[0:00]

[0:01] All right.

[0:02] It is now 7:33 PM.

[0:05] Council has been in a closed session.

[0:10] I will ask that we reconvene at this time.

[0:15] I do have a few announcements tonight.

[0:17]

[0:20] Herndon is certainly part of a much broader community,

[0:24] and we have a number of our residents who

[0:30] or of Nepalese origin.

[0:32] And I do want to take a moment to recognize

[0:36] and extend our collective town.

[0:39] Condolences to the people of Nepal

[0:42] following the catastrophic disasters

[0:45] that have brought them unimaginable loss and

[0:48] devastation with these floods.

[0:50] We mourn, certainly for those that have lost their lives

[0:54] or have family members and friends that are missing,

[0:57] and we hold them in our thoughts and the stand

[0:59] with their communities that have been forever changed.

[1:03] I want our Nepalese community here in Herndon

[1:07] to know that we offer our heartfelt compassion to them

[1:12] as they endure this, as well for their family members

[1:15] and their national community as they await

[1:21] for news of any loved ones.

[1:26] While we continue in that vein of remembrance,

[1:30] I also want to note that September 11 is coming up

[1:34] and it's the 25th anniversary to a profoundly devastating action

[1:41] that occurred here in the United States and has certainly changed

[1:45] the course of our nation.

[1:47] I choose to remember that as what came after, with how

[1:53] the nation and the people of this country came together,

[1:57] and we saw it right here in Herndon.

[1:59] There was a shortage of American flags

[2:01] and certainly no shortage of heart and compassion

[2:05] for our neighbors.

[2:06] So just want to remember 11.

[2:14] We do have a few items that are coming up

[2:16] that are of potential interest, and I think one of them

[2:19] would be a very strong interest given emails that I've received

[2:23] from people we do have on the agenda tonight,

[2:26] roadway safety action plan.

[2:28] And part of it, our chief of police

[2:30] will be joining to talk a little bit about e-bikes,

[2:32] but we will be having a big e-bike 101 session on Wednesday.

[2:38] So tomorrow, September 9 at o'clock

[2:41] PM at the Herndon community center.

[2:43] Herndon will be there.

[2:46] It's designed to help riders, parents, community

[2:48] members to understand safety.

[2:50] Please wear a helmet, but also the classifications

[2:55] and regulations because we have to operate within the state

[2:59] laws, and we are trying to work with our state legislators

[3:03] to change some of those laws, to allow

[3:05] us to support what we need in our communities

[3:08] to make it safer.

[3:10] But we understand that we need to educate.

[3:13] So that way, people, because we have

[3:15] seen a rise in the prevalence of these modes of transportation.

[3:20] We also have a community health and wellness fair.

[3:23] This Saturday, September 12, from 10:00 AM to 1:00 PM,

[3:27] cornerstones will be conducting this with Fairfax County

[3:31] at the Herndon neighborhood Resource

[3:34] Center at 1086 Elden street.

[3:37] You can get information about health services and programs

[3:40] there.

[3:40] Also on Fairfax county's website.

[3:44] And then something a little more fun.

[3:46] This is a very popular parks and rec event with puzzle palooza

[3:52] on Sunday, September 20.

[3:54] I'm sorry.

[3:55] No Oh, yeah.

[3:57] It's very popular, apparently.

[3:59] I don't think I could potentially

[4:00] put together a 500 piece puzzle as quickly as these groups can.

[4:04] If you would like to try your hand at that.

[4:06] I don't even know if there's registration

[4:09] spots still available, but check it

[4:10] out because it is that popular.

[4:13] Sunday, September 20 from 2 to 4:30 at the community center.

[4:18] You can get a team of four people.

[4:19] You work on a 500 piece puzzle.

[4:21] You can register and get information

[4:23] on the town's website.

[4:27] Town clerk I will ask if we've received any comments

[4:29] for the record or transactional disclosure declarations

[4:32] from council and any items on the agenda tonight.

[4:34] Yes, Mr. mayor, comments were provided to the town council

[4:37] and entered into the record on discussion item two

[4:40] a Herndon Centennial golf course.

[4:42] Hole number 9 protective netting request, data

[4:45] review and mitigation options.

[4:46] The clerk did not receive additional comments

[4:48] or any disclosures on any other items

[4:51] listed on tonight's agenda.

[4:53] Thank you, Mr. mayor.

[4:54] Thank you.

[4:56] Next on our agenda is a discussion item about the

[4:58] Herndon Centennial golf course.

[5:00] Hole number 9 protective netting request, which

[5:02] came in from said emails, data review and mitigation options

[5:07] for counsel.

[5:07] I will recognize Kirsten Jovanovic, deputy town

[5:09] manager for the update on this.

[5:11] Thank you.

[5:12] Mayor good evening.

[5:14] Tonight, I have a discussion item that came

[5:18] about from resident concerns.

[5:19] Many of those residents are here this evening

[5:21] regarding the impact of golf course activity

[5:24] on their properties, both from a property damage perspective as

[5:29] well as a quality of life and just general ability

[5:31] to enjoy their property.

[5:33] So staff took a look at this issue,

[5:37] and we identified some mitigation strategies that

[5:41] might help reduce the impact.

[5:43] Though I think we recognize that there's

[5:45] no one solution that's going to eliminate

[5:49] impact from the golf course.

[5:51] So we wanted to bring this to you

[5:52] this evening to have a conversation around what

[5:55] the concerns are and the research that we did,

[5:59] and talk about these mitigation strategies, because some of them

[6:04] do require capital investment, which

[6:06] will require council direction.

[6:11] So let's see this.

[6:13]

[6:18] All right.

[6:19] So just the we prepared a report that's included in your packet.

[6:26] It has much more detail around the background the data

[6:30] and the mitigation strategies.

[6:31] So this is a pretty high level.

[6:34] I just kind of wanted to go over some of the larger things

[6:36] to talk through that should help you

[6:39] in making decisions or giving some direction to staff

[6:42] on how we want to move forward with this.

[6:44] So I'll give you a little bit of background on what the resident

[6:47] concerns are related to the golf course,

[6:48] impacts the data and site evaluations that we did.

[6:53] We identified some near term as well as some long term

[6:56] mitigation strategies.

[6:57] And then at the end of this, we would

[6:58] like some direction from council on how we might move forward.

[7:03] So to start with how we got here, this issue,

[7:08] this netting request has been around since at least 2024,

[7:13] starting in 24.

[7:14] Residents at 1117 Berwick drive had contacted the town regarding

[7:18] property damage in the neighborhood,

[7:21] not just on their property but throughout the neighborhood,

[7:23] broken windows, vehicles, and siding damage as a couple

[7:27] examples that were included.

[7:28] They also provided a resident petition that specifically

[7:32] requested a protective netting along hole number 9,

[7:36] and at the time, we were just getting started on a tee box

[7:39] and irrigation project on the course

[7:43] that the tee box renovation adjusted the location of the tee

[7:50] box to try to reduce directional directional directional shift

[7:55] of the tee box to aim it further away from adjacent properties,

[7:59] not just hole number 9.

[8:00] All of our tee boxes went through that,

[8:01] so we're just starting that and we communicate

[8:03] that to the residents.

[8:04] In May 2025, residents from that neighborhood

[8:07] attended a town Hall meeting, again

[8:09] requesting protective netting along hole number 9.

[8:13] And at that time, we were just about done with that project.

[8:16] And so we advised that realignment project was nearing

[8:18] completion with the idea that the realignment would help

[8:23] reduce some of that impact that they

[8:25] were getting from the course.

[8:28] So that project was completed with the opening

[8:31] in June 2025, where the renovation project was done.

[8:35] And again, that hole number 9 was

[8:37] realigned to reduce that directional conflict

[8:40] with adjacent properties.

[8:42] Then fast forward to this year in April,

[8:44] I'll note that Dominion did significant again invasive

[8:47] removal along the wnod corridor, which

[8:51] did take out quite a bit of natural buffer

[8:53] that was in that area.

[8:55] We received a complaint from the resident at 1119 Berwick drive.

[8:59] We met with her on April 17 and requesting

[9:03] again a netting installation along a whole number 9.

[9:06] And at that point, we asked for two weeks

[9:10] to take a quick look at what the concerns were.

[9:13] And at the end of that, we asked to set up a community meeting

[9:16] with the residents, and we put together

[9:20] a internal cross-departmental team,

[9:21] take a look at what is the issue and take a more holistic view

[9:27] at the request, as well as what else

[9:29] we could do to try to help in this area.

[9:32] So we had that on site community meeting on June 24.

[9:36] We had a number of residents attend.

[9:38] I think 17 homes were represented, and at that time

[9:43] we shared information on the preliminary information

[9:46] that we had at the time, and received

[9:50] feedback from the residents on what they were experiencing.

[9:53] And from that point, we prepared the analysis

[9:55] that is included in your report and schedule

[9:57] this for work session.

[10:00] So let's talk a little bit about the data

[10:03] and what the data is saying.

[10:06] As a piece of information, we have

[10:08] about 48,000 rounds per year are played at the golf course.

[10:13] And I'll mention 2, I included in the report

[10:15] that we have what's called a good neighbor program.

[10:17] It's not necessarily insurance, but it's

[10:20] through our enterprise fund.

[10:24] But the people playing on the golf course

[10:26] are actually responsible for any damage that they do.

[10:29] However, it is very difficult to identify who those people

[10:33] are when the damage does occur.

[10:34] So the town provides this program

[10:37] to reimburse reimburse residents who

[10:41] have damage on their property from golf

[10:42] course, golf course play.

[10:44] Horseplay so with that said, on average we have

[10:48] about three claims per year.

[10:51] These aren't complaints or concerns

[10:54] around golf balls on property.

[10:56] These are claims that are submitted

[10:58] through the good neighbor program.

[10:59] So we have about three a year.

[11:00] There are around $1,000 each.

[11:03] So annually, we spend around $3,000

[11:06] to the good neighbor program.

[11:09] And in the area of hole number 9,

[11:12] we've had one claim that's currently pending.

[11:15] But at the time, and this is one claim

[11:21] since we started tracking that data starting in 2019,

[11:24] we have one claim.

[11:26] So we wanted to take a look to these areas

[11:28] that I've noted here, there again in more

[11:30] detail in the report, but we wanted to take a look

[11:33] at where claims are occurring.

[11:36] So what is the cost to the town for damages for due to active

[11:40] play on the course.

[11:42] What were the impacts of the vegetation removal

[11:45] along the course.

[11:46] What does the buffer do to help protect those properties.

[11:50] We wanted to take a look at the current health

[11:52] of our current buffer.

[11:54] On the course, we also looked at what's

[11:56] called the cone of safety.

[11:58] As it relates to hole number 9 and where average

[12:01] play would go in terms of shot trajectory.

[12:06] And we looked also somewhat at the trail and resident safety

[12:12] as it relates to active play.

[12:15] And we also looked at other things like wildlife

[12:17] activity and maintenance activities

[12:19] that could be displacing balls.

[12:20] We do have documentation of crows

[12:23] removing balls, relocating them, dropping them

[12:26] all over adjacent properties we have.

[12:29] So wildlife is definitely a factor

[12:31] in terms of how these balls might leave the course

[12:34] other than the active play.

[12:35] So we wanted to take a holistic look at what's

[12:38] actually happening here.

[12:42] The vegetation removal was relatively significant.

[12:47] They reduced quite a bit of natural buffer,

[12:50] which I have some photos to show you in a couple slides.

[12:52] We also noted that there's a gap in the buffer on the course

[12:55] around 150 yard marker at hole 9,

[12:59] which is across the trail between 1117 and 1119.

[13:04] So it's kind of right across within that cone of safety.

[13:07] So that is an area of concern that we saw.

[13:11] And the shot geometry, when we took a look at the shot

[13:13] geometry, we were doing it in terms of what is

[13:15] an average golfer going to do.

[13:17] And that data showed us that they would have

[13:22] to have quite a significant deviation

[13:25] offline to get it outside the cone of safety

[13:28] onto those adjacent properties.

