[1:58] Are you ready?

[1:59] Yeah.

[1:59] OK.

[2:00] Kurt, we're up.

[2:01] Okay.

[2:01] Hello, everyone.

[2:02] The time is 5:03 p.m..

[2:03] Appreciate it.

[2:04] Is August 24 2026.

[2:06] We are here for the Mill Creek City Council work session

[2:09] Present are council members.

[2:10] We be Caton desire it and handy and I'm Sherry Jackson.

[2:14] I'm the mayor and our first item on the agenda

[2:18] is a discussion for the missing middle housing and neighborhoods

[2:22] with Francis Lilly.

[2:23] Our assistance city manager.

[2:25] Tom, I know you've been very involved in this,

[2:28] so there's things You want to chime in on.

[2:31] Good evening Council.

[2:33] Thank you for your time So this follows up on a discussion

[2:36] that you had with Mike at our last meeting

[2:40] and this follows up with the discussion

[2:42] I had with the Planning Commission

[2:45] on Wednesday last Wednesday.

[2:46] So we're Mike, focused on the incentive side of increasing

[2:52] of Utah's supply of affordable housing

[2:54] in Mill Creek I'm going to be walking you through the planning

[2:59] and zoning tools, both the tools we've implemented so far,

[3:04] and some ideas for the future.

[3:07] It's so happens that we are, thanks to you

[3:11] your present decision to set aside some money in our general

[3:14] in our budget, we are working on a general plan update

[3:19] and the timing is right to work this

[3:24] into certain elements of the general plan

[3:26] and in a systematic way so that essentially be what

[3:29] our recommendation is tonight.

[3:30] But I wanted to start with reviewing where reviewing where

[3:37] Mike started his presentation a couple of weeks ago,

[3:39] and that is we do anticipate a fairly significant housing

[3:43] shortage by 2030.

[3:44] And this was data It's a few years old at this point,

[3:47] but this is data of supplied by Zions Bank public Finance

[3:52] to mill Creek for the millcreek housing report in 2024.

[3:56] However, the housing shortage is a little bit more nuanced

[4:00] when you look at the affordability thresholds that

[4:04] are identified in the report and act as kind

[4:08] of a baseline for housing affordability in the county

[4:11] at or below 30%.

[4:13] AMI So 100%.

[4:16] Ami for a family of two is about 70,000.

[4:20] OK So at, at or below 30%, AMI, there's

[4:23] going to be a housing shortage of, of 3401 units by 2030.

[4:28] Now that there's probably nothing

[4:31] that planning regulations set back rules, height rules

[4:35] and the like can do to solve that problem We could help,

[4:39] but we probably won't be able to solve that problem.

[4:41] That requires a level of significant government

[4:44] intervention.

[4:45] It really is that that 80 to 100%

[4:47] am I where maybe planning and zoning can make

[4:51] a significant difference Francis Let me ask a question

[4:54] So you have a jump between It shows

[4:57] that there's units for 50%.

[4:59] Am I then there's a deficit for 80% and then there's we're

[5:04] in the black again, 400%.

[5:06] How does that work?

[5:07] Because couldn't people who are in the 80%,

[5:08] am I i mean, how does that calculate Right.

[5:12] So what that talks about is that if you're if your income.

[5:17] So if you're if you are 50% Ami, what that means

[5:20] is that you can spend x dollars on mortgage or rent.

[5:24] And utilities right at 30% of your income

[5:26] is the category at that level There is anticipated

[5:30] to be a small surplus or 659 units

[5:33] of housing That's probably our 80 use.

[5:37] That's probably you know, some of the class c,

[5:42] you know, existing housing stock that's that's for rent out there

[5:45] That's probably what that is.

[5:47] But but each of those thresholds assumes a certain maximum income

[5:51] that you can allocate to rent but wouldn't then

[5:54] the people who are at 80% AMI I just rent those units?

[5:58] They could They could, but it kind of maybe

[6:01] squishes them, right and a little bit more right.

[6:04] That's a good point Frances, One question about that

[6:08] is that if all things remain the same or is

[6:12] that anticipating some growth in our housing stock.

[6:17] So that that does anticipate that was basically a snapshot.

[6:20] It did anticipate that the projects that we had approved

[6:23] would come online within the 2030 time horizon

[6:27] up to that point So everything that's been approved

[6:31] are entitled assuming it got built would be would be

[6:34] reflective of this Now the truth is every few years,

[6:37] we probably ought to revisit these numbers right

[6:40] And we might be at a point where we want to revisit

[6:42] these numbers, because it is just a point in time count

[6:45] and then, you know, it needs to be reevaluated What I do know is

[6:50] that, you know, mortgage interest rates are still high

[6:53] rent has rent rates have softened just a little bit,

[6:56] but not much.

[6:57] And so I don't anticipate these numbers being dramatically

[7:00] different now But they might be in some cases

[7:03] a little bit worse.

[7:04] And in some cases a little bit better.

[7:06] Can I ask, just to clarify and question on the AMA I

[7:08] so for people who are watching, am I for us is roughly what,

[7:12] 78,000, more or less ?

[7:14] Yeah, for a family of two.

[7:16] So a change is right.

[7:17] So thousand 80% of that that works its way down.

[7:20] Correct.

[7:21] OK.

[7:21] Thank you So another way to look at the housing challenge

[7:24] is the median home value in Millcreek.

