[0:00] To the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it

[0:04] stands. One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice

[0:10] for all.

[0:14] » Okay. Before we get started, I'd like to announce that after our work session

[0:18] last week, council met in executive sk session to discuss ongoing litigation.

[0:23] I would also like to welcome members of Troop Scout 29 who are here with us

[0:28] tonight to observe their local government uh to get their citizenship

[0:31] in the community merit badge. Welcome. >> Okay, moving on to public to be heard.

[0:37] Does anyone have any uh public to be heard for items not listed on tonight's

[0:41] agenda?

[0:46] » Please enter the conference pin number. >> Sorry, we have someone joining us

[0:50] remotely.

[0:54] That pin is invalid for this conference. Please enter the conference pin number.

[1:05] » That pin is invalid for this conference. Please enter the conference pin.

[1:10] » Judy, can you go see if there's anything we can do to at least turn the volume

[1:14] down a little bit so we can keep going? Thank you.

[1:18] Um, so I see no public to be heard for items not on the agenda.

[1:23] Okay. Then before we move on to our presentations, I'd just like to ask, is

[1:27] there anyone here um on behalf of their certificate of appropriateness being

[1:32] heard tonight?

[1:36] Okay. Well, then I was going to move those forward if we had someone uh here

[1:40] present, but since we don't, we'll move on and we'll start with the EAC Bowman's

[1:44] Hill plant grant presentation.

[2:00] I think by way of introduction this is the reason for this presentation or are

[2:03] you going to be saying that some >> you can

[2:06] » you'll let me do it. Okay. Um, okay. The New Town received a grant from um

[2:12] Bowman's um Hill Wildflower uh um for planting native plants in three

[2:20] locations in the burrow, one being Patriots Park, one being the New Town

[2:26] Common Park, and the other being um along a drainage swale off of Chancellor

[2:31] Street. The two parks have signs in them that have educational information in

[2:36] them regarding native plants, but the swale does not have that and we are

[2:42] required to have an educational component to receive this grant and

[2:46] summer u bound from the uh EAC has kindly offered to make that presentation

[2:51] to us. >> All right. Well, good evening. My name

[2:56] is Summer and I'm a member of the environmental advisory council here in

[3:00] New Town Burough. Um, as Julia said, I'm here to, uh, present the educational

[3:05] component of the Bowman's Hill Wildflower Preserve Grant that was

[3:07] awarded to the burrow last fall. Uh, this presentation will focus on New

[3:13] Town Burrow's beloved storm water discharge system named Old Skunky. We

[3:18] will go over fun information about Old Skunky, Old Skunky's role in storm water

[3:23] management, and how native plants are helping to maintain New Town Burough's

[3:27] storm water systems. What we won't talk about is how Old Skunky got its name.

[3:32] I'll leave that for interpretation.

[3:37] Before we get into the thick of Old Skunky's history, here's a map of where

[3:41] Old Skunkkey flows through the burrow. It starts at the northeast corner of

[3:45] Washington Avenue and flows southwest towards South Street or South State

[3:50] Street and eventually discharges into the New Town Creek.

[3:57] Now, here's some history about ye old skunky.

[4:00] Old skunky was originally considered a tributary of the New Town Creek. A

[4:05] tributary is a stream or river that flows into a larger river or body of

[4:09] water. Now, a fun fact, New Town Creek is a tributary of the Namin Creek, which

[4:15] flows into the Delaware River drainage basin. The Delaware River Basin provides

[4:19] fresh drinking water to over 15 million people spanning four states and includes

[4:24] major cities like Philadelphia and New York City.

[4:28] Old Skunky is one of two surface water resources in the burrow and is

[4:31] considered an open storm water sewer system. So for reference, the EPA

[4:37] defines storm water as rainwater or melted snow that runs off streets,

[4:42] lawns, and other sites. When storm water is absorbed into soil, it is filtered

[4:47] and ultimately replenishes aquafers or flows into streams and rivers.

[4:52] Storm water runoff has also been identified as a number one cause of

[4:56] pollution to rivers and streams, which is the source of our drinking water. As

[5:01] New Town became more developed, Old Skunky's channel was diverted. There is

[5:06] a section of Old Skunky between Chancellor Street and Lincoln A where

[5:10] the stream was enclosed. The enclosure causes the intersection of Penn and

[5:14] Chancellor Streets to flood due to its incapacity to handle excess storm water.

[5:20] More development in the burrow meant more issues for our dear old Skunky. You

[5:24] might even say Skunky was having a stinky time.

[5:28] In the 1960s, when Washington Village was being developed, stormwater

[5:32] management was not typically a consideration in cons in construction

[5:36] planning. More development means more impervious pave surfaces. This was bad

[5:41] news for Old Skunky. Since there was no storm water management plan, poor old

[5:46] Skunky experienced more runoff, flooding, and erosion. The flooding was

[5:51] so severe that eventually the burrow had to replace the inlets and piping under

[5:54] South State Street.

[5:58] Excessive runoff from flooding and waste disposal may give you a hint to what

[6:01] earned Old Skunky its endearing name, but that's just a guess. After decades

[6:07] of what old skunky may have called the H2O no years, restoration projects were

[6:12] underway. For example, the retention basin at New Town Station alleviates

[6:18] some of Old Skunky's water load. The basin can carry approximately 600,000

[6:23] gallons of water. That's about 5 million pounds.

[6:28] Recent projects have studied New Town Burough storm water management and the

[6:31] importance of Old Skunky's role. These projects have helped with slope

[6:36] regrading, bank stabilization, and the installment of native plants.

[6:41] For a burrow with a population of about 2,300 people, Old Skunky is a vital

[6:46] system for storm water management. It is responsible for 23 of the burough storm

[6:51] water discharge. Despite its wary and sometimes stinky

[6:55] past, Old Skunky continues to flow.

[7:00] So, now that you know about Old Skunky, let's learn about Old Skunky's swale.

[7:06] Old Skunky's swale is a vegetative area where Old Skunky runs through Chancellor

[7:10] Street. The swale is about 300 ft long and 20 to 30 feet wide. A swale is

[7:16] simply defined as a lowlying space or depression between ridges. If you make a

[7:22] fist and look at the indented space between your knuckles, that is what a

[7:26] swell looks like. A swell's main purpose is to collect and manage storm water.

[7:32] Storm water can be thought of as water looking for a safe place to go. When it

[7:35] doesn't have when it doesn't have somewhere to go, it causes flooding.

[7:39] During its search, storm water picks up pollutants along the way. A swale

[7:44] provides storm water a place to flow into and to gradually seep into the

[7:48] ground. This is how a swale slows the storm water's infiltration rate.

[7:53] Infiltration rate is a measure of how fast water enters soil. As the storm

[7:58] water seeps into the ground, the soil also filters a storm water of its

[8:02] pollutants. So instead of the storm water flooding and polluting the New

[8:07] Town Creek, Old Skunky Swale offers storm water a chance to collect, slow

[8:11] down, get filter through the soil, and infiltrate our water table.

[8:20] Swells can also be a hospitable landscape for diverse ecosystems.

[8:24] A soil with native plants creates habitat and food for animals and

[8:27] pollinators, which in turn benefits our community as a whole. The generous grant

[8:33] from Bowman Hill Wildflower Preserve has given us the opportunity to add

[8:36] additional native plants to the swale's embankment areas.

[8:42] So, here's some pictures of the swale during the drought last summer. A cool

[8:46] thing about swailes is that they have an amazing ability to retain moisture,

[8:50] especially with the help of native plants and their root systems. You can

[8:54] see the vegetation around the soil is still pretty green despite how dry it

[8:57] was.

[9:02] Old skunky and it swale playing an essential row role in the burrow's MS4

[9:07] program. MS4 stands for municipal separate storm sewer system. You can try

[9:13] saying that 10 times fast. As defined by the PA,

[9:18] MS4s are conveyances or systems of conveyances, including roads with

[9:22] drainage systems, municipal streets, catch basins, curbs, gutters, ditches,

[9:29] man-made channels, or storm drains that are owned or operated by a public

[9:34] entity. They are designed or used for collecting or conveying storm water and

[9:39] are not a combined sewer or part of a publicly owned treatment works. MS4 is a

[9:44] required program/permit that is regulated by the DP, the Department of

[9:49] Environmental Protection. MS4 program's main goal is to regulate

[9:54] storm water, how it is discharged, and the associated pollutants.

[9:59] Every MS4 permittee establishes a storm water management program. The program

[10:04] addresses the impacts of stormwater runoff and solution plans.

[10:09] The S SWMP requires a focus on six minimum control measures. Some of these

[10:14] include construction site runoff control, pollution prevention,

[10:18] education, and outreach amongst others.

[10:26] Now, after all this talk about Old Skunky and storm water management, what

[10:30] is storm water management? How do native plants help with storm water management?

[10:35] Well, I'm so glad you all asked. By definition, storm water management is

[10:40] the use of practices to reduce, detain, slow down, or remove pollutants from

[10:46] surface water runoff and can be used to restore natural processes previously

[10:51] provided by nature. Old skunky and its swale have the ability to do all these

[10:55] things, especially with the help from native plants.

[11:00] So, what are native plants? Native plants are defined as a species that

[11:04] occurs naturally in a given location either because it evolved there or

[11:09] dispersed to that location without benefit of human activity.

[11:14] Native plants have a plethora of benefits for the environment, animals

[11:17] and humans. So next we will see how native plants contribute to storm water

[11:22] management, erosion control and biodiversity.

[11:29] Native plants have remarkable abilities to fix many man-made problems. To quote

[11:35] the infamous Io Wilson, "There can be no purpose more inspiring than to begin the

[11:40] age of restoration, reweaving the wondrous diversity of life that still

[11:45] surrounds us." End quote. As opposed to non-native or

[11:50] exotic exotic plants, native plants have an extensive root system that can hold

[11:55] on to soil. Their roots prevent erosion, increase storm water retention, and

[12:01] slows down the infiltration rate of groundwater while filtering out

[12:04] pollutants. Native plants provide necessities like

[12:07] food and habitat for local fauna and flora. This is also how native plants

[12:12] increase biodiversity. For example, echynasia, the common name

[12:17] is cone flower, feeds our pollinators and animals with its nectar and seeds.

[12:22] When the seasons change, burrowing bees will overwinter in the woody stems.

[12:27] Echanasia also has medicinal properties for humans as a remedy for colds and

[12:32] immune support. As an extra bonus, native plants minimize maintenance

[12:37] costs. They require less mowing, less watering, and no chemical or fertilizer

[12:42] applications. Sounds like a pretty good deal.

[12:47] So, this is a list of the plants that we planted uh around the soil at Old Skunky

[12:52] from Bowman's Hill. Here are some of the plants being

[12:57] installed. They don't look like much in these photos, but once they're

[13:02] established, they will fill out nicely. So to wrap up this presentation, I'd

[13:07] like to showcase a couple of the native plants we received from Bowman Hill

[13:10] Wildflower Preserve. This one's called Clethral on a also

[13:15] known as summer sweet or sweet pepper bush. It has fragrant and very

[13:19] attractive flowers. Excellent food source for pollinators and it's also

[13:23] deer resistant. It tolerates wet landscapes and does well in sandy soils.

[13:29] In fact, it's often used for erosion control along bodies of water. The next

[13:33] time you go down the shore, notice how erosion has affected the shoreline. You

[13:38] might notice that these areas with dunes and plants are much more stable than

[13:42] those without. So for those of you with shore houses and experiencing the

[13:46] effects of erosion, this native is a great plant to keep in mind.

[13:52] This is picntheum, also known as mountain mint. Oh, the picture didn't

[13:57] show up. Well, it's not an aggressive spreader like other mints you might find

[14:02] at a garden center. It's fragrant and can act as a natural repellent for

[14:05] mosquitoes and ticks. It's also deer and rabbit resistant. It enjoys moist areas,

[14:10] so it's a great plant choice for old skunky. Is also fairly drought tolerant.

[14:16] It's a wonderful food source for pollinators. If you plant this, your

[14:20] yard will also be humming with honeybees, hummingbirds, and

[14:23] butterflies. The leaves have culinary uses as a seasoning or a tea to treat

[14:28] colds, help with anxiety, insomnia, tummy aches, and so many other ailments.

[14:34] Because it's a native plant, it doesn't require fertilizer or pesticides, so it

[14:39] also reduces landscaping costs and will save you money.

[14:45] There's the picture. There we are. Uh on behalf of the New Town Bureau and

[14:50] the EAC, I'd like to extend a ginormous thank you to Bowman's Hill Wildflower

[14:55] Preserve for awarding us this grant uh making our community a more

[14:59] environmentally sound and wonderful place to live. I thank you all for

[15:03] listening and being here today. I hope you enjoyed this presentation and maybe

[15:07] learned something. If you're feeling inspired, reach out to your local

[15:11] environmental advisory council or township about how you can get involved

[15:15] in projects that make a difference. Because without a thriving environment,

[15:19] where would we be? Uh, you can stay tuned to New Town Burrow's new

[15:23] newsletters and the environmental advisory council's new web page for more

[15:27] updates about upcoming projects. And uh, I thank you.

[15:55] are currently the only person in this conference.

[16:07] So now we'll move on to our next presentation which is about the Liberty

[16:11] Center development proposal. Are you all using the technology as

[16:16] well? Okay, great. >> I'm not, but we are.

[16:19] » Okay. [laughter] >> Uh, I'm Ed Murphy. Um, I'm here tonight

[16:24] with Jim Worthington and a host of other project consultants to

[16:30] uh discuss about the Liberty Development proposal.

[16:49] Please continue. Sorry. >> Okay. Um, I'm here tonight with Jim

[16:55] Worththington and uh multiple of the project consultants to discuss a project

[17:00] that has probably been one of the most discussed publicly um in the history of

[17:07] the burrow. It used to be known for many years as the steeple view project that

[17:13] went on seemingly for almost a generation and resulted in various

[17:16] levels of approval. Uh Jim Worthington purchased the

[17:22] property almost 14 months ago in uh early 2025

[17:28] and uh we had our first informal workshop session with um a handful of

[17:36] burough administration staff and several council people last mid July when we

[17:43] made everyone aware of Jim's acquisition and also some tenative plans he had for

[17:49] how he would uh look to modify the previously approved plan. Uh we spent

[17:55] the balance of the summer and early fall um doing um due diligence on the plan

[18:03] various uh reached out to some u local stakeholders to get their sense of it.

[18:10] And then we met for the first time in early November last year with your

[18:15] planning commission and we presented at that time a a sketch plan. Uh we did

[18:21] have the benefit of a review uh from Michelle Fountain's office when

[18:27] we did have that first meeting. And much like the first staff meeting in mid July

[18:32] where we got a fair amount of feedback of issues to be uh thinking about as we

[18:37] embarked on any revision to the plan. We had that same kind of feedback from your

[18:43] planning commission last November 3rd and we've since that meeting have

[18:48] followed up again with um different um groups stakeholders if you will within

[18:56] the burrow. Uh Jim's had a number of listening sessions which I'm sure you're

[19:00] familiar with because some of you attended those and uh more recently we

[19:06] made u a more formal submission of the revised sketch plan and a companion

[19:14] uh overlay ordinance that we call the green rate greenway redevelopment

[19:19] ordinance or the grow ordinance. that would be a vehicle that would allow the

[19:24] plan that we're going to present to you tonight if everybody thinks it makes

[19:28] sense uh to move forward. So, uh, this opportunity tonight is to allow Jim

[19:34] briefly and then the project architects and then, um, the project planner to

[19:42] talk about the design elements that we've incorporated into the plans since

[19:46] some of you saw it last July and hopefully the uh, benefit of that we see

[19:52] in considering this amendment as opposed to relying on the prior most recent

[19:57] amended final approval for the steeple view project. So, uh, with that as

[20:02] background, Jim wants to make only a very brief commentary and then we'll

[20:07] turn it over to the project architects who will have a more visual presentation

[20:11] of uh, the work product we've developed since last July.

[20:27] My name is Jim Worthington and thanks [clears throat] for having us tonight. I

[20:30] just want to give you a little brief history. Uh very brief. Um two years uh

[20:36] prior to purchasing the uh project from Allan Smith, who I admire dearly. I

[20:40] think he's done tremendous things for the burrow and the township. uh myself

[20:45] and a friend of mine spent uh virtually dozens of meetings with Allen

[20:51] trying to get familiar with the project and I was very excited about it in terms

[20:55] of because he's he's a visionary and he does really good things. Um during that

[20:59] two-year project, we also were talking to different stakeholders, residents

[21:04] around the site, which was then Steeple View, uh business owners on State Street

[21:10] and surrounding areas. And we found out that the what Allen's vision was did not

[21:16] coincide with what the folks around there thought. And I came in with very

[21:22] excited about, hey, I'm going to buy this plane. I'm going to just do it. But

[21:26] that wasn't the feeling. and sense we got from the people there, they were

[21:30] concerned about a number of things uh that that that I wasn't aware of. And

[21:35] then after I purchased it in January of uh of that year, uh we dug further into

[21:42] it with my experts and people that were working on my project to find out that

[21:47] all the fears of the people that were um not thrilled with the the plan and were

[21:53] looking for something different came true. So, for instance, the plan that

[21:58] Allen had uh versus the plan we have had 1,700 more cars per week per week than

[22:07] our plan that we developed, which is 85,000 cars more a year. That was a

[22:11] problem. People were concerned about traffic. That's what we were repeatedly

[22:15] told. People were concerned about off-site parking that was in Allen's

[22:19] plan down at the stocking works saying, you know, this doesn't make sense

[22:24] because people aren't going to go down there and park. We realized that was

[22:28] true, too. So, we came up with a plan that basically park right on site.

