[0:06] like to call this meeting to order of the Geneva Historic Preservation

[0:10] Commission for Tuesday, August 18th, 2026.

[0:15] Can you call the role? >> Zelmer

[0:18] » here. >> Tobler

[0:20] » here. >> Jensen

[0:23] McManis >> here.

[0:25] » Phillips >> here. Reie Solomon.

[0:31] » Okay, we do have a quorum. So, we'll start with the five minute field guide.

[0:38] » Oh, I'm sorry. Approval of minutes. >> Jeez, I'm out of practice.

[0:43] Uh, approval of the story uh the meeting minutes for July 21st. Uh, can I get a

[0:49] motion to approve? >> Motion to approve.

[0:52] » Second. >> Okay. Call the RO. Zelmer

[0:56] » abstain. >> Tobler

[0:59] » I >> uh Mcmanis

[1:01] » I >> Phillips

[1:03] » I >> motion passes. Okay now we can go right

[1:07] to the fiveminute field guide. >> Okay

[1:10] » take it away Emma. >> Thank you. So today's fiveminute field

[1:14] guide we're going to zoom in. I've actually done this I think four or five

[1:17] times this month so it's been top of mind for me. And we're going to zoom in

[1:21] on looking at dating and researching based on hardware inside of a home or a

[1:27] commercial building [clears throat] too, but I've been doing it mostly at homes.

[1:31] So, first we can talk about hardware. So, nails and screws and those types of

[1:35] fasteners. Um, and there are lots of ways that

[1:39] fasteners like this can help us state. For example, handdrawn nails are usually

[1:45] a sign that you're looking at pre-800 construction. You can see that on the

[1:48] far left of this nice little chart here. Um, and wire nails really came in to

[1:54] being around 1900. So, when you're looking at the nails physically holding

[1:58] your building together, sometimes you can see by what type they were about

[2:02] when those nails were put into the building. So, this can either mean

[2:05] that's when it was originally constructed or if there were additions

[2:08] when those additions were slowly added on. You'll see a lot of properties that

[2:12] have multiple different kinds of nails or screws. That typically means

[2:15] additions and things changed over time. Um, you can also look at patas and

[2:20] things with fasteners like this. So, the metal material might either change color

[2:25] itself or it might change things like the wood or stone around it. That can

[2:29] often be a sign that it's been there for a while. If there's no patina or

[2:32] staining, that could be a sign that uh that was a replica fastener and was put

[2:38] in later. It could also mean nothing, but it's something to keep in mind and

[2:42] keep an eye on. There was uh

[2:47] nails and screws were a lot harder to make. This might surprise you when they

[2:51] were hand wrought or weren't as easily machine-made. There is a fun little myth

[2:55] that people would burn their properties down and go through the ashes for the

[2:59] nails and screws to reuse and do that on purpose.

[3:03] It's not really probably true that they were purposely building burnings down

[3:07] when they were moving just to get nails and screws, but it is probably true that

[3:10] nails and screws get would get reused a lot. So, that's sort of an interesting

[3:13] trend to also keep an eye on when you're doing analysis like this, just to

[3:17] understand, you know, this might be from a pre- 1800 building, but it might even

[3:21] be from earlier and it was reused because they only had so many hand rot

[3:25] nails. You can also look at sort of the

[3:29] production type and production formats of different hardes. This example

[3:35] specifically are uh row iron latch bars and locks from the older slide convent

[3:40] down in New Orleans. That dates to 1752. So that's well before cast iron, which

[3:46] is the other type of iron, which we'll actually be seeing tonight. Uh really

[3:51] got came popular in New Orleans. Cast iron really became popular around 1850.

[3:57] So when you're looking at a property like this, if we didn't know that it was

[4:00] built in 1752, which we do because this is a pretty notable building, we could

[4:04] at least say, okay, this is rod iron, not cast. It's probably from before

[4:09] 1850. It's also useful to know those types of production methods when you're

[4:14] looking to replace things. In the case of this building, you can see on the

[4:17] left, they keep a lot of their old hardware up in the attic. That's like

[4:21] their hardware room where you can kind of dig through and find replacements for

[4:24] anything you might need. That's not really common. That's a very lucky thing

[4:29] for that building to have >> the the convent.

[4:32] » Oh, okay. >> So, um yeah, the convent stores like

[4:37] that's all of their matching to the hardware that they have. Um so, they

[4:43] it's good to know that for when you are looking to replace things so that you

[4:46] can look in the right places to replace when you don't have a handy dandy attic

[4:50] that's 200 years old full of everything you might ever need.

[4:55] And then this is really what I've been doing. Like I said, I've done this a

[4:58] couple times this month, so it's been top of mind. A lot of hardware,

[5:02] especially as you got further into the late 1800s and then basically on has

[5:08] been mass- prodduced over time, and a lot of that comes out of cataloges,

[5:12] which I'm sure you've all seen some things of or heard of like a Sears

[5:16] catalog, a Sears catalog house. You could also buy your hardware from a SE a

[5:20] catalog of all different brands. This is a trick that I use pretty frequently to

[5:25] date hardware, both to date the houses themselves and to look at if it's

[5:29] possible to replace hardware in kind or just to know more about sort of the

[5:33] people that were living in a property. This uh house specifically is Piner

[5:38] Mansion or the Martin Mitchell mansion in Neighborville. You might have seen it

[5:42] before. It's a neighbor settlement and it's sort of a Victorian eclectic

[5:46] property with some Italian 8 uh and Queen Anne influences. And we also know

[5:51] the family was really into the exoticism trend that was going on at the time of

[5:55] its construction, which was 1883. And you can kind of see that in these hinges

[5:59] and uh doorork knobs. This is their front door that they use. They're sort

[6:04] of pulling in some of those more uh trendy at the time exoticism imagery

[6:10] into even just the very detailed hardware of their property. So, if I

[6:15] didn't know what date this house was produced, I could look at the style and

[6:19] generally judge it as mid 1800s, early 1900s, and then I could start zooming in

[6:23] on the details like this hardware. And what I've been doing this month a lot is

[6:28] pulling it into this handy dandy thing called reverse image Google searching.

[6:33] Uh, so this is me pulling it right into that on Google. You can see down at the

[6:38] bottom there's an AI mode, all answers, exact matches, visual matches. I tend to

[6:43] avoid the AI mode, especially right now. It can kind of pull from a lot of

[6:49] different things and it doesn't always notice the exact details of specific

[6:53] hardware like this just because that's a very sort of small thing for it to look

[6:58] at and it is tending right now to look more generally at things. So I what I do

[7:04] is actually go to the visual matches tab and start using my human eyes that

[7:09] notice the exact details that I need to look through and find something that's

[7:13] similar. Places that I tend to look for are sort

[7:17] of reuse sites, eBay, auction sites, that type of thing. And it's really me

[7:24] taking advantage of the fact that I don't have every catalog ever memorized

[7:27] quite yet. I don't even really have every catalog that was commonly used in

[7:31] Geneva quite yet. But, uh, it does start, you start seeing repeats as you

[7:36] go through town. So, I know that other people have a lot more experience with

[7:40] this. And I know that if I go on these auction sites, I can frequently find

[7:43] repeats because they were mass-produced. So, in this case, on that top left, I

[7:48] saw that that was an exact match up in Urban Remain Chicago. and I was able to

[7:53] click into it and find that in its description it mentioned that it was

[7:57] made by the Brford Lock Works. Now, the one thing I do know is where to find all

[8:02] of these different cataloges because there's a couple different options that

[8:04] I'll show you in a minute um where they might be. So, I went to my databases,

[8:09] found some of the Brford Lock Works cataloges that we still have existing

[8:14] and which are digitized today for free, which is very nice, and scanned through

[8:19] and found the exact doorork knob and hinges that I was looking for. This

[8:25] specific catalog was published in 1881. It was pretty typical that they would

[8:29] sell the same things year after year, or at least for a couple years. So, there's

[8:32] sort of a range there. And 1881 is actually really close to that 1883

[8:36] construction date. So now I have the date construction date of the house

[8:41] narrowed down to within two years of its actual construction date just from

[8:45] looking up these hinges and doorork knobs and spending some time going

[8:49] through cataloges and finding what other people have also been able to discover.

