[0:01] All right. Good afternoon. This is the September 10th meeting of the Fire and

[0:06] Rescue Planning Committee. And uh what we I've been trying to do is first of

[0:11] all take up the minutes from the last meeting. If everybody's had a chance to

[0:15] read them and have any questions on the minutes

[0:20] or are we good to Oh, good. Somebody can make a motion to adopt the minutes.

[0:27] Nelson moves. We can come wrestle over who seconds it

[0:32] or we can call it Chief Mercier. Chief Mercier seconds it. All in favor?

[0:36] » I. >> Any opposed? Thank you.

[0:38] » I I did make one change. I spelled the name wrong.

[0:42] » Oh. Oh yeah. >> Nons substantive.

[0:46] » Um yeah, just in the future I guess the

[0:51] only thing is under next meeting details. It says adjourned at 2:35. I'm

[0:56] assuming that was the current meeting, not the next meeting at the end of the

[0:59] just the way it was formatted in previously.

[1:02] » We will adjourn at 2:35. >> I think it was uh

[1:10] » All right. Um so we have a guest that would like to speak to us and I think

[1:15] rather than beat around the bush, we just let this happen.

[1:24] » I'm sorry.

[1:27] I wanted to just

[1:32] reconve

[1:59] The reason is fire alarms calls.

[2:08] If you look statistically at what has happened, I'm just going to

[2:12] talk about harps because I don't have access to

[2:16] we've had 137 calls between January 1st and August 31st at harps neck. Of those

[2:24] 42 were dealt in it. 42. Now the vast majority of those are

[2:30] shortness of breath calls or loss of consciousness calls. They're not MI or

[2:36] heart attack calls or cardiac arrest calls. In fact, we had three cardiac

[2:41] arrest calls and three calls that were described as MIS, but they all turned

[2:45] out not to be MIS when we arrived on scene.

[2:48] So what's really happening is that in our calls we're not spending a lot of

[2:55] time at scene. We're getting there because the nature of these calls we are

[3:00] typically moving the patient fairly quickly towards the hospital. And the

[3:05] idea that somebody can come from OBI and render value to us is probably

[3:13] not supported by the facts. were gone by the time that somebody from OBI could

[3:20] come or there really is no need for somebody at OBI because it's not a

[3:25] cardiac arrest. It's not an MI. It's a more basic call that can be handled

[3:30] pretty easily. So what I'm telling you is I I

[3:36] understand the belief that these calls all involve cardiac arrests or MIS and

[3:43] that value can be provided by sending more bodies to the scene. But that's not

[3:48] what the data shows. The data shows that the vast majority of these calls are

[3:52] pretty routine calls where we're moving the patient fairly quickly from the

[3:56] scene and there is no opportunity for additional people to arrive on scene and

[4:01] render care. Now, at Harpsswell Neck, it may be a little different from your

[4:05] organizations, Ben. At Harpsville Neck, anytime we have a Delta Echo, we expect

[4:09] more than one EMT to arrive on scene. That's just our protocol. So, at harps

[4:14] neck for all of these Delta Echo calls except for a handful that were in the

[4:18] middle of the night. When you go through the the narratives on all these, we have

[4:23] two if not three EMTs are audiencing from Harpell Neck in addition to the Mid

[4:29] Coast paramedics, in addition to our drivers. So, we have a pretty full boat

[4:34] in often what is a small location working on a patient. We're talking

[4:39] about six people uh on these Delta Echo calls in a small scene. throwing in two

[4:44] more people doesn't really add value unless that

[4:49] they're a higher level of care that we can't provide which may exist in some

[4:53] situations but as I've told you the cardiac arrest and MI calls where you

[4:59] need that higher level care simply are the volume isn't there

[5:04] what I would suggest is

[5:09] Walgreens calling me because my prescription is

[5:13] Uh what I would suggest instead because I

[5:18] think you're going to have a lot of wasted diesel as well as putting the

[5:22] community at risk because you're moving your pdiums away from where they're

[5:26] stationed perhaps for no reason. That the better approach would be allow the

[5:32] Mid Coast paramedic or the EMT on scene. And by the way, I'm speaking only from

[5:37] Harpsville next standpoint. I can't tell you what's right for you guys, but from

[5:41] a HARP next standpoint, my recommendation would be let the mid

[5:46] coast paramedic or the EMT say we need assistance. If you guys want to move and

[5:52] stage at the town hall, that's up to you. If you want to stage at your

[5:57] station, that's up to you. But the reality is in 95% of the cases, we'll be

[6:05] gone by the time you get there or at such a low level call. she didn't need

[6:08] to come at all. So I would like you to rethink this idea and not have an

[6:15] automated response travel to the scene concept

[6:19] where the data doesn't support that that's really needed.

[6:24] » So can you're you're not distinguishing between delta and echoes.

[6:30] » Correct. I lumped them all together. >> Okay.

[6:32] » We have 40 42 delta and echo. So echoes have a very high prevalence of if it

[6:40] comes in with an echo, >> right?

[6:42] » That's either respiratory or cardiac arrest.

[6:44] » Understand? >> That's that's not a questionable call.

[6:47] » Understand? >> So

[6:48] » we have three echoes. >> Okay.

[6:50] » Interstate. >> We had a cardiac arrest at 10 Bailey.

[6:54] And by the way, I was on all three calls.

[6:57] » 10 Bailey. >> So you're the common denominator.

[6:59] » Yeah, I'm the one who's killing off people. uh Tim Bailey and we hit a Rosk

[7:03] in the middle of the night off point. Those were our three echo calls that we

[7:08] have had since the beginning of the year in the U 10 Bailey. It was during the

[7:14] day. No one. >> So So just so you're aware because

[7:19] this is being recorded. >> Okay. I'm not going to mention names.

[7:22] » I I wouldn't I wouldn't even addresses. >> Okay. All right. Three calls.

[7:28] um one south of our station, one somewhat to the northeast of the

[7:34] station, and then the call at the very tip of uh Ash Point.

[7:39] » Okay. >> Uh the one to the south of the station,

[7:43] there was no effort. I I can't tell you what day of the week it was. It was a

[7:47] weekday. Nobody from another department responded. I was there along with three

[7:52] other EMTs, two paramedics, two sheriffs, and three drivers. And Uh we

[7:58] worked that patient for 25 minutes. Uh she was flatlining the whole time. It

[8:03] was in an 8 by 12 foot room. If you guys had come, you would have been standing

[8:07] out on the porch or one of us would have had to leave. It just there wasn't

[8:11] space. That that patient frankly I was the first on scene. Um we had very

[8:18] limited opportunity with her. The rosque was a rasque. It was in the middle of

[8:23] the night. PDMS could not have responded because you got there's no at 11:00 p.m.

[8:28] at night, but we responded with three a uh three EMTs, a paramedic, and three

[8:34] drivers. And we rosted and then transported that patient. The third was

[8:38] interstate. uh interstate.

[8:43] It was a difficult call, but I want I wanted to keep in mind that we had four

[8:50] firefighters from Harold Neck, three EMTs from Harps neck and a paramedic

[8:57] from Mid Coast before an OBI firefighter or PDM arrived. And when the OBI

[9:04] prediums did arrive, I mean, you remember this

[9:10] And Frank, you were there. You remember how crowded that was?

[9:14] » I'm sorry. You remember how crowded that was?

[9:17] » Yeah. >> There wasn't a whole lot of room on

[9:19] that. We were working the patient in the camera.

[9:23] » So, that call was underway for a good 25

[9:28] minutes before an OBI.

[9:34] So, just understand that there are practical challenges with this idea of

[9:39] automatically sending a predium firefighter to a location

[9:45] that's far away maybe falsely flagged as a delta or echo. Uh

[9:52] and often we have space and time limitations that exist in these calls.