[7:26] And this is from Zillow As of today, it changes quite a bit,

[7:30] but according to Zillow, the median home value is 640,335

[7:34] bucks, which means that half of the homes

[7:37] in the market are worth less Half the homes

[7:39] in the market are worth more.

[7:40] And understand to be affordable at 100%.

[7:43] Am I based on what we expect mortgage

[7:47] interest rates to be right now?

[7:49] An affordable house is 400, about about $451,000.

[7:52] OK.

[7:53] So most of our housing stock is priced well above affordability,

[7:59] but interestingly enough, the most interesting

[8:01] this is this graph that I found right.

[8:03] And you can see what's happened between 2019 and 2022.

[8:07] This wasn't always the story in Millcreek right Millcreek

[8:10] has always been known for an abundance of real high end

[8:13] housing But there was also housing

[8:15] opportunity down the line.

[8:16] And within the last within the last five years or so,

[8:20] that has changed pretty dramatically in our community.

[8:22] As it has elsewhere along the Wasatch Front

[8:26] So this next phase of this presentation

[8:29] really will go into a progress report on what we've done so

[8:34] far for affordable housing We pulled from our general plan

[8:39] to do this, to do this quick presentation for you next week I

[8:44] should have actually a full progress report on the entirety

[8:47] of our general plan where we look at every general plan goal

[8:50] and list out what we've what we've done so far.

[8:54] But for now, I want to just talk about housing.

[8:56] So both the general plan and state mandates

[8:59] required compelled us or encouraged

[9:02] us to to work on some station area

[9:06] plans to accommodate affordable housing in our Meadowbrook area.

[9:10] You know, ironically we had a lot of zoning

[9:12] in place that would support affordable housing,

[9:14] but we didn't have plans So this council approved the meadowbrook

[9:21] and Mill Creek Master plan and the Murray North Master Plan,

[9:23] both of which are stationed here.

[9:24] Plans and within the station areas or between them to we

[9:31] have approved since 2018 390 affordable housing units that

[9:35] are built or under construction in in in the in the Murray North

[9:40] and Meadowbrook Station area stationary plans the project

[9:44] to you right which is Howick is 140

[9:47] units of deeply affordable housing

[9:49] from I believe 35 to 65%.

[9:51] Am I It's a big project.

[9:53] It's a big deal for the community We've done progress.

[9:56] We've also approved through development agreement

[10:00] We've worked on affordability targets and we've and we that

[10:04] have yielded 30 new affordable housing units that are entitled

[10:06] six of which are built. That's the Capri homes at about 3,500

[10:10] south northeast Those are both deed

[10:13] restricted for affordability and owner occupancy.

[10:16] We did that without any sort of incentive.

[10:17] We just did it because it was the right thing to do.

[10:19] And and the developer was willing to do it.

[10:22] The project on the left is m.S. 2923

[10:25] In a condo project, the city council

[10:27] approved just about a month and a half ago.

[10:29] And that project, if you remember also

[10:32] involves participation with some of the incentives

[10:34] that Mike discussed at the meeting last week

[10:37] or last Two weeks ago Since 2024, we have

[10:41] reason for additional density.

[10:43] OK.

[10:43] We've done this all over the place,

[10:45] but I wanted to call out three particular units that

[10:47] were on corridors or near corridor

[10:49] or near areas of transit but also these are projects.

[10:53] This list of five projects are ones that the council,

[10:57] in its deliberation and almost treated either affordability

[11:00] or owner occupancy or both as a sort of tiebreaker

[11:04] because the future land use map calls for certain thresholds

[11:07] on densities.

[11:08] And in some of these cases, the council

[11:10] has exceeded those thresholds because it met other targets

[11:13] in the general plan, including the provision

[11:15] of some sort of affordability target and/or owner occupancy.

[11:18] The project on the left on Garden Drive, our six CPLEX,

[11:22] right.

[11:22] And you remember we went through the process of working with them

[11:25] on designing these these units to look

[11:28] a resemble single family homes and

[11:30] they're under construction now.

[11:32] On the right is is the project at 4317

[11:34] south 700 east if you recall that's kind

[11:37] of a blended density that's that's a blended density

[11:40] and mixed affordable project.

[11:42] It's all market driven.

[11:43] So we don't have a subsidy in, in in either of these projects

[11:47] But I'm confident that the 14 units in the front,

[11:50] which are indicated by this elevation on the right,

[11:53] are going to be affordable just by virtue of their size

[11:57] and the way they're configured in the building.

[11:59] And this is a pretty good looking

[12:00] building from the street.

[12:02] So how big are these units Oh, gosh, about

[12:05] 8 or 900ft² or one bedroom?

[12:07] Yeah.

[12:07] Our studio the one bedroom, 1 or 1

[12:09] bedroom, maybe 2, and some of them same with the Six CPLEX.

[12:13] The six CPLEX is a little bit bigger so they're probably

[12:16] two bed each of those Okay We have also reduced

[12:22] or you have reduced setbacks.

[12:24] Just an envelope requirements and

[12:26] increased lot coverage and smaller residential zones.

[12:28] These are relatively recent changes

[12:29] that we haven't seen a whole lot of action in the space,

[12:32] but we looked at the modest by design, if not because Two homes

[12:39] in daybreak to be a model for how we might make

[12:44] our one for our one, three, and our own five zones

[12:47] work a little bit better and we have we've

[12:51] made these adjustments to actually make

[12:53] it a little bit more easier for a home like this

[12:56] to be built in Mill Creek.

