[0:01] Good evening and welcome to the May 26th meeting of the Madison, Indiana Historic

[0:04] District Review Board. My name is Chris Cody and let the record show that board

[0:08] members Bill Jewell, Jared Anderson, and Happy Smith are present along with city

[0:13] staff Brenna Hailey and we have a new member of city staff who I believe is

[0:17] going to introduce himself.

[0:23] » Good evening. My name is Chris Layton. I'm the new building and mint inspector

[0:27] and happy to be here. I'll help out any way

[0:31] Thank you. >> Thank you very much, Mr. Layton.

[0:35] We will conduct this meeting by having applicants come forward to the podium.

[0:38] City staff will then review their application as it was submitted to the

[0:42] city. Then applicants will have the opportunity to address the board.

[0:45] Following the applicant's presentation, board members may ask the applicant

[0:49] questions, then the applicant will be dismissed.

[0:52] The public will then have the opportunity to comment on the

[0:54] application, following which the board will deliberate and vote.

[0:58] Please remember that all applications are evaluated solely for their

[1:01] compliance with the Madison Historic District Design Guidelines and restrict

[1:05] your comments to relevant matters. Thank you very much, everyone, for being

[1:08] here this evening. Brenna, please begin with the first application.

[1:14] » So, our first application on the agenda is 1229

[1:18] West Main Street and that one remains on the table. So, our next one

[1:24] will be City of Madison project, a request to build an amphitheater in

[1:30] Bicentennial Park at 101 East Second Street.

[1:34] » Good evening, board. My name is Tony Steinheart,

[1:37] deputy mayor and director of economic and redevelopment. Tonight we're here

[1:41] and happy to present to you a project that was in the Madison

[1:45] Destination Plan and has received great support from our

[1:51] region through our regional development commission Um, and uh,

[1:57] has been receiving uh, good comments from the committee that was put together

[2:01] uh, to review both the uh, design as well as the needs for the

[2:06] professional uh, tours. So, the goal of this project was to

[2:10] develop a amphitheater uh, for 2026 standards and expectations for both

[2:16] patrons and performers and to enhance the accessibility and safety uh, of the

[2:21] park for all. Um, we wanted to develop

[2:28] » Let the record show that uh, board member Jed Skillman has now joined us.

[2:33] » We um, we wanted to develop uh,

[2:37] a a theater that was flexible uh, for both local as well as the

[2:42] national acts and we wanted to provide a facility that

[2:45] was as transparent as possible um, for the neighborhood and the

[2:50] citizens of Madison on the other 340 days, pick a number, three whatever

[2:55] number that is, uh, when it's not in use. This this is intended to be a park

[2:59] that it's engaging uh, throughout the entire year. We think the design will

[3:03] open up new opportunities for uses in the park um,

[3:07] as well as give amenities to again those patrons and performers that

[3:12] expect in 2026 for for uh, acts. So, at this time I'd like to introduce

[3:18] um, uh, Jeff De Smith to talk through uh,

[3:22] our design work from Access Studio Axis and answer any questions you have on

[3:39] » Good evening.

[3:43] Make sure this comes up here.

[4:16] » Now it's just not going over.

[4:19] Like that. >> It's the connected piece.

[4:22] Let's see.

[4:32] » Yeah, will the gray one reach?

[4:37] Oh, we're on wheels. There we go. Perfect.

[4:46] Yeah. This is where it should go.

[4:52] Okay, now it's just pushed in. Okay, let's see.

[4:57] Yep.

[5:02] There we go. Perfect. All right.

[5:05] Thanks. Uh my name's Jeff De Smith uh with Studio Axis in in Indianapolis. I'm

[5:10] happy to be here to kind of walk you guys through um where we're at from a

[5:13] current design standpoint um on both the uh stage frame and the um accessory

[5:19] building and then more than happy to to get your uh

[5:22] feedback and comments. Um so just quickly to kind of walk you

[5:25] through from an orientation standpoint um the updated site. So, one of the

[5:30] things that we really looked at um in kind of reimagining what this

[5:35] would be is how can we provide um some additional

[5:39] features for the park, you know, upgraded restrooms,

[5:44] um you you upgraded uh electric and audio visual

[5:48] infrastructure for the actual stage to really enhance what the city can do

[5:54] from a like, you know, weekly and monthly use standpoint without the need

[5:58] to kind of rent and bring in a bunch of extra equipment. So,

[6:01] part of that research was really looking at how do we

[6:05] center the stage building, get it closer to where a future building

[6:10] might want to go. And in looking through all of those

[6:14] different aspects, it ended up to where kind of centering

[6:19] the kind of stage and the main viewing area kind of between Central and and and

[6:26] and West seemed to be the the right move so that we could keep a building that

[6:31] was still close enough to be able to provide that infrastructure,

[6:34] but a long West Street out of the kind of visual line of sight

[6:40] that you would see from First Street or even from Vaughn Drive if you're looking

[6:43] back back up. Um,

[6:46] so in this site plan here, you'll see that there's a revised kind of parking

[6:51] layout up here at the north end. One of the things that this does is kind

[6:54] of reestablish that neighborhood edge. This is one of this is the only block

[7:00] along First where the sidewalk is not continuous from corner to corner.

[7:05] Parking here right now is front end directly from the street. So, that was

[7:09] one of the the kind of items that we looked at. The other thing that this

[7:13] will do is it will allow us to get parking kind of inside what we would

[7:16] consider a a secure kind of ticketed zone for larger events, but also give

[7:21] the ability to to park food trucks and those sorts of things

[7:25] off of the street so they have less impact from a pedestrian standpoint for

[7:31] for other events. As part of this, we would then

[7:34] reestablish kind of the the brick kind of pilaster system that is

[7:39] currently around the park. And the current concept essentially

[7:42] reuses about 75% of the existing pilasters that are there in their exact

[7:48] locations. And then where we have to make adjustments from a sidewalk

[7:51] standpoint or a parking standpoint, we would essentially rebuild and kind of

[7:55] duplicate those to kind of fill that in to connect it all the way around the

[7:59] entirety of the park. Um

[8:02] as we work our way down from north to south, you'll you'll see some kind of

[8:07] open lawn areas. The main accessory building here on the

[8:11] side. This has a couple of things. It has area

[8:15] for concessions, an area for storage and janitorial,

[8:19] a much larger restroom block. There's right now eight fixtures per side in the

[8:23] main block and that is before you count in a family restroom and then two

[8:28] additional handicap accessible restrooms. As well

[8:32] as storage space for

[8:35] things that the city might own. Um

[8:39] And then also a large electrical and AV room component to kind of support

[8:44] everything that's that's happening on there.

[8:47] And then as you work your way toward the south, then you have the actual stage

[8:50] itself. Actually has a similar from a concrete

[8:53] pad standpoint a similar footprint to what's actually down there now.

[8:57] Just reorientated. Um to kind of be on this central axis.

[9:04] So as I go to the stage frame, so this would be the the front or the north

[9:08] elevation. One of the things that we kept hearing

[9:12] when we were looking at all the comments kind of discussing with all the groups

[9:15] is how do we provide something down here that meets and checks these boxes from a

[9:20] performance standpoint, but also doesn't block the view of the river, right?

[9:23] Because as Tony mentioned and is what has been on

[9:26] the forefront of our thought the entire time is

[9:29] you know, what is this going to be the other 340 days of the year that it's not

[9:33] a performance event, right? So what this does is accomplish a

[9:37] few things. So, we've raised the actual stage elevation itself is at 5 ft

[9:43] to get that up so that groups don't have to bring in a separate stage.

[9:46] It provides easy load-in and load-out from an access standpoint. And then

[9:50] we've paired that with what we're kind of calling a stage frame or a proscenium

[9:55] that allows groups to hang speakers. There'll be

[9:59] permanent speakers and lighting that the city can use.

[10:03] Or that other smaller events, whether it's a

[10:07] a church or a graduation or movie night in the park,

[10:11] everything will be there to for them to just come in and use those those those

[10:15] those items. From a material standpoint, we've really

[10:19] tried to keep it simple and try to kind of mimic and respect

[10:24] what's around there. So, really there's three main materials on here. It's

[10:28] brick, some limestone accents, and then steel.

[10:32] I did bring material samples for for what we're currently thinking.

[10:37] So, essentially two different types of brick. There's both a kind of red, kind

[10:42] of very very

[10:46] standard kind of terracotta color, as well as more of an almond, which is

[10:51] what we're using as kind of the what you would consider the water table or the

[10:55] lower section. You'll see in the renderings there's

[10:59] kind of a two-tone look. And one of the things that we're considering right now

[11:04] is that instead of doing an alternate color of brick is using a secondary

[11:08] texture as the as the kind of accent piece for

[11:12] some of those areas. You'll also see that the specific size.

[11:16] So, from a constructability standpoint, one of the things that we are trying to

[11:20] really think about is cost. And what this is is a full

[11:25] it's a clay product, so an actual brick product, but it's a structural brick Um,

[11:30] that we don't have to do a CMU wall with a brick veneer.

[11:36] Um, so it it eliminates the need to have to do a cavity wall system, which saves

[11:41] cost. So, essentially all of these walls around the exterior would be the

[11:44] structural walls for that. Um, and then we would have a a a steel kind of gable

[11:49] frame at the top. This one is a little bit elongated, so it feels more like

[11:54] from a distance, it feels more like a Norman from a uh from a length

[11:57] standpoint. So, it's 4 by either, you know, 6, 8, 10, 12 deep depending on the

[12:02] structural needs, and then 16 in long. Um, so along this kind of north stage

[12:09] view, you'll see that we have brick. Um, there are some some some accents here,

[12:13] as well as kind of a a limestone colored uh

[12:17] what I like to call like a a a tiered step seating.

[12:21] Um, and then the steel stage frame that

[12:25] comes up and around the um top. The detailing for the stage frame,

[12:30] um and the detailing for the steel that's on the building, um is really the

[12:34] the effort will be there to really try to use to make it look more like, you

[12:37] know, actual like rivets, gusset plates, those type of things, not just simple

[12:41] welds, um

[12:43] to really kind of tie into some of the more uh kind of older and historic steel

[12:47] kind of uh frame structures and crane structures and

[12:50] uh bridges that are in Madison.

[12:56] This is a view from the from the side, so you'll see here um as well as the

[13:01] main stage frame, there's a secondary piece here

[13:04] um that kind of protrudes from the from the back from a structural standpoint.

[13:08] Um, it provides some additional anchor points.

[13:11] And then also, there is a canopy out of the front.

[13:14] Um, obviously a canopy of this height is not necessarily intended to provide

[13:18] rain, you know, cover, but what this does is it gets additional rigging

[13:21] points for the um the uh performers um and the and those acts, as

[13:27] well as permanent lighting and speaker hang locations

[13:31] that are that will be out there 365 days a year for the city's use.

[13:39] Next, I'll go to the building. So, we have both a north and the east

[13:44] view here. So, this would be looking from the north um

[13:49] main things that you'll see here again, there's a the terracotta one here is the

[13:54] one that you see in the center. And that that alternate kind of striped

[13:58] or raked texture, as well as the lighter color, which is really more

[14:03] focused as kind of at that traditional limestone or cobblestone base.

[14:07] Um And then limestone accents for the

[14:11] window sills, as well as aluminum storefront and then

[14:14] a standing seam metal roof. You'll see that the the site does step

[14:19] quite a bit. One of the interesting things here is we essentially have three

[14:21] different grade levels. So, as the building

[14:25] kind of steps down the the the hill, you'll have storage and concessions up

[14:29] here on the north end. The entrance to the restroom lock is here at the at the

[14:35] middle. And then as you get down to the bottom

[14:37] side, storage and the two additional restrooms down here at the lower plaza

[14:42] level. Um, right now we're again just using

[14:45] brick and then kind of these steel accents that extend out both a kind of

[14:50] 10-ft completely covered canopy and then that

[14:54] steel structure is then extrapolated out to form kind of a shade structure

[14:58] on on both the north and south ends.

[15:04] Obviously, the west view looks very very very similar.

[15:08] You can see against the south view. Essentially, this is just kind of a

[15:12] tucked in vestibule for both storage doors and the two

[15:15] unisex restroom doors. Um, and then providing kind of these kind of stripped

[15:19] more transom windows um both

[15:23] uh along both the long elevation sides to get natural light into

[15:27] uh the restroom blocks.

[15:33] Have a couple views here from uh exterior standpoint. You can see this is

[15:37] that south end as you're kind of coming from the stage walking walking up.

[15:41] Um I again, a lot of the the building

[15:44] placement, the different um levels for the plazas and those sorts of things is

[15:48] really all centered around accessibility, right? How can we make

[15:52] sure that um the entirety of this park is is is accessible,

[15:56] um which it isn't currently today.

[16:03] This is more from the uh kind of top plaza area. You can kind of see the the

[16:07] the length of the building as it goes down the side, and then the actual stage

[16:10] frame here off to the right.

[16:16] And then we have a view of uh you know, a

[16:19] sample view of just a small uh performance event. Um and again, one of

[16:24] them where all of the infrastructure that's that's up here would be owned by

[16:28] the city or a permanent piece, um and it wouldn't have to be brought in as

[16:33] compared to something like a Unbroken Circle or a Rooster Tail where they

[16:37] would have a much uh kind of larger package from a you

[16:41] know, the current things that they rent now. They would bring out and be able to

[16:44] place on that stage and have that that stage platform ready for them.

[16:50] So, I'm more than happy to take any questions that you have.

[16:56] » Thank you. Are there any questions for the applicant from the board?

[17:02] » Out of your curiosity here, when you on the stage with the the

[17:08] uh structure for lighting,

[17:10] » Yes. >> you know, in you got your cursor right

[17:14] up at I'm talking about. From front to back of that structure, how how wide is

[17:19] that? >> The actual footprint of the physical

[17:22] stage itself? >> No, the the the lighting grid.

[17:26] » Oh, here at the top. Yeah, so from the actual stage frame piece itself, it

[17:30] extends out about 15 ft. If you were looking at it from kind of this side,

[17:35] from the edge here out to this kind of outer lip is about 15 ft.

[17:38] » So, it's 15 ft from the front of the the awning that hangs out.

[17:42] What about to the back of that uh to right there. What is that?

[17:48] » roughly the same. So, that that kind of total depth from here to here is roughly

[17:51] 30 30 30 ft. >> Okay.

[17:57] And then the the height is 50 ft to the top.

[18:01] » Yeah, so 50 ft to the top. So, if we were looking at it, obviously the zero

[18:05] elevation right at the actual lower plaza, 5 ft to the top of the stage. The

[18:10] rigging height or kind of the the lowest portion of this proscenium arch would be

[18:15] 40 ft from grade or 35 ft from the actual stage proper. And then the the

[18:19] top of the structure is roughly 50 ft. >> Okay.

