[0:03] Good evening. Red Bank's zoning board of

[0:06] adjustment will come to order this third

[0:08] day of September 2026. The time is 6:30.

[0:12] Roll call, please.

[0:14] >> And Tori

[0:15] >> here.

[0:15] >> Raymond Mass

[0:16] >> here.

[0:17] >> Greg Fitzgerald

[0:18] >> here.

[0:19] >> John Gilde

[0:20] >> here.

[0:20] >> Anna Cruz

[0:24] absent. Vincent Light

[0:26] >> here.

[0:27] >> Paul Kagno

[0:28] >> here. Eugene Harowitz

[0:30] >> here.

[0:31] >> Chris Havens

[0:32] >> here.

[0:33] >> Darothy Cerulo

[0:35] >> here.

[0:36] >> Can in accordance with New Jersey law

[0:39] meeting notice has been published in the

[0:41] icebury park press and the Two River

[0:43] Times and is available on the municipal

[0:45] website and the New Jersey Secretary of

[0:48] State's website. It is also posted on

[0:51] the municipal bulletin board. This

[0:54] meeting complies with the open public

[0:55] meetings act and will be tape recorded.

[0:58] If the applicant chooses to use the

[0:59] court reporter to transcribe the

[1:01] recordings, the board requires a copy of

[1:04] the transcript. A break will occur

[1:06] around 8:00 p.m. in the conference room

[1:07] on the first floor. Public is welcome to

[1:10] attend, but discussion with board

[1:11] members will not be allowed. No new case

[1:14] will be heard after 9:00 p.m. and the

[1:16] cuto off time is 9:30 p.m. Any

[1:18] applicants not heard this will be

[1:21] rescheduled for next meeting. Uh, pledge

[1:23] of

[1:23] >> allegiance.

[1:42] Okay, we have a few administrative

[1:44] matters. Uh, we have a meeting minutes

[1:47] from August 20th. Somebody like to make

[1:50] a motion to approve? I'll move those

[1:52] minutes.

[1:53] >> I'll second.

[1:58] >> I think it just I don't think you need

[2:00] to do roll just

[2:02] >> No. All in favor?

[2:04] >> I

[2:06] >> Any oppose?

[2:07] >> No.

[2:09] >> Okay. We have a couple resolutions. We

[2:11] have a resolution of approval for 44

[2:14] Haden Park.

[2:16] >> Uh Mr. Chairman, that was a uh basically

[2:19] demolition of an existing shed/workshop

[2:22] and construction of a new shed in the

[2:24] same spot. It was a rather

[2:26] straightforward application and the

[2:28] conditions of note are the applicant

[2:30] obtains any necessary demolition

[2:32] permits, no utility service for the new

[2:34] shed except electricity and uh

[2:37] compliance with Shauna's review

[2:39] memorandum. So, I apologize I got that

[2:41] late, but if that's acceptable, we can

[2:42] adopt that as presented.

[2:44] >> Okay. I have a motion to approve that

[2:47] resolution.

[2:49] >> I'll make a motion. Second. I'll second.

[2:54] There you go.

[2:57] » An Tory.

[2:58] >> Yes.

[2:59] >> Raymond Mass.

[3:00] >> Yes.

[3:00] >> Greg Fitzgerald.

[3:02] >> John Gilde.

[3:03] >> Yes.

[3:04] >> Anna Cruz.

[3:06] >> Paul Kagno.

[3:08] >> Yes.

[3:08] >> Eugene Harowitz.

[3:10] >> Yes.

[3:11] >> Okay.

[3:13] We have one more resolution of approval

[3:16] for 44 Irving Place. Mr. Mr. Chairman,

[3:19] that was an application that which was

[3:21] approved effectuating a number of

[3:23] improvements to a lot containing a

[3:25] single family home with a detached

[3:27] garage and that was on Irving Place and

[3:31] uh the conditions of note were the

[3:33] garage is not going because remember it

[3:36] was going to be a larger garage uh so it

[3:38] would be technically a principal

[3:39] structure but uh the expanded garage is

[3:42] not going to be a principal use and it's

[3:44] only going to be used for storage and

[3:45] parking purposes. Uh the garage is not

[3:47] to be used for office space. No, uh

[3:51] utility services except electricity and

[3:54] the stairs in the garage uh definitely

[3:56] pull down staircase. It's going to

[3:58] comply with the height. The bill code

[4:00] doors are going to be removed and no

[4:02] windows on the garage facing the rear

[4:04] property line and um I think that was

[4:09] the the gist of it in compliance with

[4:10] Shauna's review memorandum. And there

[4:13] was also um I believe a a placement of trees uh and the tree replacements

[4:20] have to be reviewed and approved by

[4:22] Shauna in terms of the details of sizing

[4:25] and it has to be from the burrow's

[4:27] approved natural species list. If that's

[4:30] acceptable, we can present that subject

[4:32] to legal and engineering review if

[4:33] that's acceptable.

[4:35] >> Okay. Thank you for that short

[4:37] resolution, Mr. Kennedy. Anybody like to

[4:40] make approve?

[4:43] >> I'll make motion.

[4:46] >> I'll second.

[4:49] >> Any

[4:50] >> yes.

[4:51] >> Raymond Mass.

[4:52] >> Yes.

[4:53] >> Greg Fitzgerald.

[4:54] >> Yes.

[4:55] >> John Gilde.

[4:56] >> Yes.

[4:57] >> Vincent Light.

[4:58] >> Yes.

[4:59] >> Paul Kagno.

[5:00] >> Yes.

[5:01] >> Eugene Harowitz.

[5:02] >> Yes.

[5:03] >> And Chris Havens.

[5:06] Thank you.

[5:07] >> Okay. New business. We have 56 Newman

[5:10] Springs Road.

[5:12] >> Okay, this is Jennifer Crimco and uh

[5:15] good evening and welcome back. And as um

[5:20] we're getting ready, I just wanted to do

[5:22] a couple real quick things. First up, is

[5:24] there anyone here who had any questions

[5:27] or comments regarding the sufficiency of

[5:29] the notice they uh received? And uh just

[5:32] for the record, the applicant did notice

[5:36] uh the individual and owners in Redbank

[5:39] and in Shrewsbury. So we thank you. All

[5:41] right. No comments or concerns regarding

[5:43] the notice. So the board secretary and I

[5:45] reviewed the notice and found everything

[5:47] to be in order. So it would be my humble

[5:49] opinion that we have jurisdiction to

[5:51] proceed tonight. So for the record, I

[5:53] just want to put uh some pretty unique

[5:56] aspects of this um file into the record.

[6:00] Now, why do we want to do that? We want

[6:02] to do it because one, we want to make a

[6:03] complete record. Two, we want to make

[6:05] sure everyone on the board and in the

[6:07] public um is all on the same page. And

[6:10] we want to make sure everyone has a

[6:12] basic understanding of where we started,

[6:13] where we went, and where we're going.

[6:16] And that's important because this

[6:18] application, Jennifer, I think started

[6:20] three maybe four years ago. And uh

[6:24] different different types of uh

[6:25] different board members. So, I just want

[6:27] to make sure that we're all on uh

[6:29] record. So we begin. So previously this

[6:32] applicant submitted a development

[6:34] application to the Burough of Redbank to

[6:36] demolish the existing billboard sign at

[6:39] 187 Riverside Avenue and uh it's right

[6:43] uh basically um next to the uh the

[6:46] Beerino restaurant and we had a lot of

[6:52] um hearings on that. there was a lot of

[6:55] public comments and it was a very

[6:57] nuanced and uh complicated burough

[7:00] ordinance that was in uh in effect at

[7:03] the time. So we had a lot of hearings

[7:04] and I said a lot of public comments and

[7:07] I think we also had three different

[7:09] variations of the billboard proposal. So

[7:13] ultimately at the end of the

[7:14] presentation, the board voted to deny

[7:17] that application and a memorializing

[7:19] resolution was adopted and the

[7:22] applicants filed a prerogative lawsuit

[7:24] seeking to reverse or overturn the board

[7:27] decision. So, as is standard and as I

[7:30] was authorized, I filed an answer to

[7:32] that complaint and the matter is

[7:34] presently be pending before the uh

[7:36] superior court and I guess we're sort of

[7:39] on a timeout uh pending this uh

[7:41] potential uh settlement and and hearing.

[7:45] So when in the course of a typical

[7:47] prerogative writ litigation case

[7:49] whenever we talk about a potential

[7:51] settlement we reference the term

[7:53] whispering woods hearing and that name

[7:56] and that phrase whispering woods will be

[7:58] used a lot tonight and I would like to

[8:00] just take two minutes just to explain

[8:03] and most of us up here know it because

[8:05] we've been having talk talks about it

[8:07] but I just want to explain uh Whispering

[8:10] Woods was a name of a case a local case

[8:13] and in that case. Um there were

[8:16] objectors to an application and at the

[8:18] end of the planning board or zoning

[8:20] board presentation, uh the application

[8:22] was denied and the objectors clapped and

[8:25] they were happy and and uh they thought

[8:28] that was the end of it and the um the

[8:33] party who got denied ultimately

[8:36] appealed, instituted litigation and the

[8:39] case was ultimately settled whereby the

[8:41] planning board or the zoning board

[8:42] authorized the construction of something

[8:44] slightly different than what was

[8:46] initially uh proposed. And construction

[8:49] started and the objectors, you can

[8:51] imagine, went a little uh uh were very

[8:55] confused and they said, "Wait a minute."

[8:57] They were concerned because they said,

[8:58] "We were here when this application was

[9:00] denied and uh how is this applicant now

[9:03] building and what gives and how did that

[9:05] happen and is that right?" So there was

[9:08] litigation again and the outcome of that

[9:10] whispering woods case is that if a

[9:14] planning board or zoning board are going

[9:16] to settle a litigation case involving a

[9:19] potential approval uh of an of a new

[9:22] application, there has to be notice to

[9:25] everyone and it has to be done in a

[9:26] public hearing uh with notice and

[9:29] testimony and and has to be transparent.

[9:32] And at its simplest and most basic

[9:34] level, I think we can all sort of

[9:35] understand that that makes sense. That

[9:38] everything has to be done transparently

[9:40] and in the open so everyone can see and

[9:43] question and comment and voice opinion.

[9:46] So when we hear or use that phrase

[9:49] whispering woods hearing, that's just a

[9:51] reference to the fact that it's a

[9:53] potential settlement of a prerogative

[9:55] writ litigation case and it needs to be

[9:57] publicly reviewed, publicly vetted,

[10:00] publicly discussed, publicly debated

[10:02] with all that um uh you know in in the

[10:06] view of the public. So tonight's hearing

[10:09] is in many ways a very typical

[10:11] whispering woods hearing uh because it's

[10:14] including the same applicant and it's

[10:16] includes the um billboard proposal and

[10:20] there's public notice uh and we're going

[10:23] to have a public hearing but there are

[10:26] also many other factors present which

[10:28] make this unlike many other typical

[10:31] prerogative wood uh prerogative writ

[10:33] whispering wood uh hearing cases and

[10:36] Some of those unique factors that are

[10:38] present tonight are uh involve the

[10:41] following. One, we're talking about a

[10:42] totally different a totally different

[10:44] property. The first application that was

[10:47] denied that was the subject of the

[10:48] litigation was dealing with the

[10:49] billboard at 187 Riverside Avenue.

[10:52] Tonight, we're dealing with a potential

[10:54] billboard on Newman Springs Road. Uh

[10:56] Sean, it's different zones. Uh I forget

[10:58] what zone H and now it's the HBD zone.

[11:02] It's a different property owner. It's

[11:04] totally different surrounding uses and on top of that, Shauna, we have a

[11:08] different a different ordinance in

[11:10] effect. Um at last time when we uh came

[11:15] for what I'm going to say round one, um

[11:17] there was understandably some questions

[11:20] and concerns about the nuances of the

[11:23] ordinance. So, um that ordinance has

[11:26] been revised and uh readopted and

[11:29] clarified. And there was also uh

[11:31] Jennifer I think in round one there was

[11:34] a question that whether you needed site

[11:36] plan approval whether you needed use

[11:37] variance approval whether you need a

[11:38] bulk variance approval and I think we

[11:40] had 12 interpretations uh on on on the

[11:43] docket. So now all that is eliminated.

[11:46] We know that use variance approval is

[11:48] needed and um interestingly the

[11:52] underlying testimony from the three or

[11:55] four hearings that we had uh on the in

[11:57] round one are not necessarily relevant

[12:01] uh to this site or the nature of the

[12:04] surrounding uses. Um and that's why

[12:06] after a lot of debate the what we agreed

[12:10] was that you everyone was more than

[12:12] welcome to listen to those tapes but you

[12:13] did not have to and also

[12:17] we all agreed that this uh would be

[12:20] technically a new application. So Mr.

[12:23] Chair I have um sort of coined a new

[12:27] legal phrase uh instead of I'm I'm

[12:29] calling it a whispering woods type of

[12:31] hearing. So, I don't know if it's going

[12:33] to uh get any traction, but that that's

[12:35] sort of my uh middle ground there. So,

[12:38] now we return back to our procedural

[12:40] history. So, as part of the litigation

[12:42] process, uh the board's representatives

[12:44] and the applicants representative

[12:46] discussed some potential settlement

[12:49] options. Um again of course in the

[12:52] context of the Whispering Woods case law

[12:54] and the settlement concept um generally

[12:58] involved uh the following and it

[13:01] involved uh and we'll go into much more

[13:04] detail of this later on but it involved

[13:06] um the removal of the billboard at 187

[13:10] uh Riverside Avenue. It uh involved the

[13:13] permanent removal and abandonment or of

[13:15] seven or eight other uh static

[13:18] billboards uh in the Redbank area. It

[13:22] involved um use uh the bureau's use of

[13:26] the billboard uh at no charge for

[13:28] certain designated uh time and then also

[13:31] in the use of a um for emergencies. And

[13:36] there was also uh a moratorum on

[13:39] converting other billboards and we'll go

[13:40] into that in a little bit. But we had a pretty extensive uh settlement

[13:45] agreement. And for what I would like to

[13:48] do, I'm going to mark as B1 is the

[13:51] resolution of this board conditionally

[13:53] authorizing the uh the settlement

[13:56] agreement. And then I'm going to mark as

[13:58] two B2 the actual settlement agreement.

[14:02] But um uh again, it's sort of uh the

[14:07] settlement agreement very clearly. Uh

[14:10] well, tonight's hearing will be um you

[14:13] know, all like all other applications.

[14:15] The applicant's going to have the burden

[14:17] of proof. They're going to need to

[14:18] satisfy the legal standards and they're

[14:20] going to have to address your answers

[14:21] and questions and comments and it may be

[14:24] approved. It may be denied. It may be

[14:26] approved with conditions. Um but uh also

[14:30] in many respects because of the afores

[14:32] whispering woods this application is

[14:34] very different from our other typical

[14:35] hearings. But I think before I forget

[14:38] and given the um extremely nuanced

[14:41] procedural history, there's a lot of

[14:43] stuff that has happened already in this

[14:45] uh how we got here and I just want to

[14:48] make uh very clear that though there is

[14:51] a conditional settlement agreement in

[14:53] effect. One of the big conditions is

[14:56] conditioned on the fact that the um

[15:00] board approves the application at a

[15:02] whispering woods hearing and there is no

[15:06] obligation uh to to do that. It based

[15:09] going to be based upon the testimony and

[15:10] evidence presented. Now real quickly uh

[15:13] before we start I want to uh give a

[15:15] couple of shoutouts to a bunch of

[15:17] people. We've been before the court and

[15:19] the court has been very helpful in

[15:22] managing and facilitating potential

[15:25] settlement without in my opinion without

[15:27] crossing uh that line. And I want to um

[15:30] I want to thank um we've got Ed Purcell

[15:34] who was the applicants litigation

[15:36] attorney and Jennifer Crimco who's their

[15:38] zoning attorney and and the outfront

[15:40] representatives. Um, obviously we've had

[15:42] a lot of uh positions where we have

[15:46] legally been 100% diametrically opposed

[15:49] to each other, but between Ed and

[15:50] Jennifer and myself, we've been very

[15:52] collegial and very respectful and uh on

[15:55] many points, we just agreed to disagree.

[15:58] And uh at the risk of getting personal,

[16:00] I think we probably need a little bit

[16:01] more of that in the world. I want to

[16:03] thank our friends at at TNM. um they

[16:06] reviewed things uh in an expeditious

[16:08] fashion but um most importantly without

[16:12] sacrificing any thoroughess or

[16:14] completeness. Mr. Chairman, I absolutely

[16:17] want to thank my friend Shauna. She's

[16:19] been wonderful for this thing for three

[16:21] or four years. She's dealt with the the

[16:23] initial ordinance and the handling of

[16:25] the the new ordinance and she uh I don't

[16:28] see it myself, but apparently I'm

[16:29] annoying and I I' I've must have spoken

[16:31] to her, you know, sometimes 15 times a

[16:34] day. And I um if I was texting

[16:38] uh how great she is, I would end the

[16:40] text with a whole bunch of happy face

[16:42] emojis and thumbs up emojis because

[16:44] Shauna is is is the real deal. And I

[16:46] also, Mr. Mr. Chairman, I want to thank

[16:48] you and the board members because this

[16:49] has not been easy and it's been

[16:51] complicated and it's been long and it's

[16:53] been different boards uh different

[16:55] mixtures of boards over the years and uh

[16:58] you have all and I'm serious about this.

[17:00] You you've been very patient. You've

[17:01] been very thorough. You've been very uh

[17:03] committed and you're all volunteers and

[17:06] I think you're for the record I think

[17:08] you're wonderful ambassadors to this

[17:09] town and I think the board is is is

[17:11] great uh to have you. Uh so anyway,

[17:15] against this um we're now here and um we

[17:20] should just do a couple of normal

[17:22] things. So before I'm going to uh shoot

[17:24] it over to

[17:26] uh Jennifer Crimco and she's going to

[17:29] enter her appearance and we'll also do a

[17:30] little bit of conflict check as to who

[17:32] the principles of the owner are and and

[17:33] the applicant. But we're going to do a

[17:35] couple of things. So, first up, we're

[17:37] going to swear in uh Shauna uh Ebanks,

[17:40] who's a planner and our director of

[17:41] community um I'm sorry, a director of e

[17:45] community development. And um we're

[17:48] going to swear in Carolyn Ryder from

[17:50] TNM, who's the burrow planner, and we're

[17:52] also going to see swear in Jackie Dur uh

[17:56] our board engineer from TNM Associates.

[17:58] So, uh, ladies, if you wouldn't mind

[18:00] raising your right hands, do you swear

[18:03] that the information and testimony

[18:04] you're about to provide to the extent

[18:07] you provide any will be the truth, the

[18:09] whole truth, and nothing but the truth,

[18:10] so help you God. Okay. And before we um

[18:15] mark uh the items into evidence, just a

[18:18] couple little caveats. And ultimately,

[18:20] uh Jennifer Crimco here is going to be

[18:22] able to say, "Hey, I agree with

[18:24] everything you said, or I agree with

[18:26] half of it. uh you need to add 08 and I

[18:29] want you to take out 12, but we can uh

[18:31] do all that. But a couple of caveats. So

[18:34] the initial vote was taken um I think in

[18:38] 2024. I'm not sure. Um but uh everyone

[18:42] here tonight is eligible to participate.

[18:45] So if you weren't on the board back

[18:47] then, that's okay. If you voted no back

[18:49] then, that's okay. If you didn't even

[18:52] live in Redbank at the time, that's

[18:53] okay. Um, so it's uh everyone um and

[18:58] it's okay if you voted, you know, you

[19:01] entertained the settlement agreement or

[19:02] you didn't want to entertain the

[19:03] settlement agreement. This is a brand

[19:05] new start, new application. And

[19:07] Charlene, for the record, even though I

[19:09] said everyone can participate, this is a

[19:11] use variance application. So only seven

[19:14] members will ultimately vote. And

[19:18] remember uh in order for a use variance

[19:20] application to be approved, we need uh

[19:22] the applicant needs five affirmative yes

[19:25] votes. So uh to mark into the record uh

[19:29] we're going to mark as A1 is the

[19:31] application package. A2 is the minor

[19:35] site plan prepared by dynamic

[19:37] engineering and that's one sheet dated

[19:39] July 8th 2026.

[19:42] A3 is the survey dynamic survey one

[19:44] sheet dated April 23rd 2026.

[19:48] A4 is the application submission letter

[19:50] prepared by Jennifer Crimco and it was

[19:53] July 16th, 2026.

[19:56] A5 is the intent to proceed. And I'm

[20:00] going to mark the TNM Associates review

[20:02] letter dated August 14th, 2026 as B3.

[20:06] And a couple of real other real quick

[20:08] things. Um A6 will be the outfront uh

[20:13] protocol A and B and that uh Jennifer

[20:16] Krimco and her team will explain that sort of explains some of the uh the

[20:23] no charge uh protocol that the at which

[20:25] the bureau can use the uh billboard if

[20:29] the application is approved. A7 are the

[20:32] sign details

[20:34] and A8 is a sign detail sketch exhibit

[20:40] and we have A9 is an aerial exhibit and

[20:43] A10 is the lighting plans and view angle

[20:46] exhibit. A1 is a billboard removal

[20:50] exhibit. A12 is a disclosure.

[20:53] A13 we're going to mark as protocol A.

[20:56] A14 we're going to mark as protocol B.

[20:59] And then A15 is a communication from uh

[21:02] Dynamic and that's dated August 24th,

[21:04] 2026. And last but not least, I just

[21:07] want to say one quick thing before I

[21:08] forgot. Um part of our settlement

[21:12] agreement did not require

[21:15] uh the applicant to use um the uh

[21:20] Jennifer the what is view technology?

[21:23] Narrow view technology. and Jennifer uh

[21:26] Krimpco sent me an email the other day

[21:28] saying, "Hey, even though it's not

[21:29] required, we are going to provide that."

[21:32] So, we thank you and you can testify

[21:33] into that later on. So, against that

[21:36] very long introduction, I thank the

[21:38] board members. I thank members of the

[21:39] public. And I turn it over to Jennifer

[21:41] Crimco.

[21:42] >> Good evening, members of the board. It's

[21:43] nice to see everyone and it's nice to

[21:45] see some of the new faces. Jennifer

[21:47] Crimco, on behalf of the applicant, I

[21:49] would say I agree with 98% of what Kevin

[21:52] did. I have some questions before I can

[21:54] agree to a hundred. So before I go into

[21:56] it, if the it's okay with Mr. Chair,

[21:58] I'll just go through some of these

[21:59] things.

[22:00] >> So

[22:01] >> Jennifer, please speak enough

[22:03] >> on the way down. I will.

[22:04] >> Sorry. Um, so a couple things. First,

[22:08] the site plan was

[22:12] not one page. It's a four page and it's

[22:15] actually revised through 82426.

[22:20] And those are the ones that were

[22:22] submitted to the board on 824.

[22:24] >> So let's mark that as A16 just to be

[22:28] clear.

[22:28] >> Okay. So the first one was the original

[22:31] and then this is the right and and just

[22:33] so the board is aware this was done as a

[22:35] result of the comments from the planner

[22:37] and the engineer. We added some more

[22:39] details to the plan. So A16 is the site

[22:41] plan revised through 82426.

[22:46] Okay. And when you talk about the sign

[22:48] detail

[22:50] and the sign detail sketch exhibit,

[22:54] I just want to make sure, sorry, Mr.

[22:57] Chair,

[23:02] the the aerial exhibit is

[23:03] self-explanatory. The lighting view and

[23:05] sign view angle is self-explanatory.

[23:08] Billboard removal is self-explanatory.

[23:10] May I just see what you're referencing

[23:12] as the as A7 and A8? You know, and Sean,

[23:15] I was reviewing from your um um

[23:19] computer. Okay.

[23:21] >> We don't have a sign detail. What we do

[23:24] have is a sign detail comparison

[23:25] exhibit. And I think that that was

[23:28] probably what those were intended to be.

[23:31] >> So, and let's just mark that A17 sign

[23:34] detail comparison exhibit.

[23:36] >> Right. But I don't know what A seven and

[23:39] eight are.

[23:42] So, originally I had sent you one that

[23:44] had them in the vertical and then Dan

[23:47] submitted one that has them in the

[23:49] horizontal to hand out. So, I think

[23:52] Kevin, if it's okay with you, they

[23:53] should probably be A7 and 8 instead of a

[23:56] new exhibit.

[23:57] >> Um, okay.

[24:00] >> So, A A7 can be the sign detail vertical

[24:04] and A8 can be the horizontal. And it is

[24:06] the same exhibit. It's just how it's

[24:08] presented.

[24:09] >> Got it.

[24:13] >> Okay. And then

[24:15] the only other thing, and it's not a

[24:16] disagreement. I tend to agree with you

[24:18] that this is not a typical Whispering

[24:20] Woods, but I'm not comfortable calling

[24:22] it a Whispering Woods type because I

[24:24] believe this is a Whispering Woods case.

[24:25] I think we're following the letter of

[24:27] the law 100%. So, I would like to

[24:29] characterize this as a Whispering Woods

[24:31] hearing. Although not a traditional one,

[24:33] it still falls within what a Whispering

[24:35] Woods hearing would be. So, you're not

[24:37] going to accept my coined phrase of

[24:38] whispering woods type, but we're okay.

[24:40] >> Not for this one. The rest. So,

[24:44] as always, and I think I said this at

[24:46] all the prior hearings I've been here,

[24:47] and every hearing I've ever been to

[24:49] where Kevin is the board attorney, you

[24:51] stole a lot of my thunder. Um, I know

[24:53] that in an abundance of caution, you

[24:55] like to be sure to uh put everything on

[24:58] the record, and I appreciate that, and I

[25:00] thank you for that. And I echo Kevin and

[25:03] thanking him and the board members and

[25:05] Shauna for working so hard to get us

[25:07] where we are today.

[25:10] Um

[25:11] I have two additional exhibits that were

[25:15] submitted in advance.

[25:17] So A7 and I have handouts of everything

[25:20] for the board. I see that everyone on

[25:24] this side is with me plus one on that

[25:26] side is with me. So there's only a

[25:27] couple members of public. I did print

[25:30] enough to to have them. So, my first

[25:32] question is for all of the exhibits that

[25:34] um Kevin just went through, do you

[25:36] already have your copies or would you

[25:38] like me to hand out additional copies?

[25:43] » I think we have an older version of the

[25:45] site plan, right?

[25:46] >> No, no, no. Not the not the big one. I'm

[25:48] sorry, Mr. Gild Day. I'm just talking

[25:50] about these types of exhibits that we

[25:51] went through. So,

[25:53] >> yeah, please. Yeah.

[26:05] Then the remainder we can put on the

[26:07] table any member of the public.

[26:09] >> And then Jennifer, just so I know, this

[26:11] first one here, what number is that?

[26:15] >> Which one's the first one?

[26:16] >> Um,

[26:18] >> that is a eight.

[26:21] >> Eight. Got it.

[26:22] >> The second one is the aerial. So that is

[26:25] a nine.

[26:29] Thank you.

[26:31] >> The third one is the light and view

[26:34] angle. That's a 10.

[26:38] » Got it.

[26:46] » The next one is the billboard removal

[26:48] exhibit.

[27:00] And tell me when you're ready, Kevin,

[27:01] because

[27:01] >> I'm ready.

[27:02] >> Okay.

[27:03] >> A17

[27:04] is a public benefit package,

[27:09] and you're going to hear testimony uh

[27:11] from the representative from outfront

[27:13] with regard to the types of public

[27:15] messaging that we uh provide.

[27:18] >> You know what, Jen? Just hold on. What

[27:19] number is this one?

[27:23] That one is A1.

[27:24] >> A1. And then one last one. This is

[27:29] >> that is the lighting view angle exhibit.

[27:32] >> And that's a

[27:34] >> I need to look real quick. That's A10.

[27:37] >> Got it. All right. And then A17 is a

[27:40] public benefit

[27:42] >> photo pack.

[27:43] >> Photo package.

[28:07] again. If there's any member of the

[28:08] public that wants to see these, they're

[28:10] available.

[28:15] Uh

[28:17] and then A18

[28:23] is uh the renderings

[28:27] of

[28:28] the billboard, the proposed billboard

[28:31] and the relocated commercial sign as to

[28:33] what it will appear from various sites.

[28:36] I'm sorry, from various distances public

[28:39] and west.

[29:05] I'm just going to I'll I'll call up

[29:07] Andrew and have him get situated, but

[29:10] we'll wait until everything Yes.

[29:42] Now an acceptable time to ask a

[29:43] clarifying question on the whispering

[29:45] woods aspect of the hearing. Okay.

[29:48] >> Um does the whispering woods uh hearing

[29:52] meaning this this application is

[29:54] distinct from the old one, right? But um

[29:58] does the does that mean that the

[30:00] settlement can have bearing on tonight's

[30:03] >> Absolutely.

[30:04] >> Okay. So you intend to include um the

[30:06] terms of the settlement as special

[30:08] reasons or positive criteria in the

[30:11] >> I I I love your use of the planning

[30:15] vernacular. The that those aren't going

[30:18] to be the special reasons necessarily.

[30:20] So a couple of things if I may, Kevin,

[30:22] to just supplement what you so aptly uh

[30:25] stated. So, Whispering Woods hearing,

[30:27] yes, we have to present the revised

[30:29] plans. We have to put our proofs on as

[30:30] it relates to the revised plans, but

[30:33] essentially a Whispering Woods hearing

[30:34] is not only the approval of the

[30:36] application should you so approve it. It

[30:38] is the acceptance of the terms of the

[30:40] settlement. So, what does that mean?

[30:42] Everything we agreed to in that

[30:43] settlement that we signed, if the board

[30:46] approves that tonight, then those all

[30:49] apply as conditions. So everything

[30:52] within that settlement would apply to

[30:54] any approval that was granted tonight.

[30:55] We're not here to relitigate those.