[8:56] So the things that I really pay attention to when I'm doing research

[8:59] like this is that I'm looking at regional trends. I know the exoticism

[9:03] was huge around here. I know about when the Queen Anne and the Italian a sale

[9:08] started coming in and out of style around here. I also know, for example,

[9:12] for the New Orleans site that cast iron came into style in the 1850s. In a lot

[9:17] of other places in the US, that came into style a little bit earlier. So,

[9:21] that helps date things in that way, too. I also make sure I'm using reliable

[9:24] sources. My goal is always to get to the primary source. So that's the catalog,

[9:28] not a second or third tertiary source like those eBay sites that just kind of

[9:33] say what they think it is. I like to find exactly where things came from. I

[9:37] think that's very important when you're trying to date things this specifically.

[9:41] And then also just using all the clues you have. So starting with that style

[9:45] and sometimes you can even go into that search bar

[9:48] up here and add to your search, you know, 1850s to 1950s somewhere in the

[9:53] state. I know this house was constructed. and that'll help narrow

[9:56] down your searches and make it easier to go through the different listings.

[10:01] So, in conclusion, I mentioned I have some of those databases that you might

[10:06] be able to find. So, this up on the top right is one of those cataloges, just a

[10:09] cover page of what a lot of them looked like. And then a couple databases that

[10:14] are very useful. The building technology heritage library I've had the most

[10:17] success with that's stored on the internet archive. It's all completely

[10:20] digitized. Smithsonian Libraries and the Library of Congress are both partially

[10:25] digitized, but they both have decent sets of cataloges and things. Uh,

[10:29] usually it'll be called something like a trade literature collection, something

[10:32] with that name. The um AIC wiki up there can be very helpful for giving summaries

[10:38] of things like different types of nails and less specific things. They might not

[10:42] have cataloges, but they have good summaries of how things were constructed

[10:45] and where those things were used. And that's really all I've got for

[10:50] today. Any questions? >> Just a quick little research trick.

[10:56] » How long did it take you to find those knobs and hinges?

[11:00] » This one? Probably half an hour to 45 minutes, but

[11:06] I've gotten really quick at flipping through cataloges. When you first start

[11:11] out, it takes a little bit longer to be like, "That's not it. That's not it.

[11:14] That's not it." I'm now where I can sort of pick out. For this one, I was like,

[11:17] "There's a triangle and there's a half circle." And I just kept going until I

[11:20] found a triangle and a half circle and that makes it a little faster. So,

[11:24] another good trick. >> Cool. Thank you.

[11:29] » Cool. >> Thank you.

[11:30] » And I had a sweets catalog when I started architecture, [laughter] but

[11:34] they're all gone now. There were It was 14 volumes of stuff. So, but

[11:40] » that's the big thing. It's sometimes you spend I was lucky and I clicked on a

[11:44] good catalog for this guy like I think my second try because sometimes you go

[11:48] through all 14 volumes it took >> exactly

[11:51] » okay [clears throat]

[11:54] » thank you >> so interesting to have those resources

[11:57] available to you just sitting you know at your desk you know and to your point

[12:02] you know you used to have these physical >> physical cataloges and

[12:06] » now you can figure things out pretty quickly not using AI though to your

[12:09] point yeah >> I have a lot of physical builder

[12:12] cataloges and things too that I've just gotten from people because they're going

[12:15] to throw them out and I don't like to see that happen.

[12:17] » Yeah. >> But it's really cool and good to know

[12:20] that these digital copies are so available to us cuz

[12:23] » Oh, yeah. >> It's such a nice resource.

[12:25] » It is

[12:29] » very good. >> Okay. Uh next is uh concept reviews

[12:35] 28 South Fifth Street. >> Okay. So, we're looking at 28 South

[12:40] Fifth Street. Like Paul said, this is a concept review. It actually hasn't been

[12:44] purchased yet. So, a lot of this is sort of getting an idea of what would work

[12:48] with the potential purchasers uh vision versus what the HBC really is looking

[12:55] for and if that would be a successful, you know, collaboration.

[13:01] So, we're over here on sort of the westish middle section of the district,

[13:09] right off of Third Street, pretty close to the commercial area.

[13:13] And just a quick history on the property. So, it was originally a

[13:17] residential property. It was constructed in 1890 for the Henry Child Hawkins

[13:21] family, but somewhere between 1923 and 1930, we know from Sanborn Fire

[13:26] Insurance maps that a rear porch was added on there. And in 1957, we know a

[13:30] garage was constructed from newspaper records. In 1968, Betty Johnston got a

[13:37] permit for new porches and walks. That's also from newspaper records. And in

[13:41] 1994, we know there was a fire in the attic when it [clears throat] was owned

[13:45] by Lozen, who at the time was more of a local politician. And you can see sort

[13:50] of the 1903 newspaper excerpt that the Henry Charles Hawkins family lived there

[13:57] for a time, but after uh Henry Hawkins passed, it was rented out for some time

[14:01] by his wife and then remained residential basically until uh the I

[14:07] believe the 80s around 80s and 90s.

[14:14] And then just some permanent history that we do have on file. In 1994 there

[14:18] was that fire so repair for that and a fence. 99 the property was re-roofed and

[14:23] there were some signs more signs in 2000. 2006 new walk and steps another

[14:28] re-roofing project in 2012 and more signs in 2014 and 2023. So it's really

[14:34] been a commercial property pretty regularly used as such since

[14:39] then. and we're looking at potentially turning

[14:43] it into an inn or a bed and breakfast style property. There's a couple

[14:48] locations where work might be performed that would really undergo HPC review.

[14:52] Excuse me. [clears throat] Um, one of those is the front porch

[14:56] where we know from Sanborn Fire Insurance maps that a front porch

[15:00] existed once and no longer does. Additionally, down on the south kind of

[15:05] facade there, looking at putting that porch back on too that we know from

[15:09] Sandborn environ maps existed and might have been enclosed at one point. Just

[15:13] looking at sort of the footprint of the property. And then also looking at uh

[15:17] creating an addition between the garage and the house that's existing in order

[15:22] to make that garage into an additional space for the inn for people to stay in.

[15:26] And then also sort of a welcoming area into the inn, sort of an atrium space.

