[0:00] Heat.

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[0:24] Heat. [music]

[0:35] » [music]

[0:45] » Heat. Heat. [music]

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[1:03] » Call this meeting to order. Please stand for the pledge.

[1:06] » I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the

[1:11] republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and

[1:17] justice for all. >> I was wondering

[1:22] First item up on the agenda today is opportunity for questions and comments

[1:26] from the public. If anyone would like to come up, please come to the mic. State

[1:31] your name and address for the record. >> Which mic?

[1:33] » Uh this one over here is

[1:39] how's it going? Uh my name is Dan. This is my wife Sarah. Um we live on 909 Lime

[1:46] Kilm Pike, 5 minutes away down the street. and we're just trying to make

[1:51] awareness known of an issue that um we experienced last Thursday. Um it rained

[1:57] 3 in I think in about 45 minutes and um in the two years we lived at the house.

[2:03] It never really flooded like the way it did and we had property damage as well

[2:09] as our neighbors. There was property damage that happened. Um, when the rain

[2:14] stopped and I was taking videos and pictures, I walked to the top of the

[2:18] hill where Welsh and Limekllin meet. There's a development being built on the

[2:24] upper Dublin side, Maple Point, and I have videos of, you know, the rain water

[2:30] coming right down the hill off of their giant mounds. Um, there was an upper

[2:35] Dublin cop in the video and I don't know who moved it, but there's like rain

[2:40] barriers that are on the side of their property that someone moved that was

[2:46] redirecting the water right down our street, which flooded us. Um, I called

[2:51] Upper Dublin the day after they directed me to this guy named Tom Felton who was

[2:56] a township engineer. Um, he said basically Upper Dublin doesn't really

[3:01] have any responsibility. as soon as uh the permits are finalized. So, we would

[3:06] have to take up some kind of possible lawsuit with um the builder um Blair or

[3:14] um Maple Point, and I was just seeking more information. and he said they have

[3:21] already installed the rain basins so they should work but my next door

[3:26] neighbor said they might have redirected the water because they were concerned

[3:30] about mud going down the sewer drains. So I was kind of wondering like these

[3:34] things kind of don't add up as far as why they would move the rain barriers

[3:37] and um flood out our property. Um there's a nursery across the street from

[3:42] us. They took pictures, but they had to immediately repair a bridge to their

[3:48] driveway cuz they need to keep operating their business. But I have videos,

[3:52] pictures. Um, we're just seeking um is there some [clears throat] kind of a

[3:59] solution that we can seek? I know Limekllin Pikes is a state road, so it

[4:03] gets maybe a little more complicated, but there's a large amount of rainwater

[4:08] that comes down and you know, our our property is lower than the street. So,

[4:14] we're seeking to make this known and uh in 2 years that happened and I don't

[4:22] want to find out ne the next time it rains like that or harder. So, I'll let

[4:27] my wife Sarah say something. Yeah. Um, we're new homeowners. We've

[4:33] had our house for two years. We got married. March will be two years. So,

[4:39] we're newly relatively newly married. We're the new the newest married in our

[4:43] families. Um, and we're trying to save up to have a family and it makes it a

[4:49] little bit difficult when things in the community that are outside of our

[4:53] control are affecting our budget. um when we're trying to do what we can to

[4:58] invest in our community. We both work within the community. I do hospice. I'm

[5:03] a hospice social worker and my husband is in the pl the plumbing drains

[5:09] industry. And so we have a deep investment in the community both through

[5:14] living in the community, um going to church within the community, um working

[5:19] within the community. Uh and so when we've spoken with our

[5:24] neighbors whom we've become very close with and friendly with, they've all

[5:27] expressed that this has been a growing issue over the years where it formerly

[5:32] was not a problem and then when Lime Pike was subsequently, it sounds like it

[5:38] was raised up in the past where it was formerly lower than the lines of the

[5:45] property. Maybe it was like repaved or something, but they were making comments

[5:49] that it would the lawns were formerly not flooded out. And ever since the road

[5:54] was changed and then the construction started up the road and the water was

[5:58] coming running off of those construction sites that it's become an even bigger

[6:03] problem. And we've noticed that just in the time that the second construction

[6:06] site started development because the the one that started across from the bank

[6:13] was already being built when we moved in. And then when this second one at

[6:18] that intersection broke ground and they started putting the the houses and the

[6:24] developments in, it became significantly worse because now it's not the grass

[6:28] being able to absorb the water. Um, and I think we just kind of want to know if

[6:33] it's appropriate for police to be or whoever moved the rain barricades. I'm

[6:38] not going to allege something that I didn't see, but if it's appropriate for

[6:42] those rain barricades to be redirecting water directly to our properties and

[6:46] local businesses and getting flooded out or if that's something that should be

[6:50] going down the the rain the sewer, what are they called?

[6:54] » Storm drains. >> Storm drains. Thank you.

[6:56] um the storm drains and if there's something that could possibly be done to

[7:01] create more of a long-term fix so that way the community isn't paying the price

[7:05] for builders who've got a lot of money on

[7:08] their hands.

[7:12] » Thank you. [clears throat] >> Thank you.

[7:13] » Yeah. First of all, welcome to Horscham. Thank you. Thank you for choosing

[7:16] Horscham. Um I for Were you speaking? No, I was going to pitch this over to

[7:22] [clears throat] >> I'll and then I'll toss it to the our

[7:25] engineer. Um, so we did call Upper Dublin Township as as you could probably

[7:30] like we had no control enforcement or authority in another township. Um, so I

[7:36] did advise a few residents to call the Montgomery County Conservation District.

[7:40] Um, they do have jurisdiction and authority um on erosion and sediment

[7:46] controls on new developments throughout the county. Um, so I don't know what the

[7:50] outcome of that has been. Um, but the rainstorm is a rarity. Um, the entire

[7:56] town was flooded. Um, my I live off Welsh Road um, closer to Dresser Road.

