[1:58] And, uh,

[2:04] So, I'm gonna read some typical

[2:06] opening remarks. Please be aware

[2:06] that there are microphones at

[2:08] your desk that will pick up

[2:08] conversations easily.

[2:12] Are we being recorded now? OK,

[2:14] and this is being recorded, um,

[2:16] these mics are connected to the

[2:18] live stream so the public may

[2:19] watch the proceedings.

[2:22] The property tax relief and

[2:24] modernization Working Group

[2:26] meeting is called to order in

[2:28] accordance with House rules,

[2:30] members of the public are able

[2:30] to participate either in person

[2:32] or virtually through Zoom

[2:33] Webinar.

[2:36] The public can participate

[2:38] virtually by registering through

[2:40] the meeting link posted on the

[2:40] General Assembly website.

[2:44] Instructions providing public

[2:46] comment are available on the

[2:48] website under this working

[2:50] group's meeting notice. Written

[2:52] comments may be submitted to

[2:54] Justin Doherty at Delaware.gov.

[2:56] Any comments received within 24

[2:58] hours after the hearing will be

[3:00] included in the public record.

[3:02] Members of the public physically

[3:04] present for the meeting may sign

[3:06] up on the speaker list located

[3:07] by the door of the hearing room.

[3:10] I'd like to begin today's

[3:12] meeting by taking roll call

[3:16] attendance to the members, um

[3:16] uh it's still see it.

[3:18] I don't know if that needs to

[3:19] be.

[3:22] Starting,

[3:24] OK.

[3:26] OK.

[3:30] We're just checking to make sure

[3:30] that that is actually the live

[3:34] stream is actually active. Uh,

[3:36] so we begin by taking roll call,

[3:38] uh, Frank Burns chair here.

[3:42] Send Senator Russ Huxtable,

[3:42] co-chair. I'm here.

[3:46] Representative Mike Smith had a

[3:46] family emergency this morning

[3:48] and emailed that he would not be

[3:49] in attendance.

[3:52] Senator Richardson, Senator

[3:54] Richard Senton.

[3:54] Senator Richardson, Senator

[3:55] Richardson, Senator,

[3:55] Richard Senton.

[3:56] That's, it's correct on the

[3:58] other side. Oh, OK.

[4:00] Good. Uh, 50/50.

[4:00] Senator Richardson, Senator

[4:01] Richard Senton.

[4:01] It's, it's cracked on the other

[4:02] side. Oh, OK.

[4:02] Good. Uh, 50-fifty.

[4:04] OK. So, uh, very good. Gina

[4:06] Jennings, here. Thank you.

[4:08] Susan Durham here.

[4:10] David Del Grande.

[4:14] Uh, Secretary Michael Smith,

[4:16] Secretary of Finance,

[4:18] not Newcastle.

[4:20] We've got a couple typos which

[4:22] we will deal with. Um,

[4:26] Deputy Director Anne Desaire.

[4:27] Deputy Director Anne Desali,

[4:28] Deputy Director Anne Desale,

[4:28] pregnant. All right, thank you.

[4:32] Steve Lucas, who is here, um,

[4:34] Jeff, Jeff Menzer is attending

[4:36] on his behalf. OK, great. Thank

[4:37] you.

[4:44] Uh, Mone Smith.

[4:44] Thank you.

[4:46] It's our own cage.

[4:52] Janelle Cornwall.

[4:54] Cynthia Batty.

[4:54] Yeah.

[5:00] Director Matt Heckles, OK.

[5:04] Jerry Heisler, I know he's not

[5:06] able to attend today. Um,

[5:08] unfortunately, this meeting is

[5:10] scheduled on Yom Kippur.

[5:12] And so he, he is.

[5:16] Unable to attend today. Tom

[5:16] Cook. Yeah.

[5:18] Bob Vacca.

[5:20] Here

[5:20] Thank you.

[5:26] Senator or Secretary Don

[5:28] Clifton. I'm here. Very good.

[5:30] And Sydney Grossnickel.

[5:32] Here.

[5:34] Great, thank you. So we have a

[5:36] quorum in case we actually take

[5:40] any votes on anything today. I

[5:42] don't anticipate we'll be voting

[5:44] on anything today, but, uh,

[5:46] motions can always come up, so

[5:48] it's good to know that we have

[5:48] um.

[5:50] Thanks, I'd like to go around

[5:50] the room now.

[5:52] And if you could just introduce

[5:53] yourself.

[5:54] By name,

[5:56] Title

[5:58] and organization, and whether,

[6:00] and then let us know if you're

[6:04] serving as a designee for uh

[6:04] another member.

[6:06] OK, so I guess we will start.

[6:12] To the right. Well, Frank Burns,

[6:14] State Legislature House. All

[6:16] right, so, uh, Russ Huxville,

[6:16] To the right. Well, Frank Burns

[6:17] State Legislature House. All

[6:18] right, so, uh, Russ Huxtable,

[6:18] state senator for the 6th Senate

[6:19] district in Sussex County.

[6:20] Michael Smith, uh, secretary of

[6:21] Finance, the state of Delaware.

[6:24] I'm Don Clifton. I'm the

[6:26] secretary of the Delaware

[6:26] Department of Agriculture.

[6:30] And I'm Sally. I'm the deputy

[6:32] director of Office of Management

[6:34] and Budget, and I'm Brian

[6:36] Maxwell's designee today.

[6:38] Good morning, Matt Heckles. I'm

[6:39] the director of DSAT.

[6:42] Cynthia Badie, I'm a citizen

[6:44] here representing the taxpayers.

[6:48] Mone Smith, currently president

[6:50] of the Delaware Association of

[6:52] School Business Officials. Thank

[6:54] you. Tom Cook, um, actually

[6:56] former Secretary of Finance and

[6:58] a proud grandfather.

[7:02] Janelle Cornwall, executive

[7:02] Director of the League of Local

[7:04] Governments. Good morning. I'm

[7:06] David Del Grande, uh, Chief

[7:08] Financial Officer in Yassa

[7:08] County.

[7:10] Susan Durham, finance director

[7:11] for Kent Kent.

[7:12] Gina Jennings, finance director

[7:14] and Chief Operating Officer for

[7:14] Sussex County.

[7:18] Senator Brian Richardson, my

[7:20] area is from Bridgeville to

[7:24] Delmore. Very good. And I would

[7:24] also like uh if

[7:28] You, Justin, if you could

[7:28] introduce yourself and

[7:30] on the Justin Docherty,

[7:32] legislative aide of

[7:32] Representative Burns.

[7:36] And I believe Senator Huxtable's

[7:37] aide is online.

[7:40] And I would like you also to.

[7:42] Introduce yourself, giving us

[7:44] the tech support. Uh, uh, I'm

[7:44] Adam.

[7:46] OK,

[7:50] thank you, and I just wanna note

[7:52] as, as he introduced himself,

[7:54] but Senator Heckles is here to

[7:54] uh adjust the the.

[7:56] A roll call.

[7:58] OK.

[8:02] Now just a little bit of uh.

[8:04] Housekeeping,

[8:06] One of the things that I think

[8:10] has worked well in organizations

[8:12] like this. We have a fairly big

[8:14] group. It's not gigantic, but if

[8:16] people want to be recognized

[8:18] online. Uh, they will raise

[8:20] their hand and uh Justin will

[8:24] see that, but in the room, if

[8:24] you want to be recognized,

[8:25] please turn your

[8:28] This up, and then I will try

[8:30] very hard to see who goes up

[8:32] first and make sure that I get

[8:34] to the people in order. I'm sure

[8:36] I'll make some mistakes. Just I

[8:38] will get to everybody

[8:40] eventually. That's um all for

[8:41] that.

[8:46] OK, um, so there's a copy of the

[8:48] House concurrent resolution

[8:50] that's included in the packet

[8:50] that you've got in there.

[8:52] Each of the directness of the

[8:54] resolution has been adopted into

[8:56] modules we will review together

[8:57] throughout our works.

[9:00] Please note that module

[9:02] schedule is not the same order

[9:02] as the language in the

[9:03] resolution.