[15:32] So, I included a bunch of existing conditions photos because I think

[15:35] that'll be a big part of the discussion today is just looking at what might be

[15:40] possible on the facades that are there. So, you can see sort of in this

[15:44] straighton photo where the porch might have existed. Also, based on the

[15:48] footprint, it's very possible that that uh section on the side there that would

[15:52] be the north facade used to be porch and was enclosed. Obviously, since the house

[15:57] hasn't been purchased yet, not total investigation hasn't been done to

[16:00] actually what's going on physically inside there. So, just looking at the

[16:03] outside and the maps and the things that we do have, that's probably a good

[16:07] guess. And then just some more photos. So, I

[16:12] it's been raining a lot. Wasn't able to get to the um house to take good non-

[16:18] rainy pictures myself. These were actually sourced from the 2016 survey.

[16:21] I'm not sure why I put 1999. And then those previous photos are from the real

[16:25] estate listing that's online. And you can kind of see the north side

[16:29] of the property, which is out of view from the street, but it's good to see to

[16:32] get an idea of everything. And then more of those side views and where it might

[16:37] connect to the garage there. And then we've had some sort of very

[16:43] conceptual images submitted so far. I would note that this porch wraps further

[16:48] than that historic porch did. I included those sandborn maps up there for your uh

[16:54] sort of comparison at the same time. A lot of these changes that are sort of

[16:58] happening on this image wouldn't probably happen on the main properties.

[17:02] So, just really focusing on the characters of the porches and the

[17:06] characters of that style of potential addition uh and how that might carry

[17:11] over into the rear as well. And additionally, one of the other

[17:16] things that the potential owner is looking at is replacing a lot of the

[17:20] windows because other than the two attic windows, they're all fixed right now.

[17:24] Um, and the potential owner applicant is looking at, you know, hopefully having

[17:31] functioning windows. So, what that might take for discussion as well. And I

[17:37] believe, yep, that's really all we've got. So Sue, if you want to come up for

[17:41] discussion [cough] [clears throat]

[17:43] and just introduce yourself for the record and then we can

[17:46] » My name is Sagato.

[17:53] » I can go to whichever slide we prefer. If you want to give a little summary of

[17:59] what you're looking at too, that might be useful. So, I am hoping to create um

[18:04] a small inn um five suites and have it also be, you know, an area, a

[18:13] destination place that is welcoming, do tours, do events, and yeah, just have it

[18:21] be more like a a little quaint little inn for the town. Mhm.

[18:29] » So when you say the windows are fixed, just out of curiosity, it does it mean

[18:34] what do you mean? Is it fixed glass? Is it a window that's not operating

[18:38] operable? Is it >> Yeah. So if you can you can kind of see

[18:42] it in these pictures, but it's confusing because there's shutters, but they're

[18:45] all single pane glass basically fixed picture windows right now.

[18:50] » Ah, they are

[18:52] » other than you can see up top on that attic,

[18:54] » right? But those are functioning, >> right?

[18:56] » They've got that >> there are some double hungs on

[19:00] » all the way on the second and third floor.

[19:02] » Yeah. [clears throat] But the first floor are all

[19:10] if they've already been replaced, which it sounds like they probably have,

[19:17] I don't think the windows that are that have already been replaced would not be

[19:22] a problem to replace them. They go back to an operable window. Mhm.

[19:28] » I think >> Yeah, because you're saying that they

[19:31] were probably would have been operable in the first place and then someone

[19:33] » It depends on the location and whether they're original or not, I guess.

[19:39] » I mean, I guess maybe it's a question for you, Emily. The house was built in

[19:43] 1890. Is that correct? I mean, were they even

[19:48] capable of making sheets of glass for windows that size at that time?

[19:54] » It would have been very expensive. So really the main place that they would

[19:58] have been even considering a picture window might have been in that little

[20:03] bump out there that um on the bottom left.

[20:09] But realistically a lot of them would have been functioning more because they

[20:13] would not have had a lot of other good climate control solutions and it might

[20:18] not have been as hot as it gets today but it still would have gotten pretty

[20:22] hot and they would have wanted to be able to open their windows. So typically

[20:26] would you think they'd be double hung with would they have typically been one

[20:31] over one or you know four over one or would there be muttons typically in the

[20:38] windows like that at that time? >> Um there could have been there could

[20:42] have not been it. A lot of that depended on what the owner could afford and what

[20:46] the owner kind of preferred when they were constructing it. I would say almost

[20:50] for sure they would have been double hung for sure for um that specific

[20:55] detail. The muttons might [clears throat and cough]

[20:58] take a little bit more research to prove without putting in sort of

[21:01] unsubstantiated uh details to the property. We are

[21:06] looking at getting in contact with the history museum I believe um to get some

[21:10] historic photographs as well which might be able to show some of those details

[21:14] but yeah double hung would be very very likely especially like on that second

[21:18] floor front facade there would have been no reason to spend all that money to get

[21:23] picture windows that you couldn't even breathe out of during the summertime.

[21:27] » Right. Well, I'm assuming since it's been a business since 1994 at least,

[21:30] it's probably been replaced. And that's what they, like you said, probably the

[21:34] cheapest option they probably put around there for the business cuz they weren't

[21:38] going to open up windows. >> That's kind of the thought that I've

[21:40] been having. And then if the property uh if you did end up going through and

[21:44] purchasing the property, really the easiest way to do that would be just for

[21:47] me to go visit, and we've talked about this, and look at all the windows and

[21:50] photograph them and >> Yeah.

[21:52] » see what I can see. >> Yeah. And if you were to replace them,

[21:56] part of what we would look for is a window survey to see when they were

[22:00] built, what a good idea when they were built and, you know, if they were, you

[22:06] know, if they're operable or what shape they're in, too. So,

[22:10] » absolutely. Um, and then with that, [clears throat] because if you do have I

[22:15] mean I know that if if any of the existing ones in the back are double

[22:21] hungs that are that are existing and original windows, they're probably would

[22:28] almost be better to have those re refurbished than it would be to have

[22:33] them replaced because if you if you talk to window people um that refurbish

[22:40] windows. Even replacing windows,

[22:45] you don't get the quality of window that you would have got in the 1880s,

[22:50] especially for a a house of this scale and size.

[22:54] » Yeah. >> So, um but it could be that somebody

[22:58] came through and changed them all out, too.

[23:01] » Yeah. >> So,

[23:02] » I I've I've been in the home um three times. I I did not see any double hungs,

[23:09] but maybe I missed the back porch, the ones that are above the back porch.

[23:14] » Yeah, >> now that I'm trying to remember. Um, but

[23:19] almost every window that I looked at and I thought I went through there was a

[23:23] fixed glass. So, yeah, >> I'm I'm happy to replace them. I want to

[23:28] keep the um historical integrity and and make sure that it looks um as it should.

[23:36] You know, definitely. >> And I guess what I was just trying to

[23:39] get at was probably double hungs were originally on the house. And if there's

[23:44] no photographic evidence that they were one over one or two over two or you know

[23:51] there were muttons >> you know

[23:55] » what do we think about you know if if you wanted to include you know

[23:59] » muttons >> muttons would would that be acceptable?

[24:03] » Yeah. And I I think we'd probably rely on any

[24:08] photograph, but if there wasn't any if there wasn't any, it would really be I

[24:13] think it'd be probably up to you about what

[24:17] what you feel is a I guess >> period appropriateness. Yeah,

[24:22] » period. There might be more than one answer to that. It sounds

[24:25] » and there could be. Yeah, especially if there's no evidence, photographic

[24:29] evidence. It's like, okay, probably something like, you know, 12 over 12 is

[24:34] not, you know, is not appropriate, but you know, something else,

[24:39] » something that would have harmony with the home. Yeah.