[8:03] Um, and my neighborhood was flooded. Um, when you get those type of storms, and

[8:10] I'll let Eric talk about the 100redyear storms and all that, it doesn't matter

[8:14] what you have. um what type of basins they get full, the pipes get full,

[8:19] inlets get full. They're only designed to hold so much water. Um so we're lucky

[8:24] in this area of the country that we don't get those floods on a normal

[8:29] basis. Um so like you said, it was 3 in in 2 hours or whatever it was. That's a

[8:35] rarity in this area. Um but we've had them before. Um, and I've lived here

[8:42] most of my life and had, you know, the worst one was 11 in in about 2 hours and

[8:49] um, it was bad. Um, >> so we're fortunate. Um, but I wish I had

[8:55] the answer and the solutions. We don't when we get hit by those storms and it's

[9:00] just not that area of the township and it's just not Horscham Township, it's

[9:06] um, the whole entire area. Um, and luckily, I want to knock on wood. Um,

[9:12] this summer, um, when we've been hit by these major thunderstorms, some odd

[9:17] reason, someone's watching over Horscham, um, we they've gone north,

[9:21] south, and around us, and we've watched on the news the communities where people

[9:26] have lost their homes. So, um, I I um, your situation, I don't know if

[9:32] everything was in place where it should have been. Um, we we did contact Upper

[9:36] Dublin and I would also encourage you to contact the Montgomery County Soil

[9:41] Conservation District. Um, their offices are located in Collegeville. Um, but

[9:47] they're the ones that oversee those new developments and make sure that

[9:51] everything but even if it was when you get hit by a storm like that.

[9:58] » Yeah. Sometimes it just gets mother nature does what mother nature wants to

[10:02] do and it just overtakes even all the erosion and sedimentation controls they

[10:07] have in place. But I'll let Eric talk about

[10:11] » Sorry, can I ask just a clarifying question if you don't mind sharing what

[10:15] kind of damage you sustained at your home because it could like we've had

[10:18] things where it diverted from a corner of our house that's lower. So just

[10:22] thinking about >> So we're saving up to redo the driveway.

[10:26] So, it's a gravel driveway, but basically we've been using stone from my

[10:30] work to sort of fill in where sometimes uh it was low when we first moved in,

[10:36] but it basically created a giant pothole in our driveway and it was and the

[10:41] concrete. Um, and across the street, the nursery, it was a giant hole in the

[10:48] bridge and they had to I have pictures. I'm happy to share them. Um I have

[10:52] videos too, but they didn't really have time to like fight it out in court or

[10:57] whatever. >> Sure. Sure.

[10:59] » We can also come out um if you give us your phone number to Dennis before you

[11:04] leave. Um you know, we can schedule a time like Eric and myself and some

[11:09] others from the township staff can come out and take a look at things. I can

[11:12] tell you um from having spent most of my life here and working here that area of

[11:20] the town is not a typical area where there's flooding problems. So I don't

[11:26] want to sort of like smooth over what you experience but I want to also sort

[11:30] of raise your comfort level being new homeowners that that is not an area

[11:34] where we have concentrated normal flooding problems.

[11:39] » Yeah. if you do come, feel free to take some herbs from the garden. Um, but I

[11:44] think my question would be, is it an appropriate

[11:47] response from the neighboring township of Upper Dublin to have rerouted those

[11:53] large black tubular sandbags to redirect the water down Lime Pike? Um, it

[12:00] effectively [clears throat] stopped traffic moving in a particular

[12:02] direction. And I thought it was quite odd that a storm drain, which is

[12:08] designed to take on water, was being surpassed at the expense of our

[12:14] properties. Our front yard was essentially a river for a couple hours

[12:18] and our neighbor got completely flooded out. Like you couldn't see any grass on

[12:22] their property. And like I said, we've been noticing that water kind of

[12:26] accumulates in our driveway and our neighbors driveways over the two years

[12:30] that we've been in the property. Um, and by no means are we saying that like

[12:35] Horscham needs to take responsibility for acts of God. Um, but is the

[12:40] intentional actions of the neighboring township appropriate? That would be like

[12:45] my most primary concern. >> I don't know. Oh,

[12:49] » yeah. [laughter]

[12:52] » This is Chief Fida. He's our He's our police chief here in Horscham.

[12:56] » So, I saw what you're videotaping in the in the roadway. I don't think that

[13:02] they're they're those large socks that you you know you're you're

[13:05] » So these are the silt socks, >> correct? Silt socks. It looked to me

[13:09] because I was trying to find I live right down the street from you guys

[13:11] trying to find my way home. It looked to me that there was just so much water,

[13:16] storm water buildup on that property that it just pushed these out into the

[13:20] street because I'd love to throw shade at a neighboring police department if I

[13:24] could, but I but they they certainly wouldn't put it across as as you said.

[13:28] It also blocked the entire length of Welsh. So, and I haven't been doing this

[13:33] 25 years. I've seen it happen before where I think I don't I think that was

[13:37] just a rush of water. They do have their storm drains and and whatnot in there,

[13:43] but I like like you were saying, I just think they were overwhelmed. So, I if

[13:46] that helps you, I don't think they intentionally did. I think that was just

[13:49] mother nature doing. >> Thank you, Sarah.

[13:52] » Are they supposed to be tacked in, Eric? >> So, yeah. And so, thank you, Chief, cuz

[13:57] I was going to ask, who did you see move these things? Cuz it wasn't making sense

[14:01] to me that >> I didn't see anybody move them. I just

[14:03] walked to the corner. >> Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't see anybody move

[14:06] them. It just at the corner. The the cop was just conveniently parked right where

[14:12] it was happening. And then like it's obvious in the video it's like

[14:17] » so so these silt socks come in different sizes and they are sized based on the

[14:22] drainage area that are coming to them. Um and what Bill was saying and not to

[14:27] get too nerdy engineer on everybody but like a 100red-year storm is like 8 in

[14:32] over 24 hours right so getting 3 in in an hour the intensity of that far

[14:40] exceeded the hundred-year storm. So like the Namy Creek, the Penny Packac creek

[14:45] probably had no flooding in it, but we get these localized issues. Um, and not

[14:50] to get into a political debate about global warming or not global warming,

[14:53] but we're getting more rain at higher intensities. Who knows why, but we are.