[13:31] And that is I'm not we never we're

[13:34] not saying that it never happens because never

[13:38] is a very strong word.

[13:39] Onward, but the likelihood is very low

[13:42] that is what's that is how the golf

[13:45] balls are exiting the course.

[13:47] So the data does show that active play is not

[13:51] necessarily the primary source of what those neighbors are

[13:55] experiencing.

[13:57] Again, I mentioned the wildlife and then the trail safety.

[14:00] That has been a concern.

[14:01] That's been brought up several times.

[14:03] Our look into that is that yes, there is no records.

[14:07] Not saying it can't happen, but when you look at movement

[14:10] on the trail, movement of the ball and the shot geometry,

[14:14] it is a very low likelihood that there

[14:16] is going to be personal injury, at least along the trail

[14:23] due to active play.

[14:25] Again, not saying it can't happen, just saying

[14:27] it's a lower probability.

[14:30] When did we build the golf course or when was it opened.

[14:33] 70s have we ever had.

[14:36] I haven't.

[14:38] None of the records indicate that based on what we have.

[14:42]

[14:45] So in short, again, what the data is telling

[14:48] us is that a majority of the golf balls that are being found

[14:51] on neighboring properties are likely

[14:53] not the result of active play.

[14:55] And I think this context is relevant as we think about both

[14:59] what the town's exposure and the appropriate mitigation

[15:01] strategies that we can use to try to help

[15:04] reduce that impact on our neighbors.

[15:06]

[15:10] All right.

[15:10] So just a couple photos.

[15:12] These are from the report.

[15:13] I wanted to go a little bit more in depth.

[15:15] There's the cone of safety that I mentioned.

[15:19] It is a.

[15:22] It is a standard architectural model

[15:25] that is used when developing golf courses to a lot of times

[15:29] it's used around the perimeter to make sure

[15:30] that how the course is set up is not impacting

[15:35] neighboring properties.

[15:38] But it essentially follows the center line and extends 200 Off

[15:42] and you can see it kind of lands somewhere in the easement there

[15:47] in that tree line, right across between one 1119 and 1117.

[15:54] And I will note that gap that I mentioned earlier

[15:56] is in that area as well.

[15:59] And there is that tree line is a little thin.

[16:02] So I'll just note that it's the tree line, as you can see,

[16:05] is thicker up toward the tee boxes

[16:07] and it thins out the further you go down.

[16:12] And that gap is used by Dominion to access the utility

[16:15] from the golf course.

[16:16] So there's some work to be done with Dominion on that one.

[16:21] I also wanted to note, we did a little bit of a heat

[16:24] map to identify where we're seeing filed claims.

[16:28] These aren't complaints about golf balls.

[16:30] These are actual claims filed through the neighbor

[16:32] good neighbor program.

[16:34] As you can see, a lot of our claims

[16:36] are up at the Herndon community center.

[16:39] Cars in the parking lot and then also up on Crestview

[16:43] drive near that 7-eleven.

[16:46] We have had communications with a neighbor.

[16:48] I think it's hole number 6.

[16:50] He's a Fairfax County resident.

[16:52] We've had communications with them,

[16:53] and we've also had communications

[16:54] with the Montessori school.

[16:57] We actually do have a netting system over there.

[16:59] It's about 100 yards or sorry, hundreds linear feet.

[17:06] So we do have an editing system over there for that.

[17:09]

[17:13] All right.

[17:14] And I also wanted to show a little bit of the impact

[17:16] that we're seeing with the vegetation removal

[17:18] along the wnod.

[17:19] I know everybody here probably walks.

[17:20] So you don't already know what I'm talking about,

[17:23] but the picture at the top is Berwick drive.

[17:26] One nine 1119 is over, kind of closest

[17:30] to the camera on the left.

[17:33] You can see that's the vegetation from 2022.

[17:36] Pretty high.

[17:37] Now when you look at the bottom one, that's the same position.

[17:40] In July of 26, quite a reduction in the amount of buffer

[17:44] that was available previously.

[17:47] And then in the center there is we have been in contact

[17:52] with Dominion and Nova parks talking through this issue

[17:56] and what we can do.

[17:58] And I believe the neighbor at 1119 is also in communication.

[18:05] But they have a replanting plan to plant.

[18:07] Quite a number of trees in that general area

[18:10] is a little bit on the slope.

[18:12] They did plant it.

[18:13] None of it survived.

[18:14] So they are going to come back and replant all of that

[18:17] this fall.

[18:18] But that is the level of replanting

[18:20] that we're aware of right now that Dominion

[18:22] is going to be doing.

[18:23]

[18:26] And then on the right, you'll see that's the gap

[18:29] I was talking about.

[18:30] That's a picture.

[18:31] It's near the 150 yard line on hole number 9.

[18:35] But again, it's right there in that cone of safety

[18:37] right across from 1117 1119.

[18:42] But that's where Dominion access is.

[18:45] Was there always a step or was there vegetation before.

[18:47] I think there's always been a gap based on my conversation

[18:51] with Mike, the golf manager.

[18:55] That's how Dominion gets.

[18:57] We'd have to have some conversation with them

[18:58] about that.

[19:01] So let's talk a little bit about a couple different mitigation

[19:04] strategies.

[19:05] These are some short and mid-term things that we can do.

[19:09] They don't necessarily have immediate impact

[19:11] but they'll have a longer term impact.

[19:13] One of those is the Dominion replanting along the road.

[19:17] We are aware that they are coming back this fall,

[19:21] at the end of this month, to do more invasive spraying

[19:24] along the wnod corridor.

[19:27] We staff is communicating with them

[19:30] on what the replanting plan is.

[19:32] We don't have that information other than that one

[19:35] section behind 1119 that we do know

[19:37] that they're going to be doing.

[19:40] So I think so we want to continue to work

[19:45] with Dominion and Nova parks.

[19:47] We have a really good relationship with Nova parks.

[19:48] They are very amenable to plantings and vegetation

[19:53] and beautification along the corridor.

[19:55] So assuming whatever we do has to be in accordance

[20:00] with Dominion and their transmission lines,

[20:02] but they're very more open, I think,

[20:04] than they have been in the past to doing

[20:06] some improvements along there.

[20:08] The town can choose to add some additional vegetation

[20:12] along that corridor behind Berwick drive residences.

[20:18] We could basically replicate what they're doing behind

[20:20] 1119 and extend that beyond is around

[20:23] 27 to $30,000 to get down to.

[20:26] I want to say it's 1113, but essentially, it's about

[20:31] $10,000 per property.

[20:33] If we wanted to do plantings, basically

[20:36] replicate the plantings that are going by 1119.

[20:39] I put fall, I'm not sure if we'll be able to do fall,

[20:42] really just depends on council direction and timing

[20:46] and what we're able to accomplish.

[20:48] Fall is obviously the best time to do

[20:49] it because you have plantings in the spring, they didn't survive.

[20:52] So we also want to look at closing that vegetation gap

[20:56] at the 150 yard marker.

[20:58] There might be balls that are exiting through that.

[21:01] It's pretty clear.

[21:03] And that goes along with number four

[21:05] there where there's some opportunity to add to our tree

[21:07] line there, especially where it got a little thinner further

[21:10] down as some vegetation to help create more of a buffer

[21:14] in that general area.

[21:15] That's around 6,000 to $15,000, depending on how

[21:19] many trees size of the trees.

[21:20] We can, depending on how much we can

[21:23] do, more or less, depending on how much

[21:26] we want to do in that area.

[21:28] And then we also talked internally about course signage.

[21:31] There's very little communication

[21:33] about the golfers responsibility for damage on the course.

[21:39] And so our communications team has been working with our golf

[21:42] team to come up with signage for that location,

[21:45] as well as communicate that out and basically

[21:47] say there are neighbors, be mindful of that

[21:50] as you're playing the course.

[21:52] That is an operational thing.

[21:54] We will likely just do that.

[21:56] I don't that's easily enough to be implemented.

[22:02] All of these things, other than the signage,

[22:04] are going to take time to grow and be beneficial.

[22:08] So I recognize that while we can take some action now,

[22:12] the benefit of that is going to take some time to develop.

[22:16] So just give you.

[22:17] So I talked about the signage, just to give you

[22:19] an idea of where we're talking about putting signage,

[22:21] the language we're talking about using.

[22:23] And then this is showing the kind of just a really quick what

[22:29] they're planting behind 1119 and then replicating that along

[22:34] the 30,000 that I mentioned.

[22:38] Yeah it gets to I think that's 1113.

[22:42] So if you want to if the council wants to go beyond that,

[22:44] it's another 10,000 per.

[22:47] And again, this is kind of on the slope.

[22:49] It kind of slopes down.

[22:50] So it's not like right on the trail

[22:52] but just kind of on the edge there.

[22:56] So then let's talk about the netting solution,

[22:58] which was a specific request from the residents.

[23:00] And so we wanted to make sure we take a look at this

[23:03] and see what makes the most sense in this area.

[23:08] So again, while the data is not really saying that active tee

[23:13] shots are what is active play is what is exiting

[23:17] is not the main source.

[23:20] It is likely happening to some level.

[23:22] It's going through the tree line and impacting

[23:26] the impacting the residents.

[23:29] So a couple key points I wanted to point out

[23:31] was the existing tree canopy in that area is around 75.

[23:35] The 60 foot netting that we're including, as in there would be

[23:41] shorter than portions of that.

[23:43] So again, the netting is really for going through,

[23:46] not over not over the tree canopy.

[23:50] If we were to increase it to 80 feet

[23:53] would be just above that tree line.

[23:56] Anything over 60 feet is going to require significant amount

[23:59] of engineering, which increases that price to around 1.2

[24:03] to $1.3 million.

[24:05] So same distance, 450 linear feet at feet, goes

[24:09] from 146,000 to 1.2 million.

[24:14] And then again, no netting solution is going

[24:17] to eliminate all errant balls.

[24:20] But we do believe that the 450 linear feet.

[24:25] Will cover.

[24:28] Most active T shots that are coming where they land

[24:34] is likely to catch most of those because I

[24:38] mean you have to have a strong drive to even get that distance.

[24:42] Yeah I mean, it can happen.

[24:43] And we talked a lot too, about advancements in technology

[24:47] with clubs and balls, and they're going farther

[24:49] and they're going higher, which is why we were talking

[24:52] to the contractor about 80 feet, because feet

[24:55] used to be the standard.

[24:56] Now it's really feet.

[24:58] So it's a question of yeah, we were trying to figure out

[25:03] what the minimum solution is.

[25:04] That would have the greatest impact.

[25:07] That made the most sense in terms of meeting,

[25:09] meeting that need.

[25:11] And I will say these are really rough costs.

[25:13] Assume they are going to be including the vegetation.

[25:16] We were trying to get real rough numbers so that we could have

[25:18] this conversation and get direction,

[25:20] but it's likely going to be much more than this.

[25:25] I would imagine the I would imagine more of the vegetation

[25:31] and the fencing is probably going to if you do a combination

[25:34] around 250, it would be my guess is probably

[25:36] more realistic depending.

[25:39] So really rough numbers just to make sure we're

[25:42] all aware of that.

[25:43] Can you explain the engineering part while you're here.

[25:46] If the feet I'll do my best.

[25:48] So I had assistance in this, but because of wind shear,

[25:53] all of that and you have to go deeper and there's different.

[25:59] Poles yeah.

[26:00] Poles and it's just it's a different level of engineering

[26:03] that's required for that same netting or different

[26:06] netting for the material.

[26:09] And I'm not sure I didn't go that deep.

[26:11] All I know is that it is escalated significantly because

[26:17] of the height, and I don't even know if Dominion would

[26:19] be OK with feet right there.

[26:21] That's another conversation to be had now because it's not

[26:25] underneath it, but it's close.

[26:26] So we again, this would have to be a conversation with Dominion

[26:30] on what their comfort level is with netting

[26:33] in that general area.

[26:34] It's not in their easement we're talking

[26:36] about on the course property, but feet of pole

[26:39] could hit maybe I don't know.

