[1:48] Recording in progress.

[2:44] » Okay.

[2:46] What's that up with what I come out and

[2:47] do?

[2:54] » [clears throat]

[2:58] » Channel 17, please start recording.

[3:06] » Welcome to T-MAC this beautiful August

[3:10] 20th, 2026 morning.

[3:12] Um it's 12:30 and

[3:15] uh

[3:17] we would like to go around do

[3:18] introductions and as you're doing your

[3:19] introductions, if you have any conflict

[3:21] of interest, please let us know. I'll go

[3:23] ahead and introduce myself. My name is

[3:25] Beth Provit. I am T-MAC chair.

[3:27] I'll turn to Noah.

[3:28] >> Noah Gordon, T-MAC member.

[3:30] >> Oh, no conflict by the way.

[3:32] >> We're supposed to all say for the

[3:33] record, Noah.

[3:35] That's correct.

[3:37] >> No conflict.

[3:38] >> [laughter]

[3:41] [clears throat]

[3:41] >> I'm Ryan Kohler. I'm a

[3:44] >> People come to me with their ideas.

[3:46] >> contingent T-MAC member, I guess, voting

[3:49] member. Um

[3:50] Yeah, I'm just here kind of as a

[3:54] involved people.

[3:55] Yeah.

[3:57] >> No conflicts.

[3:58] >> Oh.

[4:00] I wish they were.

[4:02] >> [laughter]

[4:02] >> After via public works.

[4:05] >> Joseph Gandy, public works.

[4:09] >> Eric Keller,

[4:10] T-MAC,

[4:11] conflict free.

[4:13] >> No conflicts.

[4:15] >> Hannah Baskin, member.

[4:18] >> I'm the PA on the council.

[4:22] » Okay.

[4:24] >> Good morning. No conflicts.

[4:27] >> I'm Greg McFarland, T-MAC member, and I

[4:29] have no conflicts.

[4:31] >> Uh Brian Hiesler, Provo City

[4:32] Engineering.

[4:33] >> Yeah, I'm sure Provo City Engineering.

[4:36] >> I'm here from Seven Peaks Neighborhood.

[4:39] >> Lynn Fortenberry.

[4:41] >> Evan Lewis.

[4:42] >> Richard Jensen.

[4:43] >> Okay. And

[4:44] >> I'm starting to draw Provo City Power.

[4:47] >> We have um no conflicts.

[4:49] >> Oh.

[4:50] >> Great. Uh Rachel, if you could unmute

[4:51] and just let us know real quick.

[4:55] » Yeah, Rachel Whipple here on the Provo

[4:57] City Council.

[5:00] » Okay. Thank you so much.

[5:02] Okay. Our first item, or I guess our

[5:05] second item, is an action item, and we

[5:07] want to approve the minutes from June

[5:09] 11th.

[5:11] Do we have anybody who would like to

[5:14] approve those minutes?

[5:17] » [clears throat]

[5:21] » Extra ordinary meeting.

[5:24] Minutes. Minutes.

[5:25] Meeting.

[5:26] Can we have a second?

[5:28] >> I second.

[5:28] >> Thank you, Greg. Okay.

[5:30] Uh

[5:31] our first

[5:32] >> You need to [clears throat] take a

[5:33] >> a vote.

[5:34] >> Oh, yeah. Oh, thanks.

[5:37] Is there a

[5:39] Everybody in favor?

[5:40] >> Yep.

[5:42] >> Anybody opposed?

[5:44] Nope. Perfect. Okay. Our first

[5:46] discussion point is East-West

[5:48] accessibility analysis and Grant is

[5:50] going to take it from here.

[5:51] >> All right, KayAnn, can you pull up my

[5:53] slides? Okay.

[5:55] Right, and do you mind if I control

[5:58] things and get a mouse here, too?

[6:03] Okay, so

[6:05] I volunteered to do this a few months

[6:07] ago.

[6:08] I I

[6:09] think that discussions like this

[6:12] East-West accessibility

[6:14] question are

[6:16] uh best informed by some kind of data

[6:19] um and analysis rather than just

[6:22] feelings, although feelings are

[6:24] important.

[6:25] Um and shouldn't be dismissed, but data

[6:27] on top of feelings is is helpful. Uh so,

[6:30] I'm a professor at uh in civil

[6:32] engineering at BYU if you did not

[6:33] already know that. Um

[6:35] and

[6:37] I

[6:38] volunteered to give this presentation to

[6:40] look at a slightly different

[6:42] take on the East-West connection problem

[6:45] that we wanted to talk [clears throat]

[6:46] about this year than the one that that

[6:47] Vern Heberly presented earlier this

[6:49] spring.

[6:50] Um

[6:51] so, just just kind of as a background

[6:53] overview of of the perspective that that

[6:56] I'm going to use in this analysis.

[7:00] Transportation School started this week,

[7:03] right? And BYU's starting soon, you know

[7:05] this. So, we're getting a little bit of

[7:07] education here. Um

[7:09] we'll even do an activity in a minute,

[7:11] too.

[7:12] Transportation systems have to provide

[7:14] two things.

[7:16] They have to provide mobility,

[7:18] which is moving things along. They also

[7:22] have to provide accessibility,

[7:24] which is at the end of what by the time

[7:26] you've gotten there, you have to be able

[7:28] to

[7:29] park or get out of the train or do

[7:32] something, right? There There has to be

[7:33] an activity there at the end of your

[7:35] trip, otherwise there's no point in the

[7:38] transportation system.

[7:40] Um

[7:41] Vern presented about level of service

[7:43] analysis uh uh in his presentation a

[7:46] couple of months ago. Level of service

[7:48] is a is a really useful tool for looking

[7:51] at the quality of a traffic stream.

[7:54] Really is is what it tries to describe.

[7:57] And functionally it is just the ratio

[8:00] it's defined as the ratio between the

[8:02] flow rate on the road and the speed of

[8:05] traffic on the road.

[8:07] Um, it is only a measure of mobility.

[8:10] Right? It just looks at how fast can

[8:13] cars move down this road, how freely can

[8:16] they move down this road. It doesn't try

[8:19] to say anything about the other half of

[8:21] the transportation system, which is this

[8:23] accessibility piece.

[8:26] Um,

[8:28] functionally the difference here, it

[8:30] doesn't matter how long it takes you to

[8:32] drive to Orem if the thing you want to

[8:34] go to is in Provo.

[8:36] Right? My my in-laws live in Fairview.

[8:40] They never experience anything less than

[8:42] a level of service A.

[8:46] But it takes them two hours to go buy

[8:48] groceries

[8:49] because the nearest place to buy

[8:51] groceries is Ephraim. There's a little store in Mount

[8:54] Pleasant, right? But so so they have

[8:56] very high level of service

[8:59] but they actually have very low

[9:02] accessibility which impedes their

[9:04] transportation like quality of life.

[9:07] Right?

[9:08] So you you have to have both. You have

[9:10] to have both a moving road

[9:14] and

[9:16] somewhere to go.

[9:17] And if you don't have both of those

[9:19] things, then the transportation system

[9:21] feels

[9:22] like it's not working for you.

[9:25] Um,

[9:27] there are ways to measure this

[9:28] accessibility and there are different

[9:30] ways of doing it. A simple one that we

[9:32] see a lot is well, how many jobs can I

[9:34] reach from my home within 20 minutes or

[9:37] 40 minutes.

[9:39] And you can, you know, put a point on a

[9:41] map, draw a line of how far away you can

[9:43] get in 40 minutes, count up the number

[9:46] of jobs in that space, and that's how

[9:48] you can make your measurement.

[9:50] Uh how many customers live within 10

[9:51] miles of my store? This is something

[9:53] that uh

[9:54] companies do all the time when they're

[9:55] trying to

[9:57] um find you know, do should we put in a

[10:00] new store somewhere? How many customers

[10:02] will be within

[10:03] uh my catchment range? Uh how far away

[10:06] is the nearest grocery store? How far do

[10:08] I have to go to get to the thing I want

[10:09] to do? And then just uh as a as a

[10:12] general metric, how much total time do

[10:14] you spend traveling each day?

[10:16] You know, assuming that the places

[10:18] you're going to are the places you want

[10:19] to go to,

[10:20] how much total time do you spend

[10:21] traveling? That is itself an

[10:23] accessibility metric more than just a

[10:25] mobility one.

[10:27] So now is where is when we'll do our

[10:29] little activity. In front of you, you've

[10:32] got a colorful little diagram. It's made

[10:34] by professors in Germany. So the

[10:38] distance is in meters. Just use time,

[10:41] right? Just if if you don't know how how

[10:43] far a meter is, you don't have to. But

[10:45] just take a couple minutes

[10:47] and go through with the your pencil or a

[10:49] pen and write down a few places you go

[10:53] to regularly and how far away from your

[10:56] home you wish they were.

[10:58] Okay, so this could be either what

[10:59] you're doing now if you like it or

[11:01] something better than what you're doing

[11:03] now. We'll just take a couple minutes

[11:05] for you to sort of work through this.