[14:58] Um, and so a lot of these local areas that silt sock was designed for the

[15:03] hundred-year storm to get eight inches over 24 hours and then it gets three in

[15:06] a short period of time and it's just too much pressure, too high of velocity and

[15:11] it blew it out. Um, and I haven't driven past upper Dublin site. It sounds like

[15:16] it's still under construction. It's still bare earth. Um so during

[15:22] construction and you know Bill called me I guess about a year or two ago when the

[15:26] Miracle League field was under construction and said oh you know water

[15:29] went on horse road and it's like well during construction things are sized

[15:33] differently there's more runoff so longterm as that development gets done

[15:39] and grass gets established and those basins get converted to their final form

[15:45] this shouldn't happen again. this might just I know this doesn't like make you

[15:49] feel much better but like of what happened already but it could have just

[15:53] been quoteunquote the perfect storm of under construction three inches in an

[15:57] hour nothing's ever sized to deal with that um but as Bill said um you know you

[16:04] get your name and number certainly happy to go out and see it firsthand um and

[16:10] oftentimes and you said you're below the the elevation of the road um you know

[16:15] because of that you're kind of like a low point. It's a relief point for

[16:18] drainage on the road. And so there might be some just suggestions that I could

[16:21] make, we could make that if it happened again, making sure the water goes around

[16:26] the house and not in the garage or in the basement or whatever else.

[16:29] » Absolutely. >> Thank you.

[16:30] » And the road just the road was paved, I think, in Pendot paved Limekill Pike in

[16:35] 2017, and they only pave every 25 to 30 years, so you're safe. But um they uh

[16:42] they mill. So, um, before they pave, they mill the road down. So, they're not

[16:48] putting asphalt on top of asphalt on top of asphalt, like raising the road. So,

[16:52] it gives that impression like it might might have been raised, but they do mill

[16:56] the road. We do too when we do our road paving. So, we take several inches off

[17:00] of it before we put the new asphalt on. Um, so that that's But it was around

[17:06] 2017 that Pendot [music] paved Limekill Pike. The issue that my next door

[17:10] neighbor was talking about with that is they made the asphalt into almost like a

[17:16] like a rounded curb. It's like this high off of the grade of the street and it's

[17:23] like a it looks like it might be a good idea, but it in practice of the rain, it

[17:27] like literally like ramps it into the into the yard in the driveway.

[17:31] » So that was like he was like that this didn't happen before where it sits. We

[17:35] can take a look like if like um when we come out to visit we could take a look

[17:40] at that and it's PennDOT's road but we can also make phone calls to Pendot to

[17:46] suggest them doing different things to try to help out. And then my last

[17:50] comment would be so for work I'll get calls where an older home got flooded

[17:56] out at being a lower point when they just built a brand new development right

[18:01] across the street and they will say our basement never flooded out and now like

[18:05] it looks like the groundwater has nowhere to go because they built a brand

[18:08] new neighborhood and like obviously how you going to prove that in the in the

[18:13] scenario of us living there for 2 years but I just wanted to throw that onto the

[18:17] record of uh I've seen it plenty of times at work. So, um, thank you.

[18:23] » Um, adding on to what Dan said and then I had just one last question. Um,

[18:28] there's also instances where he's told me about clients where the rainwater is

[18:32] so significant on the property, the front property where the main drain is

[18:36] that it causes the yard to sink and effectively damages the main drain pipe.

[18:41] Um, which you get perks having a husband who's in the plumbing industry and he's

[18:46] like camered our line and made sure that everything's good. Um, we don't have any

[18:50] surrounding trees that could possibly have roots come into our line. We took

[18:54] out the biggest one that was anywhere near it. Um, and so like that would be a

[18:59] concern as well that if the if over time if the rain is not mitigated off of our

[19:04] lawn and it's just kind of coming off of the street and onto our lawn, whether

[19:08] it's one of a 100redyear storm or greater than or just standard rain

[19:14] coming off of the street continually with no storm drains or anything like

[19:18] that that it could potentially incur a substantial cost um to us and the

[19:24] surrounding neighborhood. My question would be if Thank you, Chief, for

[19:29] providing the clarity. Um, I know that in the medical world, it's very easy for

[19:34] things to appear one way and then they really are a different way. It's my job

[19:38] as a social worker to clear those confusions up a lot of the time. Um,

[19:42] would it be a realistic action step that if we see that happen

[19:47] in the future where the salt bags, I think you called them,

[19:51] » salt socks. >> Salt suck. Okay.

[19:53] » Salt sock. It sounds good. Um, [laughter]

[19:56] if a salt sock is coming into the road, blocking storm drains or redirecting

[20:02] water onto the properties of us that are beneath the construction site, would it

[20:06] be a an appropriate action step to call the non-emergent 911 and ask that it be

[20:13] moved so that way the rain can go in the appropriate channels? Um, that would be

[20:18] my only ask. Like if something's where it shouldn't be and it's causing damage,

[20:22] if we could n it. >> I'd say the rationale to call would be

[20:26] that it's blocking the roadway and could cause an accident. So the call still

[20:30] happens, whatever the outcome would be. >> That's why I was confused. The cop that

[20:35] the police officer sitting there that's why it looked kind of intentional, but

[20:39] I'm not trying to I didn't see it happen, but just it felt like why why

[20:44] leave >> just to defend even though the chief

[20:46] doesn't want me to. the Upper Dublin Police Department. Um, those silt socks

[20:51] are very heavy, especially when there's water in there. So, the police officer

[20:55] would not have been able to by himself move it,

[20:58] » right? Like it would need like construction equipment to do it. So, if

[21:02] you saw it during a storm, you could call, but like the the logistics of

[21:07] getting someone out there in the middle of a storm to move it might not be

[21:10] possible either. And I'm just speaking for

[21:14] someone who I don't know, right? Just the logistics of if there's no one on

[21:19] site in a construction vehicle, it would the response time. I don't even know if

[21:23] the police would have someone they could call that would be able to get out

[21:26] there. Public works. All right. For public works might be able to do it.