[26:41]

[26:44] So with that said, I wanted to give you an idea

[26:47] of what we're talking about.

[26:48] So we kind started here.

[26:49] Again, this is kind of based off the cone of safety,

[26:51] where the shot geometry is and what we think the best what

[26:57] is going to catch most of the shots that

[27:01] would the errant shots that would exit.

[27:04] And so this is 450.

[27:07] And when we quoted between 350 which is here and 450,

[27:13] it's not a huge price difference.

[27:16] So it probably makes sense to go to the 450.

[27:20] If the netting solution is the direction we go.

[27:23] At the community meeting, we've gotten some feedback

[27:26] about concerns about not going the full distance

[27:30] and whether these properties would be protected.

[27:32] Again, because of the shot geometry and the safety,

[27:35] majority of errant shots that are going through the tree line

[27:39] will likely be caught by this.

[27:40] But if council did want to go, the full is around $250,000

[27:44] or so at the 60 foot height, and again,

[27:48] 450 at feet is going to be around 1.2 million,

[27:52] just because of all the engineering requirements that

[27:54] are going to be needed there.

[27:55]

[27:58] So with that said, with those, I did a real high level briefing.

[28:02] Again, there's quite more information in detail

[28:06] in the report, but I wanted to give you

[28:10] two options to think about, one being vegetation

[28:12] signage and master plan.

[28:15] Adding some canopy and evergreen trees

[28:18] to the golf course side of things,

[28:20] filling that gap where that exists.

[28:23] Talking to Dominion and Nova parks

[28:24] about how we can supplement further

[28:26] to create more of a barrier of vegetation barrier.

[28:29] Again, these are we can put them in now,

[28:32] but it's going to take some time to get the full impact

[28:36] from that signage.

[28:38] We can do that relatively quickly.

[28:41] We are starting a master planning effort,

[28:45] and I mentioned earlier that we had

[28:46] some conversations with some of our neighbors,

[28:49] and we have higher incidences of.

[28:53]

[28:57] Impacts at on other areas like Crestview

[29:01] and the community center.

[29:05] And so the thought would be to include this

[29:08] as part of a larger master planning effort

[29:11] to take a look at the course's impact on neighboring properties

[29:14] and where do we need to realign tee boxes again.

[29:17] Do we need to shift our course more.

[29:19] As we look at a more comprehensive level,

[29:22] as opposed to a case by case, which is currently what we're

[29:25] doing, not just with this, but also the resident that we

[29:28] had in the Montessori school.

[29:30] We're kind of dealing with them on a case by case basis.

[29:33] So the idea would be to do vegetation, do some things now

[29:37] and partnership, but look at this more holistically

[29:41] about what we can do in the master planning process,

[29:44] and then just continue to be engaged with the residents

[29:46] there after we put the vegetation, see how it's going.

[29:49] We have very little data from that area.

[29:53] So keeping that communication and finding

[29:55] out what they're experiencing.

[29:57] So that cost is around 33 to 45, again,

[29:59] depending on how much vegetation we want to do, at least

[30:02] from the town's perspective.

[30:04] The sign is operational.

[30:05] And then we have the master plan funded in the CIP for this year.

[30:10] Again, the timing is just dependent on the weather

[30:15] and how we move on this.

[30:17] Option 2 includes the signage and vegetation from option one.

[30:23] As well as the minimum netting system, which we're saying

[30:25] is 450 linear feet at 60 feet in height.

[30:29] We do think this is likely the minimum span that would be

[30:34] needed to address the highest probability corridor there

[30:39] for any balls that might be leaving

[30:40] the course through active play.

[30:43] Again, just mentioning the 75 foot canopy.

[30:46] So it's not going to catch things going over.

[30:48] It's going to catch things going through.

[30:50] And again, maintaining that relationship with the residents

[30:53] and continuing to track and see how it's going that cost with

[30:58] the vegetation and the netting is somewhere

[31:00] between 180 and 200,000.

[31:04] This would require either if we wanted to do it this year,

[31:07] we'd need a budget Amendment for FY 28,

[31:09] or it could be a future CIP request.

[31:12] And I'll note all of this would come

[31:13] out of the golf course enterprise

[31:14] fund, not the general fund.

[31:17] So just as a piece of information.

[31:20] So I will stop there and I'm happy to answer any questions.

[31:25] Questions from council.

[31:26] Yes, sir.

[31:27] Thank you, Mr. mayor.

[31:28] And thank you for that update.

[31:31] So does that mean I'm trying to avoid

[31:35] the budget special request is bonding out of the possible ones

[31:42] here for that amount.

[31:43] For that cost.

[31:44] Yeah it wouldn't make sense to.

[31:48] Well, how about we do this because I looked at this.

[31:51] I mean, look, if we're going to do is we should do it.

[31:53] Well, the one point I think the most I'm

[31:56] not talking about the 1.2 mill option,

[31:58] I'm talking about the 750.

[32:01] If you look at well, first of all, let's go back to slide 7.

[32:06] So I was with you.

[32:10] In combining I had combined.

[32:15] See, number one is never going to happen.

[32:17] I don't think we look at, for Dominion

[32:21] to entertain any additional cost burden for our residents.

[32:24] That's just my personal opinion.

[32:26] But if we're combining 2, 4 and 5 and then slide 9,

[32:34] we go to option on the full.

[32:37] If I'm reading that full 700 foot span,

[32:42] does that amount and then make it more amenable to a bond

[32:48] versus no, it's actually probably too

[32:50] small to include into a bond.

[32:53] If it was, we wouldn't go out for an amount that small.

[32:59] We could go out for something larger would make more sense.

[33:05] But I think the big question there is the effectiveness

[33:09] of 60 versus feet.

[33:11] Kirsten kind of referenced the fact that 60 might help a few

[33:17] of the already small number.

[33:20] 80 is what the standard would be for especially for homes

[33:25] this far away from the golf course.

[33:27] 80 is probably the bare minimum.

[33:29] We need to have some degree of effect on the already small

[33:34] number of balls that are entering that way due to play,

[33:39] and you can't really do 60 and see

[33:41] what happens, because it's still going to cost you to read

[33:45] the whole thing, to do it all.

[33:47] Yeah well, exactly.

[33:49] But then I think the cost benefit of 1.25 million versus

[33:56] just the paying for the five claims we get

[34:00] each year at about $1,000 each.

[34:04] It's a taxpayer question, of course,

[34:07] that council's unfortunately equate this again to tax

[34:12] rate 1.2 million.

[34:17] Well, it's about a penny for the 250 option.

[34:21] I believe it's about two 5,250 penny on the road.

[34:26] That's about four or five pennies in tax.

[34:28] I know in this case, it's coming from golf course.

[34:30] But just to equate it in our minds,

[34:32] if it was coming from tax rate, that's about a penny on the tax

[34:36] rate and maintenance.

[34:38] Even if we borrowed for the 1.2, you're going to pay

[34:42] debt service of about a penny.

[34:44]

[34:48] And quite a penny.

[34:49] I'll mention two.

[34:50] I mean half a penny every year.

[34:53] Well I'm sorry.

[34:54] Continue your thought.

[34:55] So that's why I wanted to have that discussion,

[34:58] because most people, it's more palatable to have.

[35:04] They can understand half a penny of debt services.

[35:07] Choices We just cut spring fall trash pickup

[35:12] because we couldn't find a couple hundred thousand dollars.

[35:14] So that's why I think.

[35:16] Sorry, this is just me, guys.

[35:18] Yeah please.

[35:19] I think it would make more sense for me to address.

[35:22] And by the way, I put this under,

[35:25] if we go the strategic plan under good governance, right.

[35:33] Let me just read it because I was reading here's

[35:35] the justification, right.

[35:37] Heritage government provides effective and efficient

[35:39] community centered services and programs that are focused

[35:42] on improving quality of life.

[35:44] This is clearly one of those things.

[35:46] So it aligns with our strategic vision.

[35:49] It aligns with good governance, and half a penny is more

[35:54] palatable for a lot of people.

[35:57] You'll get people well, you're raising a penny

[36:01] or a penny half, do this, do that, I think that.

[36:06] And plus we have triple-a bond rating.

[36:09] I mean, just.

[36:10] So yeah, I mean, again, it's just a matter of crunching

[36:15] the numbers a bit as to what good governance would cost

[36:20] relative to the actual impact.

[36:23] So even if we quadrupled the number of claims

[36:27] that we were getting for damage, we

[36:31] get about a year, roughly three a year in 50 years.

[36:37] We've never had an incident of somebody

[36:39] being I get that, I get that, but there's a human element.

[36:45] So if you live there, I'm sure you talk to the folks.

[36:49] It's a different quality of life issue.

[36:54] It is.

[36:54] That's why we're putting it at your feet.

[36:56] Because it's a policy decision that staff

[37:01] are not going to make because it doesn't pencil out

[37:05] to the actual damage or risk.

[37:08] If we've got an issue that's generating a handful of claims

[37:13] a year, a $1.2 milliosmole solution,

[37:19] we won't get to $1.2 million of taxpayer funds

[37:25] for the life of the golf course, like we pay out.

[37:29] We have so few claims for this now.

[37:32] Claims are damaged.

[37:34] Not just hey, I found a ball in my yard.

[37:37] If someone's got a ball in their yard,

[37:38] it's not damage that's going to happen from time to time,

[37:41] but actual instances where it has caused damage

[37:45] are very small.

[37:48] Has anyone ever been hurt by one of these before.

[37:51] Not in 50 years of that golf course.

[37:53] There's no record of that.

[37:55] Plus, millions of people live on or around golf courses

[37:59] and pay a premium to do that all over the world.

[38:02] No one's getting hurt by these things.

[38:05] I got hit by a baseball.

[38:07] You got about a 1 Q&A if you are in or around living near a golf

[38:11] course, I think the stat is you've got

[38:13] about a one in 250,000 chance of getting hit by a hurricane.

[38:19] Jesus I not saying it can't happen.

[38:21] No one still means there's a chance.

[38:23] Of course.

[38:24] And most of the research that I found on golf course injuries

[38:26] was on the golf course, like through play.

[38:29] I mean, they put netting on baseball

[38:32] stands for the fan experience.

[38:34] If you're saying like near the dugout.

[38:36] I haven't seen more like I could only think of Wrigley Field

[38:40] where they just like, let it the balls travel out the stadium

[38:44] the few chances that it does.

[38:46] But again, I think about the safety.

[38:49] I mean, they put up safety for a reason

[38:52] so people won't get hit with baseballs.

[38:54] I don't it could be, someone hits a golf ball

[38:58] and hits one of these poor residents in the head,

[39:00] and now we have a serious issue now.

[39:03] Yes if it ever happened.

[39:05] If it.

[39:06] Yes I'm just saying, hypothetically speaking,

[39:08] I would say I've not heard of any story.

[39:10] That's why I mentioned somebody getting killed.

[39:13] I mean, I think that's why I mentioned that we can't

[39:17] eliminate even if we put a NetApp, that could still

[39:21] that probability still exists, that a golf ball can exit

[39:25] the course and hit somebody.

[39:28] But yeah, and even putting a NetApp is not going to eliminate

[39:35] golf balls ending up in the residents property

[39:39] because there are other things happening like the wildlife is

[39:43] real thing that is moving.

[39:46] But I have a question.

[39:47] So in your slide, you said that it was like one claim,

[39:49] but in our email that we received,

[39:51] it seems like there was like two instances

[39:54] already where people had their windows broken.

[39:58] We haven't gotten a claim submitted.

[40:00] We've provided the information, but there's

[40:03] no claims submitted to them.

[40:05] So go ahead.

[40:06] No go ahead.

[40:06] No yeah.

[40:08] There are.

[40:11] We know of we do have the one pending claim that's recent.

[40:15] And we do have one from Crestview,

[40:19] which was a legitimate claim.

[40:22] That's the recent 1 over 5.

[40:24] I don't know that one.

[40:26] The guy who talked to his house.

[40:28] Oh, that's hole six.