[30:57] We've already agreed to it, both the

[31:00] board as well as the applicant. As Kevin

[31:02] had said, that doesn't mean that there

[31:03] can't be other reasonable conditions

[31:04] imposed, which we'll go through. Um, it

[31:08] is not the conditions themselves that

[31:10] are the public benefit or the special

[31:12] reasons, but what we're promising to do

[31:15] as part of those conditions add to the

[31:18] special reasons. And I think Mr. Gild

[31:20] day. I think that that gives me the

[31:21] opportunity to tell you who's going to

[31:22] be here tonight and who's going to

[31:24] testify and who's going to testify to

[31:26] what. So, I have Andrew Arvey here as a

[31:28] representative of Outfront. I'm going to

[31:31] go through the process of swearing him

[31:33] in, having him tell you all about

[31:35] himself. uh he will be giving some of

[31:38] the background as it relates to uh who

[31:40] outfront is what the what we are

[31:44] required to put on the record uh as

[31:46] outfront as to what we have the

[31:47] authority to stipulate to in the

[31:49] settlement as well as answer some

[31:51] questions. The technical aspects of this

[31:54] will be handled by Dan Dockerty who is a

[31:57] uh principal engineer at Dynamic

[31:59] Engineering. He will go through all of

[32:02] the zoning criteria, what's existing,

[32:05] what we're proposing. He'll go through a

[32:07] lot of the exhibits. Um, and he will

[32:10] offer a lot of the detailed information

[32:12] with regard to lighting, luminance,

[32:15] impacts on, uh, the neighborhood and

[32:19] residential and things like that. Then I

[32:22] also have Christine Capone here. She's a

[32:24] professional planner. Uh, she will offer

[32:26] all of the planning testimony in support

[32:28] of the application. So she will go

[32:30] through the proofs that we need to as it

[32:32] relates to particular suitability, the

[32:35] purposes of land use which is all part

[32:37] of the positive and then the negative no

[32:39] substantial detriment to the public good

[32:41] or to the master plan or the zone plan

[32:43] and then the Medici reconciliation. So

[32:46] she'll go through all of that. So each

[32:49] witness has a distinct part that's all

[32:52] kind of related. So did that answer that

[32:54] for you? Yeah, I understand that the

[32:56] procedure, but um I think I also need to

[32:58] hear from our council too that we that's

[33:01] how that's also your understanding of

[33:02] the

[33:02] >> work 100% that uh if let's just assume

[33:06] for purpose of this discussion that the

[33:09] application is approved um the

[33:12] conditions of approval would include

[33:14] compliance with the settlement agreement

[33:15] and we will more clearly specify every

[33:18] single condition. Uh, yes. So, that 100%

[33:22] is true.

[33:23] And then Jennifer, just um and I I I

[33:26] forget. I have so many papers here. Do

[33:28] you recall offh hand the name of the

[33:30] owner of the property?

[33:32] Um, I just want to do a quick internal

[33:35] conflict check. Shauna, do you remember?

[33:38] >> No, no, no. The legal

[33:41] >> Yeah, I think it's Food Properties LLC.

[33:43] >> Okay. And then, and then the um outfront

[33:46] media. So, hearing those names. any

[33:49] questions or comments or concerns about

[33:51] conflicts or potential conflicts?

[33:52] >> And I can just tell you some of the

[33:54] representatives for the owner um are

[33:56] Scadudo and Aelina and Outfront is a

[34:00] publicly traded company. So there are no

[34:02] owners of 10% or more. That would create

[34:04] a conflict.

[34:04] >> Thank you.

[34:05] >> So unless you own a lot of stock in

[34:07] Outfront, uh I would say that you would

[34:09] not be conflicted out.

[34:11] >> Got it. So you want to swear in Andrew?

[34:13] >> I would. Thank you.

[34:14] >> Andrew, if you could just state your

[34:16] first and last name, please.

[34:17] >> Sure. That's Andrew Arve. That's spelled

[34:20] A R. V as in Victor. A Y.

[34:23] >> A R V A Y.

[34:26] >> Yes, that's correct.

[34:26] >> Okay. And your address?

[34:28] >> 185 US Highway 46, Fairfield, New

[34:31] Jersey.

[34:31] >> All right. Do you swear that the

[34:32] information and testimony you're about

[34:34] to provide will be the truth to the best

[34:35] of your knowledge to help you God?

[34:37] >> Yes.

[34:37] >> And just for the record, you're

[34:38] testifying tonight in your capacity as

[34:40] >> real estate representative for Alfront

[34:42] Media.

[34:44] >> Okay. Okay. And just uh bring that mic

[34:46] really close to you so that we hear.

[34:50] >> You're more comfortable with that then

[34:51] feel free.

[34:52] >> Uh real estate representative for

[34:54] Alfront Media. That better everybody?

[34:56] >> Yep. Okay.

[34:56] >> Keep it close to your mouth if you don't

[34:57] mind. So Andrew just take a moment to

[35:00] give uh the board the benefit of your

[35:02] experience

[35:03] uh with regard to real estate and what

[35:06] you do for out front as well as with

[35:08] outfront.

[35:09] >> Sure. So, I've uh been involved in your

[35:11] mouth. Sorry. I have 17 years of

[35:13] experience in real estate sales,

[35:15] leasing, and development. I've been with

[35:17] Outfront Media for over a year and a

[35:19] half now as a real estate representative

[35:20] for New Jersey. My roles in my current

[35:23] position are I work directly with the

[35:25] senior real estate manager of New Jersey

[35:28] in the modernization of the existing

[35:30] billboards and identifying and

[35:32] developing new sites as well as all

[35:34] aspects of portfolio management

[35:37] including leasing and permitting.

[35:39] >> Okay. And you're authorized to speak on

[35:40] behalf of the company and you're

[35:42] authorized to agree to conditions or

[35:45] make commitments on behalf of the

[35:46] company tonight.

[35:47] >> Yes.

[35:48] >> Okay. Great. So for those board members

[35:51] that were not here at the last meeting

[35:52] and were not uh didn't have the

[35:54] opportunity to read the many many

[35:56] transcripts, if you could just take a

[35:58] few minutes to talk about who Outfront

[36:00] is and what they do.

[36:02] >> Sure. So Outfront is a national Alfront

[36:04] Media is a nationally outdoor

[36:06] advertising company. We are publicly

[36:08] traded on the New York Stock Exchange

[36:10] under the symbol OU.

[36:13] In New Jersey, we operate over 3,500

[36:16] billboards, 117 of which are digital,

[36:20] and we've been operating digital

[36:22] billboards in New Jersey since 2009.

[36:25] >> Okay. And out and and I'm going to use

[36:27] outfront as a shortened version rather

[36:30] than saying outfront media LLC every

[36:32] time. I'm sure the board can appreciate

[36:34] that. Um, so outfront has a signed lease

[36:38] with the property owner for this

[36:40] proposed billboard.

[36:41] >> Yes, that is correct.

[36:42] >> Okay. And the lease is for how long?

[36:44] >> The lease is 15 years with a 5-year

[36:46] outfront option.

[36:48] >> Okay, great. And outfront would maintain

[36:52] and operate the sign. Is that correct?

[36:54] >> Yes, that is correct.

[36:55] >> If it were to be approved.

[36:58] Okay. Um

[37:01] why when when we went through the

[37:03] settlement process

[37:05] um and we were discussing potential

[37:07] alternative sites within Redbank that

[37:10] would uh be suited for this billboard.

[37:14] What made you pick this location?

[37:17] >> So the reason we selected this location

[37:19] was the lot suitability. It's a good

[37:21] location in terms of depth.

[37:23] >> I see that some board members are not

[37:25] hearing you. So I need you to hold it

[37:26] closer.

[37:27] >> Okay. Can you use that better everybody?

[37:28] Sorry about that. Uh the reason we

[37:30] selected this site was its good location

[37:33] in terms of depth and size of the lot,

[37:35] ease of access for the construction and

[37:37] the maintenance of the sign as well as

[37:40] that it can be constructed to meet all

[37:43] the NJ DOT regulations and zoning

[37:45] requirements. It does not interfere with

[37:48] any existing use on the property as well

[37:50] as the ingress or the egress of the

[37:52] property. Newman Springs Road is a main

[37:54] thoroughfare in nature commercial

[37:56] highway and it was a stipulation of the

[37:59] settlement to find a location on Newman

[38:01] Springs Road.

[38:02] >> Okay. And just from your perspective, it

[38:04] being in their business district along a

[38:07] very heavily trafficked road is

[38:08] appropriate location for the billboard.

[38:10] >> Correct. It's suitable exactly for the

[38:12] traveling public.

[38:13] >> Okay. And I'm going to have Dan go

[38:15] through what we're actually proposing by

[38:17] way of billboard because he has all of

[38:19] the exhibits. And you'd indicated that

[38:21] we meet uh state DOT requirements. So

[38:25] that involves everything related to what

[38:27] the DOT regulates with regard to safety,

[38:30] the messaging, how often uh the message

[38:34] when the how long the messages have to

[38:37] stay on before they can change, the

[38:39] immediate changing of the message. Is

[38:40] that correct?

[38:41] >> Yes, that is correct.

[38:42] >> Okay. And those in your understanding

[38:44] all of those are put in place by the DOT

[38:46] and the statute to ensure safety for the

[38:49] motoring public.

[38:49] >> Correct. Safety, visibility, and

[38:51] traffic.

[38:52] >> Okay. And all of these requirements are

[38:54] what is applied to any billboard, any

[38:57] digital billboard throughout the state.

[38:59] >> Correct.

[39:03] » Okay. Um, as it relates to digital

[39:06] billboarding, why don't you take a

[39:08] moment to explain to the board what the

[39:11] requirements are with distances to other

[39:13] billboards.

[39:13] >> So, for a digital billboard in the state

[39:15] of New Jersey per the NJ DOT outdoor

[39:18] advertising regulations, it needs to be

[39:21] 3,000 ft linear feet from another

[39:23] digital billboard. So, there cannot be

[39:25] another digital billboard within 3,000

[39:27] ft of an existing one.

[39:29] >> Okay. Or proposed. So, should this be

[39:31] approved?

[39:32] >> Correct.

[39:32] >> Okay. So whether whether outfront owns

[39:36] it or not that's just the regulation

[39:38] >> correct from that.

[39:39] >> Can I just ask does that mean also I

[39:42] forget. So it doesn't mean across the

[39:44] street it just means linear.

[39:46] >> Yes that is correct.

[39:47] >> So you could have one across the street

[39:49] but you just would that would be okay.

[39:51] >> We can't but we can't based on the

[39:54] settlement agreement.

[39:55] >> Right. But but the thousand applies to

[39:57] on the same side.

[39:58] >> 3,000 applies. Yes.

[39:59] >> I'm sorry. Got it.

[40:00] >> Correct.

[40:02] >> Okay. So the permit was previously

[40:04] issued and it was uh renewed on March

[40:07] 2026 and obvious we they didn't send out

[40:11] the updated permit list yet. So we don't

[40:13] have a physical copy of it but we have

[40:15] confirmed its renewal.

[40:16] >> Correct. The permit has been renewed and

[40:18] paid for annually. This is done usually

[40:20] around March and that permit is good for

[40:22] one year. We renew these every year and

[40:24] we are just awaiting the updated permit

[40:26] list from the NJ DOT but it is current

[40:28] and it is active.

[40:29] >> Okay. So should the board approve this

[40:31] and obviously before any construction

[40:33] we'd have to provide a copy of that

[40:34] permit.

[40:35] >> Absolutely.

[40:36] >> Okay.

[40:40] So, as it relates to the operations of

[40:44] the um digital sign,

[40:48] obviously what are some of the benefits

[40:51] to have a digital sign as opposed to a

[40:53] static billboard, which and when we use

[40:55] the term static, I know the board

[40:57] members who are with me for the last

[40:58] four hearings know exactly what I mean.

[41:00] For any of the new board members, static

[41:03] means uh one that is uh in place.

[41:06] >> Correct. A static is a vinyl, printed

[41:08] vinyl that is stretched over the

[41:10] structure itself and has to be changed

[41:12] every time the ad needs to be changed.

[41:14] >> Okay. And what's the benefit of having a

[41:16] digital LED sign?

[41:18] >> So a digital LED sign, it's easier for

[41:21] the workers of Outfront to change.

[41:23] There's less maintenance. There's less

[41:25] going to the actual site to change the

[41:27] advertising copy.

[41:28] >> So when you say it's easier, let's go

[41:29] into a little more detail on this. So

[41:32] other than maintenance, which is only

[41:33] four times a year, correct? The messages

[41:35] are all done by computer offsite. So in

[41:39] order to change the billboard message,

[41:41] we don't need to bring in trucks and

[41:43] ladders and and and work people who

[41:45] might be in the way of operations of the

[41:48] roadway and or the site, but it actually

[41:51] can all be done remotely.

[41:53] >> It's all done remotely via a secure

[41:55] internet connection to the billboard.

[41:57] >> Okay. And I had alluded to the fact that

[42:01] the DOT doesn't allow um moving images

[42:05] or images that wave in and out. So how

[42:07] does that work?

[42:08] >> Correct. So there's no motion, animation

[42:10] or video allowed by the NJT DOT

[42:13] regulations. The images, the

[42:16] advertisements are changed

[42:17] instantaneously

[42:19] from one to the other. There's no

[42:20] waving. It's not like a screen saver.

[42:22] There's no in between. It just goes one

[42:25] to the next instantaneous. And that's

[42:27] been determined by the DOT to be the the safety mechanism with regard to

[42:32] digital billboards.

[42:32] >> Correct. And we would not be able to

[42:34] operate any billboards if we used any

[42:36] motion, animation, or video.

[42:38] >> Okay. Now, and I say this more for the

[42:41] board's benefit than for your benefit.

[42:43] So, I I'd ask that questions with regard

[42:46] to what we're going to talk about next

[42:47] be deferred in any technical nature to

[42:50] Dan because we're not going to go into

[42:51] the technical nature. I just want to

[42:53] give it offer to you from out front and

[42:56] how they operate what these things are.

[42:58] So, um, some of the things that Dan is

[43:01] going to talk about is the brightness of

[43:03] the billboard in in foot candles on the

[43:06] ground as well as luminance or knits at

[43:10] the billboard, how bright it is. So, in

[43:13] the first instance, the brightness of

[43:16] this billboard in either way is not

[43:18] constant throughout the day. Is that

[43:20] correct?

[43:20] >> That's correct. It's variable. There is

[43:22] a photo sensor, a photo cell on the top

[43:25] of the billboard and in the screens that

[43:26] adjusts to the ambient light. So, for

[43:29] instance, at night time it dims down.

[43:31] You don't want it too bright. It sounds

[43:32] counterintuitive, but you don't want it

[43:34] too bright because you want to be able

[43:35] to read the message and not get blinded.

[43:37] During the day, it goes to max capacity

[43:39] because it has to compete with the

[43:40] ambient light of the sun.

[43:42] >> Okay. And and then throughout throughout

[43:45] the day, if it's raining, if it's

[43:46] cloudy, if the sun comes out, if it's

[43:48] dusk, it adjusts as we go.

[43:50] >> Correct. that adjust to the weather

[43:51] conditions and the ambient light.

[43:52] >> And it's not just that we don't want it

[43:54] to be blinding. We want to try and

[43:55] achieve as little impact as possible and

[43:58] really just focus on the um traveling

[44:01] public.

[44:02] >> Exactly. That is correct.

[44:03] >> Okay. And uh one of the things that was

[44:06] stipulated to in the settlement

[44:08] agreement that I want to offer through

[44:11] uh Andrew now is that uh the billboard

[44:14] will be turned off daily from midnight

[44:16] to 5:00 a.m. Is that correct?

[44:18] >> Correct. midnight to 5:00 a.m. the

[44:19] billboard will be turned off.

[44:21] >> Okay. And this will be important as we

[44:24] go through and talk about dark sky

[44:26] compliance through uh DAN, but the sign

[44:29] is monitored 24/7 by a camera uh

[44:33] installed on both sides of the faces of

[44:35] the screen. So if anything should go

[44:38] wrong, it can be addressed.

[44:41] >> Correct. It could be remotely turned

[44:42] off. If there's any issue with it, if

[44:44] there's a tampering, it goes off

[44:45] immediately. There's a critical failafe

[44:48] function that has to be put on it per

[44:50] the DOT where if there's any

[44:52] interference, anyone tries to come up to

[44:54] the billboard and mess with it, it'll

[44:56] automatically turn off and the screen

[44:57] will go black.

[44:58] >> Okay. And

[45:01] what are some of the benefits of

[45:03] digital?

[45:04] >> So, some of the benefits of digital are

[45:06] the flexibility for timely and relevant

[45:09] messaging based on the time of the day,

[45:11] the weather conditions, and any other

[45:12] factors in the surrounding areas. For

[45:15] outfront, it's the ability to change the

[45:17] sign remotely via the secure internet

[45:19] connection instead of having to go visit

[45:21] that site all the time to change out the

[45:23] advertisement.

[45:24] >> So, for example, if a local restaurant

[45:27] wanted to advertise and they wanted to

[45:30] change their daily specials from lunch

[45:31] and dinner on a daily basis, that could

[45:34] easily be done.

[45:35] >> Correct. That's a great example. For

[45:36] example, a restaurant can put out a

[45:38] breakfast advertisement in the morning,

[45:40] a lunch advertisement in the afternoon,

[45:42] and a dinner special at night. And this

[45:44] is all done remotely. Whereas a static,

[45:47] you would not be able to do this. It

[45:48] would have to be changed at the exact

[45:50] site.

[45:50] >> Or a car wash could say, "We're closed

[45:53] due to the weather."

[45:54] >> Exactly. Connect to the thunderstorms or

[45:56] something. Correct.

[45:56] >> Okay. And we're going to get into

[45:58] greater detail what you're offering by

[46:00] way of emergency as well as

[46:02] non-emergency public. But there is a

[46:04] public benefit uh because you allow

[46:08] emergency and public service advertising

[46:10] at no cost.

[46:11] >> Yes, that is correct.

[46:13] Okay. And the engineer will talk about

[46:16] it in a little more detail, but

[46:20] aside from the narrow view, which we'll

[46:22] talk about in a moment, um the photo

[46:24] cells or the the cells from the light

[46:26] are directed downward and shielded. So,

[46:30] it's not as if they're shining up or out

[46:32] to the sides. Is that correct?

[46:34] >> Yes, that's correct. There are louvers

[46:36] on the panels themselves, which our

[46:37] engineer Dan will attest to and testify

[46:39] to, that block the light from going up.

[46:41] It's directed to the roadway.

[46:43] >> And that was the word I was looking for.

[46:45] Lofer. That wasn't that

[46:46] >> I got one. I've got a question. Is there

[46:48] any data collection?

[46:50] >> We we we're going to go there.

[46:52] >> You're going to go there.

[46:53] >> So, Ke Kevin was kind enough to share

[46:55] some potential concerns and we're going

[46:57] to talk all about it. The short answer

[46:59] is no,

[47:00] >> but I want to put it in in a little more

[47:02] detail than that because I think it's an

[47:03] important issue.

[47:04] >> Okay. So um

[47:08] >> could I ask about the um conditions on

[47:11] which you can change the sign?

[47:14] >> Sure.

[47:14] >> Yeah. So you had listed some you said

[47:15] time of day about the restaurant

[47:17] specials the weather. Um what about

[47:19] audience if are you able to change it

[47:22] based on nearby audience or passing

[47:24] vehicles?

[47:25] >> So that's all going to be part of what

[47:27] we're going to talk about the tracking

[47:28] and whether or not that gathered data is

[47:30] going to be gathered best. So, if you if

[47:32] you bear with me to finish going through

[47:34] his affirmative, I promise we're going

[47:35] to address all of that.

[47:39] But this witness, of course. Yeah. No,

[47:42] not the next one. This one for sure

[47:43] because he's out front. He's the one who

[47:45] knows exactly what they do and what they

[47:46] don't do. So, we're going to go through

[47:49] that. Um, let's talk about protocol A,

[47:53] protocol B. What did we what are we

[47:56] offering to donate to the town as part

[48:00] of any approval here that we couldn't do

[48:02] with a static billboard?

[48:04] >> So, protocol A is more for the emergency

[48:06] messaging. These are emergencies, not

[48:08] really traffic issues. This is something

[48:10] that can come from the local, federal,

[48:12] or state level. Um, protocol B is more

[48:15] for the town itself. And for the town,

[48:17] we are promising one full spot on the

[48:21] digital billboard, which is every 8

[48:23] seconds

[48:25] every 64 second minute.

[48:26] >> So an 8-second spot every 64 seconds,

[48:30] which equates to 12 1.5%

[48:32] >> 12% or

[48:33] >> I'm sorry, 8 second spot every

[48:36] >> 64

[48:36] >> every 64 seconds.

[48:38] >> Seconds, which equals equates to

[48:40] >> 12%

[48:41] >> right in the settlement

[48:42] >> and 180 minutes per 24 hours. Well, not

[48:45] for 24 hours for the number of hours

[48:47] that we that we're open. Correct. That

[48:49] we're on because we're not on 24 hours.

[48:52] >> Um, however, for the emergency

[48:55] perspective, you could,

[48:58] God forbid, there was a mass emergency,

[49:00] the burrow needed to get information out

[49:01] at 3:00 in the morning, you could have

[49:03] it turned on at that hour.

[49:05] >> Yes. Correct.

[49:05] >> Okay. Um, and

[49:10] >> and Jennifer, the other emergency, I'm

[49:12] assuming I know last time we talked

[49:13] about silver alerts, Amber Alerts, those

[49:16] are the types of things,

[49:17] >> correct? Yes, that's what a protocol A

[49:19] is for. Yes. So, homeland security

[49:21] issues, FBI alerts, missing persons,

[49:23] Amber alerts, silver alerts,

[49:26] >> and um yes,

[49:29] >> in in the case of like, you know, some

[49:31] awful god-awful emergency, can

[49:35] that supersede the 1/8 of the time? So,

[49:38] something

[49:39] >> it's in addition to.

[49:40] >> Okay.

[49:41] >> The emergency is in addition to

[49:43] >> there's another

[49:44] >> Yeah. So,

[49:44] >> 911. No. So the 1/8 or the one the 12

[49:48] and.5%

[49:50] is solely automatic every cycle within a

[49:54] 24-hour period. The emergency is on top

[49:57] of that and it would supersede and

[49:59] replace any advertising.

[50:01] >> Correct. It would

[50:03] >> Okay. Um

[50:05] >> I have one I have sorry right here. I

[50:06] have one more question about that on the

[50:08] um the decision-making authority for um

[50:14] the content the 12.5% as well as the

[50:17] emergency is that exclusively Redbank

[50:19] Burrow or would that ever be county of

[50:22] Mammoth State of New Jersey etc.

[50:24] >> The 12% is Redbank Burrow and only

[50:27] Redbank Burrow. You're having ClamFest,

[50:31] >> that's what goes there. You're doing

[50:32] something on the riverfront, that's what

[50:33] goes there. you're having a townwide

[50:37] celebration. That's what goes there. As

[50:39] it relates to the emergency, I believe

[50:42] any of the emergency personnel such as

[50:46] state police, the county sheriff's

[50:48] office,

[50:49] >> any any municipal or governing body or

[50:54] OEM, it would have to be some official.

[50:57] Exactly. And in those cases, that would

[50:59] go they would go directly to outfront.

[51:01] They wouldn't necessarily need to go

[51:02] through Red Bank to then contact

[51:04] >> I think they would. So, it's my

[51:06] understanding, correct me if I'm wrong,

[51:07] that there would be a police contact or

[51:09] a burrow contact with regard to

[51:11] emergency messaging and if you don't

[51:13] have a a personal contact with the state

[51:16] police or the like, they would go

[51:18] through the Redbank Police Department.

[51:20] >> Correct. There would be a code assigned

[51:21] to the designate, usually it is the

[51:23] chief of police. They call the 247

[51:25] hotline. They provide that code. They

[51:28] tell us what the emergency is. We get

[51:30] that message up immediately and it

[51:32] supersedes all the advertising and it

[51:34] runs for one hour.

[51:35] >> Great.

[51:36] >> And if they call back in the next hour

[51:37] and it's still an emergency, then it

[51:39] runs for another hour.

[51:40] >> Great. Thank you.

[51:42] >> Uh, now let's talk about the

[51:43] non-emergency. So, I think we gave a

[51:45] little bit of it away already, but what

[51:48] kinds of messages are for the

[51:49] non-emergency and how do those get used?

[51:53] So similar to the protocol A there will

[51:56] be a town designate could be someone

[51:58] from the recck department it could be um

[52:00] the business administrator we would

[52:04] provide again 12 and a half% of the

[52:06] billboard for these town it could be

[52:08] events for the town it could be the

[52:09] fourth of July celebration it could be

[52:11] October Fest that's coming up

[52:13] >> could just be welcome to Redbank

[52:15] >> exactly anything for a public message

[52:16] that's not an emergency uh you reach out

[52:19] to us via the hotline and an email uh

[52:22] you let us know what you'd like to put

[52:23] up. If you prefer to use your own image,

[52:27] we'll put that up. If you need us to

[52:29] design an image for you, we will work

[52:31] with you free of charge to design that

[52:33] image and that message will go up on the

[52:36] billboard.

[52:36] >> So essentially, there'd be a municipal

[52:38] design who'll be the main contact and

[52:40] then anyone in the town that wants to

[52:42] have a public message put up who do

[52:44] that. Now, in addition to the town, you

[52:46] also often you also offer non-forprofit

[52:51] advertising at no cost as well.

[52:53] >> That is correct.

[52:54] >> Okay. And let me move into what was

[52:56] moved in as A17.

[52:58] >> And just one point though, the for the

[53:00] protocol B, the ads from the town or the

[53:03] images, messages uh need to be

[53:05] politically neutral and they cannot be

[53:07] monetized in any way or bartered.

[53:10] So, we had handed out the public benefit

[53:12] and I'd asked the board to just take a

[53:14] quick look at what we moved in as A17

[53:17] and I'm just going to walk you through

[53:19] it if you don't mind. So, the first is

[53:20] the emergency messaging and that gives a

[53:23] sample of the type of messages. So, the

[53:25] first one is an FBI announcement.

[53:27] >> Correct.

[53:29] >> The second one is an Amber Alert

[53:32] and then they're public service

[53:33] announcements where for example that's a

[53:35] nonforprofit, the Valerie fund. So, you

[53:38] donate that. Correct. That's all

[53:39] donated. Correct. As well as Makea-Wish

[53:41] for New Jersey.

[53:43] >> The next page we have um Community Food

[53:46] Bank of New Jersey and the Boys and

[53:49] Girls Club of New Jersey as well. These

[53:50] are all partners with Alfront. Uh that

[53:52] time is donated to. This is another one,

[53:55] the New Jersey Move Over Slow Down Law.

[53:59] And

[53:59] >> and then on page starting on page 12,

[54:02] you show the types of um the types of of

[54:06] billboard ads that a municipality might

[54:08] post.

[54:09] >> Correct. So this is relating to protocol

[54:11] B that we just spoke about messages for

[54:12] the townships and burrows themselves. So

[54:14] for this one, this is Stafford using it

[54:17] uh for their help its people. Uh the

[54:19] next page is Dville. Uh they're a big

[54:21] user of the billboard. They like to

[54:23] promote their downtown and the

[54:25] revitalization of it. So, for example,

[54:27] River Center could do a similar type um

[54:31] advertising package through the burrow

[54:33] to publicize any events that might be

[54:35] happening down at the riverfront.

[54:37] >> Absolutely.

[54:39] >> Okay.

[54:40] >> And the last one is another one that the

[54:42] township of ocean uses for their pool

[54:44] and tennis club uh looking to sign up

[54:46] today. So, this is just some of the

[54:48] messaging that we do for local townships

[54:49] around the areas and throughout New

[54:51] Jersey. And as we said, we're offering

[54:53] Redbank, Burough Red Bank, uh, a full

[54:56] dedicated spot on the billboard for

[54:58] these.

[54:58] >> Okay. I I want to take a minute and I

[55:00] apologize, Mr. Gil. I'm going to do the

[55:02] other portion about the tracking last

[55:04] because I feel like there's going to be

[55:05] the most amount of questions for that.

[55:06] So, um, I just want to go through some

[55:10] of the, um, conditions that we had

[55:12] promised Kevin we would stipulate to on

[55:14] the record. So,

[55:17] one of the things we didn't talk about

[55:19] yet and that is on the exhibit marked in

[55:23] as A1,

[55:25] in addition to uh removing the billboard

[55:29] at 187 Riverside and forever giving up

[55:33] any rights to a billboard in that

[55:35] location. We have also agreed to uh get

[55:39] rid of eight other billboard faces and

[55:42] not in the Redbank area. Kevin, I didn't

[55:44] correct you then, but I'll say it now.

[55:45] It's not in the Redbank area. It's in

[55:46] Redbank. Not in Shrewsbury, not in Titan

[55:50] Falls, not in Middletown, right in

[55:51] Redbank. So, there's eight different

[55:54] billboards that are going to be removed,

[55:56] which Dan will go into.

[55:58] >> But I want to make sure. So, I'm going

[55:59] to ask you some questions, and I just

[56:00] like you to answer them.

[56:01] >> Sure.

[56:02] >> Does Outfront have the full and

[56:04] unfettered lease rights and legal

[56:06] authority to remove these billboards and

[56:08] their support structures and abandon

[56:10] their use?

[56:10] >> Yes.

[56:12] Does outfront need affirmative approval

[56:14] from the landlords to remove these

[56:16] billboards?

[56:16] >> No.

[56:17] >> Because you actually own the billboard

[56:18] structure. Is that correct?

[56:19] >> Correct.

[56:20] >> Okay. And do you have lease rights to

[56:22] these billboards and they cannot and

[56:25] will not be assigned to any other

[56:26] individual or entity. They will be

[56:28] extinguished.

[56:29] >> Yes, that is correct.

[56:30] >> Okay. And for a period of 7 years from

[56:34] the trigger date in the um in the

[56:36] settlement which I'll go into in a

[56:37] moment uh outfront agrees that for 7

[56:41] years there will be a moratorum on

[56:43] conversion of any static billboards to

[56:45] digital.

[56:46] >> Correct.

[56:46] >> Okay. So recognizing that if they ever

[56:49] wanted to convert a static to digital,

[56:52] they'd have to come back to the board

[56:53] for the use variance and go through the

[56:55] process, but they're committing they

[56:57] won't even consider filing an

[56:58] application for a minimum of seven

[57:00] years.

[57:03] >> Um

[57:04] >> I have a question about that one.

[57:06] >> Yeah.