[9:06] So now,

[9:10] We may have other things that

[9:10] people come up with that are

[9:11] not.

[9:12] On this schedule, these are the

[9:14] things we have to make sure we

[9:15] cover.

[9:18] So we need, because that's what

[9:20] the resolution says I do not

[9:22] wanna go off target.

[9:26] In our discussions, we may add

[9:26] an extra.

[9:28] Meeting we have uh time at the

[9:30] end of our schedule.

[9:32] Um, you know, when our meeting

[9:34] dates are, are scheduled too. So

[9:36] if there's something that comes

[9:37] up that the.

[9:40] Group wants to discuss and

[9:42] agrees to discuss, we can do,

[9:44] that's not a part of the

[9:46] scheduled, uh, discussion

[9:50] topics, we can do so uh when

[9:52] we're getting towards the end of

[9:52] our meetings together.

[9:54] Cause again, it's really

[9:58] important. We have to cover

[9:59] those things that are in the

[9:59] resolution, and I don't want to

[10:00] go down rabbit holes or get

[10:01] sidetracked.

[10:02] OK.

[10:04] Um.

[10:08] So is the schedule amenable to

[10:10] everyone, right? This is.

[10:10] You know, sort of.

[10:14] What seemed reasonable? Is there

[10:16] a discussion around the actual

[10:17] schedule itself?

[10:20] Yes, Cynthia, um, the

[10:22] twenty-eighth, I'm not available

[10:24] on, I'm gonna, oh sorry, of

[10:26] December. I, I'm guessing a lot

[10:26] of people won't be available.

[10:30] That seems like an unreasonable

[10:30] date.

[10:31] OK.

[10:32] Um,

[10:36] So at least I hope you won't be

[10:36] available.

[10:38] So that's, that's a very good

[10:42] point, and I'm gonna, so ask, I

[10:44] guess for a vote on that. We

[10:46] want to strike the December

[10:48] twenty-eighth and then adjust

[10:48] the schedule and move all the

[10:49] rest of them.

[10:52] Um, you know, one back further

[10:53] on the schedule.

[10:54] We do have time. We do have

[10:56] empty dates towards the end.

[11:00] Is that is, so I'll go around,

[11:02] um, so moved. Yes.

[11:02] OK, do you have a son.

[11:06] OK, OK,

[11:08] uh, then let's call the roll.

[11:10] OK, um.

[11:12] Greg Burns, yes, Senator

[11:13] Huxtable.

[11:16] Leonard Richardson, Gina

[11:16] Jennings.

[11:18] Susan Durham.

[11:20] David Del Grande. Yes.

[11:22] Michael Smith,

[11:24] oh

[11:26] he's

[11:26] Secretary Michael Smith. Sorry,

[11:28] I have to specify. OK, um,

[11:30] Deputy Director Anne Vasali,

[11:31] yes.

[11:32] Jeff, who's in for Steve Lucas?

[11:38] Yes. OK. Monet Smith. Yes.

[11:40] Cernca, not here.

[11:42] Uh, Janelle Cornwell. Yes,

[11:44] Cynthia Badding, yes.

[11:46] Director Matt Heckles. Yes,

[11:46] yeah.

[11:48] Uh,

[11:50] Tom Cook, yes.

[11:56] Secretary Don Clifton. Yes,

[11:56] Sydney Grossnipple.

[11:57] Yes.

[12:00] OK, so that passes. So we will

[12:04] strike the December 28th date

[12:06] and move the other uh discussion

[12:08] topics,

[12:08] one meeting date further out.

[12:12] Uh, just for attendance, so Ron

[12:12] Uh, just for attendance, Saron C

[12:13] Uh, just for attendance, Saron

[12:14] Cage just joined, uh, and Saron

[12:16] Cade has just joined online, so

[12:18] I'm here. All right, thank you.

[12:22] So Saran, did you want to vote

[12:24] on that? We were looking to

[12:26] strike the December

[12:28] 28th meeting because many people

[12:30] will not be available and move

[12:31] uh the other meetings.

[12:34] Back one day further in the

[12:34] schedule.

[12:38] That's fine for me. Thank you.

[12:39] Yeah.

[12:40] All right.

[12:48] Very good, so again, you know,

[12:48] it's every other Monday, 10 to

[12:49] 12.

[12:50] Um,

[12:52] I'm glad that that concern came

[12:54] up because it was a very good

[12:54] one.

[13:00] So now I'm gonna go through a, a

[13:02] presentation, you have a copy of

[13:04] the presentation at your uh at

[13:06] the on the table with your

[13:06] packet.

[13:08] So I guess we're gonna do this.

[13:12] With slides? Yes. OK.

[13:16] So, um,

[13:20] We did, we did that so far. So

[13:22] now we're into the module one

[13:24] presentation. Module one just is

[13:28] sort of an update on things that

[13:28] have been done and the working

[13:29] group charge.

[13:30] Um,

[13:36] So it tasks us with examining

[13:36] potential reforms.

[13:38] Delaware's property tax system

[13:42] to provide long-term relief for

[13:44] Delawareans. The resolution

[13:44] directs us to evaluate several

[13:46] policy approaches to property

[13:47] tax relief.

[13:50] Which are organized into

[13:52] individual modules, focused, uh,

[13:54] for focused discussion on each

[13:56] topic. At the conclusion of our

[13:58] work, we will be developing a

[14:00] final report and

[14:02] recommendations, including

[14:04] potential legislative language

[14:06] for consideration by the 154th

[14:08] General Assembly.

[14:10] OK.

[14:12] So we can go through the modules

[14:13] now.

[14:16] We can start module one. This is

[14:18] really, that's today, we're

[14:20] going over what the charge is to

[14:24] the group and legislative

[14:26] action, um, overview of recent

[14:26] legislative actions.

[14:30] Existing property tax relief

[14:32] programs and criteria for

[14:34] evaluating potential property

[14:34] tax relief reforms.

[14:38] So, um, homestead exemptions and

[14:40] owner occupancy relief,

[14:42] reviewing potential statewide

[14:44] and local option homestead

[14:46] exemption models including fixed

[14:48] dollar and percentage-based

[14:52] exemptions, enhanced relief for

[14:54] seniors and policies intended to

[14:56] support long-term owner

[14:58] occupancy and neighborhood

[14:58] stability.

[15:02] Uh, the 3rd module will be

[15:02] circuit breaker and income tax

[15:03] base.

[15:06] Property tax relief, evaluating

[15:08] whether Delaware should

[15:10] establish programs that provide

[15:12] relief when property tax burdens

[15:14] exceed a defined percentage of

[15:16] household income, including

[15:18] consideration of eligibility

[15:20] standards, renter participation,

[15:22] refund structures, and

[15:24] coordination with existing

[15:24] relief programs.

[15:30] Module 4 will be assessment, uh,

[15:32] growth limitations and taxpayer

[15:34] stability mechanisms, setting

[15:36] approaches used in other states

[15:38] to reduce sudden increases in

[15:42] taxable assessed value or annual

[15:44] tax liability including

[15:46] phase-ins, assessment caps,

[15:48] acquisition value systems, and

[15:50] other stabilization measures.

[15:54] OK, uh, module 5, tax deferral

[15:56] and payment flexibility

[15:58] programs, reviewing approaches

[16:00] utilized in other states to

[16:02] allow eligible homeowners,

[16:04] particularly seniors and fixed

[16:05] OK, uh, module 5, tax deferral

[16:05] and payment flexibility

[16:06] programs, reviewing approaches

[16:06] utilized in other states to

[16:07] allow eligible homeowners,

[16:08] particularly seniors and

[16:08] fixed-income residents to defer,

[16:09] phase, or otherwise structure

[16:10] property tax payments while

[16:14] maintaining local revenue

[16:14] stability.

[16:18] And module 6, property

[16:20] reclassification and

[16:20] differential tax treatment,

[16:22] assessing whether Delaware

[16:24] should consider to allow

[16:26] differentiating tax treatment

[16:28] among residential, commercial,

[16:30] industrial, agricultural,

[16:32] rentals, seasonal, vacation, and

[16:34] other categories of property for

[16:38] assessment or taxation purposes,

[16:40] including the potential impacts

[16:42] on tax equity, housing,

[16:44] affordability, economic

[16:44] competitiveness.