[13:00] I am anecdotal Ali, seeing a lot more interest in additions now

[13:05] I'm not seeing a lot of people beating

[13:07] down the door to build a house like this, though, right?

[13:10] What what people want to build is

[13:11] something far more, far more significant,

[13:14] even if it's on a small lot.

[13:16] But we have that there Oh, I'm sorry.

[13:20] That was from the previous slide Anyway,

[13:23] the the other project I want to talk about

[13:26] is this is interesting This will be the first time

[13:28] you've seen this.

[13:30] And this will probably be the last time you've seen this.

[13:32] And let me explain why.

[13:34] In 2025, as we did our zoning and subdivision code update,

[13:38] one of the things that the council decided

[13:40] was that affordable housing would be a permitted use,

[13:43] not a conditional use not a development agreement.

[13:46] It permitted use of the Planning Commission

[13:47] is not really going to see this project

[13:49] either Are solid County Housing authority which is now known

[13:52] as Housing Connect owns the owns the historic trailer

[13:56] park on Park Hill way between Second and third East.

[13:59] And they've owned it for a number

[14:01] of years They bought the trailers in fairly bad shape

[14:04] and maintain them.

[14:05] And eventually is working on a plan to rehouse the residents

[14:09] in these trailers.

[14:10] Most of them are aging out of the they're aging in place

[14:15] and substandard situation I was relieved that the county housing

[14:18] authority bought this project because I knew that it would

[14:20] take care of the clients there.

[14:22] Right.

[14:22] And in fact, they have a whole continuum

[14:24] of housing that would fit very well

[14:27] for what these folks needed.

[14:30] They never owned or they may have owned the trailers,

[14:33] but they never owned the land So it

[14:34] was always communally owned Well,

[14:36] here's what they want to do.

[14:39] They want to do 70 units of deeply affordable housing 35%.

[14:43] Am I?

[14:44] It's precisely at that target that we really

[14:46] can't do much by zoning But what we can do

[14:50] is we can make it easier for them to permit the project right

[14:53] and time equals money, especially

[14:56] for affordable housing projects where

[14:57] they're pursuing low income housing

[14:59] tax credits and the like.

[15:00] Right So they're actually pursuing a low income housing

[15:03] tax credit as a permitted project,

[15:05] not as a conditional use, not as a development agreement using

[15:08] the design standards that we have in our code

[15:10] And that's the type of building that it produces.

[15:14] We're pretty proud of this.

[15:15] We've just worked with them as staff to kind of come up

[15:17] with this project and 70 units of deeply affordable

[15:20] housing on the East side.

[15:22] I'm sorry, on the west side of this, they will be rentals.

[15:25] Yep Owned and managed by housing connect, which is the Salt

[15:29] Lake County Housing Authority.

[15:31] So this project is made possible by the permitted use provision

[15:36] and the density bonuses that are available in our code

[15:39] for affordable housing This is what the site

[15:42] plan is going to look like.

[15:43] So it will have covered parking a large garden on

[15:47] and you're looking at the West half of the site, right?

[15:49] If you look at the East, half of this bow tie shaped piece

[15:53] they want to subdivide that for affordable owner

[15:55] occupied housing, some sort of townhome

[15:57] or row home development.

[15:59] Again, it will be permitted use it'll be a straightforward

[16:02] subdivision and this wouldn't be possible right without

[16:05] or wouldn't be possible in this format.

[16:07] And at the speed without the changes that we made in the code

[16:13] we've let the state in permitting

[16:14] detached accessory dwelling units,

[16:17] we've approved at least 87 of them

[16:19] so far We also made it easier to expand a home

[16:23] or build a home on a small lot.

[16:25] Francis i'm sorry, I have a question

[16:27] on the last the park hill.

[16:28] Yeah.

[16:29] Was that was were any of those units

[16:32] going to be geared to seniors citizens at some point Yes.

[16:37] Most most.

[16:38] If not all of those units will be senior housing OK.

[16:41] And functionally, it's permanent supportive housing for seniors.

[16:44] It's independent living Right.

[16:46] So it's not permanent supportive housing in the sense

[16:48] that switch point is permanent supportive housing.

[16:50] But it really is kind of like the last stop

[16:54] to prevent these veteran, these folks

[16:56] from becoming homeless Right.

[16:57] I'm sorry.

[16:57] And did you say that housing Connect is helping to relocate

[17:02] some of the existing residents or they already did that,

[17:05] or they're in process They're in process.

[17:07] Now.

[17:07] Are any of is there any plans to bring

[17:09] those people into this housing?

[17:11] Yes We have led the state in permitting 80 years.

[17:18] We have approved at least 87.

[17:20] So far.

[17:20] This is the number that we reported to the housing

[17:24] to the Department of Workforce Services this year.

[17:26] And we've also made it easier to expand

[17:28] home or build on a small lot.

[17:29] And we did that by adjusting building envelopes

[17:32] and by you know, clarifying lot coverage and the like.

[17:35] This is important This is kind of a sleeper issue.

[17:37] This doesn't necessarily show up theoretically,

[17:39] as an affordable housing issue.

[17:41] But what that's what this does is it allows someone

[17:44] to reinvest in their property to update it, thereby relieving

[17:47] pressure on the market, you know,

[17:49] because they would otherwise move somewhere else.