[22:34] People were concerned about the fact that there was going to be limited

[22:38] public parking. We provided much more public parking in our new plan. Um there

[22:45] was a a plaza space that was uh very much needed and wanted. It was something

[22:51] that the burrow I think insisted upon. We saw that uh plaza space which was

[22:58] nice but it was 5,000 square feet. We said hey there's room to do much better.

[23:03] We made it 15,000 square feet. We tripled the size of it. Every place we

[23:10] looked at where we could improve Allen's plan. We did. Um, and the biggest thing

[23:16] was the business community was definitely afraid of more competition.

[23:20] They didn't want another restaurant. They wanted no more coffee shops. They

[23:24] said it's hard enough to to now business-wise to compete. And here we

[23:28] are going to bring in more people, which is going to cause more traffic and

[23:32] decimate the people there. What they wanted was people that lived in the

[23:37] community. So, what I originally thought I was going to do, which would have been

[23:41] really easy, we scrapped because it wasn't right for the community. And I've

[23:47] done business in New Town now in two years, 50 years. Some of you have been

[23:52] members of my club. And we try to do things that are exemplary. And we try to

[23:56] do things that give back to the community. People may not like some of

[24:00] the things I do outside of my business, but the fact of the matter, I've always

[24:03] have thought that what I could do best for our community, whether it's raising

[24:08] money for charities or uh supporting different businesses or whatever the

[24:13] case may be. Um, so the plan we're going to present tonight, I think you'll get

[24:18] the facts from our our experts here, is a far better plan than Allen. And that

[24:23] doesn't mean that Allen didn't have a great vision. He did. But at the time he

[24:26] came up with that many many years ago, New Town has burrow has changed quite

[24:32] quite a bit. And I think this plan on its merits uh really really adds to the

[24:38] community. Really I think it's it's a wonderful community. I you may or may

[24:43] not have heard I've most recently um uh I will be buying the Burden Hand

[24:48] Building uh on April 15th. I have two or three other uh sites right on State

[24:53] Street that I own. I have a vested interest in making sure we do a plan

[24:58] that really really contributes to the community. So, that's all I really

[25:02] wanted to tell you. I'm I'm honored to be able to stand here and say I have an

[25:07] opportunity, I think, to do something that's a really gamecher for the burrow

[25:11] and I think the surrounding community. And I'm very proud and blessed to say I

[25:16] will do everything I can to make that a huge success. And I think um we do have

[25:21] information that we and I do want to tell you we did we did go around and uh

[25:26] one of my employees, Linda Mitchell, who will be celebrating our 45th uh work

[25:31] anniversary this May, uh basically went on foot, which is pretty good for

[25:35] somebody 75 years old, and went door to door every every surrounding business,

[25:42] every resident she could with unbiased asking, "How do you feel about this

[25:48] project?" not asking them for their support, just playing it right down the

[25:51] middle. And I think if we get a chance to show you the results of that, it was

[25:55] pretty overwhelming that people uh people really want to see this happen.

[26:00] So anyway, thank you very much for listening to me and I appreciate it.

[26:06] So, what you're going to see next is um a visual

[26:12] uh and a descriptive presentation from David Mow and Michael Lawson. Uh both uh

[26:19] members of Minnow and Wasco, which is a regional architectural firm

[26:24] headquartered in Lambertville. Uh Dave and Michael have been working with us

[26:29] from the get-go since um Jim's acquisition of the property last year

[26:34] and um I think uh hopefully you'll feel as we do that the changes that um they

[26:43] will visually review with you and Jim's overview description of that are

[26:49] I think provide real municipal benefits to um the burrow and to a greater area

[26:55] outside the burrow when you see the changes that hopefully uh you'll think

[27:00] are worthy of incorporating into any new revised plan. So with that as

[27:04] background, I'll turn it over to David and Mike.

[27:10] » Good evening. I'm David Mow um with Minnow and Wasco Architects and

[27:14] Planners. And I have a big smile on my face tonight. I'm a New Town burrow

[27:19] resident and this plan I think is going to be uh what New Town needs in this

[27:26] location. We've had an eyesore in this location for years and years and we'd

[27:32] like that to end and do something beyond just be a development project uh for a

[27:38] developer to make money. This is something very special that uh the

[27:42] community needs and will benefit from. Uh Do you advance? Go ahead.

[27:50] So, uh, this is our development team, Jim and his partner Bob Weller, myself,

[27:57] Michael Lawson, Lynn Yahaya, who's a landscape architect,

[28:02] our civil engineer, Ron Monree, Ed who you know, Jeff Manard who works with

[28:08] Jim, and John Kennedy who's a who's a planner.

[28:14] Why don't you move on? I think Jim has covered some of these main points. So,

[28:19] I'm going to reiterate a little bit of what Jim said, not much, but um we have

[28:25] created a 14 to 15,000 square foot uh town square on the property. And this

[28:32] is a place that can be activated by New Town Burrow to do various things whether

[28:38] it's a Christmas tree lighting or bull market carts. Uh any kind of festival

[28:44] that we want to have. It can have entertainment. Uh we have a a covered

[28:49] pavilion where groups can perform and it's a space that New Town really

[28:54] doesn't have and it does happen to be right in the center of town.

[28:58] We've enhanced the greenway trail. It was always contemplated

[29:03] uh in the plan uh that was approved prior to this, but we've made some very

[29:09] special changes to it and it's going to be a great walkway for the community.

[29:14] It's open to the public. It's not a private amenity all along New Town Creek

[29:19] in this section of the property. the um

[29:24] public parking spaces. We've got 55 u public parking spaces.

[29:32] We have 20 parking spaces set aside for phase one residential. The building uh

[29:38] the residents who live over the liquor store off of State Street are just

[29:43] parking with everyone else in that beat up parking lot. So we've got reserved

[29:48] now 20 specific spaces for those residents.

[29:52] We've got 20 spaces for the existing retailers, the liquor store and our

[29:58] favorite croissant store. So we've provided the parking that we

[30:03] need not only for the commercial and for public, but we've also got the required

[30:09] number of parking spaces for our residents.

[30:13] Um, one of the things you'll see about our parking that's quite different from

[30:17] the prior approved plan by Alan Smith is that our parking u, much of it for the

[30:24] residential portion is underneath the buildings and out of sight. And this is

[30:29] something that makes it a higher quality project all around. It's a elegant way

[30:34] to live. You can park under your building and take an elevator up uh, and

[30:39] avoid the inclement weather when you're bringing groceries in. And so it's a

[30:42] very very nice way to live. We've uh the project now includes 125

[30:49] rental uh apartments and we expect our renters here to be in two basic groups.

[30:56] We and we see this all over in downtown redevelopment. The first group would be

[31:02] young uh professional type people who are just starting out and running an

[31:07] apartment uh employed in the area. And the second group which we see in

[31:14] particularly important in the New Town project is an empty neester market. Um

[31:21] we have many people who have lived in New Town and the surrounding communities

[31:25] for a long time who may be at a point where they're selling their home and

[31:30] want to keep a a residence in New Town. Maybe they're buying a home in Florida

[31:35] or the Carolas, but they want to keep a residence here because this is where

[31:40] their relationships are. This is where their families are. This is where they

[31:43] worship. This is their home, and they want to stay here in a in a very, very

[31:49] nice building. So, that's that's kind of who we seek coming to this project.

[31:57] The other thing that Jim mentioned was that we have 85,000 fewer

[32:02] annual car trips to this project than the prior approval.

[32:08] And a lot of that is based on the fact that we have removed the retail

[32:12] component that was in the prior approved plan. And as Jim mentioned, the retail

[32:18] that was contemplated here was competitive with our good merchants on

[32:23] State Street and other locations within town on Sycamore.

[32:27] And uh there was really not the proper parking to support it. And it created

[32:33] this uh influx of parking even in the evening which would have been in a

[32:39] little bit of a competition with the residents and a nuisance for the

[32:43] residents to have cars coming in throughout the evening for retail uses.

[32:49] So we think that this is a benefit to reduce the amount of traffic that's

[32:53] coming in and out of this site. Um the architecture that we're going to

[32:59] be presenting tonight is a high quality architecture that really works well with

[33:04] the phase one architecture. We did meet with Harb and we got comments from them

[33:09] that they wanted to see an interpretation of

[33:14] uh what was done in phase one and the idea there I think is that it's a

[33:19] it's a site that did hold industrial uses back in the day. We actually

[33:24] consulted with Jeff Marshall who helped us figure out what existed on this site

[33:30] way back in the day. And as you may know, larger businesses tended to locate

[33:36] in two places historically. One was along rail railroad tracks and the other

[33:41] was along streams or waterways. And on this site in particular, there was a

[33:47] very large millwork company that was located right there along the New Town

[33:51] Creek. There was also a a huge complex of green houses in that location. So,

[33:58] architecturally, you know, we can play off of that idea of older industrial

[34:02] buildings that have been renovated into newer residences. And that's what we've

[34:06] done. And I'll let Michael, my partner, u describe that in a little bit more

[34:11] detail. Next slide. Uh this is just an area that I think

[34:18] points out the uh supporters and solicitation of people to comment on

[34:26] this on this project. This is where we handed out um uh you know leaflets and

[34:32] gave information. Next,

[34:37] so this slide is a portion of the approved Allen Smith slide. This is the

[34:42] northern end. Center Avenue is on the right hand side of the sheet. And this

[34:49] was the approved plan. And he had a great deal of retail on this end of the

[34:55] site in buildings two and three. And the small plaza area that he had next to the

[35:01] creek was located right there adjacent to Center Street.

[35:06] But he has very very little parking there for that retail. Um and as you uh

[35:14] the park the public parking which is sort of in the center of the site was

[35:19] too far away for the state street merchants uh to be effective for them.

[35:25] Next slide. This is more of the um southern end of

[35:31] the site where he had uh small residential buildings perpendicular to

[35:36] the creek sort of lined up. um no parking under the building, all surface

[35:42] parking. And in fact, he didn't make the parking work on site. I think 50 spaces

[35:48] to support this project where at the stocking works, which I think was a

[35:53] difficult thing for the boards here to approve, even though they did, but I

[35:58] don't think personally I don't think it worked. People really weren't going to

[36:01] walk that far to either uh park for the residents or park for retail.

[36:08] Also, this uh big circle in the center of the site ate up a lot of land and

[36:13] really didn't do much u for the site at all. So, that's one thing that we we saw

[36:19] as a as a big problem right from the get-go. Next,

[36:25] so here is a a portion of or this is our site plan. Uh we have three residential

[36:33] buildings. one, two, one on the left, two in the middle, three on the right.

[36:38] And these buildings have 43 units in the first building, 49 in the second, and 33

[36:46] in the third. And as you look on the right hand

[36:50] portion of the plan, we've got a greatly enlarged town park and pavilion

[36:56] building. and you'll see renderings of what this looks like, but we've taken

[37:00] the entry that's uh sort of behind Starbucks and the hardware store and

[37:05] we've made that a a special paving street as you come in that ties right

[37:10] into the plaza itself. And on days when you'd be having

[37:15] functions there, music or performance or whatever, we can close off that portion

[37:22] of the street and have it be an even larger uh plaza that would include the

[37:28] street area itself. So that that's something that I've seen done

[37:33] successfully in in several towns uh in downtown areas.

[37:38] um our parking and I'll I'll let Michael go through it but much of it is

[37:43] underneath the building. We have 241 residential spaces for 125 units and we

[37:51] have 133 of those as garage spaces. So there are more than one to one spaces uh

[37:58] garage spaces for the residents. And I'm going to let Michael take over

[38:04] and show you some beautiful architecture. I must say that our client

[38:08] Jim has said, "I want to make this a legacy project." Um, and he said that in

[38:16] relation to the quality of all the materials to be used in this project and

[38:22] the design of the buildings. He wants it to be something that will look good on

[38:27] all four sides. It's not going to have a beautiful front and vinyl siding on the

[38:31] back. It's going to be a wonderful four-sided project. And um I'll let

[38:38] Michael describe the architecture. Thank you.

[38:41] » Thank you, Dave. >> Perfect.

[38:45] » Thank you so much. As Dave alluded to, my name is Michael Loss. I'm a partner

[38:49] uh with Dave at Mano and Wasco and we specialize in these kinds of

[38:52] developments in downtown areas where we try to rehabilitate areas that are not

[38:59] succeeding. Um, and I think Dave really illustrated how the vision now for

[39:04] Liberty Center as well as ownership um, really looked and saw what different

[39:09] components needed to be enhanced. Dave alluded to the fact that we have this

[39:14] beautiful now retail or uh, events plaza located here with the pavilion. We also

[39:20] have located the public parking closest to the Starbucks and closest to State

[39:25] Street so that those people that are using that public parking can have an

[39:30] easy and accessible uh walk back up to where all the businesses are located. As

[39:36] we come down into the site, we've really taken a uh view that we have to minimize

[39:43] the the size of the buildings through shaping them and creating view

[39:48] corridors. And one of the things that we did here was you can see on each of

[39:53] these corridors heading down towards uh the inner side of the site, that is

[39:58] where we've located our main entry, our architectural feature. You can also see

[40:03] that we've done that here in this location. We've in we've included even a

[40:08] park uh next to this area for green space. And you can see this kind of

[40:13] working through the whole site plan. There are different nodes that occur as

[40:18] you walk through and you experience the site. And that's really what we wanted

[40:22] to do. That's how it integrates into the burrow and the downtown here uh in New

[40:28] Town.

[40:32] Yes. So, as you look at at the at the plan that you have here, this is a

[40:37] ground floor plan. The gray areas are that parking those parking uh spaces

[40:43] that are on the ground floor. They are the garage parking spaces. They're these

[40:46] light gray areas here and here. This building actually has them in a basement

[40:52] level underneath it. So, there's even parking underneath this this uh building

[40:57] here in building one. So each of these buildings has that level of parking. The

[41:02] pink areas is where we have those nodes and that's where we have that lobby

[41:08] space and amenity space. That's going to include a few different things and I

[41:12] have uh some imagery of that as we get further along. But in there you'll have

[41:17] an elegant lobby space. You'll have a club room, fitness areas, co-working

[41:22] spaces, all the amenities that come and are expected now in these kinds of

[41:27] communities throughout the Northeast. And then um as you see these plans as we

[41:32] progress further, you'll see that the yellow components are the residential

[41:36] units, how they stack in the building and how they step back in different

[41:40] locations as we move up the the plan here.

[41:47] some of the areas that we're looking to enhance. Um, and these are some theme

[41:51] imagery of the public spaces that we're we're hoping to create, the public

[41:55] plazas, the entertainment areas. Um, areas that you can have a Christmas tree

[42:01] lighting or manora lighting or an event for your holidays. Um, as well as like

[42:06] Dave mentioned, you could have uh areas for food trucks and festivals and those

[42:12] kinds of things, but also for leisure. the the walkway along the creek is an

[42:17] very important piece of this development, but also of the the entire

[42:22] downtown New Town Burough. And that really allows us to connect both the

[42:26] residential to that natural perspective that you see into the creek um but also

[42:32] to the downtown and the walkability of downtown.

[42:36] These are some of the images that I just alluded to for the interior amenities.

[42:40] These are this is the level of amenity that is expected at these kinds of of

[42:45] projects and and these types of new residences. So you can see the the the

[42:50] private dining areas for the residents of the community, the club rooms, the

[42:54] fitness areas, as well as the level of design that's brought into each of the

[42:58] residential units. As Dave said, the the people that we expect to be living here

[43:04] and renting here are people that have a high quality of living. They want to see

[43:08] these kinds of amenities and they want to see wood floors. They want to see a

[43:13] beautiful kitchen. Those are the things that make this community that much

[43:17] special for uh New Town Burough. As we go up to the next floor plan, this

[43:24] is actually a typical floor plan. And this this shows that on the upper floors

[43:29] of the building, you have all residential units. This is where we have

[43:33] a mix of one uh bedrooms, two bedrooms, and three-bedroom units that really

[43:38] enhance and create different uh size of units for the different income levels,

[43:45] but also for what people are looking for. We think that we have the correct

[43:49] mix uh that's warranted for this uh downtown environment. And as Dave

[43:54] alluded to, we do have the correct amount of parking to park these uh uh

[43:59] these residences both in the surface parking as well as the garage parking

[44:02] underneath the buildings. This is then the roof plan. And you can

[44:07] see that on the roof plan, this is where we hide our mechanical units, but also

[44:12] we have an amenity up here as well. And on buildings two and three in this

[44:17] location and this location, we're providing for rooftop amenity decks.

[44:22] This was really important for Jim and his and his development team that we

[44:26] created an an area that you could go up to the top of the building and you could

[44:31] look over the creek, look over the natural environment, as well as look

[44:34] over downtown uh the downtown area. In these areas, you'll see that you have

[44:40] fire pits, you have areas for lounging, you have areas to uh allow you to

[44:46] sunbathe in in certain areas, um as well as barbecue grills and areas uh so that

[44:51] you can actually cook um and bring those things back down to your

[44:55] » Wi-Fi >> as well as work outside and Wi-Fi, which

[44:58] is very important nowadays in in our technology communities.