[57:06] >> Um we have an ordinance that says

[57:09] existing billboards may not be converted

[57:11] to a different type of billboard or

[57:12] sign. And so that that behavior that

[57:15] converting is already prohibited by a

[57:18] correct we have. And so could you speak

[57:20] to what if if it's already prohibited

[57:22] then what is the benefit of the

[57:23] seven-year

[57:24] >> the benefit of is it because any

[57:25] applicant can file a use variance

[57:27] application to seek approval for a

[57:29] prohibited use. So what we're offering

[57:32] and what was asked by Kevin was that we

[57:34] commit that we will not seek to do that

[57:37] via application to the zoning board for

[57:39] use variance.

[57:41] >> Okay.

[57:46] I have a quick question on that as well.

[57:47] Um that pertains to all uh all land

[57:52] within Redbank and there's no exclusion

[57:54] for say like land owned by NJ Transit or

[57:57] this is a county road so it's not

[57:59] technically Red Bank.

[58:00] >> That's any billboard we have. We will

[58:02] not and cannot make an application to

[58:04] convert it to digital.

[58:06] >> Got it.

[58:06] >> And how many billboards are currently

[58:07] does Alfront have in Redbank?

[58:09] Approximately before we remove him about

[58:12] 20 or 21 I think from the list correct

[58:16] >> about 20 or 21

[58:17] >> but that's faces

[58:18] >> faces correct

[58:26] no it's I said eight plus Riverside

[58:29] which makes it nine

[58:32] I was distinguishing between them

[58:33] because and again it the the seven-year

[58:37] moratorum just so the board understands

[58:38] that came out request of the board with

[58:41] regard to that that was part of the

[58:42] negotiated settlement as I understand

[58:44] it. Um

[58:47] so

[58:49] >> of those nine faces that would be

[58:51] removed, how many um do you already have

[58:54] a permit for the conversion to digital?

[58:56] We know the the Riverside one, right?

[58:58] Which which other ones?

[59:00] >> Uh I believe we have permits on two of

[59:02] those. Uh the Oakland Street and the

[59:05] Riverside Avenue one.

[59:09] Okay. So, now let's talk about tracking

[59:12] using gathered information. So, Kevin

[59:14] was kind enough to share some questions

[59:16] for me. So, I'm going to go through them

[59:18] with you.

[59:18] >> Okay.

[59:19] >> Um, so will our digital billboard have

[59:22] any type of device installed for data

[59:25] collection?

[59:25] >> No. The billboard is just the structure

[59:27] itself. There is no type of hardware,

[59:30] sensor, device, anything on the

[59:31] billboard.

[59:32] >> So, no sensor, no beacon, no receiver,

[59:34] no data collection or hardware of any

[59:36] kind. Absolutely not.

[59:38] >> Will there be anything on the billboard

[59:40] that will be able to detect, receive, or

[59:42] record anything from a passing phone,

[59:45] vehicle, or person?

[59:46] >> Absolutely not. Hold on. Just say it

[59:48] again. uh detect, receive, record

[59:52] uh information

[59:54] >> mobile device or personal data from any

[59:57] passer by or and and I think you'd

[1:00:00] indicated we we have about 3,500

[1:00:02] billboards throughout and of them 117

[1:00:05] static and digital. Do any of your

[1:00:08] billboards have this technology?

[1:00:10] >> No.

[1:00:11] >> And as you said, the structure is

[1:00:13] display only, no different than a sign

[1:00:16] anywhere else in the burrow.

[1:00:17] >> Absolutely. That is correct.

[1:00:19] >> Okay. So,

[1:00:21] can you tell me about Smart Scout and

[1:00:23] whether or not we'll be enrolled in

[1:00:25] that?

[1:00:25] >> So, from my understanding, Smart Scout

[1:00:28] is a data management platform for our

[1:00:30] out ofome assets, our billboards that is

[1:00:32] currently being phased out.

[1:00:35] Correct. Smart Scout is an outfront data

[1:00:38] management platform system for our out

[1:00:40] ofome assets, which are our billboards,

[1:00:43] and it's currently being phased out. on

[1:00:46] Smart Media was a brand designation that

[1:00:48] was Alfront's network of displays,

[1:00:51] digital displays.

[1:00:52] >> So, this wasn't collecting information.

[1:00:54] This was

[1:00:56] >> it was just

[1:00:58] types of sales tools that our company

[1:01:00] uses. It's platforms. There's nothing

[1:01:02] from the billboard that's collecting

[1:01:04] information.

[1:01:04] >> Nothing to enroll in or anything like

[1:01:06] that.

[1:01:06] >> Correct. There's nothing.

[1:01:08] >> So, now I want to talk to you think

[1:01:09] about what's at the heart of Mr. Gil's

[1:01:11] question. Um, are you familiar with the

[1:01:14] term geo fencing?

[1:01:18] » Yes, I am familiar.

[1:01:20] >> Okay. And in simplest terms, are there

[1:01:23] thirdparty analytic services that

[1:01:26] collect the type of information that Mr.

[1:01:28] Mass and and Mr. uh Gild Day were asking

[1:01:30] us about?

[1:01:31] >> Yes.

[1:01:32] >> Okay. We're not a part of that in any

[1:01:34] way, shape, or form. That's all being

[1:01:36] collected today.

[1:01:37] >> That is correct.

[1:01:38] >> Okay. And some of the ways that that is

[1:01:40] used, and I'm going to give you some

[1:01:42] examples. If I have a um Starbucks

[1:01:46] account and I am near a Starbucks,

[1:01:52] if Starbucks is enrolled with any of

[1:01:54] these third party uh platforms, they

[1:01:57] might know that my cell phone is near a

[1:01:59] Starbucks and Neptune and might give me

[1:02:02] a targeted ad to say, "Hey, come here's

[1:02:04] 20% off."

[1:02:05] >> Yes, that is correct. If there is a

[1:02:08] bakery in Redbank, just a regular old

[1:02:10] building, and the bakery sees that I'm a

[1:02:14] regular customer there, based on the

[1:02:16] fact that I join their Facebook page,

[1:02:18] and they know that I'm in the area

[1:02:20] because my cell phone is there and this

[1:02:22] third party tracks these things, they

[1:02:25] could use that information to send me a

[1:02:27] text and say, "Hey, come in and we're

[1:02:28] having a special."

[1:02:29] >> Yes, that is correct. And that is

[1:02:31] something that businesses are doing

[1:02:32] throughout the United States

[1:02:35] through third-party providers,

[1:02:38] >> correct?

[1:02:38] >> And

[1:02:40] for example, you uh order something on

[1:02:43] Amazon and you get a text that says your

[1:02:48] Amazon delivery is three stops away. Is

[1:02:51] that because they track every single

[1:02:54] driver because they potentially set up a

[1:02:55] geoence to know where it is in relation

[1:02:57] to my delivery? I'd say they probably

[1:02:59] set up a geoence,

[1:03:00] >> right? So

[1:03:04] there is there are different analytic

[1:03:06] services that any business or any

[1:03:08] individual can subscribe to and then use

[1:03:10] that for targeting advertising.

[1:03:12] >> Correct.

[1:03:12] >> And certainly because any other business

[1:03:15] does in the competitive commercial

[1:03:17] world, you would participate in that as

[1:03:20] well in order to have targeted

[1:03:23] advertising.

[1:03:24] >> Correct.

[1:03:24] >> Okay. So to how would you do that? I I

[1:03:27] have some questions. I mean

[1:03:29] >> I have some questions. Go ahead. So I

[1:03:31] think the first thing is you said smart

[1:03:32] scout is being phased out.

[1:03:34] >> Yes, that's

[1:03:34] >> okay. So it would be fair for us to

[1:03:36] apply a condition that says that you

[1:03:38] would not use any like there would be

[1:03:40] >> yes

[1:03:41] >> future in the future we would not allow

[1:03:43] for any type of data collection from any

[1:03:46] type of hardware or sensor or video with

[1:03:49] on the billboard. That would be

[1:03:50] something you

[1:03:51] >> happy to accept that um I want to

[1:03:53] understand what you're talking about

[1:03:54] regarding geo fencing. So you said

[1:03:57] third-party platforms. Are you talking

[1:03:59] about thirdparty data? I don't or are

[1:04:01] you talking about platforms that um

[1:04:04] external companies have and hosts in the

[1:04:06] cloud that you subscribe to? Like I'd

[1:04:08] love to understand the disc.

[1:04:09] >> Sure. So there's a company called Placer

[1:04:12] AI. Uh they're an analytic service that

[1:04:14] relies on aggregated and consented

[1:04:16] mobile location data. So from my

[1:04:19] understanding, if you have a weather app

[1:04:21] on your phone with a GPS, you've

[1:04:23] consented to your location. Now all this

[1:04:26] is anonymous and this is just my

[1:04:28] understanding. I'm not

[1:04:29] >> because we don't do this. We just are

[1:04:31] able to gather information from these

[1:04:33] companies.

[1:04:34] >> I understand. But you said that geo

[1:04:35] fencing you understand is like a

[1:04:36] standard business practice and outfront

[1:04:38] would engage in geofencing. I'm really

[1:04:40] interested in how you can apply a

[1:04:42] geoence if you're not collecting network

[1:04:44] data on where an asset is. And by asset

[1:04:46] I mean your mobile device. So the way

[1:04:48] geo fencing works is you have there's network data that's on an ass on

[1:04:53] a device on hardware and if you're going

[1:04:56] to apply a geoence you need to be able

[1:04:59] to know what data is passing through the

[1:05:01] perimeter of the geoence. So I guess I'm just curious about how you would

[1:05:06] have geo fencing but not um be

[1:05:09] collecting data like what would be the

[1:05:10] purpose of geoencing?

[1:05:12] >> And this is just my understanding

[1:05:13] because we don't we don't do it. So it's

[1:05:15] my understanding that for example with

[1:05:17] the AI analytics y

[1:05:20] >> you would say

[1:05:22] we'd be interested in you know if if

[1:05:26] someone who

[1:05:28] likes coffee is within a mile of our

[1:05:31] billboard and so they would

[1:05:35] tell us when someone who likes coffee is

[1:05:37] within a mile of our billboard.

[1:05:38] >> But you all don't engage in that

[1:05:39] practice. Absolutely. And you'd be very

[1:05:41] comfortable putting in a condition that

[1:05:42] says but you would not ever use any

[1:05:44] first party or third party data to

[1:05:45] personalize advertising.

[1:05:46] >> No, no, no. The what I had indicated was

[1:05:49] just like any other business has the

[1:05:52] ability to use third party data to

[1:05:54] target advertising.

[1:05:57] >> But how I I guess I'm confused about h

[1:06:01] how could you personalize it if you're

[1:06:04] not collecting data on who's in your

[1:06:07] geoence? So you have third party data on

[1:06:09] me. I like Starbucks. So I'm driving by

[1:06:12] and you you flash up a Starbucks ad. How

[1:06:15] do you know to put a Starbucks ad up if

[1:06:17] you're not collecting data on the fact

[1:06:19] that I'm within the geo?

[1:06:20] >> So it's not you personally. So I think

[1:06:22] what what the issue is is let's say for

[1:06:24] example

[1:06:26] we ask place or AI

[1:06:29] how many people drive by that like

[1:06:31] coffee and they say none.

[1:06:35] >> Okay. So, Outfront Media does use third

[1:06:38] party data to personalize.

[1:06:39] >> Correct. Which is what I indicated from

[1:06:42] the beginning, just like every other

[1:06:44] business in modern times does.

[1:06:46] >> Yeah.

[1:06:46] >> So, just like Starbucks, when they know

[1:06:50] that I'm within a mile of a Starbucks,

[1:06:52] lo and behold, I'll get a popup ad on

[1:06:54] Facebook. But it's not just like that,

[1:06:56] though, because Starbucks

[1:06:57] >> to me,

[1:06:58] >> right? But Starbucks, the way Starbucks

[1:07:00] does that is they're reacting to the

[1:07:01] fact that they know that you personally

[1:07:04] are within. So they're using first party

[1:07:07] data which is distinct from third party

[1:07:10] data. So it's not So that Starbucks

[1:07:12] example is not a good example.

[1:07:14] >> Well then I apologize.

[1:07:15] >> Oh no it's okay. I just want to make

[1:07:16] sure I understand.

[1:07:16] >> I have limited knowledge on this. Y

[1:07:19] >> and this issue was only shared with us

[1:07:21] this question three days ago. So we did

[1:07:24] as much as we could to get you the

[1:07:25] answer. But no we're not using first.

[1:07:28] We're not sending things to your phone.

[1:07:29] >> You're not collecting data. Yeah. No

[1:07:33] we're not sending to your phone. None of

[1:07:34] that.

[1:07:35] >> Okay.

[1:07:35] >> If we find from this third party data

[1:07:37] that a lot of a a lot of uh

[1:07:42] >> soccer moms drive by our

[1:07:44] >> promote the soccer to do a soccer thing.

[1:07:46] >> Yeah. Sure.

[1:07:47] >> No first party, nothing targeted to an

[1:07:49] individual. Okay. It's more gathering

[1:07:51] the data. So, for example, if an

[1:07:53] advertiser for a pizza place comes in,

[1:07:56] we can say, "Yeah, we have people that

[1:07:58] like to go out to eat a lot."

[1:07:59] >> You know, that kind of thing. Nothing

[1:08:02] individual, nothing first party targeted

[1:08:04] that we can commit to 150%. We don't do

[1:08:08] it now. We have no intention of ever

[1:08:09] doing it because we don't have the

[1:08:11] ability to collect that information.

[1:08:13] >> Okay.

[1:08:13] >> Correct. It's just a display. It's just

[1:08:15] a structure. There's no hardware or

[1:08:17] devices on it whatsoever.

[1:08:19] >> And perhaps when this hearing is over,

[1:08:20] personally, you can

[1:08:22] >> share some of your insight a little more

[1:08:23] with me because I don't understand it to

[1:08:25] the level that you do. So, thank you.

[1:08:27] Yeah, one one maybe educational just

[1:08:29] point for the group on Placer AI. Just

[1:08:31] reading from a website, Placer AI is a

[1:08:33] cutting edge online service that uses

[1:08:35] anonymously sourced mobile location data

[1:08:38] to calculate the number of active cell

[1:08:39] phones in any locality during a

[1:08:41] specified time. That is from the

[1:08:43] Riverenter announcement announcing that

[1:08:46] River Center is using Placer AI to track

[1:08:48] footfall in Redbank. So Placer AI is

[1:08:52] being used already by the burrow just to

[1:08:54] make sure everybody understands. No. And

[1:08:56] I appreciate that.

[1:08:57] >> Yeah. I think one of the

[1:08:58] >> And just Mr. Haritz, just you you took

[1:09:00] that. Oh, Mr. Fitzger, you're right.

[1:09:03] Well, I know he's not Anna. That I know.

[1:09:06] >> Um, Mr. Fitzgerald, I apologize. You

[1:09:09] took that from which website? Just so

[1:09:11] the record's clear.

[1:09:17] Okay. And Redbank River Center is part

[1:09:20] of of Redbank. So, the burrow the burrow

[1:09:22] is geo fencing.

[1:09:23] >> Yes.

[1:09:24] >> Okay. Thank you. I wish I had known that

[1:09:27] before coming in. I could have made this

[1:09:29] a lot easier on all of us.

[1:09:32] >> So I understand that um the we are doing

[1:09:35] targeted uh advertisement placement. It

[1:09:38] just happens via the third party and and

[1:09:40] it's anonymized. Right.

[1:09:41] >> Correct.

[1:09:41] >> But one of my uh concerns with the use

[1:09:45] of this site versus some of the other

[1:09:47] examples that were given is when I have

[1:09:50] um and to your point, every business is

[1:09:52] doing this, right? like I work for

[1:09:54] business, they're doing it and um it

[1:09:57] when you receive usually when you

[1:09:59] receive an ad say on your personal

[1:10:01] device, the experience is personal,

[1:10:02] right? Like I'm looking at my device, I

[1:10:04] get a targeted ad. We've all had the

[1:10:06] experience of getting a targeted ad

[1:10:07] that's like really kind of feels creepy

[1:10:09] because it's so well targeted. It works

[1:10:10] very well, right?

[1:10:12] >> Um but it's one thing when it's on my

[1:10:15] phone and it's another thing when it's

[1:10:16] on a very large site. And that's where I

[1:10:18] think the privacy concern comes from

[1:10:21] because if you're and I understand the d

[1:10:23] the targeting is anonym based on

[1:10:25] anonymized data. If I'm on the turnpike

[1:10:28] there's thousands of cars passing by the

[1:10:29] digital billboards there. You know

[1:10:31] you're one of person in a sea of

[1:10:34] targets. In a very small town when I'm

[1:10:37] at this intersection or or when I'm

[1:10:39] driving by the proposed site I may be

[1:10:42] one of five one of 20 cars. And then for

[1:10:46] a an advertisement to be targeted to me

[1:10:48] in that scenario, it feels a bit more

[1:10:51] invasive. It's like putting my browser

[1:10:53] history on a screen.

[1:10:55] >> I I don't think it's going to be

[1:10:57] targeted to you. I think it's going to

[1:10:58] be targeted to certain demographics.

[1:11:01] Whereas the Facebook ads are if I search

[1:11:04] pink sweater, every Facebook ad I get is

[1:11:07] going to be about pink sweaters going

[1:11:08] forward. As if they heard me. If I say

[1:11:10] something to my friends about a

[1:11:11] restaurant, it'll all show up there. I

[1:11:14] think if I understand it because the way

[1:11:16] that this programming works, it's not as

[1:11:17] if a um it's not as if a advertiser

[1:11:21] calls and says, "Hey, this popped up, so

[1:11:24] can you quick run an ad because Mr.

[1:11:26] Gild's driving by?" These are these are

[1:11:29] pre-established

[1:11:30] advertisements, right? It sends my

[1:11:32] profile over, right? Like it's, you

[1:11:35] know, this is a

[1:11:36] >> it's not moment. It's it it isn't done

[1:11:39] >> instantaneously. like it won't if you

[1:11:42] drive by it it's not going to put up an

[1:11:43] ad that it potentially

[1:11:45] >> today but we were asking to be grant a

[1:11:46] variance that is indefinite and

[1:11:48] technology keeps changing

[1:11:50] >> we are not so again we are not proposing

[1:11:53] any tracking technology on this

[1:11:56] billboard

[1:11:57] >> at all

[1:11:57] >> I understand

[1:11:58] >> so whatever these third party

[1:12:01] organizations are going to be regulated

[1:12:03] and I spoke at length with Kevin about

[1:12:05] this whatever state and federal laws are

[1:12:07] in place and privacy laws so again we're

[1:12:10] not targeting to individuals. We are not

[1:12:12] going to know on our billboard when

[1:12:14] you're coming by. So, let's put that ad

[1:12:17] up. What we will know is is that

[1:12:21] this number of people went by, so we

[1:12:23] think it's a great idea to advertise

[1:12:25] this.

[1:12:26] >> So, this I I think this is a plausible

[1:12:28] scenario. If

[1:12:30] you could receive information that um

[1:12:33] you know enough the audience in the area

[1:12:36] at a given time um has this skin

[1:12:39] condition so you should advertise you

[1:12:42] know this medicine to them. That would

[1:12:43] be the algorithm determining that and

[1:12:47] the audience is subject to how many

[1:12:49] people are in that geoence. And so my

[1:12:52] point is in a small town that can be a

[1:12:55] concern if it says this audience and

[1:12:57] that audience is 10 people has this

[1:13:00] characteristic.

[1:13:01] >> So I guess the the question that I have

[1:13:04] in return is if it's fully anonymous

[1:13:08] and it is not individually or first

[1:13:10] party targeted.

[1:13:12] How is that concerning? Wouldn't you

[1:13:14] want the advertising that you see to be

[1:13:16] targeted to what you're interested in or

[1:13:18] what you're looking for? I mean, isn't

[1:13:20] that the very purpose of advertising to

[1:13:22] reach a certain audience? So,

[1:13:25] this is just the way that we achieve it

[1:13:28] like any other business. You know,

[1:13:32] Kevin, may I quote you from our

[1:13:35] conversation or no, you'd prefer me not

[1:13:36] to?

[1:13:36] >> You absolutely can. I don't know what I

[1:13:38] said, but yes.

[1:13:39] But he when we discussed this and I

[1:13:41] explained to him what it is, he goes,

[1:13:42] "Well, if all businesses are able to use

[1:13:44] it, you'd be crazy not to

[1:13:47] as long as you stay within the confines

[1:13:49] of the legal parameters for this type of

[1:13:52] use. So,

[1:13:56] we're not asking you to we're asking you

[1:13:58] for a digital billboard. We're not

[1:14:00] asking you to allow us to put up

[1:14:01] tracking information of any way, shape,

[1:14:04] or form. But certainly I would think

[1:14:06] that if you were going to grant this

[1:14:08] approval, you couldn't discriminate

[1:14:09] against us when every other business in

[1:14:12] town is allowed to do it as well.

[1:14:14] >> Well, I think it's it's the use. It's

[1:14:16] the site and the use that feels

[1:14:18] different, right? Because if other

[1:14:19] businesses are sending me personalized

[1:14:21] experiences on my personal device,

[1:14:23] that's different from a public

[1:14:25] experience.

[1:14:25] >> We are not sending you personalized.

[1:14:27] >> I know that. Yeah. And I would argue

[1:14:29] that a digital billboard is not

[1:14:31] personalized based on the amount of

[1:14:33] traffic that goes back and forth on uh

[1:14:37] Newman Springs Road. So it's not

[1:14:39] personalized. It's not first party and

[1:14:45] >> I am offer kind of just to like deepen

[1:14:48] that line of questioning though. So I'm

[1:14:49] curious about what kind of categories

[1:14:50] you all use for the third party data.

[1:14:52] Obviously mobile location data which I

[1:14:54] think we've established yeah pretty much

[1:14:56] everyone does it. I'm assuming

[1:14:57] demographic segments because we

[1:14:58] mentioned soccer moms. Um device

[1:15:01] identifiers, household data, um gender,

[1:15:07] age, income, like what what do we have a

[1:15:11] sense for that?

[1:15:13] >> I I and I'm also assuming that it is

[1:15:16] specific to the location. It's not like

[1:15:18] it's specific to Redbank. So Red Bank's

[1:15:20] going to see something different from

[1:15:21] what like

[1:15:22] >> Well, every billboard and every

[1:15:23] municipality is different depending on

[1:15:25] because the at the end of the day,

[1:15:28] >> we aren't generating ads and we are not

[1:15:31] um we're not the ones making them and

[1:15:33] >> deciding you're just getting the data

[1:15:35] and then

[1:15:36] >> No, no, we're not getting the data.

[1:15:38] >> I mean, for the third party data that

[1:15:39] you all

[1:15:40] >> Well, we we gather the data and so when

[1:15:42] people come to us and want to advertise

[1:15:44] with us, we're able to say

[1:15:46] >> we have this many people go by Correct.

[1:15:49] Yeah, we're just putting the image up.

[1:15:51] We're not

[1:15:51] >> Yeah, we're putting the image up based

[1:15:53] on what the advertisers want to put

[1:15:55] there. It very well may be that every

[1:15:57] that the advertisers themselves

[1:15:59] subscribe to this.

[1:16:00] >> Yeah.

[1:16:01] >> And say, I want to put this ad up at

[1:16:03] 5:00 because it's the busiest time. But

[1:16:06] again, I don't have specific details as

[1:16:08] to this because it's really not related

[1:16:11] anything other than business practices.

[1:16:12] It's not specific to the billboard use.

[1:16:15] Well, I think that it's really relevant

[1:16:17] because there's a lot of established New

[1:16:18] Jersey case law around privacy and

[1:16:21] consent and some of the characteristics

[1:16:24] for data categories are perfectly

[1:16:26] adequate under New Jersey state law. Um,

[1:16:29] but there are other categories that are

[1:16:30] not. So, I think that for due diligence

[1:16:32] for the town of Redbank, we want to make

[1:16:33] sure that our citizens are protected

[1:16:34] around what categories constitute

[1:16:36] private. So what I can commit to is

[1:16:38] >> is that we will abide by the state law

[1:16:41] and the federal law as it relates to

[1:16:43] privacy.

[1:16:44] >> 100% would commit to that

[1:16:46] >> and and local if there are local

[1:16:48] >> of course if there was anything but 100%

[1:16:51] we would commit to it.

[1:16:52] >> Okay. Great.

[1:16:53] >> And we would have to because again it

[1:16:55] would affect our DOT permitting. It

[1:16:56] didn't.

[1:16:57] >> Yep. Okay.

[1:17:00] So essentially what happens with these

[1:17:02] billboards is you have a mix of ads that

[1:17:05] you know there's a lot of auto people on

[1:17:07] that street and so probably people doing

[1:17:09] auto ads for the Volvo whatever Nissan

[1:17:12] but also within it you would also might

[1:17:14] have customized ads where you'd be

[1:17:18] looking for advertisers that are hitting

[1:17:19] certain demographics. So you'd have a

[1:17:21] mix of of ads. Some would be specific

[1:17:24] businesses because they're there. Some

[1:17:26] would be trying to reach the demographic

[1:17:28] that's driving by. So again it's it's not as targeted as it's being

[1:17:33] described for example and and without

[1:17:36] admittedly

[1:17:37] >> without understanding the depth in which

[1:17:39] this is done one will commit to it but

[1:17:42] it's not instantaneous. So for example

[1:17:44] if if an advertiser comes and says I'm

[1:17:47] interested in advertising with you then

[1:17:49] you could say well here's this data that

[1:17:51] was collected by someone else for you to

[1:17:54] analyze and decide if you want to

[1:17:55] advertise with us or not. So it again

[1:17:59] I agree with Mr. Gilde. It'll be

[1:18:01] everchanging. The laws will be ever

[1:18:03] changing. But what we can commit to is

[1:18:05] one we will abide by any of the

[1:18:07] regulations as it relates to that and

[1:18:09] privacy. And we will commit that we will

[1:18:12] do no such gathering of any information

[1:18:15] certainly not on our billboard

[1:18:17] structure.

[1:18:20] » To to maybe put it a different way or or

[1:18:23] get a little different perspective on

[1:18:26] the information. I think we're hoping to

[1:18:27] understand. So for a normal paid

[1:18:29] advertiser, so a lot of the billboards

[1:18:31] around town right now, like a doctor's

[1:18:32] office or a realtor who is here, so

[1:18:34] assume a realtor takes out an ad for

[1:18:37] 12.5% of the time on this digital

[1:18:40] billboard. What are some of the data and

[1:18:42] insights they will receive about the

[1:18:44] performance of their advertising

[1:18:46] campaign at the end of that campaign,

[1:18:48] say for a month it runs? Is it number of

[1:18:50] impressions? Is it

[1:18:52] >> my understanding that it's number of

[1:18:54] impressions? I'm not involved in the

[1:18:56] sales department. Uh I'm just in the

[1:18:57] real estate department. So, but I

[1:18:59] believe correct that it's impressions.

[1:19:02] That's what they're looking for.

[1:19:03] >> You paid us, you know, whatever $3,000.

[1:19:05] It ran for a month and 50,000 people saw

[1:19:08] it. We know that 50,000 number because

[1:19:12] that's one time we had someone track how

[1:19:16] many cars go by on a daily basis. And we

[1:19:17] did that times 30. is that 50,000

[1:19:20] generated by Placer AI and these

[1:19:22] anonymized

[1:19:23] um data points coming in and out and

[1:19:26] that changes in real time. I think maybe

[1:19:27] we just want to understand what level of

[1:19:30] data an advertiser might receive and

[1:19:32] therefore could optimize off of and it's

[1:19:34] okay if we don't have more detailed

[1:19:36] information right now, but I think

[1:19:37] that's just what maybe the group is

[1:19:38] looking to understand more.

[1:19:41] >> Okay.

[1:19:42] >> Yeah. I don't I don't like I'm I'm not

[1:19:43] involved in the sales and

[1:19:45] >> so at minimum number of impressions how

[1:19:47] many people saw your ad while it ran

[1:19:49] >> right and again

[1:19:54] we don't want to be handicapped

[1:19:56] as to be not not competitive in any type

[1:20:00] of industry. So, uh-oh,

[1:20:04] we're not collecting anything. Just like

[1:20:07] if I have a website, there's a record of

[1:20:09] who came to the website and who didn't

[1:20:11] come to the website, how many viewers

[1:20:12] you had. That's essentially what's, as I

[1:20:16] understand it, what's happening here.

[1:20:18] Um, but again, we will abide by whatever

[1:20:21] the legal requirements are as it relates

[1:20:23] to this data and the privacy not only of

[1:20:25] the citizens of Redbank for, but for

[1:20:27] anybody who's coming by the sign. And it and it's no different than than a

[1:20:33] non-static than a than a non-digital

[1:20:35] billboard. That could be done. It's

[1:20:38] likely being done even on static

[1:20:39] billboards. You get an understanding as

[1:20:41] to who's coming by the billboard. So

[1:20:43] then when you want to sell it for the

[1:20:44] month, you can say this is the number of

[1:20:46] people who pass by.

[1:20:48] >> Correct. It's again, it is just a

[1:20:49] structure. It's just a screen that's

[1:20:52] putting out an image where the canvas

[1:20:54] and the advertisers are the painters. I think it is different though because

[1:20:57] you can change it every 8 seconds which

[1:20:59] allows you to respond dynamically to the

[1:21:02] audience versus making these decisions

[1:21:04] well in advance as you do with the

[1:21:05] static billboard.

[1:21:06] >> So as Jen said, there's nothing that

[1:21:09] we're collecting from the billboard

[1:21:10] itself. So we don't know, we can't just

[1:21:12] automatically put out a new image

[1:21:14] because you drove past it or someone

[1:21:16] else drove past it. These ads are

[1:21:18] purchased in advance by the advertisers.

[1:21:21] They're not purchased split seconds

[1:21:23] prior to someone driving by.

[1:21:25] But that's a matter of like your policy

[1:21:27] and procedures and what the board is

[1:21:29] being asked to consider

[1:21:31] >> is a large sign that is connected to be

[1:21:36] remotely controlled by people or

[1:21:38] algorithms or AI or etc. Right? So I

[1:21:41] mean would we have to put in our

[1:21:42] conditions that you know that's how you

[1:21:44] sell ads from now and forever?

[1:21:47] >> I I don't understand. I think the

[1:21:50] question is kind of if the third party

[1:21:52] data changes because it's it's

[1:21:54] programmatic, right? And it's

[1:21:56] increasingly AI driven. So you have

[1:21:58] information about who's passing by

[1:22:01] if you're and you mentioned there's no

[1:22:03] real time. So I'll I'll assume

[1:22:04] >> as far as I understand. Okay.