[17:51] Yeah And so I think these little also the cheapest of the most

[17:58] readily available affording affordable housing stock,

[18:00] you have is the one that you have right

[18:02] It's in our neighborhoods now And so the extent to which we

[18:06] can allow people to build on their equity,

[18:10] make it easier to live, make it easier to maybe

[18:12] to rent a portion of their home also

[18:15] helps the affordability target by,

[18:17] you know, just providing more opportunities.

[18:19] Right We have reason to accommodate housing and centers.

[18:23] These two examples.

[18:24] One is the homes on the corner of Villa Vista in Richmond

[18:27] and the other on the right are the new residences at olympus

[18:34] Cove Now, these are interesting because neither these

[18:37] could conceivably be classified as affordable housing.

[18:41] But again, if you're thinking about,

[18:44] you know, a strategy that is universal in its scope

[18:48] there is a place for simply expanding housing supply.

[18:51] Right and allowing allowing people to move

[18:54] upmarket when they need to move or when they desire to move up

[18:57] market, which again relieves pressure downstream in the class

[19:01] B, Class C space for rentals and and existing homes

[19:05] for mortgages We also embrace supportive housing.

[19:11] OK.

[19:11] This is a special this is a special one for me, right?

[19:14] Because it's not really a planning regulatory posture

[19:19] that we've taken but it is direction.

[19:21] I've taken from the city council to work proactively

[19:24] with the service providers to make sure that it's

[19:28] a good benefit to the community and most importantly,

[19:31] a good benefit to the residents there.

[19:33] And you know, Mayor Jackson, Councilmember handy,

[19:36] you've been very helpful, too, in engaging switch

[19:39] point in in this project.

[19:42] But we don't do it with just switch point right ?

[19:44] I work.

[19:45] I mean i meet quarterly with the valley Oaks for example,

[19:50] and we have engaged proactively to, as PD requests with Odyssey

[19:57] house with Turning Point with Oasis,

[20:02] it's important to build relationships with them.

[20:04] It's important to build at least enough camarade agree with them.

[20:08] Between us and the operator and the resident that it really

[20:12] does make a difference when when,

[20:15] when a challenge occurs Right?

[20:17] So here's an example.

[20:18] This is the most effective example

[20:19] that we have And it's also also credit promise

[20:23] for helping set this up, too.

[20:25] But at the first anniversary of Switch point,

[20:29] you showed up and and delivered ice cream.

[20:32] And there's a photo of that.

[20:33] So we do embrace support of permanent supportive housing,

[20:36] but we don't do it in a way that's hands off.

[20:38] Right.

[20:39] We know that's that supportive housing comes

[20:42] with some some trade, some and potentially some risks

[20:47] if that relationship isn't handled well.

[20:51] And we are really proud amongst city staff

[20:54] and in this department and with update and promise

[20:57] for you know working proactively with these service providers

[21:00] though thanks to everybody in earshot for helping that That's

[21:06] what we've done so far right They don't want us to feel bad

[21:09] But the question is, how have we moved the dial enough?

[21:13] Maybe not.

[21:13] Maybe there's more we can do.

[21:15] And here are some policy options that we discussed

[21:18] with the housing subcommittee on the Planning Commission

[21:21] with the full plenary planning Commission,

[21:24] and now are discussing with you.

[21:26] One option is to subdivide or allow for 80 years

[21:30] to be subdivided.

[21:31] We already allow them in most cases

[21:33] But right now that ownership has to be

[21:36] tethered to the same owner, right?

[21:39] So the 80 you cannot be sold or lease or conveyed separately,

[21:43] but some cities are thinking of creating that option subject

[21:47] to a deed restriction, ensuring owner occupancy for both

[21:50] lots So the one advantage to this

[21:53] is that the uses already there.

[21:54] So the real question is, what does the ownership

[21:57] mean The other advantages on a dollar for dollar basis, right?

[22:01] A modest 88 800ft² is going to be

[22:05] much more affordable than, you know,

[22:08] the 3,000 square foot home.

[22:09] That's it's next time.

[22:10] So it provides a relatively inexpensive market driven

[22:13] solution for affordable home ownership and other cities

[22:15] have tried this, right?

[22:17] It doesn't necessarily change the built character

[22:20] of a single family neighborhood because those 80

[22:21] use are already there.

[22:23] However, it might make it a little bit more likely

[22:25] that someone will do an 80 year if they know that they

[22:27] can sell it in the future.

[22:29] But it also challenges the notion

[22:31] of what a single household zone and a lot.

[22:33] So with a certain lot size minimum

[22:35] means and that that may require a little bit

[22:40] of soul searching with our neighborhoods

[22:42] right the next steps.

[22:47] The next steps on that in the subsequent

[22:49] slides, we'll get to in just a minute The other question is

[22:54] and we've wrestled with this in this body just a few weeks ago,

[22:58] should we require and for affordable city

[23:00] component for reasons requesting more density.

[23:03] So Farmington actually requires this.

[23:04] So in other words, if you come in and ask

[23:07] for a reason for greater density beyond a certain scope

[23:11] Farmington Code will require you to do a certain component

[23:14] of that project as affordable Specifically,

[23:17] the general plan calls us out as an option There are trade here,

[23:23] too.