[9:56] So just be careful before assuming that this

[10:00] makes is going to change might. So,

[10:07] um, and I've been thinking about the Delta level calls because we've had a

[10:10] few that they've autoresponded on and I don't know.

[10:16] Of course, we haven't had enough of them to know if we're going to see positive,

[10:24] right? But as I was saying before the meeting

[10:27] started, my intent is was to ask our folks that if they get there and

[10:34] determine they don't need the staff to turn them around. But the problem is one

[10:38] of the things you identified clearly is response time.

[10:40] » Right. >> Right. And if if you're shortanded and

[10:45] you wait till you get to the scene on a on an echo level call before you call

[10:49] for help, you've just delayed that decision, whatever your initial response

[10:54] time was, right? So I'm not talking about the deltas right at the minute.

[10:57] I'm talking about I'm talking about the echoes.

[10:59] » But if I'm a good AMT and I'm on shift, I know who's coming to the call because

[11:04] I'm listening to my radio. I know what bodies I've got when I climb in my car.

[11:08] I know who's coming and what what grade they are. I know whether got a

[11:11] paramedic, how many EMTs and who's coming. So, I have a good idea when I

[11:16] leave my house what the staffing is going to be. Then I might hear Nelson or

[11:20] David chime in that they're coming as well. So, it's not like we're in a

[11:24] vacuum and we have to show up on scene and do a headcount. That's not the way

[11:27] it works. We know when we're leaving our home what the staffing will be. So,

[11:35] my suggestion continues to be if you want to move,

[11:40] fine. But I would recommend you come as far as

[11:43] the town and wait for further direction at that point. But coming all the way to

[11:48] the scene is probably not a, you know, especially

[11:52] with an engine, it's probably not going to help much. You have a question.

[11:57] » Um, so the Lucas device, I know that we have a Lucas device and I believe

[12:02] Kundy's Harbor has a Lucas device on their ambulance. I believe that you guys

[12:07] do not. Is that a correct statement? We rely on mid coast MC2.

[12:13] » So if MC2 is not here, you don't have a Lucas device. Is that

[12:17] » correct? In which case, we would then call for

[12:19] » So that's why we need more people, you know, like responding to you. If it's an

[12:24] echo, if you don't have a Lucas device to take place of an EMT, if you're

[12:28] responding to an echo call, then you you would use the Lucas device. But if you

[12:32] don't have a Lucas device, you need other people. And I think it's better to

[12:37] er on the side of having too many people than not enough people and have the

[12:43] delay that Ben just said. You know, if you go on site and then say, "Hey, wait,

[12:48] don't call don't call anybody until I say you're involved in a in doing

[12:53] compressions and if there are other people there, then they could call the

[12:57] town and that you know the people that are staged there and get them fast. But

[13:00] if they're already there, I don't understand why you don't want additional

[13:05] help. To me, it just seems like you need additional help. Why don't you come?

[13:10] » I think part of it what what Scott's pointing out is if you're responding

[13:14] from your station, your 20 minute response time is not effective.

[13:19] » It depends on where you are. I I guess it depends on it doesn't take 20

[13:23] minutes. If you're responding from your station,

[13:27] » your 20 minute response time is not effective for us on our side of town.

[13:33] takes to address the issue with the Lucas to the call that we had at

[13:38] Interstate. >> Yeah.

[13:41] » The paramedics were tied up on a call on your side of

[13:46] town. So the Lucas tool wasn't available and

[13:50] they were transporting a basic level call

[13:55] and yet they tied up the paramedic. >> Yeah, we always do. Everybody does,

[13:59] right? Doesn't everybody >> Can I finish please?

[14:01] » Yeah. So on that call,

[14:05] the fly car Lucas tool was unavailable. >> Your ambulance was transporting. Your

[14:12] Lucas tool was unavailable. >> Yeah.

[14:14] » And the next paramedic for us arriving came from a wool witch.

[14:19] » Yes, I remember. Yeah. So, we had a perfect storm that by the time the

[14:26] people responded from your station, as was pointed out, we were 25 minutes into

[14:31] the call without the life-saving equipment we should have had.

[14:36] » So, you should just buy it. >> Why don't you buy a Lucas?

[14:39] » Why you don't own one? >> Just buy a Lucas device. We all the

[14:42] other ones have them. >> That's a That's a wrong answer to the

[14:45] problem. >> I mean, it's a Lucas thing, I think, is

[14:47] a different discussion than what we're talking about. No, I I fully agree, but

[14:50] we're into the Lucas thing. So, I just give you what I think should be the

[14:55] solution is is buy one. Solve this problem.

[14:58] » You said we don't have this problem. We got them all over the place. But the

[15:00] fact is we just give an example. >> I've said it from the beginning. We need

[15:03] clear direction and every and I knew it was going to be coming because as soon

[15:07] as we start responding and it's only harmful side soon as we start

[15:11] responding, I knew it was going to we were going to take flack.

[15:13] » Yeah. >> And it's just a matter of time and it's

[15:16] all wants clear. clear direction of what you want from town staff so that we can

[15:22] do what you guys want us to do so that we can

[15:25] » Well, Muriel rolled today twice. >> I mean, I don't know if she had anybody

[15:30] with her, but she rolled twice on any >> I appreciate your

[15:37] think >> and sending more people is different

[15:42] than sending equipment just and the equipment in theory can be addressed,

[15:47] but the Lucas example doesn't mean that you need to send pium firefighters to

[15:52] adopt the call. >> I'm not necessarily disagreeing with the

[15:56] whole time factor. I I don't disagree with some of that. Although I would say

[16:01] for an example, yesterday we were at the town office and all the ambulances are

[16:06] basically out of town from other side of Cook's Corner,

[16:10] » West Bath almost from the hospital and we can make first patient contact,

[16:15] » right? >> And which I thought I guess what's best

[16:18] for the patient even though it's wasn't even I think it's an alpha call. It

[16:22] wasn't even a delta. >> Correct.

[16:24] » Yeah, it was an alpha. >> Again, I think some of the times that's

[16:27] prudent for somebody to make contact with that patient. So, they're not

[16:31] waiting 15 or 20 minutes for somebody to drive from mid coast to to make contact

[16:36] with >> three was there at least 15 minutes

[16:39] before the >> regardless. But that I mean that was one

[16:42] of the times when we said discretion because

[16:47] I was here. I was at town office with the engine when we're saying, "Well,

[16:50] it's one of those discretion things and I guess they had toned out harbor and

[16:54] you were texted us." >> Yeah, I texted the crew because they it

[16:57] was a rescue 5 call all the way on the other side of town. I said, "Please

[17:00] start that way because I knew it was going to take at least 25 minutes for

[17:05] rescue 5 to get over there." >> And that was before we even knew what

[17:09] the call. We just knew it was an EMS call in the address. I didn't want to

[17:12] delay patient contact for 25 30 minutes. >> Time does matter though and I I I

[17:19] wouldn't argue that part. >> So you rolled an engine to a patient

[17:22] that has known psychological problems >> with the license. That's what happened

[17:28] to that. >> Well, that's that that's okay. Why

[17:31] wouldn't that >> No, it isn't.

[17:33] » I mean, that's not okay on that on a protocol basis. So that that's a mistake

[17:37] in >> Well, how would you know that? How would

[17:39] you know? >> Alcohol. I know exactly what I'm

[17:41] supposed to be doing on an alpha call. No lights, no siren. So, I mean, that's

[17:47] that's just the situation. Make main EMS protocol statutory. Anything else you

[17:53] could want? >> I've explained to our volunteers on on

[17:57] cold responses on alphas and bravos. I don't believe I've yet had a

[18:01] conversation with Frank or the town staff about alpha, excuse me, alphas and

[18:05] charlie. I don't think we've had that conversation yet about town response. So

[18:10] I don't know if they responded lights and siren or not on that call. I just

[18:15] know that >> this room call is the volume.