[40:29] Yeah hole six.

[40:30] I'm sorry.

[40:30] That's right.

[40:31] So they do happen from time to time.

[40:34] We pay for that.

[40:35] We cover all the costs associated with if someone's

[40:38] window, because that does happen in the parking lot of

[40:40] the community center regularly.

[40:43] Yeah and when I say regularly, it's.

[40:45] And we're working off the information we have.

[40:47] I mean, I think you hit the nail on the head

[40:49] talking about quality of life.

[40:51] They are experiencing golf balls in their property.

[40:53] No doubt about that.

[40:54] It is happening.

[40:56] How they get there.

[40:57] That's where we're unsure.

[40:59] And the damaged part.

[41:02] When you're talking about the investment

[41:04] on the course for this issue in terms of the people using

[41:10] the trail and the 10 or so homes specifically along the trail

[41:14] there, you have to that's what we're looking at, which is why

[41:17] we're bringing it is so it's a balance of stewardship

[41:20] and governance and community.

[41:23] I mean, we want to be responsive to the residents, which

[41:26] is why we're trying to come up with some lower cost things

[41:29] that we can get in faster.

[41:32] You mentioned the tee boxes.

[41:34] Have we also in particular this hole.

[41:37] The hole is usually right.

[41:41] Go back to if you don't mind the picture of the.

[41:44] So the flag and the hole are usually more

[41:47] on the side towards the wnod.

[41:50] Have we thought about shifting that.

[41:54] Yeah go.

[41:55] Oh no.

[41:56] Nope yeah.

[41:57] You're right, I'm sorry.

[41:58] Well, the boxes are here.

[41:59] Like this is the.

[42:00] Yeah, that's the tee box.

[42:01] And we shifted the tee boxes a little

[42:03] bit to point go to the green.

[42:07] Sorry the.

[42:08] Yeah so have we thought about shifting that over.

[42:13] So not only the tee box.

[42:14] But then we direct the golfer.

[42:16] And again it's never going to completely stop because you

[42:19] can have a crazy person.

[42:20] But that's why I play master planning effort.

[42:23] I mean there's funding that could be used to install

[42:28] a netting solution, but if that's not necessarily 1.2

[42:33] million, but the golf plan, the master planning effort is

[42:38] to look at the whole course and what

[42:40] we want to do with the course and how it should be aligned.

[42:44] And that's why in that suggestion,

[42:46] we're talking about looking holistically at it,

[42:49] because the gentleman on hole 6 also wants a netting solution.

[42:52] We have a netting solution over were already at Montessori.

[42:56] That one's only feet tall.

[42:59] So it was.

[42:59] It's only 100 linear feet.

[43:01] Feet tall.

[43:01] So it was a relatively low cost.

[43:04] But that's been there like 20 years, I think.

[43:07] But that was the idea, was looking at the course

[43:10] and seeing if there's more realignment to help alleviate

[43:15] some of this interaction.

[43:17] Yeah That's longer term.

[43:19] So again, that's the balance.

[43:22] They've been dealing with this for quite a while.

[43:25] I don't think that's a bad long term solution.

[43:29] But I mean, you're talking about remapping

[43:32] re-engineering basically a larger effort for sure.

[43:35] Are there any other vendors that you guys looked at into,

[43:38] like for nets and stuff like that,

[43:39] or is this just one specific one.

[43:41] No, we had a few.

[43:42] It's and it's not hard to get those numbers.

[43:45] Mike Miller out of the golf course has his association.

[43:49] All of the golf courses municipal golf courses.

[43:52] They have I think there's an association for them.

[43:54] In fact, they all share information and data that's

[43:58] about to go and price for it.

[43:59] And again, those nets, you see, let's say around a Top Golf

[44:03] or whatever out by the highway.

[44:05] Those I mean that's millions of dollars

[44:08] worth of netting because it's got to be wind rated engineered.

[44:11] You got to go down super deep.

[44:13] And if we were to move forward, we'd have

[44:15] to do an RFP process anyway.

[44:16] And do a purchase through purchasing.

[44:20] And we can assume that these nets can guarantee to protect

[44:24] the ball if it goes through it.

[44:26] Correct it's just that it's over that it becomes a problem.

[44:31] We at 60 feet, you're probably going to could

[44:33] still get some that go over it.

[44:35] So I couldn't say it would be definitely

[44:37] help with the completely affected

[44:39] if it were to hit the net and hit the net.

[44:41] The net should stop it.

[44:42] Yeah for sure.

[44:43] That's what I'm thinking here, is

[44:44] that if we go with the Bush treaty option,

[44:47] that it wouldn't necessarily.

[44:49] It'll take time.

[44:51] It will it'll take some time.

[44:52] Yeah, it would take definitely a little bit of time there.

[44:56] And then the trees would grow.

[44:57] So yeah.

[44:58] Yeah that's what I mean.

[44:59] It's not an immediate thing, but I

[45:02] did want to mention on the netting

[45:03] it's about 10 to 15 years.

[45:05] And there probably have to be some replacement

[45:07] just as a maintenance piece of maintenance information.

[45:12] Probably just the netting.

[45:12] Not necessarily stay within the general fund,

[45:14] never in the operating in the office.

[45:17] We would try to make this.

[45:18] The golf course covers the cost.

[45:20] So we would try to use the reserves of the golf course

[45:24] or yeah, future revenues.

[45:27] If we do a 50 year I'm sorry.

[45:30] If we do the master plan, that's a master

[45:32] plan to look out over the course of a few decades of these.

[45:37] This is the kind of thing that would

[45:39] be discussed in the course of that as a major infrastructure

[45:41] improvement.

[45:42] Yes and I know we already, at the golf course

[45:44] have significant needs related to the clubhouse

[45:49] and in the cart.

[45:51] The cart barn.

[45:52] So it's very possible that we may at some point

[45:56] end up bonding for all of those things,

[45:59] but we'd be bonding against the revenue

[46:00] that comes off the golf course.

[46:02] So it wouldn't impact our general fund.

[46:04] But it's not an enterprise fund expense.

[46:08] Yeah, it still is.

[46:10] But the debt service, the debt service

[46:13] is paid for by the enterprise.

[46:14] OK yeah.

[46:16] But we could still bond.

[46:17] Yeah, yeah.

[46:18] Bond enterprise funds.

[46:20] Yeah we've got our credit limit to not we don't go above to.

[46:24] So we don't threaten our triple-a golf course has I don't

[46:28] it's not rated like we are.

[46:30] But it would basically we would go out

[46:33] and borrow money based on the revenue

[46:34] coming off the golf course.

[46:36] So it doesn't hit against our debt capacity.

[46:38] And it could depending on where we go.

[46:40] I mean, it could impact user fee rates depending

[46:42] on what solution we do.

[46:44] And like I said, the areas that we have high incidence of claims

[46:49] is up here and down here.

[46:51] We've added trees along here to try to do something about that.

[46:55] Yeah so there's other areas we need to look at as it

[46:58] relates to adjacent impacts.

[47:02] So I get the master plan, how quickly we look at the perimeter

[47:07] and assess those issues and get something more

[47:11] comprehensive than this one.

[47:15] Because if we're going to do something right, yeah,

[47:19] we need to know what that cost is.

[47:21] And that one on the right.

[47:22] How many years is that.

[47:25] This one.

[47:26] Yeah well no, no, for the whole Mike

[47:28] I see your hand up will come to you.

[47:29] Sorry 2019 to today.

[47:33] So yeah about a year seven years and we worth of claims.

[47:39] And we do suspect there might be some underreporting depending

[47:43] on whose cars are being damaged so

[47:45] that there could be stuff happening

[47:46] that we're just not aware of.

[47:48]

[47:51] How often does that happen.

[47:53] The way the residents.

[47:54] Just so it's hard to say.

[47:58] It's hard to say if normally if there is damage involved

[48:01] and someone will someone will find a way to contact about it.

[48:04] I mean, I can definitely imagine the community center

[48:07] because the whole one is about whole,

[48:10] and I try not to park in the front, park in the back.

[48:14] That's why I always see it empty.

[48:16] I'm like, man, this could be something.

[48:18] Mike has a question, I believe.

[48:20] Mike thank you.

[48:24] What is the yardage on hole 9.

[48:26]

[48:30] Pull it up real quick.

[48:30] It should be on mine.

[48:31] Yeah, I don't know.

[48:33] I know it, but I don't know it.

[48:36] Is it a par 3 or par 4.

[48:38] It's a par 4.

[48:39] Yeah OK.

[48:42] I cannot get there in three.

[48:45] He took off.

[48:46] That is it.

[48:48] Once it's over, it's.

[48:51] It's over 400, I believe.

[48:53] They told me and I don't remember.

[48:55] Yeah because that if your line right

[48:57] there is at the 200 yard mark.

[49:00] Yeah because the 150 yard marker is before those trees.

[49:06] Just after the ditch.

[49:08] My reason for asking.

[49:10] Yeah, it's like right here.

[49:10] It's a par 4.

[49:11] There's less that you could do about it, but is there any.

[49:15] I was just thinking, if there's a way to shorten the hole

[49:17] and make it 150 yard par 3 and just move the tee box up

[49:22] to that upper right hand corner that's

[49:25] in the middle of the fairway.

[49:27] And if shortening the hole actually also

[49:31] takes care of some of the problem.

[49:33] Yeah well that's something definitely

[49:34] something could be looked at as part of the master plan.

[49:36] That's probably not a viable that's

[49:38] probably not a viable option.

[49:40] So that's why I asked.

[49:42] Well we've had some internal conversation about the course

[49:47] and as part of the master planning,

[49:49] like could we make it more.

[49:51] Par 3 as opposed to par 4 to try to reduce some of that impact

[49:55] on certain holes.

[49:56] But again, that's long term.

[49:57] It is long term.

[49:58] All of these are a lot of this is long term.

[50:00] Yes so are we.

[50:02] And they're going to be whatever social

[50:04] will have to be multifaceted.

[50:05] Like if we need trees which we're

[50:08] going they need to go in now.

[50:10] So yeah at some point they'll be larger.

[50:13] Better time would have been 20 years ago.

[50:14] But we can't get that back.

[50:15] So today the trees are nuts.

[50:20] It could be both.

[50:21] I think we need both.

[50:23] So I think it's going to be a combination of something.

[50:26] But I personally would like to know the full span of what we

[50:30] might need to do with perimeter, knowing

[50:32] that there may be other things that we do inside the course.

[50:34]

[50:38] You could disagree with.

[50:39] No, I'm aligned with that.

[50:42] All those things I can bring back in the course

[50:43] of the budget discussion.

[50:45] We can look at it as part of that.

[50:47] Yeah because we would need.

[50:48] We would definitely need an Amendment at a minimum.

[50:52] And if I did it, I couldn't do it this year.

[50:57] What kind of reserves do we have in the enterprise.

[51:00] It's healthy.

[51:01] Yeah, it's pretty healthy.

[51:02] I don't know exactly, but it's also I mean,

[51:05] we couldn't use it all on this.

[51:09] We don't have that kind of I mean,

[51:10] we have funding for the master planning.

[51:14] So if we wanted to maybe do a more specific look

[51:19] at the perimeter piece, we might be

[51:21] able to use some of that already budgeted funding for that,

[51:23] because we haven't quite launched

[51:24] the master planning effort yet.

[51:26] So we need to talk about scope.

[51:28] So that could be something we could do

[51:30] because that funding is there.

[51:32] We wanted to get somebody to help.

[51:34]

[51:37] Kelvin, you have a question or comment.

[51:41] And so the netting.

[51:45] So like the size of the netting.

[51:47] So if you were to put trees and netting how much would

[51:51] that actually cost.

[51:53] So that would be the 80 or the 60.

[51:57] The 80.

[51:58] It has to be 80.

[52:00] Yeah 80 foot.

[52:01] That's like 1.2 over with the trees.

[52:05] It'd be close to 1.5, 3.0.

[52:08] So the feet is it's because of the height and the engineering

[52:12] and how deep you got to go and the types of poles, it just.