[1:22:06] >> No, there's no real.

[1:22:07] >> Okay. But so if the third party data

[1:22:09] changes because it's the holidays and so

[1:22:11] all of a sudden a lot of people are in

[1:22:13] from out of town and you know does that

[1:22:16] change what the advertising content is

[1:22:18] displayed in real time or does it just

[1:22:19] inform advanced campaign planning?

[1:22:22] >> It it would have to inform advanced c

[1:22:24] campaign. Okay.

[1:22:25] >> I mean these advertisers buy them

[1:22:27] >> buy it based on exactly right what they

[1:22:30] know. And then um one other question

[1:22:31] just is the optimization and the third

[1:22:33] party data is it used on an individual

[1:22:35] level or a household level?

[1:22:38] I don't even know that I understand the

[1:22:40] difference between.

[1:22:41] >> So if my child is connected to my third

[1:22:44] party data as a household because of

[1:22:46] course the data provider knows that I

[1:22:48] have two kids and where we live. Will my

[1:22:51] son see ads? Will that is is that like

[1:22:54] is the data aggregated based on me?

[1:22:57] >> It it's anonymized. There is no

[1:22:59] individualization in the in the third

[1:23:01] party data.

[1:23:01] >> So it's to it's it's aggregated.

[1:23:03] >> Yes.

[1:23:04] >> Absolutely.

[1:23:04] >> Yeah. That was what that that was what I

[1:23:06] think we started with verbatim that it

[1:23:08] is an aggregated consent mobile location

[1:23:12] data. Got it.

[1:23:13] >> So an advertiser would know based on

[1:23:16] publicly available data like right

[1:23:19] there's this many children that live in

[1:23:21] Redbank. Therefore I might want to place

[1:23:23] an ad for my toy company on this

[1:23:26] billboard. That is something someone

[1:23:28] could do. Suppose

[1:23:30] if River Center is using it and the

[1:23:32] burrow is using it.

[1:23:35] I'm not sure what the distinction is

[1:23:37] here. It is being

[1:23:39] >> it is it is being used everywhere.

[1:23:42] Everything you do it's so again

[1:23:46] >> we are not collecting anything. It's

[1:23:48] anonymous. It's not individually

[1:23:50] targeted. That I can commit to.

[1:23:53] I think I can try to clarify that the at

[1:23:56] least I don't know about the other

[1:23:58] members of the board, but my concern is

[1:24:00] not that you're doing something unique

[1:24:02] or that you're collecting data or that

[1:24:04] you even have the names of people,

[1:24:06] right? I know I understand it's all

[1:24:07] anonymized and my concern is really that

[1:24:10] the experience of the targeted ad is

[1:24:13] public and on display and responsive to

[1:24:16] the audience and that audience can be

[1:24:17] small enough to raise a privacy concern.

[1:24:21] >> Okay. I I we can as as Kevin liked to

[1:24:23] say, we can agree to disagree. Um I

[1:24:26] understand your position, but it's no

[1:24:29] different than um if the burrow were to

[1:24:32] put up a little, you know, one of those

[1:24:34] little screens with the scrolling that

[1:24:36] goes through it or Count Bassy scrolling

[1:24:39] that goes through it. They also have

[1:24:41] availability to use this data. We know

[1:24:43] the bureau is already using it. Perhaps

[1:24:44] the bureau is sharing it with Count Basy

[1:24:46] and those scrolls that go through are I

[1:24:50] don't believe it's a privacy issue and I

[1:24:52] certainly don't think it's a privacy

[1:24:53] issue that would in any in any way

[1:24:55] violate any

[1:24:57] >> federal

[1:24:58] >> No, I don't think it's legal. So,

[1:25:00] >> so what we're what we're doing here is

[1:25:02] trying to determine what exactly is

[1:25:04] going to happen with the billboard and

[1:25:06] what it's going to be like because this

[1:25:08] is a town where people scrutinize

[1:25:11] everything that the government does and

[1:25:13] everything on every corner, every little

[1:25:15] hole in the wall, every little pothole,

[1:25:17] a light is left on. So, we need to

[1:25:20] understand and also flesh out in the

[1:25:21] hearing what actually is going to happen

[1:25:23] with that billboard and what it's really

[1:25:24] going to be doing that.

[1:25:26] >> But, no, but I'm not I'm not asking your

[1:25:28] question. I'm making a statement. So,

[1:25:29] I'm just saying that what we're trying

[1:25:30] to do is why we're asking all these

[1:25:33] questions because very informed people

[1:25:34] who understand these things. So, we want

[1:25:36] to understand exactly what we're getting

[1:25:38] and exactly what's going to happen. And

[1:25:39] it's a way of informing the public who

[1:25:41] may be watching this. There's reporters

[1:25:44] here so people understand what's coming

[1:25:46] and that we fleshed out what's coming to

[1:25:48] the town. That's what we're doing.

[1:25:49] >> And I appreciate that, Mr. Havens. I can

[1:25:51] tell you is my office is across the

[1:25:54] highway from a billboard that a digital

[1:25:56] billboard that I go by every single day.

[1:25:59] Not once, and it's an outfront

[1:26:01] billboard. Not once has there ever been

[1:26:04] an ad that flashed that was in any way

[1:26:08] related to any demographic data of mine.

[1:26:12] That I can tell you for sure. And I pass

[1:26:15] it every day, twice a day.

[1:26:18] >> Yeah. Yeah, I think if I could also

[1:26:19] clarify the the reason I'm asking these

[1:26:22] questions is because we have an

[1:26:24] ordinance that um pertains to billboards

[1:26:28] and signs and it's I'm going to read it

[1:26:30] just so it's clear. It it's actually the

[1:26:32] very first um section of our 490-104

[1:26:36] uh ordinance for signs and it says uh a

[1:26:40] sub or subsection a1 to protect the

[1:26:42] public health, safety and welfare by

[1:26:44] restricting signs which impair the

[1:26:45] public's ability to receive information

[1:26:47] violate privacy or which increase the

[1:26:49] probability of accidents by distracting

[1:26:51] attention or obstructing vision. And so

[1:26:53] I'm focusing on the violate privacy one

[1:26:54] because this is the ordinance that you

[1:26:57] are here asking for relief from.

[1:26:59] >> Correct. and and our position is is that

[1:27:01] the anonymity of it is in no way an

[1:27:04] invasion of privacy.

[1:27:09] » Okay.

[1:27:10] >> Is is there a time frame in advance that

[1:27:15] the messages the messages are pre

[1:27:17] pre-prepare?

[1:27:19] >> I think it is. Okay. Is that better?

[1:27:20] >> Yeah, you just got cop.

[1:27:21] >> Thank you. So is there if the messages

[1:27:25] are pre-prepared

[1:27:27] and pre-esigned is there a time frame in

[1:27:31] advance of their display that

[1:27:36] you know in other words like for example

[1:27:38] all ads to appear on the 15th of the

[1:27:40] month must be completed by the first of

[1:27:42] the month something like that so that we

[1:27:45] know that there's some sort of

[1:27:46] information with respect to how far in

[1:27:48] advance the schedule of ads of course

[1:27:51] minus miss any emergency situations but

[1:27:54] the schedule of advertising is prepared

[1:27:57] and

[1:27:59] finalized with an outfront.

[1:28:01] So my understanding is that the

[1:28:04] advertisers purchase there's a sales

[1:28:06] contract from what I understand. So they

[1:28:08] purchase let's say from January 1st to

[1:28:12] March 15th there. To your point it

[1:28:15] doesn't I don't know if it needs to be

[1:28:17] at a certain point like you need to get

[1:28:19] us the image prior to this date. Once

[1:28:22] they purchase their contract, they then

[1:28:24] provide, I believe, the sales and the

[1:28:25] creative team with their image, but it

[1:28:28] doesn't need to be provided by a certain

[1:28:30] date to run.

[1:28:31] >> We're not creating these images,

[1:28:32] correct?

[1:28:32] >> No, we're not. I mean, we have a

[1:28:34] creative department, but the advertiser

[1:28:35] who's buying the sales contract can

[1:28:37] either provide us with their image or

[1:28:40] pay us

[1:28:40] >> instruct us to what they would like to

[1:28:42] put up there. Correct.

[1:28:43] >> So, that's all done in advance. There

[1:28:45] must be some sort of schedule and

[1:28:46] deadlines, I'm assuming.

[1:28:48] >> I would have to assume so. So that's you

[1:28:50] know it's not as we're hearing these

[1:28:54] very legitimate concerns with respect to

[1:28:56] privacy and data collection. I mean

[1:28:58] there is I'm assuming I guess you're not

[1:29:00] able to provide the specifics some type

[1:29:02] of process and procedure

[1:29:05] at your company just like at every

[1:29:06] company we have you know deadlines for

[1:29:08] things to be submitted. For example our

[1:29:12] report for the Redbank zoning board has

[1:29:14] to be turned in. We can't just walk into

[1:29:15] the meeting with it. has to be turned in

[1:29:17] 48 hours in advance or something like

[1:29:19] that. It's all done in advance.

[1:29:20] >> Even in an emergency situation, you have

[1:29:23] to call. You have to say, "We need to

[1:29:25] run this, but it needs to stay. It need

[1:29:28] I'm either going to send it to you or

[1:29:30] you're going to create it for me. It's

[1:29:33] not instantaneous.

[1:29:36] >> The potential is there to be next day.

[1:29:39] You could certainly do that. If you have

[1:29:40] a contract for six months, you could

[1:29:42] feed in an image and change the image

[1:29:44] for Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday. You

[1:29:47] could do different images. Eventually,

[1:29:48] you'll be able to do that if you don't

[1:29:50] do it now where you could just change

[1:29:52] the images in 24 hours. I could have a

[1:29:54] new ad in 24. I'm not objecting to it.

[1:29:56] makes sense, but

[1:29:58] >> and I that is my understanding. I believe

[1:30:01] so. I'm not 100% sure, but that is my

[1:30:04] understanding. In

[1:30:04] >> the future, it could be done very

[1:30:05] quickly, but that's still it's just the

[1:30:07] way it is.

[1:30:11] Um I have a question. Uh the slightly

[1:30:13] unrelated but similar topic. Um the town

[1:30:18] the burough use time you mentioned there

[1:30:21] are certain guidelines around like must

[1:30:22] be politically neutral etc. Are there

[1:30:24] guidelines that dictate the other

[1:30:27] advertiser types of ads like protected

[1:30:31] categories unprotected cate like what governs other types of ads that

[1:30:35] might show up on this billboard?

[1:30:37] So the first amendment as well as we

[1:30:39] have our legal department reviewed.

[1:30:41] There's nothing that's going to be put

[1:30:43] out there that is illegal. Um there's no

[1:30:46] nude, you know, um images, lewd images,

[1:30:49] uh violence, you know, we're we're a

[1:30:52] publicly traded company. Um you know,

[1:30:55] >> for the you know, 80 87.5% of time

[1:30:58] political ads could be fair game if

[1:31:00] they're paid for by, you know, vest an

[1:31:03] interest, etc.

[1:31:04] >> Yes. My understanding is yes.

[1:31:06] >> And yeah. Okay. It it is across the

[1:31:08] street from a Planned Parenthood I would

[1:31:10] like to just note as well. So I don't

[1:31:11] know if we want to maybe be aware of

[1:31:14] that as as well.

[1:31:18] » Okay.

[1:31:19] >> Any other questions?

[1:31:21] >> Yeah. Um I wanted to revisit the

[1:31:23] protocol B a bit. That was the one where

[1:31:25] the burrow gets the 12.5%

[1:31:28] time as it's used. And so I'm trying to

[1:31:30] understand the um value of that benefit.

[1:31:33] And and one of the ways I could

[1:31:34] understand it is if um the bureau were

[1:31:37] already spending x amount of dollars on

[1:31:40] outfront ads, it could then use this

[1:31:43] time instead to save um some of its

[1:31:46] budget. And so are you aware is of what the bureau does spend on

[1:31:51] outfront ads today?

[1:31:52] >> I I'm not in sales. I can't answer that

[1:31:54] question. I'm sorry. But to your point,

[1:31:56] yes, you could absolutely if you are

[1:31:58] spending money now, you could

[1:32:00] potentially stop and use your dedicated

[1:32:02] time,

[1:32:03] >> right? I'm trying to quantify how much

[1:32:04] and and so I I don't recall seeing any

[1:32:06] burrow advertisements on on static

[1:32:08] billboards, so I'm just going to assume

[1:32:10] it's zero, but um if you would if you

[1:32:12] know otherwise, please let us know.

[1:32:14] >> Well, but but also, Mr. Goodday, we're

[1:32:15] not saying that it's necessarily a

[1:32:17] financial benefit to the

[1:32:19] >> No, but that's one way to understand it.

[1:32:21] it is, but we think that it is a

[1:32:23] public benefit to the burough residents

[1:32:26] that their municipality is able to

[1:32:28] communicate with them with important

[1:32:30] information in a medium that will be

[1:32:33] seen by a lot of people,

[1:32:34] >> which they can do today if they pay

[1:32:36] market rates for it.

[1:32:37] >> Well, they can't do it today on the same

[1:32:39] way because there is no digital

[1:32:40] billboard in Redbank and the billboards

[1:32:44] are changed once a month as it relates

[1:32:47] to um a static billboard. So, for

[1:32:51] example, if the senior center decided

[1:32:53] they were going to have a Valentine's

[1:32:55] Day party and they wanted everybody to

[1:32:57] know,

[1:32:59] the the bureau could call up and say,

[1:33:00] "Next week, please run this." You can't

[1:33:02] do that with a static billboard. So, the

[1:33:04] benefit of a digital billboard is that

[1:33:07] you have the ability to provide more

[1:33:10] timely burrow type announcements,

[1:33:12] whether emergency or non-emergency. It's

[1:33:15] not about a financial benefit as much as

[1:33:18] it is about a convenience benefit for

[1:33:20] the burrow to reach an audience on much

[1:33:22] more timely things than a static

[1:33:24] billboard would be able to.

[1:33:25] >> Okay. And if I were to ask a different

[1:33:28] way to try to understand objectively

[1:33:30] what the value of that is um the what

[1:33:34] would be the market rate for that 12.5%

[1:33:36] or for one of those 8-second slots?

[1:33:39] >> I'm not aware.

[1:33:40] >> Okay.

[1:33:42] It seems to me it's a that the u the 12

[1:33:46] and a half% is is going to be of

[1:33:49] tremendous value to the bureau and for

[1:33:51] advertising events especially and for

[1:33:53] reaching people which is very difficult

[1:33:55] today in this enormously uh environment

[1:34:00] and we needed to be doing stuff in

[1:34:01] Spanish to reach people here. Um, and I

[1:34:05] think it's of tremendous value to the

[1:34:07] town to have something like this to do

[1:34:09] like I saw the Dville ads and what

[1:34:11] they're trying to do and trying to get

[1:34:13] people to shop Red Bank and spend in Red

[1:34:15] Bank.

[1:34:16] >> And just to echo that, Mr. Havens, on on

[1:34:18] the former site at 187, the burrow

[1:34:22] actually set up a giant display. I I

[1:34:26] don't know that it was um digital but it

[1:34:29] was a lighted display to give messages

[1:34:32] to people at that location. So there is

[1:34:35] a need to disseminate this information.

[1:34:37] A lot of municipalities have their own

[1:34:39] digital signs with which they do this.

[1:34:41] You drive into Belmar, you have welcome

[1:34:42] to Belmar and all the announcements are

[1:34:44] there. So there is definitely a need in

[1:34:47] addition to the internet obviously uh to

[1:34:50] do this. So again this is a public

[1:34:52] benefit not a financial benefit

[1:34:54] necessarily.

[1:34:58] Okay,

[1:34:59] everybody's okay. We'll kind of move on.

[1:35:04] >> I did have another question actually on

[1:35:05] the um is this would be the right time

[1:35:07] to talk about the removals in the

[1:35:09] settlement. Yeah.

[1:35:10] >> Yes.

[1:35:10] >> Okay. And so we had asked before about

[1:35:12] which one of those uh had is I'm sorry I

[1:35:16] had asked a question before about which

[1:35:18] of those faces already has a permit to

[1:35:21] be removed. Right. And

[1:35:22] >> no no that wasn't the question. I'm

[1:35:23] sorry. Not to be. Yes. It was a you

[1:35:25] asked to be turned to digital and the

[1:35:27] answer was two and I I want to go you

[1:35:29] rais a a good point for a discussion

[1:35:31] that I had had with Kevin so thank you

[1:35:33] for raising that

[1:35:34] >> so just so the I I promised I would talk

[1:35:36] about this so I'm going to do it now um

[1:35:38] the way that the settlement agreement is

[1:35:41] written there is a trigger date which is

[1:35:43] what um governs all of the various

[1:35:47] actions that are required

[1:35:50] and I want to read it exactly because I

[1:35:55] Don't want to misstate anything. So the

[1:35:59] trigger date for which all action is

[1:36:01] required is a multitude of different

[1:36:04] things. One, it would be an approval by

[1:36:08] this board, a memorialization and any

[1:36:10] appeal period. Two, confirmation that

[1:36:14] the uh litigation

[1:36:17] was that any any appeal or litigation is

[1:36:20] fully concluded and it's gone. And then

[1:36:22] three, most importantly, the issuance of

[1:36:25] construction permits for the billboard.

[1:36:28] And one of the questions Kevin astutely

[1:36:31] asked me was, well, if you have 90 days

[1:36:34] from then to remove all of the

[1:36:36] billboards, how do we know that you're

[1:36:38] going to actually remove them if you

[1:36:41] have the opportunity to put your digital

[1:36:43] billboard up digital billboard up first?

[1:36:46] And that's when Kevin and I discussed

[1:36:48] that the board is able to impose

[1:36:50] conditions. and I want to just explain

[1:36:51] the process with the board and then I'll

[1:36:53] share what condition we'd be willing to

[1:36:55] agree to. So, as I understand it,

[1:36:59] outfront doesn't order the materials

[1:37:02] for any billboard that they're

[1:37:03] constructing until the construction

[1:37:05] permits have been issued.

[1:37:07] >> Correct. That is correct.

[1:37:08] >> And the types of materials for a

[1:37:10] billboard like this would typically take

[1:37:12] how long to get there? anywhere from 8

[1:37:15] to 12 weeks, sometimes a little longer

[1:37:17] depending on if it's a unique size or

[1:37:19] configuration, but typically two to

[1:37:21] three months.

[1:37:22] >> So, if outfront were willing to agree

[1:37:24] that they would not be permitted to

[1:37:26] commence construction on the billboard

[1:37:28] structure until it was confirmed that

[1:37:31] all nine faces have been removed as

[1:37:34] required by the um settlement, that

[1:37:37] would be a condition we would accept.

[1:37:39] >> Yes, 100%. So that isn't something that

[1:37:42] was negotiated as part of the

[1:37:43] settlement, but in an effort to assure

[1:37:46] the board that we can't put up our new

[1:37:48] billboard should you vote in favor until

[1:37:52] all those nine faces are gone, we're

[1:37:55] willing to accept that as a condition.

[1:37:56] And I think that gives the board a level

[1:37:59] the municipality a level of security

[1:38:01] that would be a lot more than posting of

[1:38:04] bonds or the ability to go to court to

[1:38:05] enforce a settlement agreement.

[1:38:06] >> Is it just the faces or the faces and

[1:38:08] the structure?

[1:38:09] >> Faces and the structure.

[1:38:10] I'm I'm calling it eight faces because

[1:38:11] there are not eight structures,

[1:38:13] >> right? Eight faces, four structures.

[1:38:15] >> Eight faces and however many structures

[1:38:17] they sit on. And then it's nine when you

[1:38:20] include 187.

[1:38:21] >> And just for the record, we um said

[1:38:24] permanent 100% removal and abandonment

[1:38:27] of the structures, the the framework, I

[1:38:29] mean everything, the kitten

[1:38:31] >> and JD dot permit as well.

[1:38:32] >> Yes.

[1:38:33] >> Right. So So again, that's something

[1:38:34] that could be inspected by No, sorry,

[1:38:36] Jackie. That's something that can be

[1:38:38] inspected by your burough engineer and

[1:38:40] then that could be the trigger for the

[1:38:42] construction department allowing us to

[1:38:44] commence construction.

[1:38:45] >> So essentially what you're going to do

[1:38:46] is just get started on all the work that

[1:38:48] you have to do.

[1:38:49] >> Correct.

[1:38:49] >> Just get going on all

[1:38:51] >> the moment we get the sooner the better.

[1:38:54] >> Should we get there? The moment we get

[1:38:55] the construction permit for the new

[1:38:57] billboard is when we start dismantling

[1:39:00] all of the other ones and hopefully

[1:39:02] we're done by the time we get the

[1:39:04] materials for the new one. One thing

[1:39:06] though, a caveat that I had uh talked to

[1:39:08] Kevin about, as you know, there are

[1:39:10] other things related to this as you're

[1:39:12] going to hear when when Dan gets up

[1:39:14] here, is we're reconstructing the

[1:39:17] island. We're moving the sign that's

[1:39:19] existing there today back from the right

[1:39:21] ofway. Uh so what we'd like to do is not

[1:39:25] have it tied to the site work related to

[1:39:27] the relocation of the other sign and

[1:39:29] prep. It's just the actual billboard

[1:39:31] construction cannot commence. So, that

[1:39:33] was what we were offering. And I think

[1:39:35] that gives us the opportunity that once

[1:39:37] the materials come in and once uh

[1:39:40] Jackie's confirmed that all the nine

[1:39:41] other billboards have been uh adequately

[1:39:44] removed and abandoned, that would give

[1:39:46] us the opportunity to have the site

[1:39:47] ready to get moving.

[1:39:49] >> So, essentially, it won't be lit up

[1:39:51] until the other ones are gone.

[1:39:53] >> Won't even be lit up until the other

[1:39:55] ones are gone because we still have to

[1:39:57] build it.

[1:39:58] >> But you got to build it. And I was

[1:40:00] curious about that. You set back further

[1:40:01] than I expected to be. I thought it'd be

[1:40:03] closer to Newman. Um

[1:40:05] >> no. So it it can I

[1:40:07] >> Dan testified if you don't mind?

[1:40:11] >> So um the the nine faces and so the ones

[1:40:15] at Oakland that was the other one

[1:40:18] besides Riverside that is eligible for

[1:40:20] conversion. I I also understand that one is in the train station

[1:40:24] redevelopment area. And so regardless of

[1:40:27] the settlement, it's my understanding

[1:40:28] that one is compelled to be removed. Is

[1:40:30] that right?

[1:40:31] >> It I don't I don't have the answer to

[1:40:33] that, but I know that that was a

[1:40:35] discussion, which is why we added an

[1:40:36] additional one.

[1:40:37] >> Correct. So I if you if I could jump in

[1:40:39] here. So yes, uh to your point, it is uh

[1:40:42] being developed and those will have to

[1:40:43] come down. So the original hearing, I

[1:40:45] believe there were six billboards

[1:40:47] offered up for removal. Uh because of

[1:40:49] what you just mentioned, those are

[1:40:51] coming down regardless of what happens

[1:40:53] here tonight.

[1:40:53] >> Those two.

[1:40:54] He added another two bringing

[1:40:56] it from six to eight as well as

[1:40:58] Riverside which makes it nine total.

[1:41:01] >> Okay. And could you tell us about the

[1:41:04] you told us the lease terms of the

[1:41:05] proposed billboard is 15 years with five

[1:41:08] years. What was the

[1:41:09] >> Yeah, a five-year out outfront option.

[1:41:11] >> Outfront option. Okay. And of for the

[1:41:14] phases that would be coming down, I'm

[1:41:16] most interested in I guess 187

[1:41:18] Riverside, 31 Shrewsbury app, and 300

[1:41:20] Maple. what is the remaining lease terms

[1:41:23] on those so that I can compare you know

[1:41:25] there's 15 uh years of billboard faces

[1:41:29] coming up as part of this proposal how

[1:41:31] many years of billboard is coming down

[1:41:33] >> I I don't have that um

[1:41:36] >> but but again just because the lease

[1:41:38] expires doesn't mean that the landlord

[1:41:40] wouldn't renew it

[1:41:42] >> because it's lucrative so I don't think

[1:41:44] that even if we had that information I

[1:41:46] don't know that that's a fair metric

[1:41:47] because again they could be renewed

[1:41:50] which they have been. The billboard at

[1:41:52] 187 has been continuously renewed

[1:41:56] for

[1:41:56] >> 50s or 60s and each lease term is not

[1:41:59] that long. But regardless,

[1:42:02] we were asked in the settlement to

[1:42:04] provide some very specific information

[1:42:06] which I believe that we did and we'll

[1:42:07] get through all of it. But the lease

[1:42:09] terms of the various billboards that

[1:42:11] we're removing is not information that

[1:42:12] we have available nor that we can

[1:42:14] present.

[1:42:15] >> But but you do know you're you're

[1:42:17] managing 3,500 billboards in the state

[1:42:19] of New Jersey. No. in the country. No.

[1:42:21] State of New Jersey.

[1:42:22] >> State of New Jersey. My

[1:42:23] >> How many How often are those

[1:42:25] discontinued?

[1:42:28] >> Not that often.

[1:42:29] >> That's what I thought.

[1:42:31] >> No, but I mean it's pretty well

[1:42:32] documented that at least the current

[1:42:33] property owner of 187 Riverside is

[1:42:35] motivated to not have a billboard there.

[1:42:37] So, we know in some cases

[1:42:39] >> the current owner that purchased it

[1:42:41] after our denial had that feeling

[1:42:44] because

[1:42:45] >> that was part of the objection. So

[1:42:46] again, how one property owner

[1:42:50] did it, again, the testimony is is that

[1:42:53] typically it's lucrative for the land

[1:42:55] owners. It's a passive use that uh they

[1:42:59] derive income from. There'd be no reason

[1:43:00] why they wouldn't allow it to continue,

[1:43:03] >> but they might. And and there's some

[1:43:06] information asymmetry here because, you

[1:43:07] know, these lease terms, but but we

[1:43:09] don't. And so I'm kind of at a

[1:43:10] disadvantage when weighing 15 new years

[1:43:13] of billboard faces versus these other

[1:43:15] ones that could come down in a year. And

[1:43:19] I

[1:43:19] >> we don't anticipate that any of those

[1:43:21] billboards would be coming down in a

[1:43:23] year except for perhaps the one on the

[1:43:25] transit

[1:43:26] >> 187. Um the lease uh

[1:43:31] >> we had an additional two or three years

[1:43:33] left on that lease. So that lease could

[1:43:36] continue past the wish that that could

[1:43:39] continue even though the properties

[1:43:40] changed hands. Yeah. Thank you.

[1:43:46] » Are any of the um did did you apply for

[1:43:49] a permit to upgrade with like um to an

[1:43:52] electronic billboard? Uh how many out of

[1:43:55] the eight that you're taking down did

[1:43:56] you apply for a permit to upgrade those?

[1:44:00] >> Me personally, none of those. Um I but

[1:44:02] they it looks like it says that they are

[1:44:04] eligible for an upgrade for those two

[1:44:06] based on the exhibit.

[1:44:07] >> So two out of the eight.

[1:44:08] >> Correct. Two faces out of the two

[1:44:10] locations out of the four which is a two

[1:44:13] of

[1:44:14] >> three faces.

[1:44:15] >> So those you got the permits to to

[1:44:18] upgrade those and then you would have

[1:44:19] had to come before the zoning board.

[1:44:21] >> Yes, 100%. And some of those permits

[1:44:23] could have been approve uh applied for

[1:44:25] to potentially block out other

[1:44:26] competitors from putting up a digital.

[1:44:29] Just because Outfront applies for a

[1:44:31] digital permit doesn't necessarily mean

[1:44:33] that we're looking to convert it because

[1:44:36] of the zoning laws from the DOT and the

[1:44:40] spacing there. It's a competitive way to

[1:44:42] stop other digital billboards from being

[1:44:44] built.

[1:44:44] >> And you apply for that though with the

[1:44:47] um through the DOT.

[1:44:48] >> Yes, correct. All

[1:44:49] >> did you apply for permits for all for

[1:44:52] all four structures that you're giving

[1:44:54] up here or just two of the four? Uh, I

[1:44:56] believe just two of the four.

[1:44:58] >> Were any of the um any applications that

[1:45:01] you put in for a permit denied in

[1:45:03] Redbank to upgrade by the DOT?

[1:45:06] >> No,

[1:45:07] not to my knowledge.

[1:45:08] >> And with what frequency it does the DOT

[1:45:11] deny applications to upgrade billboards

[1:45:14] throughout the state?

[1:45:15] >> The only reason for denial would be that

[1:45:18] it doesn't fit their requirements for

[1:45:19] zoning, spacing, and ramp spacing. uh

[1:45:24] they're very black and white with what

[1:45:26] they're looking for. There's no

[1:45:28] inbetweens. It's either you fit their

[1:45:30] requirements or you don't. And that's

[1:45:31] the only reason you would get a denial.

[1:45:33] >> So, is it 90% approval rate by the

[1:45:35] state?

[1:45:37] >> I I I don't have that answer for you,

[1:45:39] but it's

[1:45:41] >> Well, they routinely approve it as long

[1:45:43] as it meets the terms of the law.

[1:45:45] >> Exactly. That is correct.

[1:45:50] You know, for me it and I guess you have

[1:45:53] some more testimony coming forward, but

[1:45:55] >> we do have quite a few more witnesses

[1:45:56] coming

[1:45:57] >> that I I won't give a little narrative.

[1:45:58] I'll let

[1:46:01] >> Right. I I I certainly want wouldn't

[1:46:02] want it to appear that you prejudged it.

[1:46:04] So, I would ask you to wait until we

[1:46:05] finish with all of our witnesses where

[1:46:08] you offer us your opinion.

[1:46:10] >> Okay. Any more questions for this

[1:46:12] witness from the board?

[1:46:16] Any questions from the public for this

[1:46:19] witness?

[1:46:22] Come on up.

[1:46:25] >> Hello. Good evening. If you could just

[1:46:26] state your name and address. Need to get

[1:46:28] a micro. Grab that mic out of it. There

[1:46:31] you go.

[1:46:39] Name and address.

[1:46:40] >> Suzani 25 C Street. Do you swear that

[1:46:42] the information and testimony you're

[1:46:44] about to provide to the extent you

[1:46:45] provide any will be the truth to best

[1:46:46] your knowledge to help you God?