[18:19] » We're not using addresses but >> might agree with you.

[18:23] » I'm just saying Charlie call. >> This is the one that rescue 5 got toned

[18:27] out for when rescue 3 and rescue 7 were both at the hospital.

[18:30] » When I I saw you guys go by road and I didn't see the lights.

[18:36] » I I didn't go with them. There was two guys in the

[18:40] I wasn't I don't know if they used lights or

[18:43] » I didn't assume lights or sirens. >> I'm assuming they knew because it said

[18:46] on the radio that there was no issue with it was just a dead whatever. It was

[18:51] the issue there wasn't a big issue with what was happening.

[18:56] » Our thought was let's just make patient contact so that it's not somebody's not

[19:01] waiting 20 minutes. >> So I don't recall that there was any

[19:04] information provided about potential. We know that. Um, did you hear that that

[19:10] Rescue 7 said it was going to the scene and just disregard it?

[19:14] » They radioed in and said that they were heading to the scene.

[19:17] » They were already resent 3 was in route before rescue 7 said that they were

[19:22] going to clear and take the call. >> Yeah.

[19:24] » So, just just to clarify this, I was on a job at the intersection road, Mountain

[19:32] Road. I saw engine three go through, no lights, no siren. Um, several minutes

[19:38] later, I saw rescue 7 go through with the lights on and then they siren when

[19:42] they hit the intersection. So, that's what I saw.

[19:45] » Okay. >> Regardless, I I it was one of those ones

[19:50] where we No, I didn't I I did hear them later on say something about cancelling

[19:56] I I did hear say something about cancelling rescue 5

[19:59] » or whatever it was that they were going to take the call,

[20:02] » but Can I I don't mean to offend anybody,

[20:05] but I'm put my lawyer on it. From an EMS standpoint, the only

[20:12] organizations that have authority to make decisions about EMS care are OBI

[20:18] counties. The town of Harpsville does not have an

[20:22] EMS license and cannot be making decisions about how to staff calls.

[20:25] » And I believe he didn't because I think it was

[20:28] » I just want to make sure that's clear that town employees

[20:32] don't have the authority under manium as rags

[20:36] » to decide whether to go to a call or not.

[20:39] » That's correct. >> Remember I I I told you at the very

[20:43] beginning right >> as right not the chief of harps neck but

[20:47] the chief of the agency that was assigned the call

[20:50] » which was I made the call and asked them to respond.

[20:52] » I just want to make sure we agree on that. when whenever the town staff

[20:56] responds and this this way in the town ordinance as well they are operating

[21:00] under the agency under whose truck they are responding on they are not because

[21:06] the town doesn't have an agency. >> So

[21:10] I think we're getting way too deep on that one alpha call that occurred

[21:15] yesterday. I just want to get back to the concept of automatic response of

[21:20] Delta and Echo calls and try and point out that the data doesn't indicate

[21:29] that there is a need for this. And when you look at the 42 narratives, I read

[21:35] them all. There's no suggestion in any of those Delta Echo calls that

[21:41] additional staffing would have changed an outcome.

[21:45] And I'm happy to print them out and redact them and let you read them and

[21:50] you can disagree. But I'm just telling you

[21:52] » I I don't need to read your >> okay

[21:54] » even redacted. I don't need to read your reports. I I not going to in any in any

[21:59] form or shape or form suggest that you are not presenting a true and accurate

[22:05] account of the data that you reviewed. Um I I like I said uh today we had two

[22:12] calls. The staff responded on the calls because that's what the policy was. They

[22:16] were both delta level calls. Um and It's very hard to have a policy that reflects

[22:25] every scenario, >> right?

[22:28] » We as a group and actually this was the decision we had made years ago. The

[22:32] policy with Delta and Echo years ago and we just re um we reaffirmed that last

[22:39] month. The same policy we had always had that had fallen by the wayside. uh if

[22:44] deltas aren't necessary and the data says they're not necessary and that's

[22:50] what Harpsack wants to do, I don't have a problem with that. I would I would

[22:55] encourage, not my agency, I would encourage that you continue to have them

[23:01] respond on echolle calls and then when you get there, if you don't need them,

[23:05] cancel them because echoes you you said you've had three of them, right?

[23:11] » This year. >> Yeah. We had three of them this year.

[23:14] We're not talking a significant number of calls. We're not talking adding uh a

[23:19] measurable risk to the community by having them respond. But there is a risk

[23:23] to the patient if you don't have enough staff and if you wait and delay

[23:28] treatment and find out you don't have enough staff. That's my encouragement.

[23:32] » I completely agree with I completely agree with you that staffing levels on

[23:37] these calls echo calls involve extended onseen care. They're very different from

[23:43] all the other calls. You're working the patient for 20 minutes to an hour on

[23:48] scene. Having more bodies can be very valuable call.

[23:54] » And and even if you guys had a Lucas on your truck, I've seen this. The Lucas

[23:58] does not fit every patient. >> No, it doesn't fit everybody.

[24:01] » You you need the the backs that can do the chest compressions that the Lucas is

[24:05] not going to fit the patient. It doesn't happen very often, but it happened to me

[24:09] twice last year alone >> on a number of patients that I had. So,

[24:14] » um, and again, like like we've all said, uh, if if they're coming along, right,

[24:20] even on echolle calls, we should not be driving four-wheel vehicles on two

[24:25] wheels, right? We should be operating appropriately to maintain public safety.

[24:30] And if you have an EMS provider, unnecessarily a driver, and they get

[24:34] there and they say, "This isn't a cardiac arrest or you know, and I have

[24:39] three people and don't need any help carrying and they want to call engine

[24:43] 3." He said, "We're all set. Thank you. You can you can return." Nobody's going

[24:47] to be offended by that. That's the lowhanging fruit. If you don't want to

[24:51] do deltas, I I think Obsc is perfectly capable of deciding whether or not

[24:58] deltas fit your parameters. I I haven't had them respond on enough deltas since

[25:03] we started this back up to know, but so far I think I think when you look back

[25:09] at the policy, we've had the policy in place for a long

[25:13] time. It's but what we experienced during that period of time up till now

[25:19] is the only time we really saw the municipal firefighters responding

[25:26] was to identified cardiac arrest calls. I did not see them responding to calls

[25:34] that weren't identified as cardiac arrest. They weren't going to those

[25:39] other calls. But you use the example more recently. You use the example of

[25:43] the guy with his face down in the snow like two weeks ago and two weeks before

[25:47] that and two weeks before that. That's not a cardiac call.

[25:50] » But historically that's again it's been pointed out you can't write a policy

[25:55] that covers every call. Now clearly in that situation the the circumstances

[26:02] warranted a response but that was the very you know that was very clear from

[26:08] the circumstances of that with the call being south of the station and all the

[26:13] respondents being north of the station. that made sense. But that was, you know,

[26:19] that's been one isolated case which again comes back to there should be some

[26:25] discretion and people making some, you know,

[26:31] » decisions. We can't we can't mandate this thing so black and white that it's

[26:35] going to occur. You're going to do this, you're not going to do that. But as a

[26:40] general policy or as a general rule then I think we can say you know

[26:48] echo you know I I don't want to start getting into

[26:53] carving this up into little pieces >> about well you you got to listen to

[26:57] every >> thing say is this we go we don't go or

[27:02] so so long as they're they're you know being responsive to the pe to the

[27:08] district people responding and they say we're good, thank you, but you can

[27:14] return and they respond effectively that that's fine. Yeah.