[52:16] Yeah, it's a little more I thought

[52:18] it would be like some cutoff like, OK, we'll use I don't 450

[52:22] and then the rest trees everywhere.

[52:23] Well OK.

[52:24] That's a good point.

[52:25] What I'm quoting is from here to 450.

[52:28] And if you wanted to say, do 200, that would reduce it.

[52:34] But if there's another variation,

[52:37] it's just we were trying to catch.

[52:40] It's hard to say where the balls are coming from

[52:42] and how they're exiting the course.

[52:44] And so we wanted to try to get because I would hate

[52:46] to invest that much and miss the spot

[52:50] that they're exiting through.

[52:54] Yeah and realistically, we should get Dominion to tell us.

[52:59] Yeah, we need before we go too far.

[53:02] We need to know what it's not permissible power lines,

[53:05] but it's close.

[53:06] So there's an easement on that.

[53:08] But we're talking about putting it on our side.

[53:10] But if the pole came down right there they might still.

[53:14] So we'd have to work with them on what's it 50 or 100 foot

[53:20] by default. They have is feet.

[53:23] Is the easement feet.

[53:24] And like I said, they have access point.

[53:28] I want to say it's right around here.

[53:31]

[53:33] To get into their utilities from the course.

[53:36] So we'd we were talking about doing

[53:39] netting where it's stops here.

[53:40] And then there's a section that starts here so they can get in.

[53:45] So we definitely have to coordinate.

[53:47] We were talking about that with the trees too.

[53:49] How do you layer it to where they can still

[53:51] get a vehicle in or confirm that they even

[53:54] need that access right there.

[53:55] I'm not entirely sure why they have

[53:58] it, so that we could be able to get in short order to the trees.

[54:02] No, the Dominion Power information.

[54:05] Yeah, we can work with them if the netting solution is

[54:10] something you all would like to see more information on,

[54:14] we can get some more information.

[54:18] If you're thinking of sectioning,

[54:22] I would want to have somebody like more informed on golf

[54:27] courses.

[54:27] So yeah, of course, help with that

[54:29] to identify what would be the best location for that

[54:33] if we're going to invest in, let's

[54:36] say Dominion is OK with feet.

[54:39] So what phase.

[54:43] So if we broke this up into phases with the limited budgets,

[54:49] what could we get done sooner.

[54:53] And what does that look like in terms of here's

[54:56] the total solution phase.

[54:59] Vegetative planning could go in first because that's yeah,

[55:02] we could do on our property vegetation

[55:05] hopefully in this planting season, which is coming up.

[55:08] So that I think we have I think we have some funding.

[55:11] I think for that we could do that would

[55:14] be along the tree line there and addressing that gap.

[55:19] Phase 2, Dominion is coming out.

[55:21] I know they're coming out to do more spraying.

[55:24] And I think we just got some communication from staff today

[55:27] about that, of wanting to talk to them a little bit more

[55:29] about what other planting can they do.

[55:31] They have been amenable to it.

[55:33] They're not putting huge trees, but they're

[55:35] definitely putting some evergreens and some things.

[55:38] Like I said, behind 1119, they're putting some vegetation.

[55:41] Which house is 1119?

[55:42] It's the furthest all the way on the end

[55:45] in the call to add the call.

[55:46] Yes The property damage claim is this house right now.

[55:54] Wow gosh, that's a strong swing.

[55:56] That's a bad shot.

[55:58] Yeah like I said, I mean, strong and wild.

[56:00] We have some amateurs, and technology has improved.

[56:05] And I do think that is impacting how hard and far some

[56:08] of these golf balls are going.

[56:10] So again, I'll just beat this dead horse one last time.

[56:13] Why don't we just bond.

[56:17] Why are we trying to scrape up.

[56:19] I mean, I get that it's a minimal amount.

[56:21] It's not a matter of us having the money or not.

[56:23] It's a matter of council deciding.

[56:26] Is that much money worth spending for basically

[56:32] a one in 250,000 chance.

[56:37] Even I said, even if we went from three average claims

[56:41] a year to 30, that's still way less than a $1.2 million

[56:50] net is going to cost, and a 12 $2 billion net

[56:53] is probably also going.

[56:55] Even if we borrowed for that, it's going to severely limit.

[57:00]

[57:04] The amount we have in reserves for the golf course

[57:07] and the ability to do anything else out

[57:08] there for the foreseeable unless we Jack up rates a lot

[57:14] to cover it.

[57:15] So it's just more of a cost risk analysis in my opinion.

[57:18] It's not a matter of, do we have the money or not.

[57:20] So again, not to guess when we do the full 1.4 million

[57:26] whatever.

[57:27] But option two was that we combined 2, 4 and 5 with I

[57:33] mean that somewhere South of.

[57:36] No, no, no.

[57:36] If you want to do option two.

[57:39] Yeah I mean that would just work that into next year's budget

[57:43] discussion because there's going to be other stuff related to the

[57:46] we keep going back to the budget again.

[57:48] That would be increasing.

[57:50] No no no it I would use fund balance out

[57:53] of this for any regard.

[57:56] So it's not a matter of I would use the Enterprise

[58:00] fund, the enterprise funds fund balance if we needed to use

[58:06] the towns, the general funds fund

[58:08] balance, that's also an option.

[58:09] So it's not a matter of money.

[58:12] It's a matter of how much do you want to spend

[58:16] on insurance kind of question.

[58:19]

[58:23] And again, it's whatever solution

[58:28] we put up there will still be golf balls in the yard.

[58:32] I can't stop animals from dropping and doing

[58:36] that, which goes into some damage is caused if a mower

[58:40] catches it and hooks it.

[58:42] If there's balls that land in the vegetation,

[58:46] they can rock it out like the siding

[58:48] damage is pretty significant.

[58:50] On the one and that is definitely a ball rocketing.

[58:54] I don't know how it happened, but it's

[58:57] a hole in the siding, so probably got hit by a lawnmower.

[59:00] I mean, otherwise we're not sure it's physically

[59:02] possible for a ball to go that distance

[59:06] and punch a hole in siding.

[59:08] Yeah so to say all that it's not going to it

[59:13] will keep balls that are errant from going through in that area.

[59:17] Yeah I just want to set expectations.

[59:20] So if I think I'm hearing us converge on.

[59:26] So if we can get fall planning inning.

[59:29] We at least want to do some plantings and vegetative stuff

[59:33] in any solution we would need to direct for sure.

[59:36] Now so that way that can be planned this fall.

[59:40] Are we in agreement there.

[59:42] Yes OK.

[59:42] We have some informational needs.

[59:46] And since any kind of netting solutions going to have to come

[59:50] through a budget Amendment and we

[59:51] have to do procurements or anything

[59:53] if we choose to do that.

[59:54] Do I have here convergence on Get the additional information

[59:59] on Dominion easement concerns, the pass through

[1:00:06] and any alternatives there.

[1:00:08] And look at the rest of the perimeters,

[1:00:11] because I would want to package up anything

[1:00:14] that we're doing in a budget Amendment or whatever together.

[1:00:17] Yeah and that would include the 700 foot.

[1:00:20] And then we would come back once we

[1:00:22] have that information, 700 or 80 foot

[1:00:25] height, 80 foot height or both.

[1:00:27] Well, I think the 80 might be a stretch.

[1:00:33] I mean, I guess asking Dominion if you can ask them,

[1:00:37] but I think we need to know what Dominion says.

[1:00:41] But then all right, then we get to

[1:00:43] a real financial conversation.

[1:00:45] That's a huge hole in the budget at that point.

[1:00:47] So well, yeah, I mean do it all.

[1:00:50] But my preference would be that entire because you got people

[1:00:54] that I mean I've seen people play

[1:00:57] this course even at if you're on your third shot,

[1:01:01] there is a chance.

[1:01:03] That thing goes sideways.

[1:01:06] So yeah, it's not always.

[1:01:08] But your third shot is not a driver.

[1:01:10] So for most people, yeah, but you

[1:01:13] got people out there drinking.

[1:01:14] I mean, it's like LEGOs.

[1:01:16] So no, I would be in favor of the full 700 at the 60

[1:01:22] and then look at options for the 450 at 80.

[1:01:26] Et cetera I think as far as the distance

[1:01:34] and how far we need to go, I definitely

[1:01:37] would want to enlist a expert in golf course

[1:01:41] to give us a better idea of what that prime spot is,

[1:01:44] to protect the houses all along that area.

[1:01:47] I would assume Mike has people.

[1:01:49] Yeah Cool OK.

[1:01:53] Anything else from anyone.

[1:01:55] Long term in master plan, we need to look at.

[1:01:59] Lots of other things regarding interior of the course and.

[1:02:02] Yes OK I think I have what I need.

[1:02:08] Great thanks.

[1:02:10] I'm not going to stop sharing.

[1:02:12] Yeah OK.

[1:02:15] Thank you.

[1:02:17] Thank you.

[1:02:20] All right.

[1:02:21] I will now recognize Mike shingledecker,

[1:02:23] our transportation engineer, to begin the discussion

[1:02:26] of traffic calming, crosswalks, crosswalks,

[1:02:29] and bike safety discussion.

[1:02:30] And Chief will also be assisting this.

[1:02:34] Chief, we have a spot for you up here too.

[1:02:36] Thanks Oh, by the way, that's it.

[1:02:40]

[1:02:43] Actually, kick it off with a couple things

[1:02:45] while they're getting settled.

[1:02:47] So you guys know Mr. shingledecker

[1:02:50] and chief behonick, we want to hit two topics

[1:02:54] tonight that are very timely.

[1:02:57] One is traffic.

[1:02:58] Now, of course, we're hearing.

[1:03:02] More and more interest we've got in traffic calming around town.

[1:03:08] We've got our drive differently effort.

[1:03:10] We've got a variety of different things.

[1:03:13] But one of the things that happens all the time

[1:03:15] is we have residents come to us and say,

[1:03:18] can we get a stop sign here.

[1:03:19] Can we get a crosswalk there.

[1:03:21] Will you lower the speed limit from there to there.

[1:03:23] I'm sure all of you, especially when

[1:03:25] you're out and about talking to residents,

[1:03:27] you get similar questions.

[1:03:29] So today Mike's going to talk a little bit about what

[1:03:32] that process looks like.

[1:03:33] Because a lot happens.

[1:03:34] We can't just slap a stop sign in somewhere.

[1:03:36] A lot happens behind the scene.

[1:03:39] And we take a look at all the requests we get.

[1:03:41] So Mike's going to talk about that

[1:03:42] and some of the common measures that you

[1:03:46] frequently get asked for.

[1:03:48] So when you're out and about can talk a little bit

[1:03:51] about why things can't go in certain places

[1:03:55] or why they could.

[1:03:57] And then chief is going to talk about e-bikes,

[1:03:59] another hot topic of the day, more and more on the trail

[1:04:03] and around town.

[1:04:05] A lot of illegal bicycles, electric bicycles.

[1:04:10] And we've got an event coming up tomorrow,

[1:04:12] actually, about the topic.

[1:04:16] Mike.

[1:04:17] Thanks, Dan.

[1:04:18] Good evening council.

[1:04:20] Wonderful to be in front of you again.

[1:04:23] Quick, quick, brief history of where we've been.

[1:04:26] Back in 2011, we had this thing neighbor travel

[1:04:30] guide and then that supported that was

[1:04:33] this marked crosswalk guide.

[1:04:36] We merge these two things together

[1:04:37] about two years ago in 2024, and adopted standards

[1:04:41] for traffic calming crosswalks.

[1:04:42] That's this one.

[1:04:43] And we clarified the process that involves how our residents

[1:04:50] and members of our community essentially ask for things

[1:04:53] in the transportation network and how that moves,

[1:04:56] what supports our findings to help clarify

[1:05:00] how we operate internally.

[1:05:04] So what we have up on the screen,

[1:05:06] this little timeline is what the requester sees when

[1:05:09] they want to see something change

[1:05:10] in our transportation network.

[1:05:12] They'll report it, clarify details about it.