[11:08] Um and get an idea for this.

[11:11] >> Can we keep this?

[11:12] As well again?

[11:12] >> Yeah.

[11:15] Did anyone not get the sheet, the colorful sheet? I'm

[11:21] Officer, would you like to participate

[11:22] in this activity?

[11:24] >> [laughter]

[11:29] » So this is how far we wish things were.

[11:31] >> Yeah.

[11:31] >> So what you're you're basically asking

[11:33] what are the things that we wish were

[11:34] close to us.

[11:35] >> Yeah. Or, you know, it it's like, "Okay,

[11:37] I I go to a grocery store a lot.

[11:39] I wish that my grocery store that I

[11:41] preferred was

[11:43] 10 minutes away from me."

[11:44] Whatever.

[11:48] » You just said concert venue. That's very

[11:50] funny.

[11:53] » How far away would you like the concert

[11:54] venue to be, Councilwoman?

[11:55] >> I just thought of one.

[11:57] I just like a really crazy one and I'm

[11:58] like,

[11:59] "Oh."

[12:01] Man, I just thought of A CONCERT

[12:02] VENUE.

[12:03] >> [laughter]

[12:05] >> NOT AN AGENDA ITEM TODAY.

[12:08] >> That's funny.

[12:10] I think of the things I go to a lot,

[12:11] like

[12:13] Is your valley a lot?

[12:14] >> Yes, quite honestly, it's

[12:19] I like where I live versus where things

[12:21] are, so

[12:22] >> Yeah, well, then then describe your day.

[12:24] Describe Describe what you do now.

[12:37] » [clears throat]

[12:44] » Well, what you're saying is that you

[12:45] can't picture things you're making a

[12:47] You're you're making yourself a big

[12:48] city.

[12:49] You're making feel Usually one thing

[12:51] goes with another and it's

[12:52] ramifications, so

[12:54] >> Especially, yeah.

[12:56] And so, you know, there may be different

[12:57] levels of things, right? Like, maybe you

[12:59] want your primary care physician to be

[13:01] closer to you, but you wouldn't mind

[13:03] driving a further distance to get

[13:05] [clears throat] to

[13:06] specialist or a major

[13:08] uh medical center or something like

[13:10] that.

[13:19] » You could also think, "I would really

[13:20] love to

[13:21] you know, be able to get to Costco

[13:23] quickly, but I don't want to live

[13:25] immediately next door to a Costco.

[13:27] >> A high school?

[13:28] >> Yes, that's right.

[13:33] Like, you know, teenagers are delightful

[13:35] one-on-one

[13:36] and in a group they are

[13:38] really difficult.

[13:40] >> [laughter]

[13:43] » All right, I'll give you just another

[13:44] couple minutes to sort of

[13:47] think through this.

[13:50] is not an exam. I'm not actually

[13:51] collecting going to collect your data.

[13:53] You're welcome to go.

[13:55] Uh give this to your mother and put it

[13:56] on her fridge.

[13:58] Um

[14:33] Okay.

[14:34] So, you probably got a an idea of sort

[14:36] of how this would look for you.

[14:39] Um

[14:41] Some things you want closer, some things

[14:42] you don't mind being further away.

[14:45] But, the idea is you have some kind of

[14:46] space

[14:48] that you would like to be able to

[14:50] perform your daily life, right? It

[14:52] doesn't mean you don't want to travel

[14:53] Europe. Doesn't mean you don't want to

[14:55] go to Salt Lake occasionally. But, if

[14:57] you go to Salt Lake for daily

[14:58] activities,

[15:00] maybe that wears down on you. Um or

[15:02] maybe you commute there and that's okay, right? So, there there This

[15:05] is the idea here.

[15:07] Okay.

[15:08] So, now now with that background,

[15:11] this this idea here is sort of at the

[15:14] core of this analysis that I've done.

[15:17] And this analysis is just an

[15:18] illustration of an analysis that can be

[15:21] done. I don't intend that this be the

[15:24] final word on this. I don't intend that

[15:26] this be like actual data or be used for

[15:28] actual decision-making. This is just an

[15:31] illustration.

[15:33] Uh so what I what did I do in this

[15:34] project? Well, I said, "Let's gather

[15:36] some destinations that people might want

[15:38] to go to

[15:40] and decide some threshold about what I

[15:42] think they should be able to travel to

[15:44] that distance."

[15:46] And it's just asserted we could collect

[15:47] the data we could collect data like this

[15:48] for everyone in Provo and get more

[15:50] realistic uh

[15:52] curves and and uh important scales, but

[15:55] we didn't do that here. I just asserted

[15:57] everything.

[15:58] Um based on that, we can look at which

[16:01] neighborhoods have good access and bad

[16:03] access to various kinds of destinations.

[16:08] And then,

[16:09] we can look at changes that we make to

[16:11] the roadway network or to the land use

[16:14] in Provo and see how that affects the

[16:17] accessibility of these neighborhoods.

[16:20] By the way, feel free to interrupt me at

[16:21] any point if if something is unclear or

[16:23] if you just want to like dig in deeper

[16:25] on an idea.

[16:26] Um

[16:27] I don't have a particular timeline for

[16:30] how fast we get through this. So, you

[16:32] want if you want to stop me, it's okay.

[16:34] So, the points of interest that I picked

[16:35] for this I I chose elementary schools in

[16:38] Provo. These are Provo School District

[16:39] schools.

[16:40] Uh I excluded charter schools although

[16:42] they'll show up on the map. I didn't

[16:43] include them. I said you should be able

[16:44] to get to an elementary school in 5

[16:46] minutes. Transportation nodes, you

[16:47] should be able to get to these within 15

[16:49] minutes. Included I-15 interchanges and

[16:52] FrontRunner stations.

[16:53] Uh retail stores, 10 minutes and grocery

[16:56] stores, 10 minutes and parks, 5 minutes.

[16:59] >> I see multiple not getting there too.

[17:01] >> Yeah, that's right.

[17:05] Uh so I pulled all these points from

[17:06] OpenStreetMap or a couple that I made on

[17:08] uh I made some apps on my own.

[17:11] Uh all right, so here's

[17:13] So, these are the transportation nodes

[17:16] that I say you should be able to get to

[17:18] as many of these as possible in 15

[17:19] minutes.

[17:21] Here are our grocery stores. This data

[17:23] is not perfect because I just scraped it

[17:25] from OpenStreetMap.

[17:26] There is a Alliance and Fence Supply

[17:28] that someone has put in as a grocery

[17:29] store.

[17:30] >> [laughter]

[17:31] >> But, you know what? That's fine because

[17:33] there's a Target here where people can

[17:34] buy some groceries that's not on the

[17:35] map. So, this data is not perfect.

[17:38] Here are parks.

[17:40] There are a lot of retail stores.

[17:41] Basically, anything where they sell

[17:42] goods is a retail.

[17:43] Um and then here again, the schools,

[17:45] although I've excluded like these

[17:48] charter schools and high schools from

[17:49] the actual analysis data.

[17:52] Uh and like for the schools and

[17:54] transportation, we just did what's in

[17:55] Provo. For the retail, I picked all of

[17:57] Utah County.

[17:59] Uh

[17:59] but functionally, people can't get there

[18:01] in 10 minutes. So,

[18:03] uh

[18:04] This is This is the data points of

[18:06] interest that we're looking at.

[18:09] Okay, for the highway network, I used

[18:11] the Wasatch Front Travel Demand Model

[18:12] network calibrated for their 2019 base

[18:15] scenario.

[18:16] So, it's not the most recent one, but

[18:17] it's the one I had most easily

[18:19] available.

[18:20] Um and I'm using the congested PM travel

[18:23] times.

[18:25] So,

[18:26] uh

[18:27] I've colored these links by level of

[18:29] service.

[18:30] So, dark green means the link has a

[18:33] level of service A. Red means it has a

[18:35] level of service E or F.

[18:37] Uh this road is not actually operating

[18:39] at level of service F.

[18:41] What it is is the travel model dumps all

[18:43] of BYU's activity on these two roads.

[18:46] And so, it there's some

[18:48] aggregation problems that happen in the

[18:51] network from that. But, overall, it's a

[18:53] decent network for just getting a skim

[18:56] of travel times.

[18:58] Um Pros of this, I can use congested

[19:00] travel times and I can adjust how fast

[19:03] the road is going. The cons of this, it

[19:05] does not have every road in it, right?

[19:06] It's just You can see the roads that are

[19:08] included. It's just kind of high

[19:09] capacity facilities. We're missing all

[19:12] the uh

[19:13] like most Some collectors are in it,

[19:15] some are not, and all the local roads

[19:17] are in it.

[19:17] >> So, this data is 2019 [clears throat]

[19:19] data. It's not like MAG's projected

[19:22] forward data or anything like

[19:23] >> No, this is the 2019 calibration data.