[27:19] » Yeah. Does I mean does that does that address

[27:24] some of the >> I'm just here to provide facts.

[27:27] » I just wanted everybody to know what the facts were.

[27:30] » But but I mean the facts you the facts you're proposing are we we delete the

[27:34] Delta call on the role. I mean that's I mean

[27:36] » well that's the >> I mean it's not it's not like you know

[27:39] I'm just a fact it's like my proposal is we're dropping Delta calls on the

[27:44] policy. >> No my proposal if I were in charge and

[27:48] making all the rules which I'm not. I'd say if you want to move move as far as

[27:52] the town and then wait for further >> instruction. I don't see any I don't see

[27:55] any benefit of stopping once you're rolling. Either you're not rolling or

[27:58] you're rolling. When you're rolling you might as well keep going till somebody

[28:00] turns around. And what if we're

[28:03] » talking about two quarts two quarts of diesel

[28:07] » Excuse me. I didn't hear >> Yeah.

[28:09] » I mean, >> you know, and I know that I I've heard

[28:14] you have them staged over here on certain calls too, like smoke alarms and

[28:18] stuff like that. >> Yeah. I'm not bring I'm not going to

[28:20] bring that resource that's currently stationed on the east side of town all

[28:25] the way to a to the vicorage for a false line.

[28:29] I want to stage them somewhere that if they're they're more ava they're

[28:34] available but not only to me they're available to the

[28:38] » and those are those are calls that you have experience with

[28:42] those specific buildings those same fire alarm systems going off. So you're not

[28:48] going into it blind. It's not a well is it really a cardiac arrest or is it you

[28:52] know is it an anxiety attack or what it is. It's it's a known you've been there

[28:57] three times in the last two weeks, right?

[28:59] » But but guys, we've switched to a different topic and the fire calls,

[29:03] they're rolling. So now you're talking about do you want to stage them

[29:05] somewhere or do something else? It's not a policy question. They're rolling

[29:09] » that that's I'm just I'm just saying on the on the

[29:13] medical call, I I would simply prefer that

[29:19] have them roll and encourage the first responders once they've gone on scene

[29:22] and verified what they have whether whether they can use the help or not.

[29:26] They can't use them. Just simply call them on the radio and say we're all set.

[29:29] You can >> We've been doing this for years now on

[29:31] the fire side and we often cancel them. It's no big deal. They're on their way.

[29:36] It's a known quantity. If we need them, we need them. If we don't, we turn

[29:39] around. >> And I don't have a problem with if if

[29:41] Harps wants to drop Deltas. I at least on that side of town, I don't have a

[29:46] problem with that. I haven't examined the deltas to come to the same

[29:50] conclusion you have yet. We haven't been doing it long enough. Um It's great fun

[29:55] to help those consumers. >> Uh what I may do is I may ask our EMS

[30:01] providers when they go on a delta to give me feedback on whether or not and

[30:05] then see because the reality is if we have 20 deltas over x period of time and

[30:12] it turned out three times they were useful, I would probably keep them

[30:17] coming at least for Kundy's harbor because of the response time even for

[30:20] Moors Island to get there. There are differences. I

[30:25] » hope has the luxury of having a schedule with a lot of EMTs that have

[30:32] committed to commit to certain times. And I know you run your department

[30:36] differently, but personal is a little bit of a different animal because I know

[30:41] I've got definitely an EMT on standby every slot of the week and then I've got

[30:46] two more who the Delta call say that they'll jump in. So, We have a pretty

[30:52] deep bench. >> Yeah.

[30:54] » That doesn't match the circumstance we just spent the last two weeks

[30:57] discussing, which is you're not you don't have one somebody on the schedule

[31:01] and you don't have anybody else. >> That's what we've just been discussing.

[31:04] That's why we revised the policy to deal with that situation. So that is

[31:08] standardized that keep it standard that description of the situation is in

[31:13] direct conflict with the description given on the policy revision. Well, but

[31:17] but to be fair though, can if I could correct to be fair, they have a

[31:21] schedule, but what I heard Chief Mercier clearly say that they've identified

[31:25] certain slots won't be full and they're not and they know that ahead of time so

[31:28] that they're going to >> I'm 100% supportive of that whole

[31:32] situation. But the reason you have that situation is that chief pers pointed out

[31:37] like okay we're trying to contain it but we also know we don't have any backup

[31:40] during that period which is in direct conflict with and in every call we know

[31:45] we got at least two more coming. >> It just doesn't match that that the two

[31:49] things do not match together. >> Just look look

[31:53] » this may be my doing. I came from an environment where we had

[31:57] every shift covered seven days a week, 24 hours a day, which

[32:03] is a very different environment than what Ben has.

[32:06] We were looking at a situation due to illness and retirements that for the

[32:11] first time in a long time, we might have one or two shifts where no one was

[32:15] committed. That is frightening to me. >> But I've realized now

[32:20] » I say what I said before. I'm fully supportive of that problem. And what

[32:24] sending improved as you got them. >> Let me finish.

[32:27] » Yeah, >> I have realized that what I was worried

[32:30] about is what Ben lives with every damn day of the week.

[32:33] » And I'm now very sympathetic to Ben. I'm more realistic that even though I might

[32:39] have a six-hour gap on Saturdays which what we have that'll be fine. We will

[32:45] live to fight another day and it's okay. And I'm not going to panic over that. So

[32:49] if you want to blame anybody for >> I'm not blaming anything. I'm just

[32:52] trying to understand the situation. So, >> it's just that for the first time in our

[32:57] experience at Harvard, we were walking in Ben's shoes for a little bit

[33:00] » and we realize how difficult that is. >> Okay.

[33:04] » You do it long enough and you don't even notice.

[33:07] » Well, I'm just telling you I have more respect

[33:10] for what you have to deal with after having fredded over this over this

[33:14] situation for some time. >> So, I have great respect for what you

[33:18] deal with every day. But that's where this comes from.

[33:22] I'm just trying to understand the situation. So, I'm going to reiterate it

[33:26] in my own little brain, right? We have a gap where Harshel neck can't have will

[33:31] not necessarily know that they have an EMT coming. So, we are asking the town

[33:36] staff in that known gap to go and we're saying that's what we've said that's

[33:41] changed the policy to say. So, I presume that is still standing as what we're

[33:46] going to do. I have absolutely that's great if you

[33:50] want to do that >> and we are

[33:52] » well we already we already said we're going to is it not needed

[33:55] » it's working right when they they'll notify the town staff when there is that

[34:00] gap and we've got this your equipment where it's working

[34:04] » and I assume that this is beneficial to you that when no EMT responds that the

[34:09] town will respond to you because you probably have more exposure than we do.

[34:15] Yeah, it comes and goes, es and flows. >> Uh, we've got a fair number of EMTs on

[34:21] the roster now, but the >> the question is,

[34:25] » uh, I've got I've got one person that's going out with I think wrist surgery.

[34:29] I've got another person that's uh left town yesterday, isn't going to be back

[34:33] till the 16th or whatever, you know, and when you have that number

[34:38] of people on the roster, you need a lot of people to cover up, right, the same

[34:43] amount of time. But the real the reality is that's that's a day to you know or a

[34:49] week toeek thing where people are going to take vacation time. People are and so

[34:56] far I have never been able to get the volunteers to sign up for shifts.

[35:01] » So the fact that you have done that to me is like

[35:06] but it's just never something as many times we tried it over the years doesn't

[35:10] work. We're lucky and we appreciate that. But we also have to be respectful

[35:13] what you have to deal with on a daily basis because you never know who's gonna

[35:16] » for 30 years. It's not like it just happened.

[35:19] » Yeah. >> So, um then so I'll circle back around.

