[0:04] All right, we will call the work session to order. Call the roll, please.

[0:10] » Brown. >> Here.

[0:11] » Calvin. >> Here.

[0:13] » Cornelius. >> Here.

[0:14] » Pratt. >> Here.

[0:16] » McGehee Ready. >> Here.

[0:17] » Wick. >> Here.

[0:18] » Yore. >> Okay.

[0:22] This is the portion of the work session that we invite the public to address the

[0:26] commission. If you would like to do so, we ask that you come to the microphone,

[0:30] give us your full name, residential address, and abide by our 3-minute rule.

[0:37] Okay, seeing none, we will move on to our discussion of our rental ordinance

[0:41] amendments, Mr. Shipman. >> Well, I don't remember the last time we

[0:46] talked about it, but I know your request is simply just from the city attorney,

[0:49] which she did, and I sent that to you by email a couple weeks ago and once I

[0:54] got it, a couple hard copies of the first

[0:57] » I got I got you. I got I got hard copies if anybody would like

[1:00] » Awesome.

[1:12] » Just this once. >> We need the latest one.

[1:15] » I just read pages of it yesterday, and like I can't remember good enough.

[1:19] » Yeah. >> The opportunities present itself.

[1:22] » I tried reading it digitally and my eyes were just

[1:26] No, no idea what I just read. Got to do it on paper.

[1:35] » So, I don't know if you >> I would say

[1:38] » requested anything additional um to what we've already changed to this

[1:42] point. >> Yeah. Um

[1:45] I actually I had uh a couple things um I had one question.

[1:50] The The first one was about the uh complaint review. I think it's on page

[1:54] seven. Um

[2:00] Yes. Okay, and then um section E.

[2:05] So the

[2:08] uh we got rid of the um misdemeanor part, right? If someone

[2:13] submits um

[2:15] uh a number of claims that turn out to be false,

[2:20] uh it's no longer a misdemeanor. Um

[2:23] does that These claims, do they go before the administrative hearings

[2:26] bureau and can they assess a fine on someone who continues to

[2:30] um file false complaints on uh a landlord?

[2:36] Or the other way around?

[2:40] » So, the previous language regarding harassment, um in my time with the city,

[2:43] we've never once utilized that section. >> Okay.

[2:46] » Um it would it would be a criminal misdemeanor handled through district

[2:49] court. But again, we've never once used that

[2:52] section or enforced it. Um that's why we changed that to this complaint review

[2:56] process instead. Um

[2:59] we thought that the harassment language kind of deterred the tenants from making

[3:02] complaints, which we encourage them to do so when there are issues. So, that's

[3:06] why we we did the switch to the complaint review

[3:09] um wording instead. >> Thank you. No, that's really great.

[3:14] Um the other stuff I had was outside of the changes here, so I'll wait for

[3:19] people to talk about the changes here.

[3:25] » Right. Did you have anything else? >> my I was just going to say the one

[3:29] area that we left uh you left in my hands is

[3:33] just cuz we thought it needed a little bit more

[3:36] thought and for me, I couldn't think quick enough at the meeting was section

[3:41] 3A on page three.

[3:46] Um >> It's just semantics, right?

[3:49] » Yeah.

[3:55] » Oh, the within 30 days thing? >> Yeah.

[3:58] » Yeah.

[4:04] » I thought it made sense. The way it is now.

[4:07] » So, it looks this way. >> With that this part?

[4:10] » Yeah. >> With the red.

[4:11] » Oh, with the red. Yeah, that's new since our last meeting.

[4:13] » Yeah. No, I think it makes total sense.

[4:23] That on the shelf also be responsible for providing an inspection in 30 days.

[4:27] » The other ordinances that The other ordinances I looked at

[4:31] were had a much shorter timeline, but I think 30 days is still very reasonable.

[4:38] » More like 2 weeks or something? >> I saw 10 days. It was probably 10

[4:42] business days though, so yeah, 2 weeks. >> Okay.

[4:54] You all good with this? >> I'm good.

[4:57] » Anybody else have any Are we good?

[5:03] » Commissioner Brown is going to think it's something.

