much for sharing everything you shared with us today and for being here.

[42:19] You're more than welcome.

[42:20] I enjoyed it.

[42:21] I hope it works out for you.

[42:23] Oh, thank you.

[42:23] I got to spend this time with you, so it's already worked out.

[42:26] Thank you so much, and we'll see you on our next African Diaspora experience.

Feb 19, 2025 The African Diaspora Experience, Biff Henderson - Greenburgh Public Access TV

Transcript