[18:23] Uh did you consult with any stage lighting people when you were

[18:27] » yes, so we have um Theater Projects, which is a um

[18:31] a a stage >> Okay.

[18:33] » consultant. And we're working with with them on all of the details for stage

[18:38] lighting, sound, all the electrical and AV requirements, all of that.

[18:43] » Did anybody mention that you may want light out in front of the stage? I mean,

[18:48] off to the side, but >> Yeah, so there there are a couple of

[18:50] different ways that that those things are being considered, whether it's um

[18:54] having, you know, lighting very far out of the very edge of that canopy itself.

[18:59] Um >> No, I'm talking about like

[19:02] from the front of the stage 50 ft out, 60 ft out.

[19:07] » Or or the op- the opportunity for them to either bring in either you know,

[19:10] temporary or you know, like uh pole mounted additional lighting from a front

[19:16] artist standpoint. >> Right.

[19:17] So, that's that's all been planned for. >> Correct. Yeah, that's Yeah, we're we're

[19:20] currently within the

[19:23] design stages to work through all of those details.

[19:25] » Got you.

[19:29] Thank you, Jed. Are there any other questions from the board?

[19:32] » Uh the >> Go ahead.

[19:34] » The um the current bathroom building is going to go away and this new bathroom

[19:38] building is coming in in its place. >> That's correct. Yes.

[19:40] » And uh what How do they compare in size, the old bathroom building versus the new

[19:44] bathroom building? >> Yeah, so I believe, correct if I'm

[19:47] wrong, the existing restroom building has four restrooms per side.

[19:51] Yeah, so we're essentially more than doubling the existing capacity. This has

[19:55] eight per side for the main blocks and then there's a family restroom and then

[19:59] two additional um two additional unisex restrooms that

[20:02] are on the uh south plaza. >> So, at least twice the size of the old

[20:06] building, maybe more? >> I would say from a footprint standpoint,

[20:10] yes. Um one of the key considerations in

[20:13] working through all of this is providing the permanent audio visual and

[20:17] electrical components that are out of the floodway. So, the current building,

[20:22] where it sits, it sits about halfway within the floodway and the other half

[20:26] is is within the flood plain. Um and so, one of the main considerations

[20:30] here is that we have to get the building far enough to the north that we can

[20:33] provide all of this permanent electrical and audio visual equipment um without

[20:39] the risk of it being flooded.

[20:45] Yeah, and I I think, you know, same thing for the stage, right? So, you

[20:48] know, all of the We've received all the kind of the the

[20:51] artist riders, which are the the the technical requirements that all they

[20:55] have from both Unbroken Circle and from Rooster Tail, and then also our um

[21:00] our theater consultant has been has you know, has hundreds of of of riders that

[21:05] they can go back and and kind of view and reference on um to really make sure

[21:09] that the electrical requirements, the audio-visual requirements,

[21:13] all of that stuff is is taken care of so that there's there's not anything

[21:16] missing when kind of the the first act shows up.

[21:24] » Thank you. Are there any additional questions from the board?

[21:28] Uh thank you very much. Yeah, you may be seated. Do we have any

[21:32] comments from the public?

[21:36] » You want me to unplug and take this off or you want me to leave it

[21:38] » let's see. It sounds like we don't have any comments from the public, so

[21:42] uh you can have a seat or stand there if

[21:44] you'd like. It's now time for the board to deliberate.

[21:48] Um I for one

[21:51] am incredibly grateful to the city for pursuing this project and for bringing

[21:56] this um excellent upgrade to us. It is not an

[22:01] easy thing to develop projects of this scale and given our city's status as

[22:07] Indiana's music city, I think that um upgrades to this park and the building

[22:12] of this amphitheater are very welcome and appropriate. Um

[22:17] I don't want to monopolize the conversation. Do any other board members

[22:20] want to chime in? Um you know, I for one think that this is a very

[22:24] well-thought-out, extensively studied proposal.

[22:29] » I really like how it's see-through. We can see the river through this stage and

[22:35] I think that's a real important thing. That river is a big thing to our

[22:38] community and to block it off, I think would be a a mistake. I think you did a

[22:43] great job on design.

[22:50] » Any other comments from the board? Does anyone have any concerns about it? I

[22:53] mean, the only concern that I have right now is that we have non-ADA accessible

[22:58] facilities and uh things are getting flooded, so I think this is actually

[23:02] fixing concerns that I have about what's going on down there.

[23:10] Well, if there's no further discussion to be had, let's uh let's have a roll

[23:13] call vote for this one, Brenna. I Well, first I need a motion.

[23:19] » I move that we grant a COA to the city of Madison based

[23:25] on the preceding uh discussions.

[23:29] » Do we have a second? >> I'll second it.

[23:33] » Okay, Chris Cody. >> Approve.

[23:35] » Abby Smith. >> Approve.

[23:36] » Phil Jewel. >> Approve.

[23:38] » Jared Anderson. >> Approve.

[23:40] » Jed Skillman. >> Approve.

[23:43] » Thank you very much. >> While I've got you real quick, um we

[23:47] need to approve the minutes from the last meeting.

[23:50] » Oh. We should have handled that up front. Okay.

[23:54] » So >> So, do I have a motion to Has everyone

[23:57] reviewed the minutes from the last meeting and Does anyone have a motion

[24:01] that they can put on the table to approve them?

[24:03] » I have a motion to approve the minutes of last month's meeting.

[24:05] » I second that. >> All right, all those in favor? I.

[24:08] » I. >> Any opposed? None.

[24:12] Okay, what's the next application, Brenna?

[24:14] » Next up is 820 Walnut Street. Um the main structure here is a

[24:19] contributing structure, a federal style built in 1840, and this request is to

[24:25] place a 10 by 20 utility shed at the rear of the property.

[24:31] » Thank you very much.

[25:27] » Okay. Um Brenda, was a site plan submitted with the application to show

[25:30] where the shed will go on the property? >> This is all that we have. Um

[25:35] we do not have one that has changed with the

[25:39] the not 14 ft.

[25:50] So, that has been extended down. >> So, we don't have a drawing that

[25:54] reflects an accurate location of this. >> We do not.

[26:01] » That's going to be That's a That's challenging. Um

[26:06] So, can you indicate on this image where, roughly in relation to the front

[26:10] building, 14 ft off, as you're describing it, is, and where the shed

[26:15] will be placed?

[26:21] Mhm.

[26:29] So, can you I just want to have something indicated on the record that

[26:32] we saw where on this image the building's going to be placed?

[26:42] Okay, right where that black blob is.

[26:47] » And that's what you said, 14 ft back from the alley?

[26:50] » 14 ft off the sidewalk.

[26:53] » Okay. >> And then

[27:08] So, you're centering it on your property in the back. Yeah.

[27:14] All right. >> Thank you for that description. That

[27:17] that helps given that we we don't have a site plan. On the sheet of shed options

[27:22] that you showed, is there one in particular that you picked out from a a

[27:25] design standpoint? Are there just three different ones?

[27:29] That one? Okay. >> On the left.

[27:31] » Okay. I just

[27:32] » What siding and uh roofing are you going to put on have them put on this?

[28:18] » Thank you. Are there any more questions for the applicant from the board?

[28:24] Thank you. Is there any public comment?

[28:29] All right. Hearing none, let's begin board deliberation.

[28:32] Um the application's obviously deficient in

[28:35] terms of what was submitted. It would be really helpful to have a site plan so we

[28:38] don't have to go through the exercise that we just did, but I do feel as

[28:42] though the applicant has now accurately described on the record where the

[28:45] building will be located um and identified exactly which one he wants to

[28:50] build, and I don't have a problem either with the siding or the design.

[28:56] » I like that the applicant talked to the neighbor and has taken the traffic

[28:59] pattern and the truck drivers into consideration.

[29:03] » I agree with both of you. >> We're usually very

[29:09] concerned about having site plans, but we all looked at the property, and this

[29:13] being a prefabricated shed, if there's a problem, you can pick it up

[29:19] and move it a couple feet, right? There's no reason you can't do that. So,

[29:24] I'm okay with it. >> Does anyone have any concerns about this

[29:27] application? >> I do.

[29:30] Um I'm concerned about your roofing and

[29:32] about the siding that's on it. Um the roofing looks like it is uh probably

[29:37] drawn as barn siding, basically, and you'd have T1-11 siding on the building,

[29:42] at least that's how it's drawn. Um is there any chance that you could convince

[29:46] these folks to put a standing seam roof on like we we do on other uh properties,

[29:51] and possibly a lap siding? Any chance of that?

[29:57] Yeah, if you'd like to come up, please. >> I can check that.

[30:06] » Right, but it's a barn siding roof, and

[30:11] you don't see a barn siding necessarily as being all that appropriate.

[30:19] » Okay, so uh what are you suggesting?

[30:23] » Um a standing seam roof, and they're they're readily available. A lot of them

[30:27] are going into town now, and uh say

[30:32] HP or LP uh smart siding, something like that, a lap siding that would have more

[30:37] of the feel of the historic area. >> I I can look into it.

[30:44] » Mhm. >> Yeah, Bill, that's a really good catch

[30:47] on the roof materials. I think that that would be an an easy change

[30:51] that would make a big difference. >> Should

[30:54] this be conditional on that? >> Well, that's that's for the board to

[30:58] discuss.

[31:03] Yeah, I I that I think the question is whether they're those are both excellent

[31:07] suggestions, Bill, and and very correct points.

[31:12] Um I guess the question is whether this could be a conditional approval or

[31:16] an approval with them as mere suggestions.

[31:19] How does the rest of the board feel?

[31:23] » I I would be concerned solely because these are

[31:28] pre-constructed buildings, so I'm not sure

[31:32] I'm not sure these people are going to go out of their way to put a standing

[31:35] seam Um

[31:39] I Yeah.

[31:41] » I don't know why they would have a problem with the roof. You know, they're

[31:44] going to put metal on one way or another, standing seam, barn roof, all

[31:47] goes on the same way. I could uh deal with it if we did have a standing seam

[31:52] roof, and I could probably live with a T1-11 pattern siding because it is a a

[31:58] shed and then in the back. Um

[32:01] » That seems like a good compromise, and I do think that the roof is going to be

[32:05] more significant in terms of the material affecting the overall

[32:08] appearance.

[32:12] Would anyone be willing to make a motion to that effect?

[32:19] » I didn't bring my cheat sheet. >> So, based on the the the preceding

[32:23] discussion, we issue a COA for the property

[32:30] at What is it? >> 820 Walnut.

[32:35] » 820 Walnut, uh

[32:38] conditional on a standing seam roof.

[32:41] And what kind of siding did you say? >> Uh stock T1-11.

[32:45] » Stock T1-11 siding. Do I hear a second?

[32:50] » I second.

[32:54] » Let's do a roll call vote for this one since it's a conditional approval.

[32:58] » Sorry, who seconded? >> I did.

[33:00] » Okay. Okay. Uh Chris Cody.

[33:03] » Approved. >> Kathy Smith.

[33:05] » Approved. >> Bill Jewel.

[33:07] » Approved. >> Jared Anderson.

[33:10] » Approved. >> Jed Skogen.

[33:12] » Approved. >> Thank you very much.

[33:17] All right. Rana.

[33:20] » Next up is 526 Jefferson Street. This is a contributing structure built in 1835.

[33:26] It is part of a series of five uh row houses.

[33:31] Um this is zone historic district residential and this request is to build

[33:34] a 21 and 1/2 foot by 36 and 1/2 foot garage.

[33:41] » Thank you. >> Good afternoon.

[33:44] » Oh, wait. Where are we?

[33:48] » I thought I believe the measurements you've been recently submitted a

[33:51] different measurement of 20 and 1/2 feet by 32 feet.

[33:56] » Uh possibly Was that submitted today? >> Uh not if it was submitted today.

[34:01] I'm sorry. I don't know exactly what day it was submitted.

[34:06] Yes, I'm sorry. It wasn't submitted today.

[34:10] I do have the the plans here, updated plans if that helps.

[34:14] I thought you already submitted the updated plans, too. I'm sorry.

[34:18] » It Yeah, we need to see what's being proposed for approval. But if you're

[34:23] saying 32 by 20 and 1/2, that's the dimensions of what's on the screen right

[34:28] now. So maybe

[34:37] » All right. >> Sorry, that's correct.

[34:39] » Okay. Well,

[34:42] please tell us about your proposal. >> Uh we'd like to build a new garage in

[34:47] the back of 526. Leaving there's a some room between

[34:53] the building, I'm sorry. And we'll leave between the existing

[34:55] structure with the back porch, it'll leave 20 ft 9 in.

[35:00] And then from the property line, which is the alley behind, it will leave 25

[35:03] ft. Off the back of the alley.

[35:07] We're proposing to do a Sorry, the

[35:12] the windows, there's one window beside the man door that would be a aluminum

[35:16] clad wood window. Um there also the entry door would be

[35:20] fiberglass. The siding would be LP SmartSide.

[35:24] Um and

[35:31] the roof would be a hidden seam within our standing seam with hidden fasteners.

[35:37] Um and then the garage door would be a

[35:39] carriage style garage door. When I say style, it'll be a carriage

[35:43] look. It'll be an actual roll-up door, but

[35:45] it'll have the hinges on it and handles on it to make it look like it's a

[35:47] carriage style door.

[35:54] » Are there any questions from the board for the applicant?

[35:58] Bennet, can you pull back the the drawing back up? I just want I was

[36:00] wondering about the the total height. I can't read that number there.

[36:04] » That's 16 ft. >> 16 ft?

[36:07] » And that's a shed style roof. So, there's an existing garage on the next

[36:10] side of the side of that that will start with a shed style off of that garage and

[36:14] come down. Um which will match what's on the actual

[36:17] house itself. >> That's very helpful context, especially

[36:21] given the zero-foot setback. >> Okay.

[36:24] Um the actual roof on the house has uh where you can exposed fasteners. Um,

[36:29] when we do this it will be hidden fasteners.

[36:31] So, not so much a barn look to it. >> Thank you for that clarification.

[36:36] » Thank you. >> Any other questions from the board for

[36:39] the applicant?

[36:42] Um, thank you very much. Is there any public comment?

[36:47] And hearing none, let's move on to board deliberation.

[36:51] » Actually, Chris, if you don't mind, I'm not sure the the correct place to put

[36:54] this. I like your garage very much and I will vote in support of it. I just

[36:59] wanted to talk to you just for a minute about your amazing house.