[16:46] And local revenues.

[16:48] Module 7.

[16:52] School tax equity and local

[16:54] government fiscal stability

[16:56] analyzing how potential tax

[16:58] relief measures could affect

[17:00] school district funding,

[17:02] referendum requirements,

[17:04] municipal and county revenues,

[17:06] and constitutional standards

[17:06] relating to uniform taxation.

[17:08] Bye.

[17:12] Housing affordability, uh,

[17:14] module, housing affordability

[17:16] and economic impact, considering

[17:18] the broader effects of property

[17:20] taxation on housing

[17:20] affordability.

[17:24] Senior retention, renters, small

[17:26] businesses, neighborhood

[17:28] stability, and statewide

[17:28] economic competitiveness.

[17:30] Module 9.

[17:32] Administrative and data

[17:33] requirements.

[17:36] Identifying the staffing,

[17:38] technology, implementation

[17:40] timelines for fraud prevention

[17:42] strategies and data

[17:44] infrastructure necessary to

[17:46] administer potential

[17:48] modernization and relief

[17:48] programs effectively.

[17:50] Module 10.

[17:54] Uniformity, statewide standards,

[17:54] and local options.

[17:58] The working group shall consider

[18:00] both statewide standards and

[18:00] local option frameworks,

[18:02] recognizing the differing

[18:04] economic conditions and fiscal

[18:06] structures of Newcastle, Kent,

[18:08] and Sussex counties, and

[18:10] Delaware's municipal

[18:12] municipalities and school

[18:12] districts.

[18:16] Module 11, the working group,

[18:18] it's discussion and development

[18:19] of final recommendations.

[18:22] The working group shall produce

[18:24] findings and recommendations,

[18:26] including draft legislative

[18:26] language where appropriate.

[18:30] For consideration by the 154th

[18:30] General Assembly.

[18:32] Within 6 months of its

[18:32] convening.

[18:36] So right now we're scheduled.

[18:38] We have dates set aside to go

[18:40] through, uh, I think March 22nd

[18:44] and uh you know, we can go a

[18:46] little bit further in there, but

[18:48] we do wanna have recommendations

[18:50] to go forward in time for them

[18:54] to be considered in this leg of

[18:56] the legislature, so we can't,

[18:58] you know, we can't have

[18:58] something coming out.

[19:00] being suggested in

[19:02] Mid April or later, it just

[19:04] things get backed up at the end

[19:06] of session. So realistically,

[19:08] um, we wanna make sure we have

[19:10] these things and our

[19:12] recommendations and with enough

[19:12] time.

[19:14] And I think I can speak for

[19:16] Senator Richardson and Senator

[19:18] Huxtable as well. Things get

[19:18] jammed up at the end of the

[19:20] session. This is an important

[19:22] thing. We don't want this to be,

[19:24] uh, you know, end of session

[19:26] rush to try to get it through.

[19:26] OK, um.

[19:30] So we went over the proposed

[19:31] schedule.

[19:34] I guess we are now out to

[19:36] February 22nd, we've, since

[19:38] we've shifted things down and

[19:38] dropped the December

[19:40] twenty-eighth date, so it'd be

[19:42] great if we can be done by the

[19:43] end of.

[19:46] February, if we have to go into

[19:48] March, we can. Uh, I want to

[19:49] make sure,

[19:50] you know, we.

[19:50] This

[19:54] I would like us to be able to

[19:56] come to consensus on some

[19:58] things. I don't know that that's

[20:00] possible, but I'm hopeful that,

[20:02] you know, it's, it's gonna be.

[20:06] Um, so when we go to

[20:06] recommendations, I think I'll

[20:07] start now.

[20:10] What is it that we want to have

[20:11] as the threshold?

[20:14] For putting a recommendation

[20:14] forward.

[20:18] Um, you know, as a group, do we

[20:19] want it to be.

[20:22] Simple majority we want it to

[20:22] be.

[20:26] 75%, you know, what is it,

[20:28] Because we're making very

[20:30] serious recommendations here.

[20:32] And I don't, this is up to the

[20:32] group, like.

[20:34] Does anyone want to make a

[20:36] motion that that we uh set a

[20:38] particular threshold before

[20:44] advancing recommendations uh to

[20:44] the General Assembly.

[20:46] Mhm.

[20:48] Tom Cook.

[20:52] Yes, my experience, sometimes

[20:52] you have

[20:56] ideas that come up that there's

[20:56] a unanimous, you know,

[20:58] everyone's behind it. There's

[21:00] other ones that, you know, maybe

[21:02] there's a different viewpoints.

[21:04] so maybe the, the

[21:04] recommendations could be broken

[21:08] down into, these are the list of

[21:08] ones that there was a complete

[21:10] consensus, and these are ones

[21:10] that.

[21:14] Had a, you know, a majority

[21:14] view, it's just an option.

[21:18] OK, but I think complete

[21:20] consensus might be tough. If you

[21:22] want to say like a 2/3 or above,

[21:24] and then, you know, majority but

[21:26] not 2/3 or above, would that be

[21:27] reasonable?

[21:30] So I, there's a motion now to

[21:32] have two tiers of

[21:34] recommendation, one that is um.

[21:36] 2/3 and above and one that's

[21:37] majority.

[21:38] And is there a second?

[21:44] Mm

[21:46] It's two different things. I'll

[21:46] It's two different things. So,

[21:48] I'll second the motion. I have a

[21:49] question on the motion.

[21:50] Oh, ask away.

[21:52] Well, the first you have to

[21:54] approve the motion. OK, so it's

[21:56] been seconded. The motion is

[21:58] seconded and before the group.

[21:58] Sorry.

[22:00] So just to clarify the

[22:02] definition of majority to be a

[22:04] majority of all the

[22:06] Appointees or designees, not

[22:07] those present.

[22:10] I just want to clarify that and

[22:12] then there'll be two categories

[22:14] a 2/3 and above and a majority

[22:16] and above, yeah, I second that

[22:18] question. OK, so they had a

[22:20] total all members, not members

[22:22] present. Correct, OK,

[22:26] for their designs, their

[22:26] designs.

[22:30] Yes, Cynthia Baer, baby. Would

[22:32] that be we would make that

[22:36] segregation per issue and decide

[22:36] it would be per recommendation

[22:38] per recommendation, all right,

[22:40] because I, as, as the taxpayer

[22:42] advocate and still trying to

[22:44] understand my role. Um, I just

[22:45] wanna make sure.

[22:46] As the advocate that, that.

[22:50] And the only one I know of on

[22:52] this group, although we all

[22:54] advocate for ourselves, um, that

[22:54] it's not overwhelmed in.

[22:58] You know, giant majorities,

[22:58] that's my only concern.

[23:02] OK.

[23:06] So can we have a vote on any

[23:06] other discussion on the motion?

[23:10] OK, can we have a vote?

[23:12] Frank Burns, yes.

[23:16] Uh yes. Yes, Michael Smith, John

[23:17] Clifton, yes.

[23:18] And Vali.

[23:22] Yes.

[23:28] Oh, sorry, yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

[23:30] Yes. Yes. Yes.

[23:30] Yes.

[23:32] And to the people online.

[23:36] Jeff Mezer, yes.

[23:40] Yes.

[23:42] Bob Vaca, yes.

[23:50] Cron Cade, yes.

[23:58] OK.

[24:00] Um,

[24:04] Sounds good. I'm happy that

[24:06] that's because it's always good

[24:08] to know in advance what the

[24:08] thresholds are, because we will

[24:09] have discussions.

[24:12] I say I'm hoping we can come to

[24:14] complete consensus on things,

[24:16] but that might not be possible

[24:16] and to know in advance, sort of.

[24:18] Because at the end of this, we

[24:19] were.

[24:20] You know, where we already knew

[24:22] there were contentious issues

[24:24] and we try to set thresholds,

[24:26] that would be problematic in my

[24:26] viewpoint, so.