[1:46:48] >> Yes.

[1:46:48] >> Thank you.

[1:46:48] >> Could I just get the spelling of your

[1:46:50] last name?

[1:46:50] >> Vistor. I S C O M I.

[1:46:54] >> And your address again?

[1:46:56] >> 25 Cedar. CE D A R Street.

[1:47:02] I am not speaking on behalf of the

[1:47:04] school board or anything. I'm speaking

[1:47:06] for myself. Um I have a question. You

[1:47:08] mentioned that the town can use this

[1:47:10] forformational purposes. Uh would that

[1:47:12] include or would there be a separate ask

[1:47:15] for like the library and the schools to

[1:47:17] have uh small access forformational

[1:47:24] » certainly the town could give some of

[1:47:26] their time. So

[1:47:27] >> correct I mean if it's part of red bank

[1:47:29] >> the library or the board of ed.

[1:47:32] >> So not exclusively to just the town's

[1:47:34] activity. It could be if the board of ed

[1:47:36] acts for time or

[1:47:37] >> well they wouldn't the board of ed

[1:47:38] wouldn't ask us for the time they would

[1:47:40] go to the bureau gets 12 and a half% how

[1:47:42] the burrow wants to use that 12 and a

[1:47:44] half% is going to be up to the burrow

[1:47:46] >> and we kind of do that now because the middle school has a nice digital

[1:47:51] board and the library does too. So thank

[1:47:53] you.

[1:47:54] >> Thank you. Thank you. Anybody else from

[1:47:57] the public?

[1:47:59] Come on up.

[1:48:02] Name and address question.

[1:48:08] » Uh, Victor Roller, 187 Riverside Avenue,

[1:48:10] Red Bank, New Jersey.

[1:48:11] >> Good evening and welcome. Do you swear

[1:48:13] that the information and testimony

[1:48:14] you're about to provide to the extent

[1:48:15] you provide any will be the truth to the

[1:48:17] best of your knowledge to help you God?

[1:48:19] >> Yes.

[1:48:20] >> Thank you.

[1:48:20] >> Uh, question. You talked about the

[1:48:23] public and financial benefit of giving

[1:48:26] the time to Red Bank. Um, I know what

[1:48:30] the billboard company pays us uh monthly

[1:48:35] and they pay us a lot of money. I think

[1:48:37] it's a tremendous benefit to the town of

[1:48:41] Redbank financially and publicly. It

[1:48:44] would be so expensive for the town to

[1:48:46] advertise and to have 12 and a half% of

[1:48:49] a billboard with advertising for the

[1:48:52] town I think is a is a unbelievable

[1:48:54] benefit financially and public benefit.

[1:48:57] So

[1:48:59] just from my knowledge of what we make

[1:49:01] and how much it would cost the town.

[1:49:03] >> Great. Thank you.

[1:49:07] Anyone else from the public?

[1:49:10] Come on up.

[1:49:15] name and address.

[1:49:16] >> Esther Nelson, uh, 39 Parkway Place,

[1:49:19] Redbank, New Jersey.

[1:49:20] >> All right. And just speak loudly into

[1:49:22] that mic.

[1:49:22] >> Right into that.

[1:49:23] >> Do you swear that the information and

[1:49:24] testimony you're about to provide to the

[1:49:26] extent you providing will be the truth?

[1:49:27] To best your knowledge to help you God.

[1:49:29] >> Yes.

[1:49:29] >> Thank you.

[1:49:30] Um, I was just curious if

[1:49:32] Outfront Media has subsidiaries that

[1:49:35] also put up billboards so that like

[1:49:38] there's another one proposed on Newman

[1:49:39] Springs Road at the Extend State America

[1:49:41] right now that's going through process.

[1:49:44] Um, and if there's relationship with

[1:49:46] Outfront Media with other companies that

[1:49:49] are applying, so not under the name

[1:49:50] Outfront Media. So if so, just so I

[1:49:53] understand the question, you want to

[1:49:54] make sure that outfront isn't going to

[1:49:55] use some shell company to put up

[1:49:58] billboards because we're promising that

[1:50:00] we won't.

[1:50:02] >> Uh um I'm asking not not specific just

[1:50:05] are there other companies under under

[1:50:08] outfront that

[1:50:09] >> operate under any other entities?

[1:50:12] >> No, we do not.

[1:50:14] >> I'm sorry. Can I can I just say one

[1:50:15] thing because that's an excellent

[1:50:16] question and in the settlement agreement

[1:50:19] it specifically references outfront

[1:50:21] media and its agents representatives

[1:50:23] affiliated and related entities. So

[1:50:25] everything that they're committing to

[1:50:27] it's going to be to their affiliates as

[1:50:29] well.

[1:50:30] >> Okay. Thank you. And and this is not at

[1:50:32] all connected to the one that's about a

[1:50:33] mile down the road proposed?

[1:50:35] >> Not to my knowledge. No.

[1:50:37] >> And and I'm just curious it's dual

[1:50:39] spacing.

[1:50:40] >> Yes. Two faces back to back.

[1:50:42] >> We didn't get we didn't even get there

[1:50:43] yet.

[1:50:43] >> Oh okay. We we have pictures and

[1:50:45] everything of it. We just don't have not

[1:50:47] yet.

[1:50:47] >> All right. Thank you.

[1:50:48] >> Okay. Thank you.

[1:50:51] >> Okay. Last call for public. Come on up.

[1:50:59] Name and address.

[1:51:01] >> Brian Ramirez. Don't place right there.

[1:51:04] >> And Ramirez is R A M

[1:51:07] >> I R E Z.

[1:51:09] >> Okay. And do you swear that the

[1:51:10] information and testimony you're about

[1:51:12] to provide to the extent you provide any

[1:51:13] will be the truth to best your knowledge

[1:51:15] to help you guide?

[1:51:16] >> Yep. Thank you.

[1:51:19] >> Yeah. Yeah. Just what street I just

[1:51:21] >> by please

[1:51:24] >> I'm sorry. Okay. When he turns to talk

[1:51:26] into the mic, he turns away from me so I

[1:51:28] can't see him.

[1:51:29] >> Take the mic out of I don't do that

[1:51:30] often.

[1:51:31] >> I got it. Thank you.

[1:51:32] >> Um just want to say two things. So uh

[1:51:34] one I've been in digital marketing for

[1:51:37] about I guess 20 years now. uh to date

[1:51:39] myself. Um so I've seen it change for a

[1:51:42] while. Um and everything you guys are

[1:51:44] saying is like I best my knowledge is

[1:51:46] true. Like the tracking is pretty

[1:51:48] elementary compared to what what else is

[1:51:50] out there right now. My concern is just

[1:51:53] having seen it change over 20 years, 15

[1:51:55] years is a very long time. And so as you

[1:51:57] guys kind of think about what the New

[1:52:00] Jersey standards are right now, the

[1:52:01] stuff they're going to abide by as a

[1:52:04] resident with young kids, all that sort

[1:52:05] of stuff, just knowing how it changes,

[1:52:07] if you can think about head about, you

[1:52:10] know, what the standards are right now

[1:52:12] and should be and how that, you know,

[1:52:14] aligning it with how New Jersey changes

[1:52:16] or whatever else,

[1:52:19] you you don't you don't uh you don't

[1:52:21] control that trajectory necessarily,

[1:52:23] right? But if you think about what's

[1:52:24] best for the town right now and what you

[1:52:25] want to be in 15 years, that's how I'd

[1:52:27] encourage you to kind of think about

[1:52:29] putting those parameters in place if

[1:52:30] that's how how it works. Um because and

[1:52:34] because the other thing that also uh one

[1:52:35] other thing that wasn't brought up, we

[1:52:36] talked a lot about the out of home

[1:52:39] tracking and everything. Uh but the mo

[1:52:42] the mobile buys you guys actually do not

[1:52:44] talk about as well like you know by

[1:52:46] looking at the pitch deck. I was looking

[1:52:47] at my phone most of this time, right?

[1:52:49] your your sales agents are selling not

[1:52:52] just the the the billboard buys but also

[1:52:54] the mobile personalization that comes

[1:52:56] when you pass it, right? Like trying to

[1:52:58] make sure that if I drive by it that

[1:53:00] then later on I get out of my phone as

[1:53:03] well. And so I'm not sure why that was

[1:53:05] necessarily brought up because I think

[1:53:06] it probably addresses a lot of the

[1:53:07] concerns you guys are bringing up about

[1:53:08] the personalization and the tracking,

[1:53:10] but best my understanding again based on

[1:53:12] the sale the the public pitch decks that

[1:53:15] the sales teams used to pitch people

[1:53:17] like myself. I'm just wondering why that

[1:53:19] wasn't necessary part of the

[1:53:20] conversation so far.

[1:53:21] >> First of all, the conversation was in

[1:53:23] direct result of questions from the

[1:53:24] board. So, we were answering them.

[1:53:26] Second,

[1:53:27] >> we're not familiar with how that works

[1:53:30] any different than any other company and

[1:53:31] whether or not that even occurs today

[1:53:33] with static billboards.

[1:53:34] >> Y

[1:53:35] >> So, again, it it's nothing to do with

[1:53:37] our proposed billboards. So if outfront

[1:53:40] or any other company

[1:53:43] >> uses what you called cell phone buys and sends them that has nothing to do

[1:53:48] with what we're proposing by way of the

[1:53:51] uh use variance for the digital

[1:53:52] billboard. We were asked whether or not

[1:53:54] we were doing any tracking.

[1:53:57] >> Right. I mean, I could just just mean

[1:54:00] >> Well, I'm a little bit uncomfortable

[1:54:02] from just a legal perspective to have

[1:54:04] you read from a website without me

[1:54:06] having confirming where it's from, what

[1:54:07] it is.

[1:54:08] >> Uh, we your objections don't for the

[1:54:10] record, but we'll let you read and then

[1:54:11] we'll we'll come back to that.

[1:54:13] >> Uh, out from media media kit. Uh,

[1:54:16] >> what website is that on, Mr. Ramirez?

[1:54:18] >> This is on slideshare.net. So, maybe

[1:54:21] it's a little outdated.

[1:54:22] >> Yeah. I'd prefer if you're going to

[1:54:23] reference anything from outront it be on

[1:54:25] the outfront website.

[1:54:26] >> Yeah. Okay. That's fair. Um,

[1:54:30] yeah, it was a few years dated, but I

[1:54:31] guess this the last point I'm going to

[1:54:33] say is that this this pitch deck that I

[1:54:35] saw was I think 20 like the the early

[1:54:37] 2020s. Um, and without a home, you know,

[1:54:43] uh, I never actually bought it because

[1:54:44] it was never that they actually never

[1:54:46] had the data that I wanted as a as a

[1:54:48] digital marketer, right? But they are

[1:54:50] competing with the metas and all these

[1:54:52] much more sophisticated platforms out

[1:54:54] there. And so as a public company, you

[1:54:58] guys should be trying to get more and

[1:54:59] more sophisticated to get better and

[1:55:00] better tracking for your advertisers,

[1:55:02] right? Like I don't know why you

[1:55:03] wouldn't be I know you guys aren't doing

[1:55:05] that. Right. Right.

[1:55:05] >> And so that's what I'm more concerned

[1:55:06] about as a resident here is just how

[1:55:08] does this evolve? Where does it go from

[1:55:10] there?

[1:55:10] >> Can I just ask Mr. Mir a couple

[1:55:12] questions about what what you had said?

[1:55:13] So when you say for digital marketing,

[1:55:16] so essentially you do targeted marketing

[1:55:18] and

[1:55:20] you you utilize these services to target

[1:55:23] ads

[1:55:24] >> for my uh for my employers. Yes.

[1:55:27] >> Okay. And what kind of business is that?

[1:55:29] >> Uh I'm currently the head of marketing

[1:55:30] for like a health tech company.

[1:55:33] >> Okay. So the health tech company. So

[1:55:35] that was one example that I didn't use,

[1:55:36] but you use the exactly the type of um

[1:55:39] the type of information that we were

[1:55:41] talking about.

[1:55:42] >> Yes. But so that's that's to serve to

[1:55:44] serve the business interest of the

[1:55:45] company I work for.

[1:55:46] >> Yeah.

[1:55:47] >> No, no, no. Understood. Not personally.

[1:55:48] Of course not. So I I guess my question

[1:55:50] is

[1:55:51] >> just like you would be as the technology

[1:55:53] advances 5 years from now, 10 years from

[1:55:55] now, the laws would grow with that as it

[1:55:59] typically does, as the um technology

[1:56:02] gets better, the laws trying to regulate

[1:56:04] it attempt to get even stronger. So the

[1:56:07] same way that your company would be

[1:56:09] bound by whatever the privacy laws are

[1:56:11] for purposes of your business outfront

[1:56:14] would be bound by the very same laws

[1:56:17] on behalf of their advertisers.

[1:56:19] >> I guess from my perspective uh it seems

[1:56:22] like the laws are getting less in the

[1:56:24] favor of the consumer the past couple

[1:56:25] years. And so that doesn't seem like a

[1:56:27] train you want to be on right now. I

[1:56:29] understand, but I just I want to point

[1:56:31] out that you're objecting to one

[1:56:34] business using the same exact type of

[1:56:38] information and data

[1:56:40] >> that you're currently using on behalf of

[1:56:41] your employer and you're recognizing is

[1:56:43] used worldwide.

[1:56:45] >> I I also use AI for my for my work. I

[1:56:47] don't personally give it access to my

[1:56:49] calendar, any of my personal stuff. I

[1:56:50] don't trust it.

[1:56:51] >> Correct. Which is why we're not asking

[1:56:53] for any personal information. It's all

[1:56:54] going to be anonymous. Uh, well, I'm

[1:56:56] responding to your point about like me

[1:56:58] using it for my work and you guys trying

[1:56:59] to do the same thing. And all I'm trying

[1:57:01] to point out is the difference between a

[1:57:03] publicly traded company that needs to

[1:57:04] make more money as your, you know, uh,

[1:57:08] responsibility versus what the residents

[1:57:10] actually want and care about.

[1:57:12] >> I would like to say though that

[1:57:15] you asked you you said it wasn't brought

[1:57:18] up that we were concerned about

[1:57:20] individual ad targeting to mobile

[1:57:22] phones. And I thought we spent about a

[1:57:24] half an hour on that issue.

[1:57:25] >> Oh, sorry. Then I misspoke. I was saying

[1:57:27] the the the conversation from my

[1:57:29] perspective was more about like the out

[1:57:31] the the out of home billboards, right?

[1:57:32] The the messages changing on the

[1:57:34] billboard every 8 seconds, etc. I'm

[1:57:36] talking about the fact that they part of

[1:57:38] the media buys are also selling

[1:57:40] impressions that occur on your personal

[1:57:42] phone when people go by. They

[1:57:46] >> again my understanding is this billboard

[1:57:48] won't have that capacity and they're

[1:57:49] saying it never will.

[1:57:52] Oh, that so uh the the sales team will

[1:57:55] not sell media buys that will be able to

[1:57:57] set.

[1:57:57] >> So again, what we tested to is that our

[1:58:00] billboard will not have the ability to

[1:58:03] track anybody or anything

[1:58:05] >> or collect it.

[1:58:07] >> That is so that's different though

[1:58:08] because you guys then you guys buy the

[1:58:10] data from the third parties that can

[1:58:12] then send the information to the mobile

[1:58:13] phone.

[1:58:14] >> Again,

[1:58:15] no different.

[1:58:17] >> Yes. as it as it relates to any

[1:58:19] advertiser, it it's no different than

[1:58:23] the

[1:58:24] whether we have a billboard or not, we

[1:58:26] could still any company could use that

[1:58:29] technology. That has nothing to do with

[1:58:31] the billboard.

[1:58:32] >> Yeah, I think I just want to clarify the

[1:58:34] >> technology you're talking about is

[1:58:35] sending ads based on someone being in a

[1:58:37] certain area in town.

[1:58:39] >> And again, that's something you use for

[1:58:41] your healthcare. That's something

[1:58:43] anybody could use. Just be clear. I

[1:58:45] don't actually use it for unrelated.

[1:58:47] >> Could if I wanted to. Yes.

[1:58:48] >> Right. Unrelated.

[1:58:49] >> I just want to go back to something

[1:58:50] regarding the board of zoning board of

[1:58:52] adjustment is I think we did spend quite

[1:58:54] a bit of time trying to determine that

[1:58:56] this billboard will not be able to

[1:58:58] target individuals

[1:59:00] and and if they're selling targeting to

[1:59:03] phones, it has nothing to do with the

[1:59:05] billboard. I think

[1:59:07] >> that's not what I'm seeing. On outfront

[1:59:09] mobile seems to be the product. And

[1:59:11] >> that's what I was trying to bring up.

[1:59:12] Yes.

[1:59:13] But what does the billboard have to do

[1:59:14] with front

[1:59:14] >> to do with the digital billboard itself?

[1:59:17] It can be so again

[1:59:19] >> they they don't work together.

[1:59:21] >> It it says they do. It says if you get

[1:59:23] an impression on the digital billboard

[1:59:25] out front will help you give the same

[1:59:27] impression on the mobile device later.

[1:59:29] And that's what referred to as mobile.

[1:59:31] >> It's unrelated to the ad that's on the

[1:59:34] billboard.

[1:59:37] >> That's not what I'm reading on

[1:59:38] outfront.com.

[1:59:40] I don't think that technology is powered

[1:59:42] by something inherent in the billboard.

[1:59:43] I think it's like, hey, I could sell you

[1:59:45] the Red Bank special. It's an ad on a

[1:59:47] billboard and I target everyone in

[1:59:48] 07701.

[1:59:50] That's your Redbank advertising package.

[1:59:52] >> No, it says it's based on impressions on

[1:59:54] the billboard,

[1:59:55] >> right? So, if someone who lives at 07701

[1:59:58] is in that area, no different than if it

[2:00:01] was a school. If the school, anytime you

[2:00:04] come near the school, they could buy

[2:00:07] these ads and have something sent to the

[2:00:09] phone about we're closing early, come

[2:00:12] pick up your kids early. It

[2:00:14] >> it shows on this site, the front site,

[2:00:17] it shows the view cone from the

[2:00:19] billboard targeting a car passing by and

[2:00:22] then that individual's phone later

[2:00:24] getting the same impression. How is that

[2:00:26] not tracking that car?

[2:00:28] >> There's nothing on the actual structure.

[2:00:31] There's no device or hardware on the

[2:00:33] billboard.

[2:00:34] >> I understand it's it's in it's in the

[2:00:35] phone. I The phone is tracking the

[2:00:37] device. It's selling it to a data

[2:00:38] broker. You're buying it from the data

[2:00:40] broker. So, there's a bit of changing

[2:00:41] hands, but ultimately

[2:00:44] I mean, ultimately, it's it's just the

[2:00:46] structure. There's nothing correlating

[2:00:49] the billboard to the phone in data

[2:00:51] collection. If anything, it's the third

[2:00:53] party from my understanding. I I'm not

[2:00:55] involved in the sales or the analytics

[2:00:57] or the advertising. I I'm in the real

[2:00:59] estate department for outfront. Let let

[2:01:01] me let me give you an example.

[2:01:04] >> Vic, may I use you as an example?

[2:01:05] >> Sure.

[2:01:05] >> Thank you.

[2:01:07] If Vic wants to send targeted ads to

[2:01:10] Redbank residents,

[2:01:13] he can do an ad by like what we're

[2:01:16] talking about and it could be anytime

[2:01:19] there's a hit that someone who has a zip

[2:01:21] code of 07701 drives by Beravino,

[2:01:25] they get an ad to their phone about an

[2:01:28] about a pasta sale.

[2:01:31] That's the equivalent of what I believe

[2:01:33] Mr. Ramirez is talking about. It's not

[2:01:35] related to the billboard use. It is a

[2:01:38] technological service that is offered to

[2:01:41] anyone irrespective of it. It just so

[2:01:44] happens that the billboard use is the

[2:01:47] primary use. No different than a

[2:01:49] restaurant or a library or a bakery. So

[2:01:52] again, it's no different than any other

[2:01:54] technology any other business in town is

[2:01:57] utilizing today. So, the only reason I

[2:01:59] brought that up was because I'm glad you

[2:02:02] brought the distinction. It was not

[2:02:05] because I've dealt I' I've nerded out on

[2:02:07] this stuff for a long time. I knew it

[2:02:08] was not exactly what you guys were

[2:02:09] discussing earlier. So, I wanted to

[2:02:11] bring it to everybody's attention.

[2:02:13] As consumers, as somebody who's served

[2:02:15] ads, nobody wants more ads. I'm thinking

[2:02:17] about as a resident, I'm thinking about

[2:02:19] kids, all that sort of targeting. Just

[2:02:20] wanted to bring it up. I think the more

[2:02:22] important issue though is thinking about

[2:02:24] again just because it's how it is today

[2:02:27] doesn't mean that's what it's going to

[2:02:28] be like tomorrow. New Jersey could

[2:02:30] change its rules next year, rebules next

[2:02:33] year and we see how fast technology is

[2:02:35] changing and you know the uh from my

[2:02:39] perspective has been getting worse for

[2:02:41] the consumer. And so just thinking about

[2:02:43] what putting those parameters in place

[2:02:45] now as you think about um as you think

[2:02:47] about this deal whatever you call it.

[2:02:49] And that's exactly what we're doing by

[2:02:51] saying this billboard can't do that.

[2:02:53] >> Yeah. I was going to say what what um do

[2:02:55] you suggest as someone who's uh let's

[2:02:58] call you somewhat of an expert. You've

[2:03:00] been doing this for 20 years. So you're

[2:03:01] talking about what parameters we should

[2:03:03] consider, but what you've heard us

[2:03:04] talking about some of our concerns. I

[2:03:07] think it's quite clear that invasion of

[2:03:09] privacy is not a public benefit to the

[2:03:11] residents of Redbank. We've heard about

[2:03:13] a lot of the benefits that you're

[2:03:14] espousing, but invasion of privacy is

[2:03:16] certainly, I think we'll all agree, is

[2:03:18] not a benefit to anyone in the town

[2:03:20] >> to invade anybody's privacy.

[2:03:21] >> Correct.

[2:03:21] >> Well, I think the point is that a lot of

[2:03:23] the third parties that you're dealing

[2:03:25] with arguably are, right? They're

[2:03:28] tracking your phone.

[2:03:29] >> It's

[2:03:29] >> there's a circular kind of advertising

[2:03:31] going on here. It's not the billboard,

[2:03:33] it's the other it's the other third

[2:03:34] party and everyone's doing it.

[2:03:35] >> Well, it was with it was by consent.

[2:03:38] >> I understand somebody clicked the

[2:03:40] consent when they signed up or whatever.

[2:03:42] But again, this is not specific to the

[2:03:44] billboard use, which is what we're here

[2:03:46] for. You're talking about a much bigger

[2:03:49] issue that's plaguing the world as

[2:03:52] opposed to this particular use at this

[2:03:55] location.

[2:03:56] >> I understand, but I want to finish my

[2:03:57] question to the witness or, you know, to

[2:03:59] the resident. So, you're in the business

[2:04:01] for 20 years. What parameters or what

[2:04:04] else do you want us to consider? What

[2:04:06] I'm listening, what else can we ask or

[2:04:08] what else can we ask of them? They're willing to take down eight

[2:04:11] faces.

[2:04:13] So

[2:04:14] that seems to be

[2:04:17] pretty good. Um right. Um we have one. I

[2:04:21] guess the question I would have for Miss

[2:04:23] Kimco is what makes this one site eight

[2:04:25] times as valuable? Um so we didn't hear

[2:04:28] that yet.

[2:04:29] >> I can answer that.

[2:04:29] >> But before you answer that, do you have

[2:04:32] you're asking us to be uh cognizant of

[2:04:35] certain parameters and things like that?

[2:04:36] Like what specifically else do you think

[2:04:37] we should be asking her? and and and a

[2:04:39] good so uh I will say uh kind of came

[2:04:43] here last minute bit jetlagged uh for

[2:04:46] different so but then I have not give

[2:04:48] much thought to this ahead of time so I

[2:04:50] was kind of spitball but I think based

[2:04:53] on what I know what I've read about out

[2:04:55] front

[2:04:57] I'm not really that concerned about

[2:04:58] their data collection right now it's

[2:05:00] just more

[2:05:02] stipulating that like they they you know

[2:05:05] actually and again based on New Jersey

[2:05:06] right now they can't go to first party

[2:05:08] data collection because they would my

[2:05:10] understanding is have a whole set of

[2:05:12] like regulations, right?

[2:05:12] >> But we're committing even if the law

[2:05:14] changes we're not going to do it.

[2:05:15] >> Okay. And that's so again I don't have

[2:05:16] but and so

[2:05:17] >> that's what we offered

[2:05:18] >> if if if that's the case then yeah it's

[2:05:20] just kind of like doubling down there

[2:05:22] just you know whether it's the um type

[2:05:25] because the other thing also is if

[2:05:26] they're if they are not sending any data

[2:05:27] to the third part to the third parties

[2:05:29] like if it's it's more it's more kind of

[2:05:33] keeping the status quo as it is. Um,

[2:05:35] that's what I more want to encourage you

[2:05:37] guys to like think about. And if you

[2:05:38] guys already have that all in place,

[2:05:39] then great.

[2:05:40] >> I don't think we do. I mean, what we

[2:05:42] heard a lot is we we asked a lot of

[2:05:43] questions about how do the ads get

[2:05:45] placed? You know, how much lead time do

[2:05:47] you need um before an ad is approved

[2:05:49] before it's shown? But that's all based

[2:05:52] on um today's technology and uh the

[2:05:55] policies of the company right now. But

[2:05:57] the use variance is indefinite. And so I

[2:06:00] think your your point about how does

[2:06:01] technology change over time is

[2:06:03] considered in the use when we're

[2:06:05] considering the variance.

[2:06:06] >> Yeah. Are are you guys keeping any I

[2:06:09] know you're not selling are you keeping

[2:06:10] any first party data or any anything

[2:06:12] else?

[2:06:12] >> Not to my knowledge.

[2:06:13] >> No. And again it's anonymous. And to

[2:06:15] address your question, Mr. Hegno, I

[2:06:17] think that you you you made my point is

[2:06:20] that the type of um

[2:06:23] use of data that Mr. Ramirez is talking

[2:06:26] about where it's targeted to your phone.

[2:06:28] We have eight faces now that out front

[2:06:31] has leases for and could gather all the

[2:06:34] same data for from those very eight

[2:06:37] spaces. Nine spaces, I'm sorry, nine

[2:06:39] faces. So we're going from having nine

[2:06:42] places where we can use third party data

[2:06:44] or anyone could where we're giving up

[2:06:46] any use of that property at all and now

[2:06:49] it's all just being on one. So the

[2:06:51] benefit is is the reduction in the

[2:06:53] number and as far as why a digital is

[2:06:58] more uh lucrative. I believe that Andrew

[2:07:01] could testify because it opens up to a

[2:07:03] much wider array of users.

[2:07:06] >> Correct. Well, it also is more

[2:07:07] affordable for the local advertisers.

[2:07:09] Think of it as like a pizza pie, which

[2:07:11] has always been an example used where

[2:07:13] you buy a slice of pizza or instead of

[2:07:16] buying the whole entire pie for a static

[2:07:18] billboard, you have to buy that entire

[2:07:20] billboard for a set period of time.

[2:07:22] >> Cumulative, excuse my pronunciation, let

[2:07:25] me say it better. Cumulatively,

[2:07:28] when you add up all the slices of pie,

[2:07:30] there's potential for you to earn more

[2:07:32] than there would be for one user to use

[2:07:34] one billboard for a month.

[2:07:36] >> Correct? So that's the distinction as to

[2:07:39] why they're more lucrative,

[2:07:41] >> why you're willing to give up the eight

[2:07:43] and for the one.

[2:07:45] >> Yes.

[2:07:47] And and also just as it goes to the the

[2:07:50] particular suitability, this location is

[2:07:54] a better, more appropriate location for

[2:07:56] the type of advertising because it's in

[2:07:58] the center of your business district on

[2:08:00] a very busy road where some of the other

[2:08:02] billboards might not be in areas as

[2:08:05] appropriate as this one. So that's also

[2:08:07] one of the reasons

[2:08:10] >> one one other thought just came up. Um

[2:08:13] do you guys uh if you can't sell all

[2:08:15] your inventory do you know what happens

[2:08:17] to like the remnant inventory is

[2:08:20] >> saying I didn't understand a question.

[2:08:21] >> Um so and I haven't done an out of home

[2:08:24] buy in a long time but like you guys you

[2:08:26] know you have this many impressions to

[2:08:28] sell this many slots a day a month

[2:08:30] however you're selling it. What happens

[2:08:32] if you don't if you don't sell all the

[2:08:33] inventory? Meaning if there's extra

[2:08:35] slots, yeah,

[2:08:36] >> I think they get used more for the

[2:08:38] >> for the public service.

[2:08:39] >> Public service.

[2:08:40] >> Is that is that is that purely where it

[2:08:42] goes or could that go like do you guys

[2:08:43] have like like a extended network of

[2:08:45] partners that could then serve ads?

[2:08:47] >> Not to my knowledge. No,

[2:08:49] >> I would speaking to the

[2:08:51] >> Sorry, not not to my knowledge. I would

[2:08:53] just dig in there in case there is

[2:08:56] uh there's a ton of um just examples of

[2:08:59] advertisers

[2:09:00] having their ads appear on and this is

[2:09:02] not out of homes is like on the internet

[2:09:04] and stuff like that being p being thrown

[2:09:06] onto like what they call remnant

[2:09:07] inventory stuff that was not sold and

[2:09:09] being on like you know gambling sites

[2:09:10] and stuff that they didn't want to be on

[2:09:12] and so I don't quite know what the

[2:09:14] equivalent could be here other than kind

[2:09:16] of reselling the space that your sales

[2:09:18] team wasn't able to sell something going

[2:09:21] up

[2:09:21] >> that would be given away that would be

[2:09:22] giving away valuable advertising space

[2:09:25] for free and it would devalue.

[2:09:27] >> It's not giving it away. You guys just

[2:09:29] sell it at a big discount like somebody

[2:09:30] else sells it for you. It's like this.

[2:09:32] And so I don't I I I'm not I don't know

[2:09:33] if you guys do that. If the sales team

[2:09:35] does that, you probably could put

[2:09:37] something in there that Red Bank gets

[2:09:38] whatever unsold inventory on top of the

[2:09:41] 12 and a half% if if it happens.