[37:03] Uh, there are not any other five house blocks in Madison. There's four

[37:08] house blocks, three house blocks, but no other five house blocks. This is built

[37:12] in 1835 and it's known as the McLean block. So,

[37:16] here's your whole block of houses here. And you know, we can look at some of the

[37:20] other structures and guess um about, you know, how this building how these five

[37:26] buildings looked together back in 1835. So, here is a completely fantasized

[37:32] picture of the buildings with the six over six windows, with the transoms over

[37:37] all the doors, and it is just a unique block. You know, we don't have anything

[37:41] else like it in town. And Madison, you know, was unlike other historic

[37:45] districts in the country. We have preserved our smaller and medium-sized

[37:48] buildings. You know, other towns, they save all the big ones. Everybody wants

[37:52] to save the big ones, but everybody doesn't always save the little ones. And

[37:56] so, we have such a complete intact uh situation here. I think you can think of

[38:00] your house, you know, your own building. Each house here is its own distinct

[38:05] unit, but this also is a whole streetscape, all of these five buildings

[38:09] together. And so, I just want to thank you so much for putting investment and

[38:14] attention into this magnificent building. There's so many signs here of

[38:17] high-quality construction. The entire five-unit block is Flemish brick bond,

[38:23] which is high quality brick construction. It's not common bond.

[38:26] There's neat um arched not arched but um

[38:30] brick um things over the windows. Uh sort of flat

[38:34] arches if you will over every single window in the whole structure. I mean

[38:38] it's just it's a magnificent set of buildings. I you know, I just want to

[38:41] congratulate you on your amazing building in this whole amazing block and

[38:45] just thank you for putting the attention that it needs because it's been a sorely

[38:50] neglected block. So, that was a little bit of a transgression but thank you.

[38:53] » one that the owner Mark Puckett has done. We did one on Walnut Street. I'm

[38:56] sure you guys are familiar with the one we did on Walnut Street and this one.

[38:59] So, I believe with this block here, the one on the very end has already been

[39:01] redone also and then we're doing the other end. Hopefully somebody will do

[39:04] something with the ones there through the middle too.

[39:06] » Right. No, over time, you know, they've been changed and some of them have these

[39:10] entrance entrance ways, you know, that was a new thing. So, I I must say that,

[39:15] you know, Link LeDington who's I think here tonight, he was the one who helped

[39:18] me understand all of these neat uh historical uh features of this very cool

[39:23] block. So, anyway, thank you very much. >> Well, happy it is never a procedural

[39:29] transgression to point out very good news. So, thank you so much for sharing

[39:33] and thank you again.

[39:38] So, uh board deliberation Does anyone have any

[39:42] concerns about the proposed project?

[39:47] If not, does anyone have a motion?

[39:52] » I do. >> Oh, you do have some concerns, Bill?

[39:55] » Uh I don't have a concern. I have >> Oh, you have a motion. Oh, even better.

[39:59] » I move that we accept the application that's been presented for 526 Jefferson

[40:05] uh to build a new garage with standing seam roof and LP SmartSide.

[40:11] Do I hear a second? >> Uh Bill, I think that was the the last

[40:16] one that we were talking about the standing seam roof and the the LP Smart

[40:19] Siding. I think that's inherent in the application. So, we just need a motion

[40:22] to approve the application as proposed. >> I move to accept the application as it's

[40:27] proposed. >> I second.

[40:30] » Thank you. All those in favor?

[40:33] » I. >> I.

[40:34] » Any opposed? Hearing none. Thank you.

[40:40] Okay, Brenna, on with the next one. >> Okay.

[40:43] Next up is 205 Saint Michaels Avenue. This um structure was built this year,

[40:49] 2026. Um it is zoned residential medium

[40:52] density, and this request is to build a 12-ft by 16-ft deck off of the back of

[40:57] the house, and to place a 10 by 12 garden shed in the backyard.

[41:02] » Hello, Mr. Taylor. Welcome back. >> Well, thank you for having me back.

[41:07] So, this is the request. Um the house is almost done, and I have got

[41:13] approval for the fence for the back by the alley. And but before I do the

[41:18] fence, I like to get that uh garden shed in there first.

[41:22] And uh it's LP siding. Uh

[41:25] the picture has uh metal, but I'm going to put shingles on it.

[41:30] And um it's a 10 by 12 just to store a bunch of garden stuff, and um

[41:36] Um and then the deck, um just a regular 10 by 12 deck

[41:42] in the back. This is just uh an example, and it might change a little, but not

[41:47] too much on that. But the it's just going to be coming out of the sliding of

[41:51] the back door, and uh just

[41:55] enjoy some cookout. So,

[42:00] if there's anything else I need to bring up, or if you all have any questions,

[42:04] just feel free to ask me. >> Well, I think that you benefit from us

[42:07] having reviewed the plan for your house and understanding the property and its

[42:10] context. So, I don't Does anyone else on Does anyone on the board have questions?

[42:18] Thank you. >> Um so out of curiosity, so the the shed

[42:21] itself is 12-ft tall, correct? >> Tall?

[42:25] » Yeah. >> Uh you know, I didn't get that

[42:27] measurement. I don't believe uh >> That's not the end of the world. I was

[42:31] just curious. Um and then how tall will your fence be?

[42:37] » Well, I'd like it to have a little taller, but I think uh per

[42:40] it can't be taller than 6 ft. >> 6 ft is the limit.

[42:43] » Okay. Um

[42:45] » Cuz the the side of the fence between my neighbors, we put that up. Uh

[42:50] so it it would it's not It's going to be about almost the same height.

[42:53] » Okay. >> So.

[42:56] But the fence is already approved. >> Sure.

[42:59] » Yeah.

[43:03] » Are there any other questions for the applicant from the board?

[43:08] Is there any public comment?

[43:12] Thank you. Hearing none, let's move on to board deliberation.

[43:16] Um I agree with the staff recommendation here.

[43:23] » Yeah, I I agree as well.

[43:26] » Does anyone have any concerns they'd like to to bring to our attention?

[43:32] Hearing none, would anyone like to make a motion?

[43:37] » I move the Madison Historic Board of Review approve the uh the deck and the

[43:42] um the shed being proposed for um sorry, I forgot the address.

[43:48] 205 St. Michael's um as presented.

[43:51] » I second that.

[43:54] » All those in favor? >> I.

[43:56] » I. >> Any opposed?

[43:58] Hearing none. Thank you.

[44:04] » Okay. Next up, we have 317 West 3rd Street. This is a contributing

[44:10] structure. It is a federal and Italianate style duplex double

[44:16] house um built in 1845 zoned historic district residential. And this is a

[44:20] request to place a black vinyl privacy screen along the property line.

[44:26] » Thank you, Breanna. >> Hi. My name is Sandy Deardorff. This is

[44:29] my husband, Jim, and we own the property here at 317. I prepared a statement

[44:34] which I'm going to give you He's going to give each of you a copy and I'm going

[44:37] to read it because I want to address the issues that were uh presented to all of

[44:41] you.

[44:46] » Thank you, Breanna.

[44:55] I'm over here, I think. >> So, we are requesting approval of the

[45:00] privacy screen that we have attached to the existing wrought iron

[45:05] fence that was already in place. The existing fence remains in good condition

[45:10] as we did not remove or alter this hot historic fence. Rather, we attached a

[45:16] black privacy screen panels um to the fence using removable fasteners. To

[45:22] provide additional support for the panels, black painted 2x2 in boards were

[45:27] attached horizontally to the existing fence and the panels were secured with

[45:33] black zip ties. The privacy screen panels are

[45:36] approximately 48 in by 72 by 72 in high. The installation is

[45:41] reversible and could be removed without damage to the wrought iron fence. The

[45:46] purpose of the installation was to provide privacy, not to replace the

[45:51] existing fence. We understand that concerns have been

[45:54] raised regarding sections 20.8 and 20.9 of the historic district design

[46:00] guidelines regarding contemporary materials and alterations

[46:05] to existing fences. However, we respectfully request that the board

[46:09] consider the following. The historic wrought iron fence remains

[46:14] intact and visible. The privacy screen is an attachment to the existing fence

[46:19] rather than replacement of the historic feature.

[46:23] Similar contemporary fencing materials including vinyl fencing already exist

[46:29] throughout the historic district. Several white vinyl fences are visible

[46:33] in public view within the district. In addition, there are examples of other

[46:37] non-historic screening materials being used on residential properties. We have

[46:42] provided photographs of some examples. The privacy screen is black in color and

[46:48] visually unobtrusive. It was selected to blend with the existing black wrought

[46:52] iron fence rather than draw attention to itself.

[46:56] The screen addresses a legitimate privacy concern. Without the screen,

[47:01] there's a direct line of sight from neighboring properties, the public

[47:05] sidewalk, and passing traffic into our porch area and into portions of our

[47:09] kitchen and dining room. The privacy screen allows us reasonable

[47:13] enjoyment of our home while maintaining the existing historic fence.

[47:19] In addition, we ask the board to consider the

[47:23] personal circumstances that make the privacy

[47:26] especially important at this time.

[47:31] Approximately 5 months ago, I was diagnosed with lymphoma and currently

[47:35] facing treatment decisions that may include chemotherapy. As my

[47:40] family and I navigate this difficult period, maintaining a greater degree of

[47:43] privacy at our home has become particularly important to our comfort

[47:48] and to our well-being. The screens help provide that privacy

[47:52] while allowing the historic wrought iron fence to remain in place.

[47:57] We respectfully request that the board approve the installation as a reasonable

[48:02] accommodation that balances the goals of historic preservation with the practical

[48:07] privacy needs of Jim and Lisa as homeowners in the Madison Historic

[48:11] District. We thank each of you for your

[48:14] consideration.

[48:17] » Thank you very much. Do any members of the board have questions for the

[48:20] applicant? Well,

[48:25] » the fence is already up. Does that mean

[48:29] » The fence has already been

[48:32] erected? >> The screens are already The screens are

[48:35] already installed. >> Okay, so you did that without approval.

[48:39] You just went and did it, right? >> We did not know that we needed approval

[48:42] because we were just putting it along the fence line. A complaint was filed,

[48:47] so we were advised that we need to get a certificate of appropriateness. So,

[48:53] that's why we're doing this backwards. >> Uh-huh.

[48:58] Um

[49:01] Hm. >> Is uh the privacy screen um does it have

[49:06] fence posts going down into the ground or is it sort of a more temporary kind

[49:10] of thing? >> It is It does not have anything The

[49:13] screens are sitting um level on the ground.

[49:16] » And they're just attached to the metal historic fence behind it.

[49:20] » Yes, and that is with a black zip tie. So, unless you get very close to it,

[49:25] you're you don't see the zip ties at all. So, it's temporary. It was just to

[49:29] provide It also is slotted so that there's still air flow through it.

[49:34] There's still is some view through the fence, but it provides a

[49:40] a level of privacy. >> Is it known on which property the the

[49:45] historic fence lies? Like whose property the historic

[49:49] fence is? >> From our records and from everything

[49:54] that we have seen, this fence line has been there since 1990. I have photos,

[50:00] not with this particular wrought iron, but photos when back when Evan

[50:04] Summerfeld owned the building owned the whole He actually owned both of the

[50:08] houses at that time. Um so there is a fence row. So the metal fence along the

[50:13] line there butts up to a cedar fence that goes um just past There's a shed

[50:20] there. Goes just past the shed all the way to the alley. So we have a complete

[50:26] fence line all the way along there. So all we have done instead of changing or

[50:30] moving anything or even extending the cedar fence, we've added a privacy

[50:35] screen to give us some a little bit more privacy.

[50:38] » Okay. Thank you.

[50:44] » Are there any additional questions from the board?

[50:45] » Yeah, I just

[50:48] Looking at it from from your your side,

[50:51] it's a nice background to your plants. >> It really is.

[50:55] » It makes a nice clean background. Um I don't know that you it should stick

[51:00] out beyond the There's a building over there.

[51:04] Um if you look at the picture on the left,

[51:08] you see on the right side there is a all the way to the border, there's a

[51:12] building there. So it looks like about two of the panels

[51:16] stick out beyond that. Um

[51:22] » That is um a shed that belongs to the neighbor property.

[51:27] So if we And so that shed doesn't really block the two windows and the door that

[51:32] go into our kitchen and our dining room and it doesn't block This This view here

[51:38] is from the sidewalk walking towards our home.

[51:43] So And And that another thing that we did

[51:47] was we stopped the the uh screen right at the edge of our porch because we

[51:52] weren't trying to block the whole view of the house or be

[51:57] obtrusive in any way. We wanted to just give a little bit of privacy to that

[52:02] lower porch because we are out there a lot and because you can see from this

[52:06] view directly into that first window there is my dining

[52:10] room, the door and then there's a long kitchen window that goes from ceiling to

[52:14] floor. So, that's why we extended to where it is.

[52:19] » All right. How long have you lived in this house?

[52:23] » We purchased the house in 2016, July of 2016.

[52:28] So, right at 10 years. When we bought the

[52:31] home, it's completely overgrown. We have three gas light fixtures, couldn't even

[52:37] see those. Everything There were vines growing into the windows.

[52:41] We've had to replace several in the back with wood-clad aluminum windows or

[52:45] aluminum-clad windows. Um but we've been working on the house

[52:49] for 10 years and the reason we decided to add the screens

[52:53] this year is only before some health reasons and just wanting a little bit

[52:56] more privacy at this time.

[53:01] » Um I'm not

[53:03] being argumentative here. We have a similar situation at our house

[53:07] and we we use curtains, you know, cuz our dining room

[53:12] looks across an alley into a

[53:15] and not really well-fixed up house next door.

[53:19] And uh we just pull the curtains closed when

[53:23] we're sitting there. That's all. That's all I have to say.

[53:27] » We do have window shades on all of our windows and we do close them typically

[53:31] at night, but if we do have company or family over for dinner or something, I

[53:36] don't normally close everything up while we're there. And then sitting on the

[53:40] porch outside, we have a beautiful side porch and love spending time out there

[53:45] and it just affords us a little bit more privacy.

[53:52] » I have no more comments right at the moment.

[53:54] » Are there any further questions from the board?

[53:58] Thank you. Is there any public comment?

[54:02] » I would like to I just like to point out in favor of the

[54:07] couple here that in our UDO there is nothing specifically pertaining to

[54:11] privacy fences or screens, rather. Uh only fencing, which this is not a

[54:17] permanent structure. Um so, I believe they have that going

[54:21] for it and I hope you guys approve it for them.

[54:27] Thank you.

[54:30] » Mike Pittman, 420 Elm Street. It's different. I'm usually on S uh days.

[54:39] Uh I'd like to tell you about that fence

[54:42] that's covered up. That fence was covered up uh uh it was

[54:47] Linda and I bought our my house back in the last century. Hard to believe it's

[54:51] the last century. In late 1990s, mid-1990s.