[5:05] » Not necessarily, Bob. Cuz I you know, we've gone over this.

[5:10] » We have a few times. >> Yeah.

[5:12] » Okay. >> Yeah, yeah, please.

[5:13] » So, I finally found some time and thankfully it was yesterday, so it's

[5:17] fresh on my mind about what other communities have done

[5:21] in terms of their rental ordinances and I found a couple things. The first was

[5:25] that our rental ordinances are actually

[5:28] pretty pretty good compared like a lot of cities that have redone theirs are

[5:32] getting to the point where ours work in some regards.

[5:35] But, I also saw a few things that other communities did that I

[5:38] thought it would be good to discuss. Not necessarily that we should pick all of

[5:42] these things up, but it would be be to get more information

[5:46] on them or to know if these were uh issues. Um so, the first one was um

[5:52] in tenants receiving information on their rights. I emailed this around to

[5:56] everyone, um but I found that uh the city of Ann Arbor and the city of

[6:02] What was it? East Lansing? Sorry, Ypsilanti. Both have an ordinance that

[6:06] requires um the landlord at the time of the rental

[6:10] agreement to give the tenant a copy of a booklet with their rights and

[6:15] information from the city about how to file a complaint um

[6:19] and and other information like that. Um the state law and the

[6:23] city ordinances, but you know, in a way that's much easier to read than than

[6:28] this. So, I could send around that. Um

[6:32] really the way the ordinance is written, it just says that the city shall provide

[6:35] the city clerk with booklets explaining the rights of tenants under the city and

[6:39] state law. The clerk should make those booklets available to landlords and

[6:42] their agents. They can pick those up at the clerk's office, and then they must

[6:46] give those to the tenant at the the time that they start a new lease, not just uh

[6:51] not at any point. Only the first time. So, I can send over

[6:54] both of these. The language is slightly different on uh on those, but I thought

[6:59] that would be really helpful um just for people to know what they're

[7:03] getting into and what their rights are. Um

[7:06] » On that, may I did see in the email Brian's plan of at least putting a link

[7:10] on the website of the landlord-tenant stuff at the

[7:14] state level. So, that's at least one step in that direction already. But

[7:18] yeah, I would I would definitely be curious to see kind of what Ipsi and uh

[7:22] Lansing and Ann Arbor did, kind of how that

[7:26] how that works out in the details. >> Yeah. Yeah, the the websites um I found

[7:32] that they had websites that did have all that information. It was extremely easy

[7:35] to navigate and get links to all that stuff, too. Um so, maybe it doesn't need

[7:39] to be be as well, but, you know,

[7:43] um

[7:45] That That was a good point on that. The other thing, um

[7:51] what I found was that some cities uh So, the state doesn't have a cap

[7:55] uh and most cities don't have a cap on application or pre-tenancy fees. So, I'm

[7:59] not necessarily saying that we should, either, but I was was wondering I wonder

[8:03] what the average um uh application fee is in the city.

[8:09] Um for a lot of people who are applying for a couple of rentals, and those fees

[8:14] kind of add up. And so, if it's somewhere between like 50 and 150

[8:18] dollars, which is what I remember when I got my apartment off of Grosbeck,

[8:23] um if you have to apply for a bunch of

[8:25] those, that really adds up quick. So, um and so, the city of Ann Arbor came up

[8:30] with an ordinance that uh essentially said landlords need to come up with

[8:35] really how much it costs to figure out, you know, do a background check, do a

[8:39] credit check, all those things. Um and if their application fee is above that,

[8:44] uh if they don't choose you for that rental, they need to give you the money

[8:47] back that they didn't use um to do that. Um I don't know if that's a good fit for

[8:52] us, but I thought it was an interesting concept.

[8:55] I would be curious to see from renters in our community if they're applying to

[9:00] multiple um places at once, um and if that's become a burden for them. I think

[9:06] in Ann Arbor, because it's a college town, people in the demand is so high,

[9:11] people are applying to a lot. And so, I I understand why they did it.

[9:15] But I thought that was a question I just didn't have an answer to. And those

[9:19] pre-tenancy fees were like, you know, holding fees, option fees,

[9:24] um not the security deposit, but just, you

[9:28] know, they come up with fees for everything. So, um once again, I'll send

[9:32] this around, but I found that to be really interesting.