[35:25] David, do you want to drop Deltas from hops neck response?

[35:29] » Is that what you want to have done? >> What I'm saying is I don't think it adds

[35:35] value. as to whether you want to continue to do that. That's a question

[35:38] for the chiefs because you're putting your resources at risk because you're

[35:41] moving fire engines around. All I'm saying is that the data doesn't support

[35:45] that that's going to achieve anything. >> I'm willing to suspend the data the the

[35:50] Delta calls and >> on both sides Dave for or at both

[35:57] stations on meaning if we're Bailey and that

[36:03] » why wouldn't we just suspend them totally? I don't think that's our

[36:06] » I'm just like, okay, let's just cancel let's just cancel the town guys rolling

[36:10] as a matter of policy on Delta. >> So much easier.

[36:13] » No real problem with that. >> And if I show up at a Delta call and it

[36:16] turns out to be a serious am >> I'll be on the radio right away asking

[36:20] for mutual aid. >> So why don't we do this because it

[36:24] sounds like um sounds like we've you need guidance. You've been loud and

[36:30] clear and it's our job to help provide the guidance. I have no problem with

[36:34] suspending deltas, right? I'm going to ask my EMS providers when they go on a

[36:39] delta level call to give me feedback and we'll see if including if we need to

[36:46] at least on that side of town if we re need to go back to deltas or not. It

[36:50] still doesn't take away from if we don't have an EMS provider respond. That's

[36:54] already part of the policy. We're already going to respond on the call. If

[36:58] it's an echo, we we're leaving echoes in there. If they're asked for help,

[37:02] they're going to respond. We're just talking about suspending delta and and

[37:07] » my side of town. I'll ask my providers for feedback on deltas if there was a

[37:11] delta that they could have used and it made a difference to wait for the delay

[37:14] and all that and we'll see what we can come up with. It's probably going to be

[37:18] anecdotal. I don't want to add any more fields to the EMS report.

[37:22] » Oh my god, there's too many. There's too many.

[37:26] » So many. So it can be a crisis that we have missed. I I will I will say this.

[37:32] Um EMD, which is a nationwide thing, EMD is a

[37:38] very conservative program. So that it if it could be read as serious or

[37:46] severely serious or moderately serious, EMD automatically classifies it the

[37:51] higher the higher level of seriousness when it

[37:55] comes to >> determining codes.

[37:58] » And it's telephone. see something who then reports it to somebody in the phone

[38:02] who then reports it and it gets distorted.

[38:05] EMD is relatively unreliable. I get that.

[38:09] » Um I don't know if I >> I'm not willing to go that far, but it's

[38:13] statutoily required. So there we go. We don't care.

[38:17] » Whatever it is, we don't care. >> It's significantly more reliable to what

[38:22] we had before EMD. Fine. I'm just saying I'm often surprised when I write on as

[38:28] I'm sure you are. >> Yeah. That joke about two blind people

[38:33] describing something. >> Uh all right.

[38:38] Are we good with that? So do do we need to take official action on that or we

[38:42] just got consensus that we're just going to suspend

[38:44] » suspend the date? >> Okay.

[38:46] » And you know we'll turn them around if on on any call. I don't care what it is.

[38:53] fires, >> make sure they understand their role is

[38:56] to >> so that we can keep those resources

[38:59] available. >> My my only request on the turning them

[39:02] around is um and I say this to my folks, please don't turn them around until you

[39:07] actually have verifi you're arrived on scene and verified what you have because

[39:11] there's going to be nothing that puts mud on your face quicker than turning

[39:15] somebody around because you think you know what you have and and in your case

[39:21] you have them stage here. That's completely different. I'm talking about

[39:23] outright cancelling them, especially with the diesels because once you start

[39:28] the diesel, you really need to run the diesel anyways. You don't want to just

[39:31] turn around and shut it off. >> So, you end up driving around anyways.

[39:36] » Just have them come until you verified it and then that gives the engine time

[39:40] to warm up the the exhaust and all that that we have to deal with now before

[39:45] before they turn around. And it's perfectly fine and we've all done it to

[39:50] say, "All right, keep coming, but you can respond cold and we'll let you know

[39:54] or or you know, whatever." That's perfectly fine, too. But I I would just

[39:59] hesitate cancelling somebody until you've actually arrive arrived and

[40:04] verified what you if they're already started is what I'm

[40:08] saying. >> Well, no,

[40:10] » I was going to cancel somebody set. That would be foolish.

[40:14] » I have I have no issue with that. But I do have a question. And I thought like

[40:17] that happened today. Guys came in utility three and my understanding was

[40:21] you were rolling in the fire truck so that you were available as a fire crew

[40:25] when and turned around. So >> what what happened on discussion?

[40:30] » Yeah, I I think we need to get back to rolling the I know the utilities is a

[40:34] lot more. >> So on the first one we took utility

[40:37] three because ins harbor that narrow road that we was going to be very hard

[40:42] with the engine. That's why >> that's fine. I just didn't know what

[40:45] what discussion when we got on

[40:49] » the South D was it South Der that one there

[40:52] » that was >> I was here for that one so I think that

[40:56] was >> so to add to that though I think we need

[40:59] to give the paid staff the latitude >> I I'm not objecting I just it was not

[41:05] what I thought the policy said just asking what the circumstances were that

[41:09] led to that decision agreeing with it objecting to it or anything I just asked

[41:14] what it was engine three on that road was going to be a a disaster. So they

[41:19] made a >> we had the discussion and she said it's

[41:22] pretty narrow road terrible road >> and I I really didn't want to move my

[41:25] gear out of the truck but I

[41:29] » my my biggest concern so I think the reason we had discussed we should

[41:33] default to the engine. I'm not saying that there can't be exceptions like the

[41:37] first call >> was because you're if you need to peel

[41:42] off because there is a structure fire >> a higher level call you need to you need

[41:45] to be in >> it for that matter we don't carry a full

[41:49] jump bag on the utility truck we carry an AED and we carry a stop the bleed kit

[41:54] and that's it the engine has a full jump bag it has you know

[41:58] » so and I wasn't making a big deal out of it and I don't want to pretend like I

[42:02] was I was just curious what happened >> I didn't You know, I don't disagree with

[42:06] anything you said and and that is that is the norm to take the engine

[42:11] » when and when they you know an example is when they came to interstate they

[42:14] brought the pickup truck >> because Sean spoke to me and said we

[42:19] know when we get here that we have an engine in our station that's only

[42:23] » a mile or so away. So it it wasn't that didn't diminish by coming over here. It

[42:31] didn't diminish their capability because they weren't going to have to go back to

[42:35] OBI to get an engine. They had one a mile away from them. So,

[42:39] » I have no problem with that explanation. >> That that I'm 100% okay with that. You

[42:44] know, if you're coming over in the pickup truck because you think, you

[42:47] know, my engine's sitting there waiting for you, that's fine. You know, cuz

[42:52] you're not being displaced. I don't want you going somewhere in a pickup truck

[42:58] when there is no engine available for you to respond to.

[43:02] » Probably should >> I agree.

[43:03] » Probably should grab the jump bag off of the engine though if you're going to

[43:07] take the utility truck. So like that that call that I asked them to

[43:14] take engine three because they dispatched rescue 5 to Harps neck that

[43:17] they took the engine on that one. But if they had had the utility truck for some

[43:20] reason, especially if you're making initial patient contact and not I I I

[43:25] get it. You get an extra five or five five minutes of response if you take the

[43:28] pickup truck or more depending on where you're going. For sure.

[43:32] » Okay. All right. A beneficial response. >> Are we good? Are we good on that topic?

[43:37] » I hope so. >> All right.