[19:25] >> base year

[19:26] >> Yeah, so they made it in 2022 using data

[19:29] that had been collected pre-pandemic.

[19:33] Um

[19:34] So, from that network, I can drop a

[19:35] point anywhere in space and measure how

[19:39] far that person can get in the PM peak

[19:42] hour uh within these bands, right? So, a

[19:46] point dropped in this neighborhood here,

[19:47] right at the mouth of the canyon, can

[19:49] get to this blue area in 5 minutes, the

[19:51] yellow area in 10, and the red area in

[19:53] 20, according to the travel model. Your

[19:55] mileage may vary.

[19:57] Yeah, it's like right at the mouth of

[19:58] Provo Canyon there. Well, you can zoom

[20:00] in. Where is this person?

[20:02] Yeah.

[20:03] >> Riverwoods

[20:03] >> Yeah, Riverwoods. The Riverwoods is

[20:05] right here, kind of up on the hill

[20:07] there. I just picked this point at

[20:09] random to illustrate

[20:10] Um

[20:12] This is not perfect, right? It looks for

[20:13] the nearest link in the network, so

[20:15] there's some distortion that happens

[20:17] if the nearest link in the network

[20:19] happens to be I-15,

[20:22] then that means that they're stuck on a

[20:23] one-way link and have to go to the next

[20:25] exit before they can get back going the

[20:27] other way.

[20:28] I didn't like force them to pick the

[20:30] nearest two-way link, but you know, so

[20:32] there's a little bit of error that comes

[20:34] from that. But again, this is just for

[20:35] illustration.

[20:37] Okay, so let's look at how things are

[20:39] currently in Provo with these different

[20:40] ideas.

[20:42] So, here's my grocery stores map.

[20:44] The The darker the household points,

[20:47] I I sampled a synthetic household that a

[20:51] synthetic population

[20:52] at the household level pinned to all the

[20:55] parcels in Provo, basically. This I'm

[20:57] just showing a sample of points on the

[20:58] map here.

[20:59] But the darker the the circle, the more

[21:02] grocery stores the person can access

[21:04] within the the 10-minute band.

[21:07] So, access to grocery stores is pretty

[21:08] good if you live close to Orem because

[21:11] that's where a lot of the the the stores

[21:13] are.

[21:14] Um it's decent in Central Provo. Again,

[21:16] there's this distortion here because

[21:18] these people can get to stuff in

[21:19] Springville cuz it puts them straight

[21:20] onto I-15.

[21:21] Um and access to grocery stores is is

[21:24] fairly poor in Slate Canyon, which

[21:27] you would not know. You would expect.

[21:30] >> Surprise, right?

[21:31] >> Yep. Uh elementary schools.

[21:33] Again, this is this is

[21:35] You have great uh access to elementary

[21:37] schools in Central Provo

[21:39] because there are a lot of schools there

[21:40] and you can get to lots of them in

[21:42] different directions. Uh if you're on

[21:44] the edges of the city, your access is

[21:46] going down.

[21:48] The number of elementary schools you get

[21:49] to might not be the best measure because

[21:51] most people only need to get to one.

[21:53] Uh

[21:54] >> I'm going to guess they're they're all

[21:55] by one.

[21:55] >> They're all by one, right? And so maybe what we should do with this

[21:59] analysis instead of counting how many

[22:01] can you get to in 5 minutes, can you get

[22:03] to one in 5 minutes?

[22:05] >> That's right.

[22:05] >> But

[22:06] that's that again is is something you

[22:08] can you can choose to do.

[22:10] Uh transport nodes.

[22:13] Uh Edgemont and Tree Streets

[22:14] neighborhood have pretty poor access to

[22:17] transport nodes relative to the rest of

[22:19] the city, which

[22:20] >> Right.

[22:21] >> Having grown up there, you living there

[22:22] now, yeah, we we get we get that idea.

[22:25] But if you live over here uh in in the

[22:27] west part of Provo, you actually have

[22:29] exceptional access to transport nodes

[22:31] cuz that's where the transport nodes

[22:32] are.

[22:35] So, what we can do is we can add all

[22:36] these together and I'm going to move

[22:38] this a little bit so you can see the

[22:39] rest of my equation. Um

[22:42] we can add up all of these different

[22:45] categories. So, grocery stores, parks,

[22:46] trails, uh

[22:49] transport nodes, schools, and retail

[22:51] things,

[22:52] multiply them by this weight.

[22:55] I just picked the weights to kind of

[22:57] give a number.

[22:58] Um

[23:00] the weight on these retail outlets is

[23:02] really small because a lot of people can

[23:03] reach hundreds of retail outlets within

[23:06] a 15-minute band.

[23:08] So, we've kind of scaled that one down.

[23:10] We've really scaled up the transport

[23:12] nodes and schools. Yeah, we could fight

[23:14] about what what weights these should

[23:16] get, but that's a discussion for later.

[23:22] Okay. So, that's our baseline.

[23:25] Now, [clears throat] we can change the

[23:27] roadway network or change the land use

[23:30] to see how changes to these roads would make a difference.

[23:34] And so, I've got three roads.

[23:36] I couldn't add new roads in this

[23:38] analysis. I can only change the roads

[23:41] that were existing. That doesn't mean

[23:42] you couldn't,

[23:44] but I didn't here. Um so, 2200 North

[23:48] between University Parkway and Timpview

[23:49] Drive,

[23:50] 700-800 roads between Geneva Road and

[23:52] 900 East, and Center Street between

[23:55] Geneva Road and 900 East.

[23:57] I took these three east-west corridors

[23:59] that kind of run across the city that

[24:01] we've talked about a lot, and we can

[24:03] make changes to them.

[24:05] So, 2200 North, this is how

[24:08] accessibility would change if the entire

[24:11] road operated at free-flow speed

[24:14] in the uh PM peak hour.

[24:17] So, up here in the tree streets in Oak

[24:20] Hills,

[24:21] there this person's composite access

[24:24] score increases by 2.6%

[24:29] if we take them from the level of

[24:31] service

[24:32] B that they're operating at now and move

[24:34] them to a level of service A.

[24:36] So, there there's a small increase in

[24:38] accessibility.

[24:40] Of course, this this is not equally

[24:41] distributed across all types, right?

[24:45] >> we say that road is running at C now?

[24:47] >> At peak time.

[24:47] >> Yeah, what was your what was your show

[24:49] what was the rating you had? It was like

[24:51] It was C or D, right?

[24:52] >> I think it was level of service D or E,

[24:55] yeah,

[24:56] at PM peak hour.

[24:57] >> Yeah, it's not C.

[24:58] >> Now, this this so that's

[25:00] >> data. This is a few years old, so there

[25:02] may be a discrepancy there, right? So

[25:04] the baseline here may not be what the

[25:06] baseline is now,

[25:08] but this is if you make it totally free

[25:11] flow. This is how accessibility would

[25:13] change, and this is whose accessibility

[25:16] would change.

[25:16] >> So when you point out a 2.6% for that

[25:19] one household or that one So

[25:22] aggregately, it I mean, that's just for

[25:25] that one

[25:26] >> That's just for that one household. And

[25:27] we'll look at the aggregate score later.

[25:29] And when I say this 2.6, this is across

[25:31] all of the weighted things. We could

[25:34] pick just transport nodes.

[25:37] Right? So making this road operate at

[25:39] free flow speed takes this cluster of

[25:42] homes

[25:43] that are close to the mouth of Rock

[25:45] Canyon and effectively gives them access

[25:47] to one more transportation node within

[25:49] that 15-minute threshold.

[25:51] >> 10 houses?

[25:52] Right? So it's it's it's a So

[25:55] really small impact for a very small

[25:58] group of people.

[25:59] Yeah.

[26:00] >> I'm sorry if you've already covered

[26:01] this, but when you say taking it to a

[26:02] free flow speed, are we talking like

[26:05] freeway or

[26:06] >> No, this would be

[26:07] >> post time

[26:07] >> uncongested, right? So it's it's faster

[26:10] than the posted speed limit. I think

[26:12] it's like speed limit plus five is what

[26:14] the free flow speed is set at.

[26:16] >> And did you talk about

[26:17] what it would take to accomplish that or

[26:18] not?

[26:19] >> No.

[26:20] one asked.

[26:21] >> Yeah.

[26:23] » [clears throat]

[26:23] >> Okay.

[26:24] Uh parks, right? There's here a little

[26:26] bit more

[26:27] uh benefit is is seen with a few oh a

[26:31] bit of a wider spread, right? These

[26:33] people can now get to some of the parks

[26:35] in Northeast Provo faster. These people

[26:37] can get to some of the parks in West

[26:39] Provo faster.

[26:40] Um

[26:42] grocery stores,

[26:44] very small benefit for some people in in Wymount.

[26:48] Uh

[26:49] fairly decent uh spread, but a small

[26:53] benefit for, um,

[26:55] retail stores, right? So, this this is

[26:57] what we can look at.