[24:28] OK, um,

[24:30] Oh.

[24:38] So are there any additional

[24:38] sorry yeah.

[24:40] That

[24:42] It's

[24:42] He's picture,

[24:42] so.

[24:44] We're going to go an overview of

[24:46] recent legislative actions.

[24:48] So we can go through a timeline.

[24:50] Things um.

[24:56] In 2024 and 2025, 1st statewide

[24:58] reassessment in over 40 years

[24:58] was done.

[25:00] It led to significant hardship

[25:02] for some property owners as

[25:04] years of market changers were

[25:04] absorbed all at once.

[25:08] I would like to, and, and it's

[25:10] pointed out here in New Castle

[25:12] County, a dramatic decrease in

[25:14] the relative value of commercial

[25:16] properties led to a significant

[25:18] increase in residential property

[25:18] owner's share of the tax burden.

[25:22] So this, um, there are a couple

[25:23] of school districts.

[25:24] Especially up in New Castle

[25:25] County.

[25:28] that have big segments of

[25:32] downtown Wilmington, um, as part

[25:32] of their tax base, a lot of

[25:34] those properties were commercial

[25:35] office buildings.

[25:38] That the value of office space

[25:40] since pandemic dropped

[25:42] precipitously, so all of a

[25:44] sudden a lot of the tax base had

[25:46] disappeared, and then the

[25:48] With the single rate, it all

[25:49] fell on the homeowners.

[25:52] And it was such that um.

[25:54] You know, we were talking about.

[25:56] Uh, you know.

[26:00] Doubling people's taxes, taxes

[26:02] going up by thousands of dollars

[26:04] for modest homes, um.

[26:06] And this, it just wasn't

[26:08] tenable. We had a lot of

[26:08] especially.

[26:10] You know, if you're paying it

[26:10] off through your mortgage, it's

[26:12] one thing you don't see it.

[26:14] But we had a lot of elderly

[26:18] individuals who have paid off

[26:20] their mortgage, who paid their

[26:22] tax bill all at once, and they

[26:24] usually have set aside what they

[26:26] anticipate their tax bill will

[26:28] be and they were, it was an

[26:28] extremely precarious situation.

[26:32] So then in August, the special

[26:33] session was called.

[26:36] And legislation was passed to

[26:36] address immediate relief for

[26:38] residential property owners.

[26:42] It included efforts to split tax

[26:43] rates. And again, this is not.

[26:46] I want to point out that the

[26:48] legislature didn't split any tax

[26:50] rates to allowed the school

[26:52] districts to, if they felt they

[26:52] needed to, so.

[26:56] Even though the enabling

[26:56] legislation was passed by the

[26:58] legislature. The decision to

[27:00] split rates or not split rates

[27:02] were made by the individual

[27:04] school districts, and many did

[27:06] not split their rates. So that's

[27:08] something to keep in mind. I

[27:09] think uh.

[27:10] Oh.

[27:12] Well,

[27:14] yeah, I think that's something

[27:16] to really keep in mind when

[27:16] we're trying to address the

[27:17] issues.

[27:20] Thank you, Rippers. I think

[27:20] there was one thing you said,

[27:22] and, and I just wanna make sure

[27:22] cause I.

[27:26] I don't think you meant to say

[27:26] this, but you mentioned that you

[27:28] believed it was, it was the

[27:30] single rate that caused the

[27:32] issue, and I don't think it was

[27:32] a single rape that caused the

[27:36] issue. I think it was the the

[27:36] valuation of the commercial

[27:38] property that caused the issue.

[27:40] Not the simple thing, yeah.

[27:42] I didn't think I said the single

[27:44] rate had caused the issue, but

[27:46] that's, I didn't mean to, um,

[27:47] the property owners.

[27:50] We're in a bind and the

[27:52] Giving the school boards the

[27:54] flexibility to split the tax

[27:56] rates was.

[27:58] The immediate solution that was

[28:00] proffered at the time. As we

[28:02] discuss all these other things

[28:04] that we're gonna be discussing,

[28:06] None of them will be easy, and

[28:06] you'll see why.

[28:08] Um, in a short time frame, I

[28:10] think those things can be done.

[28:14] Someone online had their hand up

[28:16] who wanted to speak. Yeah, this

[28:16] is uh Saron Cade up here in

[28:18] Wilmington. I just wanted to

[28:20] point out, um, uh, some, some of

[28:22] our issues were related to

[28:24] commercial properties, but I

[28:26] don't wanna take the eye our eye

[28:28] off the ball on the reality that

[28:30] um the way that mass appraisals

[28:34] are done, um, make it very

[28:36] difficult to do, to do them

[28:38] accurately in urban areas.

[28:42] Where you don't necessarily have

[28:44] a homogeneous housing stock, um,

[28:46] that you can utilize. So, while

[28:48] I know for some of the public

[28:50] it's, it's easy just to say the

[28:52] commercial properties were rated

[28:54] higher and the residentials took

[28:54] the burden. It's much deeper

[28:58] than that in um urban

[29:00] environments and um uh and is

[29:02] related to the idea that, you

[29:04] know, for the city of

[29:06] Wilmington, the only uh uh

[29:08] measure that was really utilized

[29:09] was

[29:12] Cals, which in an environment

[29:14] like Wilmington where you get a

[29:16] lot of house flips, um, it can

[29:18] skew the, the value of

[29:20] surrounding properties to the

[29:22] value of the sale versus the

[29:26] reality of what those properties

[29:28] are if you don't have other

[29:30] measures to determine, uh, uh,

[29:31] the value of those properties

[29:32] internally and externally

[29:34] through appraisals or other

[29:38] means. So, while, while I know

[29:38] that the commercial piece.

[29:42] was very big throughout the

[29:44] county. Wilmington's was much

[29:46] deeper than just that, and so I

[29:46] wanna make sure that we hit on

[29:50] those things as we get into this

[29:52] topic and, and, um, don't leave

[29:54] it to just the bifurcated rates.

[29:56] OK, but I do want to point out

[29:58] there is another working group

[29:58] that's already actually started

[30:00] that is actually looking at all

[30:02] of those issues. That's being

[30:04] headed up by Representative

[30:08] Cromer, and they're looking at

[30:08] basically how do you get these

[30:09] assessments right?

[30:12] And the issues that went wrong.

[30:16] So, although I, I agree that if

[30:16] I made it, if I made it too

[30:20] simplistic in my explanation of

[30:21] all that went wrong, um.

[30:24] I am sort of trying to not make

[30:26] this meeting last till midnight,

[30:28] so I got you, I got you. So I,

[30:30] but I, I understand that and

[30:32] thank you for bringing that up

[30:32] because there were a lot of

[30:34] issues, um.

[30:36] About the, the, uh.

[30:38] Technical.

[30:40] Reliability of the reassessment.

[30:44] And you know, those that is

[30:44] actually being handled by a

[30:45] different group.

[30:50] So, um, I'm hopeful that they

[30:52] will come to the conclusions and

[30:52] come forward with things that.

[30:54] Will prevent that from happening

[30:55] in the future.

[31:00] OK, so August 12th, this special

[31:02] session was called and

[31:04] legislation was passed to

[31:04] address immediate relief for

[31:08] residential property owners, um,

[31:10] allowing the split rates for the

[31:12] school districts and counties to

[31:12] charge higher tax rates on

[31:14] non-residential properties.

[31:18] Fall 2025 Special reassessment

[31:19] Committee was formed.

[31:22] Tasked with investigating the

[31:24] statewide property reassessment

[31:24] and providing a full and

[31:26] transparent accounting of the

[31:28] reassessment process and to

[31:30] recommend legislation that could

[31:32] improve the process and provide

[31:33] fairness to all taxpayers.

[31:36] Uh, there, that out of that came

[31:38] 8 additional pieces of

[31:38] legislation.

[31:40] Um.

[31:42] And

[31:44] Uh,

[31:46] Part of that is the resolution

[31:48] that created this group.