[2:09:43] >> That that doesn't happen that there is

[2:09:45] no discounted ad if it's not sold. It

[2:09:47] either goes to the community service

[2:09:49] >> or they run each ad that they already

[2:09:52] have for a few more seconds.

[2:09:54] >> Okay.

[2:09:54] >> To fill up the instead of eight ads,

[2:09:56] it's six.

[2:09:57] >> Yeah.

[2:09:57] >> Not not more seconds. Sorry, Jen. To

[2:09:59] clarify, it's just instead of running

[2:10:01] the it's 8second ads, but instead of

[2:10:03] eight advertisers, it's just the six

[2:10:05] that you know that have that have been

[2:10:07] sold.

[2:10:07] >> I'm sorry. I meant that they get each ad

[2:10:09] gets longer time, not in that increment.

[2:10:13] >> That's it. Yeah. I mean, um, I can stop

[2:10:16] and talk for a long time.

[2:10:20] >> I have just one question.

[2:10:22] >> Oh, sorry.

[2:10:23] >> One quick question. This proposed

[2:10:25] billboard has two sides, correct?

[2:10:28] >> Correct.

[2:10:28] >> Now, will both sides always show the

[2:10:30] same ad?

[2:10:33] >> Uh, no. There are separate ID numbers on

[2:10:35] the billboards. It would be two

[2:10:36] different.

[2:10:37] >> So, there's 16 impressions then, not

[2:10:40] eight. Correct.

[2:10:43] When you say impressions,

[2:10:45] >> well, so there's um eight second in a cycle,

[2:10:52] >> but if there's two sides,

[2:10:54] >> sign gets one of gets that same number,

[2:10:59] >> right? But the now the ads could be

[2:11:01] different. So there could be 16

[2:11:05] different 8second Yes in one cycle. So

[2:11:09] the ad facing east could be different

[2:11:13] than the ad facing west.

[2:11:15] >> Yes. Unless someone purchased it

[2:11:17] >> for both sides. Correct.

[2:11:19] >> Okay. I just wanted to clarify that.

[2:11:23] >> Um I also just had a point of

[2:11:24] clarification. You mentioned earlier

[2:11:26] that there's nothing on the app that on

[2:11:28] the billboard that would actually allow

[2:11:29] you to collect data. But we had said you

[2:11:32] had said earlier that there are video

[2:11:33] cameras for fail safe. So the hardware

[2:11:35] is there right? You do have real time.

[2:11:37] It's facing the actual signed display

[2:11:40] itself. So this is the billboard. The

[2:11:42] camera is camera is facing the actual

[2:11:45] display. So we can monitor the display.

[2:11:47] It's not facing out to the public. It's

[2:11:49] not looking at cars. It's only looking

[2:11:51] at the display to make sure that it's

[2:11:53] running properly and if there's an

[2:11:55] issue, it goes black and we make sure it

[2:11:57] goes black through.

[2:11:58] >> So the use case that was for tampering.

[2:12:00] So if you could see someone tampering.

[2:12:02] So how does that work if it's facing in

[2:12:04] >> tampering the screen? tampering the

[2:12:06] screen.

[2:12:07] >> Yeah, that's not tampering the not not

[2:12:09] tampering any part of the steel

[2:12:11] structure. Okay, it's with regard to

[2:12:13] it's facing the screen to know one is

[2:12:15] someone tampering with the screen. Two,

[2:12:17] is there a glitch on the screen? So,

[2:12:19] does it go all white?

[2:12:20] >> Okay.

[2:12:21] >> Is it is it doing something that would

[2:12:24] need it to be shut off immediately?

[2:12:26] >> Okay. And that's for monitoring the

[2:12:28] screen.

[2:12:29] >> Right. And so when when you had said you

[2:12:31] would be very comfortable with the

[2:12:32] condition that you won't collect like we

[2:12:34] could write into that that those cameras

[2:12:35] stay facing the screen. Okay.

[2:12:38] >> Um similarly there are sensors on the

[2:12:41] sign

[2:12:42] >> for light right.

[2:12:44] >> Yeah. I just want to be clear that we

[2:12:45] had said there was no hardware but there

[2:12:46] is it's just for different use cases.

[2:12:48] >> No no no. So the and I'm sorry we

[2:12:50] weren't clear. There's no

[2:12:52] >> there's no data collection.

[2:12:54] >> Data collector. Correct.

[2:12:55] >> Fair. That's right. data

[2:12:59] » and there won't be you said correct.

[2:13:00] >> Correct.

[2:13:01] >> If the board approved this then yes

[2:13:03] that's correct.

[2:13:04] >> Okay.

[2:13:05] >> And you're guaranteeing there won't be

[2:13:06] on eight other faces in town.

[2:13:09] >> We'll close the public portion of

[2:13:11] questions for this witness. Let's move

[2:13:14] on to your next one.

[2:13:17] >> Thank you board members.

[2:13:19] >> Ready? Let's go.

[2:13:22] >> I should have drank this a little

[2:13:23] slower. Mr. Mass. Well,

[2:13:26] >> okay.

[2:13:27] >> We only got 45 minutes left, so

[2:13:29] >> keep going. All right.

[2:13:32] >> All right. If you could state your name

[2:13:34] and address.

[2:13:39] » Daniel Dockerty, Dynamic Engineering,

[2:13:42] 1904 Main Street, Lake Ko, New Jersey.

[2:13:45] And I didn't spell my last name. Daniel

[2:13:47] Dockerty. D O U G H E R T Y.

[2:13:53] >> Okay. Hey. Do you swear that the

[2:13:54] information and testimony you're about

[2:13:55] to provide will be the truth to the best

[2:13:57] of your knowledge to help you guide God?

[2:13:58] >> Yes, I do.

[2:13:59] >> Okay. And just for the record, you're

[2:14:00] testifying in your capacity as

[2:14:02] >> professional engineer.

[2:14:04] >> And your licenses and certifications and

[2:14:06] qualifications are current, up to date,

[2:14:08] and in good standing.

[2:14:09] >> Yes, they are.

[2:14:10] >> And I believe you testified in round

[2:14:12] one.

[2:14:12] >> I absolutely did.

[2:14:14] >> Okay.

[2:14:14] >> Yeah.

[2:14:15] >> Don't hold that against him, Mr.

[2:14:17] Kennedy.

[2:14:17] >> We have some new.

[2:14:18] >> Okay.

[2:14:19] >> We have some new

[2:14:21] take a moment to Yeah,

[2:14:23] >> Dan, just give the board the benefit of

[2:14:25] your education and how long you've been

[2:14:27] a licensed professional engineer.

[2:14:29] >> Certainly, I'm a graduate of Villanova

[2:14:30] University with a bachelor's in civil

[2:14:32] engineering. I'm a licensed engineer in

[2:14:33] the state of New Jersey since 1999.

[2:14:37] Uh, and I'm a principal partner with

[2:14:39] dynamic engineering consultants since um

[2:14:41] I've been there since 2005.

[2:14:43] >> And you've been accepted as an expert in

[2:14:44] the field of engineering in hundreds of

[2:14:46] hearings throughout

[2:14:47] >> Yeah, I would say over 100 boards

[2:14:48] throughout New Jersey and of course here

[2:14:50] in Redbank.

[2:14:51] >> Great. Thank you. Thank you. So, being

[2:14:54] that we just qualified him as an expert,

[2:14:56] I'm going to turn it over to Dan to have

[2:14:58] him walk through the exhibits that were

[2:15:00] prepared and address some of the

[2:15:01] concerns and then we'll uh go from

[2:15:03] there. So, um I'm going to just

[2:15:05] introduce this exhibit that was already

[2:15:07] uh read in. This is the aerial exhibit

[2:15:10] sheet one of one dated September 1st,

[2:15:14] 2026.

[2:15:15] Um, this is just an aerial photo view of

[2:15:18] the location. Very similar to the uh

[2:15:21] aerial map that's in your plan set. For

[2:15:24] now, I'm really only going to be

[2:15:25] referencing stuff that would be um

[2:15:27] similar to that, but it does change a

[2:15:28] little bit. There are some lighting,

[2:15:30] there's some lighting data on there that

[2:15:32] I'll get into later in my testimony. Uh,

[2:15:34] but for now, I'm really just looking at

[2:15:35] the location of the site. Um, I'm sure

[2:15:38] you're all familiar with the site. Uh

[2:15:40] we're located at 56 Newman Springs Road

[2:15:43] uh block 9701 lot 44. It's the existing

[2:15:47] uh Circus Wine and Liquors building. Um

[2:15:50] and we're proposing a new uh two-faced

[2:15:52] um or dual faced billboard uh LED

[2:15:55] billboard. Um the site's located on the

[2:15:58] north side of Newman Springs Road

[2:16:00] adjacent to the boundary and the border

[2:16:03] with Shrewsbury to the south. We're

[2:16:05] about halfway in between uh Route 35

[2:16:08] Broad Street to the east and on our

[2:16:11] west, the next major intersection would

[2:16:13] be the the Conrail uh Railroad crossing.

[2:16:16] That's the the freight railroad that

[2:16:17] goes across Newman Springs Road. Um and

[2:16:19] then beyond that would be Shrewsbury

[2:16:21] Avenue beyond the the our picture here.

[2:16:23] Uh we're located in the HB Highway

[2:16:26] business zone.

[2:16:28] Um behind us um and to the north is uh

[2:16:32] Calpacy Park. Uh we've got uh ball

[2:16:35] fields there both for school and

[2:16:36] probably municipal use. I would expect

[2:16:38] the school fields uh further to the

[2:16:40] north of Count Basy Park or north side

[2:16:42] of Count Basy Park are lit with uh

[2:16:44] stansions as are the basketball courts

[2:16:47] um and the parking lot that's um to our

[2:16:50] north uh west. um that is a residential

[2:16:54] zone, the RD zone, but it it it is of

[2:16:58] note that our site's probably about 800

[2:17:00] ft or so from the nearest residence,

[2:17:02] which would be um to the northwest, just

[2:17:05] um just past the um to to the west of

[2:17:07] the basketball courts. If you can see

[2:17:09] them on your plan

[2:17:11] to our uh south is um as I mentioned

[2:17:15] before, Shrewsbury. This is the B1 B uh

[2:17:18] business district in Shrewsbury. And

[2:17:20] then behind that, there are some

[2:17:21] residential uses um the R3 and R4 zones

[2:17:25] uh in the neighborhoods that are behind

[2:17:28] um that first block of of commercial

[2:17:30] uses on on Newman Springs Road. And also

[2:17:33] there's some commercial uses on Haden

[2:17:34] Avenue uh south of Newman Springs Road.

[2:17:49] So, I I'll get into this exhibit. I

[2:17:50] wanted to pull down the aerial right

[2:17:52] now. Um,

[2:17:54] so for for the location of our site,

[2:17:57] what we're doing on site is we're taking

[2:18:00] the proposed billboard. It's being put

[2:18:01] and this is just on simply on the site

[2:18:03] plan. It's being put within um a

[2:18:06] landscape island that is immediately

[2:18:09] adjacent to the existing circus wine and

[2:18:12] liquors sign. that island that houses

[2:18:14] that sign is is small. We're just

[2:18:17] expanding that concrete island to the

[2:18:19] west probably by 50 to 100% expansion.

[2:18:23] Um that c that curved concrete island

[2:18:26] still fits within the parking scheme and

[2:18:29] all the striping in the parking lot. So

[2:18:31] there's no impacts to the existing

[2:18:33] parking layout or drives or circulation.

[2:18:36] And all we're really doing is providing

[2:18:37] some space to be able to relocate the

[2:18:39] new sign or sorry relocate the existing

[2:18:41] sign and to place the pole for the new

[2:18:43] sign.

[2:18:43] >> And when you say relocate the existing,

[2:18:45] as you're going to get in through

[2:18:46] testimony, we're not just relocating the

[2:18:48] existing, we're actually reducing it in

[2:18:50] height significantly.

[2:18:51] >> That's correct. Okay.

[2:18:52] >> And that brings me to my next exhibit.

[2:18:55] This is sign detail comparison exhibit

[2:18:58] sheet one of one

[2:18:59] >> and this is the horizontal one. So

[2:19:01] that's A8 Kevin.

[2:19:02] >> That's correct. Thank you.

[2:19:05] And this is dated September 1st, 2026.

[2:19:10] Um,

[2:19:13] I'm embarrassed to say that I'm the

[2:19:15] reason we have to have this exhibit.

[2:19:17] When we submitted the plans to the

[2:19:18] board, um, we misrepresented the

[2:19:21] location of the existing circus sign in

[2:19:24] the detail at the bottom left corner of

[2:19:26] the site of of the site plan set.

[2:19:28] >> Explain to the board what each box is.

[2:19:31] So on the left side is the submitted

[2:19:34] version. So that's going to match what

[2:19:36] you have on the plan set in in in your

[2:19:39] um in your packets. And on the right is

[2:19:42] the reason we prepared this exhibit. And

[2:19:44] the reason is you'll see on the left

[2:19:46] hand side the existing circus sign which

[2:19:49] is grayed back in color and higher than

[2:19:52] the proposed one is shown further into

[2:19:55] the site. Okay. And that's actually the

[2:19:58] opposite of reality. The reality is on

[2:20:01] the right hand side of this sheet that

[2:20:04] the circus um wine and liquors or wine

[2:20:08] and beer and spirits sign is actually

[2:20:09] closer to the left which is where Newman

[2:20:11] Springs Road is and where our property

[2:20:13] frontage is measured front yard set back

[2:20:15] from. And part of the reason for this

[2:20:17] exhibit

[2:20:19] now corrected is that I think it was the

[2:20:21] board planner had questioned where is

[2:20:24] the new circus wine sign and where is

[2:20:27] the billboard sign going in relation not

[2:20:30] only in location to the existing circus

[2:20:34] sign but in size and height and and

[2:20:36] everything else. So the intent of this

[2:20:38] exhibit is to show that the taller

[2:20:40] circus sign is actually going away and

[2:20:42] being replaced with that much smaller

[2:20:43] one.

[2:20:44] >> That's correct. Okay.

[2:20:46] And both the circus sign, the face of

[2:20:50] the new circus sign and the edge of the

[2:20:52] face of the billboard are going to be

[2:20:54] set back. How far? Uh, in numbers?

[2:20:59] >> I I'll start with the existing. So, the

[2:21:00] existing circus sign is about 11.4t

[2:21:04] from the rightway. That's our setback.

[2:21:07] and we'll be um reconstructing that sign

[2:21:11] further into the site to increase the

[2:21:14] setback to 15 feet

[2:21:16] and the sign will be much lower than it

[2:21:19] is right now. Right now it's 33.4 ft

[2:21:21] tall and we'll be lowering it to 20 ft

[2:21:24] tall.

[2:21:24] >> And I think importantly, Dan, typically

[2:21:26] when this board or the planning board

[2:21:28] sees site plans, you're measuring the

[2:21:30] sign distance to the base of the sign.

[2:21:32] Where's the pole going to be? But these

[2:21:34] numbers are not where the pole is going

[2:21:36] to be. the pole's going to be in much

[2:21:37] further because of the type of the sign

[2:21:39] and and the direction in which it will

[2:21:41] address the street. We're actually

[2:21:43] measuring the setback to the edge of the

[2:21:45] face of the sign.

[2:21:47] >> That's correct. That's correct. It's a

[2:21:48] 10x10 sign. It's the same sign face in

[2:21:51] existing conditions that we're going to

[2:21:52] be proposing. So, there's no change in

[2:21:54] the dimensions of the sign or or the

[2:21:56] nature of the size of that panel. Um the

[2:21:59] existing sign you'll see on this

[2:22:00] exhibit, uh again, keep looking at the

[2:22:03] right hand side. um is has four columns

[2:22:06] on it and some cross bracing. Um all of

[2:22:09] that is going to be removed. We're going

[2:22:11] to have a monopol that holds the sign.

[2:22:13] So it'll be more of a traditional and

[2:22:14] less structural kind of look to that

[2:22:16] sign. Um and then as you can see um

[2:22:19] above the sign um we have the proposed

[2:22:22] billboard, the left hand side of the new

[2:22:25] sign and the left hand side of the

[2:22:28] billboard lineup. They both have the

[2:22:30] same setback of 15 ft from the right

[2:22:32] from Newman Springs Road. rightway. The

[2:22:35] proposed sign is um uh 43.5

[2:22:38] ft tall. 436 in

[2:22:41] >> 43.5 ft tall.

[2:22:42] >> That's correct.

[2:22:45] >> And um the dimensions are are appro I'll

[2:22:48] give you approximate dimensions. There's

[2:22:49] very exact numbers on here um that match

[2:22:52] the um outfronts exact numbers, but it's

[2:22:55] about 10 1/2 ft by 36 and 2 1/2 ft. And

[2:23:00] I I'll read that out just for the record

[2:23:02] real quick. So, it's 10 ft 5 and 6364

[2:23:08] in high.

[2:23:11] And the panel is in width 36 ft 2 and

[2:23:17] 4164s

[2:23:19] of an inch wide. Um, again, roughly 106

[2:23:24] x 36 is kind of the way uh outfront

[2:23:27] refers to this panel. Um,

[2:23:31] the total panel area is 380 square uh

[2:23:34] square feet. 380.26

[2:23:36] square feet. Um,

[2:23:38] >> I'm sorry. 38

[2:23:40] >> 26 square feet.

[2:23:44] >> That's a total panel area for each side.

[2:23:52] And just I know it's on the site plan

[2:23:54] and not on this exhibit, but the when we

[2:23:56] talk about the the double-sided and in

[2:23:59] reference to Mr. Light's question,

[2:24:02] the signs are at each at an angle. It's

[2:24:04] a V. So, it's not back to back with each

[2:24:07] other. It's it's the spread V, so it's

[2:24:09] not directly perpendicular

[2:24:14] to the road. Correct.

[2:24:15] >> That's correct. That's correct. It's

[2:24:16] angled slightly to face face the roadway

[2:24:20] oncoming and traffic from both east and

[2:24:22] west. Um I just mentioned there's not

[2:24:26] many site improvements here. I just

[2:24:27] wanted to mention we will have

[2:24:28] electrical service to both separate

[2:24:31] electric service to both the new sign

[2:24:33] and the relocated existing sign. Um

[2:24:36] there's space um on that concrete island

[2:24:39] to allow for any kind of transformer

[2:24:41] that might be required. I would doubt

[2:24:42] that there's going to be a specific

[2:24:43] transformer pad mounted that would be

[2:24:45] necessary, but in any event, there's

[2:24:47] room in that landscape island for it.

[2:24:49] Um, and all of the services will be

[2:24:51] below ground.

[2:24:54] >> Do you use a hardwired internet

[2:24:56] connection for the camera and the

[2:24:58] display?

[2:25:00] >> I would have to

[2:25:00] >> That's a great question.

[2:25:01] >> That is a really good question.

[2:25:10] » Yeah, wire. It's what?

[2:25:12] >> Wireless.

[2:25:17] » Your I'm sorry. Is now a good time to

[2:25:19] ask about the Vshape or should I hold

[2:25:21] that?

[2:25:21] >> Um I'll get I'll get there. So you can

[2:25:23] hold off.

[2:25:23] >> So um I just want to talk really quickly

[2:25:26] about the modules. You you probably

[2:25:27] heard a little bit about this um from Mr. Arve. Um the the sign panel is

[2:25:33] made up of uh modules that together make

[2:25:36] up all of the the full sign. Um, and

[2:25:39] each one has numerous LED elements in

[2:25:43] it, light elements, like you know, you

[2:25:45] would see on your oldfashioned TVs. Your

[2:25:48] old fashioned color TVs, if you went

[2:25:49] really close, you could see the little

[2:25:51] elements. So, it's kind of similar to

[2:25:52] that where each one combines. They put

[2:25:55] out different colors, red, uh, uh, red,

[2:25:58] blue, green, uh, to to represent

[2:26:01] combinations that give you that shape,

[2:26:03] just like on a television set back then.

[2:26:05] Um, the modules themselves are

[2:26:06] replaceable. out. Sometimes, you know,

[2:26:08] there might be a a prop one placed

[2:26:11] without the whole screen coming out. Um,

[2:26:13] in the rows of the LEDs, there's louvers

[2:26:18] on the tops of the LED elements. And

[2:26:21] what that does is it reduces the sky

[2:26:23] glow that would come from the LEDs. It's

[2:26:26] like a on a hat for reverse for a visor

[2:26:29] on a hat to keep the rays or the the

[2:26:32] light from going up and and going into

[2:26:34] the sky. That's something that's a dark

[2:26:36] sky you know benefit um that's always in

[2:26:39] there on all these in this in addition

[2:26:42] we have narrow view technology on this

[2:26:46] the

[2:26:48] have kind of like blinders on a horse um

[2:26:51] to keep the conision of light spreading

[2:26:54] from the panel confined um this one is

[2:26:58] um I believe the 25 degree narrow view

[2:27:01] the one we g we showed in previous

[2:27:04] application was a 30°ree. They've now

[2:27:06] developed a 25 degree which we're using.

[2:27:08] Um, and you'll see that in in the next

[2:27:10] exhibit. I'll talk more about that as

[2:27:12] well as the shape.

[2:27:19] So, this exhibit is lighting plan and

[2:27:22] sign view angle exhibit

[2:27:25] >> and that one is A10

[2:27:30] >> sheet one of one dated September 1st,

[2:27:33] 2026.

[2:27:38] Now, this this exhibit has been has a

[2:27:40] lot of data on it. You'll see in front

[2:27:42] of you there's a lot of numbers. You can

[2:27:43] ignore the numbers right now in the

[2:27:44] grid. Um,

[2:27:47] basically what this is showing is how

[2:27:49] the light is projected from each of the

[2:27:52] panels. We're oriented the same where

[2:27:54] we've got east to our right and west to

[2:27:57] our left. And you could see that the the

[2:28:00] cone of of of light as it's being thrown

[2:28:03] from the panels is angled slightly and

[2:28:06] that's and that's a result of that

[2:28:08] Vshape. So it's it's a shallow V. It's

[2:28:11] not a you know it's not a deep wide open

[2:28:12] V. It's it's very shallow. Um there's

[2:28:15] only a slight difference. It's very

[2:28:17] typical for what you see on a road where

[2:28:19] there's not a curve where you're trying

[2:28:21] to advertise to a direction that's then

[2:28:24] turning and then another direction and

[2:28:25] then that V flattens out. Yeah, that V is actual the visibility of the

[2:28:30] sign.

[2:28:32] >> No, well, I'm talking about the V of the

[2:28:34] sign itself. Right. Right.

[2:28:36] >> And and and the cones the cones kind of

[2:28:39] are are showing you that the way they're

[2:28:41] not perfectly symmetrical and lined up

[2:28:43] and they're aimed towards the road.

[2:28:44] That's a result of that V. And if you

[2:28:46] look in closely, you can see the actual

[2:28:47] line work of the structure of the V. So,

[2:28:49] I'm not sure if that answered your V

[2:28:50] question. You can hit me with with your

[2:28:52] question now if you

[2:28:53] >> Sure. Yeah. Mine was more uh procedural,

[2:28:57] I guess you'd say, because we have a

[2:29:00] part of our ordinance for signs does not

[2:29:03] allow for um a Vshape, right? Says the

[2:29:06] signs if it has two faces, they have to

[2:29:07] be parallel. And so I just want I guess

[2:29:10] maybe not a question for you, maybe for

[2:29:11] a town engineer. Are are we uh seeking a

[2:29:14] bulk variance for this tonight?

[2:29:17] Okay.

[2:29:22] Um I don't not the they're seeking bulk

[2:29:25] variances but not for the V that you're

[2:29:29] talking about

[2:29:30] >> because those sign ordinances are made

[2:29:32] for the commercial signs that advertise

[2:29:35] for the business. There are no

[2:29:36] regulations that apply to billboards as

[2:29:39] a principal use. So

[2:29:43] again, as it relates to requirements for

[2:29:47] use that isn't permitted under price

[2:29:49] behards

[2:29:52] were not uh intended to regulate it

[2:29:55] because it's not a permitted use. So

[2:29:57] they are subsumed within the uh variance

[2:30:01] the use variance if it was granted.

[2:30:05] If they're subsumed, then do we I why do

[2:30:08] we have any bulk variances on that we're

[2:30:10] considering tonight?

[2:30:14] » Because I believe that the variances

[2:30:16] that we're seeking are relative to at

[2:30:19] least the lighting on is relative to

[2:30:21] general lighting standards, not just

[2:30:23] signage. But again, out of an abundance

[2:30:26] of caution, because I know Kevin, we

[2:30:28] notice for them, but from a legal

[2:30:30] perspective and I think you'd agree that

[2:30:32] technically they are subsumed within the

[2:30:35] variance because the sign regulations

[2:30:37] were never intended to regulate

[2:30:38] billboards since billboards aren't

[2:30:40] permitted.

[2:30:41] >> Yeah. I mean, so let's just say we're

[2:30:43] talking about a veterary.

[2:30:46] So let's just say we were talking about

[2:30:48] a veterary use and our ordinance would

[2:30:50] say if you're going to have a veterary

[2:30:52] use you have to have a setback of X uh

[2:30:55] and and so because the billboards are

[2:30:57] not permitted we don't have the bulk

[2:30:59] regulation so it is I mean it's still a

[2:31:01] high standard because they have to

[2:31:02] satisfy the use variance but they are

[2:31:06] typically subsumed into the whole

[2:31:09] overall application because there are no

[2:31:11] specifically permitted requirements for

[2:31:13] a billboard because billboards are not

[2:31:15] permitted And similarly, the way that

[2:31:17] we're considered a principal use as

[2:31:20] opposed to an accessory use, we were

[2:31:21] held to the standards of principal

[2:31:23] structure. So there's all kinds of

[2:31:25] different mixed regulations. Um, but

[2:31:28] again to quote Kevin, out of an

[2:31:31] abundance of caution, should the board

[2:31:33] want to dot every eye and cross every

[2:31:34] tea should they approve this,

[2:31:38] certainly you could say that you could

[2:31:40] call out and recognize that it doesn't

[2:31:41] conform to that sign requirement even

[2:31:44] though not designed for this type of

[2:31:45] sign.

[2:31:49] » Okay, I think I understand.

[2:31:55] Okay. So, um just referring back to the

[2:31:57] exhibit, um what we've plotted on here

[2:32:01] um are the design light levels in that

[2:32:05] grid. Those are the small numbers that

[2:32:07] appear throughout the sheet. And we've

[2:32:09] provided um isolux um lines which are

[2:32:14] basically like contour lines but for

[2:32:15] lighting levels. So where you would have

[2:32:18] contour lines on a grading plan to

[2:32:19] represent elevations, we have isol lines

[2:32:22] on our plan to represent the light, the

[2:32:25] level of light. Um

[2:32:29] I I forget if this was under Mr. Arve's

[2:32:31] testimony. So the way the sign functions

[2:32:35] is that it senses the ambient uh light

[2:32:39] whether it's the middle of the day or

[2:32:41] the middle of the night. um and it

[2:32:43] adjusts the brightness of the sign

[2:32:45] accordingly. During the day when you

[2:32:47] have very bright conditions, sun's

[2:32:50] shining, um the sign will be at its

[2:32:53] brightest uh to compete with the

[2:32:56] surrounding elements. I like to I

[2:32:59] usually see those signs when I do see

[2:33:02] them during the day. They it's hard

[2:33:04] sometimes it's hard to even tell that

[2:33:05] they're LED because they're appearing

[2:33:08] like a surface because they're

[2:33:10] appropriately lit like a surface would

[2:33:12] be lit by the sunlight. Um and that's

[2:33:15] the way they kind of manage those

[2:33:16] levels. um if the if it's a more cloudy

[2:33:20] day that that's it's going to dim

[2:33:22] appropriately because the the owner out

[2:33:25] front does not want the sign to be too

[2:33:28] bright for the viewer. They want it your

[2:33:31] the the sign to be visible with the way

[2:33:34] your iris would adjust for the

[2:33:35] surrounding light. And then the same as

[2:33:37] your the dashboard in your car, when you

[2:33:40] get on the car in the car during the

[2:33:41] day, you might not even realize it. the

[2:33:43] dashboard's at its brightest and then

[2:33:45] when uh the sun goes down, my car has a

[2:33:48] little sensor on the dashboard. All of a

[2:33:50] sudden, it goes to dim because it

[2:33:51] recognizes it's night and and it's not

[2:33:53] trying to compete and blow your blow

[2:33:55] your eyes out with brightness.

[2:33:57] >> Um could you very similar

[2:34:00] >> I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I I don't mean to

[2:34:02] interrupt, but sometimes we move on and

[2:34:03] then I forget my question. So, you were

[2:34:05] just talking about that you said at its

[2:34:07] brightest and so I was asking could you

[2:34:08] quantify that range? What's the

[2:34:09] brightest and what is it um down to? But

[2:34:12] what it what it does I'll I'll have more

[2:34:14] on

[2:34:15] >> that particular in a in a few minutes

[2:34:17] >> few minutes but um

[2:34:19] >> that's we're going to get to the

[2:34:20] luminance and the hits and that's where

[2:34:22] that's more appropriate. So, because

[2:34:24] we're um measuring the ambient light,

[2:34:29] measuring how much light is hitting a

[2:34:32] sensor that's on the sign from the sky,

[2:34:35] from from surrounding lights, if you're

[2:34:38] in a situation where you've got a a low

[2:34:40] sign, other lights might be lighting

[2:34:42] that at night. Um,

[2:34:44] >> does each side of the sign have its own

[2:34:47] ambient sensor?

[2:34:50] Is there mult?

[2:34:53] >> No, there's just one for both sides.

[2:34:56] >> So, if the sun is setting in the west

[2:35:00] and hitting the billboard on the west

[2:35:03] side, it will make the light brighter.

[2:35:09] So, if you're driving west and you're

[2:35:11] seeing the east sign, that's going to be

[2:35:14] >> well, well, it's the sensor faces up, so

[2:35:18] it's it's not going to read like a like

[2:35:20] a spotlight hitting it and then changing

[2:35:22] the brightness on the sign. It's going

[2:35:24] to measure the ambient light coming down

[2:35:28] that you would read on a surface.

[2:35:29] >> Okay. So, as the sun as the sun moves

[2:35:32] east to west and this sign faces east

[2:35:35] and west,

[2:35:36] >> correct?