[45:03] So that leads us into the vision of what this is going to look like. And I bring

[45:10] up this is um the an image looking from our our central street um at building 2

[45:17] at the entry to building 2 where the park is um that we've created at the

[45:21] center of the site. And as Dave had said, we met with Harb and we worked

[45:26] with them um through a pallet of materials that includes an elegant gray

[45:31] brick um as well as traditional brick detailing um with modern accents. And

[45:36] you can see those modern accents at the center uh entry area where we have uh a

[45:42] a larger glazing area on that on the building that denotes where we believe

[45:48] the node is on the building. the important piece where people are drawn

[45:52] to, but it also has a contextual element. Even on this building, as you

[45:57] as you came in, it has a large glass entryway. On several other buildings

[46:04] throughout the burrow, it has this vernacular. We wanted to use that as

[46:08] well here to bring in some context in terms of how buildings have been

[46:12] rehabilitated in the burrow. You can also see that on um several of the

[46:17] different architectural elements, we've created a residential feel. And you can

[46:21] see that in the gable pitched roofs that we're creating, the bay windows that we

[46:26] have on the on the building, the balconies that we've incorporated into

[46:30] the language of the ins and outs, as well as the [clears throat]

[46:36] the divided lights in each of the windows on the lower portion of the

[46:41] building. This breaks down the scale of the building and allows for a more

[46:45] residential typology that we think merges well uh with the the aesthetic

[46:50] that we were trying to create on site. [clears throat]

[46:55] The next image just takes you slightly around is looking at the same building

[46:59] at a different perspective here. Um you can see how we're pushing in the

[47:04] building in different locations. That's where we have several of our balconies

[47:08] as well as our um stepbacks in the building. On the top floor of the

[47:13] building for a lot of the proportion of it, we do have a pretty considerable

[47:17] step back. A step back is a push back of the building on the top floor. This

[47:22] allows for the eye to be stopped at that one story below where we have that

[47:27] cornis line and that glass railing as you walk past it. It's another way that

[47:32] we're breaking down the scale of those buildings.

[47:37] This is now a view of the same building on the walkway side. And here you can

[47:42] see that on the one side we have the creek, we have the walkway, and then we

[47:46] have our parking on the ground floor and three stories of residential above.

[47:51] We've changed the materials as we get higher in the building to a panel

[47:55] material rather than a masonry material. It allows for a softness as we go up the

[48:00] building, but also allows for us to step back the building here above the

[48:04] parking. That allows for larger private terraces for those first floor of

[48:08] residential units.

[48:12] This is an image looking at the entry of building one. This is that L-shaped

[48:16] building that we looked at on the plan. You can see here we have a slightly

[48:20] different um style. We have the two gable roofs on either side. We've really

[48:26] minimized the height in this location, bringing those uh top gables down into

[48:31] that top floor. Um, as well as creating that entry node that we talked about um

[48:37] as well throughout the presentation. Here on this side of the building, we

[48:41] have a much larger at uh right above the parking podium uh amenity area that can

[48:47] be used for public or private events as well as barbecue grills, lounge areas

[48:53] for the residents of the community. >> And you can see the entry of the parking

[48:58] going down underneath the building using the grading of the site to our benefit.

[49:03] That's another thing that I did want to bring up. As you can see, we're sitting

[49:07] at the lowest point of the site in a lot of these areas. South State Street is

[49:12] actually almost a story higher um at that level. So, the buildings, even

[49:17] though they are four stories tall, do sit much lower in the site. As you as

[49:23] you kind of know if you've ever been to the liquor store, which I'm sure you all

[49:26] have, that liquor store actually sits a story lower for its entry. from South

[49:31] State Street, you go down the hill and you enter in on the lower level. That

[49:35] allows for these buildings to minimize the height and we think that it's still

[49:39] very much appropriate uh to then add this height in this location. As Dave

[49:45] said, historically this site has had larger buildings on it, more

[49:49] manufacturing buildings, those kinds of things. This is now what makes sense for

[49:54] downtown areas. Manufacturing doesn't make sense. residential walking wallets,

[49:59] people who are going to activate your downtown. Really makes a lot of sense

[50:04] here. This is uh as we now progress towards

[50:09] the public plaza. This is building three. This is a a smaller building. You

[50:14] can see the same kind of architectural details that we've added to the

[50:18] building. You might say, "Okay, so it looks a little bit the same from

[50:22] building to building." That was actually a comment from Harb. They wanted a a

[50:27] harmonious and a similar contextual feeling on each of the different

[50:33] buildings. Originally, we had proposed several different brick varieties, some

[50:37] different materials. The guidance that we received back from them is that they

[50:41] wanted it to be more streamlined. We heard that and we prepared a

[50:45] presentation and designed the buildings appropriately in that manner.

[50:50] This is now a view as we progress closer to that public plaza on the walkway

[50:56] side. On this side, we actually are able to put our fitness center and some of

[51:01] our amenities activating that walkway uh at that level here. So, we have large uh

[51:07] open windows um areas that you can see the activity on the inside as you're

[51:11] walking by on the walkway.

[51:16] And you can see in the back right there that we have the First National Bank.

[51:20] We've imported that into our models. And you can see that in relationship to the

[51:25] Heights, it is very similar. Um, and that's right across the street from our

[51:30] public plaza as well as, you know, this building fronts on that public plaza as

[51:35] well. So now this is now turned around and and this is an image from that that

[51:41] that bank and from Center Street. And you can see the the road that we've

[51:46] created here that really uses the same materiality. We use ballards and and

[51:52] different color treatments to to denote where the driving area is and where the

[51:57] pedestrian realm is. But during festival times, during public events, you can

[52:02] close that street down and it becomes an extension of that. That's how you get an

[52:06] even larger area for those kinds of events. on a on a weekend, you could

[52:11] have um a line of uh food trucks sitting there activating that public plaza,

[52:16] which a lot of downtowns have. You can also see that we've added a pavilion

[52:21] located at the end. We think that this is a great opportunity uh for music, for

[52:27] sound to really enthral and activate not only Liberty Center, but the whole

[52:34] downtown area with that kind of activity.

[52:38] And then you can also see the walkway on the right. This actually creates that

[52:42] conclusion in some ways or that center area that activates that walkway. It

[52:48] allows for an area that somebody could walk to the public plaza and then walk

[52:52] back. >> I think this is phase one.

[52:55] » And then you can also see phase one located there um in the rendering which

[52:59] is where the liquor store and uh and the bakery is. So you can see that does sit

[53:04] higher on the site because it is one story higher along South State Street

[53:09] and you can see the heights of that are relative to the heights that we have

[53:13] proposed for for our new buildings in the rear of the site.

[53:18] So that concludes our presentation for tonight. It gives you a great overview

[53:23] of what we are proposing, the vision that we are proposing here. And we

[53:28] really are very excited to bring this to an area of your downtown that needs a

[53:34] little inspiration. And we believe that this is the correct inspiration for the

[53:38] right time and the architecture that that follows. So we really welcome you

[53:43] to downtown living in New Town Burough and we think that this vision is that.

[53:46] Thank you so much.

[53:51] » [applause]

[53:54] » Um the next and uh final presenter would be uh our planner, John Kennedy. Uh John

[54:02] is a longtime municipal planner. Uh he represents many municipalities in Bucks

[54:09] and Montgomery counties and um he and I have collaborated on multiple projects

[54:15] on the private side as well. And I thought this particular assignment was

[54:22] tailor made for John because um he does a lot of work with other uh developing

[54:28] or redeveloping burrows such as Hatboro. Um we're also working on another project

[54:34] in in Doylestown. And uh the task that John had was to try to develop a

[54:41] framework for which um a municipality could consider a project that uh David

[54:46] and Mike just described uh and recognizing the inherent limitations of

[54:51] the split zoning that exists today on the site. part of the site. It's, as we

[54:56] all know, it's almost nine acres, but it's owned town center and VR2, village

[55:03] village center, too. Um, and neither of those individually uh are zoning

[55:09] districts that are easily accommodated by a project like this. So John's task

[55:16] was to identify a overlay that we've called, as I indicated a few minutes

[55:22] ago, uh the uh greenway uh redevelopment overlay as a possible

[55:29] vehicle for to consider something like this. So I'd like John to talk about the

[55:33] ordinance. We submitted that draft ordinance with the sketch that u we made

[55:38] the formal submission of a couple weeks back. So like John to provide some

[55:42] planning concepts why he considered it, what values and benefits we think it

[55:46] serves. Uh so you can consider that as you consider the other elements of the

[55:51] project.

[55:55] Thank you. Uh my name is John Kennedy. I'm the principal of Kennedy Associates

[56:00] Planners and Landes Consultants. Uh just to briefly give you a little bit

[56:05] of my background, I have been a professional planner for 46 years. I

[56:09] have had my own consulting firm for the last 36 years. Uh we work for a wide

[56:14] variety of private developers, nonprofits, and also we have municipal

[56:20] clients. Um currently I am the planning consultant for Lansdale Burough. Uh also

[56:26] the planning consultant for Hatboro. In the past I've I also worked with uh

[56:31] Amler Burough, with Richland Township, Abington Township. uh typically in those

[56:37] cases on special projects when um in and in addition to that uh I

[56:45] have also spent 26 years serving on two planning commissions, one in Lansdale

[56:50] Burough and one in Lower Southford Township. Um 12 years in in Lansdale, 14

[56:56] years in Lower Salford. So I have a pretty good understanding of both sides

[57:00] of the table and how things work. uh Jim brought me in and Ed brought me

[57:06] in to uh take a look at the plan and review the existing ordinance and some

[57:11] of the existing planning documents uh of the bureau. So we started as we often do

[57:18] by looking at the existing districts and then we go on to the comprehensive plan

[57:24] and I am glad to see that you have recently updated your comprehensive plan

[57:28] in uh 22. uh not all townships and burrows are

[57:34] that uh prompt at renewing their comprehensive plan. So kudos for that.

[57:41] Um when I started looking at this, I I in talking to the whole team, I realized

[57:46] that uh there had been quite a bit of of input and thought put into this this

[57:53] plan. and and Jim uh does care very much about uh the way New Town looks and the

[58:01] downtown area. And so um we started looking at different ways that we might

[58:08] be able to implement this proposed plan. And like most things, there's more than

[58:13] one way to do that. Um, probably the the typical way that most people might

[58:19] approach this would be to provoke uh, excuse me, propose uh, some kind of text

[58:24] amendment on the underlying zoning. Unfortunately, in this case, we have two

[58:29] zoning districts, the TC and the B2. And the downside to that would be it starts

[58:35] to then affect other properties in the bureau that have that same zoning

[58:39] district. So that may not be the best way to approach it. Uh another thing we

[58:46] could do way we could uh implement the proposed plan would be to make an

[58:51] application to the zoning hearing board and we would have a long list of

[58:56] variances that we would need. Uh however, my own opinion, I'm not an

[59:02] attorney, but I don't think that that would be successful in this case because

[59:05] of the high legal bar that we need to uh overcome for variances and and obviously

[59:12] the use does have the property does have a a use due to the fact that it has an

[59:18] approved plan on it. So, I don't know that that would be the best path either.

[59:24] So, we started to talk about an overlay uh district, which I know that you do

[59:31] not have many overlays. I believe only one, just a flood plane overlay

[59:35] district, which is actually very common. Uh many municipalities use overlays for

[59:40] flood planes, deep slopes, and riparian corridors. Um but I actually utilize

[59:47] overlays for many, many different types of projects. Uh we utilize them in

[59:51] Lansdale Burrow. We utilize them uh in Hatboro quite a bit. Uh and in many of

[59:59] the other projects that uh I work on uh we do use overlays. One of the

[1:00:05] advantages of it in um in my opinion is that we're not changing the underlying

[1:00:10] zoning map. It all stays the same. The regulations stay the same. All you're

[1:00:15] really doing is you're applying uh you're you're giving the land owner

[1:00:21] another development option on that piece of land. So, it sits on top of the

[1:00:25] existing zoning and you could develop it either under the existing zoning or you

[1:00:31] could develop it under the overlay. One thing you don't get to do is pick and

[1:00:35] choose which regulations you want to do. We get people doing that occasionally in

[1:00:39] Landdale where they'll they'll say I'll take this from the business district and

[1:00:42] this from the downtown overlay district. Um but you cannot do that. Um, so

[1:00:49] looking at the the work that uh Dave and Michael have produced and going and and

[1:00:55] visiting the site and walking around the town, uh, I really think that this is

[1:01:00] probably the the best way to be able to solve this this little bit of a puzzle

[1:01:06] in being able to implement a project such as this uh, on a site like this

[1:01:11] where you have two different uh, zoning districts. uh but we need to be able to

[1:01:17] bring them together so that we can have one coherent project.

[1:01:21] So while there are uh two different zoning districts, that said,

[1:01:28] those two zoning districts are not really that far apart. They they may be

[1:01:32] far apart in your minds. I I get that. But I've worked on sites where, you

[1:01:37] know, half of it's R3 and the other half's industrial. So we don't have that

[1:01:42] here. If you examine the the TC district and then you examine the um the gateway

[1:01:49] district, the B2, many of the same uses are still allowed.

[1:01:53] It's just it there's the allowance for residential uses and the allowance for

[1:01:57] non-residential uses. They're just regulated in different ways, which was

[1:02:01] one of the main reasons why I thought that an overlay is ideal for this

[1:02:05] particular site. I became even more convinced after I

[1:02:11] dove into the comprehensive plan because what

[1:02:15] jumped out at me and rather surprised me is the fact that uh this project has the

[1:02:21] ability to uh align with many many of the goal

[1:02:26] statements in your comprehensive plan which I was a little bit surprised at

[1:02:31] that one project could kind of check so many boxes in a comp plan.

[1:02:36] Um, and many of those are uh laid out in the intent statement. I'm not going to

[1:02:43] go through this line by line because I know you have a a large agenda, but I'm

[1:02:47] just going to briefly go through it and then I will more than happy to answer

[1:02:50] any questions you have. Uh, but in the intent district, I do want to just spend

[1:02:55] a moment there. The intent statement, uh, we we have five um, eight different

[1:03:00] intent statements. Many of these are are taken directly from your comprehensive

[1:03:05] plan or they reference to the comprehensive plan. They also um many of

[1:03:11] these are taken from another document which is a little bit older uh 2011,

[1:03:17] the New Town Creek Wershed Conservation Plan prepared by the Heritage

[1:03:21] Conservancy. And that was a really interesting plan

[1:03:25] because it gets into um many other topics other than just the

[1:03:31] creek itself and the watershed and the hydraology of it all. It actually does

[1:03:36] get into um things like parking, land uses,

[1:03:41] housing. uh I was actually quite surprised and once again many of these

[1:03:47] goals or recommendations in that case uh in that study uh also do align with this

[1:03:54] particular project and I think there's the uh ability to maybe check some of

[1:03:59] those boxes off too. So um basically I will go through and at

[1:04:04] least read these. Um the first one is to implement the recommendations of the new

[1:04:09] town bureau comprehensive plan specifically core recommendations for

[1:04:13] sustainability, mobility, resilience and balance.

[1:04:18] Also to establish and preserve a greenway ribbon along the New Town

[1:04:22] Creek, to redevelop underutilized

[1:04:27] sites along the New Town Creek, to establish a greater variety of uses

[1:04:33] to complement local burrow businesses. to provide a greater variety of housing

[1:04:39] types within the burrow to provide additional community

[1:04:43] gathering areas in the burrow to create pedestrian connections with

[1:04:49] nearby recreational facilities which was one thing that actually was not

[1:04:53] mentioned and that is the uh bridge connection to the park over in New

[1:04:58] Township. Uh and then finally to provide access

[1:05:02] from the burough's commercial core to burrow recreation facilities, both the

[1:05:07] the greenway itself and then the park uh further south.

[1:05:12] Um the way the overlay is structured is what we call a mapped overlay. There's

[1:05:18] actually a couple of different types. Uh you can either define an area on your

[1:05:23] zoning map just like you have for other district uh districts.

[1:05:27] uh or they also sometimes overlays are done uh where it would apply on an

[1:05:34] entire district say on the whole R3 district or something. In this case

[1:05:40] we're talking about specific area that is mapped.

[1:05:46] Um in order to qualify for this um there must be a minimum gross tract area of 8

[1:05:54] acres. There must be a minimum of 1,000 feet of frontage along the new town

[1:06:00] creek and the track must have 300 feet of frontage on State Street. So that's

[1:06:07] what you use to really tighten it down and

[1:06:11] really just apply it to this one area. If any of those

[1:06:16] uh standards were tweaked, it may apply to other properties, but when I looked

[1:06:21] around, I could not find any that it would apply to. the standards would have

[1:06:25] to be radically reduced uh like going from a thousand feet of frontage on the

[1:06:29] creek to 300 feet of frontage on the creek. And I don't I don't know that uh

[1:06:34] certainly we are not interested in that and I'm not sure that the burrow is but

[1:06:38] you could do that at your own uh leisure if you wanted to in the future.

[1:06:44] Um in terms of uses uh they're laid out here. It's a a variety of residential

[1:06:51] which are multif family uh dwellings, apartment style units and then a wide

[1:06:56] variety of uh non-residential. The reason for that is that as some of the

[1:07:01] spaces may come up, we want to make sure that there are a lot of different uses

[1:07:04] that could go in those spaces. Uh we then get into the development

[1:07:10] regulations uh on page two which provide once again

[1:07:14] the tracked area. It regulates mix uh gets into the mixture of non-residential

[1:07:21] and residential. Also uh there is an open space requirement.

[1:07:26] Uh 25% of a GRRO tract uh must be uh remain in open space. In addition to the

[1:07:36] open space regulations just [clears throat] the simple percentage,

[1:07:40] there's also further refinement of the open space standards. For instance, 70%

[1:07:45] of the minimum required open space must be designated as a public greenway along

[1:07:50] the creek. We we want to make sure that you get the the the walkway along the

[1:07:56] creek as opposed to any kind of bait and switch. That's why they're all

[1:08:00] specifically written into this ordinance.

[1:08:03] Uh in addition, 10% of the minimum required open space shall be improved

[1:08:09] community open space. This is something that I'm very big on. Um, I know in

[1:08:14] Bucks County it's very popular to say we're going to take 50% or 60% of the

[1:08:19] land and preserve it as open space. And you got yourself a nice feel, but this

[1:08:23] is a burrow. You have people who use the streets. It's active. You want to have

[1:08:28] improved open space. Uh, it doesn't need to be huge because improved open space

[1:08:33] is much more expensive than natural open space. But once again, we want it in the

[1:08:39] ordinance which is why it's here. Uh and then we also have limitations on the

[1:08:44] amount of impervious surface that can be within the open space.