[23:23] It may not be effective unless it's done at scale.

[23:26] So like stone Brook, which is about 160 units,

[23:28] I'm not sure that it makes sense for a small project

[23:30] because imagine you're doing rezoning for units, right?

[23:34] And you say, well, 25% of those for units or one unit

[23:37] needs to be affordable What what's really happening,

[23:40] then is the developer is just subsidizing

[23:42] the cost of that affordable unit and amortizing

[23:44] out across the other three.

[23:46] I'm not sure that that makes that big of a difference,

[23:48] but it might be, but it might make a difference at scale.

[23:52] However, I also know that land is really, really really,

[23:56] really, really expensive And if we had this requirement,

[23:59] it might just stop development in certain areas.

[24:01] Right?

[24:02] Do you know Farmington has had any like qualms about developers

[24:08] coming in and saying like, well, we

[24:09] don't want to participate Like, do they have has it slowed

[24:12] their development in any way?

[24:14] I don't I don't think so.

[24:17] Farmington is mostly infill now.

[24:20] I mean, around Station Park, they've

[24:21] done a lot of affordable stuff already

[24:23] for like tax credit, whatnot.

[24:25] But interestingly enough, Silvia is the the developers

[24:31] are tying this affordability component

[24:33] to that adu subdivision idea.

[24:36] So you'll actually have a developer come in

[24:38] and say, I want to do single family homes,

[24:40] but I'm going to subdivide these these, these Adu lots.

[24:44] And that's the bank.

[24:46] And that might make sense for Farmington

[24:48] because they have what they, what they have most of

[24:50] and that's not a lot is just infill single family right

[24:57] another option.

[24:58] And councilmember desire has suggested this is something

[25:03] to consider should we consider up zoning for higher densities

[25:06] near public schools Now I approached this question

[25:08] to the Planning Commission.

[25:09] And they had some interesting ideas to One idea.

[25:13] And Tom, correct me if I'm wrong or feel free to step in,

[25:17] but a well-designed overlay zone or alternative development

[25:20] standard could secure affordable ownership opportunities.

[25:22] Areas closest to schools that face declining enrollment.

[25:25] The goal here is to create the type of housing that

[25:28] is attractive to those types of families that would go

[25:30] to the schools and would essentially, you know,

[25:32] prevent these schools from from closing.

[25:37] And in the concept could be duplexes.

[25:39] Triplexes fourplex is in areas within a quarter

[25:43] or half a mile of a public school.

[25:45] Of course, there are some considerations in order to make

[25:49] it family friendly right?

[25:50] You would need to have a relatively high number

[25:52] of minimum, a number of bedrooms to make it work,

[25:55] which means you would need to work on parking, which also

[25:58] means that you would need to somehow work out

[26:00] some sort of plan for deed restrictions

[26:01] to ensure affordability or occupancy The Planning

[26:06] Commission was intrigued by this idea, To be honest

[26:09] and in fact, a couple of them said,

[26:11] should we consider hospitals and parks as also opportunities

[26:14] for this type of concept recognizing that, you know

[26:18] our single family neighborhoods in many cases

[26:21] aren't really single family neighborhoods,

[26:23] What they are mixed right?

[26:24] Most of our neighborhoods in no creek are mixed.

[26:26] Not all, but many of them are.

[26:29] And One thing that was mentioned is

[26:32] this could be tied to preapproved house plans So here

[26:35] are some examples from South Bend where they've actually

[26:40] essentially developed these preapproved house

[26:44] plans that, you know, someone can come in and buy

[26:47] and your plan reviews are already done.

[26:49] Right You just have to do a quick code review to make sure

[26:52] that it fits on the lot And South Bend has gone

[26:55] into enough detail where they've said,

[26:57] you know, this six unit apartment building

[26:59] is allowed in certain areas.

[27:01] And this two bedroom cottage is allowed in certain areas.

[27:04] It's very neighborhood specific I bring this up because there's

[27:08] movement at the state level, maybe to help

[27:11] support cities to do this.

[27:13] There's also grant money available

[27:14] through the new bipartisan housing bill that was set aside.

[27:18] This could be a way to do it It requires us to really understand

[27:22] what the building envelope is, and that's

[27:23] why, in a kind of a previous discussion

[27:25] we mentioned, we might want to set aside some money to actually

[27:28] have an architect explore how these units would fit

[27:31] within our existing building envelope,

[27:33] because all things being equal, right, as long

[27:35] as you handle the parking and as long as you handle, you know,

[27:38] coverage setback and height, if you can design these things

[27:41] to look as much like a single family home

[27:43] they might not look that much different than the duplexes

[27:46] or triplexes We already have in many of our neighborhoods.

[27:49] But this requires I think, a lot of study and work

[27:53] I'm also not sure that there's a guarantee

[27:55] that families with school age children will attend

[27:57] and there's really no way for us to force that to happen

[28:00] for a fair housing rules.

[28:01] So i think I think this is definitely

[28:05] worth this is definitely worth pursuing you know, understanding

[28:09] that there's you know, engagement and trade to be

[28:12] had here and ask a question.

[28:14] Yes.

[28:14] So I know the majority of our schools are in Beds district.

[28:19] I they're in a lot of the older neighborhoods.

[28:23] I'm thinking of like district Three.

[28:25] I know there's areas where people have wanted.