[9:35] Um and then so, I also found a lot of

[9:39] information from Ann Arbor about discrimination.

[9:42] They have a very, very comprehensive discrimination

[9:47] or anti-discrimination ordinance that just governs how they run

[9:52] their city, but particularly toward housing, their discrimination ordinance

[9:57] says that no person shall discriminate in leasing, selling, or otherwise making

[10:01] available any housing facilities. Um now, of

[10:05] course, there was the state law on discrimination, which has been expanded

[10:08] a little bit, but they also said that no one should be denied housing based on

[10:13] actual or perceived age, arrest record, color, disability, educational level,

[10:18] ethnicity, familial status, family responsibilities, gender expression,

[10:23] gender identity, genetic information, height, HIV status, marital status,

[10:28] national origin, political beliefs, um source of income such as like vouchers,

[10:35] veteran status, being a victim of domestic abuse, stalking, or weight.

[10:40] Um and so, I don't know because um I don't know how many complaints

[10:44] we've had on this or if we've had any at all,

[10:48] um if this is something that would

[10:51] make a difference here, but it is something that um I thought was

[10:55] interesting and it went a little bit further than the state law.

[10:58] Um So, it was interesting.

[11:01] » Spencer, Spencer, which municipality did that come from?

[11:05] » This was Ann Arbor. >> Okay. That's what I thought you said.

[11:07] » So, yeah. Um

[11:11] Yeah, those were and then also, if you really want to do some research, um

[11:16] I was reading about right to renew ordinances. Once again, I don't know if

[11:19] they're that's a great fit for us, but it was just interesting to to see what

[11:23] other communities have put together to create more stability for people who

[11:27] want to remain in their community as renters.

[11:29] » All right. >> So, I'll email this to everyone so can

[11:33] get out and look at it, but thanks. >> Can we Have you ever had any complaints

[11:38] like that on in any of that? >> No, we don't really get complaints

[11:43] regarding fair housing issues. It's generally just the condition of the of

[11:46] the rental unit itself.

[11:50] » How common are complaints regarding the condition of

[11:54] the rental? >> Um I think they're not as common as what

[11:59] you probably believe and maybe that's partly because the tenants don't know

[12:02] that the program exists that we have a rental inspection program, but

[12:06] I would say maybe one a week, which really isn't that many

[12:10] in the grander scheme of things, but they it does happen.

[12:13] » Yeah, it's not it's not nothing, but it's not like a flood of them either.

[12:16] » Correct. And and we do find ourselves when there is a tenant complaint, it's

[12:20] often stemming because the tenant's being evicted for for whatever reason.

[12:24] Um and so there there's tenant versus landlord and we're trying to they try to

[12:28] get us in the middle sometimes, so we do our best to just follow our ordinance

[12:31] and the guidelines and stay out of that that type of situation.

[12:39] » All right. Anything else? Any Anything further on this one?

[12:45] » I do. I see a little note I had made. Just one little note, Rob.

[12:50] Under um um let's see what section this this is

[12:54] eight. Uh

[12:57] Under section eight inspections on page seven under E, complaint review.

[13:05] Um I kind of took

[13:10] issue with one particular example

[13:14] uh where it reads that last sentence under the complaint review, "Nothing in

[13:19] this article shall require the city to conduct an inspection based solely upon

[13:24] a complaint that lacks sufficient information or appears to be frivolous,

[13:28] repetitive, or made in bad faith. I thought repetitive really is not a

[13:33] negative. It just means it's a reoccurring problem sometimes and it

[13:37] hasn't been resolved. Of course, if it's frivolous, that's that goes without

[13:42] saying or made in bad faith, but I wanted to know if we would consider

[13:46] striking repetitive because sometimes you do have to keep asking for the same

[13:50] things. >> Yeah. Yeah, I would be fine with

[13:54] » I I mean I I agree with you in in some nature, but

[13:58] I've also had a person who who has

[14:03] given me the same complaint in a repetitive nature because they

[14:08] don't like the answer. >> Looking for another answer. Yeah, that's

[14:13] kind of a >> So, um that would be my It's almost to

[14:16] the point of harassment. You know, um like

[14:19] » Yeah, when you can't accept that you hit a brick brick wall, but I don't want

[14:24] people to think that once you raise an issue once in some of these housing

[14:29] situations that you can't raise it again.