[1:05:15] And then we may ask for additional information.

[1:05:18] We may hold a public meeting or something like that.

[1:05:21] And then we'll track it through a funding process,

[1:05:24] a programmatic process.

[1:05:26] And then one of the key changes that we

[1:05:28] made in the 2024 standards was the after study process.

[1:05:32] Making sure that what we did is actually

[1:05:35] being effective and using data to justify that case.

[1:05:40] If you aren't fully aware internally,

[1:05:43] staff has a committee called the traffic engineering

[1:05:47] improvement committee.

[1:05:48] Teak will sometimes refer to it as.

[1:05:51] And this is comprised entirely of staff

[1:05:53] from Department of Public Works, engineering operations, Herndon

[1:05:57] police department and planning.

[1:05:59] And we'll pull in others as necessary.

[1:06:01] And really that's there to help staff

[1:06:03] holistically look at concerns and requests that we receive.

[1:06:07]

[1:06:10] So the question is, how does it all start.

[1:06:12] Herndon on the go.

[1:06:13] Our app is honestly the number one way to put in service

[1:06:17] requests because it generates.

[1:06:19] I didn't even know that.

[1:06:20] OK, well, we can link up with the link there.

[1:06:25] And we'll continue to try to get that information out.

[1:06:27] That generates a work order internal to our system,

[1:06:30] and it gets routed immediately to the team that does that work.

[1:06:33] So if there's a traffic calming complaint,

[1:06:35] it literally comes to me.

[1:06:36] I get it in my inbox.

[1:06:38] If there's a signage complaint, it goes to a signage team.

[1:06:40] If it's a safety complaint, if it's life threatening,

[1:06:43] call 911 or dispatch.

[1:06:45] But if it's non-life threatening,

[1:06:47] we can route it to HPD as well in the process

[1:06:49] that when we get these types of requests,

[1:06:52] the more detail is better.

[1:06:53] A picture is worth a thousand words.

[1:06:55] It helps us understand what's happening,

[1:06:57] because the way that staff looks at these requests

[1:07:00] in our transportation network isn't what you want.

[1:07:04] I want a stop sign.

[1:07:05] It's about the problem.

[1:07:06] People are not paying attention to pedestrians here.

[1:07:09] Those are two different things from the staff perspective,

[1:07:12] and we have different engineering countermeasures

[1:07:14] based on what's actually being observed,

[1:07:16] the problem at in hand.

[1:07:18] And again.

[1:07:19] So this is very dry.

[1:07:21] This is an engineering document.

[1:07:22] That's why I'm not sharing too much directly from it.

[1:07:25] It is available on our website within our Department

[1:07:28] of Public Works section.

[1:07:29] So I can always link that if you would like that.

[1:07:33] And when that comes in it gets logged

[1:07:36] and we track that continuously through the process.

[1:07:39] We have a couple different levels

[1:07:40] of how we understand requests.

[1:07:42] At a basic level, if it's something very simple,

[1:07:44] like a sign is damaged or a Bush is in the way of sight distance,

[1:07:48] we can process that very quickly.

[1:07:50] A work order goes out and our operations team

[1:07:52] takes care of it.

[1:07:53] If it maybe involves a little bit more detail,

[1:07:56] perhaps we need to collect traffic

[1:07:58] data, something like that.

[1:08:00] We may bring on call engineer staff may self-perform it,

[1:08:04] but usually those things go to teak

[1:08:06] and we make sure that we're looking at it holistically

[1:08:08] and multidisciplinary from a multidisciplinary approach.

[1:08:11] When things get complicated, say we need to add a lane

[1:08:15] or add a traffic signal.

[1:08:16] That's where we have to really ramp up the level of detail.

[1:08:19] And we may go to vdot and ask for their support

[1:08:23] or seek grant funding.

[1:08:24] Those can take a long time years to process those requests.

[1:08:27] But we do track them and we keep them

[1:08:29] moving as the need justifies.

[1:08:33] And like our standards that we have outlined in the guide,

[1:08:37] they're not just stuff we came up with.

[1:08:39] It's best practices.

[1:08:41] It's federal dot standards.

[1:08:44] It's right from a lot of different sources.

[1:08:48] Yeah, this document wasn't just staff prepared.

[1:08:50] We did bring our third party engineer to help

[1:08:53] US Aggregate best practices.

[1:08:54] We compared it to peer jurisdictions

[1:08:56] such as Falls Church or Vienna.

[1:08:58] We're using vdot guidance.

[1:09:00] They are our state body of knowledge

[1:09:03] when it comes to transportation and following best practice.

[1:09:06] That's why we had this update in the first place,

[1:09:08] is to keep us at the cutting edge of traffic

[1:09:10] calming and pedestrian safety.

[1:09:13] Thanks all right.

[1:09:17] A couple of quick definitions just

[1:09:18] to get a sense of what I'm talking about when

[1:09:20] we talk about traffic calming.

[1:09:22] These are changes within the roadway

[1:09:25] within our transportation facilities

[1:09:28] that change a behavior.

[1:09:30] There is a reason for them to be there.

[1:09:33] And very often it's safety oriented

[1:09:35] reducing speed, improving visibility, or enabling

[1:09:39] a safer pedestrian crossing.

[1:09:43] We do have limitations on where certain things

[1:09:45] can be implemented.

[1:09:47] So for example, a lot of people ask for speed humps.

[1:09:49] It's a very popular request when we have buses

[1:09:53] or we have an arterial facility that's maybe 35 miles an hour,

[1:09:57] those become a balance of operations.

[1:10:00] Damage to vehicles speed can damage buses.

[1:10:04] Especially think of a school bus when

[1:10:06] you have 50 school children.

[1:10:08] It's a lot of weight on the suspension.

[1:10:10] We try to avoid heavily impactful full countermeasures.

[1:10:14] Instead, we'd rather use behavioral modifications

[1:10:16] like our speed feedback signs.

[1:10:18] So we do have a fair number of those in our community.

[1:10:20] There are just different tools that we use in engineering

[1:10:23] to elicit a change.

[1:10:26] Anytime we do traffic calming, it's data based,

[1:10:28] we collect speeds out in the field.

[1:10:31] You probably haven't seen our little data collection boxes.

[1:10:34] They're about yay big, about inches to 10.

[1:10:37] They're very discreet, and the intent

[1:10:39] is to deploy those in a way that doesn't affect behavior

[1:10:43] that's sometimes laugh.

[1:10:45] Oh, when are you doing data collection.

[1:10:46] You usually say, we're not telling you because we

[1:10:48] want it to be unbiased.

[1:10:49] We want our data to be truthful.

[1:10:51] We also, of course, look at Crash history

[1:10:54] and conduct staff observations.

[1:10:56] So you'll probably see me out and about

[1:10:58] on occasion in my safety desk watching what's going on.

[1:11:01] And the more detail I get on the front end,

[1:11:03] the more we understand on the back end

[1:11:04] how to and what to look for.

[1:11:08] There is a key decision gate that we

[1:11:10] do use in terms of traffic calming

[1:11:12] with respect to vehicle speeds, because that

[1:11:14] is such a prevalent request.

[1:11:16] We use what's called the 85th percentile speed.

[1:11:19] It's the measured speed at which 85% of vehicles

[1:11:22] are traveling at or below.

[1:11:26] That is usually the industry accepted threshold for what

[1:11:32] we call speeding in a sense.

[1:11:33] And it has to be 10 miles an hour

[1:11:35] above the posted speed limit.

[1:11:37] That's not arbitrary.

[1:11:38] It's not something staff came up with.

[1:11:40] It's accepted within the industry

[1:11:42] as an appropriate balance of data, real world conditions,

[1:11:47] and then a response to that.

[1:11:49]

[1:11:52] Crosswalks a little bit more straightforward in terms

[1:11:55] of what we're looking for.

[1:11:57] We're making sure they're spaced sufficiently

[1:12:00] from other crosswalks.

[1:12:01] So we don't have too many crossings all at once.

[1:12:03] That can be very difficult to manage

[1:12:06] for both pedestrians and drivers when

[1:12:08] there's too many interruptions.

[1:12:10] And again, we use data such as how many pedestrians are

[1:12:12] crossing at a particular location

[1:12:15] to justify implementing something

[1:12:16] that is going to be impactful to vehicular travel flow.

[1:12:20]

[1:12:22] All right.

[1:12:23] So how do we actually come up with the solutions

[1:12:24] we're going for.

[1:12:26] The timeline at the bottom is what you would

[1:12:28] expect through the practice.

[1:12:30] But in general, it's professionals making

[1:12:33] judgment calls based on data.

[1:12:34] That's what it all comes down to.

[1:12:37] If it's significantly going impact going to significantly

[1:12:41] impact a transportation facility,

[1:12:43] we may hold a community meeting.

[1:12:45] We do a couple of times a year with a focus on transportation.

[1:12:48] Or we may engage a specific group.

[1:12:52] So for example, when we did our Bennett street traffic

[1:12:54] calming review, we actually had at the time, our youth

[1:12:59] advisory committee acting as a focus group

[1:13:02] and involving those that are directly affected by any changes

[1:13:05] that we're proposing.

[1:13:06]

[1:13:09] How the change happens.

[1:13:10] Again, it depends on the scale.

[1:13:12] We do have programmatic and operational funds that

[1:13:14] allow us to make minor changes.

[1:13:16] We try to leverage our paving repaving

[1:13:19] program, our concrete maintenance programs

[1:13:22] to take advantage of those.

[1:13:23] So again, Bennett street was a great example of this, where we

[1:13:26] had to repave the road anyway.

[1:13:28] We had to do concrete repair anyway.

[1:13:30] So we tacked on the traffic calming elements

[1:13:33] to help leverage multiple funding accounts

[1:13:35] and keep it cost effective for larger work.

[1:13:40] It enters into the CIP, which you all are

[1:13:42] familiar with at this point.

[1:13:44] Or we may seek grant funding, depending on the scale.

[1:13:49] All right.

[1:13:50] So once we're done, once it's in place, we do measure it.

[1:13:53] And if we find that we've generated a new safety issue,

[1:13:56] we should be capturing those.

[1:13:58] But we do reserve the authority to remove it.

[1:14:01] If we've created a new problem, we

[1:14:03] want to make sure we put in a safe and moving

[1:14:05] in the right direction.

[1:14:07] But on top of that, we will assess if it's effective

[1:14:10] and go back out with something else

[1:14:11] with the data suggests otherwise isn't working.

[1:14:16] The other thing that's pretty much

[1:14:18] all I wanted to share with that.

[1:14:21] I did pass out a print version of the roadway

[1:14:23] safety action plan.

[1:14:24] This is the exact same thing that's

[1:14:25] online as we start to get requests,

[1:14:30] because we do now have a high Injury Network.

[1:14:32] And this is essentially a legislative priority.

[1:14:35] That said, these are the locations

[1:14:36] where we're trying to focus the projects in here

[1:14:39] are going to get a little bit more priority

[1:14:41] than any community concerns that are tangential or adjacent

[1:14:46] to those areas.

[1:14:47] Not that we would ignore them, but this is where we're trying

[1:14:50] to get the most bang for our buck in reducing the injuries

[1:14:53] we have on our roadway.

[1:14:55] And transportation facilities.

[1:14:57] So that's kind of a new thing.

[1:14:59] We haven't exactly worked it into our process yet.

[1:15:03] We might come out with a version 1.1 or something like that.

[1:15:06] There's a couple changes we want to implement anyway.

[1:15:09] Roadway safety action plan will start to color

[1:15:12] how we approach some of these, especially when it comes

[1:15:14] to larger capital funding.

[1:15:16] So I don't know if we want to go right into chief's presentation.

[1:15:21] We can pause briefly for questions for me.

[1:15:24] Otherwise, great work.

[1:15:26] Thank you.

[1:15:28] I have a quick question.

[1:15:29] Yes, sir.