[2:35:37] um one side is going to be appear darker

[2:35:40] than the other.

[2:35:41] >> Yeah. So, so if you were in a sunset

[2:35:44] scenario, okay, the the levels are going

[2:35:47] to be coming down. All right. Um but

[2:35:50] >> Yeah. Or the sunrise scenario,

[2:35:51] >> right? And and and there might be during

[2:35:54] that, you know, small amount of time,

[2:35:56] there might be although the signs are

[2:35:58] lit the same, the backlighting will be

[2:36:01] different because one side's the east

[2:36:02] and one side's the west and that's

[2:36:03] sunset or sunrise. So we don't control

[2:36:06] how that backlighting occurs or or or

[2:36:10] gauge the sign that way. It's based upon

[2:36:11] the ambient light that's available to a

[2:36:13] sensor. Um so um and and the reason I

[2:36:17] mention that is and and that's why we go

[2:36:19] into foot candles. That's why measure by

[2:36:20] foot candles. So what we do is we put

[2:36:23] the R sign three foot candles higher

[2:36:27] than the ambient light. And that that's

[2:36:29] kind of the sweet spot to be able to

[2:36:31] view the sign. Um, and the reason we use

[2:36:35] foot candles is because that's what we

[2:36:36] measure. So, we're measuring foot

[2:36:38] candles in our sensor and then we adjust

[2:36:41] the brightness of the sign for that foot

[2:36:43] candle level. Um, and I'll have more

[2:36:46] about that later. Um,

[2:36:48] >> but essentially, and I just want to

[2:36:49] clarify, the foot candles that you're

[2:36:52] showing on this plan are going to be

[2:36:54] consistent, meaning our sign is able to

[2:36:58] adjust to ensure that we're never

[2:37:00] exceeding the foot candles that you're

[2:37:02] showing.

[2:37:03] >> Right. Right. This this is and and this

[2:37:05] is a kind of like a capture in time of

[2:37:08] dark. Okay. And these numbers are we're

[2:37:10] capturing the.3

[2:37:13] and and the relative numbers associated

[2:37:16] with that. Um and and for that reason

[2:37:19] like our three isolux line is this one

[2:37:22] out here. It's the it's the kind of the

[2:37:25] middle dashed line. The reason we use

[2:37:27] that line is because it's the three

[2:37:29] over. So that's kind of like it helps

[2:37:32] describe one sign to another, one uh

[2:37:35] parabola display to another another

[2:37:38] display. If you get to the end of the

[2:37:40] parabola, and if you guys knew how hard

[2:37:42] of a time I had saying that over the

[2:37:44] last six months, you've done very well

[2:37:45] >> that I nailed it just now. When you get

[2:37:48] to the end of that, it's zero.

[2:37:50] >> That's correct.

[2:37:51] >> So, if it's not within that parabola or

[2:37:54] triangle on either side, then it is zero

[2:37:58] foot candles coming from

[2:38:00] >> that. That's correct. So, that mean you

[2:38:02] can't see it.

[2:38:02] >> Just to correct one thing, I misspoke.

[2:38:05] It wasn't priced vimei, Kevin. So in

[2:38:07] case you look it up for me, it's the

[2:38:09] Paleo versus North Brunswick.

[2:38:12] >> Thank you.

[2:38:13] >> Price has to do with sight suitability.

[2:38:15] Paleo has to do with subsuming the bulk

[2:38:18] variances in the use. I apologize.

[2:38:20] >> Got it.

[2:38:21] >> So are you saying outside of the

[2:38:23] furthest

[2:38:25] um shape you won't see?

[2:38:28] >> No, you'll see.

[2:38:29] >> Okay. So So I'll have more on that. So

[2:38:31] this is

[2:38:31] >> Wait, let me just lay first and explain

[2:38:33] it. Sure. When we're talking about foot

[2:38:35] candles, we're talking about light

[2:38:36] that's hitting the ground.

[2:38:39] So part of your ordinance requires

[2:38:42] certain foot candles based on lighting.

[2:38:44] So what we're saying is in a vacuum,

[2:38:47] this sign will never at when you get to

[2:38:50] that edge, there'll be no light hitting

[2:38:53] the ground from our sign. That's what we

[2:38:55] mean. We're going to get to the

[2:38:56] visibility and the knits and everything

[2:38:58] else, but again, there's two metrics.

[2:39:00] There's foot candles on the ground and

[2:39:02] intensity of the light coming at the si

[2:39:04] coming out of the sign at the face of

[2:39:06] the sign. Those are the two standards.

[2:39:09] We're only talking about one right now.

[2:39:11] And and the fun part's going to be is

[2:39:14] when we start talking about the

[2:39:15] calculation for how nets convert to foot

[2:39:18] candles. But we'll wait because it's,

[2:39:20] you know,

[2:39:20] >> and and just just a quick clarification,

[2:39:22] it's over ambient. So the light will be

[2:39:26] on. There'll still be light hitting the

[2:39:27] ground, but that some of that's ambient

[2:39:29] light. We're we're not projecting more

[2:39:32] than the ambient light. So So there is a

[2:39:34] project projection of light, but it's

[2:39:36] just not beyond the ambient light.

[2:39:38] >> Which is the same thing as saying in a

[2:39:40] >> No. No. Yeah. If you're in a field

[2:39:41] somewhere, the ambient light is zero. So

[2:39:43] it's really the same thing.

[2:39:45] >> Exactly. So what we did was we took

[2:39:47] >> Wait. I'm sorry.

[2:39:49] >> Yeah.

[2:39:54] One of the bulk variances is

[2:39:57] >> exceeding 1.5 at the property line.

[2:39:59] >> Correct. And you are at

[2:40:01] >> Okay, I'll I'll tell you right now.

[2:40:02] >> Didn't get there yet.

[2:40:03] >> Okay. All right. Because you're talking

[2:40:05] about.3 foot candles over ambient light,

[2:40:09] but you're really

[2:40:12] at 10 seven, you know. So, can you

[2:40:14] >> So, that that's exactly where I was

[2:40:15] going to go next. So, again, we're using

[2:40:17] foot candles. It might be kind of

[2:40:19] familiar when you're talking about your

[2:40:20] regular site plans and their lighting

[2:40:23] designs and you're talking about, you

[2:40:25] know, what's the what it's a question.

[2:40:28] What's the light putting out and is it

[2:40:30] adequately lighting a site? And it's a

[2:40:32] set standard. There's not photo cells.

[2:40:34] It's on or off, right? Um and again, a

[2:40:37] reminder that's measuring the light that

[2:40:39] hits the ground and reflects off and is

[2:40:42] captured by a meter. That's how you

[2:40:44] measure that. Okay. Um, it's not what

[2:40:48] you look at a light. If you go

[2:40:49] underneath any of those le those those

[2:40:51] light fixtures and look straight up,

[2:40:54] that that has nothing to do with the

[2:40:56] brightness that's on the correct.

[2:40:58] >> Um, so

[2:41:00] um, for the ordinance requirement and a

[2:41:02] half at the property line, what we're

[2:41:05] projecting is what happens in the dark

[2:41:08] at the lowest point of the day when

[2:41:10] we're projecting.3

[2:41:12] over ambient. We're showing where we're

[2:41:15] 1.5 over ambient.

[2:41:19] So if it was completely dark, we're

[2:41:22] showing you where we would be showing

[2:41:24] 1.5.

[2:41:25] >> That makes sense.

[2:41:26] >> Same Jackie as if if I'm trying to give

[2:41:29] you a parking lot light. When you give

[2:41:32] what the foot candles are, it's really

[2:41:35] over ambient because it doesn't take

[2:41:37] into consideration what other lights are

[2:41:38] going to be there. So again,

[2:41:40] >> correct. if there's spillage from

[2:41:42] another site like like what

[2:41:45] >> candles there but we're only giving a

[2:41:48] certain amount to it.

[2:41:49] >> So again I think it the way you're

[2:41:51] describing it was confusing to me and I

[2:41:53] think it's becoming confusing here.

[2:41:56] >> The light sensor reading based on light

[2:41:59] coming from our sign at the property

[2:42:02] line is what? At the highest

[2:42:05] >> at the highest point

[2:42:06] >> at the at the property line

[2:42:07] >> the variance. So it's it's at at its

[2:42:10] highest it's

[2:42:18] yeah 10.6 or 10.7.

[2:42:21] So and that's where I wanted to point

[2:42:23] you to the lines that we added to the

[2:42:26] drawing. We provided a 1.5 line. It's

[2:42:29] the solid line that's um closest the

[2:42:32] solid line that's closest to the sign

[2:42:34] panel. Not the the there's a dash line

[2:42:36] in between the two. So, um, that I'm

[2:42:40] sorry, sorry, it's the dash line closest

[2:42:43] to the panel is the 1.5 line.

[2:42:46] And you can see that area. It come it

[2:42:49] comes out into Newman Springs Road,

[2:42:51] comes back to the sign, goes back out

[2:42:53] into Newman Springs Road, and then it

[2:42:55] goes to our western property neighbor.

[2:42:56] It's the parking lot for the car

[2:42:58] dealership. So, those are the locations

[2:43:00] where we're greater than the 1.5.

[2:43:03] That's part of of the performance

[2:43:05] standards. So, and as it relates to

[2:43:08] exceeding the 1.5, it's not having an

[2:43:10] impact on it's not having a negative

[2:43:13] impact on the neighborhood because it's

[2:43:14] either lighting a roadway

[2:43:17] or it's lighting the parking lot.

[2:43:19] >> Parking lot by their own security

[2:43:22] lighting and stuff. Again, the

[2:43:24] dealerships

[2:43:26] that most of it

[2:43:28] now,

[2:43:32] » well, I would say

[2:43:34] I not

[2:43:37] But it would depend on whether there's

[2:43:39] street lighting

[2:43:46] and and Yeah. Well, and I'll add this

[2:43:48] also. Our photo cells are

[2:43:54] lower than those lights.

[2:43:56] >> Our photo cells are at 43 feet high.

[2:44:00] So, they're receiving ambient light at

[2:44:03] 43 feet. any light source that's

[2:44:07] downfacing, flood lights, street lights

[2:44:10] that are lower than 483 feet aren't

[2:44:13] being seen by our photo cell. And

[2:44:15] therefore, our lights not being

[2:44:17] increased in in brightness, which makes

[2:44:20] sense because we want the ambient light

[2:44:23] where the sign is to dictate how bright

[2:44:26] the sign is. But the ambient light

[2:44:28] that's on the ground to the ground,

[2:44:31] we're we're using that to dimmer sign,

[2:44:35] but that's not what we're do. That's not

[2:44:38] the result. So, we'll have a dimmer sign

[2:44:42] based upon the ambient light of at night

[2:44:45] and during a day it won't.

[2:44:52] So, it's pretty conservative from that

[2:44:54] nature when you have an elevated sign

[2:44:56] like that.

[2:45:02] Um, so then the next item I wanted to

[2:45:05] point out is the outer limit on this

[2:45:07] exhibit and that's where we go to zero

[2:45:10] on foot candles. So there's no projected

[2:45:14] increase on ambient light at that whole

[2:45:17] perimeter

[2:45:18] >> and that means no projected increase on

[2:45:20] any residential property.

[2:45:21] >> That's correct.

[2:45:24] And that was the second part of that

[2:45:25] design standard was you can't have more

[2:45:28] than 0.1 on any residential property and

[2:45:30] at all residential properties our foot

[2:45:33] candles would be zero.

[2:45:34] >> And so I'll go back to the aerial

[2:45:36] exhibit

[2:45:38] and this is where the important part of

[2:45:41] this exhibit for this discussion occurs.

[2:45:43] That in in yellow that dashed line the

[2:45:46] two cones there that's the same exact

[2:45:48] line that we had on the other plan.

[2:45:50] That's the 00 line. And so you could see

[2:45:53] the distance um to neighboring

[2:45:55] properties. Um I think we're probably

[2:45:59] uh to to the nearest Redbank property is

[2:46:02] over 800 ft. Um I think we're probably

[2:46:05] about 600 feet to the nearest um

[2:46:08] residential property in Shrewsbury.

[2:46:11] Um so you know we we meet all those

[2:46:14] standards. Again we're be below zero.

[2:46:30] Are you done?

[2:46:31] >> No.

[2:46:32] >> Don't.

[2:46:33] >> He's checking his notes to make sure he

[2:46:35] didn't leave anything out relative to

[2:46:36] that section before moving on to the

[2:46:38] next one.

[2:46:38] >> Okay. I just was curious about the

[2:46:40] pause.

[2:46:43] >> Was I Was I correct on that? Yes.

[2:46:50] So there's there's one more for standard

[2:46:52] I was mentioned. Um the first one was

[2:46:57] for glare that was the the 1.5 at the

[2:47:00] property and then the 0.1 and then

[2:47:02] there's a lighting and illumination.

[2:47:04] It's actually in the next section and it

[2:47:06] talks about not exceeding.5 foot candles

[2:47:09] at the property line. Again it's the

[2:47:11] same result. This requires 0.5. Um, I'm

[2:47:15] not sure why it differs diff differs

[2:47:16] from the glare section, but it is in the

[2:47:18] performance standards. So, we wouldn't

[2:47:20] be meeting that either for those same

[2:47:22] reasons.

[2:47:26] » Okay. So, as requested both in um the

[2:47:29] planning and engineering review and also

[2:47:32] um informal questions that were

[2:47:34] mentioned to us was um compliance with

[2:47:38] dark sky

[2:47:40] uh parameters. The um Dark Sky

[2:47:43] Association is a a private organization

[2:47:48] that supports

[2:47:50] what it kind of what it says, dark sky,

[2:47:52] viewing of constellations, limiting of

[2:47:54] light pollution, etc. Um it's not a

[2:47:57] regulatory agency. It's not a

[2:47:58] jurisdictional element. It's an entity

[2:48:01] that sets standards for for multiple

[2:48:03] things. Um and one of the things they do

[2:48:05] discuss is sign is is LED billboards

[2:48:08] specifically.

[2:48:10] Um, and this is where it's it's a little

[2:48:13] confusing. I if I lose you, feel free to

[2:48:16] ask a question because it gets into some

[2:48:18] science. Um, my parents would both be

[2:48:22] proud. Um, so I me I explained before we

[2:48:27] have foot candles because that's easy.

[2:48:29] The light hits a table, the light hits a

[2:48:31] meter, it's a foot candle. And then I

[2:48:33] talked about but when you look up at the

[2:48:35] light element, that's a totally

[2:48:36] different thing, right? It's like it's

[2:48:38] like a spotlight versus the light that

[2:48:41] the spotlight is throwing. Right now,

[2:48:45] the difference in units in that and the

[2:48:48] what we what we call illuminance is the

[2:48:52] foot candles. Then what's called

[2:48:54] luminance is the focus and the

[2:48:57] brightness of the source. And it's

[2:49:00] measured at the source. It's not

[2:49:02] measured at a different distance. It's

[2:49:04] measured at the source. But what you can

[2:49:06] do is control how it spreads. Okay. So

[2:49:12] the um signs like these they and oh

[2:49:16] sorry that unit is called a knit. That's

[2:49:19] the standard unit for this. It's I've

[2:49:22] one candel

[2:49:25] and that's a knit. Whatever whatever a

[2:49:27] knit is.

[2:49:27] >> It's how bright it is.

[2:49:28] when you're

[2:49:30] looking at the light source.

[2:49:31] >> Right at and you're in front of it.

[2:49:33] >> It's measured at the light source.

[2:49:36] Mr.

[2:49:37] >> Nit Nit.

[2:49:38] >> That's interesting because it's not an

[2:49:39] anagram for anything. So, I'm not sure

[2:49:41] where that came from.

[2:49:46] » And they say, "Nick,

[2:49:47] >> flesh wound, I tell you."

[2:49:50] >> Um

[2:49:54] >> so uh

[2:49:57] Dark Sky has some standards for that and

[2:49:59] I'm going to work into that. The first

[2:50:01] thing they do, one of the things they

[2:50:02] set forth is they they have a whole kind

[2:50:04] of rec

[2:50:08] what they call EMC's, electronic message

[2:50:11] centers, and and they it even says

[2:50:13] billboards are included in this. They're

[2:50:15] kind of prepped for having these kind

[2:50:17] they even write sample ordinances for

[2:50:20] towns about if they wanted to adopt them

[2:50:22] and help them with that. Um, but what

[2:50:25] they recognize is that different levels

[2:50:28] of activity

[2:50:30] requirements

[2:50:33] for restricting light. Um, so they rate

[2:50:36] their lighting zones LZ0 through LZ4.

[2:50:40] So LZ4 would be the busiest kind of

[2:50:43] location you might have where you're not

[2:50:46] really concerned with light trespass,

[2:50:48] >> like Time Square.

[2:50:49] >> Well, maybe not that. I think time

[2:50:50] square LZ12 because I went there the

[2:50:52] other day and I thought it was broad

[2:50:53] daylight.

[2:50:54] >> Um

[2:50:55] >> but you know it it it it raised for for

[2:50:59] normal not times square that LZ4 would

[2:51:01] be an urban very high a lot of

[2:51:05] operations and then LZ3210

[2:51:08] LZ0 is basically there's no light um and

[2:51:11] therefore you'd have more restrictions

[2:51:12] on light trespass. Um so I I qualify

[2:51:16] this as an LZ3. I'll read you the

[2:51:18] definition. um moderately high ambient

[2:51:22] lighting areas of human activity where

[2:51:24] the vision of human residents and users

[2:51:27] is adapted to moderately high light

[2:51:29] levels. This is a recommended default

[2:51:32] zone for business districts in large

[2:51:35] cities. Okay. The next level down from

[2:51:38] that

[2:51:39] >> well let's talk about the level that

[2:51:40] we're in. So let's

[2:51:41] >> L3.

[2:51:42] >> Yeah. L3. So

[2:51:43] >> again, and I I respect that you want to

[2:51:45] give some context, but this is not a

[2:51:47] primer on dark sky compliance.

[2:51:50] >> Well, to be clear, it's your opinion

[2:51:51] that it's L3, right? Dark Sky has not

[2:51:53] come in and said Red Bank is high.

[2:51:55] >> A couple things, and again, I'm not sure

[2:51:57] why we're going into this level of

[2:51:58] detail as to an organization that sets

[2:52:01] standards that are not enforceable and

[2:52:03] have not been adopted by the bureau. So

[2:52:05] again, this is just for context, but

[2:52:08] again, it's based on their regula, their

[2:52:12] standards. My expert is characterizing

[2:52:15] it as level three, but again, we're not

[2:52:19] bound to it in that it's not been

[2:52:22] adopted by the burrow. So, so the the

[2:52:24] long short answer about dark sky is is

[2:52:27] there's there's no requirements put upon

[2:52:29] this applicant or any applicant on dark

[2:52:31] sky because it's not adopted by the by

[2:52:33] any master plan to adopt a dark sky

[2:52:37] strategy and we have to consider the

[2:52:38] master plan and a use fair. I

[2:52:40] >> I just want I want we want to be fair

[2:52:41] and address it thoroughly for you

[2:52:43] because the question was asked both in

[2:52:44] the review letter and separately. So, we

[2:52:46] >> on fairness that's what we're here to

[2:52:47] do, right? address well

[2:52:49] >> does the use variance have a negative

[2:52:51] impact on the master plan or the

[2:52:53] ordinances?

[2:52:54] >> Well, no. It's whether or not it has a

[2:52:55] substantially negative impact that

[2:52:57] outweighs all the benefits. It's not in

[2:52:59] a vacuum and any variance has a negative

[2:53:01] impact and it it's not does it have does

[2:53:05] it have a negative impact on one small

[2:53:07] element

[2:53:08] >> of the master plan? Again, let's talk

[2:53:11] about what our knits are, how much light

[2:53:13] we're producing, and what that

[2:53:15] translates to into foot candles at

[2:53:18] different distances.

[2:53:21] >> So, we're going to focus on the the wind

[2:53:23] of the nets, the daytime amount of the

[2:53:25] knits. As I said before, when the sign's

[2:53:27] at its brightest, nobody really cares

[2:53:29] how bright it is because it's kept at a reasonable level with ambient

[2:53:33] light. It's at night time that you're

[2:53:34] concerned how bright that's going to be.

[2:53:35] So, we focus on on on the low end. Um,

[2:53:39] so our signs produce when they're white

[2:53:43] and at their lowest. So, in other words,

[2:53:45] we've got low ambient light like our

[2:53:46] point.

[2:53:48] We got low ambient light levels. We're

[2:53:50] putting out on a white sign, pure white,

[2:53:54] no no copy at all, is 300 nits.

[2:53:57] >> So, let's just let's stop there for a

[2:54:00] second. So that would be as if we're

[2:54:01] using our, you know, our flashlights

[2:54:03] work on our phones where it just goes

[2:54:04] white. It would just be like the

[2:54:07] flashlight on the phone when you when

[2:54:08] you light up your screen and there's no

[2:54:11] scenario that we would do that because

[2:54:13] if it was all white, there'd be no

[2:54:14] message to be read.

[2:54:15] >> Correct. The the that's all white. Now,

[2:54:19] different colors have different

[2:54:22] illuminance or luminance values just on

[2:54:25] the color itself, even with the same

[2:54:27] power. So, white puts us fourth at the

[2:54:30] most at 300 nits. Um, the next one down

[2:54:34] is green. Green's about 60%

[2:54:38] of the total power draw. So, it's about

[2:54:40] 180 nits.

[2:54:42] >> So, again, that would be as if it was an

[2:54:43] all green with no message.

[2:54:44] >> That's correct. And and the next one

[2:54:47] down is red. All red, no message. That's

[2:54:51] um about 30%. That's 60 nets. And then

[2:54:54] the next one down, the lowest one is

[2:54:56] blue and that's 10%. So that's 30 nits

[2:55:00] on average.

[2:55:01] >> Yeah, it doesn't make sense to

[2:55:03] >> on average. And this is based upon the

[2:55:05] data that Outfront has monitoring their

[2:55:08] power that they send to the signs. On

[2:55:10] average, they're about 30% or about a third of the total max. So of

[2:55:17] the 300, they're at about a third of

[2:55:20] that. They they average about a hundred.

[2:55:22] And that's due to the different colors

[2:55:23] of the copy being on there at their low

[2:55:26] point.

[2:55:29] » The advertisement with the the the the

[2:55:32] illustration and the text is on average

[2:55:36] 100 minutes. That's what you're saying.

[2:55:38] Correct.

[2:55:38] >> And three and 300 is your white like the

[2:55:42] flashlight on your phone.

[2:55:44] >> But typically, so some may be above 100,

[2:55:46] some may be below, but somebody has

[2:55:48] actually looked at this at Outfront.

[2:55:50] You're saying that your your your

[2:55:53] advertisements on average are 100.

[2:55:55] >> Yes. And we're committing to that.

[2:55:56] >> Thank you.

[2:55:58] >> So, we'll go back to Dark Sky.

[2:56:02] with their lighting levels for

[2:56:04] the LZ3.

[2:56:06] Their level recommendation is 80 nits.

[2:56:09] So, we're really very close to that

[2:56:11] ballpark. And that that varies when you

[2:56:15] change groups within Dark Sky to the

[2:56:17] tune of like 100%.

[2:56:19] So, if you go one level down from Dark

[2:56:21] Side, it goes from 80 to 40. If you go

[2:56:23] one level up, it goes from 80 to 160.

[2:56:25] So, it's a pretty it's a pretty um it's

[2:56:29] more of a neighborhood than an exact

[2:56:32] number. And that's the recommendation um

[2:56:35] that that Dark Sky has. And you can see

[2:56:37] we're really in that ballpark already.

[2:56:39] Um and so it kind of makes sense with what Dark Sky is putting out as far

[2:56:44] as what they think is appropriate for

[2:56:45] communication. So, additionally, dark

[2:56:47] sky has different categories for how to

[2:56:52] mitigate any impact irrespective of the

[2:56:54] nit. So, if you can't get down to the 60

[2:56:56] and and realistically,

[2:56:59] I don't know how realistic that is, but

[2:57:01] you can't get down to 60, there's other

[2:57:03] things that they ask you to do by way of

[2:57:05] mitigation. Yeah.

[2:57:06] >> And and and we're doing almost all of

[2:57:08] those. Correct. Then why don't you just

[2:57:10] without reading from dark sky just list

[2:57:14] what those things are.

[2:57:16] >> So these are known as their best

[2:57:17] management practices. It's best to do as

[2:57:20] many of these as you can. One monitoring

[2:57:24] make sure they're monitored 247. If

[2:57:25] there's any issues, if there's any

[2:57:27] malfunctions, it's handled

[2:57:28] >> which is the

[2:57:30] >> Mr. Arvey handled that in his testimony.

[2:57:32] Sensitive area setback. This is relation

[2:57:35] to parks, wildlife refugees.

[2:57:39] etc. where bright lights might impact

[2:57:40] animals or nature centers. We don't have

[2:57:43] any of that in our vicinity. Um the next

[2:57:46] one is um distraction limitation as far

[2:57:50] as how often the changing of copy and

[2:57:52] how the copy is changed. Again, that's

[2:57:54] all set by DOT.

[2:57:56] >> And let me just and let me just point

[2:57:58] out to the board. So these are general

[2:58:00] standards throughout the country. Not

[2:58:03] every state has the same regulations

[2:58:05] that the DOT does. So the DOT enforces

[2:58:08] that in and of itself through its

[2:58:10] regulations. So we meet that not because

[2:58:13] we're trying. We meet that because we

[2:58:15] have to.

[2:58:15] >> Right.

[2:58:17] And the the recommendation is that set a

[2:58:19] minimum, set a maximum, set standards.

[2:58:22] So not only are standards set in New

[2:58:23] Jersey for us, but we follow them. Um

[2:58:27] number four, gradual brightness

[2:58:28] reduction. We're not turning we're not

[2:58:30] suddenly going dimmer from full blast to lower. It's all done through our

[2:58:35] photo cell. The same way nature operates

[2:58:38] gradually gradually on on the

[2:58:40] brightness, the same way our sign will

[2:58:42] be adjusted. Uh size limits. Um this one

[2:58:45] is is kind of like neither here nor

[2:58:47] there. This is really instruction for a

[2:58:49] regulator to set size limits on where

[2:58:52] they think certain sizes would be

[2:58:54] appropriate or inappropriate. So it

[2:58:55] doesn't really apply to us. And um the

[2:58:58] next one is density limits, meaning the

[2:59:00] density of signs and the frequency of

[2:59:01] the electronic signs. And again, as we

[2:59:04] said, that's already handled by DOT.

[2:59:06] There's no there's, you know, we're

[2:59:07] beyond 3,000 ft where no sign could be.

[2:59:09] >> So for every one of those generally

[2:59:11] accepted practices that are within our

[2:59:13] power to comply with, we are complying

[2:59:15] with that.

[2:59:16] >> That's correct.

[2:59:18] Uh, Miss Crimco, we're going to take

[2:59:20] like

[2:59:21] >> Okay,

[2:59:21] >> I'm going to check with the board

[2:59:23] members to to see if we can extend this

[2:59:27] maybe to 10:00, but I want to ask them

[2:59:30] because they're volunteers. They've been

[2:59:32] here sitting here for three and a half

[2:59:34] hours and at some point you lose

[2:59:37] attention to a lot of the details and I

[2:59:39] want to make sure everybody is on board

[2:59:42] with going till 10:00. So, if you give

[2:59:44] us a couple minutes.

[2:59:46] >> Sure. And you you won't be offended if I

[2:59:48] step out of the room for a moment.

[2:59:50] >> You

[2:59:58] wait a minute. We got to do a roll call.

[3:00:03] >> Anor

[3:00:04] >> here.

[3:00:05] >> Raymond Mass

[3:00:06] >> here.

[3:00:07] >> Greg Fitzgerald

[3:00:08] >> here. We

[3:00:09] >> John Gild

[3:00:10] >> here.

[3:00:10] >> Vincent Light

[3:00:11] >> here.

[3:00:12] >> Paul Kagno

[3:00:13] >> here.

[3:00:14] >> Eugene Harowit

[3:00:15] >> here. Chris Havens

[3:00:17] >> here.

[3:00:18] >> Darthy Cerulo

[3:00:20] must have stepped up.

[3:00:21] >> Yeah, she's here.

[3:00:23] >> So, so we we've decided that we're going

[3:00:26] to live finish with this witness and

[3:00:29] then look to carry it to uh the next

[3:00:32] meeting.

[3:00:33] >> Okay. Great.

[3:00:34] >> Because it's just getting getting a

[3:00:36] little crazy.

[3:00:36] >> Understood. So, I'm going to step away

[3:00:38] from the technical for a second. Okay.

[3:00:40] >> I think that that might be Wait, we're

[3:00:43] missing somebody. Shall we?

[3:00:44] >> Yeah, Dorothy.

[3:00:47] back.

[3:00:51] » While we wait, can I ask one quick

[3:00:53] clarifying question?

[3:00:58] » I I would love to. The problem is is if

[3:01:00] she's not here on any part of it.

[3:01:02] >> Yeah, I don't think it I don't think it

[3:01:04] would really matter.

[3:01:06] >> There she is.

[3:01:06] >> Here she come.

[3:01:09] >> Just give it to I'll I'll stay as long

[3:01:11] as you want. I know you guys want to go

[3:01:12] home, but um

[3:01:13] >> I just quick question. Yeah, the

[3:01:14] billboard has two sides and the proposal

[3:01:18] is to give Redbank 12.5% of the signage.

[3:01:22] Is that both sides or one side?

[3:01:26] >> Both sides.

[3:01:27] That's all. Thank you,

[3:01:30] >> Mr. In case you missed that.

[3:01:34] >> And we're not just giving 12 and a half%

[3:01:36] of one of the faces. It's for both of

[3:01:38] the faces. So that's really 25.

[3:01:42] If I could be pedantic, you mean half is

[3:01:45] 25.

[3:01:47] I'm just playing. I know. I'm kidding.

[3:01:52] >> Okay. So, finish.

[3:01:54] >> Yeah. So, just very briefly, and again,

[3:01:55] this was one of the I know one of the

[3:01:57] board members had asked for this, and I

[3:01:59] just want to make sure that we

[3:02:00] referenced it in the testimony. So,

[3:02:03] there's an exhibit that we moved in as

[3:02:04] A18. Those of you that were at the last

[3:02:07] meeting uh previously recognized this.