[1:08:48] Uh below that we have some standards for the greenway in terms of the uh width

[1:08:54] standards accessibility. Uh and then at the bottom of page three

[1:08:59] we get into dimensional regulations.

[1:09:06] We uh dimensional uh standards are on page

[1:09:12] four. Uh and then at the bottom are design standards. Uh and then we have

[1:09:17] design standards for buildings, street access drives,

[1:09:22] uh parking, off- streetet loading and trash, streetscape and streetscape

[1:09:27] amenities. And then there are uh at the very end of

[1:09:31] it there is the uh statement that the the site is also in the historic

[1:09:36] district which I'm sure many of you are aware of and those regulations do have

[1:09:40] to be followed. So in kind of a quick nutshell that's the ordinance that we

[1:09:45] have proposed. I think that uh it's a way that you could

[1:09:52] uh implement this development. Personally, from a planning standpoint,

[1:09:56] I think it's a wonderful opportunity. When I go out there and look at the

[1:09:59] site, I look at the creek and quite frankly, it needs some love. It really

[1:10:05] does. Not just fixed up, but also people that will use it. People that will walk

[1:10:09] down the the the walkway and will cross over the creek into the the park in New

[1:10:17] Township. And I think it's something that also

[1:10:20] would provide some uh additional um positive impact for the

[1:10:26] local businesses. I was especially struck by the uh the one comment I think

[1:10:32] it was in the comprehensive plan where they

[1:10:36] you want open space in the downtown, but you want it to be accessible to the main

[1:10:41] commercial areas. And I think that that's actually a great idea. It's sort

[1:10:44] of unusual, but part of it is because you've got this unusual uh landscape.

[1:10:50] The fact that you have this creek that is right smack up against your downtown.

[1:10:56] And uh my own personal feeling is it is a real opportunity. Uh this is our first

[1:11:03] presentation. Obviously, some of these things are going to get tweaked and

[1:11:06] changed a little bit, but uh we welcome your input and welcome your questions.

[1:11:12] And that that concludes our presentation.

[1:11:18] » Uh John's right. Um that's the extent tonight of the formal uh presentation.

[1:11:24] Obviously, we would solicit any comments uh that anyone would have about anything

[1:11:30] you saw or heard this evening. recognizing it's a lot to digest in one

[1:11:35] meeting but um it's a important first step for us and I'm sure u as well for

[1:11:42] council as well as the other stakeholders um in terms of the process

[1:11:47] that we at least the way I think about it um

[1:11:52] our thought would be our next step would be to return to the planning commission

[1:11:56] to continue the conversation we started in November

[1:12:00] um and to continue to flesh out the information that we presented to you

[1:12:05] this evening, which uh planning commission hasn't seen anything since

[1:12:09] November. So, some of what we presented tonight might be somewhat new or

[1:12:13] different to them. Um, one of the, uh, encouragements we did receive from your

[1:12:19] planning commission in November was to reach out to the community, make sure

[1:12:23] others uh, are consulted that have both in a direct and maybe a less direct

[1:12:29] impact, which we have, I think, done a better job than we did pre-Nvember

[1:12:36] uh, when, uh, some of the planning commission folks thought we had not done

[1:12:40] enough uh, listening to other community segments. So I think we've done much

[1:12:46] better since November to do that. Um and we will continue to do that with any

[1:12:51] feedback you provide us and as we go through the process any other feedback

[1:12:55] we receive. So um I know there are people here in the audience that may or

[1:13:00] may not want to speak. One unrepresented group uh that's not here tonight that

[1:13:06] I'm authorized to report to you is the phase one condominium unit owners with

[1:13:12] whom we've had a lot of engagement uh over multiple issues not just uh what

[1:13:19] would phase two look like but also addressing lingering issues they had as

[1:13:25] residents there today which Jim in large measure has addressed But none of the

[1:13:32] residents that reside there today could attend tonight. But I am authorized to

[1:13:37] tell you that there is unanimous support for what you've seen and heard this

[1:13:42] evening by that small group. Now, I'm sure they will be able to come at

[1:13:47] subsequent meetings to comment as well, but wanted you to they wanted me to

[1:13:51] share that with you tonight as you think about what you've seen and heard. So,

[1:13:56] uh, David and and Michael and John, uh, can answer any other questions and Jim

[1:14:02] answer any other questions you may have tonight. Uh, and hopefully you would

[1:14:07] offer folks in the audience if they choose to to speak good or positively or

[1:14:12] otherwise about what they've seen and heard tonight. Thanks.

[1:14:38] Thank you. Um, first of all, uh, to Jim Worthington and the whole team, thank

[1:14:43] you. It was a very wellorganized presentation and we appreciate the

[1:14:47] thoughtfulness in terms of how you put it together and the thoughtfulness in

[1:14:51] which uh that you um have have shown in terms of developing the plan. Um I have

[1:14:57] a question I think maybe best addressed to the architects with respect to um

[1:15:03] maybe if you could summarize what the differences are between this plan and

[1:15:08] the plan that you had presented previously to the planning commission.

[1:15:12] Was that's mostly architectural or were there site plan changes as well?

[1:15:19] » You know, it's funny. I just asked Ed if I could just kind of simplify this and

[1:15:23] you just asked the question I was going to answer, but he'll give you more

[1:15:27] detail. If you really want to simplify this plan, [clears throat]

[1:15:32] the Staple View planet, just so we're clear, had 88 apartments, but they also

[1:15:37] had a restaurant pad and other retail. Our our plan is 125 apartments. So, it's

[1:15:45] really 37 apartments different, but not all the mess that creates all the

[1:15:51] traffic. >> Yeah.

[1:15:52] » All the parking problems. >> Can I just interrupt you for a sec?

[1:15:55] Sure. >> Because uh I def I definitely appreciate

[1:15:57] that difference. Um and I I'm familiar with that plan. I was more focusing on

[1:16:04] the previous concept plan that you guys had presented to the planning commission

[1:16:10] that you had presented to the planning commission.

[1:16:12] » Our concept that we presented to the commission.

[1:16:14] » Okay. Well, can I just finish my thought and then he'll answer that. So I'm sorry

[1:16:18] I misre but I I think for the audience I because you see hear all this stuff you

[1:16:22] think wow what's the difference between the two? It was what that I had said

[1:16:26] earlier that it it's a it's really just getting rid of all the retail and the

[1:16:31] restaurant pads and everything that creates all the traffic and it just you

[1:16:35] know it Allan had a lot of apartments 88. We have 125. We don't have that many

[1:16:40] more than him but we eliminate all the problems with the off-site parking the

[1:16:46] 1,700 cars per week, 85,000 cars per year. We uh eliminate the uh we we have

[1:16:53] um more private uh public parking for all the people right on center ABS so

[1:16:58] they can walk right into town. And you know, of course, we've expanded the uh

[1:17:02] the the uh plaza space three times bigger. We've enhanced the the walkway

[1:17:07] trails. We have a lot of public uh things like the street lights and things

[1:17:12] like that that are surrounding that area that we're going to be fixing. But I

[1:17:16] will tell you I believe pretty strongly there isn't a whole lot of change from

[1:17:20] what we originally came with to what we get because one of the the f things I

[1:17:25] directed the architect I said we're not coming in with a plan where we're saying

[1:17:30] hey let's ask for the moon and let's negotiate down. I'm not into that. I

[1:17:35] wanted to come in with a plan that we can make it work for everybody but is

[1:17:40] not over the top that that doesn't need to be, you know, negotiated from this

[1:17:47] number down. I I'm that's not my style. We came in with the minimum we could do

[1:17:52] to make this plan work, not just for us, but more so for the for the town. I

[1:17:57] think you're going to see we haven't we haven't changed much of anything. I

[1:18:00] mean, people told me come in for with 200 apartments. I I'm not doing that.

[1:18:04] We're just not playing those games. We're going to come in with what we

[1:18:07] think and it isn't a heck of a lot more than what Allan had ironically. Yet,

[1:18:12] it's and God bless him. I love him. It's a far greater plan for this community.

[1:18:17] So, go ahead. >> Thank you. So, as Jim alluded to, that's

[1:18:21] my favorite word tonight. Um, we uh did not change too much. It's more

[1:18:26] advancement of the architecture. um advancement of some of the details that

[1:18:30] you see in the renderings as well as some of the balconies and those kinds of

[1:18:35] architectural elements on the architecture. Those are the advancements

[1:18:38] that we've made in terms of the locations of the buildings um where we

[1:18:43] have the main components of the plan that has all remained consistent with

[1:18:48] what we presented to the planning commission in November. There has been

[1:18:51] some advancements in the overall landscaping design. So certain things

[1:18:56] have been advanced further as we work through the design process but

[1:19:00] everything in terms of the components the locations of those components have

[1:19:04] remained consistent.

[1:19:07] » Thanks that that that was my question. Now one really sort of simple really

[1:19:12] basic question in the uh the illustrations the brick look brown and

[1:19:17] you had mentioned gray. So, um, is it just a matter of how it comes out on the

[1:19:21] screen or what is it that you're using? >> So, we're proposing a beige brick. Um,

[1:19:25] so I I thought that I had said beige. If I had if I'm mistaken, I'm sorry, but um

[1:19:31] it's it's going to be a beige brick, which I think is very elegant um for for

[1:19:35] the for the building. It's brownish. It has some hues of different things. And

[1:19:40] during the planning commission process, we can bring in some samples to show

[1:19:43] kind of the selection that we're choosing. We think it works well with a

[1:19:47] lot of the downtown uh buildings along South State Street um that have the the

[1:19:52] variety of brick color in terms of some yellows, some browns, some grays. We

[1:19:57] think that this matches rather well. When we were at Harb, we had proposed

[1:20:01] several red or uh burgundy uh colored bricks and we advised that they would

[1:20:07] rather see uh the beige palette as something that we do consistent on all

[1:20:11] of the buildings. >> Thank you. Any

[1:20:16] other questions or comments from council?

[1:20:19] » I do. I have one. Um, so the uh your your sketch plan indicates that you are

[1:20:25] developing a TND. Are you still anticipating that you're following our

[1:20:29] TND ordinance?

[1:20:39] Thi this would take some elements from the TND ordinance uh but primarily we

[1:20:45] are drawing everything from the proposed GRO overlay district.

[1:20:50] » Right. >> So that that leads me to my second

[1:20:52] question. What are the major differences between the GRRO and the TND ordinance

[1:20:58] knowing that the majority of your project is actually in the V2 district

[1:21:02] that there's very little building most of the building is on that side which

[1:21:07] does permit the TND >> there there's uh differences in terms of

[1:21:12] the types of units and the mixture uh if I recall I'd actually have to have my

[1:21:17] full notes because we did look at that carefully um there's there's not

[1:21:22] necessar necessarily big differences between these two districts. Um,

[1:21:28] so I'm I'm >> so my I took a quick look at your o your

[1:21:34] overlay >> and it appears to me that it is very

[1:21:37] similar to our TND with the exception of the sizes of the buildings that they are

[1:21:42] taller, they are longer and they have more units than our TND ordinance and

[1:21:47] our regular ordinance would permit. and that the the mixeduse element which was

[1:21:52] very important when the TND ordinance was put together seems to be lost in

[1:21:57] this development. >> Well, I I think one of the things is

[1:22:01] that this is uh the the the one of the differences between the

[1:22:07] proposed ordinance and uh the previous plan and and the existing zoning is it's

[1:22:12] encouraging more commercial than might be able to be leased or sold. Uh that's

[1:22:19] that's just a trend that we're seeing everywhere uh across this state and

[1:22:23] actually across the country. Um so it's pulling back on some of the commercial

[1:22:29] uh what is more important um and we actually see this a lot in um well

[1:22:35] really in both Lansdale and Hapo uh where the business owners they just want

[1:22:40] more households. It's as simple as that. They want more households to support the

[1:22:45] local businesses. you can add uh just a a little bit of commercial. Even then,

[1:22:51] it's going to depend on its actual location because right now we're seeing

[1:22:55] a lot of empty commercial spaces of all different varieties.

[1:23:01] » Thanks.

[1:23:05] » I do want to comment on the hype briefly. Um,

[1:23:12] one of the things that uh I think it might have been Dave mentioned this

[1:23:16] which is very important and a lot of people cavalerely throw this around and

[1:23:22] that is the idea of why don't you put all the parking spaces underneath the

[1:23:26] building. That is incredibly expensive to do. And so in order to accomplish

[1:23:32] that the developer see needs to make it

[1:23:36] worthwhile. I mean, just to be completely honest about it, this plan

[1:23:41] would look completely different. Even if it had less units, but you put

[1:23:45] all the parking on the surface, would not be nearly as attractive.

[1:23:51] And so, you do have to accommodate that within

[1:23:55] the architecture. And I think that's a very important point to make.

[1:23:59] Well, I'm certainly sympathetic to that and and I appreciate that a lot of the

[1:24:03] parking is being hidden because we are trying to get away from seas of asphalt.

[1:24:08] Yeah. >> Um and I understand that and I know that

[1:24:10] you have to balance the obviously the economics of building something.

[1:24:16] » Um and as been told to us for years as this property has been out there to be

[1:24:21] developed that you're trying to figure out how you can afford to do it by doing

[1:24:25] this or that or something else. And I I certainly understand that. I guess the

[1:24:29] end product though is what the town will have and so that that's important. So I

[1:24:34] don't want to go into a lengthy discussion about it now. I was just

[1:24:37] curious to get your feedback. >> Just want to make sure that that the

[1:24:40] point was made because it is very very important.

[1:24:42] » Sure. >> Any additional comments or questions

[1:24:46] from council?

[1:24:50] I just want to say it's it's very encouraging and um I look forward to

[1:24:55] working with this through and there's been debates back and forth on a lot of

[1:25:00] issues and I don't know I think we can come to an agreement and really make

[1:25:04] this thing work. >> Thanks Gail. So, um, Greg and I talked

[1:25:10] about, you know, you brought up process. So, we're going to take, um, the rest of

[1:25:14] the next few weeks of March for council to review not only the proposed text

[1:25:18] amendments you said sent, but also our engineers review of those. Um, and then

[1:25:23] we plan on, uh, discussing in our April cycle at our work session. Um, moving

[1:25:28] forward to sending this to planning commission for additional re review or,

[1:25:32] uh, going back to you um, with, you know, our thoughts on on the proposal

[1:25:36] and what needs to change, etc., etc., before we send anything forward. So, we

[1:25:40] plan on having that on our next cycle in April.

[1:25:43] » Okay.

[1:25:46] » You have any other questions or comments for us?

[1:25:49] » Unless you're going to not solicit public comment. I think there are people

[1:25:53] came tonight wanting to speak. So, I don't know if that's appropriate now or

[1:25:57] do you want to wait? But >> I mean, we typically don't um unless

[1:26:00] we're making a motion, but I I'm okay with that if anyone would like to speak.

[1:26:14] Good evening. I'll keep this uh brief and first of all, thank you for your

[1:26:18] service. I know that um these late nights are are not something for

[1:26:22] everyone, so appreciate that. I'm Dave Marcola. Uh I own three uh businesses

[1:26:27] here in the burrow uh in the real estate industry, commercial, residential, and

[1:26:31] uh estate sales. and I also serve as the president of the New Town Business

[1:26:35] Association for the past six years. Um, I just wanted to give a few comments.

[1:26:41] You know, over the years I've been involved in New Town, lived or worked in

[1:26:45] the community for the past 26 years. Um, I uh had the opportunity to run First

[1:26:50] Night New Town for anybody that remembers that back in the day on New

[1:26:53] Year's Eve. Uh, currently our parade, our holiday parade and uh our car show

[1:26:59] and welcome day. And so I can say that there's a lot of excitement from the

[1:27:03] folks who put those events on to have space like a plaza, to have space that

[1:27:07] doesn't require costly inconveniences of closing roads. And so we're excited

[1:27:12] about that. I also wanted to share that we gave uh Jim and his team the

[1:27:16] opportunity to share this plan with our members. We're over 300 business members

[1:27:20] strong at our January member meeting and uh it was very wellreceived. I know

[1:27:26] Linda, as you heard, spent a lot of time on the streets, uh, talking to

[1:27:30] businesses as well, hundreds of businesses. And so, I've reviewed all of

[1:27:33] that. I've reviewed the original plans, and I reviewed the plan that you saw

[1:27:37] here tonight. And I do think that, you know, over the 26ome years that I've

[1:27:42] been here, we've all seen change, right? We've all seen a lot of progress. And,

[1:27:47] uh, we've also seen a lot of things done really well. On the residential front, I

[1:27:52] can't tell you how many times a week I tell people, unfortunately, no, there's

[1:27:55] just nowhere here to live. On the commercial front, I can't tell you how

[1:27:59] many times I tell people, you probably can't afford that commercial rent in New

[1:28:02] Town. All of that means we're doing something really well. We're a desirable

[1:28:07] community that people want to be in. They want to be a part of. I live right

[1:28:11] now, um, sad to admit, in Pennington, New Jersey, as I'm rehabbing a a 200-y

[1:28:16] old farmhouse and look forward to coming back to New Town. But every day my car

[1:28:20] is in New Town. Everything I do is in New Town. Work to gym to eat to you name

[1:28:25] it. So, um, and that's because it's the perfect balance. And I think that's

[1:28:31] something Julia you mentioned about striking the balance. I think the time

[1:28:35] that's been spent reviewing and the the efforts of the experts. Um, I think you

[1:28:39] guys know your job obviously, but I think I feel like myself as well that I

[1:28:43] would agree that I think we're in a place where a lot of those things that

[1:28:46] come with progress that are unfortunately challenges um have been

[1:28:51] met headon with this current plan. Um, I don't think we'll ever have perfect.