[54:55] There were two gentlemen on our street. Some of you may have heard of them. Evan

[54:58] Summerfield and uh

[55:04] Evan Summerfield and uh he'll come to me.

[55:11] » Happens to me, too. >> No, Arliss Helton.

[55:15] Arliss Helton worked for for Duke. And and of course Evan Summerfield, if you

[55:19] knew him, he did had a wonderful uh historic uh

[55:24] store downtown and and he searched the world for different different antiques

[55:30] and things and we have several in our house.

[55:32] But from the standpoint of Arliss Helton, Arliss came to us as we were

[55:36] rehabbing our house at 420 Elm Street and he basically said, "Hey Mike,

[55:42] all this all the houses on

[55:46] Third Street on the south side between here and the fountain have beautiful

[55:52] historic iron fences. He said, "I got one for you, but you got

[55:56] to buy it, but Evan's trying to buy it, too."

[56:00] So, and Evan's our neighbor, too. So, I mean it was kind of a a race here,

[56:05] so Lynn and I were going to Louisville to get the wrought iron fence

[56:10] and lo and behold we're able to purchase it.

[56:13] But, we didn't have enough fence. So, Evan, being the gentleman he was, said,

[56:17] "Well, I can get you some other type fences along the sides and back and

[56:21] forth." So, I'm pretty emotional about that and I feel very bad for Sandy's

[56:25] situation. I think there's another way to accommodate what she needs with

[56:30] another addition to her home that wouldn't cover

[56:34] up that wonderful fencing we have and everyone can see. Believe it or not,

[56:39] right now those of you went by the house probably couldn't see

[56:42] back between the houses because my wife's a prolific gardener

[56:47] and Sandy's got some beautiful stuff and everything is is grown up, so it's very

[56:50] difficult to see. But, in the summertime

[56:54] when the leaves come off the trees in the winter

[56:57] it's nice to be able to see that iron fence and see that the beauty of it as

[57:00] well as the iron fence we have around the front. I have some pictures.

[57:05] The Deer Dors have been very active in Excuse me.

[57:09] » modifying fences wrought iron.

[57:16] » That is the wood fence that Sandy talked about

[57:19] that you can see that the fencing has been wood fencing has been moved and

[57:23] changed. This is the way the the

[57:27] plastic fence is attached to the iron fence.

[57:39] » Tho- Those of you that know wood

[57:43] and if you know if it's not painted and treated, it's going to rot. I I expect

[57:47] that will not last.

[57:51] These are the installations of the fence as you walk back into the

[57:55] through the area of Sandy's house.

[58:00] You can notice that they're not aligned and there's missing screws.

[58:15] This is a picture of what you could see without the

[58:18] leaves on the trees.

[58:28] Well, I understand Sandy's need for privacy. I had a very ill wife for a

[58:32] number of years. Of course, she's pro- hopefully looking

[58:35] down on me right now and saying, "What are you doing up there, dummy?"

[58:38] But, uh she she uh she had a rough go of it, too, and I understand the need for

[58:43] privacy. But, I also understand the need for us

[58:46] maintaining the block we have

[58:49] right there on on Elm Street and and also uh

[58:53] West 3rd Street. Uh

[58:55] there's not a day goes by that we don't get somebody stopping. In fact, we had

[58:59] some people from St. Joseph, Michigan. We had some gentleman from Champaign,

[59:02] Illinois. They stopped me, talked to us for 20 25 minutes. Linda's a great

[59:07] ambassador for this town. She she does a lot of good things.

[59:11] My fear is that this fence won't be

[59:14] temporary. I think it it uh should not be approved,

[59:18] and I think there are other alternatives for for covering that up. Uh this fence

[59:22] was installed, I think, in about 3 days. So, those of you who know fencing, you

[59:26] don't install a fence in 3 days if it's going to last. So, gentlemen, I urge you

[59:30] not to approve this application. Thank you.

[59:34] » Thank you very much, Mr. Pittman. Is there any additional public comment?

[59:40] » I have a question about one of your pictures here.

[59:43] » Yeah. >> So, this one here, is this the wood

[59:45] section of fencing that it's attached to the iron fence?

[59:51] It's not the privacy screen. It's not the middle black fence.

[59:55] » No, that fence is not Excuse me, that fence is not attached.

[1:00:00] That is the wooden fence. It is not attached to the wrought iron fence. We

[1:00:05] added that because that was a direct view right into my kitchen. So, all we

[1:00:11] did was extend the wooden fence because the

[1:00:15] the iron fence butts up to the front of the

[1:00:20] the front of the fence butts up to the back of our

[1:00:25] of the wooden fence. So, we extended that since we

[1:00:29] took over. There was a gap between where the shed

[1:00:33] on their property and the garage where our fence starts. So, there was a big

[1:00:39] 6-ft gap that was directly into our porch. So, and we did that several years

[1:00:45] ago. I would say 2020 2021, something like that.

[1:00:50] We've never heard a word about it. We've never heard any complaints or any issues

[1:00:53] at all about that particular

[1:00:56] piece. And that was completely out of the

[1:00:59] question. >> Okay. Th- Thank you for that

[1:01:01] clarification. Um

[1:01:04] so, no further public comment uh leaves us with board deliberation and

[1:01:08] discussion. >> I could see

[1:01:12] uh the petitioner's point of view from the point of

[1:01:17] uh cancer treatment. Um and I can

[1:01:21] understand the need for privacy. Um,

[1:01:28] but I also see the next door neighbor's point of view.

[1:01:33] Um,

[1:01:36] would we be able to do this if we say you can leave the fence there for 18

[1:01:42] months or something, you know, a definite period to get her through the

[1:01:47] treatment and then the fence comes down. Does that make sense?

[1:01:54] » Yeah, I I understand. I don't think that we can put conditional time limits on

[1:01:59] certificates of appropriateness. We either grant them or we don't. Um, I

[1:02:03] don't think that we can have them expire. I do agree though that this is

[1:02:07] an extremely um, difficult

[1:02:11] decision. It's It's It's funny how some of the hardest things we have to think

[1:02:14] of are totally reversible and permanent privacy screens. You know, these things

[1:02:18] that don't seem like they would arouse the

[1:02:21] complex decision-making required that that this does. Um, cuz I certainly

[1:02:27] understand uh, Mr. Pittman's perspective, but uh, my heart absolutely

[1:02:31] goes out to the applicant and the need here is clear and

[1:02:34] reversibility is such a key um, aspect of historic preservation and the fact

[1:02:40] that this is entirely reversible and I think

[1:02:42] to Mr. Pittman's point inherently non-permanent just because of the um,

[1:02:48] nature of the materials construction methods used. I mean, zip ties don't

[1:02:51] tend to last decades. Um,

[1:02:54] uh, it's it's it's tough. I do have a a question for city staff. I appreciated

[1:03:00] the comment about

[1:03:03] the guidelines and our zoning ordinance not

[1:03:07] speaking to truly impermanent changes. So, you know, this isn't a

[1:03:12] fence. This is a screen that's been applied to a

[1:03:17] uh, zip ties, you know, are they permanent

[1:03:21] fasteners that imbue this fence with some sort of level

[1:03:25] of permanency that puts us in our within our purview, or is this something that

[1:03:30] the board might not even have purview to review as an impermanent alteration?

[1:03:39] » So, typically this would be something that is considered staff, but given the

[1:03:43] complaint, um it was brought to to the board for that

[1:03:48] reason. Um, because of the impermanence of it,

[1:03:54] that is why it would typically stay as staff, but because of the complaint,

[1:03:58] that is why we have it here. So, does that answer?

[1:04:01] » It it does. My understanding is is that we only review permanent alterations. If

[1:04:07] someone did an art exhibit in their front yard or something that was, you

[1:04:11] know, impermanent, that's not typically within our purview.

[1:04:15] Um, so I think that

[1:04:19] even if as a if we were to consider it permanent, then we would have the

[1:04:24] question of does it comply with the guidelines, but if the decision is and

[1:04:30] the opinion is that it's impermanent, then it's, you know, again, not not up

[1:04:34] to us.

[1:04:38] I I I I sure wish the city attorney was

[1:04:42] here right now to give us a very formal opinion on whether or not this is

[1:04:45] appropriate for us to even take action on.

[1:04:49] » Does the guidelines I I couldn't find it in here, but do do the guidelines

[1:04:54] specify what temporary means

[1:04:58] in this case? >> I don't believe so.

[1:05:00] » Okay. >> This is kind of a an unusual case.

[1:05:03] » Yeah. >> Yeah.

[1:05:05] » I'm looking here on 28 uh, 20.8 and 20.9 and this is in the the on fences and

[1:05:11] walls. And I think, you know, we have

[1:05:13] guidelines about fences, but we really don't have guidelines about something

[1:05:17] like this that is temporary. I walked past both these properties. These are

[1:05:20] absolutely stunningly beautiful properties, both of them. Both a credit

[1:05:23] to the neighborhood and to the historic district. Both these owners are doing

[1:05:27] wonderful jobs with their properties. From the street,

[1:05:30] it seems an unobtrusive um kind of fitting in uh privacy screen.

[1:05:37] Um and it would seem that though being temporary, it might not fall under our

[1:05:43] perview. >> Yeah, I I think that the safest course

[1:05:47] of action for us here um

[1:05:50] is probably to table the application and I can get a reading from or an opinion

[1:05:57] from the city attorney as to whether or not this is in fact temporary. If we

[1:06:01] were to table the application, the privacy screen would remain as it

[1:06:05] currently is um while we figure that out. And if the

[1:06:10] ultimate opinion of the city attorney is that it is temporary and not in our

[1:06:14] perview, then no further action would be needed by this board. It would only be

[1:06:18] if the city attorney decided that this is in fact a permanent installation that

[1:06:22] requires our approval that it would come back to us.

[1:06:26] Um without having clarity on that issue, I

[1:06:29] don't feel comfortable saying yay or nay at this juncture personally.

[1:06:34] » Well, if we agree it's it's uh a temporary structure, and then you got to

[1:06:39] say how temporary. I mean, 10 years? >> Well, and that's So, the issue there is

[1:06:45] that this board is not empowered to make a decision about what the definition of

[1:06:49] the word temporary is. We're only empowered to

[1:06:52] uh evaluate applications for their conformance with the guidelines. And so,

[1:06:57] I think that that's where we need the city attorney to tell us whether or not

[1:07:00] this is in fact within our perview. And you know, if it's impermanent, it's not.

[1:07:05] If it's permanent, it is, and we'll hear it again.

[1:07:09] » I'd also like to say on on their defense that they are keeping the existing

[1:07:16] wrought iron fence. So, even if it was a permanent structure,

[1:07:20] the next person who bought the property or later down the line, that wrought

[1:07:24] iron fence is still there and can always be re-exposed.

[1:07:28] » Yeah, the reversibility is, you know, a key consideration here, and the fact

[1:07:32] that no historic materials are being harmed today by us not resolving this

[1:07:37] question right now and getting this extra clarity. I think if there was

[1:07:41] substantial harm to materials or, you know, building occurring here, we might

[1:07:47] feel more pressure to make a decision, but I think getting this one exactly

[1:07:51] right, especially um given how well-founded Mr. Pittman's concerns

[1:07:56] were, and then giving the heartbreaking extenuating circumstances

[1:07:59] for the applicant, I think that, you know, taking some time to do this

[1:08:03] correctly is warranted. Um would anyone be willing to to help me

[1:08:08] out with a a motion to table this application

[1:08:11] pending uh review of its uh whether or not it falls within the

[1:08:15] purview of our board by the city attorney?

[1:08:20] » I move that we table the application um

[1:08:24] um being proposed by the uh by the uh the owners at uh 317 West 3rd

[1:08:31] Street uh pending deliberation by the Madison uh city attorney.

[1:08:38] » Do we have a second? >> I second.

[1:08:42] » All those in favor? >> I.

[1:08:44] » I. >> Any opposed?

[1:08:47] None heard. >> Opposed.

[1:08:49] » Oh, one We do have one opposed. >> I don't think we're talking about this

[1:08:53] enough, but you guys carried the You have the

[1:08:56] majority here. >> Well, while we made a motion to table,

[1:08:59] if If have anything else you'd like to add, I we be to hear it.

[1:09:03] » you know, the I hate to say we're spending all this

[1:09:07] time on a plastic fence, you know, cuz we got a lot of stuff to go through

[1:09:11] here. And it how I never would have thought we'd get stopped on something

[1:09:14] like this, but you deal with something uh

[1:09:18] it's a personal opinion of mine that in a historic district when you fix your

[1:09:24] house up uh it's not just not what you see what

[1:09:31] somebody driving by in a car sees your house and say, "Oh, that's swell."

[1:09:35] The guy the the neighbors see what your house is. So, we're and I've dealt with

[1:09:41] this we've had this several times before where somebody put they already put the

[1:09:46] windows in. Remember that just happened up on on a couple blocks from here. They

[1:09:51] already took the good windows out and put plastic windows in. Um and uh it's

[1:09:57] but right next door was a house that somebody had actually done it right. So,

[1:10:02] when he looks out his window, he sees plastic fencing or he sees plastic

[1:10:07] windows. When they look out their window, they see a restored house. So,

[1:10:13] and there's there is uh I'm not a lawyer, so I don't know what

[1:10:16] kind of language to use on saying something like that. What you uh

[1:10:21] diminish someone else's effort by not doing the effort yourself. You follow

[1:10:26] what I'm saying? They get a free nice view out their front window of a

[1:10:29] beautiful house. And whereas in this system uh this situation of of a couple

[1:10:36] months ago the

[1:10:38] man that put the plastic windows looks out the windows and he sees a really

[1:10:42] nice house across the street. So, um we're we're kind of into that territory

[1:10:48] for me. And and I would say if we would say

[1:10:51] it's temporary because I don't think vinyl fencing is even permitted. We make

[1:10:56] allowances for it. And And we could make an allowance here,

[1:11:01] but I would say also make an allowance that it can be there

[1:11:05] 1 year, 2 years, 3 years, but there's a end point to it where it's got to come

[1:11:10] out. You can't sell the house with a plastic like, you know, 5 years down the

[1:11:14] road, it's too big a house for you guys and you want to downsize.

[1:11:19] That fence has to go. Do you follow me?

[1:11:22] » Yeah, I think I I agree with your concerns and I think that there perhaps

[1:11:27] are more architecturally sensitive ways to

[1:11:31] achieve privacy in some of these settings.

[1:11:35] You know, and again though, I think what we're

[1:11:37] suffering from is a lack of a definition of what is temporary versus permanent

[1:11:43] and >> Probably there is no definition of

[1:11:45] temporary. >> which is which is why the city attorney

[1:11:47] needs to look to probably Indiana case law

[1:11:50] » Okay. >> to determine what that word means.