[21:30] » Well, life is complicated. Life has in our country has become complicated. Um,

[21:36] you know, back in the 80s and 90s, life was much simpler. Um, even for local

[21:41] government. um back in the 80s and 90s a police officer probably would try to

[21:47] move that or public works would come with a backhoe and move it out of the

[21:52] road. Um now um because of the society that we live in um very latigious

[21:59] society very um in insuranceminded society um what happens with those

[22:05] construction sites is um the township this in this case it would be upper

[22:10] Dublin Township they have emergency contacts.

[22:14] So it um normally what happens is something like that happens, the

[22:18] township has to call the emergency contact for that development project and

[22:24] they have to respond. Um I don't you know how long it takes them to respond?

[22:29] Did Upper Dublin call them? I don't know all those details, but that's how it

[22:32] works in Horscham. If one of our employees goes and moves that, then

[22:38] workers comp gets involved >> and then they start asking us questions.

[22:44] Why did you have your staff do that? Now you have an injured employee. So now all

[22:48] of a sudden we have a workers's comp insurance company that gets involved. So

[22:53] again, it it's so it gets so life is complicated. Um so uh we do the best we

[23:01] can. Um, but that's the process we follow in Horscham with the new

[23:04] development project is we have emergency numbers and contact numbers and when

[23:08] something like that happens, our police have them, our fire company, our public

[23:12] works, our code enforcement, and they make those phone calls and says, "Hey,

[23:15] get someone out here right away and get your silk sock back on your property."

[23:20] Um, is how it works in the 2026. Um, 1986, our people would have just moved

[23:28] it. [laughter] Um but um but uh you know you you talk

[23:33] about your uh your plumbing pipe and stuff and um you know sinking and stuff

[23:38] like that. Um it's it's I I don't want to say the joys of home

[23:43] ownership, but it's it's all about insurance and and Dan, you probably know

[23:49] like you know you got to check your homeowners insurance of what they cover

[23:52] and what they don't cover. And most of the time, basic homeowners insurance

[23:56] does not cover that line from the house to the street. So that's an additional

[24:01] coverage that you have to have to protect yourselves. So um it's

[24:06] » I tell people about it every day. >> Okay. [laughter]

[24:10] » Um what would be an appropriate amount of time to expect something like that to

[24:14] be moved? Like in within what time frame would it be? Like I want to give people

[24:19] grace. Like we get grace from God. I want to give people grace. So what is an

[24:25] appropriate time frame that we could expect something like that to happen? I

[24:29] know that it's not in Horscham Township. You can't speak for it on a official

[24:33] capacity, but within Horscham on construction sites, what is a

[24:38] reasonable time for that to be remediated so that way we could apply

[24:42] that in situations moving forward? >> I I mean in this situation it was

[24:48] Thursday night at like 6:00. If it was in Horscham, calls would have been made

[24:52] that night and I would expect the next morning at some point the next day a

[24:56] contractor would be out there moving it. Now, if it was in blocking traffic,

[25:00] right, that might, you know, hey, no, we can't wait. You've closed the road here.

[25:04] We got bigger issues. They might have been able to get someone out there, but

[25:07] again, it's based on the contractor. So, giving grace, I would say the next day

[25:11] for something like that because for a contractor, it's not a big deal, right?

[25:15] For us sitting in the room, it would be a big deal to move that. But for all

[25:18] intents and purposes, that's any of these time frames is essentially well

[25:22] after the rain has conceivably stopped. >> Yeah. Yeah. They're not coming out in

[25:25] the middle of the storm 30 minutes later to move it. It's likely that no one's

[25:30] that close that's going to be able to get there. And um you know, I was

[25:34] driving around Blue Bell, not right there, and there was roads closed

[25:37] nowhere near construction because the area was flooded. So, um there's also

[25:44] that to keep in mind that the logistics of someone even getting there depending

[25:47] on how bad it was. Yeah.

[25:52] » But again, give your names and number >> to Dennis and we can set something up.

[25:57] » Thank you very much. >> All right. Thank you.

[26:03] Other

[26:08] questions or comments from the public while

[26:17] uh next item up is for the approval of the list of checks. Any commentary on

[26:22] this beforehand? I move to approve the list of checks in

[26:27] all funds from August 21st, 2026 to August 26, 2026 [music] in the amount of

[26:33] $244,371.76

[26:38] and further move to authorize payment of seam. Second been moved and seconded.

[26:44] This is a voice vote. All those in favor, please say I. I. Any opposed?

[26:49] honestly. Uh, next item up is to render a decision

[26:54] on the Ross Eve Corporation Kurov Ernest Defavic 1026 Lime Kilm Pike conditional

[27:00] use application 26-06-CU.

[27:06] Oh, I I had a note. Turn it over to Mr. Walco.