[1:28:55] There is no such thing, but I like what I see and I wanted to just share my

[1:29:00] support from my community here in New Town. Thank you.

[1:29:03] » Thank you very much. >> Is there anyone else who'd like to

[1:29:06] speak, please?

[1:29:15] Good evening. I'm Lisa Flmer. I'm the executive director of Lower Bucks County

[1:29:19] Chamber of Commerce and we recently moved into the stocking works um this

[1:29:24] past year and um we're very excited to be a part of New Town Burrow uh not just

[1:29:30] for our membership but also for the businesses that we represent and the

[1:29:35] burrow itself is well known for so many various cultural activities in addition

[1:29:42] to the niche that you have of feeling like a hometown town and what Jim has

[1:29:51] done and I've I've worked with Jim when I served on the Middletown Township

[1:29:54] Board of Supervisors so in the early 2000s and he ran our Middletown Country

[1:30:00] Club. He doesn't do anything halfway. He also ensures that he takes into

[1:30:07] consideration all of the stakeholders and their needs and their requirements.

[1:30:14] Um so not just the municipalities but also the businesses. You could see that

[1:30:19] from every single aspect of this plan completely ditching the former plan to

[1:30:24] what he has created now. Taking into account the hindrances um that would

[1:30:29] have you know befell the community but also ensuring that what he is building

[1:30:36] what he is presenting to this community blends with this community. It is

[1:30:42] aesthetically pleasing. It takes care of your walkway along the creek to provide

[1:30:47] not only access to nature for the residents there, but for those that come

[1:30:53] and have business in the community who decide that they want to dine in the

[1:30:57] community in addition to the entertainment that could reside at the

[1:31:02] pavilion. I think one of the things that I enjoy

[1:31:06] most in my capacity is the number of residents that will now be a part of

[1:31:13] your community that will then frequent the commercial sector of your community.

[1:31:18] That only bodess well for the businesses along State Street and throughout the

[1:31:23] burrow, but it also bodess well for their future and their success, which

[1:31:29] then also adds to the value of this community. this beautiful community that

[1:31:34] you continue to create, foster, and ensure that for generations to come,

[1:31:41] they will know exactly the history and legacy of New Town Burough, not only

[1:31:46] maintain it, but sustain it for its legacy. So, thank you for your time this

[1:31:50] evening. I really hope that you consider this plan in its entirety and bring this

[1:31:55] forth for not only the burough residents but also the commercial sector and for

[1:32:00] the future of the burough. Thank you. Thank you very much. Would anyone else

[1:32:06] like to speak? Please come up to the podium.

[1:32:14] » Hello, my name is Excuse [clears throat] me. My name is John Monahan. I live at

[1:32:18] 202 South State Street, so I would be right across from this building. And I I

[1:32:25] just have to tell the board members how how much better I think this plan is

[1:32:30] than the the plan that was in effect when I purchased.

[1:32:36] I think the the buildings architecturally the buff brick m u

[1:32:42] doesn't imitate but echoes the building directly across state street on the

[1:32:48] corner of pen and also the first uh national bank of new town building which

[1:32:54] you would see from these buildings and I think the mixeduse idea sounded good 15

[1:33:02] or 20 years ago but really it would not work in this location. And also, if I

[1:33:08] were a business, if I had a business on on State or or Sycamore Street, I would

[1:33:14] just like, do I need the competition? The answer to me would be no. But do I

[1:33:20] need customers? The answer would be yes. And one reason I moved from Pipersville

[1:33:26] to this building was I wanted to be in a place where I could walk to to the

[1:33:34] restaurants and the other businesses that are right here. And I think you

[1:33:39] will find that uh as one of the uh people stated, you're going to find a

[1:33:46] lot of people who are downsizing who live in New Town or nearby and they go,

[1:33:50] "Yes, I want to I want this, but I don't want to buy." So the rental, I think,

[1:33:55] also makes a better idea. You may get younger people who are going to be

[1:34:00] renting as well. And there really isn't that much rental in New Town Burrow. I

[1:34:05] go by, I see the Laroo building and a few others in the small small rentals

[1:34:10] down the street down State Street at 440 State Street, but you don't see all that

[1:34:16] much more uh rental space. And also, I think we need to move ahead on this. And

[1:34:23] one more thing is that the speaker who was talking about the wild flowers,

[1:34:29] let's also keep in mind that the bank of the new town creek is going to be

[1:34:34] improved. It's it's one of the few places you'll be able to access. In

[1:34:39] fact, I think it's the only place you'll be able to access uh and walk along New

[1:34:44] Town Creek and it'll be cleaned up. The rusty shopping carts will be out and

[1:34:49] it'll be much nicer. So, I'm also authorized to speak for the people in

[1:34:55] 202 who were unable to attend tonight because they're away. And uh without

[1:35:01] exception, everybody is in favor of this and would like to move forward as

[1:35:07] expeditiously as possible. Thank you. >> Thank you very much.

[1:35:13] Anyone else, please?

[1:35:25] Hi, my name is uh Jim Wis, 2011 Penn Street. Um, some of the other people

[1:35:31] already mentioned some of the things that I wanted to talk about, but I've

[1:35:34] been involved with a lot of things in the community, been around town as much

[1:35:37] as anybody doing various things and working in the community way back when.

[1:35:42] We all love Allen and I was on a committee with Allen probably in year

[1:35:45] 2000 where we talked about improving the creek and the you know doing a creek

[1:35:50] walk and here we are 25 years later we're still talking about doing

[1:35:55] improvements along the creek and an asset that we have there that we're not

[1:35:59] using. In addition to that, I see five, six empty buildings around town. I agree

[1:36:05] with everybody else that including more retail down there is probably not the

[1:36:08] best opportunity when we already have vacant

[1:36:12] things and and like the guy said before, you need clients if you want to have

[1:36:16] retail and and people using those things. So, I'm also in support of it.

[1:36:20] There's some things that I don't know if it's going to be phased or not. maybe

[1:36:23] this isn't the time to bring it up, but an important part to me also is that

[1:36:26] public space that's down along the creek. And I just would like to ensure

[1:36:31] that that gets built as part of if there is any phasing and I don't know if

[1:36:34] there's any phasing or not that that is one of the first phases that's done

[1:36:38] because I also think that's an big draw to to everybody and importance to

[1:36:42] everybody. So those couple things I'm in support traffic is always going to be an

[1:36:47] issue. You're never going to make everybody happy like somebody else said,

[1:36:50] but we need a spark in this town to get some things rolling in a better

[1:36:54] direction and uh I think this will help. >> Thanks.

[1:36:57] » Thank you very much. Anyone else?

[1:37:01] Okay, thank you gentlemen very much. >> Thank you.

[1:37:10] » Okay, so we're going to move on to certificates of appropriateness. Chris,

[1:37:16] » thank you. If it's okay with uh our solicitor and

[1:37:20] council, I'd like to group the first three together. They're all going to be

[1:37:25] proposed for um approval. >> Is that all right?

[1:37:30] » Y. So I would uh move to follow the

[1:37:34] recommendations of the historical architectural review board and direct

[1:37:38] the president of council to sign the following certificates of

[1:37:40] appropriateness thereby approving the historical appropriateness of the

[1:37:45] applications with final approval by the code enforcement officer. The first

[1:37:49] application is COA 2026-9. It's 159 North State Street and the

[1:37:55] applicant is Mike Hutchinson. The applicant seeks a certificate of

[1:37:59] appropriateness for the demolition of an existing shed addition on the back of

[1:38:04] the house and an early 20th century shed at the rear of the property.

[1:38:09] [snorts] Harb recommended approving the application for demolition, noting that

[1:38:13] neither the shed addition nor the rear shed has architectural nor historic

[1:38:19] significance.

[1:38:22] Our second application is COA 2026-6 and 20267.

[1:38:30] This is for 105 and 107 North Chancellor Street. Our applicants are Christopher

[1:38:36] Grimes and Charles and Barbara Lewis. The applicant seeks a certificate of

[1:38:41] appropriateness for repairs to the shared front porch of this twin house.

[1:38:47] Again, that's both halves of the twin house. Harb recommended approving both

[1:38:51] applications for 105 and 107 North Chancellor Street with the following

[1:38:56] changes. The main three posts will be repaired

[1:39:00] using Dutchman or epoxy. The railing will be salvaged if possible or replaced

[1:39:07] in exact kind in terms of proportion and detailing. The ballusters will be

[1:39:13] salvaged. Necessary new ballasters will be turned to match the existing.

[1:39:18] And third, we have COA 2026-8. This is 110 East Center Avenue. And this

[1:39:26] applicant is Peggy and Doug Levvin. The applicant seeks to seeks a certificate

[1:39:30] of appropriateness for alterations to the rear porch. Harb recommended

[1:39:35] approving the application as presented. >> Thank you. I have a motion. Do I have a

[1:39:39] second? >> Second.

[1:39:42] » Thank you. Any comments or questions from council on these COAs?

[1:39:48] Okay. I know I asked this earlier, but are any of the applicants present?

[1:39:53] Any public comment on these COAs? All those in favor?

[1:39:58] » I >> I

[1:39:59] » I. >> Any nays? Motion passes.

[1:40:04] » Okay. Now, uh I move to follow the recommendation of the historic

[1:40:09] architecture review board and deny the following certific certificate of

[1:40:13] appropriateness. This is COA 2026-00005

[1:40:19] for 17 North State Street. The applicants are Caroline and Janine El

[1:40:26] Classen Trust. The applicants seek a certificate of

[1:40:30] appropriateness for installation of a fence. Harb recommended denying the

[1:40:35] application, emphasizing that if the PVC fence had become had come before HARB

[1:40:42] before its construction, it would have been denied.

[1:40:47] » Thank you. I have a motion. Do I have a second?

[1:40:50] » Second. >> Thank you. Any comments or questions

[1:40:52] from council on this motion? >> Is the applicant present?

[1:40:57] Any public comment? All those in favor? I

[1:41:01] » I any >> any nays? Motion passes.

[1:41:07] » Okay. Seeing as we are missing our dear Chief Sabbath, um we'll move on to the

[1:41:10] mayor's report who we are also missing. Um so I would just uh say that we have

[1:41:16] two events on here that we will make motions for tonight to um approve. Um so

[1:41:22] I would entertain a motion for Arbor Day.

[1:41:26] I'll make a motion to approve Arbor Day sponsored by the recreation board on

[1:41:31] Friday, April 17, 2026 from 9:00 am to 11:30 a.m. at Brian S. Greg Park. Rain

[1:41:38] date is April 24th, 2026. >> Thank you. I have a motion. Do I have a

[1:41:42] second? >> Second.

[1:41:44] » Thank you. Any comments or questions from councel?

[1:41:47] Any public comment? All those in favor?

[1:41:51] » I. >> Any nays? Motion passes. Uh, I'd

[1:41:56] entertain a motion for the Memorial Day parade.

[1:41:59] » I'll make a motion to approve the Memorial Day parade sponsored by the

[1:42:02] American Legion Morell Smith Post 440 on Monday, May 25th, 2026, 9:00 a.m. to

[1:42:09] 11:30 a.m. along a designated parade route. No rain date.

[1:42:14] » Thank you. I have a motion. Do I have a second?

[1:42:16] » Second. >> Thank you. Any comments or questions

[1:42:18] from councel? Any public comment?

[1:42:23] All those in favor? >> I

[1:42:25] » I >> I

[1:42:26] » Any nays? Motion passes. Now, there's an additional uh item under uh the mayor's

[1:42:32] report. Uh but I don't know what Tara was planning on saying about it. It's

[1:42:36] just about uh that Saturday, August 8th will be New Town celebrates America's

[1:42:40] 250th. Um we'll add this to the next agenda so she can give us more detail

[1:42:45] about that.

[1:42:49] » Okay, Greg. Moving on to the solicitor's report.

[1:42:51] » Great. Uh the first thing I'm going to take up under the solicitor's report are

[1:42:54] actually moving from the president's report up to the solicitor's report

[1:42:57] which is an update on the fire services agreement. As council may be aware um

[1:43:02] the township did approve on their end a uh I guess our offer uh for the amount

[1:43:10] to enter back into a fire services agreement with the township at their

[1:43:14] previous meeting. We received a draft agreement after the work session uh last

[1:43:19] week. Um and so that's in review. We're asking for a little bit more

[1:43:22] information. There was some documentation missing from the

[1:43:25] transmission that we got. And so that's under review and we'll be bringing that

[1:43:28] to council for review and discussion during the April and and and hopeful

[1:43:33] approval uh during the April session. So that's just an update on that. Um then

[1:43:38] next item on the solicitor's report is the continued appeal hearing for 239

[1:43:43] Court Street, which is a Harve appeal. Are the deacons present? You want to

[1:43:47] come up? We'll we'll continue where we left off. As a reminder for the board,

[1:43:52] we looked at this um at a previous meeting. Um this is regarding a

[1:43:57] retaining wall at 239 Court Street um that uh was erected prior to receiving

[1:44:04] any approvals. Um at the last meeting, council elected to remand uh the

[1:44:13] application to HARB uh for a recommendation on uh what they would

[1:44:18] recommend to be placed there uh had uh it gone through the normal review

[1:44:23] process to inform council's decision in this appeal. Um so HARB did take it up

[1:44:29] at their meeting on the 25th of February. Uh, and the minutes reflect

[1:44:34] the um following statement. And I'll just read that in as we as we um

[1:44:42] did at the last one. Uh Harb recommends a well the it was stated that the if the

[1:44:48] application had come before the wall as built, it would have been denied. Harb

[1:44:53] recommends a simpler, more appropriate stone wall. The stone shouldn't be laid

[1:44:58] in an ashlar pattern uh but rather more closely match the irregular and roughly

[1:45:03] dressed stone of the house's foundation. The cap should be less formal than the

[1:45:08] existing rectangular cut blue stone top. A more appropriate stone cap should be

[1:45:14] of the same stone as the wall. Um and so the ultimate was that they would they

[1:45:20] denied it still but made those recommendations for council's benefit in

[1:45:24] this hearing. So, as we reconvene now, um, as the deacons have come forward,

[1:45:30] um, I don't know if if the deans would have anything, uh, that they would like

[1:45:35] to offer council at this time based on that recommendation made by HARB as to

[1:45:39] where you are in the process or we can open it back up to uh, council's

[1:45:44] discussion, but I would give the first opportunity to begin.

[1:45:47] » No, I mean, I I don't, as I said before, I don't um, you know, first of all, we

[1:45:52] obviously didn't try to do anything sneaky. There's a thousand cars drive by

[1:45:56] our our house every day on on Court Street. So, we didn't get a permit. We

[1:46:01] screwed it up. Um, you know, as I mentioned before, and I don't you know,

[1:46:06] you guys are here long enough, but we've we stole the idea off the house on

[1:46:11] Washington Street. It's a brick house. Um, their stone is very similar to ours.

[1:46:16] I don't pretend to know the names of the stones and all that stuff, but but their

[1:46:20] stone is very, very similar to ours. As I said to you guys before, that's where

[1:46:24] I got the idea or my wife and I got the idea. The other thing is there's it was

[1:46:29] mentioned that the stone doesn't match the stone of the foundation of the

[1:46:34] house, but the home across um from the funeral home has a similar wall. It's

[1:46:42] not it's different. So, I'm not I'm not acting like it's exactly the same, but

[1:46:46] it certainly doesn't match the foundation of theirs. So again, we're

[1:46:50] not, you know, we're not trying to do anything to be sneaky. If we owe money

[1:46:55] for the permit, that's fine. You know, if whatever we're not we're not trying

[1:46:59] to be difficult, but I feel like we got a tennis match going on. I'm going back

[1:47:03] and forth, you know. Um I think it looks nice. We've gotten a lot of compliments,

[1:47:09] you know. Um I mean, I don't know what else to say. I don't, as I said, I I

[1:47:14] don't think we've uh I don't think the top piece looks any different than

[1:47:18] multiple homes in the area. So, I don't really understand that. But again, we're

[1:47:23] not we're not trying to be difficult. We're easy to get along with, but I

[1:47:27] mean, at some point, I mean, I I think we tried to do the right thing. The

[1:47:31] house looks nicer, I think. Again, I'm not totally objective, I guess, but you

[1:47:35] know, it just I feel like we're being a little nitpicky to be truthful with you,

[1:47:39] but and I'm not trying to be difficult. We'll do whatever we got to do. I'm not

[1:47:43] it just as I say I think there's other homes in the area that look exactly the

[1:47:47] same who are very very similar that apparently didn't get get their hands

[1:47:52] slapped. Make a long story short. >> Thank you Mr. Deacon. council, we'll

[1:47:56] open it back up to I mean, we we were already in discussion and certainly you

[1:48:00] can ask any additional questions of the deans related to this in light of the

[1:48:04] recommendation or or I know it's a recommendation the evaluation made by

[1:48:10] HARB.

[1:48:13] » Oh, well I I went to look at your wall again this weekend. Um

[1:48:19] I there are there are a number of things

[1:48:22] going on here. I would agree with you that you know you did it's similar to

[1:48:27] other walls in town and I see where you got the idea actually went and looked at

[1:48:30] those walls and you are correct their walls did not match their foundations at

[1:48:34] all either. Um and har I think Harvest being inconsistent or maybe they're

[1:48:41] being consistent in their inconsistencies because they have

[1:48:44] approved walls. They have told other property owners don't make your wall

[1:48:50] look like your foundation. I've heard multiple times when people have come to

[1:48:54] put walls in their backyard and said, "Oh, we picked this stone to look just

[1:48:58] like our house." And the response from Harb was, "No, make it look different."