[26:59] On the other hand, we can also look at

[27:01] what happens if we make this road, uh,

[27:04] so there's a 1.1 volume capacity ratio.

[27:08] So, this is definitely into the F range.

[27:11] Um, and this is who would be

[27:14] hurt by that. Right? So, it's a much

[27:18] different proposition. It's a it's a

[27:20] wider spread. It's a deeper spread. So,

[27:23] this these people up in Oak Hills lose

[27:25] 13, 14% of their existing accessibility

[27:29] if that road suddenly magically becomes

[27:31] level service F.

[27:34] Yeah, that's right.

[27:36] >> Same day.

[27:37] >> So, this this is not our normal

[27:38] situation. This is well beyond this is

[27:40] like crawling traffic.

[27:43] That's right.

[27:45] But, the difference between a D and an F

[27:46] is pretty substantial. It's like

[27:51] If you think of it as a grade, an A and

[27:53] a B are 10% apart. A D and an E are 10%

[27:55] apart. But, in terms of like volume

[27:58] delay, a D and an F is like twice as bad

[28:00] as a D, and a D is like 5% worse than an

[28:03] A. Like, it's it's it's it's not a

[28:05] linear change.

[28:09] Um,

[28:10] transportation notes. Yeah, so a lot So,

[28:13] people living along this corridor would

[28:16] see a decrease in their ability to get

[28:17] to transportation as with these people

[28:19] up, uh, near the mouth of Rock Canyon.

[28:23] Um,

[28:24] we can click through a few of these, but

[28:25] we'll just go on to the next one.

[28:27] So, this is 800 700 North. We can do the

[28:29] same thing. Make that road operate at

[28:31] free flow speed.

[28:32] Uh, so this is five over the speed limit

[28:34] effectively for the whole length of the

[28:36] road.

[28:37] Um,

[28:38] and I'm treating this as one road. In

[28:40] reality, of course, you'd have to do

[28:41] some kind of thing, but we don't have

[28:42] intersection delay in this in this

[28:44] network. So, people just kind of mesh

[28:47] through traffic signals, so we don't

[28:48] worry about that. Yeah.

[28:49] >> Quick question. So, I guess part of it

[28:51] was the light. So, when you say free

[28:53] flow, that's assuming they get all

[28:54] greens?

[28:54] >> It's assuming that yeah, they can move

[28:56] perfectly.

[28:56] >> And then, um you're saying five above.

[29:00] Um I know with 2200, that's basically

[29:02] what people are driving already, but I

[29:04] think it's unintended.

[29:05] >> It would be unintended. Yeah. So,

[29:06] there'd be no vehicles.

[29:07] >> So, there wouldn't be a backup at the

[29:08] light or anything.

[29:10] >> That's right.

[29:12] And again, this this this network is

[29:14] aimed at a regional planning. It's not

[29:16] aimed at like microscopic traffic delay.

[29:20] So, it doesn't have like left turn

[29:22] pockets or permitted signals or things

[29:24] like that. It's just

[29:25] traffic kind of flows along it.

[29:27] >> And this is still based all off of 2019

[29:30] data.

[29:31] >> It's It's relative to a 2019 calibration

[29:33] baseline.

[29:35] So,

[29:35] >> 7800

[29:36] >> delay is probably

[29:38] 3% higher than it used to. You know,

[29:40] it's it's not radically different. It's

[29:42] not like I went back to the 1980s.

[29:44] >> Yeah.

[29:45] >> Um

[29:47] Okay, so yeah, with 7800 North,

[29:49] here we see the benefits spread across a

[29:51] much wider area of the city.

[29:54] Um and some some of the benefits are are fairly big, especially for the

[29:59] people who live along it.

[30:01] Um

[30:02] and you know, they're they're different

[30:04] for different things, right? So, parks,

[30:06] for schools,

[30:08] retail, but again, the benefits are

[30:10] mostly for

[30:12] you know, people across core of the

[30:13] city.

[30:14] We make this road operate at level of

[30:16] service F.

[30:18] It's this This benefit is much more

[30:20] symmetrical than the other one.

[30:22] So, with 2200 North,

[30:26] the making it really bad hurts a lot of

[30:29] people, and making it better helps a

[30:31] couple,

[30:32] but here it's it's much more

[30:34] symmetrical in terms of its effect and

[30:36] in terms of the number of people.

[30:38] >> Good corridor.

[30:39] >> That's right.

[30:41] Um

[30:42] And the last road scenario is Center

[30:44] Street where because I couldn't do the

[30:47] free flow speed because these are 15

[30:48] miles an hour, I just set the whole road

[30:50] to 30 miles an hour

[30:52] uh which is which means that some people

[30:54] out here actually see a decrease because

[30:57] that makes this road these links a

[30:59] little bit slower than the free flows in

[31:02] the existing condition.

[31:03] So, this this gets up Most people have a

[31:06] positive benefit. Some people actually

[31:08] have a negative benefit if you make

[31:10] that whole corridor 30 miles an hour. I

[31:12] could have cranked it up to 40 to get

[31:14] rid of that, but that would have been a

[31:15] >> [laughter]

[31:17] >> So, but again, you you see some some of

[31:19] the same basic issues like

[31:22] fairly large benefits for a few people

[31:26] some small benefits for a lot of people

[31:28] spread across mostly the core of of

[31:31] Provo. Yes.

[31:34] Uh

[31:35] Transportation notes, if you did this,

[31:37] right? You get a big band of people who

[31:39] benefit here from being able to get to

[31:41] One more.

[31:42] It doesn't really change anything for

[31:44] people who live in this area.

[31:46] And then for people who live up in the

[31:47] tree streets up hills, you get to

[31:49] another

[31:50] So.

[31:51] Um

[31:52] But yeah, so in this mid-range, so if

[31:54] you're close enough to I-15, you didn't

[31:55] see any benefit.

[31:57] If you're just at the right distance

[31:59] away, you get a bit of a benefit, but if

[32:00] you're in here, it doesn't really help

[32:02] you more than it used to.

[32:04] If you consider this as 15 in, 16 out.

[32:08] Not really help people see things, but that's that's how this analysis is.

[32:14] Uh and then we could make it slower,

[32:16] make it level service F and

[32:19] Okay.

[32:23] The other benefit of this analysis or

[32:24] this way of analyzing things is that you

[32:27] can also change the land use. You can

[32:29] change the points of interest and look

[32:32] at how that makes an effect.

[32:35] Because again, transportation is not

[32:36] just about the roads and the trains and

[32:38] the bike paths. It's also about the

[32:40] places people need to use those things

[32:42] to get to.

[32:44] So, in this scenario, I added three

[32:45] grocery stores to Provo unilaterally.

[32:48] I said there'll be one west of Center

[32:50] what on Center Street west of the

[32:52] freeway. I said there'll be one on 900

[32:54] East where the Vasa is that used to be a

[32:56] grocery store and is has been a gym

[32:59] in various forms for a while and on

[33:02] State Street in Slate Canyon.

[33:04] >> You picked like the three biggest

[33:05] >> Yeah. I I I tried to maximize the

[33:08] appearance of the That's right. But, you

[33:10] know, if if you put in these grocery

[33:11] stores,

[33:12] it doesn't affect anybody's ability to

[33:14] get to a park, right? Not at all.

[33:18] But, it affects a lot of people's

[33:19] ability to get to an additional grocery

[33:21] store within that 10 min.

[33:23] And it's a it's a pretty big jump,

[33:25] right? This person used to be able to

[33:27] get to four, now they get to five.

[33:29] That's a

[33:30] 20% increase.

[33:32] Um and with the waiting we used,

[33:36] there's actually a pretty big

[33:38] benefit across the entire city from

[33:41] these grocery stores. And then again, we

[33:43] haven't changed anything about the

[33:44] roadway network. We've just given an

[33:47] additional point of interest.

[33:49] Three additional points of it.

[33:52] So, we can look at these in aggregate,

[33:54] all our scenarios together. The way to

[33:57] read this chart

[33:58] is

[34:00] loss on the left mean that people's

[34:02] accessibility is going down.

[34:04] Loss on the right mean that their

[34:06] accessibility is going up.

[34:08] Um the colors indicate what kind of

[34:11] score it is with this composite thing

[34:14] sort of this pale green and like grocery

[34:17] stores being orange.

[34:19] The bars indicate the spread of that

[34:22] benefit. Like some people get a little,

[34:23] some people get a lot. And

[34:26] um

[34:27] the size of the dot indicates the

[34:29] percentage of Provo residents who would

[34:33] see that average benefit.

[34:35] This is the bigger the dot, the more

[34:37] people benefit from it,

[34:39] >> [music]

[34:39] >> and the further to the right, the more

[34:42] benefits they get.

[34:45] And so, in all of these scenarios,

[34:47] the biggest and the the most or the

[34:51] largest composite benefit and the one

[34:52] that goes to the most people is actually

[34:55] the grocery store scenario.

[34:57] Adding three grocery stores would do

[34:59] more for Provo than making all of our

[35:01] roads free flow speed.