[27:08] » Thank you, Madam President. Uh as you recall, council held a public hearing on

[27:11] this conditional use application at the uh last uh public meeting and at this

[27:16] time this uh decision is now before the board. I'd uh make a recommendation

[27:23] uh for a motion that the board grant the conditional use application uh with the

[27:28] following conditions. Uh first, that the applicant comply with all testimony

[27:31] exhibits presented by the applicant at the hearing on the application unless

[27:35] otherwise amended by uh councel. The two that the applicant comply with all

[27:41] provisions of all statutes, laws, regulations, rules, codes, and

[27:45] ordinances of United States, the Commonwealth, Horscham Township, and any

[27:48] other municipal agency having jurisdiction, including the uh D and the

[27:52] Horscham Water and Sewer Authority. Three, that the applicant submit a

[27:56] corridor management plan deemed satisfactory to the Horscham Township

[27:59] Engineer. four that the applicant comply with all applicable requirements of land

[28:04] development plan approval for the property uh as established by the

[28:08] township and as applicable and comply with the Horian Township zoning hearing

[28:13] board decision 257 which is again relevant to this project. So those would

[28:17] be the four conditions um that would be subject to a motion to grant the

[28:21] approval.

[28:25] Any other questions or comments from anyone on council? Or do we have a

[28:29] motion?

[28:32] » I move to approve the conditional use application for

[28:37] Rossi. Am I pronouncing that correctly? Corporation Care of Ernest Stefc 1026

[28:42] Limekilm Pike 26-06-CU.

[28:47] » Second. >> Moved and seconded. This is a roll call

[28:50] vote. >> Mr. McCarti, how do you vote?

[28:53] » I. Dr. Patterson, how do you vote? I. >> Miss Thompson, how do you vote?

[28:56] » I. >> Miss Chunky, how do you vote?

[28:58] » I. >> And Miss Staff, how do you vote?

[29:00] » I. >> Motion passes unanimously.

[29:05] » Next item up is to consider a resolution approving financing by the Horscham

[29:10] Industrial and Commercial Development Authority to provide funding for the

[29:13] Gratz College project. >> Just a quick explanation um because

[29:18] people might be wondering why our authority is providing funding for Gratz

[29:23] College. So our um industrial and commercial development authority is set

[29:28] up by state law. Um ours was set up in 1978

[29:32] and uh it follows um the state industrial and commercial development

[29:37] authority laws as well as the economic development laws of the state and uh

[29:42] these authorities and the state laws were set up to provide economic

[29:46] development opportunities across the state. Um and so our authority has the

[29:54] legal authority to provide for taxexempt um interest rates um low interest rate

[30:01] loans for projects across the Commonwealth um not just Horscham

[30:05] Township. And as you know we've done others in the past. Our authority has

[30:09] done for Gwennet Mercy. Um, this one for Gratz College, as we all know, is in

[30:15] Sheltonham Township currently. Uh, they are relocating to Lower Marian Township

[30:21] and have um an economic uh academic uh facility that they have to construct

[30:28] down in Lower Marian and Ardmore. Um, and they are looking for um tax exempt

[30:34] funding and low interest rate funding to for the project. So, our authority met

[30:39] in on August 12th. They had a public hearing um and then followed by a public

[30:45] meeting and they have [clears throat] um voted to authorize up to $6 million of

[30:51] funding uh to Gratz College. Again, we are we are uh the our authority is a

[30:58] middle bypass. There's no there's no um financial hardship on us. It's not us

[31:06] taking out a $6 million loan. It's not $6 million passing through us. It's all

[31:12] done through the state laws, their economic uh state laws, the IRS code um

[31:18] that provides provides Gratz College then to go get this taxexempt um

[31:24] financing. So, uh nothing's on our sheets um our audit sheets or anything.

[31:30] It doesn't hurt the township. If Gratz College doesn't pay back the loan, we're

[31:33] not involved with that. It doesn't hurt us in any way with our credit rating or

[31:38] bond rating. So, um staff recommendation is that you also um approve this

[31:46] funding. >> Are there any questions or comments from

[31:50] anyone on council or do we have a motion?

[31:55] I move to adopt the resolution as proposed approving issuance by the

[32:00] Horscham Industrial and Commercial Development Authority of its revenue

[32:04] notes in a principal amount not to exceed $6 million for Gratz College.

[32:10] » Second moved and seconded. This is also a roll call vote.

[32:14] » Mr. McCarti, how do you vote? I. >> Dr. Patterson, how do you vote?

[32:17] » I. >> Miss Thompson, how do you vote?

[32:19] » I. >> Miss Chunky, how do you vote?

[32:21] » I. >> And Miss Laf, how do you vote?

[32:22] » I. Motion passes unanimously.

[32:28] » Um, next item up is to review the zoning hearing board applications to be heard

[32:32] in September. There are two this evening.

[32:36] » Uh, yes. Uh, your first one um is a business commercial. It's located in our

[32:42] R six uh zoning district um retirement prosperity group at 424 Dresser Road. I

[32:49] won't go into a introduction because their council here is tonight. Mr.

[32:54] Serria is going to present their application to you this evening.

[32:58] » Thank you very much. Uh yes, my name is Rob Sia from Elliot Greenleaf on behalf

[33:03] of the applicants uh Lisa and Daniel Baram and their their company uh

[33:08] Retirement Prosperity Group. I am joined tonight uh by the applicant Lisa as well

[33:12] as the architect on the project Jeff Famma as well as the engineer Jun Pac.

[33:17] Um the application's pretty straightforward. Uh we're proposing a

[33:20] 750 foot uh square foot addition uh to the existing non-conforming structure.

[33:26] Uh and that's to accommodate ADA compliant restrooms. Uh what I call a

[33:30] conference room, but it's really a larger uh receptionist area to greet

[33:34] clients as they come in and as well as converting the existing barn on the

[33:38] property into an additional uh kind of office meeting space, not necessarily

[33:42] offices themselves. Um due to the the site uh and the various setbacks and the

[33:48] widening of the road, it's an extremely narrow building envelope. It's

[33:51] approximately 15 feet deep, which is why the the structure is non-conforming. Um

[33:56] so in order to accommodate the uh the proposed addition, we're expanding

[34:01] laterally and then slightly into the rear yard setback. And that's mainly for

[34:04] those bathrooms. Um because of that, we're requesting three points of relief.