[43:38] » Okay. We're ready to quit now. >> Uh we've got 15 minutes left. So, um

[43:46] » yeah, I still would like to talk to you though. And you don't have to wait.

[43:50] » You can do it over the phone. Um you give me a call. Um

[43:54] the did you have an opportunity to get some

[43:58] information back from Kennabport you'd like to share?

[44:02] » I'll start and then you can >> I was so

[44:05] sure. Yes. >> So it was last week that um Frank and I

[44:14] spoke with Chief Zigga. He's in Kenny Bunkport.

[44:17] » Zigga. >> Zigga. Zigga. Thank you. Okay. Zigga

[44:20] » know him well. He actually owns property in Harpsswwell in the Pendy's Harbor

[44:25] » where I grew up. His son was in our >> Okay. Well, anytime he's here, we he has

[44:29] to go on calls. >> Yeah.

[44:31] » So, he needs to join in Portland. So, he was a colleague of Chief Wallace. He

[44:38] lives in Scarboro, but he is the fire chief in Kenny Bun Court, and he just

[44:42] started in May, so he's kind of new to the system that they have. Um he said

[44:48] that based on the knowledge he had received that Kenny Bunkport

[44:54] started talking about transitioning to or merging their nonprofit entities in

[45:00] the 2002 time frame and it didn't actually go to a vote until 2005.

[45:07] At that time Nathan Poor who's currently the town manager in Falmouth was the

[45:12] Kenny Bunkport town manager. So, we have a phone call set up with him tomorrow to

[45:17] get his, you know, input on how that merger, that's kind of the word they

[45:22] were using. >> Yeah.

[45:23] » How that kind of came to be. Um, did they hire a consultant? Did they have a

[45:29] report issued? So, we're going to have that conversation tomorrow. But just to

[45:33] talk a little bit about the current system in Kenny Bunkport, they actually

[45:38] only have two full-time paid staff. the chief and he works four days a week and

[45:46] then they have a what do they call a community risk reduction person

[45:52] full-time working Tuesday to Friday they have what is considered an on call

[45:59] system is that the term that he used yeah on call

[46:02] » means they get paid for the hours they receive

[46:04] » and so they have these I don't know if I should use the term district because I

[46:08] think he said they had one fire district but they have these different locations

[46:13] where different historically these departments have existed are these

[46:17] nonprofit entities and so the they're call members he said he had about 25

[46:24] active call members but that is their system that they use they do not he

[46:30] doesn't cover EMS that's a different organization as a separate entity that

[46:35] does EMS so >> is the on call people scheduled so you

[46:38] know they're on call >> um that was a question I I don't know

[46:42] that we asked him >> basically

[46:46] » got a pool of 30 and you don't know whether any of them

[46:49] » 25ish I think but >> I think it was like

[46:53] » he had more but >> on the roster

[46:55] » but then the active group was much smaller

[46:58] » sounds familiar >> yeah we know all about that one

[47:02] » we got lots of people on the roster >> so the EMS is a separate nonprofit that

[47:09] rents space from the town and they apparently have all pdeiums, but we

[47:13] didn't spend a lot of time talking about the EMS system. They have a fund in

[47:18] county bunk. It was based on someone their estate and that is called the

[47:24] kitridge fund and it funds most of the the large pieces of equipment that Kenny

[47:30] Bunport has to buy. So >> apparatus.

[47:33] » Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They described that when they we interviewed him for the

[47:38] municipal program. They described that process

[47:41] » of how there was a >> good

[47:45] » historical donor. >> That's good.

[47:48] » Sounds good. >> So they have the village station which

[47:52] is where the fire chief is and the compliance person. They have a Wildwood

[47:57] station, Goose Rocks and Cape Corpus. He said they recently acquired Cape Corpus.

[48:04] So they merged in terms of operations, but there was still, you know, entities

[48:10] that own certain property. So I think that's taken time over the years to deal

[48:14] with. >> This is a glimpse into the future.

[48:17] » It sounds very familiar, doesn't it? >> Well, the the the volunteer fire

[48:21] companies, didn't they essentially become auxiliaries?

[48:24] » I think we didn't really he he wasn't there then, so he doesn't have all of

[48:28] that history. I think we're going to get more of that tomorrow from Nathan for

[48:32] » some of the companies,

[48:36] the corporations that own the building still like one of them still owns the

[48:40] building, rents it to the >> I think that's goose rocks.

[48:44] » Goose rocks and one of them gave it to them. Different stages consolidation

[48:50] » and that happened in South Portland as well when South Portland had a volunteer

[48:54] company station that they manned for years and then eventually

[49:00] » But you didn't say each individual company they took you kind of identity

[49:04] for their for their district or their fire department

[49:10] » to buy stuff for that. >> Yeah. Special stuff they want like if

[49:13] they wanted a Lucas device that wasn't in their normal kit or something

[49:17] » or a pole. I don't know. You're just >> I want one of those polls.

[49:22] » Yeah, we have a >> He did say they relied heavily on their

[49:26] mutual aid partners Kenny Bunk or Rundle and Bitterford. And he did say that, you

[49:31] know, they're starting to look at how long their model is going to work

[49:36] because it's >> Did they tell you how many people they

[49:38] try? I mean, when they have a a fire, how many people they try and call?

[49:42] » So, I think they they get those three departments.

[49:46] » Yeah. No, >> I think he had like he had like he said

[49:51] he had a core of 198 that was the big difference between us.

[49:56] We just don't have people. He's got some people still active.

[50:02] » So they didn't get into So if they get call, they didn't tell you like how they

[50:05] get paid. Do they get paid on call or? >> We didn't get into that. I mean, I think

[50:10] it was interesting for us to know what their model was. And it is this on call

[50:15] model. They don't have eight full-time employees. They have two. Um, and they

[50:20] do pay these on call people, but we didn't really get into the structure of

[50:24] how >> generally in the fire service, the

[50:27] difference between a volunteer and an on call firefighters, they get paid for the

[50:30] on calls get paid for their hours. >> We know they get paid, but we didn't get

[50:34] into what the structure. >> So, they get paid what, like four hours

[50:37] if they get a call or >> it depends on the department.

[50:40] » Okay. >> They may have a minimum if you turn out

[50:43] you're going to get paid for hours. They may just say a straight number of hours

[50:46] that you work. That doesn't mean they're necessarily

[50:48] getting paid to set it home. >> They're not get like call

[50:52] » the tones go off, >> right?

[50:55] » No. When I was on the call department in Brunswick, you got paid per hour, the

[51:01] hour that you were actually engaged. >> Yeah.

[51:03] » But you you also got paid to attend training and they had scheduled training

[51:10] once a month. So you you accumulated at least a couple hours right a month pay

[51:16] by attending training but other than that there was no uh minimum call out

[51:23] pay. You got paid for the hours that you actually worked.

[51:27] » You so you didn't get called to like back in the old days when you used to

[51:30] carry like a beeper. You're on call and like when your beeper went on and you

[51:34] had to go in like when your call goes off. You don't get paid like something

[51:38] an hour just to hang out. >> No standby time.

[51:41] » Okay. >> No.

[51:42] » Okay. >> No, you only got paid when the tone went

[51:44] off. >> Okay.

[51:47] » So, I have to say I was really surprised that Kenny Bunkport with a lot of

[51:51] businesses and a kind of village area only had two full-time paid staff.

[51:58] » And I'm surprised too. >> That really surprised me.

[52:02] » What's their call volume? Did they give you any idea? He said 350 calls per

[52:06] year. >> How much?

[52:08] » That's just fire. >> That's just fire. You're right. We, you

[52:11] know, his people do not. It It's a separate entity. The EMS,

[52:16] » we probably do townwide. >> That's a lot of calls.