[35:03] Or at least these any of these East-West

[35:05] corridors. We could look at them

[35:07] together, we could look at other roads,

[35:09] like we could we could play with these

[35:11] things.

[35:12] We could also decide that our grocery

[35:14] stores are weighted too heavily in this

[35:15] analysis, let's let's change some other

[35:17] things and these numbers would change.

[35:21] Again, this is not like

[35:24] an analysis that should now be used in

[35:26] policy making, right? We we would need

[35:28] to go through and figure out what the

[35:31] weights are, what the

[35:33] >> weights? Was it 0.3? Your highest

[35:35] weighting was for grade schools.

[35:36] >> Yeah, grade schools are 0.5. I think

[35:38] grocery stores are 0.2.

[35:40] >> It wasn't incredibly high.

[35:40] right?

[35:43] >> Conceptually, it's like if you put the

[35:44] things people go to closer to them, you

[35:46] don't need as much traffic.

[35:48] >> That's exactly right.

[35:50] Um especially when you when you think of

[35:52] a place like Costco,

[35:54] right? You get you get the people from

[35:56] traveling from all the way out here on

[35:58] the road,

[35:59] plus the people traveling from here on

[36:01] the road, plus the people traveling from

[36:03] here, and all the traffic stacks up on

[36:05] the roadway.

[36:07] Whereas if you have another thing for them to go

[36:11] to,

[36:12] then the the additive traffic problem

[36:15] gets less important.

[36:19] >> All of this is mobility or not mobility,

[36:21] it's accessibility. It's not really

[36:22] measuring mobility, right?

[36:24] >> That's right.

[36:24] >> So, like if you say 15 minutes to the

[36:26] freeway, but somebody lives an eighth of

[36:29] a mile off the freeway, but they have to

[36:30] drive parallel to the freeway for 15

[36:32] minutes to get on, they're unhappy,

[36:34] right?

[36:35] >> That's right.

[36:36] >> So even though it looks good here, it's

[36:38] like that's

[36:40] people aren't getting a like like if you

[36:42] say, "Okay, if you're within 15 minutes,

[36:44] that's great." But if you're only a

[36:45] block away and it takes you 15 minutes

[36:47] to get there, you're mad.

[36:48] >> Now in this in this case, because we're

[36:50] using the network path travel time, it

[36:53] would get how far the way they are on

[36:55] the network, not how far away they are

[36:57] in space.

[36:58] Right?

[36:58] >> Yeah.

[36:59] >> Unless they happen to live immediately

[37:01] next to the freeway, in which case they

[37:03] might this method might make them use

[37:05] the freeway to get there.

[37:06] >> I would love to see freeway on there.

[37:10] » Yeah, the freeway specifically. Yeah.

[37:14] » Yeah, I mean it also depend on your

[37:16] mobility and in what form of traffic you

[37:18] want. Like if if you want to if you want

[37:19] to walk, what is a 15-minute walking

[37:22] time versus driving time versus biking

[37:24] time?

[37:25] >> Yeah, so so looking at the limitations,

[37:27] right? Like we could talk about which

[37:29] POIs are important to include and which

[37:31] ones are not.

[37:32] Right? Calling all retail stores the

[37:33] same thing is probably not correct.

[37:36] Um calling all grocery stores the same

[37:37] thing is also probably not correct,

[37:39] right? The Hilleman Halls Creamery shows

[37:41] up in this data set

[37:43] uh in the same form that Harmon's does,

[37:46] right? And that that's not correct.

[37:48] >> And like I think accessibility to

[37:49] employment is really difficult to show

[37:51] because a lot of people, you know, they

[37:52] have to drive out of town to go to work.

[37:54] >> right.

[37:55] >> And where are they going? It's like you

[37:56] have to look at the max.

[37:57] >> But it's also it's also tricky though

[37:58] because like

[38:00] yeah, you you have to look at a wider

[38:02] scale, but people only have like one or

[38:04] two jobs, right? And so getting like

[38:07] having access to 60,000 jobs within 30

[38:09] minutes

[38:10] >> And everybody specializes.

[38:12] >> care about your own job.

[38:13] >> Not all jobs are equal. All jobs are

[38:15] very unequal, right?

[38:16] >> Well, then we also have to realize that

[38:18] each person or family has a choice

[38:21] >> Yeah.

[38:22] >> of where they're wanting to live versus

[38:23] where they I mean there's some

[38:24] affordability issues there, too, but it

[38:26] is a matter of I like this neighborhood.

[38:28] >> Right.

[38:29] >> in this neighborhood, so that eliminates

[38:30] or that immediately

[38:32] limits exactly what their mobility is,

[38:34] right? For instance, if they're

[38:35] efficient.

[38:36] >> So, there is a matter of choice of

[38:38] individuals as well.

[38:40] >> Yeah, I mean we're everyone here is

[38:41] choosing in the form of constraints and things like that. Um another big one

[38:45] is these are all hypothetical trips.

[38:47] This gets to your point about the the

[38:48] employment thing, right? This is what

[38:51] you could do, not what you were actually

[38:53] doing.

[38:54] Um the activity-based models that WFRC

[38:57] is working on would allow us to do that

[38:59] kind of thing, where we look at a

[39:01] synthetic person, look at their modeled

[39:04] work location, and figure

[39:06] [clears throat] out how changes to the

[39:07] network would help would help or hurt

[39:09] them on their specific daily trips.

[39:12] Um that's that's a

[39:14] further step that requires more complex

[39:16] tools than I can crunch a week.

[39:19] Um

[39:19] but

[39:21] So, yeah, there's a lot of limitations

[39:22] in this analysis.

[39:24] There are a lot of limitations in level

[39:26] of service analysis, as well, right? But

[39:28] I think I think pairing these two

[39:30] analyses together

[39:32] helps get helps us get a better picture

[39:35] of well, what who would be who would

[39:37] benefit, who would pay,

[39:39] what would be the benefits be, how

[39:41] widespread they would be, um and I think

[39:44] doing this kind of analysis for these

[39:46] kinds of east-west corridor discussions

[39:49] would help Provo City make better

[39:50] decisions

[39:52] than just oh, this road's really bad,

[39:54] let's make it wider.

[39:57] » If we were to settle on one of the three

[40:00] east-west corridors

[40:03] without the grocery stores, I mean cuz I get what you're saying, which is

[40:07] you put people

[40:08] what they want, where they're wanting to

[40:10] go close to them, they don't need to be

[40:12] on the network, but let's pretend that

[40:14] we don't get those three grocery stores.

[40:17] >> Then which of those three corridors

[40:19] comes out kind of as the leader that

[40:22] gives the biggest benefit?

[40:24] >> Well, it it 20

[40:25] >> other things being, you know, just based

[40:27] on your

[40:27] >> Yeah, so if you look at this composite

[40:29] Well, if you look at the composite

[40:30] score,

[40:31] Center Street and and 800 North are

[40:34] pretty close.

[40:35] Um there's a big

[40:37] They both have kind of a wide spread,

[40:38] right?

[40:40] Um if you were if your job was we want

[40:42] to get people to transportation faster,

[40:45] then 800 North would definitely be the

[40:47] best.

[40:49] Um

[40:50] but you know, some people would benefit

[40:51] a lot and some people would not benefit

[40:53] as much as the average of Center Street.

[41:01] I don't know that any of these can

[41:03] happen exactly as we put it, right?

[41:09] It would be a huge issue. But I mean, if you made if you made 100 North

[41:13] free flow speed and tied it in fast to

[41:16] Center Street, it would effectively be

[41:19] the same.

[41:21] » So if I'm understanding right,

[41:24] the

[41:25] according to this analysis, the thing

[41:26] that would actually have the largest

[41:27] impact on

[41:29] would be having more groceries.

[41:31] >> Yeah, or yeah.

[41:34] >> [laughter]

[41:36] » No, but what I think is interesting is

[41:38] the city's not in the business of

[41:39] building groceries.

[41:40] So I constantly on Facebook on the Provo

[41:43] pages people saying, you know, the city

[41:44] needs to give us a Westside grocery.

[41:46] Well, the city doesn't The city's not

[41:48] Kroger.

[41:49] So but what is interesting is while the

[41:51] city isn't in the business of building

[41:52] grocery stores, cities all over the

[41:54] country have been in the business of

[41:56] creating subsidies for larger

[41:59] further space apart

[42:01] mega retail grocery and then things for

[42:04] years. And that's what's created this

[42:05] problem. Is that Provo used to be dotted

[42:09] with neighborhood grocery stores. My my

[42:11] business my building was a grocery

[42:12] store, and there was one one block away.

[42:14] And I just think that were groceries

[42:16] more expensive than in Walmart?

[42:19] Probably. But, how much are we paying

[42:20] for road construction, for road

[42:22] widening, for gas, for travel time?

[42:24] Like, it doesn't make sense. So, while

[42:26] the cities, I think, have created this

[42:28] problem,

[42:30] the cities, unless they want to go into

[42:31] the grocery business, can't fix it.