[1:11:53] If 5 years down the road this vinyl fence

[1:11:57] is still up, then I really pushes the envelope of being

[1:12:00] temporary. So to me, um you know, this is a question that that

[1:12:05] is bigger than this application and it is indeed always interesting at these

[1:12:10] meetings as to what these small >> You never know what these things are

[1:12:12] going to turn into big things. >> to turn into big conversations. So, um

[1:12:17] thank you very much to the the applicant and and to Mr. Pittman for your patience

[1:12:21] as we try and and figure this out. We understand both your situation and why

[1:12:26] you want the fence and your concerns and we're going to, you know, try and handle

[1:12:30] this by the book and we appreciate your patience in what we do.

[1:12:35] So, um with that, I think we've officially

[1:12:38] tabled the application. Um thank you very much.

[1:12:45] » Okay. Next up, we have 1017 West First Street.

[1:12:50] This is a contributing structure built in the Italianate style in 1876. Zone

[1:12:55] historic district residential and this is a request to build a 24 by 26 two-bay

[1:13:00] garage in line with the house with a second floor deck to attach to

[1:13:05] the house. >> Good evening. My name is Lisa York and I

[1:13:08] live at 1017 West 1st Street. And

[1:13:13] I'm at the next phase and I'm approaching you all to see if you can

[1:13:18] agree with me that I can have a garage.

[1:13:27] » Okay. Are there any questions from the board

[1:13:31] for the applicant?

[1:13:36] » Well, I don't want to start off again with the

[1:13:41] same thing of same tone that I had with the

[1:13:44] uh privacy fence. Um

[1:13:48] go back Can you go back to the pre- No. There you go.

[1:13:53] You got a neat house there. And it's a gem. Um and I was actually

[1:13:59] I've been surprised. We've talked. We know her personally. That wow, you're

[1:14:03] really tackling this thing and you're doing a great job.

[1:14:07] This changes the feel of the house. Um although I can understand you need a

[1:14:12] garage. I totally agree with that. Um

[1:14:19] when I was looking through the uh the the paperwork that we get on

[1:14:24] this, I never really figured out how you Is there going to be step You want to

[1:14:30] put a a deck on top, right? >> Yes, that's correct. I My master bedroom

[1:14:35] is the of those three windows there and the purpose was to have a deck that

[1:14:41] connected the house to the the garage and not only is that going to give me

[1:14:47] living space outside to enjoy the river, but it will also give me a fire egress,

[1:14:52] which I think is critical.

[1:14:58] » Are there any other questions for the applicant?

[1:15:00] » Well, well, okay, so we're looking at a little mini wall here. That's where

[1:15:05] the peak comes together like that, right?

[1:15:08] » The the parapet wall was designed for privacy for my for my deck, but it also

[1:15:16] Ryan brought it to my attention that the

[1:15:20] height of the garage is minuscule compared to the height of the

[1:15:24] house. So the the parapet basically kind of brings everything kind of to

[1:15:30] scale, so to speak, proportional. So that's the purpose of the parapet

[1:15:35] wall.

[1:15:37] Now, I have

[1:15:41] I originally had envisioned a a crown mold there

[1:15:47] rather than the X's. I think that

[1:15:51] Ryan was just thinking outside the box as far as decor,

[1:15:55] but a crown molding would be very appealing to me as well if it would be

[1:15:58] for you all.

[1:16:01] » Brenna, can you switch to the drawing that shows the pitch of the garage roof?

[1:16:09] Yeah, I'm this one or the last one. At any point did

[1:16:13] any point did you ever consider going with just a flat roof to the garage to

[1:16:17] really capture a larger second floor deck or is the pitch absolutely

[1:16:21] necessary for some reason? >> I originally had planned a a flat deck

[1:16:26] all the way across and there would not have been a breezeway,

[1:16:31] but from a cost standpoint the the membrane that you put on top that you

[1:16:36] can use the upper level was just crazy expensive.

[1:16:41] And so that is why I I did the second version and used the breezeway instead

[1:16:47] to make, you know, a nice area up upstairs, but uh it's not huge.

[1:16:55] Brian and I calculated the three the pitch there is 3 12 pitch.

[1:17:00] » That's that's helpful. Brenna, can you show the other

[1:17:03] There we go. >> And he is telling me that uh there's

[1:17:07] about 6 in that are s- going to allow for flashing.

[1:17:12] » Okay.

[1:17:15] Thank thank you for that clarification and discussion.

[1:17:20] » Well, the para- parapet parapet wall that we're seeing in the other picture

[1:17:24] is hiding, yeah, that that stretch in the whole length of your structure here

[1:17:29] and it's sort of hiding or giving you privacy for both your deck and then the

[1:17:34] part of the garage roof that slopes down that we saw in that other picture.

[1:17:37] » That's correct.

[1:17:40] » Um and um why do you want that parapet wall to

[1:17:45] go s- back so far? You could just have had it giving you the privacy from the

[1:17:49] deck, right? >> Yes, that that would be an option.

[1:17:53] » I guess I'm having a little trouble with the permanent alteration of the back of

[1:17:57] your historic building. There are words in the guidelines, you know, about

[1:18:01] a permanent alteration. I mean, there are a lot of

[1:18:04] buildings in town that had a almost like a shed or a back portion uh attaching.

[1:18:10] I'm not sure that we've seen anything that looks like this yet in the historic

[1:18:14] district. Somebody can correct me, but this is kind of a new new one

[1:18:18] a little bit for me. >> I got the idea while I was jogging

[1:18:22] downtown. Um there's a home that and I don't I'm forgive me, I I can't remember

[1:18:27] the name of the street, but it it's on the west side of the Lanier home.

[1:18:31] There is a a two-car garage that has um is basically crown molding.

[1:18:38] uh that goes along the top, but it basically kind of mimics what Ryan has

[1:18:44] here as far as the two car the the garage door and then the roof slant

[1:18:49] slants down going west. I'm

[1:18:53] at a loss at the name of the street. I showed you the picture. Mhm. Um

[1:18:57] it wasn't uh I think their front actually went all the way up. It wasn't

[1:19:02] a parapet wall, but it would it gives you a very similar look than what I'm

[1:19:06] getting or what I'm asking for. But that's where I really got the idea.

[1:19:14] » Are there any other questions from the board for the applicant?

[1:19:19] » Um well

[1:19:25] the whole parapet the wall that goes all the way out

[1:19:30] that could be removed, right? >> Mhm.

[1:19:33] » And then you just have maybe a rail fence

[1:19:38] on this side. >> Mhm.

[1:19:40] » Maybe put slats in there. But they're they could be at an angle to give you a

[1:19:45] little more privacy. Possibly. >> Okay.

[1:19:48] » And we shouldn't be I don't mean to be redesigning her project. Uh

[1:19:53] but this changes the whole appearance of the

[1:19:57] house. >> I would not be opposed to um removing

[1:20:03] the parapet um and and using a form of a handrail.

[1:20:08] Um

[1:20:11] » And then you got there's three windows as I remember at the top. So you're

[1:20:15] going to take the windows out and put it >> all three. Just just the center one. And

[1:20:21] my plan was to and that's not in this drawing, but my plan is to use that

[1:20:26] window that I'm taking out and putting it on that south wall.

[1:20:29] I uh I plan to put a a door

[1:20:34] a 3-ft by 6-ft door >> Like French doors type of thing?

[1:20:37] » It would just be a single door. From a cost standpoint

[1:20:41] and it would be symmetrical when you have two windows on each side of a a

[1:20:46] door that's all glass. >> So it'll be two windows and one door.

[1:20:51] » One door. >> Okay.

[1:20:52] » And then I would use reuse that window that I'm taking out of the house and

[1:20:56] putting it on that wall. >> What wall? On the on the garage wall?

[1:21:07] Okay. Are there any more questions from the board for the applicant?

[1:21:11] » Uh Prana has um got here on the staff recommendation raised the roof pitch

[1:21:16] along the south wall. Can you kind of um just kind of comment

[1:21:20] on that what your thinking is there? >> That had been a discussion that Lisa and

[1:21:24] I had had about um how steep the pitch was.

[1:21:28] Um and just raising it just so it wasn't quite so severe.

[1:21:33] Um given the

[1:21:37] » You want this to be steeper? >> No.

[1:21:40] » Less steep? >> Less steep.

[1:21:41] » And how how come? >> Can't go less than 312.

[1:21:45] I I wouldn't with shingles anyway.

[1:21:48] » water um

[1:21:50] » Okay. >> purposes.

[1:21:51] » So this is the plan. What what we have here.

[1:21:55] Okay. >> Yeah. Ryan is telling me that that's a

[1:21:57] 312 pitch.

[1:22:01] » And you you wouldn't recommend less than 312?

[1:22:06] » Not with a shingle roof, no. >> Oh.

[1:22:08] » You can't. >> Okay.

[1:22:09] » by code. Um may I make a suggestion to you, Lisa? So when I looked at it, I

[1:22:14] think uh kind of same concerns popped up with

[1:22:17] that parapet wall just not matching. Um my idea was and I like your crown

[1:22:24] molding idea as well because that does tie into historical.

[1:22:28] What about raising the parapet wall even higher to match the roof line

[1:22:34] and then do your crown molding like it's a gutter

[1:22:38] and match the a brick facade on that parapet wall. So, it almost looks like

[1:22:42] the whole building goes all the way across.

[1:22:46] » I I mean so you're talking about the >> Go to the last picture, please.

[1:22:50] » west exposure of the house or of the building

[1:22:54] » the parapet wall >> wherever it is That side would be would

[1:22:58] be brick here? >> Taking the parapet wall, raising it up

[1:23:02] to where the gutters essentially are and then our crown molding would would

[1:23:06] basically match the gutter profile all the way across to the end of the parapet

[1:23:12] wall and matching a brick facade on that parapet wall. Essentially making it look

[1:23:17] like it's all part of that same building.

[1:23:21] Just my idea. Not >> Well, before we we start redesigning the

[1:23:25] applicant's project for which I think a lot of us want to

[1:23:30] you know discuss. Um I think we need to just clarify are

[1:23:33] there any further questions from the board for the applicant and then we need

[1:23:36] to hear if there's any public comment. >> No more.

[1:23:40] » that you have on there, are they actually three-dimensional? You have

[1:23:43] them drawn in the black. >> Uh well, again Ryan um

[1:23:48] threw that in as a kind of a design concept. Um

[1:23:53] I'm uh It would be 3D if if the dentals

[1:23:57] remain, but again I'm not opposed to a crown molding, too.

[1:24:05] » I look at the dentals as being out of size for the building and for other you

[1:24:09] know other buildings that we see they're generally pretty small.

[1:24:14] Um >> I'm actually not opposed to um Jed's

[1:24:18] idea about a a handrail and that we would um just top the garage

[1:24:26] off appropriately, you know, aesthetically

[1:24:30] and just have a handrail. I would be opposed to I would not be

[1:24:33] opposed to that if you guys do not like the parapet

[1:24:38] wall.

[1:24:41] » Any further questions from the board for the applicant?

[1:24:46] Thank you very much. Is there any public comment?

[1:24:50] Okay, hearing none, let's move on now to board deliberation. Bill, I agree with

[1:24:56] the last point that you just made that this dental is a bit out of scale.

[1:24:59] This is a very different design, different from anything that we've seen

[1:25:02] before, but that doesn't make it bad. Differentiation

[1:25:08] from the historic is one of the important tenants for the treatment of

[1:25:11] historic properties and within our guidelines.

[1:25:14] That being said, I think that there are some design challenges here as as were

[1:25:19] brought up during the questions to the applicant that perhaps

[1:25:22] we should talk through in order to

[1:25:25] fully evaluate whether this complies with the guidelines.

[1:25:37] » I'm really struggling with this one. I would be more comfortable with the

[1:25:40] free-standing garage and maybe just a deck coming out from the master bedroom,

[1:25:46] not connecting the buildings. You know, with the historic district,

[1:25:50] you know, we're we're trying to preserve what's historic here in the historic

[1:25:54] look so we can continue to maintain our national historic landmark district

[1:25:58] status, which was very hard to get. So, we're trying not to change the historic

[1:26:03] structures too much. I understand people really want to do what they want to do

[1:26:06] with their houses, but it's just really a struggle. So, I'm having trouble

[1:26:12] trouble with the connectedness of your design to the historic building.

[1:26:17] » I would like to see uh

[1:26:20] another continuation here where we cable it for now.

[1:26:25] She gets together with Ryan and they work

[1:26:30] on another way of approaching this to get rid of the parapet.

[1:26:35] Um give her a deck and that uh the you know

[1:26:40] I hate the idea of taking historic windows out, but she's going to reuse

[1:26:44] them. But it's on and it's also on the back of

[1:26:46] the house. So, it's not like it'll be seen.

[1:26:51] Um >> Yeah, they're not historic. They were

[1:26:54] actually They were replaced 30 years ago by a plastic

[1:26:59] » Ah. Okay.

[1:27:02] Um

[1:27:05] The uh but I

[1:27:09] I'd like to see this she let her and Ryan work on this for

[1:27:13] another month and see what they could come up with.

[1:27:18] » Well, let's let's talk through the specific things that are we believe are

[1:27:22] not in compliance with the guidelines and that

[1:27:25] would be the focus of any re-study if that is indeed the motion that we make.

[1:27:30] And I think the one thing that everyone has identified as being

[1:27:33] uh different from other buildings in our district and maybe not

[1:27:37] compatible with the context of the combination of the scale of the parapet

[1:27:41] with the uh pitched roof in the rear. You know, I

[1:27:45] I wish that you I I I completely understand why you uh the applicant

[1:27:48] wants to have a deck and have a a great view. I think it's a fantastic

[1:27:52] improvement to this property and I wish it was the entire, you know, a giant

[1:27:57] deck that went all the way to the back of the the garage. Um but I understand

[1:28:02] why they haven't gone that direction. That being said, I don't know if the

[1:28:05] parapet needs to extend the entire length of the garage. I think the

[1:28:09] condition of the parapet extending past the pitch.

[1:28:14] You know, it it it is a little challenging.

[1:28:19] The detailing of the parapet is also the dentals in particular out of scale, but

[1:28:23] I think the detail could use further study, but you know, I I for one am fine

[1:28:28] with a parapet on the Craigmont side that is facing the street and a handrail

[1:28:34] on the interior. The parapet could be detailed and have some of the accent and

[1:28:40] flare that I think the design is going for if if at scale.

[1:28:45] I just don't know if it needs to run the whole length all the way down to the the

[1:28:49] end of the garage or if it could stop where the porch stops.

[1:28:52] » Mhm. >> That might make it a bit of a lighter

[1:28:56] addition to the historic building. To Happy's point, I think if you know, if

[1:29:01] the parapet was was shorter, but those are are again, my particular

[1:29:07] design concerns or or suggestions. Um

[1:29:14] How does How does the rest of the the board feel?