[28:28] They've had larger lots and wanted to subdivide

[28:31] and they couldn't because the waterline is not

[28:34] large enough to support that.

[28:36] And I mean, and throughout the whole neighborhood.

[28:37] So has there been a conversation with Salt Lake

[28:40] City public utilities or anything because that would

[28:42] require additional water that would require separate metering

[28:47] and not only with water, but with power and gas

[28:51] and all of that which is might be a heavy lift.

[28:56] Has there been conversations?

[28:57] Not yet.

[28:59] I mean and we're actually going to recommend kind of a process

[29:04] to begin those conversations in a way that allows

[29:08] these ideas to develop and Francis has some good thoughts

[29:13] on how we'll be able to continue to say

[29:15] and flesh those out in a slide or two.

[29:16] So some of these questions might be answered shortly Yeah.

[29:19] All right.

[29:20] So another option is housing preservation

[29:22] And don't ever be sorry Housing preservation.

[29:26] And should the question here is, should

[29:28] the city require that affordable housing be replaced?

[29:31] If it is demolished ?

[29:32] This issue came up with the expansion of St Mark's, which

[29:35] took out 6 or 7 units. in that case,

[29:38] there was enough community reinvest money set aside

[29:42] to help offset that through, you know,

[29:44] some of the other city's housing goals.

[29:46] But salt Lake City has adopted an ordinance

[29:48] that prohibits the demolition of housing

[29:50] and commercial parking lots.

[29:51] And this topic is this topic came up.

[29:54] The planning commission was really mixed on this right?

[29:58] There was concern about how this could be a very rough tool

[30:03] and that maybe the city's best interest is

[30:07] deployed in a more demand side or supply

[30:11] or demand side approach.

[30:13] But there are some planning commissioners that felt really

[30:15] strongly that we ought to consider this I will say

[30:18] that the St Mark's project was the first time that I witnessed

[30:22] housing being removed for a commercial use

[30:26] and not a mixed use, right.

[30:28] Most of the time housing is demolished for more housing.

[30:30] There were handfuls a scattering of housing units

[30:33] on top of city hall.

[30:34] But now there's much more around us

[30:36] commercial encroachment into neighborhood

[30:38] residential neighborhoods is rare and protecting,

[30:41] but protecting existing housing is the easiest strategy

[30:44] and it does relieve some development pressure.

[30:45] Now, real quick, right I think there

[30:51] are there are policy statements in our general plan

[30:54] and then there are ordinances that are hard and fast rules.

[30:57] This could be a policy statement and a general plan

[31:00] to help guide development decisions in the future.

[31:04] It does not necessarily need to be an ordinance

[31:06] And then finally, missing middle reasons.

[31:09] So the question here is like, should we

[31:11] reconsider our zoning map and our flu map to encourage

[31:13] missing middle housing?

[31:14] Just look at it more globally.

[31:16] So functionally, many of our neighborhoods

[31:18] have duplexes in them due to historic zoning

[31:22] This would unlock the possibility of gentle density

[31:24] if we did it the right way.

[31:26] We have a general plan that supports

[31:27] this idea in part right?

[31:30] There are some specific goals called out

[31:31] that talked about you know, making, you know,

[31:34] targeted interventions into our single family neighborhoods

[31:36] to support higher density where appropriate

[31:39] However, the general plan also calls out for keeping

[31:41] these single family neighborhoods intact

[31:44] Our Northeast Corridor study that we did last year

[31:47] identified maybe some opportunities along the corridor

[31:49] that we could expand options for housing.

[31:52] However, this requires substantial engagement and study

[31:55] and this might require a more granular approach

[31:57] to our future land use map that then than the current map really

[32:01] allows us to do which is one of the reasons why we requested

[32:05] as staff some money to redo our general plan So here's

[32:09] our recommendation This came from the Planning

[32:11] Commission meeting.

[32:12] And this came from a discussion with staff

[32:14] what they would like us to do now

[32:16] or what they would suggest that we do now is that we adopt

[32:19] the third South and Northeast Corridor plan

[32:21] So I'm going to take that to the Planning Commission

[32:23] in the next couple of months in this fall

[32:25] will bring that to you.

[32:26] They also recommended that we actually

[32:28] make some tweaks to the future land use

[32:30] map of the Northeast corridor.

[32:32] You know early this year or later this year or early next,

[32:35] because that's where we are seeing a lot

[32:36] of the development pressure.

[32:38] We could do that now.

[32:39] We don't have to wait The planning Commission

[32:41] had an interesting idea.

[32:42] Invite developers who specialize in missing middle housing

[32:45] to a strategy meeting and begin to build

[32:47] a relationship with them.

[32:49] The truth is the type of development

[32:50] that I'm seeing right now is not accommodating this right.

[32:53] Most of the people who come to us sight unseen

[32:56] want to build townhomes right?

[32:58] And and those townhomes are they want to sell for three quarters

[33:01] of $1 million, which is crazy.

[33:03] But that's the way that that's what the market.

[33:07] But that's what the market is presenting to us.

[33:09] I would like to get you know, people in the room who are who

[33:12] are who are really interested in building modest homes

[33:15] and just see how that works.

[33:17] And what, if anything, is in the way and what,

[33:20] if anything, can the city do now to consider as part

[33:24] of the general plan update The just to, you know,

[33:27] the planning commission was pretty

[33:28] warm to you know, any or all of these ideas,

[33:30] to varying intensities.