[31:54] So and it's a split rate uh

[31:56] litigation, the split rate was

[31:56] challenged by a coalition of

[31:58] landlords and commercial

[32:00] property owners, arguing that

[32:02] the authority given to school

[32:04] districts to establish what

[32:06] rates was unconstitutional and

[32:08] resulted in a misplaced tax

[32:08] burden.

[32:12] Chancery Court ultimately upheld

[32:12] the split rates established

[32:14] under HB 242.

[32:20] In November 13th of 2025, the

[32:20] second special session was

[32:22] called. Due to the litigation,

[32:24] revised tax bills were

[32:26] significantly delayed and

[32:28] additional legislation was

[32:30] passed to extend the deadline

[32:30] for the payment of property

[32:31] taxes.

[32:34] Then in the 2026 regular

[32:38] session, additional legislation

[32:40] drafted by the Joint Special

[32:40] Reassessment Committee was

[32:42] drafted and considered by the

[32:44] General Assembly during this

[32:44] year's session.

[32:46] Uh,

[32:54] So then there's a nice picture

[32:56] of the general assembly.

[32:58] Meeting room with no one in it.

[33:00] OK, um.

[33:06] So the regular session, there

[33:10] was SB 228 um and SB 230, I'm

[33:12] sorry, SB 228. Pardon me, you

[33:13] skipped the page.

[33:18] So specialist, I'm sorry.

[33:22] So a special session, um.

[33:26] In August 2025 allowed New

[33:28] Castle County to modify the

[33:30] school property tax exemption

[33:30] amount.

[33:32] Uh,

[33:34] HB 240 required counties to

[33:36] issue refunds for overpayments

[33:38] of $50 or more.

[33:40] All other overpayments credited

[33:42] to future tax bills?

[33:46] HB 241 requires counties to

[33:46] offer payment plans for school

[33:48] and county taxes for an increase

[33:50] of $300 or more.

[33:52] HV 242.

[33:56] It's always nice when there's

[33:58] construction going on. HV 242

[34:00] allow Newcastle County,

[34:02] Newcastle school districts to

[34:04] reset tax rates and create and

[34:08] create split rates and extended

[34:08] payment due date to 11-30-25.

[34:12] Uh, Senate substitute one for

[34:16] Senate Bill 202 requires New

[34:16] Castle County to prepare and

[34:18] submit quarterly reports on

[34:20] utilization of payment plans,

[34:24] reassessment appeals, and taxes

[34:24] collected and distributed.

[34:28] Senate bills 203 and 204

[34:30] codifies the authority of

[34:32] counties and municipalities to

[34:34] tax property with different

[34:34] rates for different

[34:36] classifications.

[34:38] And special session, November of

[34:42] 2025 for Senate Bill 20206

[34:46] extended property tax payment

[34:48] deadlines to December 31, 2025

[34:52] for the 2025, 2026 tax year.

[34:54] OK.

[34:58] The regular session in January

[35:00] through June of 2026.

[35:02] There was Senate Bill 228.

[35:06] Granted authority to New Castle

[35:08] County to review and correct

[35:08] evaluation errors of

[35:10] non-residential tax parsons.

[35:12] And I think probably the one

[35:13] that.

[35:16] Got the most attention was the

[35:16] Amazon warehouse.

[35:18] It had initially been assessed

[35:19] that.

[35:22] About $100 million on

[35:24] reassessment. Its assessment

[35:26] went up to $300 million.

[35:28] That added millions of dollars

[35:30] to the back on the tax rolls,

[35:32] Um, but there's also appeals

[35:34] that have been going on. So

[35:36] there's been a lot of ups and

[35:36] downs, sort of trying to figure

[35:38] out exactly what the tax base

[35:39] is.

[35:42] HB 461 gave special authority to

[35:44] school districts in New Castle

[35:46] County to reset their tax rate

[35:50] for the 2026, 2027 tax year to

[35:52] account for, for these

[35:52] continuing adjustments.

[35:56] OK, because as the appeals have

[35:58] been going on and as these

[36:00] reassessments of commercial

[36:00] properties have been happening.

[36:02] The school districts are having

[36:04] changes to what their tax base

[36:06] is, so they, in order to be able

[36:07] to.

[36:08] Get the revenue they expect,

[36:10] they may have to adjust the

[36:12] rates and this gave them that

[36:14] ability. SV 230 granted subpoena

[36:16] power to all three counties to

[36:18] sufficiently access testimony

[36:20] evidence used to determine the

[36:22] fair market value of real

[36:22] property.

[36:26] HP 462 allows non-vocational

[36:28] school districts in New Castle

[36:28] County to continue setting split

[36:29] rates.

[36:34] HV 460 expanded permit data

[36:36] sharing requirements in New

[36:38] Castle County to prepare for the

[36:38] next reassessment.

[36:42] Um, I would say that's was

[36:44] partly in response to what Sarah

[36:45] Cade

[36:48] pointed out that there was not a

[36:48] good communication to the.

[36:50] Uh,

[36:56] Assessors and the county of

[36:56] which properties had had

[37:00] renovations done because the

[37:00] permit data was not forwarded,

[37:02] so it wasn't uh.

[37:04] I think there was a fall through

[37:06] in the sharing of data which

[37:08] also led to part of the problem

[37:10] with float towels is not being

[37:11] recognized that they had been

[37:11] flipped.

[37:14] And basically the flip tiles

[37:16] haven't been sold on a block at

[37:18] much higher, it had much higher

[37:18] value than the rest of the

[37:20] residences on the block.

[37:26] OK, um, SB 322 repeals school

[37:28] districts' ability to increase

[37:30] tax rates by up to 10% after a

[37:30] general reassessment.

[37:36] HCR 150 establishes the Property

[37:38] assessment Working Group NHCR

[37:42] 151 establishes the property tax

[37:42] relief and Modernization Working

[37:46] Group, which is us, so the, the

[37:48] technicalities of how the

[37:48] assessment is done is being

[37:50] handled by the other working

[37:52] group established under HCR 150.

[37:54] Yeah.

[38:00] We have pending legislation.

[38:02] but it's, it's not actually

[38:04] pending anymore, right, because.

[38:06] These were things that died on

[38:08] the vine when you have an

[38:10] election and a new legislature

[38:14] seated, all legislation is gone,

[38:14] it has to be reintroduced, but

[38:16] this, we'll go over the

[38:18] legislation that was in the

[38:18] pipeline at the end of the

[38:19] session.

[38:22] HV 72 changes the residency

[38:23] requirement.

[38:26] For seniors from 10 years to 3

[38:28] years as it was prior to 2017.

[38:32] That was in Appropriations

[38:32] Committee. I don't think it got

[38:33] out of committee.

[38:38] HB 73 raises senior property tax

[38:40] credit cap from $500 to $1000.

[38:42] That was in appropriations.

[38:46] HB 349 modifies the eligibility

[38:50] standard from 100% disability to

[38:52] 80% disability or greater for

[38:54] veterans to qualify for credit

[38:56] against school taxation on

[38:56] qualified property.

[38:58] That was also an appropriations.

[39:02] SB 149 creates a consistent

[39:04] process for counties and

[39:06] municipalities to exempt

[39:08] low income housing tax credit

[39:10] properties from property and

[39:12] school district taxes and that's

[39:14] uh that was on the Senate ready

[39:16] list, um.

[39:18] So it got through committee in

[39:18] the Senate, but did not.

[39:22] Get a vote in the Senate and

[39:24] comes to the House. SB 350

[39:26] creates a statewide system for

[39:28] classifying property by use and

[39:28] allows counties and school

[39:30] districts to use differential

[39:32] tax rates for different property

[39:34] types, and that was in the

[39:34] executive committee.

[39:36] Um,

[39:40] So they would need to be

[39:42] reinduced in 2027 for

[39:44] consideration by the assembly,

[39:45] um.

[39:50] Most, I would say, again, as we

[39:52] go through these, you'll see

[39:54] that there aren't easy answers,

[39:54] even though, yes.