[1:29:19] » I kind of feel like that if we took the whole parapet off, get rid of it. Um

[1:29:24] there I don't think there is a privacy kind of an issue from the west side.

[1:29:28] There's you know, there's nobody over there to be able to see what's going on.

[1:29:32] Um I just think if we got rid of that parapet wall, we'd be pretty much in

[1:29:36] compliance, but uh that's just me. >> Yeah, no, I agree with you, Bill. I I

[1:29:41] would I would be willing to vote in favor

[1:29:46] of what we have here if we can just take off the parapet and go to the railing.

[1:29:53] » I do like the design flare of the parapet though. It made this cool and

[1:29:57] different. So, I mean if there's a little bit of parapet instead of a

[1:30:00] handrail that has you know, some of the the design elements. Uh albeit the

[1:30:05] dentals restudied for scale. um I I think that would be fine.

[1:30:16] » When you say uh smaller, are you thinking maybe a shorter parapet wall?

[1:30:20] » No, I'm I'm I'm I'm looking to the length of it. Um

[1:30:24] so, yeah, that Brenna, if you want to go back

[1:30:28] um for There you go. So, the portion of the parapet wall that

[1:30:33] extends above the pitch of the garage roof is what I propose eliminating and

[1:30:38] to just have the parapet actually where there is a deck. That is sort of a false

[1:30:44] building element that's being tossed up there that almost reads like a

[1:30:48] commercial uh marquee or parapet >> Yes, it does.

[1:30:52] » more so than something that we would find in the context of Madison's

[1:30:56] residential historic district. So, that's what's giving me pause is, you

[1:31:01] know, precisely. Precisely.

[1:31:05] Um >> I missed that. What did you say?

[1:31:08] What Brenna, can

[1:31:11] » She's She's >> at the screen, the right here.

[1:31:14] » Yep.

[1:31:17] » And I think that, you know, the applicant still gets their garage,

[1:31:21] they get a deck with privacy if they want a solid parapet to Craigmont and uh

[1:31:26] all those great views and I think, you know, aside from this question that

[1:31:30] we've been noodling over of the parapet, that this is overall an excellent

[1:31:33] project that's going to add value to this historic home.

[1:31:42] » I could go with that.

[1:31:45] » I I could as well. So, given that we've discussed um

[1:31:51] what essentially be a conditional approval uh pending the alteration of

[1:31:55] the uh design to remove the parapet as it uh is attached to the pitched garage

[1:32:01] roof, prior to doing that, I would just ask

[1:32:04] the applicant, is that is that a condition that is okay or would you

[1:32:08] prefer a different sort of re-studying in that opportunity or would you be okay

[1:32:12] with what we've proposed? >> I would be okay with the

[1:32:16] but I would not be happy

[1:32:18] paying much more than the standard garage.

[1:32:21] But, you know, I really I really need

[1:32:24] to enjoy the privacy that we are afforded by that

[1:32:28] wall.

[1:32:32] » Which is completely understandable and thank you for being amenable.

[1:32:37] » Thank you. This board really it exists at the intersection between, you know,

[1:32:42] public myth of the historic district and private ownership and ownership rights.

[1:32:46] So, it's not popular what we do up here sometimes.

[1:32:50] The mayor in his wisdom has appointed a diversity of people up here with a

[1:32:54] diversity of opinions. So, there might be some do not approves. Um, take it as

[1:32:59] a just a vote of confidence in your amazingly wonderful historic house and

[1:33:04] um, just that we're just balancing the needs of the historic district and

[1:33:08] private ownership. So, it's kind of a struggle, but thank you.

[1:33:14] » I think I'd also be remiss if I didn't say something positive about our fellow

[1:33:17] board member and how nice it is to get a decent set of drawings.

[1:33:26] And an original thought, those are contrary to what the public might

[1:33:29] believe, innovative architecture and different ideas are very much welcome

[1:33:35] and had we not had a lot of those throughout our history, we wouldn't have

[1:33:39] such a cool town.

[1:33:46] Well, I might go ahead even though it's somewhat unconventional

[1:33:50] for the chair to make a motion, but since I was sort of the one who was

[1:33:52] articulating it earlier, I'll go ahead and do it this time. Um,

[1:33:57] I make a motion to approve on the condition that the parapet be removed

[1:34:03] from that the parapet be removed from the length of the garage itself,

[1:34:08] which does not include the deck.

[1:34:13] » I'll second.

[1:34:17] » So, we've got a motion and a second. Um

[1:34:20] » Do we want to roll call this one? >> I think we should roll call this one.

[1:34:23] » Okay. Chris Cody? >> Approve.

[1:34:25] » Happy Smith? >> Do not approve.

[1:34:27] » Bill Jewel? >> Approve.

[1:34:30] » Jared Anderson? >> Approve.

[1:34:32] » Jed Skillman? >> Approve.

[1:34:36] » Thank you very much.

[1:34:40] All right. On with the next, Brenda. >> All right. Next up is 745 West 3rd

[1:34:45] Street. This is a contributing structure in the Folk Victorian style built in

[1:34:49] 1890. It is zoned historic district residential, and this is a request to

[1:34:54] open the enclosed windows on the back porch.

[1:34:59] » Thank you. >> Thank you. Yes, we're looking at this

[1:35:04] back porch which is not original to the house. The the foundation is not the

[1:35:07] same. There's actually a window inside uh between the basement and the

[1:35:12] the the the bottom of the porch here. Uh the porch is basically an

[1:35:16] interstitial space to the house itself. Um

[1:35:21] Originally, I not originally, but I guess when they built this porch, I

[1:35:26] believe they had windows there, but you can see that they've covered them up now

[1:35:29] with the vinyl siding.

[1:35:32] Uh we're looking at uh adding four windows there.

[1:35:37] And what we'd like to do is use uh some repurposed materials.

[1:35:42] Uh these are 22-in by I believe 7-ft. Uh and they actually

[1:35:48] have safety glass in them, so there's no issue as far as, you know, being too

[1:35:51] close to the floor. It's probably a lot safer than a lot of the other

[1:35:55] uh windows that we have currently in the uh

[1:35:59] in the town that that that are that long uh

[1:36:02] So I actually have a sample of it there. You can't tell but it has the like the

[1:36:05] chicken wire. It's laminated and has the chicken wire in between it.

[1:36:09] Uh it's not conditioned in any way. It's

[1:36:12] not heated or cooled. It's just uh We want to open that back up so it looks

[1:36:18] better. And we also want to replace the Look at the replacing the the door.

[1:36:22] That's just a metal door from the uh you know the '80s uh

[1:36:25] insulated metal door. And and rebuild the uh steps going up to

[1:36:30] it. Uh in addition to that we are going to

[1:36:34] finish off with a uh cement board either Hardy or

[1:36:38] uh some something uh Menards doesn't carry Hardy. They have

[1:36:42] another brand. But uh we're looking at continuing the

[1:36:46] uh the horizontal siding when we replace

[1:36:49] pull that off and replace it. It's uh currently aluminum siding on it.

[1:36:55] » Do you have four of them that are alike? >> Four Four of them?

[1:36:59] » Yeah. >> Yes. Yeah, they're they're four exactly

[1:37:02] the same size. They actually have five of them but I can only fit four in

[1:37:05] there. >> Are you going to be restoring them?

[1:37:07] » Yes. >> Will the windows be openable?

[1:37:12] » No. >> So they're not going to be like

[1:37:14] casements and swing out. >> No. No, not at all. They're they're just

[1:37:17] a fixed pane uh uh

[1:37:20] uh windows, yeah.

[1:37:22] They're actually metal clad wood.

[1:37:27] » Mhm.

[1:37:29] That's a metal clad? >> Yes.

[1:37:35] It doesn't doesn't look like it from there but

[1:37:38] » It doesn't. Is it metal on the other side?

[1:37:41] » Yes. >> Am I missing Yeah, I'm missing

[1:37:43] something. Okay. >> So you're going to put four of those

[1:37:47] door door window doors in the on the back. Okay.

[1:37:51] » Yes. And that's just old attic cuz it's uh

[1:37:54] you know, it's it's really dark in there now.

[1:37:56] » Uh-huh. >> You know, it's it's a

[1:37:58] the uh porch is also about 5-ft deep. So, we're just looking for a place to

[1:38:03] you know, sit on the back porch and be able to have it opened up to the the

[1:38:06] backyard there. >> Since this is not the original historic

[1:38:09] building itself, you know, we have much more leniency, much more flexibility.

[1:38:13] So, it seems like a nice improvement. >> Yeah, I I don't know when it was added.

[1:38:17] Place definitely was poured concrete on the uh

[1:38:22] on the footers and uh then they built on top of that. Like I said, and the only

[1:38:27] reason I knew that was you know, you have the a window right

[1:38:31] now. There's a window between the porch underneath it and the house itself,

[1:38:35] which obviously would have been discovered up when they put the porch

[1:38:37] on.

[1:38:40] » Mr. Hayne, you must be pretty excited about this. This is kind of nice to to

[1:38:43] use existing material and repurpose. >> Yeah, exa- exactly.

[1:38:48] And uh you know, obviously since it's not

[1:38:53] heated or cooled, you know, the energy factor's not not not an issue

[1:38:57] with it.

[1:39:00] » Are there any other questions for the applicant?

[1:39:05] Thank you. Is there any public comment?

[1:39:08] » Well, that's an old picture you have of our house. So, you don't have a newer

[1:39:11] one? >> Yeah, our survey pictures have not been

[1:39:15] updated yet. >> Well, let's let's move on to board

[1:39:18] deliberation. I agree with what everyone said. I think this is a fantastic

[1:39:21] project. It's wonderful to see and I'd be ready to entertain a motion.

[1:39:31] » I move the Madison Historic District Board of Review

[1:39:34] approve the porch modifications with the repurposed windows at

[1:39:40] 745 West 3rd Street as proposed by the applicant.

[1:39:44] » I will second that motion. >> All in favor?

[1:39:48] » I. >> I.

[1:39:49] » Any opposed? Hearing none. Thank you.

[1:39:53] » Congratulations.

[1:40:00] » I'm sorry. I don't know why that address isn't correct. That isn't correct. Our

[1:40:04] next one is 215 West Main Street. Um

[1:40:10] Let's see. It's still there in the app. Okay.

[1:40:13] Um this is a contributing and individually eligible structure um in

[1:40:17] the Federal and Italianate styles built in 1830 zoned Central Business District

[1:40:23] and this request is to build an addition to accommodate extra kitchen space for a

[1:40:28] bakery.

[1:40:32] » Hello. My name is Gabriella Bogdan and I bought 215 West Main a couple of months

[1:40:37] ago and uh with the intent of using the

[1:40:40] space as a bakery. Um

[1:40:45] I think it's maybe a little bit small to see, but the yellow outline is the

[1:40:49] current footprint and there is um at the front of Main Street, the building uh my

[1:40:57] building touches the next building next to it. They're a lot line. But then for

[1:41:02] the remainder of the lot, it is um a tiny little alleyway that is

[1:41:09] grass and there is a gate or was a gate there.

[1:41:14] So, we are in the process of uncovering um some of the natural uh original

[1:41:20] materials underneath um the exterior and working on uh some interior

[1:41:27] renovations as well. And so, um we do plan to put the gate back, but the

[1:41:34] um red slashes are sort of the extension. So, there is a um

[1:41:41] non-original HVAC building um kind of part of that red

[1:41:47] space right now um that had some the structure of that HVAC building had some

[1:41:53] uh roof and structural damage, so it needs to be replaced anyway.

[1:41:58] The actual HVAC unit itself needs to be replaced as well. So, rather than just

[1:42:04] replacing just the few square feet, um we would like to extend um partway

[1:42:11] through the alley so that I can add a little bit more space to accommodate the

[1:42:15] future use of the building. And then um as I mentioned, we are going

[1:42:20] to rebuild the gate. Um and that addition actually will not

[1:42:25] be visible from any views.

[1:42:34] » Thank you very much. Are there any questions for the applicant from the

[1:42:36] board? >> Glad to hear a bakery's coming in.

[1:42:41] Um so, the building that's yellow, >> Mhm.

[1:42:44] » all the way to the back, is that is that all going to be bakery space?

[1:42:49] » It is not all going to be bakery space. There is going to be a short-term rental

[1:42:53] in the back, which has been approved through zoning already.

[1:42:56] » Okay. I have a question for staff. So, had

[1:43:00] they built the gate first, would this be publicly viewable from the public

[1:43:04] right-of-way? >> No.

[1:43:05] » No. So, it wouldn't even be in our purview had they done the gate first.

[1:43:08] » Yes. >> And when the gate's done, it won't be in

[1:43:11] our purview again. >> Yes.

[1:43:13] » Okay. >> Uh-huh.

[1:43:14] » We're kind of in a an interesting window here.

[1:43:18] » Well, that's that's uh a helpful clarification.

[1:43:22] I'll just say to the applicant, congratulations on buying a wonderful

[1:43:25] historic building. >> Mhm.

[1:43:27] I'm very excited about the project. >> The back of it looks like it's air

[1:43:31] conditioned pretty well. Along that way

[1:43:37] » is completely open to your building, it looks like. So

[1:43:39] » Yes.

[1:43:42] » Are there any other questions from the board for the applicant?

[1:43:46] Thank you. Is there any public comment?

[1:43:49] Let's move on to board deliver- Oh, we do have a public comment.

[1:43:55] » Hi, my name is Jackie Fraser and I work at the Tello's.

[1:43:59] My question is, are you going back to the end of this driveway?

[1:44:03] » No. >> Do you see the Or where's the gate?

[1:44:06] » The gate is going to go exactly where it is now, at the back of the structure.

[1:44:09] Can you see that? She drew it up a little bit.

[1:44:12] So, the old gate that was there, we just removed it because it was falling down.

[1:44:17] So, we're just going to put the new gate back where the old gate was.

[1:44:21] » My only concern is

[1:44:25] are we going to be able to get our trucks out of there?

[1:44:28] » Should be. No change. >> There's no change in that part.

[1:44:31] » Not at all. We're not extending the building out.

[1:44:35] » That's what I wanted to

[1:44:39] » Thank you. Is there any other public comment?

[1:44:43] I'll thank you the applicant for answering that question, resolving that.

[1:44:46] Um moving on to board deliberation. Uh

[1:44:49] this is minimally within our purview for a very

[1:44:53] temporary amount of time and it's going to enable

[1:44:56] uh a business on Main Street. So, I for one am in complete support of

[1:45:00] this. >> I feel the same way.

[1:45:03] 100% >> I agree.