[1:15:30] You can tell me it's too early and not statistically relevant,

[1:15:32] but with school starting, do you have any anecdotal things

[1:15:36] that you can share around all the measures that we put

[1:15:39] in place and what it may be doing impact wise,

[1:15:43] specifically at Bennett street or administrator.

[1:15:46] We haven't received, knock on wood, a single complaint, only

[1:15:50] positive feedback from school parents,

[1:15:53] Bus Operations and the folks at the church across the street.

[1:15:57] And did we get signalization changed during the signalization

[1:16:04] station at the intersection of Bennett street

[1:16:06] and Janesville road is functioning as we expected it.

[1:16:09] We're processing all vehicles, all school bus departures,

[1:16:13] and essentially a single cycle.

[1:16:14] Sometimes there's some stragglers

[1:16:16] if they're moving a little slow, but we've essentially,

[1:16:20] I would say, completely effective.

[1:16:23] We are planning to go collect speed data in the next month

[1:16:28] or two once conditions normalize,

[1:16:31] and I'll be able to confidently bring back some data that says,

[1:16:34] from a speed perspective, we were all so successful.

[1:16:36] And then over time, crash trends will tell us that as well.

[1:16:40] But anecdotally, 100% success.

[1:16:45] OK thank you chief.

[1:16:48] Sure yeah.

[1:16:49] Thanks Are you bringing up for me.

[1:16:53] Yeah, thanks.

[1:16:55] OK OK.

[1:17:03] So we'll get into the e-bikes.

[1:17:07] We started maybe around springtime is

[1:17:11] when we really started seeing.

[1:17:13] And when we talk about e-bikes we're

[1:17:14] talking about more motorcycles.

[1:17:17] We're not having problems with the e-bikes that we

[1:17:20] call with the pedals and stuff.

[1:17:21] So we saw a lot of problems with and we have a lot of youngsters

[1:17:26] on e-bikes or the motorcycles.

[1:17:29] And now these things get up to 30, 40, 70 miles an hour.

[1:17:34] I'll tell you in a minute.

[1:17:36] Yeah they're fast.

[1:17:38] So yeah.

[1:17:39] Yeah I'm sorry.

[1:17:41] So what we're seeing a lot is these over on the far right.

[1:17:45] They're basically motorcycles and much smaller ones.

[1:17:47] The one on the far right, their dirt bikes, dirt bikes,

[1:17:51] they're going up and down the trail.

[1:17:52] And so that's what we've been really working on.

[1:17:54] But what we're doing is it's really

[1:17:57] an education because parents are buying

[1:18:00] these things for their kids.

[1:18:01] They don't know what they're buying.

[1:18:03] They don't know if they're legal or not.

[1:18:04] And we're trying to especially when we get kids out

[1:18:08] on the trail that we're stopping when

[1:18:10] they're crossing over our roads, we're stopping them.

[1:18:12] And we'll call the parents to the scene.

[1:18:15] We've been seizing them from adults,

[1:18:17] putting them on flatbeds, impounding them.

[1:18:20] So you'll see that, the state has

[1:18:24] given us these classifications class Ii, and three.

[1:18:27] Some of these are.

[1:18:27] Pedal pedal assist.

[1:18:28] Some of them also have the capability of some throttle,

[1:18:31] but they all have some form of pedal assist.

[1:18:33] So anything that exceeds those standards like it

[1:18:36] says on the bottom illegal.

[1:18:39] And Chief, when you say folks are getting these

[1:18:42] for their kids, a lot of the illegal ones,

[1:18:44] they're getting online.

[1:18:46] Yes these are like Amazon, Amazon,

[1:18:49] our local bike shops will sell you legal e-bikes

[1:18:53] or the scooters, giving you any issues

[1:18:55] as you see a lot of kids with the scooters.

[1:18:58] Yeah, not just kids.

[1:18:59] I've seen an adult down Eldon street in the middle

[1:19:02] of the street going on to say, yeah, we do see those

[1:19:05] and they're there in the road, but once you're in the roadway,

[1:19:07] you become a motor vehicle essentially.

[1:19:09] Just like so you're subject to the laws and regulations

[1:19:12] of the problems that we're seeing

[1:19:15] is that when you're walking down our bike path

[1:19:18] here and someone scoots by you going 30 miles an hour,

[1:19:21] that's a problem.

[1:19:23] And also on the streets, we don't want kids getting hurt

[1:19:26] and traffic accidents because a lot of them

[1:19:28] are not wearing helmets either.

[1:19:29] Yeah they don't even have license plates.

[1:19:31] So now how are you going to get the insurance from them.

[1:19:34] And they shouldn't be using cell phones while they're operating,

[1:19:40] because I've seen kids almost run

[1:19:41] into telephone poles on their phone while on an e-bike.

[1:19:45] Yeah, yeah.

[1:19:47] How many people you can fit on one e-bike

[1:19:49] is also something I see regularly.

[1:19:51] Yeah out my window.

[1:19:53] Yeah Yeah and this is I mean this problem

[1:19:56] this is not going to go away.

[1:19:57] This is the transportation mode in the future,

[1:20:00] and it's here now.

[1:20:01] But we've just got to work make it the safest and the best

[1:20:06] we can to make it work for the town.

[1:20:07] So this is part of the presentation,

[1:20:10] we're going to be giving to the town tomorrow night.

[1:20:12] It's at the community center.

[1:20:14] We wanted to really launch this with a good educational piece

[1:20:17] for everybody.

[1:20:18] And really this is an education for the parents.

[1:20:20] We're hoping that's the crowd that's going to show up.

[1:20:24] So this is our roadways, bike lanes permitted, sidewalks

[1:20:29] and trails generally permitted.

[1:20:32] And this is for our e-bikes that fit those classifications.

[1:20:35] We're not talking about the motorcycles,

[1:20:39] the helmet required.

[1:20:42] There is a local ordinance that would make that under 15.

[1:20:46] We don't have that.

[1:20:48] But, all the other laws there do apply for e-bike riders

[1:20:52] here in the state.

[1:20:55] So this is your typical bike that we're seeing out there.

[1:20:59] So the 15 greater than 1,500 watts, that becomes

[1:21:03] essentially motorcycles.

[1:21:04] So isn't it.

[1:21:06] Sorry these are not pedal assist.

[1:21:09] Just throttle over 20 is basically

[1:21:13] these are not pedal assist.

[1:21:14] These are just strictly throttle mini motorcycles.

[1:21:18] And when you see them you try to stop them.

[1:21:21] Yes OK.

[1:21:23] I mean, we have people.

[1:21:24] I'll show you some stats here.

[1:21:25] What we've been doing over the last month.

[1:21:26] We have a lot of people that run to they just see us.

[1:21:29] And do you guys have a chase policy here.

[1:21:33] No we're going to be very careful about.

[1:21:36] Do you want to chase policy.

[1:21:37] No we have a pursuit policy.

[1:21:40] It's not like he's thinking pit.

[1:21:44] No no no no no no no.

[1:21:46] So a lot of times if it's a kid, we're

[1:21:51] going to know who they are.

[1:21:52] We'll go find them.

[1:21:53] But we don't want to cause a bigger issue.

[1:21:57] When they take off, not fully developed brains

[1:22:00] sometimes with everybody.

[1:22:01] So are they wearing helmets.

[1:22:03] Well, we see it both sides.

[1:22:05] We see somewhere in helmets, some not.

[1:22:07] So quick question for the 50 cc's

[1:22:10] does Virginia like DC law you need

[1:22:12] to have it's like 40 CC you need to have a vehicle register.

[1:22:16] Is it the same here.

[1:22:17] Yeah so if anything is greater than any of those numbers there,

[1:22:20] essentially it becomes a motorcycle that has

[1:22:22] to be registered or insured.

[1:22:24] All that.

[1:22:24] So anything above those parameters

[1:22:27] automatically becomes motorcycle.

[1:22:28] Not legal on especially on the trails.

[1:22:32] Can't ride and people are modifying these now.

[1:22:36] So like 750.

[1:22:38] We had one the other day that we stopped.

[1:22:40] That was 35,000w.

[1:22:42] It went 0 to 60 in like three seconds.

[1:22:45] It's crazy.

[1:22:46] And he was riding on the wnod here.

[1:22:48] He stopped and he impounded it.

[1:22:50] So this is just some more Paramus sidewalks and operated.

[1:22:56] These are the motorcycles.

[1:22:57] Basically, if you have a nice piece of property

[1:22:59] somewhere in the country, or there's

[1:23:00] a place designated on private property where you can ride it,

[1:23:04] that's fine.

[1:23:05] But in Herndon, there's probably not

[1:23:08] a lot of places like that here.

[1:23:10] So this is some of these are some of the pamphlets that we

[1:23:15] created that we put on social media who

[1:23:18] are going to be handing out to the public tomorrow.

[1:23:20] We get this stuff out there that parents just have to understand.

[1:23:25] We pulled over, I think it was a 12 or 13-year-old kid

[1:23:28] and parents had no idea they got their dad was a little upset

[1:23:32] because he spent his money on this thing, but he can't ride

[1:23:35] any private property.

[1:23:37] We ran into that kid a few days later

[1:23:39] who was riding a regular bicycle,

[1:23:41] and we said, oh, where's your bike.

[1:23:43] He said, well, my dad won't let me drive it anymore.

[1:23:45] So that's the education part of it.

[1:23:48] It's working.

[1:23:48] Yes, it could be.

[1:23:51] So So this is just some more things here that we're

[1:23:55] going to be giving the public.

[1:23:56] So that way they have a good understanding.

[1:23:57] We just want the knowledge is out there.

[1:23:59] So in the last, I would say this was sometime from mid-july

[1:24:03] into maybe the end of August.

[1:24:05] This is just a little snapshot.

[1:24:07] We had 22 of those motor I mean it's not e-bikes

[1:24:09] but motorcycles stopped.

[1:24:11] We impounded eight of them, 10 of them, either warnings

[1:24:15] or talking to the parents.

[1:24:17] Call the parents to the scene.

[1:24:19] Eight of those 22 were cited, some of them

[1:24:23] with multiple citations, because there was multiple violations.

[1:24:26] So a little bit of enforcement in there, heavy on the education

[1:24:30] part right now.

[1:24:33] So we had them at the community picnic.

[1:24:36] We just got them.

[1:24:36] We just got two recon interceptor bikes.

[1:24:39] They're specifically made for police, very heavy duty bikes.

[1:24:43] And, if we want to be out there patrolling, we need to have,

[1:24:47] we need to be able to paddle and keep up with those guys.

[1:24:50] So do we have officers that can go 0 to 60 and no hours.

[1:24:54] No, because we have to be within those restricted.

[1:24:55] These are legal.

[1:24:56] These are legal.

[1:24:58] These are pedal assist.

[1:24:59] These are pedal assist.

[1:25:00] So you guys don't use segues or anything like that.

[1:25:03] No so you guys use this now.

[1:25:04] Yeah they're great.

[1:25:05] Yeah I tested them when they brought them here.

[1:25:07] They're fun.

[1:25:08] They're great.

[1:25:09] They're safe.

[1:25:10] They're heavy duty.

[1:25:11] So we got them with a state grant.

[1:25:14] There's a heat grant that we got them with.

[1:25:16] So I'd love to get two more at some point.

[1:25:18] Maybe put in for it again next year.

[1:25:21] So yeah, so far they've been in the public's been

[1:25:24] loving seeing them out there.

[1:25:25] So this is the bike flyer that's been out.

[1:25:30] Obviously we put out in two languages there

[1:25:32] for everybody because we'll have translation

[1:25:35] services there as well tomorrow night for that meeting.

[1:25:40] So this is Vienna police department reached out to us

[1:25:44] and chief Janicki down there.

[1:25:45] We're going to do a rodeo with them.

[1:25:47] Kind of these two towns coming together

[1:25:49] is that we're going to do a safety bike rodeo down there.

[1:25:53] At the end of the month, we'll send

[1:25:55] some of our motor units down there, some of our bike team,

[1:25:57] kind of a good fun event with Vienna.

[1:25:59] And then my hope was to do one here locally,

[1:26:02] maybe a little bit later on.