[34:09] The first is to um to expand into that rear yard setback. The second one is to

[34:14] reduce the number of required parking spaces um because of the the conversion

[34:18] of the barn and the additional square footage. The parking calculations um in

[34:22] our opinion are are a little high um based on the number of employees, the

[34:26] fact that they usually only see one or two clients at a time. We're proposing

[34:29] 18 spaces. Um so we would we a sea of parking as is and we don't anticipate

[34:34] needing any more parking than there currently is even though we are adding

[34:37] additional spots already. And then additionally, because it's an existing

[34:41] um non-conforming, there's a provision in the code that allows you to expand up

[34:45] to 25%. Um we're requesting to expand to 28.3% and part of that also is uh as a

[34:52] result of the additional square footage from the barn. Um so we're here tonight

[34:55] to answer any questions that you may have. Um and of course we we'd love a

[34:59] letter of support, but if the board council decides to stay neutral, that's

[35:02] that's acceptable as well. council

[35:08] was recently there on a tour. So, um I know I think your husband or you were

[35:14] there in the hospital with my son.

[35:19] » It's okay. >> So, I know they're very familiar with

[35:21] the property. >> Um and the staff recommendation on this

[35:25] one, Mr. >> This um staff recommendation would be

[35:30] neutral. Um, and if they do get as a if they do get their variances, they would

[35:36] be back in front of you with some type of level of land development, whether

[35:40] it's a waiver, minor, or full, but it they would be back in front of you. But

[35:46] the staff's recommendation would be neutral.

[35:50] » Well, in alignment with that.

[35:56] » All right. Thank you.

[36:12] Thanks.

[36:22] » Okay.

[36:25] Next item up is Benjamin and Nicole Hoover, 322 West Morland A.

[36:30] » The next one is a residential and our R4 zoning district. Um they they they

[36:35] jumped ahead a little bit um and and got in their um basketball court before u

[36:41] they knew um about um zoning and and um fig and we figured out that there was an

[36:48] impervious coverage issue. So, this isn't a scale um but this is what they

[36:53] submitted in their application. But you can see the basketball court in the rear

[36:57] of the house um and that has been built and it's an impervious coverage where

[37:04] they're allowed 25%. Um and uh they would be at and are at

[37:11] 28.7% with the basketball court. Um they have

[37:16] I don't know if it's up yet or not. Um they aside from this zoning, they have

[37:20] um um put in a fence application for a 6-ft privacy fence in their rear yard. I

[37:26] don't know if that's done yet or not, but unrelated to this application. It's

[37:30] just FYI. Also, you'll see in your application um they did um hire an

[37:36] engineer, Protra Engineering. Um they have committed [music] to um a uh

[37:42] seepage pit um uh designed engineered designed um so I I they met um with

[37:52] Kelsey and and Mike Shinton and myself and u we were on their property we met

[37:57] with them. You know, I I do in this case feel that um they um just got ahead of

[38:05] things and nothing was intentional and um that they're genuine in trying to

[38:12] correct their mistake by submitting a zoning hearing board application by

[38:17] hiring an engineer. Um usually at this percentage, as you know, uh the

[38:22] homeowners don't hire engineers. Um so they've hired an engineer and um he's

[38:28] designing either a stone seepage bed system or a surface stormwater storage

[38:34] area um to help with the impervious coverage um um and I think the staff

[38:41] recommendation is neutral um with the condition that um the storm water

[38:45] control feature is installed.

[38:50] » Any questions, comments from council? Are we

[38:53] in agreement? >> Yes.

[38:56] » Okay. All right.

[39:01] Uh, next item up is to review a request for a waiver of land development from

[39:05] the Ukrainian American Sports Center, one lower state road to construct a

[39:10] synthetic turf field 23-07-W. >> As everyone is very familiar with the

[39:16] Ukrainian Club at lower state and county line. Um, been in town a long time. just

[39:22] had their festival this past weekend that I heard was a great success. Um so

[39:27] um they have done this in the past. Um they've converted some grass fields to

[39:31] art, um synthetic turf, artificial turf, whatever you like to call it. Um and

[39:36] they are looking to do it again to convert some of grass fields to

[39:41] artificial synthetic turf. Um and in Horscham we've always considered these

[39:46] projects even ourselves our own Horsesh soccer association the Miracle Field

[39:51] Hatport Horscham School District they've all been in front of you for a waiver of

[39:55] land development for um turf fields and they are present this evening to review

[40:02] um your their request to get a waiver of land development from you.

[40:08] So, if you want to just make sure that's on.

[40:12] There you go. And just I I got your what you sent us today. So, you just tell me

[40:17] to flip flat back and forth and just explain your project and what you want

[40:22] to do. >> Great. So, my name is Amanda Rose. I'm

[40:24] an engineer with Tarquette Sports Design. Um, sorry.

[40:29] » Move the mic, too. It >> Hello. Okay. Great. My name is Amanda

[40:34] Rose. I'm an engineer with Tarquet Sports Design and um we're all familiar

[40:39] with Ukrainian Sports Center site. So we have an existing conditions presentation

[40:44] up there and it's three grass sports fields with existing sports lighting. Um

[40:50] you could change the and as you can see we're going to turf

[40:54] we're proposing to turf two of the fields and then use the top soil to

[40:59] raise the third field. Um we have NPDS coverage already for this site and

[41:07] we are just looking for a waiver of land development. Um same use.

[41:12] Um there is some pedestrian access to the lower field and that is

[41:17] ADA compliant. It also connects to the upper turf fields. There is a pathway

[41:22] around the field, bleacher pads, sports lighting, and we have a path for um

[41:27] maintenance vehicles to access.