[1:49:03] And and then it is true. There are houses on Washington Avenue that have

[1:49:07] stone walls that are recent that were approved that don't reflect the

[1:49:11] foundation at all. They're granite and their houses are are um the brown

[1:49:15] sandstone Bucks County stone. Um, your wall

[1:49:21] has a much has a modern look to it and I'm wondering if you would be willing to

[1:49:27] consider replacing just the blue stone top with a rougher stone that matches

[1:49:33] the stone of the rest of the wall. I think that might soften the look and

[1:49:38] might um, obviously it's not going to match your

[1:49:42] foundation and I don't I don't I wouldn't say that it needs to. I would

[1:49:46] say that it might take away from the more modern aspect of that wall compared

[1:49:51] to the age of your house. >> Yeah. I mean, we'll certainly take a

[1:49:54] look at it. As I said, we're not >> No, I get along with I'm more than happy

[1:49:58] to have >> Do you want I'm wondering if is there

[1:50:00] any kind of photo we could get of what you're talking about because that

[1:50:03] definitely seems >> Well, rather that what you have is a is

[1:50:05] a modern blue stone which is very popular right now. The top the top

[1:50:10] piece. >> Okay. and and Harb actually did say this

[1:50:13] that they were suggesting that a more appropriate stone cap would be of the

[1:50:17] same stone as the wall. So you have uh stone in the the you know your your

[1:50:21] vertical surface is is [snorts] like it was a a concrete block wall that

[1:50:27] had a laminate put on right. So the the kind of stone that the front of the wall

[1:50:31] is, if you could get you can go to a quarry and get some stone pieces to put

[1:50:36] on the top of the wall instead of the blue stone cap that might soften it

[1:50:41] better. And then >> we're happy to we're happy to take a

[1:50:44] look at it and most likely do that. I'm said I'm not recommendation.

[1:50:47] » Yeah. I No, I I I I understand your situation. I I

[1:50:52] » Yeah, I get it. Yeah. [snorts] >> I just don't And we're happy to do it.

[1:50:57] » Yeah. said, "We're going to do whatever you whatever."

[1:51:00] » Right. So, if you were just >> don't understand how there's multiple

[1:51:03] homes that have the same top. And again, I don't I don't even care what it cost

[1:51:06] us. >> We'll do it. Get it done. I just don't

[1:51:08] understand as you're saying earlier, which I appreciate you taking the time

[1:51:11] to go look at the homes. Um, you know, but

[1:51:15] » there's so many others that are the same is that's all I'm confused about. But

[1:51:19] we're happy to do that. No problem at all.

[1:51:22] » I do have a question though. So, we need to get a we probably should go before

[1:51:25] ARB again. No, they would >> um I don't know. In the past, people

[1:51:31] have asked harb to like help them pick the stone, but not necessarily go back

[1:51:35] through the whole process again. >> It would be up for council. There's

[1:51:38] there would since they've appealed from the har. We're in a harb appeal here and

[1:51:42] council ultimately has the the say on what gets installed or not. So, I think

[1:51:48] it would be appropriate if council wants to determine

[1:51:51] » what it wants to do. It doesn't have to. I mean you can certain you can certainly

[1:51:55] send them back to harb like you just did but there is no requirement whatsoever

[1:51:59] that they need to go back to harve where they are in this process.

[1:52:03] » We might be able to get some advice from harb from the consultant to say what

[1:52:07] would be the best stone to do this or what should it look like or how should

[1:52:10] it be but not go through the whole har coa process. I don't we don't want to go

[1:52:15] through another month of this. [laughter]

[1:52:22] Um, hello. Um, may I make a recommendation?

[1:52:25] » Yeah, go ahead, Josh. >> Right.

[1:52:28] » Um, so, uh, in the past we've had folks bring in materials that they were in

[1:52:33] question to our work session and let us take a look at those. Could that be a

[1:52:38] possible solution to go ahead and bring in the material uh for the the cap of

[1:52:44] the wall as Julia suggested suggested and then council can make a decision

[1:52:50] rather than because Harve's recommendation was that it wouldn't be

[1:52:54] approved and then they sent it back to be um uh they would they said that they

[1:52:59] would want it to look like the foundation and we're kind of in

[1:53:01] disagreement over that it sounds like and I appreciate Julia you bringing that

[1:53:05] to all of our attention. about the history of that that really adds a lot

[1:53:09] of context. So I would recommend they select a material that looks that would

[1:53:15] that could be appropriate to match what you were talking about Julia and then

[1:53:19] bring that to a work session where we can evaluate it and approve it.

[1:53:24] » That that's absolutely an option. >> Yeah.

[1:53:29] » Yeah. >> Yes.

[1:53:30] » So first of all, sorry for keeping you in purgatory over this.

[1:53:33] » No, we're all good. This was my biggest problem. the the reason you're in

[1:53:36] purgatory is because we're trying to be thoughtful and and not not jump to

[1:53:42] conclusions uh because of the situation. Um and nobody's sent you a uh violation

[1:53:48] notice or anything like that. We'll get through it. Okay.

[1:53:50] » No, it's all good. I'm not >> um that's the main thing I wanted to say

[1:53:54] with respect to uh Julia's suggestion. Um, I just want to mention that, um,

[1:54:01] having like rough stone on top is may or may not be an easy thing to do to cap a,

[1:54:09] uh, to cap a block wall with. Uh, and to me, the more important piece is that

[1:54:15] these the stone itself in color and texture is able to match um match the uh

[1:54:23] the wall stone. um and not so much that it's that's it's uh fully rough or

[1:54:28] that's there's a whole bunch of different pieces, but um other than

[1:54:32] that, I'm open to I'm open to suggestion. I'm open to a practical

[1:54:37] solution. >> Thank you. Is there is there a home?

[1:54:42] Again, I'm not expecting somebody to give us an address off the top of your

[1:54:45] head, but if there's if there's a home we can go look at for what you're

[1:54:50] requesting, >> you know, I'm happy to do that. Well,

[1:54:53] [laughter] I I I just do want to make the point because you've mentioned it a

[1:54:56] few times when when Harborviews these kinds of things, they're not comparing

[1:55:00] it to any other house. Every house is >> bas is judged by itself. It's not So

[1:55:07] something that could be appropriate for a house on Washington Avenue that was

[1:55:11] built 100 years after yours might not be appropriate for yours. That's how Harb

[1:55:16] reviews things. So, I just wanted to point that out. But that doesn't mean

[1:55:20] there's not another house in town that has the kind of stone uh that Julia is

[1:55:24] referencing. So, >> we're not super creative. We like to

[1:55:27] have >> Well, who did this wall? Did you work

[1:55:29] with the mason? >> Our landscaper that we've used for 25

[1:55:33] years. >> So, he laid the stone and everything.

[1:55:36] » He did everything. [clears throat] >> Yeah. Um you might talk to him if he's

[1:55:38] got some ideas. You might bring this back to them and him and say, "Well,

[1:55:42] what would you suggest that's is not as >> um modern."

[1:55:47] » Okay. and that would blend better and he might be able to say, "Oh, yeah, I did

[1:55:51] this for so and so." and be able to send you that way. If that doesn't work, I'm

[1:55:54] sure we can find some resources for you. >> Okay.

[1:55:57] » Or Harb could actually >> and and and likely like if he has a

[1:56:00] couple suggestions, a couple samples that council could review, um that

[1:56:04] probably be better. >> Who would we reach out to? Is it Anna

[1:56:09] » when we have um >> you can reach out to Craig?

[1:56:11] » Craig. >> Okay.

[1:56:12] » Yeah. Our our April work session is >> the 8th. It's a week later.

[1:56:19] » Wednesday, April 8th is when we'd have the opportunity to review them.

[1:56:23] » Okay. Um, no, that's perfect. And and I do I appreciate you um

[1:56:27] » the suggestions we do >> trying to work with us. I'm not um

[1:56:31] » and we promise we will always get for every other thing we do.

[1:56:34] » I appreciate you working. We'll figure >> if that's if that's the direction of

[1:56:38] council. We don't have to do a any formal motion. I would just say that

[1:56:42] we'll stand we'll we'll recess this hearing until the April 8th meeting and

[1:56:47] that the direction of the deans is to uh source some samples for a cap to the

[1:56:53] wall and if you can share them and if you are able to you can also coordinate

[1:56:58] with Craig to share them in advance but it will be discussed and we'll resume

[1:57:02] this conversation at the April 8th work session with a with an agenda item for

[1:57:06] resolution to this as well >> potentially. That's perfect. Is it is it

[1:57:11] fair to say that that just to keep this in mind that um and picking up on

[1:57:15] Julia's comments, number one, that um uh we don't like the blue stone in the

[1:57:20] modern look, right? So, we're looking for something that's a perhaps more uh

[1:57:24] of a match to the other stone that's on the wall. Is that what you're saying?

[1:57:29] » And secondly, ideally a little bit more rough hune if

[1:57:33] possible. Again, matching matching the wall. That's uh

[1:57:37] » all on the top piece. >> That's what we're suggesting. you you

[1:57:40] take a look at. >> That's perfect.

[1:57:43] » Okay. Thank you very much. >> Thank you. Have a good night.

[1:57:46] » Thank you. >> You too.

[1:57:48] » Uh the next item on the

[1:57:53] » No, because there's no motion. It was a hearing.

[1:57:59] The next item on the uh under the solicitor's report is um the

[1:58:05] consideration of a handicap parking space uh with conditions at 446

[1:58:09] Washington Avenue. Um this was provided as a resolution for council uh numbered

[1:58:15] 3-10-2026.

[1:58:19] Um this would establish a reserved parking space um with conditions in

[1:58:24] front of 446 Washington Avenue. Um and this is established pursuant to um

[1:58:30] section 535-32E of of the code of burrow of new town. Um

[1:58:38] the resolution re uh I won't read it. Uh the all the whereas clauses but the the

[1:58:45] conditions that the resolution establishes is that the reserved parking

[1:58:48] space is established in front of 446 Washington Avenue. that the reserved

[1:58:52] parking spaces shall be demarcated within the cartway of Washington Avenue

[1:58:56] in front of 446 Washington in an appropriate location determined by the

[1:59:01] burrow. The burough shall issue a permit to Mallerie Newman for her exclusive use

[1:59:05] of the reserved parking space without fee required. The reserve parking space

[1:59:09] shall include a sign with such signage restricting use of the parking space

[1:59:13] solely and exclusively to the permit holder. The Burrow of New Town shall

[1:59:17] delineate the reserve parking space with visible lit linage following the size

[1:59:23] and line spacing of section 486-21E of the code of B burrow of New Town and

[1:59:29] that the reserved parking space and permit shall be available to the permit

[1:59:32] holder for so long as the permit holder resides at 446 Washington Avenue or no

[1:59:37] longer holds a handicap placard or license plate.

[1:59:41] Thank you. So to begin discussion, I would entertain a motion from council.

[1:59:52] » So you want to do the motion >> for the for the parking space? Yes. And

[1:59:55] then we will discuss. Yeah. >> Like to make a motion to approve a

[1:59:59] reserved handicap parking space with conditions for 446 Washington Avenue.

[2:00:06] » Thank you. I have a motion. Do I have a second?

[2:00:08] » Second. >> Thank you. Okay. Okay, now we can open

[2:00:10] it up to comments or questions from council.

[2:00:16] » I have one I actually have two questions. Um I'm in favor of this

[2:00:20] motion, but I just I want to clarify some things. Um Michelle, this is a

[2:00:24] state road. Um are there any special requirements that um is are we able to

[2:00:32] provide this parking space without any um permitting from PENDOT?

[2:00:38] » That's it. That's a good question. You may need to

[2:00:42] um get a permit from Pendot at least for the signage. That's something that we

[2:00:47] could look into for you. >> Okay. So, having the spot is not the

[2:00:50] problem, it's the sign. It may be both. >> Okay. Okay. Um my second question is um

[2:00:57] knowing the um

[2:01:02] I don't know if the word I want to use the the scarcity of parking at that end

[2:01:05] of of the block and given the number of houses that don't have off- streetet

[2:01:10] parking that are in the neighborhood of this particular address. I'm wondering

[2:01:14] if if the Newmans would be willing, although I don't want to put this into a

[2:01:18] motion. I'm just asking since I see that um [snorts] that Matt is at the podium.

[2:01:23] Um if if Mallalerie knows she's going to be away for an extended period of time,

[2:01:28] like a week or a vacation or something, would there be would you be willing to

[2:01:34] um make that spot available to others?

[2:01:40] » I'm not quite sure if I'm being directly addressed because I really being invited

[2:01:46] up here. I just kind of showed up. Um, yes. I mean, if if if we know that we're

[2:01:52] going to be gone for a month for or, you know, a week for a vacation, absolutely

[2:01:56] anybody can use that spot. This is just solely so that Mal has the ability to

[2:01:59] park in front of her spot when it's she's having a bad day and, you know,

[2:02:04] she needs to be close when there's groceries and I'm not home. So yeah, if

[2:02:09] I mean we would absolutely work with the neighbors if if that's something you

[2:02:13] know there's generally oa there have been occasions where you

[2:02:19] know random people will park there but it's generally just our our local

[2:02:22] neighbors and we're happy to work with them.

[2:02:24] » Okay. Thanks. >> And that would also be an enforcement

[2:02:27] issue. So I guess the Newman's could just alert

[2:02:30] » Sabbath >> put a bag over the sign

[2:02:32] » just alert chief Sabbath that this to not enforce the the permit you know.

[2:02:37] Okay. >> During that time,

[2:02:40] » so should we um make this uh subject to uh pendot approval? Is that what we're

[2:02:47] saying? >> If required. If required.

[2:02:51] » Excuse me. >> To the extent required. Yeah.

[2:02:52] » Hi. >> Go ahead, Josh.

[2:02:55] » I have a question. Um so in regards to the signage, one of our conversations

[2:02:59] that we've had as council, will there be any kind of painting of lines or

[2:03:03] anything to mark the location? And if so, and if PINDOT approves that, how do

[2:03:08] you um then I I I hear the question about working with neighbors when

[2:03:13] they're not home, but that seems like a whole another issue of how do you say,

[2:03:18] well, those lines don't matter right now. Just throwing that out there. Any

[2:03:22] comments on that from U Michelle or Greg? I think Josh I I think as I'm u

[2:03:30] mentioned I think it would the lines not mattering would be an enforcement issue

[2:03:36] uh for the for the police department. Um they're they're the ones who are going

[2:03:40] to be going around and saying there's a there's a car without a permit parked in

[2:03:43] a permit spot or or inappropriately parked in half the spot. So if there's a

[2:03:47] if there's a time that the Newmans would not be utilizing the spot and they can

[2:03:52] advise the the police department of such, they could not enforce it at that

[2:03:57] time. Um there there's not there's not a another party that would be enforcing

[2:04:04] that parking regulation other than the police department. And the and the

[2:04:08] resolution does does state that linage will be painted on the on the roadway to

[2:04:15] to allow an appropriate amount of room for a car to park there so that it

[2:04:20] wouldn't be uh impossible for Miss Newman to

[2:04:25] actually utilize the spot based on other cars being parked on the block.

[2:04:31] » Does that answer your question? >> I think I think so. Yes.

[2:04:37] So, um, we want to amend the motion to be contingent upon meeting the

[2:04:41] requirements of PENDOT should there be any.

[2:04:46] » So, >> I think I think we we I think you would

[2:04:49] have to understand that we don't really have a choice in that in that matter

[2:04:53] that PENDOT would have to ultimately approve.

[2:04:56] » Yeah, I I fully understand that we can't skirt the overarching laws that we live

[2:05:03] under. >> [laughter]

[2:05:06] » So, I guess you can just say as amended. >> Uh, as amended.

[2:05:12] » Second. >> Second.

[2:05:13] » Okay. Any additional comments or questions from council on this?

[2:05:18] Any public comment? All those in favor?

[2:05:22] » I >> I.

[2:05:24] » Any nays? Motion passes.

[2:05:29] Um and the last item on the solicitor's report is regarding a pillar agreement

[2:05:34] um with the Newman's for an EV charging post in the right of way in front of 446

[2:05:38] Washington Avenue. Um there was some documentation that was supplied to

[2:05:44] council on the location uh and the uh schematics of the uh um corresponding uh

[2:05:53] electrical work uh to the extent that it was available now um with the

[2:05:58] understanding as I think Mr. Dr. Newman understands that anything that would be

[2:06:01] installed would have to be uh under a permit issued by the burrow, inspected

[2:06:06] and compliant with the the burrow's electrical code and the NEC. Um so that

[2:06:11] that has been presented. We do not have a a draft of any pillar agreement, but I

[2:06:16] think we would we would ask that if council is inclined to approve this

[2:06:21] tonight. It's more so related to whether the pillar can be related there and we

[2:06:25] would then work on uh and with Mr. Newman and his council on getting a

[2:06:31] pillar agreement together that would satisfy any requirements that would be

[2:06:36] uh dictated by council. >> So we're looking for a motion to open

[2:06:41] discussion.

[2:06:45] So, this is just to open the discussion, >> correct? Just like we do every other.

[2:06:49] [laughter] >> Everyone's different. I'd like to make a

[2:06:51] motion to approve a pillar agreement with Matthew Newman for an EV charging

[2:06:56] post in the right of way in the front of 446 Washington Avenue.

[2:07:00] » Thank you. I have a motion. Do I have a second?

[2:07:03] » Second. >> Thank you. Um I'll open it up to

[2:07:05] comments and questions from council. >> Question number one to Michelle. This is

[2:07:10] a state road. Do we have to get a home a highway opening permit or other kinds of

[2:07:16] permits from PENDOT to even consider this

[2:07:19] » because it's in the rightway is >> in the in the rightway of a state road.

[2:07:25] » You may. [laughter]

[2:07:29] » Yes. Yes, you may. >> Um my

[2:07:34] » Would that be the responsibility of of the burrow as it's in the right of way

[2:07:37] or the responsibility of the property owner?