[39:56] Um, I, I just wanna go back

[40:00] quickly to um the HCR 150

[40:02] stablishing Property Tax

[40:02] Assessment Working Group. If

[40:04] they're working now, can we be

[40:06] regularly given digital copies

[40:08] of their minutes so we see what

[40:10] they did. There's probably a

[40:10] real easy way to do it. I just

[40:12] don't know what it is, but it'd

[40:13] Um, I, I just wanna go back

[40:13] quickly to um the HCR 150

[40:14] stablishing Property Tax

[40:14] Assessment Working Group. If

[40:15] they're working now, can we be

[40:16] regularly given digital copies

[40:16] of their minutes so we see what

[40:17] they did. There's probably a

[40:18] real easy way to do it. I just

[40:18] don't know what it is, but it

[40:19] would be nice if we all were on

[40:20] the same page with what they

[40:20] were doing. Yeah, and they're

[40:21] looking at uh the technicalities

[40:21] of how the assessment is done.

[40:22] Which is

[40:24] Actually a separate issue from

[40:26] what we're working on, and it is

[40:26] available online, but I'll see

[40:27] if we can get that.

[40:30] That too. Thank you.

[40:34] OK,

[40:36] um, so they'd need to be

[40:38] reintroduced in 2027.

[40:42] OK, if we go then to statewide

[40:44] relief programs. These are

[40:46] programs that are in place now.

[40:48] Um.

[40:50] And so there's a senior school

[40:51] tax credit.

[40:54] Homeowners age 65 and over are

[40:56] eligible for 5.

[40:58] A credit of 50% off their school

[41:02] tax amount up to 500. There's no

[41:04] income requirements. Residents

[41:06] who moved to the state between

[41:08] 2013 and 2017, must have lived

[41:10] in Delaware for at least 3

[41:12] consecutive years, residents who

[41:14] moved to the state after 2018

[41:16] must have lived in Delaware for

[41:18] at least 10 consecutive years.

[41:19] OK.

[41:20] Now,

[41:22] These are very attractive.

[41:26] I mean these types of things,

[41:26] everyone always likes to do

[41:28] things for seniors. It's, yeah,

[41:32] legislators love doing that

[41:32] because, you know, that makes

[41:33] you look.

[41:36] Attractive to seniors and

[41:36] seniors are the most reliable

[41:38] voting block, so people tend to

[41:39] cater to seniors a lot.

[41:42] One of the things I'll point out

[41:43] with this is that.

[41:46] This tax credit is money that

[41:46] comes out of the state budget.

[41:50] To offset money that goes into

[41:51] school district budget.

[41:52] So, um.

[41:56] Yeah, that's something we need

[42:00] to keep in mind that this is not

[42:02] a, uh, school districts have

[42:02] their own elected.

[42:04] Members, school boards.

[42:08] They're responsible for how they

[42:08] do their budgets.

[42:12] And um it it may seem very easy

[42:14] to say the state can just step

[42:14] in and.

[42:16] Pay money, but that means

[42:18] everybody in the state gets

[42:18] burdened with with doing that.

[42:20] So just something to keep in

[42:24] mind, disabled veterans school

[42:26] tax credit, right now it'll,

[42:28] it's available to veterans with

[42:30] a 100% disability rating from

[42:32] the Department of Veteran

[42:32] Affairs.

[42:34] Must have legal domicile in

[42:36] Delaware for the past 3 years.

[42:38] And an individual cannot receive

[42:40] both the disabled veteran and

[42:41] senior tax credits.

[42:46] Then we're going to county by

[42:48] counties, county specific

[42:49] programs.

[42:50] New Castle County relief

[42:51] programs.

[42:56] The over 65 exemption, residents

[42:58] age 65 or older by July 1st of

[43:00] the current tax year may be

[43:02] eligible

[43:06] for up to the $173,000 for up to

[43:10] $173,000 to be subtracted from

[43:12] the total assessed value of

[43:12] their home

[43:14] Must be a resident of Delaware

[43:16] for at least 10 years and have a

[43:18] single or combined income of

[43:22] less than $65,000. So here we

[43:23] see something.

[43:24] It's um

[43:28] targeted both by age and

[43:30] disability exemption in New

[43:30] Castle County, disabled

[43:32] residents are eligible for an

[43:36] exemption of up to $427,000 to

[43:38] be subtracted from the total

[43:40] assessed value of their home.

[43:42] The total amount depended on the

[43:44] extent of the resident's

[43:46] disability and whether their

[43:46] disability is due to prior

[43:48] military service.

[43:52] So for the school for the

[43:52] property tax, you must be a

[43:54] Delaware resident for at least

[43:55] 10 years.

[43:56] And have a single or combined

[44:00] income of less than 65,000 for

[44:02] school tax, you must be a

[44:04] Delaware resident prior to July

[44:06] 1st of the current tax year and

[44:06] have an income of less than.

[44:10] Then $15,000 if you're single or

[44:12] $19,000 for a joint, joint

[44:13] income.

[44:14] Um,

[44:18] Also line of duty death

[44:20] exemption, the surviving spouse

[44:22] of a qualifying individual who

[44:24] dies in the line of duty may be

[44:26] eligible for a property tax

[44:27] exemption for up to 10 years.

[44:30] So

[44:30] the first in that time, the

[44:32] surviving spouse may not

[44:34] remarry, must be the titled

[44:36] owner of the property and must

[44:38] continue living in the home as a

[44:40] primary residence to retain that

[44:41] eligibility.

[44:44] There's some additional

[44:44] exemptions, historic property

[44:45] exemption.

[44:48] Farmland assessment exemption

[44:50] for agricultural property must

[44:52] Generate at least $1000 of

[44:53] income.

[44:56] Uh, and city of Wilmington

[44:56] exemption.

[44:58] Only eligible for newly

[45:00] constructed commercial and

[45:02] manufacturing properties in

[45:04] which site acquisition or

[45:06] construction cost exceeds

[45:06] $50,000.

[45:08] Yeah.

[45:12] Current Kent County relief

[45:13] programs.

[45:16] Over 65 intention.

[45:20] Residents aged 65 or older by

[45:22] May 31st, the current tax year

[45:24] may qualify for a reduction in

[45:24] their taxable assessment,

[45:26] reducing or potentially

[45:28] eliminating their property tax

[45:29] liability.

[45:32] Must be a resident of Delaware

[45:34] for at least 5 years and must

[45:36] live and maintain the property

[45:38] as their primary residence for

[45:40] at least one year and must have

[45:42] an adjusted gross income of less

[45:43] than $18,000.

[45:46] For someone who's single and a

[45:50] joint income of 24,750 combined.

[45:54] Disability exemption, residents

[45:56] who are entirely disabled may

[45:58] qualify for reduction in their

[46:00] taxable assessment, reducing or

[46:02] potentially eliminating the

[46:02] property tax liability.

[46:06] Must be a resident of Delaware

[46:06] for the last 5 years.

[46:08] Must live and maintain the

[46:10] properties of primary residents

[46:12] for at least one year. You must

[46:14] have an adjusted gross income of

[46:14] less than 18,000 if you're

[46:16] single or $24,000 combined.

[46:20] There's additional exemptions.

[46:22] Industry exemptions, select

[46:24] businesses and industries

[46:26] needing specific financial

[46:28] investment and job creation

[46:30] criteria may be eligible for a

[46:32] gradual reduction in county

[46:34] property taxes over 10 years

[46:36] through Kent County Economic

[46:37] Partnership.

[46:40] Um, farmland exemptions,

[46:42] agricultural land excluding

[46:43] improvements.

[46:46] They qualify for tax exemption

[46:48] under the Farmland Assessment

[46:52] Act of 1968. If specific

[46:52] requirements are met and through

[46:54] the Agricultural Lands

[46:54] Preservation Foundation.

[47:00] Uniform military personnel

[47:02] credit, persons who have served

[47:04] in combat zones beginning on or

[47:06] after November 13, 2007, may

[47:08] qualify to receive partial

[47:10] relief from county government

[47:11] property taxes.

[47:18] OK, then we move on to Sussex

[47:19] County.

[47:22] Suss Sussex County relief

[47:22] programs.