[41:33] » I think um one thing that I I know internally at the staff and I brought up

[41:38] to Dan, do you guys want to introduce yourselves too just so we know

[41:43] » who's sitting in front of us? >> Sure. Uh my name is Joe in Piriali. I'm

[41:47] I'm a board member for the Philadelphia Ukrainian Nationals, a volunteer and

[41:51] I'll let Mr. Nisher. >> Yeah.

[41:53] » Uh introduce yourself as well. >> Just share the space. [laughter]

[41:58] » Yeah. That's funny. >> Does this work as well?

[42:03] » I'm Dan Nes. I I sit on the Philadelphia Ukrainian Nationals board and the

[42:10] Ukrainian American Sports Center board and um been all day, all weekend at the

[42:15] festival. Thank you for mentioning the festival.

[42:18] » Um the one issue and I'll let Eric um talk about the review letter, but I

[42:23] think at at the staff level is is this um you mentioned about the trail and and

[42:30] stuff and it's called it's it's mentioned in the Gilmore review letter

[42:34] where you you do all the ADA compliance around the field. You had the but you

[42:40] end right here. And it suggested if if you went

[42:47] full land development, you'd be required under our land development code to take

[42:52] this to the driveway. So someone in a wheelchair um could be dropped off here,

[42:58] get on the asphalt path um and get there um to the spectator area or the

[43:06] sideline. Um, so, um, that's a requirement in our land development

[43:13] ordinance and that was mentioned in our engineers review letter that there's no

[43:18] connection there. >> So, the club is planning on putting a

[43:23] pathway there. That will just be after the turf fields are constructed, but

[43:27] they will be doing that. And the area leading from the path that we show to

[43:32] the parking is already ADA compliant. It's under 5% slope. So, we see no

[43:37] issues with them.

[43:40] » Can you identify where that path is? >> Um, so I actually have

[43:44] » another plan. >> Are we able to like stick one on

[43:49] » I have to I don't know if it's on one of these plans. Is it on one of these?

[43:53] » No. No. I just Okay. >> Sorry.

[43:56] » Um, >> I can try. I can try.

[43:59] » You like zoom in to just >> Do we have the pointer? I guess the

[44:03] question is why do it afterwards and not do it while the contractor who's putting

[44:07] all the other stuff's there. >> Um

[44:10] » yeah, I I I think that's a kind of a to be honest a continuity of of planning um

[44:17] type of operation. I came in as a volunteer

[44:22] um when this project was under a different design builder.

[44:28] um we weren't having a ton of um successful progress. Um we spent um just

[44:37] an inordinate amount of time with the conservation district. Um

[44:43] over a year um trying to get um our permit in this respect. Um getting this

[44:52] financed and approved has really been our attention. it was drawn to our

[44:56] attention in the Gilmore letter that we need to make this connection. So, we did

[45:01] make the request uh that we get a plan for that. Um and that is our intention.

[45:07] Um and the question was would we do it after we would have target do it as part

[45:15] of this project? It's not part of these plans that we've bied about for the last

[45:22] two years, but we have had them come in and and create a new plan in order to

[45:28] have a path that fully extends. And it would be our intention to have that

[45:33] these fields open with that plan that that path completed.

[45:37] » So, I know it's not shown on this plan. So, if I'm understanding you, if I'm

[45:42] understanding things, it's going to be done. it just will be the last thing

[45:47] that is done with this project. So if council um if council agrees to give you

[45:53] a waiver of land development, one of the conditions of that will be that path

[45:58] continuing and finishing to the driveway.

[46:01] » Yeah, we're we're fully comfortable and committed to that. And um yes,

[46:07] » just a quick question. So is it going to connect to the path that you're saying

[46:11] goes to the parking lot? It's going right right to the driveway and driveway

[46:16] goes to the parking lot. >> I guess someone

[46:19] » what she was saying is the slopes right now allow it to be ADA compliant. The

[46:25] surface itself is not ADA compliant until they put the trail in.

[46:29] » Does that make sense? >> I think so. But do we

[46:33] is it Sorry. If there's a connection directly to a parking lot versus

[46:38] directly to the to the driveway, does that accomplish the same goal or it

[46:46] has to connect to >> what driveway? Can you point I'm sorry.

[46:48] Can you show me what >> this is? This is this is lower state

[46:51] road here. So, this is your driveway in there. Parking lots over here.

[46:55] » There's another small parking lot, I believe. Keep going

[47:00] up right there. Whoop. Nope. Isn't there another small parking lot right next to

[47:04] the building there? >> No. The um the the bridge right there

[47:08] goes over the little creek below right there.

[47:11] » Yep. >> There's a pathway on both sides of that.

[47:14] » There's a white barrier there. So, there is a walkway there that's ADA compliant

[47:19] right now that goes right to the driveway, right to the parking lot

[47:24] » and that would extend right right to the turf. the um

[47:29] » I've directed parking during tournaments before and I thought there was some

[47:32] handicapped parking >> in that area. Is that

[47:36] » like for special events? Oh, it's grass. >> Got it. Thank you.

[47:40] » Yeah. >> And we did park on a grass festival.

[47:45] » So or they they would meet our ordinance that they bring this trail out to the

[47:49] driveway. So someone in, let's just use someone with their wheelchair could be

[47:53] dropped off here and then the car could go park in the parking lot in the

[47:56] handicap and then pick them up, you know, when they're done. As long as the

[48:01] wheelchair has that accessibility that >> it, you know, as as it was mentioned,

[48:06] the slope is fine, but the surface is not. And but they've already you you've

[48:12] agreed to put it in. So, you've agreed to put that trail connection in, path

[48:17] connection into the driveway, and that'll be a condition of their um

[48:25] your approval if if you pass the resolution. That was one issue. I don't

[48:30] know if Eric, if there's any other >> I mean, that was the this was our fourth

[48:34] review, so it really got narrowed down. So, I think just the condition that they

[48:37] comply with our August 10th letter, which includes that comment, is all you

[48:42] guys need to do. And then we'll make sure at the end of construction that

[48:46] that path's in there. >> So, and I want to confirm that as well

[48:49] that that path will be installed prior to use of this field. Is that our

[48:55] understanding? Okay. >> Yes.