[2:07:39] » Property owner. So my second comment is that there has

[2:07:44] been a tremendous amount of new information that's come within the last

[2:07:47] 24 hours. The um proposed design of the post, the the actual charger being

[2:07:54] selected, the way the wiring is done, comments, we just at 3:00 this afternoon

[2:08:00] got a response from um Barry Iset regarding um the electrical code and

[2:08:06] what he would need to be looking for. And it's very complicated. there's a lot

[2:08:09] of stuff. Um so, um I would say we're not ready to consider a pillar agreement

[2:08:14] at this time. Um if it is going to be referencing a particular design or uh or

[2:08:22] whatever. I'm so I'm I'm trying to decide whether

[2:08:26] the ability to consider a pillar agreement, which is

[2:08:33] saying, "Yeah, we're in favor of a pillar agreement." and all of the the um

[2:08:38] who's responsible for what and who's uh and all of the second page of that o

[2:08:43] that other draft that was that you had previously given us Greg whether um but

[2:08:48] eliminating any reference to any particular design or anything because

[2:08:52] that would have to be taken care of separately that would be something that

[2:08:56] I might consider but if it's going to have any kind of direct indication of

[2:09:01] what we are approving we don't have nearly enough time to review the

[2:09:05] information we've received to make sure that we know what's being proposed

[2:09:10] before we actually say okay. >> I I think the the primary purpose of the

[2:09:15] pillar agreement is to approve the location of the the fixture that would

[2:09:20] that would be erected in the right of way. um any any [snorts]

[2:09:26] electrical standards, the the charger, however that would uh comply with the

[2:09:32] burrow's existing code would be subject to the permit that would have to be

[2:09:36] pulled. Um, so whether it's the the cable running under underground, the uh

[2:09:42] charger that's installed, the um how it's wired, uh would all be subject

[2:09:49] to the review of that permit, subject, you know, under our existing uh

[2:09:53] electrical code. Um I think that there are are some things that council could

[2:09:58] consider as part of this that were in that uh original agreement um like uh it

[2:10:03] being locked or not available for public use. The

[2:10:07] And I know that there was some information that this one can't be

[2:10:09] physically locked but not available for public use. That could be a condition of

[2:10:13] the existence of this pillar in the right of way um that could be separated

[2:10:18] off from the uh technical specifications.

[2:10:24] Well, to a certain extent I I disagree because the um the pillar as it's

[2:10:30] currently being depicted in the latest picture that we got is basically a post

[2:10:36] with a charger hanging on it and if I'm interpreting it correctly, a 25 foot

[2:10:42] charging cable wrapped around and hanging off a hook on

[2:10:47] the side of it. >> [snorts]

[2:10:49] » So, if that's what we're looking at right now, then um I'm not in a in a

[2:10:54] position to support that. We were previously told this was something that

[2:10:58] was going to hide something. That's what went to harm. There's too many things

[2:11:02] that are out there and keep changing like hourly. So, um, I would suggest

[2:11:07] that we not we that that we can't have an agreement that in any way, shape, or

[2:11:14] form is approving what's actually going to get put there. But then the second

[2:11:19] half of that is when we've had pillar agreements come before council before,

[2:11:23] it's to say, I want to put this ballard or this pillar in the rightway in front

[2:11:28] of my house. It looks like this. And council says, okay, it looks like that.

[2:11:32] That's what we're going to allow. Therefore, we will write this agreement.

[2:11:36] So, you see where I'm stuck. I do >> in the middle of this.

[2:11:39] » I do. And I think Mr. Newman may be able to answer some of those questions, if

[2:11:43] not all of them. But I I I'm I'm not capable of answering them. I looked at

[2:11:48] the same uh materials that that were forwarded to council.

[2:11:52] » So, I I have too many questions. So, um that that's where I am on this one.

[2:12:00] I I just I guess from a solicitor's perspective in in the eventual

[2:12:05] consideration of a pillar agreement, if that's council's choice for this, then

[2:12:10] uh I guess I would ask for council's

[2:12:15] direction on when we can work on answering those questions so that uh

[2:12:22] we we can move move this forward if council so desires. Um whether that's

[2:12:27] tonight with Mr. Newman or or in some other other form. Uh that's I think that

[2:12:35] direction is necessary so that we're not in uh we're not back here in a meeting

[2:12:39] and still have unanswered questions. That that's my concern

[2:12:42] » for sure. So based on all of this documentation that's gone back and forth

[2:12:46] and and the uh opinions weighed one way or another on all different things, um

[2:12:52] it would seem to me that a more detailed um and I would say quote unquote final

[2:13:02] um design is presented to us. The one we just got was not even 24 hours old and

[2:13:08] it's completely different in terms of components and how things are arranged

[2:13:12] and and and so on. So we don't have that. Um just

[2:13:23] could I I have a question. >> Yeah.

[2:13:28] » Um so would could and and this also is a question for Greg. Could we not um uh

[2:13:34] approve the pillar agreement contingent upon it meeting the electrical code and

[2:13:39] standards that of which I'm not as aware of but our our permitting office and and

[2:13:45] code inspectors are. Um, could we do something like that which would give

[2:13:50] them the ability to move forward in good faith and then also to for the Newmans

[2:13:55] to work probably a little bit more closely with the permitting office and

[2:14:00] um and their recommendations to make sure that this is moving in the right

[2:14:04] direction. >> Josh, I I it's certainly feasible to uh

[2:14:09] approve a pillar agreement subject to the that type of condition. Um, I will I

[2:14:13] will say I agree with with Julia that council needs to um as if you're

[2:14:20] approving the pillar agreement then council has to be comfortable with the

[2:14:23] the fixture that's going to be erected. Uh I don't I I I'm agree that it can be

[2:14:28] contingent whether the the inards and the the electricity of it can be

[2:14:33] conditional based on the approval of a permit by the and working with the code

[2:14:36] office. Um, but the actual fixture and I would venture to say the the charger

[2:14:41] that's mounted there as well is part of what you're con you're considering when

[2:14:45] you're approving the pillar agreement. So I I council does have to feel

[2:14:49] comfortable with that information. Um, I think that there's been over the course

[2:14:53] of this I think there's been three different things that council has seen.

[2:14:57] We started with a a post I think with a charger on it. There was a secondary

[2:15:02] scheme uh from uh that you saw recently that that it appeared to be hidden. The

[2:15:08] most recent one, as Julia mentioned, shows a a mounted charging box. Again, I

[2:15:13] think albeit smaller in size than any one that than the previous version of a

[2:15:17] mounted charging box, but yes, council has to be comfortable with the post uh

[2:15:22] general the general location of the post and and any uh impertinances on that

[2:15:27] post. uh but it could absolutely be contingent on the technical electrical

[2:15:32] aspects of it being approved by the code office and those with that technical

[2:15:37] expertise. >> Um I have a question for you Matt. Um

[2:15:42] the the latest plan that we just got yesterday that is different than the

[2:15:46] original one. Um, was the original one an actual like

[2:15:51] portable plug-in cord that you could have un unplugged and put in your car

[2:15:57] when not charging? >> That uh that was never the intent. Uh

[2:16:02] I'll be quite honest. Um I was uh a little bit uh expeditious with that

[2:16:08] first version. I was just trying to put something together uh per uh in order to

[2:16:13] provide some kind of visual impact so that council could understand what we're

[2:16:18] looking for the location of it in reg uh respon or regards to the the rightway

[2:16:24] and where the parking spot would be. Um I had not gone through the detailed

[2:16:28] electrical engineering necessary uh and mechanical engineering necessary in

[2:16:33] order to to do that. Um that is what led me to version two which is what was

[2:16:39] presented to harb where everything was kind of hidden. Um I was running under

[2:16:44] an assumption that that could be a hardwired system. Uh when I again got

[2:16:50] into the details there is no provision to hardwire that system. Uh and that

[2:16:55] would have required a very large pluggable um outlet that would have been

[2:17:02] able to be removed. I I suppose, but I was trying to hide it and make it more

[2:17:07] visually appealing for the neighborhood. Um, so when I came to the conclusion

[2:17:13] that that was not a NEC uh acceptable installation, I had to move back to an

[2:17:19] external charger. But all of the electrics are inside of the pillar in

[2:17:23] order to um again reduce the visual impact. Uh there is

[2:17:30] the the the the risk in my mind associated with doing uh a removable

[2:17:36] charger is one we're talking about somebody who does have mobility issues

[2:17:41] sometimes. Uh these cables are fairly heavy. Uh they're difficult to move and

[2:17:46] the the in the the main issue from an electrical safety standpoint. Yes, we

[2:17:52] would have a large outlet down near the bottom that it could be plugged in.

[2:17:56] again, more visually impactful. Those systems are not intended to be plugged

[2:18:00] in and removed repeatedly. Uh you'll get wear over time. It's it's just not um

[2:18:08] it's not an ideal use case. >> Okay. Thank you.

[2:18:14] » May I >> please?

[2:18:16] » Yeah. So um uh with respect to so first of all um

[2:18:23] in order to accommodate your wife right we have gone a step further than what

[2:18:29] the ordinance already allows which is that we can we can establish a um a

[2:18:36] handicap parking spot um as a reasonable >> issues though

[2:18:42] » talking about that I I know I know but to me one is related to the other. Um,

[2:18:48] so I just pointing out that in addition to what would be allowed under

[2:18:52] ordinance, we're entering into an agreement that gives you exclusive use

[2:18:56] of that with respect. Now, secondly, with respect to the pillar, again, we

[2:19:01] have an ordinance that provides for that and I'm perfectly happy with proceeding

[2:19:06] um to enter into a pillar agreement um in accordance with whatever the

[2:19:12] ordinance allows. The issue to me is the EV charger. We

[2:19:17] have no ordinance for an EV charger. We've begun to discuss it. I've

[2:19:23] expressed my uh strong concerns with a number of issues with respect to EV

[2:19:28] chargers on posts along our streets. We live um in a in a town that's a uh it's

[2:19:37] an intimate town with houses close together um with um not everybody has a

[2:19:43] driveway. It's not possible. But that doesn't mean we should be putting uh uh

[2:19:50] charging posts in the ride of way across the burrow. And I don't see how this

[2:19:56] specific situation is any different from the situation with respect to any other

[2:20:01] resident in the community. And um so I am 100% against

[2:20:08] um any pillar ordinance that would include the EV charger. I think that's a

[2:20:14] mistake as a precedent. I think it's a mistake as a policy. Thank you.

[2:20:21] » Thank you. Any other comments or questions from council?

[2:20:26] » Would it be helpful? I'm sorry. Were you a sec?

[2:20:30] » I I have full faith in zoning and electrical.

[2:20:34] » Is your mic on? >> I have full faith in the zoning and the

[2:20:39] electrical and I I think that we could do this pillar knowing that

[2:20:44] they're they're going to do their job and it's it's going to work and it's

[2:20:47] going to be good. concern I have is comes back to the cable and the

[2:20:51] connector that goes from here to the car and maybe I don't completely understand

[2:20:56] it and need to look at this better. Um, but to have cables just hanging out

[2:21:02] there just seems to be a way we

[2:21:07] we need just to work on it and make sure that we can get a design that doesn't

[2:21:13] have that long cable there all the time because if everybody on Washington

[2:21:18] Avenue has these pillars, which are great, which are fine, I have no

[2:21:21] problems with them, but the cables attached to them.

[2:21:27] May may I speak to that? >> Yes.

[2:21:29] » Um, so as as far as an untethered EV charger, uh, there is a little blurb at

[2:21:34] the at the very back on the decision-making process on that.

[2:21:38] Ultimately, you cannot get a ULlisted EV charger in the United States that is

[2:21:43] untethered. So, that is ultimately not a possibility. The only

[2:21:48] possibility to accomplish that would be to use a portable charger.

[2:21:53] » Right. Um, have you thought about um the

[2:21:58] possibility of mounting your charger on a post in your

[2:22:04] yard and then sending a conduit underneath the sidewalk that comes up to

[2:22:10] this post in the right of way and I know this particular charger that you have

[2:22:16] currently you're currently looking at because we actually have one and that

[2:22:20] can you then take you you can open it up And as you know, you can hardwire it.

[2:22:26] You can also detach the charging cord that's current the the charging cable

[2:22:32] where it's attached to that unit. Take that and feed it back from the right

[2:22:38] ofway under the sidewalk and back up to the charger.

[2:22:42] So it's a 25 foot long cable. If it's if you're charging right at your

[2:22:48] post, you probably need about five feet on the street side. That right? So, if

[2:22:54] what's coming up is your charger cable and when it exits maybe exits your post

[2:22:59] from the top of your post, you have about five feet left that you can use

[2:23:04] then to get to your car and then when it's not in use that you might be able

[2:23:09] to feed that bit of cable back into your hollow post and then flip the cap back

[2:23:15] down on the top. Have you thought about something like that?

[2:23:18] » Um, I have not. I would entertain that, but that would take a significant amount

[2:23:23] of research and engineering to determine if the heat loads for the flex flexible

[2:23:28] cables are not intended to be in conduit. So, the EV cable that goes from

[2:23:33] the charger to the plug is per the NAC, you're not allowed to put that into

[2:23:38] conduit. So, I don't I don't know if there's a method there. Mhm.

[2:23:43] » Um, >> but I haven't thought about it much

[2:23:46] further than getting to that point in the NEC and saying that's that's a nogo.

[2:23:50] » That's interesting. So then the other item I wanted to bring up is that when I

[2:23:53] was doing research for the EV ordinance that I'm have presented to council and

[2:23:57] that is currently being worked on that um looked at a number of communities

[2:24:04] that provide charging curbside charging and they basically have a pillar that

[2:24:08] comes up with a receptacle in it and then people are issued an um a charging

[2:24:17] cord that they then plug in when they're charging and unplug when they're not

[2:24:21] charging. And so I know there are some cities that have these. I also know that

[2:24:26] there's at least one company that will do this, like if you have a private

[2:24:30] business and you want to provide charging at the street that they will

[2:24:34] wire it up for you and that's what you have. And then people who sign up to

[2:24:38] this like charging club or whatever are issued these

[2:24:42] cords that you these charging cords that you can connect to the pillar and to

[2:24:47] your char and to your car. And then there is no um cable hanging out there

[2:24:51] that has to be wound around. >> You could point me to a company. Um that

[2:24:55] would appreciate it. I my research I have not found any UL listed pieces of

[2:25:00] equipment that meet that. >> Okay.

[2:25:02] » Description. >> Well, be happy to share information that

[2:25:04] that I've found if it will be helpful for your design.

[2:25:09] And then I'm wondering if for council's activity if what I should be

[2:25:14] doing and I'm not I don't want to do it yet but would be to table the for the

[2:25:18] discussion on this motion to enable us to get more um I'm not making the motion

[2:25:25] to table just saying if this is something that will be helpful is to

[2:25:30] table this so that enable every all parties to get more information and to

[2:25:34] be able to address this more concretely at a future meeting. [snorts]

[2:25:43] » I have one more question though for Matt.

[2:25:45] The way you are charging now, um, is that just a level one charger?

[2:25:50] » It is. >> It is. Um, I would assume you'd have a

[2:25:53] lot more flexibility with a level one charger. Have you thought about just

[2:25:58] having a pillar that could use that? I would imagine you have a lot more

[2:26:04] options. I know it takes forever. I have a level one charger still. Um, but is

[2:26:10] that at all an option where we wouldn't have some of these issues with a 240?

[2:26:17] » Ultimately, I'm not going to speak to

[2:26:24] the goal here was to futureproof. >> I'm sorry. It was to what?

[2:26:28] » To future proof. >> Okay. I I don't want to be coming back

[2:26:31] to council in in 10 years when EV car or combustion cars are banned or whatever

[2:26:37] the situation may be. Obviously, the landscape would be different then. But

[2:26:42] um I think we can all see electric cars being a benefit to society both to from

[2:26:47] an environmental impact but also just from you know the the the absolute chaos

[2:26:53] and flux in the world and how that affects gas prices and things of that

[2:26:57] nature. Um, so the goal here was to to be able to put a level two charger in if

[2:27:04] it comes to it that you know I I I don't really want to

[2:27:08] speak further than that, but that's that's where the intent was.

[2:27:15] » Any other comments or questions from council?

[2:27:19] » May May I make just one more? >> Yeah, I'm I'm going to ask that was my

[2:27:24] next question. Does the applicant have anything else to say?

[2:27:27] Um there were a couple of things. Um

[2:27:30] absolutely I will well I guess the one question I

[2:27:35] have for Michelle would be is it our respons I know it's our responsibility

[2:27:39] to apply um in the event that we need to uh get an application. Is that our

[2:27:45] responsibility to do that research as well?

[2:27:47] » I I I can give you a name of somebody at PennDOT.

[2:27:51] » Okay. that you could contact to see if you actually need a permit or they can

[2:27:55] give you some sort of approval to do that.

[2:27:58] » Okay. Thank you. Um

[2:28:02] I I kind of have lost my thought here. I've um obviously been trying to figure

[2:28:08] out a way to charge my car for a long time. Um I know it's not a great

[2:28:14] situation right now, but it does not look like there's going to be a

[2:28:16] resolution anytime soon. Um, outside of this discussion, and maybe

[2:28:24] I'll speak one more thing. Um,

[2:28:29] I I've done I've done a spent a lot of time that I don't really have trying to

[2:28:33] figure this out. I think that I've created a a fairly aesthetic

[2:28:38] um um design that is safe. It's defensible.