[33:31] But they felt pretty strongly that you know,

[33:35] since we're going to be doing a general plan that we really

[33:37] ought to roll these conversations

[33:39] into that whole process and i thought to myself,

[33:42] a general plan is a two year document, right?

[33:44] I don't want necessarily want to wait two years.

[33:46] How might we roll the how how might

[33:48] we roll this into the process to give us and you the option

[33:52] to make some policy decisions more rapidly,

[33:55] you know, given the urgency of the housing issues

[33:58] So Isaac jested that we actually start Arkansas Colton

[34:02] Right on the process of doing targeted policy

[34:06] briefings on these ideas.

[34:09] School oriented development design considerations

[34:11] missing military zones, housing preservation strategies

[34:14] in general, and subdividing ideas

[34:16] to look at the trade to engage the public

[34:20] on the specific topic.

[34:21] I don't necessarily want to go back to the public and say,

[34:23] Do you want more housing?

[34:25] Right?

[34:26] But what I want to do is go to the public and like,

[34:28] here are some options.

[34:29] What do you think the policy brief would review literature

[34:34] and gather data and the policy brief

[34:36] would make recommendations?

[34:37] What I'm anticipating is that these policy briefs will

[34:39] be delivered to you 1 or 2 at a time,

[34:42] and then we can actually begin to move on.

[34:45] Ordinance changes at that time, if the City Council does,

[34:49] if the city council desires.

[34:51] The advantage of that is that each of these items

[34:54] requires a healthy amount of engagement and pretty

[34:58] sophisticated engagement to.

[35:00] Secondly it might benefit us to have a third party just handle

[35:04] that conversation because some of these conversations,

[35:07] although the reality is, you know the reality is they

[35:10] may not make that much of a difference

[35:11] in our neighborhood cycle.

[35:13] Logically, they can be a big difference to people,

[35:15] right, in how they conceive of them, how

[35:18] they perceive their neighborhoods

[35:19] and our needs have help with that.

[35:21] Right.

[35:21] That's not something that I don't think I could lead out

[35:24] on successfully for the city.

[35:27] Right.

[35:28] That and that's that's sometimes why we hire consultants to kind

[35:31] of help us almost act as a buffer

[35:34] and to give the residents a kind of a third party

[35:36] to have these kind of candid, sometimes fraught discussions

[35:39] on, but also they have the time.

[35:42] And they have the ability to really look broadly

[35:46] And, we're busy kind of doing other things.

[35:48] So I thought this might be a good approach

[35:51] My goal here is to not kind of sit on these right once.

[35:55] For example, the school or in a development thing was done.

[35:58] We would bring it to you.

[35:59] And we would, you know, we would present the policy brief we

[36:02] would look at the trade offs.

[36:03] We would give you an analysis of the data.

[36:05] We would report on community feedback and then we would,

[36:09] you know allow you to kind of make a decision at that point.

[36:12] And we would do each of these in sequence.

[36:15] And what do you think I have a few questions.

[36:18] I can your butt back one slide.

[36:21] So this is what you're presenting

[36:23] and I thank you for the very thoughtful just analysis of all

[36:27] this I'll tell you for me, I would really

[36:29] like to look at what the missing middle zone middle reasons

[36:33] could look like.

[36:35] And this is I might be jumping around in this,

[36:37] but the anticipation of what housing will cost

[36:41] when the Olympics come or as labor and the economy

[36:46] increases as far as how it's associated with the Olympics

[36:52] I mean, that cost of living is going to go up significantly.

[36:55] So that is a future.

[36:56] But having that larger perspective of knowing

[36:59] that housing is going to increase, I'd really like,

[37:03] at least for me, I'd like to see how

[37:04] we address the missing middle reasons

[37:07] or however this is priority test.

[37:09] Second is the school oriented development

[37:14] because the majority of the schools are in my district,

[37:16] I'm just thinking a mile, two mile and a half

[37:19] is the potential for this to look at future rezoning

[37:23] because there's a lot of single family homes that are currently

[37:27] there Does that entail the city coming in to buy homes to then

[37:32] create, or is this a phase out of those,

[37:36] say say, a developer purchases 2 or 3 homes who happen

[37:40] which happened to be on sale.

[37:43] Does that entail Oh, I'm just thinking of all the schools

[37:47] and a quarter mile to a mile from those schools

[37:50] are all still very I can answer that question.

[37:55] OK.

[37:55] So when I First started looking into this,

[37:57] I had Brian Poole on Map and I can get you

[38:01] that map of what it would look like if it

[38:04] was a mile around every school.

[38:06] And if it was a mile around every school.

[38:08] It's effectively the entire city by thought is really

[38:13] it should just be a quarter mile And then second, it wouldn't we

[38:19] wouldn't have the city doing this.

[38:20] It would just be an overlay zone where if I developer wants

[38:23] to go and buy a house that's up for sale

[38:26] and is willing to go put in a 3 to four bedroom units

[38:32] that have enough parking and that are for sale

[38:35] and deed restricted, they would be able to do that.

[38:39] And then I also thank you.

[38:41] I appreciate and I would love to see them out.

[38:43] One of the other concerns.

[38:45] I have, too, is just the recent school closure

[38:50] discussions that we've had.

[38:52] So when we're looking at the school oriented development

[38:54] with school closures happening does

[38:57] the overlay of around the schools that could potentially.