[48:58] » I can Are we Are we still the way question?

[49:01] » Okay. I have another question. I'm just curious cuz you mentioned that they're

[49:05] going to take the um soil that's going to get scooped up when you put the turf

[49:10] field down and move it and raise elevate the other field. Is there any

[49:17] environmental engineering questions, concerns of changing

[49:22] elevation and slope, etc., etc., on that lot?

[49:26] » No. And and like they told you, they've been through the conservation district

[49:29] for longer than they ever imagined it would have taken. Um,

[49:33] » was it in relation to that? Is that what that was about?

[49:36] » So, they need they need what you call an MPDES permit, which is a environmental

[49:40] permit that D issues through the conservation district. Um, so although

[49:44] they're raising it, they're not they're this artificial turf fields act like

[49:48] impervious because the water goes right through and right off. From a stormwater

[49:53] perspective, they're not really changing disorder

[49:57] characteristics. A that slopes a little higher, but they're not adding runoff

[50:01] and and these guys know the conservation district probably made you change the CN

[50:06] numbers. So, you know, so they have taken care of any kind of stormwater

[50:11] concerns through that process um with raising that field.

[50:15] » Okay. But this stormwater cons concerns really because of the increase in

[50:21] impervious coverage by the artificial fields.

[50:23] » Correct. that that is the main driver of the storm water on this project, not

[50:27] raising that field. >> It's sort of almost identical to our

[50:32] horse and soccer association when they put their artificial turf in. Uh they

[50:36] moved all the soil to one of their other fields and they raised that field um as

[50:42] part of their project.

[50:46] They also needed an NPDS permit um to for their project.

[50:53] And so those were you've already received those then?

[50:55] » We have. Yes. >> Okay.

[50:59] » So what will happen now is council's next meeting is September 9th. Um the

[51:03] solicitor will prepare a resolution for council to consider um the waiver

[51:08] approving the waiver at their September 9th meeting. Um based upon this

[51:13] discussion this evening. Um, in the meantime, um, I can get a

[51:18] pre-construction meeting scheduled, um, while we wait for September 9th to come

[51:23] and so we can have that scheduled and ready to go right after, um, September

[51:28] 9th.

[51:31] » Great. >> That's [laughter] great.

[51:33] » Thank you. >> We're excited to start. Thank you.

[51:36] » Yeah. Thank you very much. >> Yeah.

[51:39] » All right. Thank you very much. >> Thank you.

[51:43] say perogi's for everybody, right? [laughter]

[51:46] » I love me perogi.

[51:50] » Okay, so next item up is just to announce that our next Horscham Township

[51:54] Council meeting will be held on Wednesday, September 9th at 6:00 p.m. Uh

[51:59] farmers market is every Sunday, June through October, 10 to 1 at the library.

[52:04] Horscham Restaurant Week is September 13th to the 18th. I believe there's

[52:09] already been some advertisements about it on social media, so you can find the

[52:14] full list of participating restaurants there. Carpenter Cross Bike Race is at

[52:21] Chestnut Creek Park September 19th, 8:00 a.m. to 400 p.m. And our eco event, eco

[52:28] event, tree giveaway, e-waste, and shredding will take place at the

[52:32] municipal complex right here. Um, October 3rd. Well, in the parking lot,

[52:37] not like here. Here. October 3rd, uh, 900 am to 11 am. And with that meeting,

[52:42] » and I would just say if you haven't been to the Carpenter Park, um, and it's

[52:46] become, and I'll let maybe Dennis say a few words about it, but it has become a

[52:51] destination bike race where we have people from sometimes four to six

[52:56] different states coming to the race. Um, Dennis started this um, and has done a

[53:02] great job uh, with it. And um but I would encourage you when I I'm not I

[53:08] don't bike race. So when he first started this um event um and I I saw all

[53:14] the yellow tape I was like what you know um but I went and watched and it's

[53:19] really fun just to watch just to watch the bike racers and doing their thing.

[53:24] But let Dennis say a few words. Yeah. So um we're fortunate enough to be a part

[53:29] of the um Pennsylvania state um cycle cross series. So that brings out a lot

[53:34] of people from uh different states around us. It's always cool to see the

[53:39] heat map from when people register. It's all the way from Connecticut down to um

[53:44] Lake Virginia area and uh for two years in a row. I remember we had a gentleman

[53:49] from Colorado. Um he was here for work, but he liked it so much that he timed

[53:55] his work to be here again the next year so he could race in the race. And um

[54:00] it's really shaping up for this year. We're really excited because we're very

[54:05] very fortunate to be able to have our third

[54:10] um different race in a different park which is like unheard of. So it's the

[54:15] trifecta this year and uh it's going to be at Chestnut Creek Park and we're

[54:20] really looking forward to it and um it's our eighth year so it's kind of crazy.

[54:25] I'm really looking forward to the 10th. Um,

[54:29] but ju let's just hope that it's a nice sunny day and the weather's nice.

[54:33] » And we appreciate the Hawks football program. Uh, they're they're working

[54:36] with us and they're away that weekend. So, um,

[54:40] » we appreciate them working with us. >> Thank you for all the work you put into

[54:45] planning that. It's awesome. >> All our kids. No, I'm kidding.

[54:50] » Well, maybe not. Not me. Um, no, I meant I'm not kidding because I

[54:54] will sign Henry up. >> Oh, but I won't be here. Anyho

[54:57] [laughter]

[54:59] um okay and with that meeting is journed.

Horsham Township Council Meeting 8.26.26

Transcript