[24:41] » Yeah. And and you could get clues maybe from homes of similar age

[24:47] » in the neighborhood and size. Yeah. >> Absolutely. because uh

[24:52] yeah, I know that I know that the house that I'm in right now doesn't have any

[24:58] buttons in it at all. And it the windows are from 1888

[25:03] or 1890. So >> pretty close.

[25:06] » Yeah. >> But

[25:08] » but they're double hung, right? >> They are double hung and they do not

[25:12] function, but [laughter] >> but we're working on that. Um but yeah,

[25:17] I think that Yeah. Now, when it comes to the porch, I guess again it it would

[25:22] [clears throat] be nice to see more uh historic

[25:27] » Yeah. >> Uh if there were any historic

[25:29] photographs and if this is a this is a prominent house in Geneva, I think that

[25:35] you probably will be able to find something to tell you what what's going

[25:40] on there. Um >> yeah, I hope I find some. I definitely

[25:46] I'm going to be searching for them. Yeah, I I think the history center would

[25:49] be able to help you with that. >> I'm not sure that the uh the images that

[25:54] you put together are, >> you know, are are entirely appropriate

[26:02] without having any visual. I mean, I don't think they'd be wrapound porches,

[26:08] but again, without any uh visual evidence, it it would be tough. Just

[26:16] based on the sandborns, I think I'd be reluctant to approve a wrap around I

[26:20] mean a wrap around that one corner. >> Yes.

[26:23] » Exactly. >> And on the and on the smaller one on

[26:29] » um >> the

[26:30] » James Street there. >> Yeah.

[26:33] » That doesn't need to be wrapped around. That would just be opened up, I would

[26:36] say. >> Yeah.

[26:37] » Right. >> And I think

[26:39] » that's just a small little porch off the side.

[26:41] » And I think there's a clue. There's a the house right to the north of there

[26:45] has a similar um wrap around to that sandborn map

[26:50] where it's just you know half of the front and it wraps around to one side.

[26:54] So >> you know maybe some clue like that um

[26:58] you know you might take a clue from that house or others that have a similar

[27:04] » porch to what we see on the sandborn maps.

[27:10] » Yeah. Once I am able to I think um

[27:17] if I put an offer in, if I if I am able to get this building, then I I already

[27:22] had an architect look at it with me once. Um but we haven't done any work on

[27:27] it yet. So I would keep it to just what's on the map and do it like from

[27:33] the front door onto the north side. Um the wraparound there. But um the I did

[27:41] have a question about the front like the full width of the front there under the

[27:45] windows. There's like a gabled end return that's just sticking out like

[27:51] that. So do we hopefully we can find from maybe some photos if there was

[27:57] something under those windows that went across the whole front. I don't know.

[28:02] Yeah, I think is it what what's do you know what the

[28:07] sighting is on that right now?

[28:12] » It's uh aluminum. >> I think it's aluminum. I want

[28:15] » I don't think it's vinyl. >> I don't think it's wood right now,

[28:18] » but there could be wood underneath it. I'd be

[28:20] » there. Yeah. And and and the other thing that that would tell you whether the

[28:26] extent of the porch might help you is if you if you do a little destructive to to

[28:33] see what's under that aluminum because there might be

[28:36] » Okay. >> ghosts of what was back there.

[28:39] » Okay. >> Yeah.

[28:40] » And investigate on the back side of the house.

[28:42] » Yes. Exactly. >> Yeah. Yeah.

[28:45] And that's something I can walk you through sort of which patches might be

[28:49] useful to take off and was scale because that's not something where you would be

[28:53] able to take off everything all at once without a permit or anything. But a

[28:57] little bit of investigative demolition >> we do allow just to see what we've got

[29:02] going on under there. >> Okay.

[29:04] » Before you go through with everything else,

[29:07] » right? >> Yeah. You don't want to commit to that.

[29:10] » Yeah, I [laughter] know. and and and once once it's all off it, you're kind

[29:15] of pige holding which way you have to go back.

[29:20] » So, >> and we've had that discussion before.

[29:23] » We have we have someone has unearthed, you know, historic materials through a a

[29:30] demo process and then had to, you know, >> deal with those proceed with the drive

[29:37] down the road. So, just tread lightly. Um, the other thing is before you end up

[29:41] um, you know, signing a a contract with or enlisting the architect to do any

[29:46] work, you might want to have the architect check in with Emily so that

[29:50] they're not spending, you know, design hours on something that's maybe

[29:54] » not going to be relevant toward the cause.

[29:57] » Absolutely. >> Yeah. I mean, I think that

[30:01] um I think the connection with the garage and that sort of thing, I think

[30:08] that's something that you c we could probably

[30:12] we we do allow additions onto buildings. And I think the one thing that Emily can

[30:19] walk your architect through on how if they're not familiar with historic

[30:24] preservation, how you can marry the two buildings together so that the intent of

[30:32] our of lot we we want to see what the building originally be able to tell what

[30:38] the building originally looked like, right? And then [clears throat] the the

[30:41] addition is not so much a copy of what's there, but you can kind of see that

[30:46] there's a break between the two, the old and the new.

[30:50] » Okay. So, and uh I think there's some very successful

[30:57] uh I think it's Grahams 318, which is no longer Grahams 318 is a very successful

[31:04] version of that where they added on to the building and it didn't it you can

[31:09] still tell what the original building was.

[31:12] » Right. So, >> I think in addition on the back there,

[31:16] it to me might be a a tricky thing because you've got a pretty unique set

[31:22] of roof lines in the back there. >> Yeah.

[31:24] » That, >> you know, if you if you put a large

[31:28] twostory addition right smack up against there

[31:31] » that might be a little overwhelming and problematic. So, that that's just my

[31:36] opinion. But were you planning on tearing down that garage or building

[31:41] over top of it potentially or? >> Yeah. Uh, at first I was thinking of

[31:46] going, you know, on top of the garage that I think that when I met you, Emily,

[31:51] that was my thought. Um, but after looking at it again and really doing

[31:57] some more research and discussion about it, I think the garage would come down

[32:01] completely. there would be kind of a connector area between the existing

[32:08] structure and the addition and I don't know how high the addition would be but

[32:14] I it would have a second floor but um like a connector like similar to well

[32:21] not similar to but I know that past basket has like a connector

[32:26] building to it and I think um we're behind

[32:32] Um, Margaret Matson that is like another building behind there. I don't know if

[32:37] it has a connector, but even Dodson Place does like so it'll be saying just

[32:43] like a singlestory transition >> something transition and it could be a

[32:46] nice um vestibule entry guest you know entry which I think would be nice too.

[32:53] So, it would serve a couple purposes there and it would have um it would be

[32:58] very bright, very light is what I was envisioning and then the other building

[33:03] kind of trying to match that roof line which has all that, you know, asymmetry

[33:09] to it, all the different things happening. So

[33:13] » yeah, I think that might be a a a way to start looking at it, you know, as the

[33:18] addition separate, you know, maybe in that space where the existing garage is,

[33:22] but have it connected by one a one-story portico of some sort or whatever to the

[33:28] existing building so that you definitely get that separation between the addition

[33:33] and the old building. >> Yeah.

[33:35] » Um but it still potentially could serve your purposes,

[33:39] » right? >> Yeah. You know, there's like three

[33:41] levels of roof on that >> building and at least

[33:47] » there's many many levels. >> And I don't know that I would like, you

[33:52] know, go to the highest level, you know, that we see here on the front facade.