[39:01] I mean, birth rates not going up significantly

[39:04] you know, right now.

[39:05] So as we see a decline in the birth rates are we

[39:11] are we conscious of how that affects

[39:16] the zones around the schools?

[39:18] If they are potentially going to be closed?

[39:20] And the intent was the initial intent

[39:23] was to entice young families to kind of keep those schools open.

[39:28] Mm hmm.

[39:28] So I'm just I'm throwing it out there,

[39:30] know the mayor and council, these are good questions.

[39:32] And there's no way we'll be able to answer them all.

[39:34] Obviously, in this forum or this afternoon But I think Francis

[39:38] and planning's request is, hey, that they're already proceeding

[39:41] with the general plan update It's in the budget

[39:43] for this fiscal year.

[39:44] Should they be looking at some of these specific housing

[39:47] strategies and maybe some other ones?

[39:49] And the third party experts will get in and come back

[39:51] and say, you know what, that's a good idea or you know what?

[39:54] This idea doesn't really pencil or.

[39:56] And so his question, the thing he wants you to think of tonight

[40:00] is, are these Five good things that we should have the analysis

[40:05] of the general plan update look at and/or are there other things

[40:07] that you may think of, you don't even

[40:09] have to answer that tonight.

[40:10] The point of tonight was just kind of a bit of a thought

[40:12] starter and we certainly have other work

[40:14] meetings in the future to discuss housing to Yeah,

[40:17] absolutely.

[40:18] And just thinking about the school oriented design and Bev's

[40:21] district, if you're looking at Skyline, Wasatch Upland Terrace,

[40:25] that's pretty I mean, a quarter of a mile, that's pretty much

[40:27] that whole stretch of East Millcreek I'm concerned

[40:30] that there aren't any representatives from District

[40:32] four that have been involved in this discussion

[40:35] because the Planning Commissioners are

[40:36] are in district to i don't know if they're in District three,

[40:40] but that's that's that the neighborhood that really is

[40:44] because it's seven seven schools in district Four that's that's

[40:48] the neighborhood that is going to be

[40:50] most heavily impacted and changed

[40:52] if that were to come about.

[40:54] So I'd really like to get a lot of feedback

[40:56] from people who live in that neighborhood

[40:59] just to kind of gauge the temperature on and what that

[41:03] looks like, because I also gauging the temperature

[41:06] you can determine where the priorities go in Like

[41:11] I think this is a great plan, and do we move to design

[41:14] considerations not to see any diminish in any means anyway

[41:18] Sure.

[41:19] But it allows at least some of the resident to be

[41:23] more impacted and potentially even granted school.

[41:26] I mean, yeah they may know things we don't

[41:29] know about school closures.

[41:30] I don't we don't know It'd be helpful to know

[41:34] to i don't think they know anything at this Okay.

[41:39] Thank you.

[41:40] That was my feedback.

[41:41] Yeah.

[41:41] No, thank you.

[41:42] So are you looking for any more direction from us tonight,

[41:44] or is this just kind of to get the conversation

[41:46] started and will come back?

[41:47] I think i think the do.

[41:49] Now the three that you have make sense.

[41:51] And I think that's something we can start moving ahead on.

[41:55] OK that future land use map and zone

[41:58] changes in the in the general plan

[42:00] update that's that's a longer.

[42:03] I think items four and five mayor will come back to you

[42:05] in the coming weeks and months though not tons and months,

[42:08] but as we pick a consult in and give direction

[42:11] we agree this is something we need

[42:12] to get ahead of so that we're not really behind the curve,

[42:16] especially with So I'll leave you with this.

[42:20] When we did our last general plan,

[42:21] there was no staff and about two thirds of the way through it,

[42:24] I was hired This time we have a staff of ten, right?

[42:30] And so we're approaching this general plan a little bit

[42:32] differently.

[42:33] I don't need the consultant to come in and write

[42:36] the whole thing right.

[42:37] We could do it ourselves.

[42:38] We have an amazing amazing, highly skilled, very competent

[42:43] cartographer in our department who can

[42:45] actually do a lot of this, too.

[42:46] And he's already doing some of the analysis Sean

[42:49] and Brad and Carlos are working with me on this, too.

[42:52] So we're going to be in the pilot seat in this general plan.

[42:55] And so what I need the consultant to do

[42:57] is really some very discrete tasks,

[43:01] right And the other thing I don't want to do

[43:03] is just kind of throw them into a public meaning

[43:05] that's entirely open ended.

[43:06] I think it's I think i think our discussions will be far more

[43:09] successful if they're far more targeted And I'm, you know,

[43:12] grateful to Councilmember Josiah and grateful to the rest

[43:15] of the council for giving us some kind of ideas to chew on.

[43:17] Right.

[43:18] And I think I think I think you'll get some good feedback.

[43:21] Right, because that's very specific.

[43:23] And it's very like down to earth and and it can get kind of

[43:26] into the it can cut to the quick and it'll be good It'll be good.

[43:30] So thank you.

[43:32] Thank you.

[43:33] Thank you.

[43:34] Thank you very much.

[43:35] OK We are to the field trip portion of our work session.

[43:40] So are we ready to go?

[43:42] A recorder mentions that you should probably

[43:43] adjourn actually when you come in for the stand

[43:45] to adjourn second.

[43:47] All in favor I.

City Council Work Meeting

Transcript