[42:34] >> It's interesting you mentioned the west

[42:36] side and they have such great flow and

[42:38] everything because there aren't that

[42:40] many people.

[42:41] The grocery stores don't want to go

[42:42] there cuz there's not enough people.

[42:43] Like, the same thing is

[42:45] Yeah. And you mentioned the incentives

[42:48] and stuff. Provo has been taking a poll

[42:51] last 5 years.

[42:52] They email me. So, it's just people who

[42:53] are what Whatever it comes up, it's for

[42:55] 5 years it come up a lot.

[42:58] And I don't shop at Walmart.

[43:00] But, everyone shops at Walmart. And it

[43:03] just cracks me up. I'm like, from

[43:04] wealthy to not wealthy, it Cuz cuz cuz I I my thing was like, "Oh, let's

[43:09] get you to a Day's. Let's get you to a

[43:10] Day's on the west side and on south

[43:12] I love Day's.

[43:13] You grew up there?

[43:14] >> Uh

[43:15] >> Yeah, all the time. And when I lived in

[43:17] the south When I lived in south Yeah,

[43:19] when I lived in southeast Provo, I just

[43:21] wanted Day's every day.

[43:23] And so, I moved back there. But,

[43:25] I'll give the citizens that all ask for

[43:27] Walmart. And I said, "Well, what are you

[43:28] going to What are you going to shop

[43:29] there?" I said, "Are you ridiculous? You

[43:30] have ridiculous prices." You know what

[43:31] it

[43:32] It's such a hard thing cuz people want

[43:35] what they want. And they're willing to

[43:36] go spend a hundred million dollars at

[43:38] the fork in Orem to shop at Walmart.

[43:41] Provo citizens.

[43:43] So, I don't It's like

[43:44] >> I drive to Orem to shop at Harmon's.

[43:47] >> What?

[43:47] >> I drive to Orem to shop at Harmon's.

[43:49] >> So do I.

[43:51] But, um we spend

[43:53] Provo citizens spend a hundred million

[43:54] about a hundred just under a hundred

[43:56] million at

[43:58] Springville

[44:00] and Orem for Walmart and at Smith's and

[44:02] Springville. I mean, that's what they

[44:04] want. That's what they choose to do. You

[44:05] do it.

[44:06] >> Every Sunday night I

[44:07] go to the Walmart.

[44:09] >> [laughter]

[44:11] [clears throat]

[44:11] >> First special on the show.

[44:13] >> thing, what people do want.

[44:15] >> Well, you don't know if if there was a

[44:16] Days on the west side, would people use

[44:18] it? I don't

[44:19] >> Well, but when we've gone out, like that

[44:21] one selfie, what was that one? It was

[44:22] such a total produce.

[44:24] If if there was a woodworking place

[44:26] >> And um Alan.

[44:28] >> You know, it didn't make it. The Amish

[44:30] store didn't make it. It's just sad. I

[44:32] don't I don't know what the answer is.

[44:34] >> Yeah, I mean, with grocery stores, I

[44:36] just I have a paper being published next

[44:38] week about grocery store accessibility

[44:40] in Utah.

[44:41] Um

[44:42] and in doing the research for this,

[44:43] margins at grocery stores are super

[44:46] tiny. They're so small. And so, by

[44:50] aggregating everything into a

[44:51] supermarket, you can you can actually

[44:53] run a functioning business on

[44:55] agglomeration, right? And so, and Days

[44:58] does not try to compete on price. It

[44:59] tries to compete on service.

[45:01] >> I'm I'm going to reel it back just a

[45:03] little bit just because

[45:05] It's great we're talking about grocery

[45:06] stores, but grocery stores is not what

[45:08] this meeting is about. We're about

[45:09] transportation and how to get to places.

[45:12] So, I appreciate the analysis on adding

[45:15] those grocery store points would make

[45:17] transportation

[45:19] easier,

[45:21] depending on choices people make of

[45:23] where they want to go shopping.

[45:25] Um I find it very interesting

[45:29] the transportation nodes is kind of what

[45:31] I was focusing on a little bit, getting

[45:33] to and from the major transportation

[45:35] nodes, getting to the freeway, to the

[45:37] tracks, and

[45:40] making 820 faster

[45:43] and 2200 North faster

[45:46] and free flowing, how

[45:48] much that increases people's ability to

[45:51] get to the transportation nodes, get to

[45:53] the places to go to these other places,

[45:56] or to

[45:57] >> Well, it's it's it's a big change,

[46:02] but it affects a very small number of

[46:04] people, especially the 2200 North one,

[46:07] right? There are like 10 households that

[46:08] have a big change.

[46:09] >> But the 820 North 8 home North one,

[46:12] a lot of people.

[46:13] >> Well, it's it's about

[46:15] uh it's about 10% of Provo households.

[46:18] >> Okay.

[46:23] It wasn't about just the households. We

[46:24] had a presentation by IAC the other day

[46:27] at our meeting.

[46:29] And you know, they bring in

[46:33] how many companies

[46:35] >> What is

[46:36] >> How many employees are there that come

[46:37] in there?

[46:37] >> There is 2200.

[46:38] >> 2200 that commute in and drive their

[46:41] car.

[46:43] And the um and they talked about

[46:45] ambulance trips. Like their ambulance

[46:46] trips shocked me. I had no idea cuz they

[46:48] do all the ambulances from all South

[46:50] Utah.

[46:51] You know, and they're extremely

[46:55] good in 820 right there.

[46:56] They have that

[46:57] freeway interchange there. And the

[46:58] difference

[47:00] even in ambulance time, they say they

[47:02] could cut down saving lives. And that's

[47:04] the the speed at which ambulances could

[47:06] actually get to the hospital from the

[47:07] west side and from South Provo. There's

[47:09] an interchange there instead of coming

[47:11] from so far all through University

[47:13] Parkway or center.

[47:14] >> But so would a trauma center in Spanish

[47:16] Fork.

[47:18] » I I think

[47:19] >> But they're still

[47:20] >> I mean, they're they're all driving past

[47:21] the hospital in Spanish Fork to get to

[47:23] the one in Provo.

[47:24] >> Hospitals are at a higher level, right?

[47:26] >> That's that's right. Yeah.

[47:27] >> say you have a regional hospital versus

[47:29] just a small trauma center.

[47:31] Even small trauma centers can't

[47:33] deal with certain things. They would

[47:34] have to go to the regional center.

[47:37] Um

[47:38] but I

[47:41] To me, it if you're focusing on

[47:43] transportation, you're focusing the

[47:44] other issue I see with

[47:48] accessibility

[47:49] is accessibility to businesses like

[47:51] Center Street

[47:53] and everything. Center Street

[47:55] the interchange, the whole Center Street

[47:57] corridor.

[47:58] Big talking point for it. Um and I

[48:01] appreciate the fact that you're focusing

[48:03] on accessibility and points of interest

[48:06] because I think that's a really big

[48:08] thing for business owners cuz if we have

[48:11] roads that are not functioning as they

[48:13] could be,

[48:14] Provo City is losing out on

[48:17] millions of dollars.

[48:18] >> I think there's there's two sides to

[48:20] that coin, though, right? Where if you make Center Street

[48:24] that cars can so that cars can drive by

[48:27] it more quickly,

[48:29] you will actually kill the businesses

[48:31] that are there.

[48:32] >> So, my question on that is that to be

[48:35] able to help businesses and as we're

[48:37] looking at transportation, cuz we do, we

[48:39] want to thrive in downtown.

[48:40] So, what alternative things can we do?

[48:42] We've talked about 100 North. We have

[48:44] talked about pushing to 300 South

[48:46] because the state already is expanding

[48:48] that need that a huge corridor.

[48:50] What are things that we as a community

[48:53] could recommend to City Council, to the

[48:54] mayor to say, "Hey, this would be

[48:57] something that could

[48:58] really impact

[49:00] downtown Provo in a good way."

[49:02] >> And I think I think this analysis that

[49:05] we've done here should not inform that

[49:07] discussion, right? I think I think what

[49:09] we would need to do is take this and do

[49:13] it in a way that we can all agree on

[49:15] and we, I mean the professionals that Provo City hires, is the

[49:18] consultants that they hire, um

[49:21] to implement this as as a additional way

[49:24] of looking at how Provo City functions.

[49:27] Um I think just looking at traffic

[49:29] >> analysis

[49:30] of how this analysis could help?

[49:32] What is your quick summary of how this

[49:33] analysis

[49:34] >> You see who benefits and how they

[49:35] benefit. Whereas the mo- a level service

[49:38] analysis just says, "Let's make this

[49:39] road faster."

[49:40] >> There's always multiple solutions to a

[49:42] problem. And the real world isn't nice

[49:44] like a math equation. So, if you have

[49:46] everybody not commuting all far away

[49:49] along the same corridor, if you can

[49:51] provide them alternate places to be that

[49:53] satisfy what they're looking for, the

[49:55] traffic needs on that corridor don't

[49:57] exist. You're you're eliminating the

[49:59] problem before it's a problem.