[14:32] » Sure. Sure. Yeah. >> And I think even if you take out I think

[14:35] if you take out the word repetitive, if it is

[14:39] still having frivolous or made in bad faith or lacks sufficient information, I

[14:43] think

[14:46] those kinds of issues could still be covered in that way normally cuz if it's

[14:52] repetitive but not frivolous and not in bad faith,

[14:57] They almost beat It's hard to almost imagine that situation.

[15:01] » I If I really want to go forward with something, but then the person would

[15:04] know. >> But I think what you're speaking to,

[15:09] Mayor Laura, falls under bad faith. Right.

[15:14] So, that's really covered there cuz you said it border borders on harassment.

[15:18] » Yeah. I mean Yeah. Yeah. Hopefully it would be bad

[15:22] faith, I suppose. >> Yeah.

[15:26] Bad faith is a um broad

[15:29] » Pretty broad. >> subject. Yeah, subjective, too. So, I

[15:32] can view it as bad faith if you keep asking me the same question and I've

[15:36] responded. So, >> Okay.

[15:38] » I think it's pretty clear. >> All right.

[15:39] » It is. >> Yeah. Okay.

[15:41] I've just had a repetitive experience.

[15:47] So. >> This is My one thought on on uh

[15:51] Commissioner Kelle's uh suggestions,

[15:55] um I like, you know, there's no downside to putting in a non-discriminatory for

[16:00] whatever reasons the commission decides. So, I can see that one. The one where

[16:05] we're putting in an ordinance uh burden on the municipality to create

[16:09] a document explaining rights, I almost feel like that gets the landlord off the

[16:15] hook if they uh say we haven't kept up with what

[16:18] we're supposed to do. So, how the heck with it, they're not giving the rights.

[16:22] I I do like the idea of putting it on the website cuz it is it's more fluid

[16:26] and changes easier than uh putting in a written document. But, whatever you get,

[16:31] you know, whatever everyone thinks. This is my initial thoughts.

[16:34] » The cities that I found, um they all worked with um

[16:40] either I think one of them worked with Eastern Michigan University, the other

[16:44] one worked with a law firm, and they created a document that could be updated

[16:50] that um quite a bit. They also have uh like a renter's commission that looks at

[16:55] that. So, they have a reason to keep updating it. Um

[16:59] but, that is a a good point that how we do it could take a little bit of

[17:04] pressure off of the staff. >> But, I think also

[17:08] I remember somewhere in my background there are grants to to help get those

[17:13] tenant landlord booklets made and university help, like you said, but also

[17:19] to the point of having a printed one, I think the assumption is always that

[17:24] everyone can navigate a website, and a lot of

[17:29] seniors and people with disabilities don't go there. And if they have a paper

[17:34] booklet in hand, even if it becomes obsolete quicker to your point, Rob, I

[17:39] think it's just helpful to have both. >> Yeah, I mean, my only concern is how do

[17:44] you enforce? Because if we put it as an ordinance

[17:48] that a landlord must give that, how do you enforce that?

[17:52] » Mhm. >> Right.

[17:54] » Is it a mandate or a suggestion? >> Oh, no, it's a mandate.

[17:58] » Oh, you want us to do a mandate? Okay. >> I mean, everything

[18:01] I have to look at the rest of the the ordinance.

[18:04] » Yeah. >> From what I remember, from what I saw,

[18:06] it all pointed to any violation in that section was a misdemeanor, according to

[18:11] the So.

[18:13] It was all tied to that. But I don't I don't see a problem with

[18:18] this kind of information being available digitally, and them having just a paper

[18:23] copy of you know, here's how to get access this

[18:26] information, and some paper copies being available at city hall.

[18:31] » And the bottom line is we also have like I'm sorry, do some

[18:34] like we could do some press about once we get it that all on the website, and

[18:39] doing it some article in the Clementines, and doing some social media

[18:43] about it to, you know, just help promote it so that and point people in that

[18:47] direction, so it's not just >> There.