[33:57] » No. >> Um, that might be a little overwhelming

[34:00] for the neighborhood. >> I think so, too. Um,

[34:04] » yeah, but I I do think that and and I think your architect will find that

[34:09] there's there's I don't know whether the zoning still is that you take the area

[34:14] of if you slice the building at 20 foot and then everything if if you're in the

[34:21] if you have lower eaves and you're doing a story and a half, you actually can put

[34:26] a lot more square footage in per zoning because of that. because you can use

[34:32] that area under the not under the eaves but at the eaves to be able to um as

[34:39] floor space. So it's it you're really it it the and that would also help with not

[34:48] making it overwhelm the existing house I believe. So that that sort of thing and

[34:55] Emily knows about that. So she would let your complicated walk your architect

[35:01] [laughter] through. >> We kind of looked at that that that

[35:03] house on Ford Street recently with that large addition. Correct. Where

[35:08] » you know they maintained that smaller one on onetory kind of portico that went

[35:13] from the very small farmhouse type building to a larger addition. And I

[35:19] don't know if you were thinking about, you know, applying for the um state tax

[35:24] freeze. Um but they approved that type of um connection

[35:31] between an an older building and a new building. So

[35:34] » is that a for commercial? >> This would probably be more of a tax

[35:39] credit because it would technically be a commercial building, but I can also do

[35:43] that, too. >> Yeah.

[35:47] Okay. Yeah, the tax freeze is for residential

[35:50] and then credit is for commercial >> and it kind of balances itself out that

[35:57] way, right? >> That will, just so you know, if you are

[35:59] interested in that, that does kick in a higher level of review because the state

[36:03] gets involved and the state looks at both the interior and the exterior.

[36:07] » Okay. >> But that's totally something I can talk

[36:09] to you about if you're interested. >> I read through it, but it's a lot.

[36:12] » It's a lot and there's a lot going on other than that, too. So, totally one

[36:16] piece at a time. Yeah. And and [snorts] it if it was a commercial building

[36:20] inside, they might have been completely different than what it was originally.

[36:24] So >> there aren't any fireplaces and it it

[36:28] doesn't look like there's Yeah. In the inside there's

[36:32] » I didn't find anything historical, unfortunately.

[36:36] » Yeah. >> Yeah. So,

[36:38] » is there even a kitchen in there? >> No,

[36:42] no kitchen. There's a refrigerator off the back porch. [laughter]

[36:48] That's historic. >> Is it historic?

[36:50] » Yeah. >> Yeah. And I I I Well, and actually with

[36:55] with the new guidelines, September 1957, the two-car garage

[37:02] could be considered historic, but I'm not sure just looking

[37:07] at what it is right now that we would consider it historic.

[37:14] » Not very significant. or significant. So, yeah, that

[37:18] » contributing. >> I mean, you're almost thinking about

[37:22] it's kind of like a an ADU type of construction,

[37:25] » correct? >> For that addition that has been, you

[37:29] know, approved previously. So, >> I'm hoping the addition doesn't even

[37:33] come out as far as the garage is sitting currently.

[37:37] » So, because the garage almost um comes right to the property line.

[37:43] » Sure. So, and right to that tree behind it. So, it would be nice if it if there

[37:49] was like a space there and it didn't come all the way out that far. That

[37:53] would be almost too big for a building to be sitting on that corner with

[37:59] as a twotory going all the way to the back of the garage. I feel

[38:04] » Yeah.

[38:07] Well, >> in summary,

[38:09] » yes, in summary, I think uh we do look at those those samps just to kind of

[38:15] give us a hint as to what the old footprints are. We do try to stick to

[38:19] those things and and make sure that we're giving a nod to what's uh happened

[38:24] in the past, using historic photos as references. So, if we see something

[38:28] happening in there that, you know, was referenced to something historic, we

[38:32] it's nice to see maybe that uh brought back if it's not there today, like we

[38:37] were talking about the windows and the details can help give us those types of

[38:41] of insights. Um, seeing the original frame of the building and making sure

[38:47] that any addition or anything like that isn't overpowering what's happening. and

[38:52] it sounds like it won't, you know, it'll be set back enough and we'll still see

[38:55] the the original building and it'll still be the the primary focus. That's

[39:01] always important as well. So, I think that um as long as we do that and then,

[39:06] you know, we can work you can work with Emily in terms of materials and things

[39:09] like that to make sure that we're, you know, not um swapping out or um

[39:14] replacing things with materials that wouldn't be, you know, um in kind with

[39:19] what's already there. That's uh that's what we're looking for. So,

[39:22] » okay. >> Sound good?

[39:24] » Great. >> Sounds good.

[39:25] » Thank you. >> Do you have any other questions?

[39:27] » Not at this moment. >> I'll be back.

[39:30] » Well, good luck. >> Thank you so much.

[39:32] » It would be nice to have something that's of a little different use in that

[39:36] space, I think. >> Thank you.

[39:38] » Very good. Thank you. >> Thanks for coming in.

[39:40] » Thanks. >> Okay.

[39:44] » Move past the fifth street. >> We're gonna skip fifth street. Okay. The

[39:49] next U item on our agenda is 402 Campbell Street. It's review of building

[39:55] permit application. >> Okay. So, we are looking at 402

[40:00] Campbell, just a little bit south of where we just were. Quick history on the

[40:04] property. It was uh erected in 1856 as a house for Michael Jones/

[40:12] Jones depending on what period of time it was in the newspapers uh and when he

[40:18] sort of switched to Americanized Jones. In 1955 it was purchased by Frank W.

[40:24] Harding Jr. from that Jones family. So it remained in the Jones family for 99

[40:28] years which is pretty impressive. In 1957, the south and west wing additions

[40:32] were in constructed, including the staircase that we're looking at right

[40:36] now. And in between 2016 and 2018, the house was remodeled and topouses were

[40:41] added to the property. And during that time, there was a lot of discussion of

[40:46] different pieces of the house and the different wings and the staircase, which

[40:49] some of you might remember happening or some viewers at home might remember

[40:55] happening. Uh just a couple permit histories on

[40:59] this property. Other than that, in 2016 the windows were done and in 2023 it got

[41:05] a new roof. So like I said, we're looking at that staircase there, which

[41:09] isn't really in the footprint because it's a staircase, but I outlined

[41:13] generally where it is on this little plat. And here are some photos of the

[41:18] existing condition. So the proposal is really to replace the steel frame of the

[41:23] staircase, not that cast iron there. That's sort of a it goes by a lot of

[41:27] different names, but one of them the my favorite name for it is the twisty oak

[41:31] cast iron pattern. Um, and that's still sort of in production today actually.

[41:36] It's still a pretty popular cast iron attempt to be built. That all all of

[41:41] those elements would be taken down. The steel would be replaced and then the

[41:45] cast iron would be put back up. So anywhere where there's cast iron,

[41:49] there's sort of steel framing it and that's what would be replaced under this

[41:53] proposal. You can see, especially in the photos kind of underneath the stairs,

[41:57] and you have some of them online, too, if it's easier to look at it there. You

[42:00] can see a lot of the pitting happening in the existing frame.

[42:05] Um, but there's not really a lot of damage almost at all to the cast iron.