[50:01] And that's honestly ideally the best

[50:04] thing you can do. Now, it's very

[50:06] difficult. If we had like grocery

[50:08] stores, those three additional grocery

[50:10] stores, that's great. But can we here

[50:12] build them? Are we in that business?

[50:15] Right? If you build those grocery

[50:16] stores, that frees up the road for

[50:18] everybody else who uses those roads, so

[50:20] they should be happier. People have the

[50:22] grocery store closer to themselves

[50:23] should be happier. And you're avoiding

[50:26] having to fork out an intense amount of

[50:28] money to build up your transportation

[50:29] system because people don't need to go

[50:31] that far for what they need. And that is

[50:33] the ideal, right? Now, that's not the

[50:35] reality we live in, but that is the

[50:36] ideal.

[50:37] >> I mean I mean you guys have spent untold

[50:39] millions

[50:40] trying to get everyone in Saratoga

[50:42] Springs out of Saratoga Springs every

[50:44] day

[50:44] instead of just

[50:46] building some places for people to work

[50:48] in Saratoga Springs.

[50:49] >> Yes.

[50:50] Brynn, you have something?

[50:51] >> Well, I think the clear picture is how

[50:54] important land use is tied to

[50:57] transportation. I think we're all aware

[50:59] of that, but I think a couple of these

[51:01] slides really took home how important

[51:04] that message is of land use associated.

[51:08] So, I I appreciate Greg's effort here to

[51:11] really show us how they

[51:13] uh can impact. I think uh Greg is to be

[51:17] uh recognized for his good work on that,

[51:19] and uh I think the healthy discussion

[51:22] that I'm hearing, uh by the way, we're

[51:24] doing everything we can to get a grocery

[51:25] store in Southeast Provo.

[51:28] >> [laughter]

[51:29] >> We're doing some

[51:30] Yeah, uh we're we're recruiting, okay?

[51:33] I I want to put a agency together

[51:35] recruit a grocery store down there, but

[51:38] uh it's happening. It's happening, so.

[51:40] >> I do I do think that if one thing if I

[51:43] could make one recommendation out of

[51:45] this discussion, I'll make two.

[51:47] The city engineers should think about

[51:49] this when they do these things.

[51:50] The second is we have a we have a

[51:53] liaison from the planning commission

[51:55] here.

[51:56] Do we have a liaison to them?

[51:58] Like is there somebody on the

[51:59] transportation commission?

[52:03] Is it the same person?

[52:04] >> Yeah.

[52:04] >> Okay. All right, that's fine.

[52:07] >> I I appreciate that you put this

[52:09] together and I appreciate the looking at

[52:12] the impact of these things. I would

[52:13] almost I don't I don't know. I guess I

[52:15] would recommend possibly sending this on

[52:17] to city council.

[52:19] And then let them see

[52:21] if that's just

[52:23] as a document we could

[52:26] >> We can do that after that because we'll

[52:28] need to put it in the minutes and we're

[52:29] happy to forward it on to anybody.

[52:31] >> I yeah, I can render this to PDF. It

[52:33] won't have the fancy script.

[52:37] » Rachel here. I just wanted to say the

[52:39] thing that I thought was interesting was

[52:42] usually when we have a new business or

[52:44] something going in and we look at the

[52:46] traffic study, we're concerned about the

[52:48] additional traffic that will be

[52:50] generated and the impact on you know,

[52:52] the local streets.

[52:54] And this was making me think about it

[52:56] differently. Like the people who will be

[52:58] benefiting in the area by having that

[53:02] you know, attraction close to it. Um and

[53:05] I don't know that that I've seen traffic

[53:08] studies looking at the benefit as

[53:10] opposed to just the burden in that way

[53:11] before.

[53:14] » That's a really good a really good

[53:16] point. Um California changed and it no

[53:19] longer uses level of service analysis in

[53:21] its traffic impact studies.

[53:23] It's changed to something that is really

[53:25] unworkable and hard to deal with. But uh

[53:28] And so I wouldn't recommend necessarily

[53:30] doing what they do. Um

[53:32] But thinking about this, yeah, like not

[53:34] just the extra activity and how where

[53:36] all these people going to park, but will

[53:38] this actually reduce

[53:41] the distance people travel to get

[53:42] somewhere else and then would that be a

[53:44] benefit for Provo's roadways? Yeah.

[53:47] >> Again, thank you so much for putting

[53:49] together and we will

[53:50] hopefully this can be sent on to

[53:54] the council.

[53:56] >> Or would you like me to send a link?

[53:57] >> I don't know.

[53:58] >> If you send a link, just put the link to

[53:59] my email.

[54:00] >> in. That way they don't have to PDF that

[54:02] message.

[54:03] >> Perfectly.

[54:04] >> Um we have about 10 minutes left real

[54:06] quick. So I just wanted to get to the

[54:08] engineering projects update and I know

[54:11] we're going to have more discussion on

[54:12] these West End connectivity next time

[54:14] kind of a

[54:15] what I'd like you guys to bring up for

[54:17] next time is kind of your final analysis

[54:20] on all the information we've heard about

[54:21] East-West connectivity and any

[54:24] major points or thoughts. I know I have

[54:26] got a couple written down here and so

[54:28] next time we'll talk about major points

[54:29] and thoughts on it and any potential

[54:33] ideas and or recommendations we might

[54:37] And then

[54:39] uh I'd like to turn it over to the

[54:40] engineering staff for our updates real

[54:41] quick.

[54:42] >> I'm going to quickly start with the our

[54:44] State Street Trail update um from 300

[54:48] South to 9th South.

[54:50] Uh we ran into a storm drain issue where

[54:53] we had to go and redesign that. Spent a

[54:55] couple weeks redesigning, waiting for

[54:57] UDOT to approve that that uh change and

[55:01] then we're back to work on that. So if

[55:03] you haven't seen anything happening out

[55:05] there in 2 weeks, that is why.

[55:07] Uh 600 South Trail update from 100 East

[55:11] or 100 West to 4th

[55:13] East is moving forward at Center

[55:15] Construction. Um

[55:18] the railroad has cooperated and we're

[55:19] moving forward with that project.

[55:22] Um the the 820 North Bridge ribbon

[55:25] cutting is this Saturday.

[55:27] Um it starts at

[55:29] ribbon cutting for the bridge and trail

[55:32] starts at 11:00 for bike decorating and

[55:35] then at 11:30 we have some remarks from

[55:38] the mayor and and uh public works

[55:40] director. Ribbon cutting is 11:45 and

[55:43] then uh we get to ride underneath the

[55:45] bridge for the uh people have already

[55:47] been doing it. Uh so we'll do that uh

[55:51] and you can see the new mural that's

[55:53] under the bridge. Um

[55:55] >> It's really awesome. I'm excited to see

[55:56] it.

[55:56] >> That project uh came in just about 3

[56:00] weeks later than we anticipated uh for

[56:02] the road and about 6 weeks later than we

[56:05] anticipated for the trail. That's

[56:09] We didn't want anybody disturbing the

[56:11] artwork while it was under construction.

[56:13] So it's better just to keep things

[56:15] closed instead of closed we open closed

[56:18] we you know.

[56:19] So but the project is under budget. So

[56:22] we're very happy with the way that

[56:23] turned out. David Nicholson did an

[56:24] excellent job as project manager on

[56:27] that. Um

[56:28] I really believe that uh we want to

[56:31] invite all of you come out uh for that

[56:34] on Saturday morning. So we'll be in

[56:36] attendance on that. Uh Joseph anything

[56:39] else you want to say about that?

[56:40] >> Great.

[56:41] >> Okay and then University Avenue Bridge replacement update. Uh

[56:47] I don't know if anyone geeked out like I

[56:48] did. I went out there

[56:50] uh Saturday night and watched them take

[56:51] the beams off the big truck and then

[56:54] load the beams onto the bench and then they got out of sequence so

[56:58] then they had to load the beams off the

[56:59] truck and put it to the side um and then

[57:02] the next night they tried to catch up

[57:04] doing the work but anyway

[57:06] fun stuff right?

[57:07] Um it was fascinating to to continue to

[57:10] see uh that bridge going up. Uh so

[57:13] excited um

[57:14] anyway

[57:15] uh if I can answer any questions on that

[57:17] let me know. Heyon's got the last 5

[57:19] minutes. I'm going to head to my 1:30

[57:22] meeting and uh it's always good to see

[57:24] you guys and

[57:25] I'll talk with you guys about the next

[57:27] agenda. Okay?

[57:28] Thanks.

[57:28] >> Good night everyone.

[57:29] >> Thanks.

[57:32] » Okay. Well,

[57:34] what I'm going to do is we're going to

[57:35] do a quick update on our capital

[57:38] improvement projects. These are just

[57:40] some of the projects. Um

[57:42] not all of them.