[18:49] » on the website, and if you're lucky you might find it, you know.

[18:54] The Clementines makes sense. >> Cuz all seniors usually do read the

[18:57] » Definitely does, yeah. >> But um, you know, if we

[19:02] there's good landlords and there's bad landlords, and the good landlords might

[19:05] try to keep up with it and make make sure it gets out there. The bad

[19:09] landlord, you hope to God they register. I mean

[19:14] there's several out there that >> Sure.

[19:16] » I know I tore down the houses that they weren't registered as

[19:21] » Right. >> rentals.

[19:22] » Sure. >> And the

[19:23] conditions were horrible. So, it's it's really hard to keep track

[19:28] of all this stuff and hold landlords accountable.

[19:32] Mhm. I forgot this. >> I believe it was the previous

[19:35] Clementines with the one that just came out. We do we did have an article about

[19:38] the rental registration inspection program. So, um but I think we can take

[19:42] a look at the website to see, you know, is the information where it is now kind

[19:46] of buried and can we make it more easily accessible um from somebody going on our

[19:51] website and maybe even include some more information about, you know, landlord

[19:55] tenant rights and things of that nature. >> Yeah. Actually, um I forgot to mention

[20:00] that. It probably just didn't make its way on here. They also

[20:04] um they the way they got the city to engage in

[20:09] sending it out and winding the cities was they added that the city would send

[20:13] a voter registration once they saw that, you know, it came through that there was

[20:17] a new renter. So, there was a reason for the city to interact with them and send

[20:21] them that information. So, that's how they solved that. So, once again,

[20:25] not that we should do that. Um although it would be cool. But,

[20:28] um you know, they they they found a way to

[20:31] make sure that information got to them. Um

[20:34] and then just one observation I found when I said that our our ordinance was

[20:40] ahead of a lot of others. For instance, us requiring that there's a responsible

[20:44] local agent if you have I think it was if you have over five properties.

[20:48] Uh I didn't see that anywhere else. And you know, I looked at four or five other

[20:53] cities. So, things like that I'm really happy to see

[20:57] that we have that and um we have worked to strengthen that a

[21:00] little bit. >> Absolutely.

[21:01] » Yeah. >> Well,

[21:04] » and Mel Commons is actually one of the very first communities in Southeast

[21:07] Michigan to have a rental registration inspection program. Our

[21:10] ordinance dates back to 1990. >> Awesome.

[21:14] » It's awesome. >> That's good. Yeah.

[21:16] » Yeah. >> For you.

[21:18] » Yeah, for me.

[21:21] » Very good. >> And then there you know, the enforcement

[21:24] of it varies over the years, but

[21:26] » Mhm. So.

[21:29] » All right. So, anybody else have anything to add?

[21:32] » This might go into This might go into some detail, but I was listening to

[21:38] your comment. How does it get that bad that a property is that is so bad

[21:45] um cuz we get a lot of those calls and we end up sending them a letter to Legal

[21:49] Aid, but it gets it's really a bad property to live in, but yet they were

[21:55] still paying rent. When do we do these inspections and are

[21:59] they for every landlord in the city?

[22:04] » Yes, every unit's required to be inspected every 2 years.

[22:07] » Okay. So, what happens when you get a bad

[22:11] property and it's it's not up to call. I mean, it's just

[22:15] really bad. Are they fined immediately? What happened?

[22:18] » Well, no. We go to the administrative hearings bureau when we do an inspection

[22:23] and corrections are not being made. >> Okay.

[22:25] » Yes. >> Okay.

[22:26] » And in that case as Commissioner Ford you were saying they weren't registered.

[22:32] They weren't registered landlords. They weren't being inspected because nobody

[22:35] even knew they were rentals and that is a challenge. So, we do if you have a

[22:40] neighbor who you believe is renting out your house their property or or you

[22:46] know, then we do encourage you to go to the report a problem link and and put a

[22:51] tip in there. I mean, it's You can be anonymous and um you know, report that

[22:57] and we can make sure it's registered. >> And we do our best at we track property

[23:01] sales. We'll track on principal residence exception, what people are

[23:04] applying for for the city to determine well, if it's 0% homestead, then it's

[23:08] probably a rental, and then we'll send out a you know, a request for rental

[23:11] registration and inspection. So, we are trying to track some of that behind the

[23:14] scenes. >> Awesome.