[42:09] So, that's all in good shape. It would not need to be really repaired in any

[42:13] way beyond being removed for that frame and then put right back on.

[42:18] And these stairs are especially interesting because you can see even on

[42:21] the risers they put cast iron in. They hit it everywhere they could. I think

[42:26] we've had past permit reviews where it was discussed

[42:30] that this was maybe one of those situations where it was really the the

[42:33] owner's style in the 50s when that addition was added on that the property

[42:38] owner was really into sort of this style. And it wasn't quite that it was

[42:41] of the period, but more that she got to do what she wanted to do to her house

[42:45] and that's what she wanted to do to her house. And now we have this very ornate

[42:50] cast iron stair in the district. very New Orleans like

[42:55] » very New Orleans like. Actually, one of the cataloges I found it in was uh New

[43:01] Orleans replicas of different cast iron pieces found out in New Orleans.

[43:08] So, these are just some more of the existing conditions photos what it sort

[43:10] of looks like from behind and then also a photo from the street that looks much

[43:15] grayer because I took it on a rainy day. And then this is just drawings of what

[43:21] that frame would be that would be being replaced. So we're looking at sort of

[43:24] the stringers and platforms and then also

[43:29] uh the footings and replacing the frames for the columns. And if you read your uh

[43:36] documents very very closely, you might see that sand blasting is on there as

[43:39] part of the estimate. As we know, sand blasting is not really approved by the

[43:42] Secretary of the Interior Standards because that's a pretty aggressive

[43:45] method. that sand blasting would not be on the existing historic materials. It

[43:50] would be on the replacement materials in order to basically rough it up so that a

[43:54] primer and a a coat of protection, excuse me, could be applied on site. Um,

[44:02] and it then after that is when the cast iron would be applied so they would not

[44:06] be touched by the sand blasting. Just pointing that out because anytime I see

[44:10] that, big red sirens go off in my head and I want to get ahead of it before

[44:15] they start going off in your head, too. >> Sand blasting is an aggressive word.

[44:20] » Yeah, even the word is like that's a crazy visual to have in your head. Um,

[44:26] and that's really the whole application. So, really replacing those frames and

[44:29] footings and then putting everything back. Is the second floor landing

[44:36] » being done also or are we just talking about the first landing?

[44:40] » Yeah, so that's a good question. So, um it would be kind of a three-phase

[44:44] project where it would first be the landing on

[44:48] the left, the landing on the right, and then it would go to the riers and all

[44:52] that up to the second floor in that set. And actually, we can have the applicant

[44:58] come up and explain that more if you want.

[45:02] introduce yourself. >> Yep. Good evening everybody. Chris

[45:05] Landis, uh owner of Valley Acupuncture and also

[45:08] 402 uh Campbell Street. We uh just purchased it this year from uh Bob

[45:13] Rasmusen who did the historic um renovation of this. Did a really

[45:16] phenomenal job. Him and his partner uh Rick Doll. Um you know, so we're happy

[45:21] to be here in Geneva. And all we're doing right now was trying to uh you

[45:25] know, just from a structural standpoint, maintain what we have. Um you can see

[45:28] those columns right there. Um they're actually subgrade. So those steel

[45:33] columns actually go below um the ground and obviously, you know, that's just

[45:38] primed for rust. And a couple of those are starting to rust out. We have some

[45:42] of the boards that are starting to pop up. The nails are popping up. So it's

[45:45] it's definitely past its point um to to be replaced. But amazingly, you know,

[45:50] all that ornamental steel is in really great shape. There's really no rusting

[45:55] um or ornamental rod iron. There's no rusting going on there. So from an

[45:58] aesthetic standpoint, it'll all stay the same. Um it'll just be the structural

[46:02] parts such as the stringers, you know, the step frames, things like that. And

[46:06] to your question, sir, um all that that second floor right there that stays the

[46:10] same with the exception of, you know, that stringer that connects in um that

[46:15] that gets replaced on that uh that, you know, second rise of stairs up there.

[46:19] And there's one little post that's rusted out and and it's not even there.

[46:23] So we're going to fix that. It's on the right hand side as you're facing the

[46:27] building. It's just like a little steel stainless steel post that we're going to

[46:30] weld on there. Just because it's missing, it looks weird. Um, but other

[46:33] than that, everything will, you know, be true to what you see right right now.

[46:39] Um, and uh, yeah, it we we like the looks of it. Even if it's not, you know,

[46:44] from the original building in 1847, it still looks kind of cool.

[46:49] » It's been there long enough that I think we'd probably struggle with like, you

[46:52] know, removing it and, you know, not having it there. Yeah, I know there

[46:57] there [clears throat] were people not of the of the preservation partners that

[47:00] thought it was inappropriate, but I it it does have character in my mind and I

[47:06] think that that something to be said about that. So yeah, I I don't see any

[47:13] issues with it because you're really replacing in kind

[47:16] » and take the important thing to me is that the uh u the u the railings and the

[47:24] the the >> cast iron stuff more than anything else.

[47:29] And I think you're you're answering that question. So

[47:33] » are are the stair treads wood or what are they?

[47:37] » They're they're uh Yeah. So the actual like I guess in terms of like the the

[47:41] steps themselves the they're just like a wood they're just they're just wood

[47:45] decking. I don't know. I guess they're missing the correct term there, but it's

[47:48] just you know like typical wood decking steps that you step on. Then frames

[47:52] themselves are are steel. >> So are you replacing the wood?

[47:57] » The the wood we're actually going to it's not in terrible shape. We're going

[48:00] to pop it off, put a couple coats of paint on there and just just nail them

[48:04] back on. I mean screw them back on there. Um, we might replace a couple of

[48:08] those, uh, those pieces of of of wood that, you know, have a little bit of

[48:12] water logged on there. They're starting to like bend or warp a little bit when

[48:15] there's a lot of humidity. Um, but for the most part, they're they're they're

[48:18] fine. Um, I guess we could use, you know, down the line and we'd have to get

[48:22] approval for that is, you know, what is it? Tyveback or what is it?

[48:25] » TX. >> TX. Thank you. Tracks. Yeah. A little

[48:27] bit more costly, right? But it it has a longer duration to it. Then we also have

[48:31] to be mindful of uh you know just because the residents up on the second

[48:35] floor do come up and down from there. Um just having something that they can

[48:40] actually grip onto. The nice thing about wood uh you can get you know from

[48:44] Sherman Williams you can get like you know matching it obviously to the

[48:47] existing paint but you can get something with a little bit of coarseness to it to

[48:49] put those granulars so you can actually and and wood just looks nicer sometimes.

[48:54] So yeah, >> I noticed that there was some curly

[48:58] maple missing from some of the risers for the steps like

[49:04] » Yep. Yeah. >> Are are you going to replace that or are

[49:07] you leaving that or >> Well, we're going to do is actually when

[49:10] we when they take off and then put back on, we're going to from the bottom,

[49:14] we're going to we're going to put it back from the bottom so it doesn't look

[49:17] as awkward because right now when we bought the building, they're missing a

[49:21] couple up on top. And I I agree it looks kind of awkward where there's like a

[49:24] part of it missing. Um but yeah, it's nowhere to be found. You know, it's not

[49:28] on the property. So, we're just going to take some from the bottom and put them

[49:32] up on the the top when we replace, you know, when we take it off and then put

[49:35] it back on. That way, there's uniformness, you know, with it all.