[57:44] Uh here is our CDBG project. This is in

[57:47] Franklin neighborhood. We did we

[57:50] targeted total of 12 intersections.

[57:53] 32 new ADA ramps were installed and we

[57:56] did improve some sidewalk as well at the

[57:58] intersection, obviously.

[58:00] Um

[58:01] the total for that Franklin neighborhood

[58:03] was about 100 and thousand-ish.

[58:07] Um we did get total of 150,000. Mind you

[58:10] again, this was a CDBG application. The

[58:13] remaining funding, which was about 40,

[58:15] 35,000,

[58:17] we transferred that to another CDBG

[58:19] application that I did last year uh for

[58:21] Foothill neighborhood. This is close to

[58:23] the Wasatch Elementary, the new Wasatch

[58:25] Elementary School.

[58:27] Uh we did total of 14 new ADA ramps

[58:30] there. We targeted a bunch of

[58:31] intersections, as you could see. This

[58:33] one right here, 1250 East on the east

[58:35] side, the whole road was or the whole

[58:37] sidewalk or gutter was improved.

[58:40] Um the other sections that you see,

[58:42] these are spot improvements at the

[58:44] intersections. Mainly, you're looking at

[58:46] ADA and program gutter improvements.

[58:48] >> Grinding down.

[58:49] >> Sidewalk, new sidewalk.

[58:50] >> New sidewalk.

[58:51] >> That was a big project.

[58:53] >> I like that project.

[58:55] >> 1250 East looks a lot better. There were

[58:58] a lot of um drainage issues. Obviously,

[59:01] ADA was out of compliance. The driveways

[59:03] were out of compliance.

[59:05] When we improved uh 1250 East, the west

[59:09] side, I had a most of these residents,

[59:12] whenever they would see me, they would

[59:13] stop and like, "Hey, when are you going

[59:14] to do similar improvements on our side

[59:16] of the road?"

[59:17] I let them know unfortunately the amount

[59:19] of funding that I had I was able to only

[59:21] do what I'm able to do here, but I'll

[59:23] certainly reapply next year to make some

[59:26] more improvements, if if funded,

[59:28] obviously.

[59:29] Um this is some of the pictures of that

[59:31] 1250 East as well as the other locations

[59:34] in the Foothill neighborhood.

[59:38] And then 900 East 900 South sidewalk

[59:41] improvement project. This was not a CDBG

[59:44] application.

[59:45] We used our capital funding to make some

[59:47] sidewalk improvements here.

[59:49] Uh project turned out really good.

[59:52] Again, uh

[59:53] on the other side of the road, west side

[59:55] of the road,

[59:56] we got a lot of interest from our

[59:58] residents. They want to see similar

[1:00:00] improvement on their side as well. Uh

[1:00:02] this section did not have carbon gutter

[1:00:04] or sidewalk. Uh so this is brand new

[1:00:06] sidewalk, brand new carbon gutter. It

[1:00:07] was a huge connectivity issue that that

[1:00:10] we were able to resolve.

[1:00:12] Uh we didn't

[1:00:14] build two new driveway accesses based on

[1:00:16] our residents' requests.

[1:00:18] Um and then obviously there were some

[1:00:20] ADA ramps that went in here. Part of the

[1:00:22] project, we also installed a new cross

[1:00:24] gutter. Uh we had a cross gutter that was

[1:00:28] falling falling apart. We improved that

[1:00:30] with a brand new uh

[1:00:32] cross gutter there as well.

[1:00:33] And uh

[1:00:34] more pictures of the project, obviously.

[1:00:37] Uh this year I applied for two more CDBG

[1:00:41] applications, and luckily we were

[1:00:43] granted funding. So M neighborhood is

[1:00:46] going to be one of the projects that

[1:00:48] I'll get I'm going to design uh next

[1:00:50] year. We see about $250,000

[1:00:53] worth of uh funding.

[1:00:55] There was a developer

[1:00:58] a private developer, obviously,

[1:00:59] proposing a development, and they needed

[1:01:02] some extra help from the city side. In

[1:01:04] the past, we have never done anything

[1:01:07] similar to what we're doing for them,

[1:01:08] meaning going out of our way, finding a

[1:01:10] source of funding for them. Uh but

[1:01:12] obviously the the developer's

[1:01:15] idea was dependent on extra uh help from

[1:01:17] city. So we were able to get some

[1:01:19] funding, about $250,000 worth of

[1:01:21] funding. We're going to do curb gutter,

[1:01:23] driveways, and storm water ADA pullouts

[1:01:27] at the intersections and some similar

[1:01:28] improvements.

[1:01:30] The other application that I submitted

[1:01:31] for next year was for Dixon

[1:01:33] neighborhood. I'm going to do similar

[1:01:35] improvements that I did in Franklin. I'm

[1:01:36] going to target ADA ramps where we

[1:01:39] currently don't have ADA ramps or the

[1:01:40] ramps are not up to standard. Um, I did

[1:01:43] get about about 150,000 worth of funding

[1:01:46] on this.

[1:01:47] Those two will be for next year.

[1:01:50] Good.

[1:01:52] >> Good job getting a handle on that money.

[1:01:53] Good job.

[1:01:54] I would say, I mean, dealt with these

[1:01:56] kinds of projects. The ADA ramps aren't

[1:01:58] necessarily as challenging.

[1:02:01] Putting in curb and gutter and sidewalk,

[1:02:02] you would think that would be less like

[1:02:04] a really easy thing to do from a design

[1:02:05] perspective. They're kind of the most

[1:02:07] challenging because you're dealing with

[1:02:08] all this existing stuff.

[1:02:11] Trying to make it work. A lot easier to

[1:02:13] design a brand new road.

[1:02:15] Developers have it easy when they're

[1:02:16] plowing new ground, but uh, so it's hats

[1:02:19] off

[1:02:20] to the whole city staff cuz that

[1:02:22] actually is it's really quite

[1:02:24] difficult and interesting to do.

[1:02:26] >> Absolutely. Yeah, this 1250 East section

[1:02:28] that we did, um,

[1:02:30] the existing sidewalk was way lower.

[1:02:33] And based on the design, in order to

[1:02:35] meet the requirements for uh, basically

[1:02:37] driveway access and slopes as well as

[1:02:39] sidewalks to curb and gutter, there was

[1:02:41] a lot of thought processes that went

[1:02:43] into it. Uh, one of the solutions were

[1:02:45] to have curb wall all the way to

[1:02:46] project. Um, obviously, as you can see

[1:02:50] here, we have a transition going on here

[1:02:52] and the sidewalk is not 6 ft all the

[1:02:54] way. There's a transition to meet our

[1:02:56] basically slope requirements.

[1:02:58] Tying into curb and gutter and then the

[1:03:00] on the other side sidewalk tying into

[1:03:02] driveway and then tying the driveway new

[1:03:04] driveway to the existing driveways. Um,

[1:03:07] the before or

[1:03:09] the old driveways were not in

[1:03:11] compliance. So, the slopes that we have

[1:03:13] now, they're all in compliance.

[1:03:15] Slopes to curb and gutter, curb and

[1:03:16] gutter to asphalt, everything is in

[1:03:18] compliance.

[1:03:18] >> And more than ADA and sidewalk.

[1:03:22] » Oh yeah, okay.

[1:03:23] >> It's a pain. I don't like doing these

[1:03:25] projects like this where we have to do a

[1:03:26] little patchwork.

[1:03:27] >> And mind you, we didn't do all the

[1:03:29] carbon gutter. We just did

[1:03:31] as little carbon gutter as possible

[1:03:33] because obviously the funding was uh the

[1:03:35] major

[1:03:36] >> Good job on doing it right. BYU replaced

[1:03:39] two ADA ramps last year. Not a good

[1:03:41] look.

[1:03:46] » Hey, well

[1:03:48] that's it.

[1:03:48] >> You can get them on that.

[1:03:50] >> Okay.

[1:03:52] I probably have more saying what happens

[1:03:53] in Provo than what happens at BYU.

[1:03:55] >> [laughter]

[1:03:56] >> Although I anecdotally we went to DC and

[1:03:59] we're down there walking around the ADA

[1:04:00] ramps by the Department of Justice,

[1:04:02] which is the one that sets all

[1:04:03] >> They need enforcement of the ADA.

[1:04:05] >> I bet.

[1:04:06] >> They [laughter] need enforcement. They

[1:04:06] don't need any of their own money.

[1:04:08] >> Okay.

[1:04:09] >> That's awesome.

[1:04:10] >> Okay, thank you again so much and we

[1:04:12] will see you next

[1:04:14] uh

[1:04:15] >> You still don't know the date next

[1:04:16] month?

[1:04:16] >> I do want the color pencils back. But

[1:04:18] your diagram is good.

[1:04:19] >> Color pencils back and we are adjourned.

[1:04:20] Thank you very much, guys.

[1:04:21] >> See you.

Provo City Transportation and Mobility Advisory Committee | August 20, 2026

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