[3:02:10] Dan, I'm going to just ask you some

[3:02:12] questions and to confirm it. So, um,

[3:02:15] outfront typically will hire a crane

[3:02:19] and

[3:02:21] place it at the site and hold a flag

[3:02:25] down that's 10 ft in that's the same

[3:02:27] height as the billboard sign. Correct.

[3:02:30] >> That's correct.

[3:02:30] >> And they will hang it in the exact

[3:02:32] location that the Let me just get my

[3:02:35] side. That's the southern end of where

[3:02:38] those billboards would be. Yes.

[3:02:40] >> So the the the flag is held exactly in

[3:02:44] the location as to where the billboard

[3:02:46] will address Newman Springs Road and

[3:02:49] lots of pictures are taken and they're

[3:02:52] taken from all varying distances up and

[3:02:54] down Newman Springs Road in both

[3:02:56] directions.

[3:02:56] >> Correct. And then using your plan and again fortunately you corrected your

[3:03:02] mistake before we finished these um

[3:03:06] renderings using the existence of the

[3:03:09] current sign.

[3:03:12] The uh out front prepared a rendering

[3:03:16] showing existing conditions and proposed

[3:03:19] conditions of exactly what

[3:03:23] people will see from these varying

[3:03:25] locations. So, I'm asking the board to

[3:03:27] take a look at A18. The first page is an

[3:03:30] existing condition and that's traveling

[3:03:32] east.

[3:03:34] And

[3:03:36] based on the picture and the way the

[3:03:37] printout is, it's it's difficult to see

[3:03:40] the sign on the left. Uh the sign

[3:03:43] there's a white spot in the distance. I

[3:03:45] originally thought that was the sign.

[3:03:47] That's not. That's a reflection off of

[3:03:48] the building. The sign is uh adjacent to

[3:03:51] that. Correct.

[3:03:52] >> That's correct.

[3:03:54] And then when you turn the page,

[3:03:58] uh, it shows from 750 ft what the view

[3:04:00] of the billboard would be, uh, moved in

[3:04:03] a little bit to the left on this camera.

[3:04:06] >> That's correct.

[3:04:09] >> And you can't see it, but it it is

[3:04:10] advertising October Fest. Yeah.

[3:04:14] The next page is 500 ft traveling in the

[3:04:17] same direction. And there you can see

[3:04:19] behind the um utility pole uh high up by

[3:04:24] where the light poles are, you see the

[3:04:26] face of the existing sign.

[3:04:27] >> That's correct.

[3:04:29] >> And then as you turn to the next page,

[3:04:33] you see much smaller to the left of that

[3:04:36] the uh new sign and then the uh

[3:04:39] billboard beyond it.

[3:04:42] >> That's correct.

[3:04:43] And then again it repeats the same thing

[3:04:45] at 250 ft existing

[3:04:51] and 250 ft proposed.

[3:04:54] >> Correct.

[3:04:54] >> And this is what the traveling public

[3:04:57] would see driving eastbound. And then as

[3:04:59] you go turn the page, uh it's the same

[3:05:03] thing 750 down to 250 showing exactly

[3:05:07] what would be seen to scale at the exact

[3:05:09] height and size of what's being

[3:05:12] proposed. And as you see it's 750 the liquor store sign you could see the

[3:05:18] relation and then the 500

[3:05:23] and then you go through and I think 250

[3:05:25] is is the best seen as you could see in

[3:05:27] comparison. That's correct.

[3:05:30] >> So, we were asked to provide that. I

[3:05:32] just wanted to not leave tonight before

[3:05:35] we had the opportunity to explain what

[3:05:36] those were.

[3:05:38] >> Are there any questions for Dan?

[3:05:40] >> Any questions from the board?

[3:05:43] >> Um, I don't know if you're the right

[3:05:44] person, but I'm just curious about

[3:05:46] connectivity. Um,

[3:05:48] is the you're using um cellular or is

[3:05:52] there uh fiber? Like how is the

[3:05:55] >> It was going to be there. that was asked

[3:05:57] and we went over quickly. It's going to

[3:05:58] be hard w you mean the internet

[3:05:59] activity.

[3:06:00] >> Uh yeah.

[3:06:01] >> Yeah. The internet connectivity. I'm

[3:06:02] sorry. It'll be hardwired.

[3:06:04] >> So then like you mean like fiber optic

[3:06:07] cable or whatever internet is available

[3:06:10] at that location.

[3:06:12] >> So I think that if you if it is fiber

[3:06:15] then you would the installation would

[3:06:16] require trenching and possibly boring in

[3:06:18] a public right of way.

[3:06:22] Well, it it'll depend on what service is

[3:06:24] available to that location.

[3:06:27] >> Okay.

[3:06:30] >> So,

[3:06:32] >> yeah.

[3:06:32] >> I'm just wondering if it's

[3:06:34] >> it's actually what was said before. It's

[3:06:36] wireless.

[3:06:37] >> Wireless.

[3:06:38] >> It'll be wireless. I apologize.

[3:06:41] >> Originally, it was

[3:06:42] >> okay. So, cellular. Is it 4G LTE or 5G?

[3:06:50] Yeah, it it's a secure uh line. We're

[3:06:52] not I'm not sure the exact um type

[3:06:55] >> secure line like a dedicated network

[3:06:57] slice or

[3:06:58] >> I again that's not my expertise.

[3:07:01] >> Okay.

[3:07:03] Um the reason I'm asking is because the

[3:07:05] infrastructure could determine if you

[3:07:07] need additional application elements. So

[3:07:09] like if you're going to ask for fiber,

[3:07:12] it requires trenching. That might be

[3:07:13] outside of the purview of our approving

[3:07:15] the application. Um, I'm also just kind

[3:07:18] of interested in the up link and the

[3:07:21] down link, but I have a feeling that's

[3:07:22] probably too technical a question.

[3:07:23] >> Yeah, it is. It It's It is. And And just

[3:07:26] to answer the question, whatever

[3:07:27] utilities are required, like any

[3:07:28] application that comes before this

[3:07:30] board, if we're required to uh stub them

[3:07:33] in from the street, we'd be subject to

[3:07:35] whatever the requirements are for

[3:07:37] repaving and patching

[3:07:38] >> permits and all of that.

[3:07:39] >> Oh, of course. Road opening permit. And

[3:07:41] also 520 is a county road, so I think

[3:07:43] we'd need county approval as well.

[3:07:45] >> Okay.

[3:07:46] Thank you.

[3:07:48] >> Okay. Any other questions from the

[3:07:50] board?

[3:07:50] >> Yes. Um during which hours will this uh

[3:07:53] billboard be lit?

[3:07:55] >> Um as per the settlement agreement, it's

[3:07:57] going to be lit um beginning at 5:00

[3:08:00] a.m. and ending at midnight.

[3:08:02] >> Ending at midnight.

[3:08:05] >> Okay. And uh before you testify that

[3:08:09] you're taking all the measures you can

[3:08:10] to um follow Dark Sky guidance, it has a

[3:08:13] bunch of mitigating concerns. One of the

[3:08:15] mitigating concerns I read from them is

[3:08:17] to have it off um entirely uh one hour

[3:08:20] before sunrise and um let's see what

[3:08:23] else they say.

[3:08:25] >> Yeah. until basically dust till till

[3:08:28] dawn. And then the um or or the town

[3:08:31] zone or the burough zone ordinance is I

[3:08:34] believe from 11:00 p.m. to 7 a.m. And so

[3:08:37] would you consider a condition to um

[3:08:41] comply with dark skies one hour before

[3:08:44] sunrise instead of the 12 to 5?

[3:08:47] >> So the the short answer is is that we're

[3:08:50] here as a this is not a fresh hearing

[3:08:52] where we are proposing a new use out of

[3:08:54] the blue. We are here as part of a

[3:08:56] settlement negotiation for the pending

[3:08:58] litigation. This was negotiated at

[3:09:01] length

[3:09:03] with the board through Kevin and this is

[3:09:06] where both parties came to and agreed

[3:09:07] to. And just to correct you if I may, I

[3:09:10] don't believe that the timing that you

[3:09:12] referenced is a mitigating factor, a

[3:09:14] generally accepted principle. I think

[3:09:16] instead that was one of the

[3:09:17] recommendations that again are not real

[3:09:19] regulations. They're just

[3:09:20] recommendations. So, right now the

[3:09:24] application is for as was a

[3:09:27] conditionally agreed to before we came

[3:09:29] here, which is midnight to 5:00 a.m. it

[3:09:32] will be off.

[3:09:33] >> Okay. So, it's it's fair to say that it

[3:09:36] being lit at midnight and at 5:00 a.m.

[3:09:39] >> won't be lit at midnight. It'll be off

[3:09:40] at midnight.

[3:09:41] >> 11:59 we'll call it. Um is would not be

[3:09:46] uh following Dark Sky recommendations.

[3:09:48] Right. Again,

[3:09:50] that one recommendation would not be

[3:09:52] followed.

[3:09:53] >> I wouldn't say generally we're not

[3:09:55] following the recommendations.

[3:09:57] >> Okay.

[3:09:57] >> But again, we never

[3:10:00] I I'll just state it again for the

[3:10:01] record. We never said we were dark sky

[3:10:03] compliant. And we also recognized that

[3:10:06] the bureau has not adopted dark sky as a

[3:10:09] requirement, which is very diff which is

[3:10:11] very different than recommending it in a

[3:10:12] master plan and it never materializing

[3:10:14] into an ordinance. And just for the

[3:10:16] record, I think, and I'm going back

[3:10:21] eight, nine months, so I I might be

[3:10:23] wrong, but I think in round one when we

[3:10:26] were talking about 187, Shauna, there

[3:10:29] was definitely a condition of I think a

[3:10:31] longer time frame when it would be shut

[3:10:34] off. And I think we had attempted in our

[3:10:38] negotiations to have a similar time

[3:10:41] frame on this. And as I recall, um, that

[3:10:46] was not part of the, uh, settlement

[3:10:48] agreement at first. And I think we, as I

[3:10:51] recall, we pushed and countered, and then it came

[3:10:55] up with this

[3:10:58] medium proposal, so to speak. That's my

[3:11:00] recollection.

[3:11:01] >> Right. Originally, as part of the

[3:11:02] proposal, we weren't suggesting to turn

[3:11:03] it off at all because again, it's in

[3:11:05] your business district and it's exactly

[3:11:08] where these types of signs should be if

[3:11:10] they were to be anywhere. Um, and yes,

[3:11:13] it was a concession, a mutual concession

[3:11:15] between the board and uh the applicant

[3:11:18] with the five.

[3:11:19] >> I think there was, again, I don't want

[3:11:22] to I mean, everything's on on the table,

[3:11:24] so to speak, but I think there was a

[3:11:27] bigger concern with the 187 because of

[3:11:30] the residential development at

[3:11:33] >> directly across the street. And again,

[3:11:35] Kevin, as it relates to everything on

[3:11:36] the table, I think we talked about

[3:11:38] certainly there can be additional

[3:11:39] conditions imposed, but the settlement

[3:11:41] can't be disregarded as a negotiated

[3:11:43] conditional settlement either that was

[3:11:46] conditionally agreed upon by all of the

[3:11:48] parties. I I think it would be in bad

[3:11:50] faith to now try and renegotiate those.

[3:11:52] >> I I think it was just a question and I

[3:11:54] think it's a fair question and then

[3:11:56] we'll we'll, you know, can discuss in a

[3:11:58] little bit.

[3:12:02] Okay. Any other questions from the

[3:12:03] board?

[3:12:06] >> Yeah. Um, sorry.

[3:12:08] >> Oh, I thought you had your hand up.

[3:12:10] >> I do. I'll wait. I'll wait till you were

[3:12:11] done. I thought that I didn't I wanted

[3:12:13] to make sure the chairman wasn't closing

[3:12:14] everything down.

[3:12:16] >> I was worried about

[3:12:18] >> So, I understand um we we talked a bit

[3:12:20] about glare um in in your testimony and

[3:12:24] uh we do have an ordinance that

[3:12:27] discusses

[3:12:28] glare in distracted driving. I

[3:12:30] understand this is also um part of New

[3:12:33] Jersey Department of Transit and so you would comply with all of their uh

[3:12:38] regulations. I understand that. But um

[3:12:40] our ordinance also involves the uh

[3:12:46] sorry what let me try to find the

[3:12:50] exact language for you because I don't

[3:12:51] want to mess it up. But

[3:12:58] yes, so it says, "No sign shall be

[3:13:01] maintained at any location where by

[3:13:02] reason of its position, sign, shape,

[3:13:04] content, or color, it may be in the

[3:13:06] opinion of the chief of police obstruct,

[3:13:08] impair, obscure, interfere with the view

[3:13:10] of, or be confused for any traffic

[3:13:11] control, sign, signal, or device, etc."

[3:13:14] All that is to just say, have you um

[3:13:17] gotten the opinion of the chief of

[3:13:18] police on your proposal?

[3:13:21] So I believe that

[3:13:24] the application will be submitted to

[3:13:26] outside agencies. I don't know if it's

[3:13:27] the general practice for the board to

[3:13:29] send it out to outside agencies. That

[3:13:31] issue certainly can be something that

[3:13:33] can be done.

[3:13:36] It was sent to him. So he did not have

[3:13:39] any comment apparently.

[3:13:40] >> Okay.

[3:13:44] » And if I could revisit the Vshape again.

[3:13:46] So the um Vshape was for the two

[3:13:48] billboard faces, but the um the circus

[3:13:51] liquor sign is not a Vshape, right?

[3:13:53] Those are correct. That's parallel. It's

[3:13:55] That's right. back to back.

[3:13:58] >> Okay. Any other questions from the

[3:14:00] board?

[3:14:04] » Oh, okay.

[3:14:05] >> Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um going back

[3:14:08] to the crane test. So,

[3:14:11] is this sort of how back in the day uh

[3:14:13] there were balloon tests for the cell

[3:14:15] towers? So, the day of the crane test, I

[3:14:18] mean, let me let me backtrack. Is you

[3:14:20] said there's a flag raise. Is it a big

[3:14:22] fat flag? How does it how does it handle

[3:14:25] wind? I mean, how accurate can we

[3:14:28] >> hung from the crane? So, it's kind of

[3:14:31] like a like a chevron sign that you see

[3:14:34] on the on the roadway with with diagonal

[3:14:36] slashes on it. And it's it's about 10

[3:14:39] feet tall and it's probably about two or

[3:14:42] three feet wide. And they hang that from

[3:14:44] the crane and they place it at the edge

[3:14:47] of the sign that you want to want to I

[3:14:50] guess build off of from an exhibit

[3:14:52] standpoint that you want to judge the

[3:14:54] sign by. You don't want to write middle

[3:14:56] because it's hard to tell exactly where

[3:14:58] that middle is depending on your

[3:15:00] perspective. So in this case it was hung

[3:15:03] at the southern edge of the sign

[3:15:07] at the at the height at the proposed

[3:15:09] height. Um and that way the renderer can

[3:15:13] take those photos and see where that

[3:15:16] edge of sign is and then superimpose the

[3:15:19] image of the render of the of the sign

[3:15:21] there. and also for the the outfront

[3:15:25] team on the day of that test can also

[3:15:28] drive around and say is this the

[3:15:30] appropriate height for this sign? Um

[3:15:33] does it higher? Does it does it be

[3:15:36] lower? Can it be lower? Um so those are

[3:15:38] the kinds of things to look at.

[3:15:41] >> Were you present on the day of the

[3:15:43] >> He's not on this.

[3:15:44] >> Thiago from his firm was were you?

[3:15:47] >> Yeah, Andrew was present. if you have

[3:15:48] any questions about the conditions at

[3:15:50] the time.

[3:15:51] >> Um,

[3:15:53] okay. Uh, so is I mean who is someone so

[3:15:58] is the testimony from this team that

[3:16:00] this is generally speaking what the sign

[3:16:03] will be you know their location is as

[3:16:05] accurate as accurate as possible.

[3:16:07] >> I've witnessed other tests

[3:16:10] um but I know um Mr. Harvey has been at

[3:16:13] numerous tests and is out front. It's

[3:16:17] something they've routinely done um

[3:16:20] previous to crate

[3:16:23] balloon test as well. I think the crane

[3:16:25] test is a lot more exact. You could put

[3:16:27] a ruler on everything that you're

[3:16:28] measuring and be confident as to where

[3:16:30] it is in two dimensions over the site.

[3:16:33] >> Have you ever after the fact after the

[3:16:36] billboard is installed gone back and

[3:16:38] looked at these uh exhibits and compared

[3:16:41] it to what you see out there? or has

[3:16:44] somebody

[3:16:44] >> I personally have not.

[3:16:46] >> So, it's your testimony that this is

[3:16:48] accurate, but you've and they're very

[3:16:50] accurate, but nobody's looked at it.

[3:16:53] >> Well, no.

[3:16:56] >> Dan Dan said he never looked at said

[3:16:58] nobody's ever looked at it. So,

[3:17:00] >> so I'm not usually tied into um that

[3:17:04] aspect. As an engineer, if we were asked

[3:17:06] to confirm the location of the sign,

[3:17:09] we'd send a survey crew out and they

[3:17:11] would physically survey the sign to make

[3:17:13] sure it matched the height, elevation,

[3:17:16] and two-dimensional location that's on

[3:17:18] the plan or if there was any deviation.

[3:17:20] But I wouldn't go out and just look at

[3:17:22] it and come to a conclusion because

[3:17:23] frankly I myself.

[3:17:25] >> Okay. And then

[3:17:28] the photos are all along Newman Spring

[3:17:31] Road. is that because there was no

[3:17:34] concern about the residents then the the closest residents and what that type

[3:17:39] of visual impact might be. So, so again,

[3:17:42] I wasn't there, but I do know that um

[3:17:45] Thiago, my my associate from from

[3:17:47] Dynamic Thiago Dwart, um he did go and

[3:17:51] take a couple pictures from different

[3:17:52] locations that he couldn't see the crane

[3:17:54] from those locations. So, it's hard to

[3:17:56] even say when you go to that location

[3:17:58] where the sign is when you can't see it

[3:18:01] um or where the crane is, but there was

[3:18:03] some exploratory exploring around. and

[3:18:06] you take a look at the agreement um and

[3:18:08] certainly any sign it it we we weren't

[3:18:12] trying to make it an invisible sign. So

[3:18:14] we're not saying that it will be

[3:18:16] invisible from varying locations. What

[3:18:19] we need to demonstrate is that there

[3:18:20] will be no substantial light impact from

[3:18:23] it to those various locations which is

[3:18:26] done visa v the knits as well as the

[3:18:29] foot candles and the fact that it would

[3:18:30] be zero at those locations. So again,

[3:18:34] the the whether or not you can see the

[3:18:37] sign, they can also see the circus sign

[3:18:40] potentially if they could see our sign,

[3:18:42] the current one. There's no obligation

[3:18:44] to make a sign invisible. There's an

[3:18:46] obligation to make sure that there's no

[3:18:48] substantial impact as it relates to the

[3:18:50] lighting.

[3:18:52] >> And I recognize that and I'm not

[3:18:53] suggesting that the sign would be

[3:18:55] visible. I'm saying first of all I want

[3:18:57] to make sure that the of the accuracy of the exhibit and up until

[3:19:04] tonight we didn't have any information

[3:19:06] on how the exhibit was prepared. That's

[3:19:09] the first part.

[3:19:10] >> The crane test photos with you either no

[3:19:12] one of you. I'm happy to share the crane

[3:19:14] test photos with you.

[3:19:16] >> I I

[3:19:17] >> they're the same photos that you see.

[3:19:19] It's just that the crane

[3:19:20] >> the crane instead of the

[3:19:22] >> digitally removed from the photo.

[3:19:25] I would really like to see that. Happy

[3:19:27] to. That would answer a lot of the

[3:19:29] questions, I think, potentially.

[3:19:32] Do

[3:19:32] >> you have any photos of what the sign

[3:19:34] looked like from the baseball field

[3:19:35] that's about 50 yards from there?

[3:19:38] >> I I do not. I do not. We We have these

[3:19:41] that we ran. I know they went to a

[3:19:43] couple of residential neighborhoods to

[3:19:44] look for for evidence, but again, I was

[3:19:47] not there. So,

[3:19:51] » so,

[3:19:53] and I know you weren't there.

[3:19:55] Will the do the photos that are going to

[3:19:58] be provided, do they show anything from

[3:20:01] the residential neighborhoods that you

[3:20:03] can't see the sign or is are there any

[3:20:06] photos from the residential

[3:20:07] neighborhoods or there was

[3:20:10] >> we talked about this and the the the

[3:20:12] problem with doing that is is that if I

[3:20:14] brought a photo from a residential

[3:20:15] neighborhood

[3:20:17] Then the then the question would be,

[3:20:19] well, what about their second floor

[3:20:20] bedroom? And then the question would be,

[3:20:22] what about the house next door? What

[3:20:23] about the house next door to that? We

[3:20:25] can't go into their homes or onto their

[3:20:27] properties. We can only be at the street

[3:20:29] right ofway, which is going to be a very

[3:20:31] different view from where it would be to

[3:20:33] those homes. What we can tell you is is

[3:20:35] that traveling on the right of way, the

[3:20:37] crane was not visible from any vantage

[3:20:40] point that we were at from those

[3:20:42] residential neighborhoods.

[3:20:45] We can't give you a viewpoint from every

[3:20:47] home in every residential neighborhood.

[3:20:50] It it and I know this to be a fact. You

[3:20:53] weren't at the last meeting I was. When

[3:20:55] we did show photos from various

[3:20:57] homeowners property lines, we got

[3:20:59] challenged. Well, what about the one

[3:21:01] next door? What about the one behind it?

[3:21:02] Well, that's not a fair representation.

[3:21:04] So there is no exhibit I can give you

[3:21:07] that will satisfy you that it will not

[3:21:09] be seen from that there will be no

[3:21:11] residential home that it will be seen

[3:21:13] from. What we can offer is is that

[3:21:19] the light from it will not have

[3:21:21] substantial intrusion in any residential

[3:21:24] home.

[3:21:26] But I do think it's important to

[3:21:27] establish that the light there will not

[3:21:29] be substantial intrusion of light to the

[3:21:31] park where it's probably the busiest

[3:21:34] park in Mammoth County quite frankly.

[3:21:36] Yeah.

[3:21:36] >> So when the sporting events are going on

[3:21:38] >> Yeah. I would I would say

[3:21:39] >> confirm that

[3:21:41] our narrow view technology

[3:21:45] » dimensions in three dimensions in in in

[3:21:49] going sides of the stium where we limit

[3:21:52] that's a hard cap.

[3:21:55] They won't be able to see this sign.

[3:21:57] >> They'll see the structure. They won't be

[3:21:58] able to see the message

[3:21:59] >> only within this cone. I was asking

[3:22:03] >> all the way out here

[3:22:06] be able to see the light that's on the

[3:22:08] pan

[3:22:10] cone is what our where our narrowology.

[3:22:23] And then looking south, kind of very

[3:22:24] similar with the neighbors here to the

[3:22:26] south. Laurel Street is all out of that

[3:22:29] cone. Henry Street is all out of that

[3:22:32] cone. I mean, this line projects down

[3:22:35] >> residential property and head street.

[3:22:38] >> Now you're talking like that are

[3:22:40] >> right. Then you're more railroad.

[3:22:43] >> There's trees.

[3:22:43] >> That would my concern is if you could

[3:22:45] see it from the park. And if you're

[3:22:47] saying the cone is where you can see the

[3:22:49] sign, you can't see it from the park.

[3:22:51] >> All right. Well, you can see the

[3:22:52] structure. You just can't see the map.

[3:22:54] >> And also if you look at the picture of

[3:22:56] 500 feet traveling westbound, you look

[3:22:58] at the size of that

[3:22:59] >> 500 feet and you extrapolate around

[3:23:01] that.

[3:23:02] >> Correct.

[3:23:02] >> This thing's going to be about this big.

[3:23:04] >> Correct.

[3:23:06] >> Okay.

[3:23:07] >> Which was the purpose of this?

[3:23:09] >> Any more questions from the board?

[3:23:10] >> Uh yes. So the in the performance

[3:23:14] standards um 10A on on your site design.

[3:23:18] I might have an older copy in front of

[3:23:19] me. I apologize. So, it says that um for

[3:23:25] ordinance 490-54C11,

[3:23:28] uh there shall be no direct or sky

[3:23:29] reflected glare. Um it says it complies

[3:23:32] with the first part of it. Now, the

[3:23:34] second part of it is on intense glare

[3:23:36] and it says it's not applicable. Could

[3:23:39] you speak to why it's not applicable?

[3:23:41] >> Just where are you reading from the plan

[3:23:43] or the

[3:23:44] >> I'm reading from uh

[3:23:46] >> probably your response letter would be

[3:23:48] my guess. No, it would be

[3:23:52] I apologize. I don't have the um it's

[3:23:54] the site plan sheet number three.

[3:23:56] >> Oh, okay. Oh, so so performance

[3:23:59] standards note 10. Sorry, I wasn't

[3:24:01] following as you were. I wasn't

[3:24:02] following it.

[3:24:03] >> It's note 10 and which which one? A or

[3:24:05] B?

[3:24:06] >> A.

[3:24:13] Any operation or activity producing

[3:24:15] intense glare shall be conducted so that

[3:24:18] direct and indirect illumination from

[3:24:20] the source of light shall not cause

[3:24:23] illumination in excess of 0.1 ft candle

[3:24:26] in residential districts. So we probably

[3:24:29] put said NA for that init or no we say complies for that right or no we

[3:24:34] probably put NA for that because it's

[3:24:35] not in a residential district but that

[3:24:38] was part of my testimony anyway that

[3:24:40] >> we comply So

[3:24:44] this is the point 0.0. So just inside of

[3:24:48] this envelope is 0.1

[3:24:52] and there's the the there's not any

[3:24:55] residential district where that's

[3:24:56] distributed to.

[3:24:57] >> Okay.

[3:24:58] >> In either misspelled.

[3:25:00] I apologize that it says NA there.

[3:25:02] Probably misinterpreted that one. Didn't

[3:25:04] we drafted the plans?

[3:25:07] >> Okay,

[3:25:09] last one. Any questions from the board?

[3:25:11] Any questions from the public for this

[3:25:14] witness?

[3:25:16] Okay, we'll close that public portion

[3:25:20] >> and we're done with this guy.

[3:25:24] » Done with him.

[3:25:26] >> Could I would ask that we carry this

[3:25:28] without the need for further notice. I

[3:25:30] do understand that my planner was

[3:25:32] negotiating a date based on her

[3:25:34] availability and that the date may be

[3:25:37] October 1st. So, is that an available

[3:25:40] date?

[3:25:43] Do we do we have anything about in

[3:25:45] September?

[3:25:49] » I I don't Is that the date you were

[3:25:50] asking for, Christine, or no?

[3:25:56] » Okay.

[3:25:58] >> And I know you're thinking about the

[3:25:59] judge wanting this to be handled in an

[3:26:02] expedited manner.

[3:26:04] >> And we don't want to have the situation,

[3:26:05] Mr. Mass, where the judge demands that

[3:26:07] we stay till 2 in the morning and our

[3:26:09] eyes are open. I understand that. But at

[3:26:11] the same time,

[3:26:12] >> I know

[3:26:12] >> after 10:00 and like I said,

[3:26:15] >> and we started at 6,

[3:26:16] >> they're all volunteers and a lot of them

[3:26:19] work work jobs during the day and it's

[3:26:21] been a long day. So,

[3:26:23] >> I'm agreeing with you.

[3:26:25] >> So, October.

[3:26:27] Yeah.

[3:26:29] >> All right. So, uh Jennifer, uh assuming

[3:26:32] that we have a motion, do you consent to

[3:26:34] extend the time frame within which the

[3:26:36] board has to act on this application? of

[3:26:38] course through the meeting following the

[3:26:41] October 1st meeting.

[3:26:42] >> Perfect. So, Mr. Chairman, if it's

[3:26:44] acceptable to the board, we'll have a

[3:26:46] motion to carry this application to

[3:26:49] October 1st, 2026, 6:30 p.m. without the

[3:26:54] need for any further public notice. Um,

[3:26:57] if that we can have a motion of

[3:26:58] >> I will make that motion.

[3:27:02] » And Tori,

[3:27:04] >> yes.

[3:27:04] >> Raymond Mass,

[3:27:05] >> yes. Greg Fitzgerald, yes.

[3:27:08] >> John Gild,

[3:27:09] >> yes.

[3:27:10] >> Vincent Light,

[3:27:11] >> yes.

[3:27:11] >> Paul Kagno,

[3:27:12] >> yes.

[3:27:12] >> Eugene Harowitz,

[3:27:14] >> yes.

[3:27:15] >> Chris Havens,

[3:27:16] >> yes.

[3:27:16] >> Darthy Ceruo.

[3:27:18] >> And Jennifer, just for recordeping

[3:27:20] purposes, I think you know, in the

[3:27:22] absence of extraordinary circumstances,

[3:27:24] you have one witness left.

[3:27:26] >> Yes.

[3:27:28] >> And you're going to send the the photos

[3:27:31] from the crane test also? I

[3:27:32] >> am. Thank you. I'm going to send you the

[3:27:34] naked crane and then I'm going to send

[3:27:37] you the ones with the crane embedded in

[3:27:39] the sign to show that it's perfectly

[3:27:41] lined up in height and southern edge.

[3:27:44] >> I thought it might having the crane in

[3:27:46] it might have been confusing to the

[3:27:47] board, but I'm happy to give it to you

[3:27:48] as backup.

[3:27:49] >> Thank you.

[3:28:09] that we want the applicants to submit

[3:28:11] prior to the hearing. Obviously, the

[3:28:13] crane test pictures.

[3:28:18] If somebody thinks of something, contact

[3:28:21] me. Not reply all. I mean, not copy

[3:28:24] everyone and I I will reach out to Miss

[3:28:25] Primka.

[3:28:26] >> Okay.

[3:28:27] >> To the extent we can do it, we're happy

[3:28:29] to. We we we rocked quite a bit on the

[3:28:31] nets, so we'll try to do better next

[3:28:34] time.

[3:28:34] >> Great. Thank you.

[3:28:35] >> I feel like I need a lice comb for that.

[3:28:38] >> Motion to adjurnn.

[3:28:41] >> Oh,

[3:28:46] » and made the Tory.

[3:28:49] >> Second.

[3:28:52] >> All in favor?

[3:28:54] I

Zoning Board of Adjustment Meeting

Agenda

Transcript