[2:28:44] It's, you know, the the the coupling of that to ah this is the the thing that I

[2:28:52] wanted to mention. The coupling of that to the dedicated parking spot is

[2:28:56] intended in this situation to uh mimic the driveway that we were denied by

[2:29:02] zoning hearing board. If uh if I quite frankly had done a little bit more

[2:29:08] research and understood the level of complexity and the legalities associated

[2:29:12] with zoning hearing board, I probably would have been a little bit more

[2:29:15] prepared for that situation. Uh we might not be in this situation right now. We

[2:29:19] might I might be parking there. The agreement that we had put together

[2:29:25] was intended to alleviate the need for that zoning variance. And in order to do

[2:29:31] that, we needed a dedicated spot as well as the ability to plug an electric car

[2:29:36] in in the future that we all know that is coming. So that's kind of the drive

[2:29:44] here. In my mind, if it's one or the other, it's not it's not uh an equitable

[2:29:51] trade. Um, and that's kind of where I'll I'll end

[2:29:56] that discussion. Um, moving forward, I don't believe that we're going to have

[2:30:02] resolution anytime soon. As I mentioned, is there some guidance that I can do an

[2:30:10] an ADA compliant cord cover for the level one charger? Something that we can

[2:30:16] quite frankly get this monstrosity out of my the front of my yard. I I'm

[2:30:20] looking for guidance. I'm not trying to be malicious here. I just I want the

[2:30:26] right answer. Is it possible for for Matt to work with

[2:30:32] Barry Isit, the gentleman who sent us all of the very technical specs? I mean,

[2:30:38] is that a thing that's done? >> I mean, I think that he would have to

[2:30:42] work with Anna as our representative. She is the front-facing person when when

[2:30:45] he would go apply for something and Greg, tell me if I'm wrong, and she

[2:30:49] would then relay. But that's just >> it. It would be coordinated through Anna

[2:30:55] and and Craig. uh on a permit level. I I think the problem here in the the issue

[2:31:02] Matt's referencing is without council approval, nothing can really be

[2:31:07] installed within the right of way. So any type of permanent fixture can't go

[2:31:14] forward uh in any way, shape, or form, whether it's it's burying a cable or or

[2:31:19] a cord or whatever to to provide it. And from a a liability standpoint, uh having

[2:31:27] a some type of

[2:31:31] uh obstruction or impediment across the sidewalk uh is is not something that I

[2:31:39] can recommend uh to council at this juncture, which is why we were this

[2:31:46] which is as Matt stated is the basis of of this conversation. So I I

[2:31:52] I'm not sure if there is, you know, there are there are certainly I know

[2:31:56] you're referencing an ADA compliant, you know, uh, wire cover for certain

[2:32:02] applications, whether in a in an auditorium or something for for someone

[2:32:07] to to transverse. I'm not sure if that would ever be acceptable in a a public

[2:32:14] right-of-way situation and and absent maybe Michelle and I reviewing that

[2:32:19] because I can tell by that by Michelle's gesture there that that I that we don't

[2:32:24] know off the top of our head whether that exists, we c we can look into it.

[2:32:28] Um, I'm not I I will be honest, Matt. I'm not confident in any way that there

[2:32:34] is something because the the whole point of a rightway is that it is unobstructed

[2:32:39] in in all ways. Um, but council's blessing, we can certainly explore it in

[2:32:45] the in the interim here. >> So, I have a question. If uh if this

[2:32:50] doesn't get tabled and the motion is denied, what are the next steps for the

[2:32:56] Newman's? Is it just done?

[2:33:01] » [laughter] >> I

[2:33:02] » no >> I mean

[2:33:06] » is it done is um >> always come back again. I mean it's not

[2:33:11] it's not the end of the >> I guess my question is they they they

[2:33:14] will have a course of action to be able to try to do this again should it get

[2:33:18] denied. This is all discretionary in council's

[2:33:23] th this particular motion to the pillar agreement is all discretionary for

[2:33:27] council. So it could if it gets denied it can certainly be added to a future

[2:33:33] agenda again. >> Um

[2:33:38] that's answering your question. >> How long cable the permanent cable from

[2:33:41] the pedestal to your car that'll be there all the time. How long is that?

[2:33:45] » It's 25 ft. >> I'm sorry. What was that?

[2:33:47] » It's 25 ft. >> 25. So, you are going to have a 25 ft

[2:33:50] cable. >> I haven't reached out to the

[2:33:55] uh manufacturer to find out if there's a sanctioned way to shorten it, but that

[2:34:00] is a possibility. Um, as Julia mentioned, I think it can be

[2:34:05] disassembled according to the instructions, but whether or not they

[2:34:08] would sanction that and it would still be ULlisted, I don't know.

[2:34:14] So, my suggestion again is to table this to allow everyone to get more

[2:34:19] information so we can reconvene and discuss this with um having some of our

[2:34:25] questions answered and Matt doing more research, us doing more research, be

[2:34:30] able to talk to our um our consultants, understand this better, and then be able

[2:34:35] to look at this again, which might be a little bit easier than voting this

[2:34:39] motion down and then having to bring it back again and starting this all over.

[2:34:45] So, if you'd like me to make that motion, I'm happy to do it.

[2:34:49] » May I comment? So, um I to me it really makes no difference whether we table. I

[2:34:55] don't have an objection to tableabling. Um if we were to deny as as Sister said,

[2:35:01] it would be we could essentially deny without prejudice. So, um it could be

[2:35:06] reintroduced um whenever. So, from that perspective, it it really makes little

[2:35:11] difference to me. I mean, my only concern right now is as as

[2:35:15] um Mr. Newman said, it's a it's it's a you use the word monstrosity, but

[2:35:24] anyway, it's an uncomfortable situation on the street, and the sooner we get

[2:35:28] this resolved one way or the other, the better. that you're you're I think um

[2:35:36] hoping, anticipating, whatever, that this gets resolved in a way that allows

[2:35:40] you to put a post in. Um and so you're trying to keep the car charged in the

[2:35:46] meantime. Um from from my perspective, and as I said, I'm not for um allowing

[2:35:52] the charging post at this time until such time as we have an ordinance that

[2:35:58] allows it. Um, I think it's important that uh we we get some resolution here

[2:36:06] so that um if if it's yes, it's yes. And if it's no, you're you're going to have

[2:36:10] to deal with the the fact that you have no charger for your car and fix your

[2:36:16] hardship that you've created in some other way. But all that being said,

[2:36:22] um that was just my editorial comment. It doesn't really change that we can

[2:36:27] either table or deny

[2:36:32] I mean, in effect, is there really any difference between tableabling or

[2:36:38] » or denying without prejudice? Is is >> what would make it easier for Matt to

[2:36:43] come back, >> right?

[2:36:44] » There there's there is no difference.

[2:36:50] » I think >> so.

[2:36:53] I would I would prefer to table it if that is the feeling in the room from

[2:36:57] fellow counselors that this needs further discussion.

[2:37:02] » Okay. I'm going to make a motion to table this pending um the to offer

[2:37:07] council the ability to um do further research as previously stated.

[2:37:12] » I have a motion to table. Do I have a second?

[2:37:14] » Second. >> All those in favor? I

[2:37:17] » I I tabled.

[2:37:25] I'm sorry. We don't take public comment when we table motions. Sorry.

[2:37:32] [laughter] >> Doesn't happen. Sorry.

[2:37:34] » There's a public comment period. >> Yeah, there's public comment at the end

[2:37:37] that you can speak at.

[2:37:42] » So, it's been tabled so we can try to come to a solution

[2:37:47] and and introduce it at the April cycle. So, what am I to do with my monstrosity?

[2:37:54] » Take it down. >> I would

[2:37:55] » Nobody's >> I would tell

[2:37:57] » we can what? >> We can certainly talk after the meeting.

[2:38:01] » Nobody from Burrow has asked me to take it down, but I did receive a solic uh a

[2:38:06] court summon about it. So, I just not sure if everybody's aware here.

[2:38:10] » Well, hang hang on. We're we're not approving its existence in any way,

[2:38:14] shape, or form. >> I know that, but nobody's asked me to

[2:38:17] take it down. You haven't been issued a violation notice yet?

[2:38:20] » Yes, he has. He's been citation. He has a court date.

[2:38:22] » He was issued a citation. I I can't speak before the citation.

[2:38:26] » It went straight It didn't get he didn't get a violation for this. It went

[2:38:29] straight to citation. >> It was a violation for the previous post

[2:38:33] which has been removed. >> The and

[2:38:37] the code officer interpreted that as a continuation of the same violation.

[2:38:46] Okay. Thank you. >> All right. Uh, moving on. Manager's

[2:38:53] report.

[2:39:00] » So, there I have one item of business that um we discussed at the last meeting

[2:39:05] regarding um the action to solicit bids for landscaping

[2:39:12] services. Um we're looking to get more um performance and for more economical

[2:39:22] services which I'm believe we can uh accomplish and we'll do that through

[2:39:28] this motion um this evening to solicit bids for the landscaping services.

[2:39:37] » I would entertain a motion from council. Um, I'll make a motion to authorize

[2:39:41] solicitation of bids for landscaping services.

[2:39:44] » Thank you. I have a motion. Do I have a second?

[2:39:47] » Second. >> Any comments or questions from council

[2:39:50] on this? And >> I'll just mention for council's benefit

[2:39:53] that we did review the bid package and it's it's ready to go upon your

[2:39:56] authorization. >> Thank you. Any public comment on this

[2:40:01] motion? >> All those in favor?

[2:40:05] » I >> I.

[2:40:06] » Any nays? Motion passes. I keep forgetting there's a lag there.

[2:40:10] » Yeah. >> Okay. Well, we've moved um the only item

[2:40:13] under my report went earlier with Greg's report. So, I will uh move on to the

[2:40:17] approval of minutes and entertain motions.

[2:40:20] » I'd like to make a motion to approve the February 4th, 2026 work session minutes.

[2:40:26] » Thank you. I have a motion. Do I have a second?

[2:40:28] » Second. >> Thank you. Any comments or questions

[2:40:30] from council on these notes? These minutes?

[2:40:33] » All those in favor? I Any? Motion passes.

[2:40:38] » I'd like to make a motion to approve the February 26, 2026 council meeting

[2:40:43] minutes. >> Thank you. I have a motion. Do I have a

[2:40:45] second? >> Second.

[2:40:46] » Any comments or questions from council on these minutes?

[2:40:50] » All those in favor? >> I.

[2:40:53] » Any naysay? Motion passes. Okay. Moving on to budget and finance.

[2:40:57] I'll entertain a motion for the consolidated expenditure report. I'd

[2:41:01] like to make a motion to accept subject to audit the consolidated expenditure

[2:41:06] report for the month of February totaling $314,826.17.

[2:41:14] Thank you. I have a motion. Do I have a second?

[2:41:16] » Second. >> Thank you. Any comments or questions

[2:41:18] from council on this? Any public comment?

[2:41:23] All those in favor? >> Any nay?

[2:41:27] » Any nays? Motion passes. Okay. Gina personnel Uh, no additional activity. We

[2:41:33] are still looking for two members for the uh, human relations commission.

[2:41:38] » Okay, great. Thank you. Any old business from council?

[2:41:43] Any announcements? Public to be heard.

[2:41:52] Please come up.

[2:42:00] Joe Lovey, 151 North State Street. You guys know me. Uh, it's in reference to

[2:42:05] the uh, bear with me. 239 Court Street Wall. I wanted you to there's something

[2:42:12] interesting and I think the historical guys are wrong on this. Uh, my house is

[2:42:18] 233 years old. Every every chimney in the town has blue

[2:42:24] stone on the top of the chimney. The reason why they put blue stone on the

[2:42:29] top of the chimney, not the regular stone, is because all stones absorb

[2:42:34] water. Blue stone have tighter pores. Okay? So what it is is that the reason

[2:42:40] why first of all if you look at other places if you use a brownstone it's got

[2:42:45] to be almost a foot thick because when the water hits it it absorbs in it it's

[2:42:50] going to crack and break. The only wall in our town that we had something like

[2:42:54] that was on State Street right next to the Fitch building and if you recall it

[2:42:59] had triangles on the top. Do you remember? Okay. That got removed. Okay.

[2:43:05] That was historical as ever. The reason why it got removed was is because the

[2:43:09] water sat in there, busted it apart and so forth. And they put the blue stone.

[2:43:14] So I have to be honest with you, when you put stone on the facade, you can use

[2:43:20] many different types of stone, okay? But when you put it on the top, you want the

[2:43:25] stone with the most types of pores. That's why, and I use mine as the

[2:43:30] example, I put up a new piece on mine years ago. They only put it a half inch

[2:43:37] thick. The reason was they couldn't lift it that high. Mine's an inch and a half.

[2:43:43] Okay. Reason is is that it's tougher to break through. And all of a sudden, it

[2:43:48] it weighs 200 and some odd pounds. They couldn't get it up that high. They were

[2:43:52] pulling mules. So, at the end of the day, there is the history, but there is

[2:43:57] what is today. And if our founding fathers knew this, they would also use

[2:44:03] materials. They wouldn't use stone. We've got better materials.

[2:44:07] So, what I'd like you to do is the historical view board is a review board.

[2:44:14] It's there. It's a recommendation. They say no. You guys could say yes. I really

[2:44:19] want you to think about this is that they violated something. They're willing

[2:44:25] to pay the fees and so forth. But I have to be honest with you, if you make them

[2:44:29] put it's their investment. If you make them put a different stone on the top,

[2:44:34] every good mason out there will tell you that blue stone is the best material to

[2:44:39] put on the top. It should also have a ridge on the bottom so when the water

[2:44:43] when the water comes down, it hits a drain ridge that the drip doesn't come

[2:44:48] down the wall and pop the mortar joints. Whether they did that or not, I don't

[2:44:52] know. I I I've just learned all these things. But I have to be honest with you

[2:44:56] guys. We have people making the town look

[2:45:01] better. Okay, it's a stone, believe it or not. That is, would it look cooler

[2:45:06] with the natural stone? Oh, without a doubt. But I'll tell you what, it's got

[2:45:10] to be really, really thick. It's going to weigh a ton. It won't even look app

[2:45:14] propo because the wall is so big. Okay. I only came up here to help them and to

[2:45:20] provide you a guidance. It's not modern. My house has a and and

[2:45:25] and and Julia Julia stone remember your you she had a stone a flag stone on the

[2:45:30] top of her chimney and when the hurricane came by it blew it off

[2:45:34] » the tornado >> the tornado came by it blew it off

[2:45:37] that's why it's got to be a certain uh weight and so forth but at the end of

[2:45:41] the day I just want you to think about that

[2:45:44] that the historical review board they made their decision it's done okay at

[2:45:50] the end of the day I have to be honest with you that is the best stone And you

[2:45:53] could ask other stone people. You can go to Route One stone quarry and so forth.

[2:45:57] That is the best stone for a top of a wall. Two, when the ice and so forth

[2:46:02] comes that it will not crack and so forth. I I'm just trying to help. And

[2:46:06] this other gentleman. >> Hey Joe.

[2:46:08] » Yeah. >> That's So first of all, um, you have it

[2:46:10] right in terms of process, right? It's it's been to Harb. It's now to us. We

[2:46:15] can kick it back to Harb if we want, but >> you're just going to kick it back and

[2:46:18] forth. Yeah. We're not going to do that. >> You have that. You have that right. You

[2:46:20] got that right. And I appreciate your comment and um about the about the stone

[2:46:24] quality. >> It was just to help you. Okay. So, at

[2:46:27] the end of the day, Okay. The other thing is is I was just going to try to

[2:46:30] just help this gentleman. >> You got two minutes.

[2:46:32] » Okay, that's cool. But [laughter] but at the end of the day, I I sorry I don't

[2:46:36] know your name, but I actually thought we were lynching somebody when I went

[2:46:39] down the street. >> The only thing I could say is this. If

[2:46:42] you're going to keep it up, take all the flowers and so forth off of it because

[2:46:46] you're just attracting attention. Okay? But my thing is is that I I I really

[2:46:52] believe that that Chris Chris hit the nail on the head. It's a

[2:46:56] difficult decision. You don't have an you don't have an ordinance.

[2:47:00] You don't have an ordinance. So truthfully, unfortunately, these guys

[2:47:04] don't have an ordinance for EV. And I have to be honest with you,

[2:47:08] I don't know how you buy a car that all of a sudden you have to charge. Nothing

[2:47:12] against you. Don't take it personal. But all of a sudden it's like, where do I

[2:47:16] charge it? You're very lucky. We have a Waw Wa now right down the road. So, the

[2:47:21] only thing I could say is is that charge it full full steam ahead down at

[2:47:27] the road and then you could park your car anywhere and so forth. Is it

[2:47:30] inconvenience? It is, but unfortunately there are only about a handful and and I

[2:47:35] I I went around. There's probably two handfuls of car of houses on this town

[2:47:41] that don't have a driveway and they're your situation. That's equivalent to

[2:47:45] living in Philadelphia. Okay. And at the end of the day, it's

[2:47:50] going back and forth, legal, not legal, and so forth. We don't have an

[2:47:54] ordinance. We have somebody that's handicapped. At the end of the day,

[2:47:59] we can give them a handicapped spot, but at the end, let's be realistic.

[2:48:04] You guys really don't want to have 20 foot cables. And I will let you know

[2:48:08] something. I work for BMW. >> All right, Joe, your time is up. I'll

[2:48:11] give you I'll give you 30 more seconds. >> 30 more seconds.

[2:48:14] If this gentleman changes any of his electrical

[2:48:19] pieces that he buys from the manufacturer, your warranty is null and

[2:48:22] void. Okay? But at the end of the day, I'm just going to let you know

[2:48:25] something. You probably don't want, you know, because you don't have it. You

[2:48:29] don't want these cables hanging out all over on a on a street.

[2:48:34] I It's going to be a disaster. Sorry to bother you guys. Just to thank you, Joe,

[2:48:38] guys. >> Any additional public to be heard?

[2:48:44] All right. Seeing none, I will entertain a motion to adjurnn.

[2:48:48] » So moved. >> Do I have a second?

[2:48:50] » Second. >> Thank you. All those in favor?

[2:48:53] » I >> I.

[2:48:54] » Any nays? Motion passes. >> Thank you everybody.

Council Meeting: March 10, 2026

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