[52:19] » EMS calls. >> It's one a day.

[52:24] » Yeah. Yeah. I get that. But I'm just saying.

[52:28] » So it was, you know, >> we don't have two guys.

[52:30] » They're not having to consider higher 300 calls a year. They want to continue

[52:34] their model as long as they can is what was saying, but they're concerned that,

[52:40] you know, >> they have to start looking into the

[52:42] future. >> Yeah.

[52:46] » So, you're going to reach out to the current town manager in Felmouth

[52:51] » and hopefully he can tell you who they use for somebody to help the

[53:02] » Yeah. and he said, "Oh, oh, let me think about that. Let's talk."

[53:05] » Well, Chief Chief Everett was the chief before Chief Zigga, but I don't I I

[53:11] suspect Chief Effort was hired after they started the

[53:16] » merger. >> Merger.

[53:18] » That was the word he used. Yeah. >> So, the current town manager in Felmouth

[53:22] used to be in Kenny Bunk. >> Oh, okay.

[53:25] » Yeah. >> He was the chief.

[53:26] » Yeah. Okay. >> Well, he was the town manager for Okay.

[53:30] All right. When we interviewed them at the time

[53:34] for the uh administrative position, the the man was head of the water

[53:42] district >> and he was the administrator. He held

[53:47] the administrator's position >> and all he did at the time as a fire

[53:51] administrator was pretty much almost an HR administrative role.

[53:58] And then he transitioned from the fire administrator to the PIG

[54:06] when the model changed, but he was head of the water district.

[54:10] That was I I can't remember his name back then when we did it.

[54:14] » I don't remember either.

[54:21] » Okay. All right. Um let's see. I see that you adopted Jonathan's proposal for

[54:29] the EMS policy >> tonight.

[54:32] » It's on the select board agenda.

[54:40] » I think it's I think it's perfect. >> I'm sure you do.

[54:48] » And did somebody >> Frank, you snuck in a little bit more

[54:51] than I said. >> Oh, really? That's between two. just so

[54:54] you felt good about it and owned it. >> The compromise

[54:59] was definitely a compromise. >> Okay.

[55:02] » Was a lot shorter to read, Frank.

[55:07] So, the last thing um that's open that I want to try to get because we're almost

[55:12] up on our time is I would like to encourage the town to consider

[55:18] » putting to the voters on the November ballot getting back into pers rather

[55:22] than >> it's too late. You can't we can't even

[55:24] meet the deadline >> for November.

[55:26] » Yeah. It's a 60-day. You have to have the

[55:32] article to the town in a 60-day period. We're meeting with main furs next week.

[55:37] There's a whole series of um questions you have to respond to and

[55:43] they have to run their numbers through actuaries. And so we're beginning the

[55:48] process, but and they they will give when we get to a certain point, they

[55:52] will say this is the language you need to use for your vote in your community.

[55:58] » So there's >> so have you been able to verify there at

[56:02] July one? >> Um they said any month.

[56:05] » Oh, any. >> Okay, that all right. That makes me a

[56:08] little bit less concerned about it because like I said in Portland made

[56:10] » the beginning of any month once you've followed all of these steps.

[56:14] » Okay. All right. That's what I was trying to beat. I didn't want us to get

[56:17] stuck with having to wait to 2028 to get into it when these new employees are

[56:22] going to be on the books >> six months before that is what I was

[56:25] trying to >> I fel

[56:29] um the EMT gap planning is that's an

[56:34] ongoing thing. There's nothing new on that. Uh I'm going to talk to Scott

[56:39] after the meeting about the ambulance equipment thing. There's nothing new on

[56:42] that. the jump back thing.

[56:45] » Yeah, >> budget and staff planning. Is there

[56:48] anything we need to know about that or >> I think

[56:56] so I mean just real quick um I'm going to be looking to um get authorization to

[57:02] recruit a couple of additional prediums and uh as well as make some adjustments

[57:07] to the existing staff classifications that we have now. as far as your but

[57:14] your question is asking about budgets for the

[57:16] » well I was just going down the list >> 2027 fiscal 2027 so uh this might be a

[57:22] Terry question I mean do we now have

[57:27] the BAC schedule that we're all going to have to

[57:33] live by >> not yet not yet but I mean it's usually

[57:37] » the request for information starts around that September time frame Yeah, I

[57:42] know. I'm well aware of that. >> I'm I'm well aware of that. I'm well

[57:46] aware of the general schedule. >> I'm wondering what whether we have the

[57:50] real schedule. >> We we have not put together the official

[57:53] schedule. >> Is this the budget?

[57:55] » Yes. >> Yeah.

[57:56] » But I think the piece Frank's talking about so maybe we jumped ahead is doing

[58:00] something prior to >> a little something in 2026 because you

[58:06] can explain why. >> That's a different.

[58:08] » Yeah. Because we still haven't I mean you're doing the administrative position

[58:14] but nobody was hired to backfill the slot you were

[58:17] » exactly >> which was your slot a part-timer or was

[58:19] it a pdeium when you moved over to the administrative position?

[58:22] » I'm sorry say that ask your question. >> Was the position you moved in to

[58:26] administrator from was that part-time or pdeium?

[58:29] » I was p >> okay

[58:31] » and so you need two pdeiums then right or

[58:34] one parttime one or the other. So, we've been down one

[58:38] » pretty >> um and we've got So, because we've been

[58:45] down one and I I actually put in kind of a policy for no no overtime. So, people

[58:51] haven't been able to use their leave that they wanted to be able to use. So

[58:54] people got some news that that they need to use as well as um

[59:00] um being able to look at the whole system wise as far as

[59:05] our core group of people that are working and then a few people that not

[59:10] as many. Yeah, >> it look

[59:14] I've come to the conclusion we we need I'm looking at getting two pdeiums and

[59:18] then make some adjustments on because we've got some a pdeium and a part-time

[59:23] really that are basically working full-time.

[59:26] » Yeah, they are. >> So that we're looking to make some

[59:30] adjustments there to the staff that we have now.

[59:34] » But so you'd rather hire two PDMs rather than bump the people up that are

[59:37] basically doing part-time and fulltime work. No, I

[59:41] » both. >> I'm I'm doing both without Yeah, I'm not

[59:45] trying to broadcast all personnel issues out here, but yes, I'm going to be doing

[59:48] both. >> Now, were we paying overtime, Christie,

[59:52] when uh Mike was hiring for the >> for the storm coverages and stuff like

[59:59] that? >> Yeah. Yeah.

[1:00:02] » But you're advocating no overtime. >> So, that's that's that's what I've been

[1:00:06] doing >> just during this period. So I think

[1:00:08] maybe just step back a little bit before Frank was brought on as interim and you

[1:00:14] know there were some discussions about how we might need some additional help

[1:00:18] even with our current system and then you know Mike obviously no longer here

[1:00:24] and then Frank comes on board and we said Frank take time see how this system

[1:00:28] operates and then make a recommendation about what you think for staffing. So

[1:00:33] within this current model, within this current fiscal year, he's he asked his

[1:00:39] people to not kind of work overtime for a period of time and he was evaluating

[1:00:44] and now he's saying they need to take vacation. They have time off. We need

[1:00:48] more people to cover these shifts. >> Yeah,

[1:00:50] » we're down a person anyway since Mike's no longer with us. So

[1:00:55] » we need to add a couple people to our none of this controversial to make.

[1:01:00] Okay, where are you going to find the money? We have these people because of

[1:01:03] no >> Yeah. because of no overtime other

[1:01:05] people have stepped up you and Mike >> and worked more hours.

[1:01:08] » So it would just balance and bringing people on to avoid overtime cost. The

[1:01:14] balance there's always a balance between paying overtime or hiring additional

[1:01:19] personnel and that's the equation you're looking at.