[47:26] Over 65 exemption, residents

[47:28] aged 65 or older by June 30th,

[47:30] the current tax year may be

[47:32] eligible for exemption to be

[47:34] applied to taxable assessments

[47:36] up to $229,000 of the assessed

[47:38] value. Must be a full-time

[47:40] resident of Sussex County for

[47:44] the preceding 5 years, must have

[47:46] an income less than $6000 if

[47:48] single for $7500 combined.

[47:50] Mm.

[47:50] I

[47:54] Yes, that is ridiculous. I, I,

[47:55] some of these.

[47:58] Values were probably set many,

[48:02] many years ago and if someone's

[48:03] comment on that, yeah. Well,

[48:04] please note that some of those

[48:06] values do not include Social

[48:08] Security, they only include

[48:08] other income other than Social

[48:10] Security. That's why the values

[48:12] are low. Social Security is

[48:16] excluded. OK, thank you.

[48:16] Um,

[48:20] So Sussex County property tax

[48:22] subsidy, low income residents

[48:24] may be eligible for subsidy to

[48:28] be applied to the 1st 16,000 of

[48:30] taxable assessment for the

[48:32] county portion of their tax bill

[48:32] only.

[48:34] Must be a full-time resident of

[48:36] Sussex County for the preceding

[48:38] 5 years, must have an income of

[48:42] less than $15,800 in single or

[48:46] $20,000 combined. Liquid assets

[48:48] or real estate must be less than

[48:52] $15,000 not including, uh,

[48:52] primary residents.

[48:54] Yeah.

[48:58] So.

[49:02] Yes, Senator Huxtable, thank

[49:04] you, Representative Burns. Is it

[49:06] possible, so I mean, we, as this

[49:08] committee looks on a statewide

[49:10] basis of what potential programs

[49:12] that might be out there on the

[49:14] property tax relief and

[49:16] modernization and and not

[49:18] wanting to like, and, and also

[49:20] working in concert with with the

[49:22] counties and their programs, is

[49:24] it possible to find out roughly

[49:26] how many people may qualify or

[49:28] who are using the current

[49:29] program, so we aren't.

[49:32] Uh, maybe instead of just

[49:34] targeting the same people, you

[49:36] know, we just figure out how we

[49:38] are working together in concert.

[49:40] I, I guess my question is really

[49:40] to.

[49:42] The county representatives

[49:42] current status.

[49:46] Yeah, yeah, there's, if there's,

[49:48] it's a robust program and lots

[49:48] of people are taking advantage

[49:50] of it or if it's not well

[49:52] subscribed because I think

[49:54] that'll help us figure out where

[49:54] where we may need to land.

[49:56] Is that something?

[50:00] I'm going to ask uh the county

[50:00] representatives weigh in if they

[50:02] will. Is that something that you

[50:04] think would be reasonable to ask

[50:06] is try to find out sort of what

[50:08] the level of participation

[50:10] in the various common level

[50:12] relief programs are,

[50:12] uh, Dave Del Grande here, New

[50:14] Castle County,

[50:16] Uh, we can pull data from our

[50:18] last tax bill cycle and see what

[50:20] that information was, if that's.

[50:22] That's

[50:24] Newcastle County can. That would

[50:28] be very helpful, um, so. We can

[50:28] do the same. OK.

[50:30] And Sussex can do the same, but

[50:32] I just want to make it clear,

[50:34] our numbers are very low because

[50:36] our average tax bill in Sussex

[50:38] is $124. So when you look at

[50:40] incomes and why not many people

[50:40] are qualifying is because their

[50:42] taxes are super low, so we're

[50:44] not gonna have much

[50:44] participation, but we can get

[50:45] you that information.

[50:48] But do those, does that also um

[50:52] Extend the school taxes. It does

[50:54] not. It's only county taxes.

[50:54] We're talking about programs,

[50:55] yeah,

[50:56] Extend the school taxes. It does

[50:56] not. It's only county taxes.

[50:57] We're talking about programs

[50:58] yeah

[50:58] But, and are your programs

[50:58] strictly for the county for the

[51:00] county. And it doesn't, not the

[51:02] county. And it doesn't not

[51:02] scoreboard. OK.

[51:03] That's a good that's not true

[51:04] Extend the school taxes. It does

[51:04] not. It's only county taxes.

[51:05] We're talking about programs,

[51:06] yeah.

[51:06] But, and are your programs

[51:06] strictly for the county for the

[51:07] county. And it doesn't not

[51:08] scoreboard. OK. That's a good

[51:08] point that's not true for us,

[51:09] right? So, and I believe in New

[51:10] Castle County.

[51:10] Is it for both or is it

[51:10] specifically counting tax?

[51:12] I will go back and look at that.

[51:16] I'll be 100% certain. I know we

[51:16] kind of bleed over into either

[51:20] side. Let me look. Because when

[51:20] the taxpayer gets their bill.

[51:24] They're not really parsing it to

[51:26] county versus school. So, you

[51:26] know they're looking at what

[51:28] their total tax burden is, so.

[51:28] Um,

[51:32] Pretty good. So we could get

[51:34] Pretty good. So if we could get

[51:34] that information, if you'd be

[51:36] willing to share that maybe um.

[51:40] I don't wanna burden someone

[51:42] with too much to do in terms of

[51:44] before our next meeting, but you

[51:46] know, let's say within 2

[51:46] meetings out.

[51:50] Um, give everyone a month.

[51:52] So I think if that's pretty

[51:54] reasonable, it would be very

[51:55] helpful,

[52:00] Oh, sorry. Yeah, just a quick

[52:00] question, were these, um,

[52:04] exemptions created a long time

[52:04] ago or were they in response to

[52:05] the reevaluation?

[52:08] These, these, I think were all

[52:10] created a long time ago. I've

[52:12] done these for you um.

[52:18] There were some, um, some moves

[52:18] modify some of them.

[52:22] After, so David, do you wanna,

[52:24] yeah, just to add, sir, um, New

[52:26] Castle County's numbers were

[52:26] updated after the reassessment

[52:30] with the income and the assessed

[52:32] value exemptions, but we don't

[52:33] have authority on the school

[52:33] side, so.

[52:34] Yes.

[52:36] Thank you.

[52:40] So

[52:42] I've had some.

[52:46] Pre-prescribed evaluation

[52:46] criteria.

[52:48] Which is probably incomplete.

[52:52] But um I think we need to,

[52:54] whatever we're looking at, we

[52:56] need to look at taxpayer equity

[52:56] and fairness.

[52:58] Ability to pay.

[53:02] And we

[53:04] that should be a consideration

[53:06] and also predictability of

[53:08] property tax bills and amounts.

[53:12] The impacts on housing

[53:12] affordability.

[53:14] Economic impacts on

[53:16] non-residential property owners.

[53:20] Revenue stability for the

[53:22] counties, municipalities, and

[53:22] school districts.

[53:26] Administrative feasibility and

[53:26] implementation.

[53:30] There's a number of things that

[53:32] um I'm sure the county

[53:32] representatives will say there's

[53:34] all sorts of ideas that people

[53:36] can come up with, but actually

[53:38] putting them into practice

[53:40] sometimes it can be very, very

[53:40] difficult.

[53:41] So,

[53:44] Are there additional criteria

[53:46] that members believe we should

[53:50] consider uh as we evaluate

[53:50] potential reforms.

[53:54] They can pop up at later

[53:54] meetings as well.

[53:56] So.

[53:58] So

[54:02] I question here, um, just a

[54:02] couple of questions.

[54:06] Well, maybe first of all, and I

[54:08] think the Department of Finance

[54:10] and, and you know the Office of

[54:12] Management and Budget, could,

[54:14] can you get the, the statistics

[54:14] on um.

[54:16] The dollar value and the number

[54:18] of people that for the seed

[54:19] property taxes.

[54:24] 74,100 homes.

[54:26] $31.6 million.

[54:30] Not, because not everybody gets

[54:31] the full $500.

[54:34] Sometimes it's prorated or

[54:34] sometimes it's less than. That's

[54:36] the most recent numbers across

[54:38] the state, but, uh, as

[54:38] as you mentioned.

[54:42] Chair, it's a, it's not income.