[23:17] The one problem that I kept going to the AHC hearings

[23:22] is when the landlord doesn't acknowledge and you know, you go

[23:28] month after month after month with no response or no

[23:32] um the the Italy diet comes to mind, you

[23:37] know, but that you got people living there, there's clear violations, and yet

[23:42] the landlord just goes just

[23:46] we can we can AHC him to the all day long and it that I

[23:52] » Yeah, we need we need to make it hurt them hurt them financially as much as

[23:55] possible for them to take action. Absolutely.

[24:01] » And you have my full support for that as well, especially when it's people who

[24:04] are not members of our community.

[24:08] All right. Anybody else? Cuz we are about 5 minutes before our next meeting.

[24:13] » So, just to summarize, I'm going to make the one comment that was suggested by

[24:18] Commissioner Brown, and then I'm going to wait to see

[24:22] whether we're incorporating anything from Commissioner Calhoun.

[24:26] Sounds good. >> Okay, got it.

[24:28] » But and I would encourage everyone to not I would say let's put a time

[24:32] time frame on you're going to send it out soon, right? And then

[24:37] yeah, if you send it out soon and then we give it a week and give comments back

[24:41] to Greg if you're interested in wanting some of those

[24:47] you know, incorporated in our rental agreement so we can get them to Rob and

[24:50] we can make that happen. All right.

[24:53] All right, thank you. And is there any other city business that we want to

[24:58] attend to in the next 4 minutes? >> You want to talk about the four minutes?

[25:05] » Okay.

[25:09] Okay, excellent.

[25:20] Thank you.

[25:30] Thank you.

[25:34] » So speaking of administrative hearings bureau, there's going to be a series of

[25:37] amendments coming down the pipeline, ordinance amendments, as you can see in

[25:40] this timeline I put together, but this is also that we can enforce

[25:45] certain sections of the zoning ordinance through our administrative hearings

[25:48] bureau. Uh the sections that I've identified here, they're related to

[25:51] blight and and property maintenance and things of that nature as opposed to more

[25:55] of a land use type issue issues, which should continue to be handled through

[25:58] uh district or circuit court. Um so I have one

[26:02] one way we're going to be amending the AHB and the blight ordinance so that we

[26:06] can do these enforcements, but then the planning commission also needs to

[26:09] initiate zoning ordinance amendments um at the same time or simultaneously,

[26:14] which will ultimately come to the the city commission for approval as well. So

[26:17] I just wanted to get this in front of you. So there's going to be pretty much

[26:20] an ordinance amendment every meeting for the next several.

[26:24] » Okay. >> Any questions that come, you know, shoot

[26:26] them over to Greg and we can get those answered. So

[26:29] » Awesome. So these are

[26:31] Where do we find them? Online? Is >> The The sections here that I've

[26:35] outlined, um you can find them. They're in the They're in the zoning ordinance.

[26:39] » But

[26:42] » But they're they're existing sections. >> to change?

[26:45] » Just the abilities that we can enforce these sections through the

[26:49] The ability to enforce them through the administrative hearings bureau as

[26:52] opposed to district court, etc. >> So, we're just adding 8.6 878893949928

[26:59] Is that it? Okay. Okay. Awesome.

[27:05] Awesome. Okay. Thank you for this. This is helpful. Yes, this is helpful.

[27:11] Okay. Now, does anyone else have any Got anything? Got anything?

[27:17] Uh all right. So, Commissioner Commissioner Conant, do you have any

[27:20] Commissioner comments for the work session? All right, hearing none, we

[27:24] will move on to I will entertain a motion to adjourn the work session.

[27:28] » Move to adjourn the work session. >> Second the motion.

[27:30] » All those in favor? >> Aye.

[27:32] » Any opposed? All right, the ayes have it.

Mount Clemens City Commission Work Session 9-8-26

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