[49:39] » So, there'll be missing pieces on the bottom.

[49:42] » Yeah, exactly. Yeah. On the bottom, you won't even notice it just because I

[49:45] think there's only two missing. I think there's those two right there. Other

[49:49] than that, they're they're all there. So it'll just be a couple that are missing

[49:51] at that point. You can find that in a catalog somewhere.

[49:55] » I actually that's the one part because I did look I started finding all the

[49:58] railings and everything. I was like, "Oh my god."

[50:00] » Yeah, >> those are so easy. But those are the one

[50:02] things that are way less easy to find those pieces on the risers than the rest

[50:05] of it. >> What are they called? What is that? What

[50:08] is that? >> Yeah. I don't

[50:09] » There's a term for that. >> I would like if I was describing it and

[50:14] putting it in a nomination, I would like a

[50:17] » Yeah. decorative hanging

[50:21] » riser. I mean, it's a very riser unique element.

[50:25] » It's actually the riser. So, it's a find that outative riser. I'm looking. I'm

[50:31] looking. >> It probably gets kicked out over time,

[50:34] you know. >> That's very cool.

[50:36] » Yeah. >> So, one other thing and I'll be done.

[50:39] » Um, the 2016 photograph.

[50:43] » Yes. >> Um, there's curly maple on those.

[50:48] um posts that hold up the second floor. Is

[50:52] are is that missing? I mean, I know it's So, the two posts on

[50:57] the each side. >> Oh,

[51:00] » wooden. I I I'm assuming they're wooden posts.

[51:04] » Yeah, that the one that that's true to existing right now. I'm not sure if

[51:09] there was if there was some ornamental steel that was uh or rot iron that was

[51:15] curly maple in nature. Um, yeah, we don't see any. That's when they did that

[51:20] renovation 2018, they must have um taken it out. I don't know. At some point,

[51:25] it's but it's it's not there anymore. >> Okay.

[51:28] » Yeah. >> Didn't know if it was like in the garage

[51:31] somewhere or something. >> Well, we do, to your point, we do have

[51:33] some some old and I'm not sure where it comes where it where it came from, but

[51:38] we do have some some pieces, you know, still in the the shed. There's a shed

[51:42] out back. And uh at some point, you know, we'll plan to, you know, I'll be

[51:47] back here to, you know, the windows are like shot out, you know, it's like one

[51:51] of these things you like try to do it in steps. Sure. You know, so it's been for

[51:54] us like drainage has been a big thing this year just, you know, because it was

[51:57] like this old corrugated um

[52:01] » um what the corrugated pipe, you know, being that

[52:04] » that black stuff that goes down. We put like nice PVC so it actually like flows

[52:08] where it's supposed to flow. But and this is like a big project for us right

[52:12] now that we're going to do, but slowly pieces. But yeah, to your point, I think

[52:15] there is some old, you know, that that ro maybe that that's what it's from. And

[52:19] in the shed >> Yeah. I mean, it's it basically I think

[52:21] was the the ornamental stuff on the second floor that goes from the from the

[52:26] deck to the roof. That that was continued from the deck down to the

[52:30] ground. >> Okay.

[52:32] » I think there's photos of that. >> Yep.

[52:34] » It basically exactly matched. And there's the packets over there. You

[52:39] can grab >> if you ever need a copy.

[52:42] » Oh, that's good. Um, and I can send you digital copies,

[52:46] too, that you Thank you.

[52:51] » Yeah, you just get the flavor of it on the 2016 picture. There's just a little

[52:55] bit of >> Yeah.

[53:03] » Oh, I see what you're talking about. Yep. Um, that very well could be some of

[53:09] the stuff that we have in our uh our shed. Um,

[53:13] » or the seller. >> Looks What's that?

[53:15] » Or the seller. >> Yeah.

[53:18] » Yeah. I just bring it up. I mean, I'm not asking you to do that. I just was

[53:22] curious if if you had thoughts of doing that potentially in the future if it was

[53:26] still available. >> We're definitely not getting getting rid

[53:28] of it. I saw it there and I was like, we could use it at some point if some of

[53:31] this ever rusts out. We're trying to replace it in kind. Um but uh but yeah,

[53:36] that's exactly probably the pieces that you're speaking to. Um are those are

[53:41] those right there? And like I said, all the ornamental I'm not sure. It's just

[53:45] it's upheld really well. Probably because it doesn't get exposed to too

[53:48] much salt. And that's our plan when we do this. It's just to keep, you know, a

[53:52] better eye on um once we put that zinc epoxy primer on there and, you know, the

[53:56] polyurethane intermediate top coats just stay up with that every couple years

[54:01] because it does take a beating with all the salt. make sure that the tenants are

[54:04] safe. >> Yes.

[54:07] » Well, I don't see any any other questions or comments. No.

[54:12] » If if not, can I get a motion to approve?

[54:16] » Move to approve the stair rehabilitation at 402 Campbell Street.

[54:22] » Second. >> Zelmer.

[54:25] » I. >> Tolbler.

[54:27] » I. >> McManis.

[54:28] » I. >> Phillips.

[54:29] » I. Okay. >> Your motion passes. Thank you very much.

[54:32] » All right. Thanks. Yeah, it's been a joy having experience it.

[54:35] » Yeah. >> Thanks for coming in.

[54:37] » Thank you. >> So, I'll send you an email tomorrow with

[54:41] this review and then building will continue to finish up the rest of the

[54:44] review so that you can pick up your per permit soon.

[54:47] » Oh, great on. Do I need to uh reach out to building at all or just naturally

[54:50] just >> N forward it on. We try to keep it

[54:53] smooth for you guys. >> All right. Thank you.

[54:54] » Great. >> Have a good night.

[54:55] » Thank you. >> I do love that house. That

[54:59] » Yeah, that thing's awesome. >> Yeah. Yeah, we uh when we went there

[55:04] with uh with Bob, we leased it at first. Um and I worked with Calamos. I helped

[55:08] out with their whole real estate portfolio at Citygate Center. And uh I

[55:12] was going in with my wife, we just took over the business, made it more of a

[55:15] holistic center. And when we got there, we were like, man, we can't imagine it

[55:18] like the business anywhere else, you know, just because it has so much

[55:21] character there. And people, you know, from all around the Tri Cities used to

[55:24] go there and they're just like you feel like you can actually heal once you walk

[55:27] into the building. just it those uh those buildings just there's a presence

[55:31] there. That's awesome to have that kind of use in that building.

[55:34] » Exactly. >> Yeah.

[55:35] » And that rot iron steer >> that's Yeah, that thing is

[55:41] great. >> Yeah, they they uh Yeah, they've got

[55:44] they've got their fair share because I forget what the insurance company was,

[55:47] but it was like the largest >> I think it was a cattleman's insurance.

[55:49] » Yeah, it was it was the largest one east of Mississippi. They insured the most

[55:53] cattle. Yeah. It was wild. So yeah, it's fun working with Bob and Rick. They're

[55:57] really good people. >> Great.

[56:00] » Thank you very much. Thanks. >> Okay,

[56:05] now that our public has left, [laughter] >> secretar's report.