[1:45:05] » I agree. I also just want to say I really appreciate the thoughtfulness in

[1:45:10] your description of what you're doing. We've noticed that you

[1:45:13] exposed the wood on the side that faces Comfort Station and here you say you

[1:45:18] were going to be attempting to restore that and you know, patch where you can.

[1:45:22] Thank you. Thank you so much for doing that. A lot of people in town are

[1:45:25] covering up the old wood siding and it it you know that you're appreciating it

[1:45:30] and keeping it. That's just a wonderful thing. Thank you so much for that and

[1:45:33] the other careful things you're doing with this really old 1830 building. It's

[1:45:37] just a fabulous building. So, congratulations.

[1:45:47] » Well, would someone like to make a motion?

[1:45:50] » I would. I move that the Madison HDR accept the

[1:45:55] application from Gabriella Bogdan at 215 West Main for an addition onto the back

[1:46:01] of the building for a bakery. >> Do you have a second?

[1:46:05] » I second. >> All those in favor?

[1:46:08] » I. >> I.

[1:46:09] » Any opposed? Hearing none.

[1:46:12] Thank you.

[1:46:18] » Okay, next is 117 West Main Street. This is another contributing and individually

[1:46:25] eligible structure in the federal and Italianate style built in 1850. Zone

[1:46:30] central business district and this is a request to add a new door

[1:46:34] on the west facade to provide proper ADA compliant entrance to the office.

[1:46:41] » Good evening. I'm Chad Lewis. I purchased 117 West Main Street about a

[1:46:45] year and a half ago. Um it's at the opposite block here of city hall. It has

[1:46:51] operated an Edward Jones financial services office for over 45 years.

[1:46:57] Um and Edward Jones as a corporation would not

[1:47:02] renew the lease unless we made the building ADA compliant for clients and

[1:47:08] the public. Um so

[1:47:11] we have a 4-in step snap into the building. Um we did not want to put a

[1:47:17] ramp on Main Street as there's no other ramps um

[1:47:22] out on Main Street, so we did not want to do that. So, our alternative was to

[1:47:27] build a, um, a new door

[1:47:29] on the west side of the building and have a small ramp that would make this

[1:47:34] ADA compliant.

[1:47:39] » Thank you. Does the board have any questions for the applicant?

[1:47:42] » Is Edward Jones is out of the building now? They're gone, right?

[1:47:46] » No, it we're currently remodeling to make it ADA compliant so

[1:47:51] we can stay. We service a lot of families that live

[1:47:55] downtown and would like to remain downtown. Edward Jones would not let us

[1:48:00] stay there if we did not make it ADA compliant.

[1:48:04] So, we're in the process of trying to do so.

[1:48:06] » Where would the ramp go? >> Where?

[1:48:09] » Where is it? Interior of the door? Do you open the door and then go up a ramp?

[1:48:13] Is that it or >> No, it would be on the sidewalk.

[1:48:17] » On the sidewalk there? >> west, yeah.

[1:48:19] » So, you come out what, about 3 ft with your ramp? About that kind of width for

[1:48:23] wheelchair access? >> ADA compliant needs to be a 4-ft ramp.

[1:48:27] » Four Has to be 4 ft wide.

[1:48:32] Um

[1:48:34] » How did you say that you looked into putting

[1:48:38] it right on Main Street or you didn't want to put it on Main Street cuz

[1:48:40] there's no other ramps? Did you look into what it would have

[1:48:44] looked like on Main Street? Like how far out it would have had to come?

[1:48:49] Like how far extended onto the Main Street sidewalk?

[1:48:53] » Like how wide or how long? >> How long?

[1:48:56] » Right.

[1:48:59] We we did look at it. >> Yeah, they they actually I I I think

[1:49:02] Edward Jones looked at that prior to me being involved, but basically your

[1:49:06] landing >> say your name for the record just so we

[1:49:08] have >> Brian Martin, 104 Sycamore Street.

[1:49:10] Um It it it has to do with, um,

[1:49:14] you know, with your egress and direction of travel. So, that landing outside of

[1:49:17] the door has to be 5 ft by 5 ft clear. It's a It's a 5 ft diameter circle for a

[1:49:23] wheelchair movement. It's the the landing is

[1:49:26] different than than the actual ramp. The ramp can be smaller. The ramp can be

[1:49:29] down to almost 36 in between handrails. But, it would be it would be a

[1:49:34] substantial impact on that sidewalk. 5 ft landing plus additional handrail

[1:49:38] around because you can't have that obstruction. So, it would be a

[1:49:41] tremendous impact on on Main Street for sure.

[1:49:44] » So, you're saying 5 ft kind of onto the sidewalk of Main Street.

[1:49:48] » 5 ft 5 ft plus >> Plus, and then you have a hand Then you

[1:49:51] have cuz I was looking at the Girls Inc. building

[1:49:54] and that one um is a pretty substantial structure. Uh that is a beautiful brick

[1:49:59] wall you're cutting into. I know you're already aware of this. I'm not telling

[1:50:03] you anything. Um and it's not been altered in any way. A lot of our brick

[1:50:06] walls have had previous doors and windows, but this one's just a pristine

[1:50:11] beautiful brick wall. So, that's a painful thing. So,

[1:50:16] um Edward Jones made this conditional upon their staying. They are going if we

[1:50:19] don't make it ADA compliant. Is that correct?

[1:50:22] » Yeah, I mean I think certainly the compliance and any ADA

[1:50:26] responsibility is important for our city as it as we grow we go we sure as we

[1:50:31] grow regardless. >> Yeah.

[1:50:32] » Um but no, I really think it's it's uh I mean call the lesser of two evils. I

[1:50:37] mean I don't I don't I think we can be accommodating as we can. Um again, you

[1:50:42] know, location location is specific to the floor plan on the inside. You know,

[1:50:47] based on cuz again the the ADA responsibility is not just getting

[1:50:51] someone in the door, but it's also throughout the entire office. So, that

[1:50:54] front say that front reception area needs, you know, seating and needs desk

[1:51:00] space that that can accommodate, you know, all capacities. So,

[1:51:04] again, it's really kind of dictated just based on ADA compliance throughout

[1:51:08] through. >> That's why the door is where it is.

[1:51:10] » Yes. Up towards the front. Okay. Okay. Looks like Sounds like a lot of thought

[1:51:15] has gone into this and you have really thoroughly explored the option that

[1:51:18] wouldn't have cut into the brick wall, so I appreciate that. Thank you.

[1:51:21] » also working with working with Tony Steinhart and Chris

[1:51:25] Hale on modifying

[1:51:28] the sidewalk cuz the

[1:51:30] Edward Jones office had sent a uh

[1:51:34] sent this design but extending the ramp down the

[1:51:38] sidewalk, which would have again been quite a uh

[1:51:42] an obstruction of sorts, you know, visual if nothing else. So, that

[1:51:46] sidewalk is in terrible shape, curb is in terrible shape. So, we've got our

[1:51:50] initial approval to be able to modify that. Technically, what you'd call 5-ft

[1:51:54] landing out that door and then and then still be compliant within the grade on

[1:51:58] the sidewalk, too. Basically, there'll be there'll be

[1:52:02] next to nothing there as far as, you know, the sidewalk grade for the most

[1:52:05] part to be compliant with ADA responsibility, but it won't be an

[1:52:08] extended version of a ramp, which is what was originally

[1:52:11] proposed, anyway. So. >> Could you put a ramp inside? Just go in

[1:52:16] this door and start up >> it's all it it affects the the floor

[1:52:20] space. You know, you I mean, what comes up time and again on the start board is

[1:52:23] limited capacity on any uh you know, these these narrow lots. It's the same

[1:52:26] concept in there as far as his business. It it it affects the use of that space

[1:52:31] so much inside that And again, they looked at that on the

[1:52:34] first entry door. >> We did look at that.

[1:52:37] » How much do you have to rise up from the street?

[1:52:40] » It's from the sidewalk. It's about 4 in. >> 4 in?

[1:52:43] » It has to do with It has to do with so so

[1:52:46] travel is important as far as how you come into it, you know, you go through a

[1:52:50] door, you have to have a landing space on the outside. You know, your your your

[1:52:54] ramp is specific to your slope. You have to have a landing space on the inside.

[1:52:57] So, it really takes up a lot more room than just getting through the door.

[1:53:01] » We had a question here uh before this board

[1:53:05] 4 or 5 months ago, historic building and involved

[1:53:11] significant alteration of a gem of a historic building for ADA

[1:53:18] compliance. And uh

[1:53:22] uh after it passed

[1:53:25] uh I went home

[1:53:28] and did a search on ADA compliance for historic buildings, which this one

[1:53:34] is. There are seven clauses that Now, of course, that's federal. That's

[1:53:40] not Edward Jones. Edward Jones wants us in, you're not doing this because of

[1:53:46] uh a federal

[1:53:49] ADA requirements because there are are several

[1:53:53] classifications of of I think it was seven

[1:53:57] ADA requirements that you wouldn't have to do this.

[1:54:00] So, first off, to be clear, this is strictly for Edward Jones, right?

[1:54:05] Doesn't have anything to do with anybody coming out of Washington, D.C. because

[1:54:09] this building is not ADA requirement now, and the ADA has been around for

[1:54:15] over 30 years. So, uh

[1:54:18] this is this is all

[1:54:22] uh uh

[1:54:24] directed from up the corporate ladder, correct?

[1:54:28] » Chad, would you mind if I rephrase your question cuz I had the same one, but

[1:54:31] wanted to pose it a little bit more directly. Had have there been any

[1:54:34] conversations with Edward Jones about the fact that there are ADA waivers

[1:54:38] available for historic buildings and that you do not need to comply with the

[1:54:42] ADA in a building like this? >> Thank you, Chris.

[1:54:46] » Yes, there have been discussions and they wanted ADA compliance.

[1:54:52] » I understand that sometimes that can be a condition of your insurance policy, so

[1:54:55] there are other legitimate considerations, but I really appreciate

[1:54:59] you bringing that up, Chad, because ADA waivers are such an important tool in

[1:55:03] communities like ours to allow these historic buildings to remain in service

[1:55:07] without having to chop them all up to put ramps and all this other stuff

[1:55:10] everywhere. Sometimes you just can't. You know, you've got a chance here to

[1:55:14] make it work, but sometimes you just can't.

[1:55:16] » Cuz I looked at it and uh it's about a 4-ft

[1:55:21] step up to get in the front door. >> 4 in

[1:55:25] » 4 in I mean, excuse me, 4 in. Um

[1:55:29] that whole front of the building is not original. That was put on sometime in

[1:55:34] the '70s or '80s. So, we got some room to work here.

[1:55:39] Um and you also are redesigning the whole

[1:55:44] inside of the store anyways, right? Yes.

[1:55:48] » complete. It's it's a it's a modification of of hallway

[1:55:52] » Okay. >> for accessibility reasons.

[1:55:53] » Okay. How about removing the stone sill that

[1:55:58] you have to go up and you put the ramp in there and you

[1:56:02] either put a door or recess the door somewhat like they do

[1:56:08] at the um What's the Gallery 21?

[1:56:14] » We can I think we can talk about this during the board deliberation about

[1:56:17] design changes we might be interested in. Um

[1:56:21] You know, I don't I don't want to jump jump the gun on those conversations.

[1:56:24] Does anyone have any questions for the applicant?

[1:56:27] » I have a question for city staff. So, is there

[1:56:35] is the street department going to widen the sidewalk?

[1:56:39] » Um I don't believe they have the full plans for for what they're doing there

[1:56:44] yet. Um that has been a discussion, but I don't know if that has been finalized.

[1:56:49] » So, I guess just to clarify, what is the actual width of the ramp that will be

[1:56:53] placed there? >> So, so technically there's there's

[1:56:56] really no ramp per se. It's the It's the the landing is the the the area of of

[1:57:01] major concern as far as how much space it takes up. So, technically

[1:57:06] a flat ramp out of that lane out of that doorway, centered on the doorway, is the

[1:57:12] first step and then transitioning grade back to proper slope to the sidewalk,

[1:57:16] which we have some modification we can do

[1:57:19] on the brick pavers. But, again, uh Chris and Tony both have been on site

[1:57:23] a couple different times discussing when basically we can kind of lead that

[1:57:27] charge as far as get our our um our landing and our proper slope in and

[1:57:32] then all the sidewalk kind of come comes back to that. Because, again, the the

[1:57:35] sidewalk is in terrible shape to the south, which is really probably the

[1:57:39] the major issue of of transition. Otherwise, we'll be compliant with

[1:57:42] everything else ramped to the west and to the north.

[1:57:45] » Okay. All right. Thank you. Are there any

[1:57:48] other questions from the board? >> I think the one that the comment about

[1:57:53] trying to go in the front, you also have to remember

[1:57:56] the requirement of width of the doorway. Not only has the door, but you also have

[1:57:59] clearance on each side of the door. And even though you say that's not an

[1:58:03] original storefront, which I understand, there's still a steel there's a steel

[1:58:06] and/or cast column just inside to the right of that door

[1:58:09] that's supporting that cast lintel that's still probably a carryover from

[1:58:13] the original. >> Okay.

[1:58:14] » So, that's a tremendous modification of

[1:58:17] making that opening compliant. Cuz you can't If If If If you walk in that door,

[1:58:22] you know, within inches there's a there's a cast column to your right and

[1:58:25] then there's a sidewalk to your left. And you need you need much more

[1:58:28] clearance than that to to make that possible. So,

[1:58:31] » Thank you. >> into that.

[1:58:32] » You can't widen that door because of that cast iron support.

[1:58:36] » One of the reasons, yes. Clearance on the sidewalk coming into the left is

[1:58:39] also another reason. >> Yeah.

[1:58:42] » Multiple reasons. And again, transitioning that ramp inside, it it's

[1:58:46] how it affects it's a small office to be in, so how it affects the floor space in

[1:58:49] there is also just doesn't it's it just doesn't work really well.

[1:58:53] » Mhm. Thank you for those clarifications. Are

[1:58:56] there any additional questions from the board?

[1:59:00] Is there any public comment?

[1:59:04] All right, thank you. We'll move on to board deliberation. Um

[1:59:09] I think it's unfortunate that uh the long-term tenant is unwilling to seek

[1:59:15] just an ADA uh waiver here. But uh they are a very long-term tenant.

[1:59:21] We do want to keep our businesses on Main Street. And I think that this is a

[1:59:25] reasonable accommodation. Um I for one, just to comment on the conversation that

[1:59:31] sort of arose, uh would never support a ramp on Main Street. I see the

[1:59:36] streetscape of Main Street as sacrosanct and one of the most important aspects of

[1:59:41] our historic district. So, you know, if this was a mid-block building, I think

[1:59:45] I'd be telling him to do it in the rear. I think they're fortunate that they

[1:59:48] happen to be at the end and could just do it on the side. Um

[1:59:53] and I you know, I I don't see how they could accomplish the goal that they have

[1:59:58] any other way.