[1:26:04] Get some of our businesses involved with that as well,

[1:26:07] and maybe invite in one of the other towns

[1:26:08] from North of us, Leesburg or something,

[1:26:10] to come down and do that, to keep that chain moving up.

[1:26:12] Percival and Percival or yeah anywhere,

[1:26:15] so we're just trying to stay on top of things

[1:26:18] get do the education part, have a little fun with the families

[1:26:22] and so that's good.

[1:26:24] That's coming up.

[1:26:25] So any questions I know I kind of went quickly through that.

[1:26:28] But how easy is it to recognize some of this

[1:26:34] as an officer looking out, of course,

[1:26:36] you're not going to know if they've souped it up unless.

[1:26:38] Yeah so the ones without the pedals,

[1:26:41] that's the dead giveaway.

[1:26:42] Like it's just it's probably not there.

[1:26:44] Well, and then there should be a lot of them

[1:26:46] should have plates that have either information on the motor

[1:26:50] size, things like that.

[1:26:51] Our bike guys are getting very good at

[1:26:53] of peeling back the layers to check and see if these things

[1:26:57] are legal or not.

[1:26:58] So some of the ones that they're modifying,

[1:27:03] a lot of the frustration from the parents

[1:27:04] is they're bringing these things into the bike shop.

[1:27:06] So when they break, because they don't last

[1:27:08] very long because they're delivered by Amazon

[1:27:10] and that the bike shops here won't work

[1:27:13] on them because they just can't they won't say they won't do it.

[1:27:16] So they're trying to steer the parents

[1:27:19] towards those reputable shops so buy something

[1:27:21] that at least should work.

[1:27:24] OK Other questions.

[1:27:29] Come out to the meeting tomorrow night.

[1:27:30] Thank you.

[1:27:30] Tell everyone about it.

[1:27:31] Thanks Thank you guys.

[1:27:32] Thank you.

[1:27:32]

[1:27:46] Thank you, bring up.

[1:27:50] Thank you.

[1:27:51] I have no comments this evening.

[1:27:53] And we will come into the room.

[1:27:58] Kelvin, do you have anything.

[1:28:00] Just want to say that our book bag giveaway council member book

[1:28:05] bag giveaway was a success.

[1:28:07] We donated book bags for four seasons for kids in the area.

[1:28:12] We'll do it again next year.

[1:28:13] Hopefully so thank you.

[1:28:16] OK, Susan, two things I'll be quick.

[1:28:21] First, I did want to make a quick announcement.

[1:28:24] The green lizard foundation name of the race next year.

[1:28:32] They're targeting April 17 or 24th of next year.

[1:28:37] So chief get your team ready.

[1:28:39] We're going to represent Herndon proud with the law enforcement.

[1:28:42] Yes So it's April 17 or 24th since we have people listening

[1:28:48] or watching the stream.

[1:28:49] Can you explain what you're talking.

[1:28:51] Sure, sure.

[1:28:51] Yeah my apologies.

[1:28:53] So the town set aside a grant fund.

[1:28:58] One of the requests came from the green lizard foundation

[1:29:01] to support a town what's called a criterium.

[1:29:06] It's a race within the town.

[1:29:08] Laps so if you figure 10 heats, 10 laps

[1:29:13] and it's a national thing, it'll be regional.

[1:29:15] There'll be professionals, amateurs.

[1:29:18] It's a serious race event.

[1:29:20] Serious revenue driver for the town.

[1:29:22] And I do want to thank the council, the staff

[1:29:26] and the police for finally getting aligned

[1:29:28] and getting this thing happen.

[1:29:29] So April 17, 24th next year and they are

[1:29:33] interviewing race directors.

[1:29:35] So this is going to really put us on the map.

[1:29:38] The other thing is I wanted to be mindful of our discussion

[1:29:42] in the closed meeting.

[1:29:45] I'll ask that we give these back.

[1:29:48] But I wanted to share with you all one of the requests that

[1:29:53] has come from residents regarding the Herndon Park

[1:29:57] Station collection request.

[1:30:00] I apologize for how I take these because it printed out weird.

[1:30:03] So all you got to do is flip up on that.

[1:30:05] So it's a very nice presentation.

[1:30:09] So bottom line here and my ask here

[1:30:11] is really to can we discuss this further in a future work

[1:30:15] session with staff input.

[1:30:17] Just because I think we want to come up with a solution here.

[1:30:22] So just a little background.

[1:30:24] There is a situation where historically

[1:30:29] the trash bins had been collected

[1:30:33] by our disposal trucks.

[1:30:36] Recently that was changed.

[1:30:39] And I've documented from the residents, the impact

[1:30:43] that they're grappling with today.

[1:30:45] So if you look at page, I think it's labeled number three.

[1:30:51] There's some requests there in terms of what

[1:30:55] a potential solution could be.

[1:30:57] And we still collect just in a different location.

[1:30:59] And so that's the next slide is page four.

[1:31:03] So if you look at page 4 you look

[1:31:06] at how it's moved from the private drive alley

[1:31:10] into the street collection area.

[1:31:14] There's some pictures there.

[1:31:15] There's some documented concerns there that they voiced in terms

[1:31:19] of how that's being managed, not managed,

[1:31:22] but how it's contributing to traffic flow on Park there.

[1:31:27] So there are a couple different concerns that neighbors have

[1:31:31] voiced their documented here.

[1:31:34] That's why I wanted to make sure we get with staff

[1:31:38] at a future work session, to capture

[1:31:40] some of these other concerns.

[1:31:42] In terms of some of the historical components,

[1:31:48] it's been this way for a long time.

[1:31:50] The concern is, can they get it back to the way it was.

[1:31:55] So that's something we should discuss and have

[1:31:57] a future discussion on.

[1:31:59] The last thing I want to go through here just being

[1:32:01] mindful of what was discussed in the closed session,

[1:32:05] is there are some options that I think

[1:32:09] are worth pursuing, considering that would

[1:32:13] improve the quality of life.

[1:32:16] And I go back to our strategic focus on this.

[1:32:19] We talked earlier.

[1:32:20] This is under good governance, right.

[1:32:23] It's about providing a solution, a community

[1:32:27] centered service to a concern that the residents would have.

[1:32:32] So I think it aligns well with our strategic plan.

[1:32:37] Again, we're going to need more data to verify

[1:32:39] and validate with staff.

[1:32:41] Some of those things.

[1:32:43] So again, my request is I know I can't necessarily

[1:32:47] leave you all with this, but.

[1:32:49]

[1:32:52] Try to digest it.

[1:32:54] And I look forward to having that future discussion

[1:32:56] with staff on this topic at some future work session.

[1:33:00] So this is just to bring everyone

[1:33:01] up to date on what was discussed in the closed session.

[1:33:05] So, well, not what we discussed in a closed session.

[1:33:10] A concern, a concern to talk about that I wouldn't

[1:33:14] go into the details of this.

[1:33:17] So that was my commitment to it.

[1:33:18] But I did want to get this on the books

[1:33:20] to make that request to have that future work session.

[1:33:27] Those are the things that I wanted to come up with.

[1:33:30] And again, April 17, the Herndon bike race.

[1:33:36] Thank you.

[1:33:38] OK no comments, Mr. mayor.

[1:33:43] For me, so we did receive speaking of inputs

[1:33:49] from community about some of our locations and grass

[1:33:56] and other kinds of things.

[1:33:57] I also have been seeing and I'm sure it's on the list,

[1:34:01] but one of our signs on Alden street by Fairfax County

[1:34:06] on that side, someone must have hit it because it's really,

[1:34:10] broken up.

[1:34:11] Do we have especially on the sign

[1:34:13] like is what's the timing those pillar sign things.

[1:34:18] Oh, anytime.

[1:34:20] Traffic signs knocked down.

[1:34:22] Like, is it a traffic.

[1:34:23] No it's that pseudo brick entryway

[1:34:26] that says welcome to Herndon.

[1:34:27] And it's like, completely askew and everything.

[1:34:30] I'll have staff look at that one.

[1:34:31] And then are we doing like I didn't

[1:34:35] necessarily see the other kinds of tall grasses or whatever.

[1:34:40] Maybe it's at a few other locations.

[1:34:42] This is the heavy mowing season.

[1:34:45] So we get to all of those in a sequence.

[1:34:48] If there are specific locations, we'll take a look at it,

[1:34:51] and we'll look into that as well.

[1:34:53] All right.

[1:34:53] Thank you.

[1:34:55] And if you don't mind, Mr. town manager,

[1:34:57] I'd like to ask Madam town attorney if she

[1:35:01] has an update on parcel h, otherwise

[1:35:05] known as Comstock development.

[1:35:07] Sure I'm sure many of you all, and folks at home

[1:35:13] are aware that the town filed litigation against Comstock

[1:35:16] last year in the Circuit Court of Fairfax

[1:35:20] County seeking return of the Downtown real estate known

[1:35:24] as parcel h.

[1:35:27] The town's been waiting on a decision from Fairfax County

[1:35:30] Circuit Court on the town's motion for summary judgment,

[1:35:35] seeking a resolution to the matter

[1:35:39] without having to go to trial.

[1:35:43] Also, at the same time, there was

[1:35:45] a trial set for September 14.

[1:35:50] Coming up next week.

[1:35:52] Late last week we were contacted.

[1:35:54] The attorneys were contacted by the Circuit Court judge

[1:35:57] for Fairfax County, who advised that she was going

[1:36:01] to be entering an order that would remove the trial

[1:36:08] date of September 14 because she would be issuing

[1:36:11] her opinion, her decision on the town's motion for summary

[1:36:16] judgment very shortly.

[1:36:18] And that would alleviate the need for a trial in the matter.

[1:36:22] So there is no trial pending for September 14.

[1:36:27] We're expecting a decision from the judge very imminently.

[1:36:32] Any decision from the judge, however,

[1:36:35] will be subject to appeal.

[1:36:37] And we will certainly let everyone know when

[1:36:40] that decision comes through.

[1:36:43] Thank you Mr. town manager, do you want

[1:36:46] to close us out with comments.

[1:36:48] I'll just say shout out to my Public Works police,

[1:36:56] both first responders of the storms.

[1:36:58] The past weekend.

[1:36:58] We had a lot of trees down intersections, a lot of folks

[1:37:04] having to stand out in the rain to make

[1:37:05] sure our intersections were safe,

[1:37:07] crews coming in, getting called in to clear trees.

[1:37:10] Big effort.

[1:37:11] And I also want to include in this shout

[1:37:13] out the IT department, because the storm and the power outages

[1:37:17] knocked out our entire network.

[1:37:18] So IT department had a lot of folks coming in

[1:37:21] over the weekend, this past weekend, on a holiday weekend

[1:37:23] to make sure that our systems were up and running.

[1:37:25] Today when we got to the office after the weekend.

[1:37:29] So thanks to town staff.

[1:37:31] Great thank you.

[1:37:34] So we do need to go into a closed meeting.

[1:37:38] Is there a motion to go into closed meeting under the code

[1:37:40] of Virginia, pursuant to the following a closed

[1:37:42] meeting pursuant to the code of Virginia, Section 2.2 3711 A1.

[1:37:47] For discussion of prospective candidates

[1:37:49] relative to appointments to boards and commissions.

[1:37:53] So moved.

[1:37:53] Second OK, I heard you first for the motion,

[1:37:57] and I'll take yours second.

[1:38:00] OK I will ask the clerk to call the roll.

[1:38:03] Council Member.

[1:38:04] Yes council member.

[1:38:05] Garcia yes.

[1:38:06] Council Member.

[1:38:07] Lloyd Lloyd.

[1:38:09] Yes council member.

[1:38:10] Reyes yes.

[1:38:11] Mayor LeBlanc.

[1:38:12] And that LeBlanc is a yes.

[1:38:14] So that carries 5 and 0 with two absent.

[1:38:17] And it is 9:11 PM I. Let's start again

[1:38:21] at 9:15 to allow us to adjust.

[1:38:25]

Town Council Work Session

Agenda

Transcript