[56:11] » All right, kind of not a lot of going on, but also kind of a lot going on. So,

[56:15] I'll get real quick. Uh, building permit update. Only three cases

[56:18] administratively approved this month. Uh for those of you keeping an eye on

[56:22] what's going on with the comprehensive plan sort of build out that we've been

[56:26] doing, we're expecting an existing conditions report to be presented

[56:30] sometime in September and that'll be in front of council and PCC. Um currently

[56:36] it's being edited and going through several layers of edits. The next HPC

[56:40] meeting is September 15th. So the materials for that will be September

[56:44] 1st. I already have two projects that you all can expect to see that. So those

[56:48] are in progress. And then this is just something that's happening nationally

[56:52] that I want to make sure the commission is aware of and anyone sort of

[56:56] interested in preservation in the community is aware of. Um these two QR

[57:00] codes will take you both to a couple different resource pages on what's going

[57:05] on. Section 106 is basically the part of the national register the n national

[57:12] historic preservation act which keeps an eye on regulation of properties that are

[57:18] federally owned or affected by federal money or regulation. So that's the

[57:22] review that goes on anytime anything um involving federal money really gets

[57:29] involved on historic properties. So there is a proposed several proposed

[57:35] changes to section 106 right now that are being reviewed at several layers

[57:39] that's not officially open for public comment yet, but you can comment uh talk

[57:44] to your congress people and governors and not sure people about it right now.

[57:48] These both of these websites that they're linked will announce when the

[57:51] public comment officially opens. If you are interested in making a public

[57:54] comment, anyone is welcome to. That's how the democratic process works, I

[57:59] guess you could say. Um the major changes that are important for us to be

[58:04] aware of as a commission and as a local government are and as a a CLG

[58:10] is that the proposed changes will really restructure the consultation process. So

[58:16] agencies would have more of the power over that consultation process rather

[58:20] than it being what it is now which is led more separately from the agencies

[58:24] with very set people involved. the agencies would really have the choice

[58:28] over who would they would be getting involved in the timing of that process.

[58:32] So right now as cogs we have the right to comment on anything happening within

[58:36] our bounds and they're also required to look at what sort of citizens have to

[58:41] say and different preservation organizations locally have to say. They

[58:45] would have a lot more of a choice were this to be approved over who they would

[58:49] be speaking with and that would all happen at the end of the process. they

[58:53] would circulate a report rather than gathering comments throughout the

[58:56] process and having it be more sort of a discussion.

[59:01] Um, also good to just know about with these differences is that it would

[59:05] reduce review requirements in general. So, it's really reducing review to uh

[59:13] much smaller spaces. They're saying compact areas basically. So, cultural

[59:19] landscapes, which I've talked about in meetings before, really would lose a lot

[59:23] of their review because they're a larger area. It's specifically looking now at

[59:27] areas that have been like specifically constructed. I don't know the exact

[59:30] wording, but specifically constructed historically by humans. So those

[59:34] landscapes and areas where it might have be, you know, sacred spaces for Native

[59:38] American land, not totally touched by human hands, but still very historic,

[59:44] would undergo a very different level of review and essentially a lower level of

[59:47] review. And they're also looking at lowering review for anything outside of

[59:52] direct action. So that includes things like view sheds would be considered much

[59:56] less. Uh effects on sound would be considered much less, things like that.

[1:00:00] things that are expected to happen a long time in the future might be

[1:00:04] considered a lot less than things that are more direct like for example a

[1:00:07] window replacement. So like if we were looking at a window replacement under

[1:00:11] section 106 the changes would be this window's getting replaced where

[1:00:15] currently we look at this windows getting replaced and in 50 years that's

[1:00:19] what that might mean. So all of those are really just details to be aware of

[1:00:24] under these changes. Like I said it's undergoing a review process. This

[1:00:28] National Trust QR code up there has a lot a lot of information and a lot of

[1:00:32] links to other websites that are explainers. They've been doing webinars

[1:00:36] about every two weeks on it that are free. You can attend. The NAPSY National

[1:00:41] for Preservation Commissions has just started putting their work out on it.

[1:00:44] They're also doing a webinar in the next few weeks. You all have actually a

[1:00:49] printed out copy of what that QR code goes to in your documents so that it's

[1:00:54] easier to access. and they're really giving summaries based on how that

[1:00:58] affects the local commissions, which will be more helpful for your

[1:01:01] understanding of what's going on. We don't have a lot a lot of section 106

[1:01:05] reviews in town, but 302 North River is an example of one that did undergo

[1:01:09] section 106 review and that did end up having some requirements put in place

[1:01:14] due to that review, including that the one house that's left was preserved as

[1:01:19] part of that section 106 review. And a lot of artifacts and things like that

[1:01:22] are preserved in our plan to be integrated into the new construction

[1:01:26] there. And that was all part of that review process. So, just to be aware,

[1:01:32] um, just to be able to do any research that you want to do on it. Like I said,

[1:01:38] comments are not open yet officially for the actual edits, but you can reach out

[1:01:43] to people now if you want and then to be aware later, the city does plan on

[1:01:48] putting up a comment when the time comes.

[1:01:52] » How does that affect the the state and >> Illinois Shipo? Are they being cut out

[1:01:57] of a lot of things or >> Yes. And we expect a lot of confusion in

[1:02:05] general if it was to happen. Um just because it's a major change to something

[1:02:11] that's been happening since the 60s. So a lot of that would be not only would

[1:02:16] the state have sort of a different level of review than they're accustomed to,

[1:02:21] but also just getting used to those changes. I would expect that uh there

[1:02:25] would be some slowing down of certain things, not due to any fault of anyone

[1:02:30] in particular, but just getting used to things would take a minute for other

[1:02:34] reviews to happen as well as all of that was happening and processing through the

[1:02:40] Shipo. The state historic preservation office is has some federal funding and

[1:02:44] then also has some state funding. And in Illinois, we're really lucky that we've

[1:02:48] been able to keep a lot of our state funding through the different changes

[1:02:51] that have been happening with historic preservation recently. Um, so they're

[1:02:56] able to run a little bit more efficiently than some other states. Um,

[1:02:59] but I would expect to see a little bit of slowing as things changed over and

[1:03:07] new processes were kind of put into place, if that makes sense.

[1:03:10] » Do people expect lawsuits to be filed to prevent this? the National Trust uh page

[1:03:18] actually describes some of the lawsuits that are sort of

[1:03:22] being planned if it were to go into place. And there are a few other sort of

[1:03:29] national organizations that are less philanthropic and more based on um sort

[1:03:35] of encouraging preservation. So that that would really be involved in that

[1:03:39] that have stronger legal teams. There are similar organizations to the ones

[1:03:43] that are currently working on projects like the uh projects at the White House,

[1:03:50] » the demo of the ballroom kind of thing. Yeah.

[1:03:53] » Gotcha. >> And um things like the the arch and that

[1:03:59] type of >> the OB.

[1:04:03] » All right. I have one more comment on any of that at this point.

[1:04:06] » Just just to be aware, I've been keeping an eye on it. Um, and I will continue to

[1:04:11] keep an eye on it and if anything gets updated that really directly affects us

[1:04:15] here, I'll make sure everyone knows. >> Great. Thank you very much.

[1:04:19] » That's all I've got. >> Great. Um, new business. Any questions

[1:04:24] from the commission? >> Nope.

[1:04:29] » If not, um, I get motion to adjourn. I'll make motion to adjurnn.

[1:04:40] » Second. >> All in favor? I.

[1:04:42] » Anyone oppose? No.

[1:04:46] [music]

Historic Preservation Commission Meeting Aug. 18, 2026

Transcript