[1:01:22] » Exactly. And home life as well. >> Right. Sometimes it's more

[1:01:26] » efficient just to bring somebody on board. But we were definitely paying

[1:01:29] some overtime when Mike was not around because people were stepping up to help

[1:01:33] in so many different ways. So, you know, there are always exceptions.

[1:01:37] » Now, by overtime, you're strictly talking about over 40 hours. You're not

[1:01:41] talking about predominant

[1:01:52] Chinese over all the time. >> Yeah.

[1:01:56] » And as well as Well, I mean,

[1:02:00] » but we have a really committed, dedicated group of people

[1:02:04] » and I think what Frank is proposing rewards perhaps some people that have

[1:02:09] really stepped up and taken on more hours and, you know, and then we want

[1:02:14] people to be able to take their time off, their vacation time, you know,

[1:02:18] their family time. >> Yeah. I don't know how you tell somebody

[1:02:21] that they can't take their own time off in their time. I can't

[1:02:28] say that >> it was the overtime piece.

[1:02:29] » No, we didn't. They didn't they didn't say that. I never said they couldn't

[1:02:33] take their leave. Yeah. >> But

[1:02:35] » they took it more to heart that they didn't want to create overtime. That's

[1:02:38] why they weren't taking leave. So, >> yeah.

[1:02:40] » Well, I appreciate you taking care of that.

[1:02:44] » Um, as far as the 27 budget though, is there any any thing to report or are we

[1:02:50] are we good? You ready for BAC on what we had recommended at the last meeting?

[1:02:56] How can you even expect that? We got a month to go.

[1:03:00] » I've been I've been working on how many hours and then I'm working on

[1:03:06] I mean I mean I can show you my I've got a lot of work product. I don't have

[1:03:11] anything as far as uh anything official to be able to I

[1:03:18] wouldn't want to pass it out as official budget documents, but I've got a lot of

[1:03:22] work work product that we can Well, Frank, I mean, you're going to get the

[1:03:26] schedule, so pretty soon we'll know what the schedule is.

[1:03:29] » I think we would bring a draft committee before

[1:03:33] » schedule is going to be faster than the rest of us get sucked into this vortex.

[1:03:37] » Yeah. >> And when you you you know, you got it

[1:03:40] sort of in the near final shape, we should take a look at it and see what we

[1:03:44] got going. >> I mean, I mean, at the end of the day,

[1:03:47] it's it's really not going to salary wise, it's going to be pretty

[1:03:53] pretty easy to the hours. >> Yeah.

[1:03:56] » How much how much we're paying by hour. The benefit part will be a little

[1:03:59] different because the main >> parasite.

[1:04:01] » No, I just wanted to make sure that you're you're on target to make sure

[1:04:04] that based on the feedback we've given you that town's on target for

[1:04:11] » numbers back that we believe meet your recommendation and see if you're

[1:04:17] comfortable with that. So basically, but you you you gave us

[1:04:22] you wanted 24 hours a day, seven days a week,

[1:04:25] » right? >> So those those are the numbers. Yeah.

[1:04:27] » Now it's up to us to figure out is how many full-time, how many PDM, what's the

[1:04:32] combination of the two, all that stuff. >> But there's some other basic assumptions

[1:04:36] that I think realistically you got to put on the table eventually to get to

[1:04:41] the numbers like, okay, when are we going to start?

[1:04:43] » Yeah, starting. >> Well, we made that recommendation last.

[1:04:45] I know I understand, you know, but I mean in terms of the budget that's

[1:04:49] that's really the >> you know

[1:04:51] » some of the stuff is just what's your set of assumptions.

[1:04:54] » Although I would hope that we be able to ramp up soon.

[1:04:56] » No, no, no. Everybody agreed with that. >> Yeah.

[1:05:01] » Okay. Um >> and then on fiscal 27, I'm just going to

[1:05:04] say this because the building committee met earlier, which is, you know, the

[1:05:07] other key one is like, okay, what's the date?

[1:05:10] » We heard there's a flexible schedule today.

[1:05:13] » I know. What is it? It was potentially groundbreaking March of 2027 with a 12

[1:05:20] month construction period. >> Okay. So, we're not going to have any

[1:05:23] building operating building operating costs.

[1:05:26] » No, they're saying March. Just hoping they can speed it up.

[1:05:30] » Correct. >> Okay. There we go.

[1:05:32] » Yeah. >> Or are we next meeting on the 24?

[1:05:41] That would be that. So >> yes. Okay. Uh this will be the same

[1:05:48] court tomorrow where we do for city first on our meeting afterward.

[1:05:52] » Yeah. Building committee at three fire and rescue.

[1:05:55] » Sorry. So can I can I ask a little minor discussion of that slightly?

[1:06:02] » I I said yes to that but it's going to be more difficult than

[1:06:07] I expected. So, I don't know if it's possible to

[1:06:11] have I mean, I'll live with the four. If it's possible for Aaron to know, are

[1:06:16] there some times when he could do one and the rest of the committee could do

[1:06:21] one so I could have the four back? one what we talking about

[1:06:26] » one no 1 p.m. So back to could we >> alternate or periodically or do

[1:06:32] something >> or do we do we flip we'll do fire and

[1:06:36] rescue at three and do the building I'm just saying I'm going to I I think

[1:06:42] you you might have traded Aaron not making it at one for me not making it at

[1:06:46] four. Now, that might be a good deal and you might want to take it,

[1:06:50] » but it's a committee decision, >> but I don't know if Erin has any

[1:06:54] capability of knowing whether the one could work.

[1:06:58] » No, it just depends what the office schedules me and we're busy.

[1:07:02] » That's fine. So, 24th is at 4. >> I I don't It makes no difference to me.

[1:07:06] » Well, could we like Ben suggested we do it at We do this one at three and the

[1:07:11] building at 4. Would that help, Jonathan?

[1:07:13] » That helps me for sure, but I don't know. if that works for all the rest of

[1:07:18] the you know this is a >> that's fine with me

[1:07:20] » a lot of moving parts in this >> it's two hours for me one way the other

[1:07:24] so that's >> it doesn't matter to me either so if we

[1:07:27] want to do it at three that's fine >> I mean I think we have to check with

[1:07:30] port city and right >> can somebody just check with the rest of

[1:07:33] the guys and see if that works >> I'll pencil it in at four and I'll plan

[1:07:36] to be here but if I get some relief on it will help me

[1:07:41] » okay I'll just put that on my >> So we're meeting at what time three

[1:07:45] » we're going We're gonna >> pencil in at 4 like we expect,

[1:07:48] » but it may be three >> to three.

[1:07:50] » Okay. >> Which won't matter to you because you're

[1:07:53] here anyways. You're going to be here from 3:00 to 5:00 no matter what.

[1:07:58] » I think we got to make sure. Right, Ryan?

[1:08:01] » Right. That's what I'm saying. Reports that need to see if it's possible. Yeah,

[1:08:05] » I'm I'm on the 24th. I'm putting in four,

[1:08:09] » but longer term it would be helpful if I get

[1:08:11] » We'll see what happens. Hopefully, we can move it.

[1:08:13] » Okay. for you. That's the benefit. >> Yeah, I don't think we have I mean, we

[1:08:16] still have open items, but we have nothing to report on the remainder of

[1:08:19] the open items unless somebody has new business.

[1:08:22] » 510. >> What's that?

[1:08:24] » It's 510. Mr. Chairman, co-chairman. >> Are we good to adjourn?

[1:08:30] » I'm all set. I was good. 10 minutes. >> All right. Thank you.

[1:08:34] » Thank you all. I think we did good.

Fire & Rescue Planning Committee 09102026

Transcript