[2:00:01] » I uh I I agree with everything you're saying,

[2:00:05] Chris. I I am I still am just slightly concerned about

[2:00:11] digging into the side of the building solely because

[2:00:14] uh the city did a study in 2022 that specified that this building

[2:00:20] uh is one of only 134 significant structures in the historic district. Um

[2:00:27] and that was approved on by city council and and the mayor's office and whatnot.

[2:00:32] Um it does concern me doing new openings

[2:00:36] just because we typically are not supposed to do that on a building that

[2:00:41] is on the same list at, you believe it or not, as

[2:00:45] the Linier, the Shrewsbury Windle. uh all of these other important properties.

[2:00:50] But, I also understand that

[2:00:56] we're kind of in a tough a tough spot here cuz obviously we don't want Edward

[2:01:00] Jones to leave downtown. Um so,

[2:01:04] that's kind of where I I'm I'm torn.

[2:01:09] » Yeah, I think just to be clear, we're not evaluating this in any way, shape,

[2:01:12] or form based on our desire to not have or to have Edward Jones on our main

[2:01:16] street. This is purely about the building and whether this complies with

[2:01:20] the guidelines. And you are correct that the guidelines

[2:01:23] generally frown upon the creation of new openings, um but they are just

[2:01:27] guidelines.

[2:01:32] » I'm with Jared um on this. Really don't want to

[2:01:37] put a new opening in such a beautiful brick wall. But, um I do like the idea

[2:01:42] that we're going to have almost the best possible scenario for creating an ADA

[2:01:47] compliant entrance. We have one of the most wonderful historically

[2:01:51] um sensitive contractors in town working the project in Brian Martin. You know,

[2:01:57] we have a long-term tenant. You know, I think there's worthy goals here and

[2:02:01] maybe it's a good place for an exception. But, yeah, I really hate

[2:02:05] busting into that brick wall.

[2:02:10] » I can't support this.

[2:02:13] So, um

[2:02:16] I think uh discussion with

[2:02:21] upper management of Edward Jones letting them know it's a historic

[2:02:26] building. What did we say? 135 of these of the top-tier buildings

[2:02:32] of of the couple thousand that we have in downtown Madison.

[2:02:37] Um

[2:02:41] um

[2:02:44] And they have been there so long there had to have been some

[2:02:49] precipitating incident

[2:02:53] somewhere uh for them to come make this decision.

[2:02:57] What's what happened? You know, why did this happen? Unless it's just a

[2:03:01] corporate uh policy in which case they can be flexible, too.

[2:03:10] » Yeah, I uh I we have to rely upon the

[2:03:14] representation of the applicant that they did do

[2:03:18] what they could to try and have Edward Jones make an

[2:03:23] exception from their corporate policy. And I very much appreciated their

[2:03:27] response to to that specific question that we had.

[2:03:31] I don't think it's within our power to compel a applicant to attempt to

[2:03:38] address something that with their tenants with the tenants' needs and the

[2:03:41] tenants' policies. I think all that we're willing we're able to look at are

[2:03:45] the physical alterations which um you have the creation of a new opening

[2:03:51] which is not desirable. You have ADA compliance for this building, which is

[2:03:57] desirable, although perhaps unnecessary. Um

[2:04:02] it's uh it's a it's a tough call, and obviously I think there's going to be a

[2:04:05] split vote here.

[2:04:11] Would anyone like to make a motion one way or the other?

[2:04:18] » I move that the Madison Historic District Board of Review approve the the

[2:04:23] ADA modification at 117 West Main Street.

[2:04:28] Um uh as proposed um

[2:04:33] by the uh by the owner and by the contractor here.

[2:04:38] » We have a motion. We have a second? >> I second the motion.

[2:04:43] » Yeah, let's do a roll call vote. Brenna? >> Chris Cody?

[2:04:46] » Approve. >> Happy Smith?

[2:04:48] » Approve. >> Bill Jewel?

[2:04:49] » Approve. >> Jared Anderson?

[2:04:53] » Approve. >> Jed Skillman?

[2:04:55] » No.

[2:04:58] » Well, thank you very much. And just also want to note to my fellow board members,

[2:05:02] I thought that was a really good conversation about a very difficult

[2:05:05] application for a lot of ways. We've had some tough ones tonight, guys.

[2:05:14] Okay, Brenna. >> Okay.

[2:05:16] Um our last application tonight is 1020 East 1st Street. This is currently an

[2:05:21] empty lot. It is zoned historic district residential.

[2:05:25] And um this request is to build a new residential structure on this vacant

[2:05:29] lot. >> Thank you. Is the applicant here?

[2:05:42] Jerry Bryner? >> My name is Ed Demery.

[2:05:46] » Owner, builder. >> Good evening, gentlemen.

[2:05:53] Um is there anything you'd like to tell us about your project?

[2:05:57] » Yes. Similar to the other homes in the

[2:06:00] location as far as footprint.

[2:06:05] And the basement with stone.

[2:06:09] We can burn the wood siding, which is a

[2:06:12] tongue and groove, and it's manufactured locally

[2:06:16] by this company. He has built somewhere in the

[2:06:19] neighborhood of 200 homes. This is It's sticked up like any other home.

[2:06:24] It's just got this really nice Eastern pine wood

[2:06:27] that is horizontally laid.

[2:06:31] It holds up very well. It's going to be treated.

[2:06:56] » Thank you. Are there any questions from the board?

[2:06:58] » Could you describe the siding a little bit better? I'm still a little little

[2:07:02] fuzzy on that. >> The siding is an eastern white pine and

[2:07:05] it's laid horizontally with a tongue and a male and female tongue and groove

[2:07:09] engagement. >> Mhm.

[2:07:11] » It's a common old world club. >> Okay. The corners, kind of hard to tell

[2:07:17] there, are you log style corners, overlap kind of?

[2:07:20] » That is correct, dovetail style. >> That could be done either way. You know,

[2:07:26] I had two options and I I I thought it was suitable. I mean, it's stained down.

[2:07:35] » So, are the boards uh kind of rounded like a log cabin look?

[2:07:39] » Uh no, ma'am. They are uh horizontal similar to your other architecture like

[2:07:43] the previous picture you showed for the bakery.

[2:07:47] Uh it's a horizontal and it's a flat siding.

[2:07:51] » You don't have a photograph? >> Uh we have a

[2:07:55] We have a full size brand of this. I mean, it's

[2:07:58] out in the car. >> Oh, okay. Well, maybe let's see how it

[2:08:02] goes here. So, yeah. Okay.

[2:08:05] » Are there any other questions from board members for the applicant?

[2:08:10] Thank Thank you. Is there any public comment?

[2:08:14] Hearing none, we'll move on to the board deliberation. Um I had the same

[2:08:18] question. I think one of the sheets actually says log cabin on it. So, I was

[2:08:21] wondering about the profile of that siding.

[2:08:24] Um I'm relieved to hear that it's a flat profile and it sounds like a high

[2:08:27] quality um plan for the siding. >> Yeah, and the inside's

[2:08:33] not going to >> I'm sorry, we're we've got board

[2:08:35] deliberation now, so we got to We might ask you another question, but

[2:08:40] um How does everyone else feel?

[2:08:45] » Um I'm um So everybody loves downtown Madison and

[2:08:50] I think one of the reasons we like it is because it has this cohesiveness. It was

[2:08:54] built, you know, between 1830 and 1870 and we got like the same house repeated

[2:08:58] all over the place, so there's this real continuity. And when you put something

[2:09:02] in that doesn't go with everything around it, it kind of has a jarring

[2:09:06] effect. So that's the only thing I'm worried about here. You have really a

[2:09:10] bunch of houses over there that look very similar. They're board and batten,

[2:09:14] white painted with faux um veneer um like stone or brick on the lower story,

[2:09:19] which I understand you are having here. And then the top, but every building

[2:09:24] over there is sort of wide board plank siding, doesn't have the corner

[2:09:29] detailing There. There it is right there. The board and batten look. So

[2:09:33] they're all the same over there. So then if you build one that looks different,

[2:09:36] then everybody wants their house to look different. I do understand that. But if

[2:09:41] you build one thing that looks different in a whole cluster of

[2:09:44] I think it's about six or seven or eight houses now over there. It's going to

[2:09:48] kind of stand out. I guess it can stand out good

[2:09:50] or it can maybe stand out like whoa, what's that?

[2:09:54] Right. So that's maybe a concern here is this the compatibility and the the sort

[2:09:59] of a fabric over there of things that fit in with each other.

[2:10:03] » Corners and all. >> Well,

[2:10:06] Happy, I think you're exactly right about a new uh

[2:10:11] design typology emerging over on this far east side of town, but I do have to

[2:10:15] take issue with one thing that you said about Madison being built between 1830

[2:10:19] and the 1870s. I live in a 1909 house that I love.

[2:10:25] There are many different different types of buildings

[2:10:29] in Madison. That's one of the strengths of our historic district is its

[2:10:32] diversity and I for one am always a fan of any attempt

[2:10:37] to make something special and to make it different and to put in a little bit

[2:10:41] extra effort towards that end.

[2:10:47] » And there are there are a number of these homes throughout

[2:10:50] » I'm sorry. We're just doing the board deliberation.

[2:10:53] You've already made your case, sir, and you've done it you in my mind you've

[2:10:56] done it well, but I think we need to um keep this to the board.

[2:11:01] Does anyone have any other comments? Um and if not, does any Would anyone like

[2:11:05] to make a motion?

[2:11:13] » I'm still concerned about the siding. >> What are your concerns? I'd love to hear

[2:11:18] them. >> As far as I know, we have one log house

[2:11:22] in town and it's over on Presbyterian over here and it's uh

[2:11:25] it's an old style, you know, like you would see anywhere in the uh out in the

[2:11:29] country built 150 years ago. Um

[2:11:33] I think that we need to be along the lines of uh what the other

[2:11:39] buildings are looking at. Something similar to that.

[2:11:43] Not really have something stand out. Right.

[2:11:49] » I'm sorry. I get we this is our we got to talk right now. We will we will

[2:11:53] directly ask you a question um if necessary.

[2:11:57] So, would I you know, having just just asked the gentleman to refrain, I was

[2:12:03] going to make the exact same point that he just did that I think that this is

[2:12:05] now flat tongue and groove siding as opposed

[2:12:08] to anything resembling a log. I came in very worried about it

[2:12:12] potentially having a rounder profile and reading like a log cabin.

[2:12:17] But you know, you know materials better than than I think any of us up here,

[2:12:20] Bill. So, if you have concerns, is it is it the

[2:12:25] fact that it would just be, you know, what what about the siding concerns you

[2:12:28] knowing that it's a flat >> My main concern would be corners. You

[2:12:31] know, when you have a log siding, you usually have an overlap kind of a, you

[2:12:35] know, alternate overlap. If you're going to have straight corners on it, I can go

[2:12:39] with that. I don't have a problem. I just don't want to see a log cabin, a

[2:12:43] fake log cabin look in that house. But I I don't, you know, after looking

[2:12:48] at your siding a little bit more, I don't think that that would give that

[2:12:51] impression. >> So, I'll ask the applicant to clarify.

[2:12:55] The corners, you said you could do it in one way where they would sort of

[2:12:59] Yeah, where they um

[2:13:01] Would you mind responding to uh board member Jewels' concern about

[2:13:06] the corners? And I know you represented that there were two different ways that

[2:13:09] you could potentially even do them. >> Yeah, when we manufacture the corners,

[2:13:13] we can do it uh We've done 10 of these in Jefferson

[2:13:16] County recently. Uh none in downtown, obviously. So, we

[2:13:21] can uh not put the dovetail block as you will on the corner to appease that and

[2:13:27] just actually have the sidings come together with a traditional, like what

[2:13:32] you saw in the previous picture, a uh 1 by 6 uh trim corner over those if

[2:13:38] that's what this that would be up to. We can go either way.

[2:13:43] » Can you give me an address of one of the ones you've done in Jefferson County?

[2:13:47] » I have a whole list. >> Just one. I'm just trying to try and

[2:13:51] pull up a picture on my phone. >> Pull up a picture of Larry and Rita

[2:13:55] Andrus on Little Cedar. Uh don't have the address memorized.

[2:13:59] » Mhm. Oh, okay. Okay. Well, um okay.

[2:14:05] » Will with that um alteration of the plan for the corners

[2:14:08] help cure some of your concerns? >> That would. Yeah, that would really help

[2:14:11] a lot. >> Would you uh care to maybe offer a

[2:14:15] motion with that concern articulated? >> Sure enough.

[2:14:19] I would like to move that the Madison Historic District Board of Review

[2:14:24] approve your plan for the house as it stands with

[2:14:29] more traditional corners not unlock overlap corner.

[2:14:33] » As described by the applicant. >> As described by the applicant, excuse

[2:14:36] me. >> Do we have a second for that motion?

[2:14:43] » I'll second that. >> Think we should do another roll call

[2:14:47] vote here. Brenna? >> Chris Cody?

[2:14:50] » Approve. >> Happy Smith?

[2:14:51] » Approve. >> Phil Jewel?

[2:14:53] » Approve. >> Jared Anderson?

[2:14:55] » Approve. >> Jade Skillman?

[2:14:56] » Approve. >> Thank you, gentlemen, for talking that

[2:14:59] through with us and >> Thank you for your time.

[2:15:04] » Okay, so now we move on to the new old business portion of the meeting. Uh,

[2:15:10] do we have any old business that we should discuss?

[2:15:13] » not. >> Is there any new business that we should

[2:15:17] discuss? >> Not that I'm aware of unless

[2:15:22] I don't I don't think so. >> I'll also make an offer to the public.

[2:15:25] Is there anything that the public would like to bring to the board's attention?

[2:15:33] Thank you very much. >> Okay.

[2:15:35] Then we will move real quick into staff report. So, this month

[2:15:40] we've had a couple. Um

[2:15:44] couple signs, several fences, um one walkway,

[2:15:49] and some doors and shutters. And then

[2:15:53] for our annual review, all of the projects have been completed.

[2:16:03] » Well, thank you very much, Brenna. Is there any other business that anyone

[2:16:07] on the board would like to address? If not, I'll entertain a motion to adjourn.

[2:16:15] » I move that we adjourn. >> Second.

[2:16:17] » All those in favor? >> Aye.

[2:16:18] » Aye. >> Any opposed?

[2:16:22] Hearing none.

[2:16:27] » Any opposed will leave you here.

[2:16:31] » Well, that

City of Madison Historic District Board of Review - May 26, 2026

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