[54:44] testing

[54:44] because

[54:44] testing

[54:46] because there's many Michael

[54:48] Smiths, and sometimes, you know,

[54:50] we have the tax department and

[54:52] then we have the county records,

[54:52] so.

[54:53] Um,

[54:54] So that's something, you know,

[54:56] obviously the committee could

[54:57] So that's something, you know,

[54:57] obviously the committee can

[54:58] consider obviously this whether

[54:59] or not it's something that can

[55:02] be if it could be income or

[55:02] not it's something that can be

[55:03] if it could be income revenues

[55:04] tested, you know, uh, there's

[55:04] always been talk about trying to

[55:06] increase it, and I think that

[55:06] probably at lower income levels,

[55:07] um.

[55:10] It would be nice to have maybe a

[55:10] little more, but the upper

[55:12] levels maybe there's not so much

[55:14] you're in need of it that

[55:14] particular flat fee.

[55:16] I,

[55:18] yes, can you repeat that number

[55:18] again? I'm sorry. It's about

[55:22] 74,100 homes in all three

[55:24] counties, and uh it was just

[55:26] under 32, 31.6 million, last

[55:26] numbers.

[55:27] Thank you.

[55:32] It can be prorated, you know, it

[55:34] can be prorated because I mean

[55:36] it's 50%. It could be capped by

[55:38] the bill or it could be 4

[55:40] siblings own the property and

[55:40] only one qualifies, so you get

[55:42] $125 versus 500 pesa each.

[55:44] You know, that's, that's where I

[55:46] get different amounts and not

[55:46] get $500 depending on the

[55:47] situation.

[55:48] That's

[55:50] Kind of hard to hear you down

[55:51] here.

[55:54] OK, I was just talking to the,

[55:56] the numbers and then also the

[55:58] qualifications. No, not

[55:58] everybody receives a 4 or $500.

[56:00] Depending on circumstances of

[56:04] the 50%, $500 up to 50% of the

[56:04] bill, depending on what their

[56:05] bill is.

[56:08] But also, um, unrelated parties

[56:10] could own property, like 4

[56:10] siblings can own property and 1

[56:12] But also, um, unrelated parties

[56:12] could own property like 4

[56:13] siblings can own a property and

[56:14] 1 could be all living there, one

[56:14] could be qualified, so they get

[56:16] one quarter of the $500 not the

[56:16] full $500 so.

[56:18] There's a little bit of, you

[56:18] know.

[56:20] Coordination there

[56:20] only call

[56:22] Coordination there.

[56:22] The only call,

[56:24] Mr. Chair, it would be helpful

[56:24] too for the, the counties, um,

[56:26] there's the qualifications, but

[56:28] also income definition. I think

[56:30] it's important too. I know, I

[56:32] know, I think Newcastle doesn't

[56:32] probably include Social Security

[56:34] as well. I'm not sure if they

[56:36] include pensioner solution,

[56:36] things like that would be

[56:38] helpful like there's, you know,

[56:38] is there already

[56:40] um a reduction in income.

[56:44] So sometimes the numbers seem

[56:44] lower than they should be

[56:45] because

[56:46] there's already amounts being

[56:50] taken off of federal AGI and

[56:52] reduced down the Delaware AGI

[56:54] that would look, look slow but

[56:54] in reality it's.

[56:55] I hired him.

[56:56] Yeah, is that?

[57:00] Would that be something to add

[57:02] to the homework for the

[57:04] representatives from the

[57:04] counties. Newcastle County can

[57:05] Would that be something to add

[57:06] to the homework for the

[57:06] representatives from the

[57:07] counties. New Castle County can

[57:07] add income qualifications,

[57:08] thresholds. That's not a

[57:08] problem.

[57:09] Yeah

[57:12] For qualifications of

[57:12] exemptions.

[57:16] So can provide the information.

[57:16] OK, thank you.

[57:18] Very good.

[57:22] OK, well, that is, um.

[57:24] I had another follow up

[57:24] question, so,

[57:28] um, make sure the process is

[57:30] still the same, at least back

[57:32] when, when I was there for the

[57:34] statewide relief programs,

[57:38] senior school tax credit. That

[57:40] application is made to the

[57:42] counties by the resident,

[57:44] correct? Still, correct. OK,

[57:44] yes, yeah, um.

[57:48] But once again, that is only for

[57:50] school taxes on, on the state

[57:50] side.

[57:52] Um, and then another question is

[57:56] on your local programs with the

[57:56] income-based uh

[58:00] Qualification, do you have them

[58:02] come in and submit W-2s, or is

[58:04] there any supporting

[58:04] documentation that you asked

[58:05] for?

[58:06] You know,

[58:08] For New Castle County, correct,

[58:09] there are, um.

[58:12] Uh, backup requirements for the

[58:13] for the applications.

[58:14] I believe it's, I believe it's a

[58:16] tax return. I have to go back

[58:18] and check for sure, but I, there

[58:20] is verification steps they have,

[58:22] they have to go through to get

[58:22] qualified.

[58:24] We require the tax return and

[58:26] also they have to apply every

[58:27] year.

[58:30] Have to apply every year for

[58:30] that OK.

[58:32] And we require documentation as

[58:34] well. Do they apply every year

[58:36] too. They don't, yeah, we don't

[58:36] apply every year, so, but we'll

[58:38] do audits going back.

[58:40] Thank you.

[58:44] Well, I'm going to, I'm going to

[58:46] put my own little thing up

[58:46] because one of the things that

[58:47] um

[58:52] Another thing that I think to

[58:54] think about and it came up as,

[58:55] as, um you were talking about.

[58:58] Having to refile and things like

[59:00] that. Some people are not quite

[59:04] as with it as other people. Uh,

[59:06] so what is the burden to

[59:06] actually

[59:08] I think, yeah, but, but.

[59:12] Thank you for the comment.

[59:14] Secretary Clifton, um,

[59:20] You know, what is, what is the

[59:22] Outreach to people.

[59:24] To help them qualify.

[59:26] You know, in terms of.

[59:28] Um,

[59:30] You know, people who may.

[59:32] Be sort of hanging on at home or

[59:33] whatever, but not.

[59:38] Who may need help, because not

[59:40] everyone is, is at the same

[59:40] level of ability to request.

[59:44] Uh, to file forms and apply for

[59:46] things and sometimes what we see

[59:48] is there's a lot more people who

[59:50] would be eligible for a program

[59:52] that are actually receiving it

[59:54] and how, how, how do we go about

[59:56] lessening that burden for

[59:56] people. I'm sorry.

[59:58] We

[1:00:00] For the people that already have

[1:00:02] it, because they have to do it

[1:00:04] every year. We send them an

[1:00:06] application every year. So if

[1:00:06] you've already been established,

[1:00:08] you get it every year sent to

[1:00:08] your home.

[1:00:10] And then we just advertise in

[1:00:12] the paper, same way you do for

[1:00:14] everything in the papers, on

[1:00:16] your website, the outreach like

[1:00:16] that, senior centers.

[1:00:18] For our outreach areas.

[1:00:24] Do, is there any way to find out

[1:00:24] what the

[1:00:26] Actual participation is.

[1:00:28] And compare that to the number

[1:00:29] of people who

[1:00:34] Would be, should are eligible

[1:00:34] versus the number of people that

[1:00:35] apply.

[1:00:36] We have no idea about income.

[1:00:38] People's income, we don't track

[1:00:40] that you'd have nobody tracks

[1:00:41] that we have.

[1:00:46] And for the state senior tax

[1:00:46] credit, is that something where.

[1:00:48] It would be possible to

[1:00:48] determine sort of.

[1:00:50] How many people

[1:00:54] Appear to be eligible versus how

[1:00:56] many people are actually taking

[1:00:56] advantage of the program.

[1:01:00] Uh,

[1:01:00] same challenge when it comes to,

[1:01:02] I can tell you that um this is.

[1:01:06] New information. It was a little

[1:01:08] project that I kind of tried

[1:01:08] because, you know, if I, I, as

[1:01:09] Michael Smith.

[1:01:12] My social number and the parcel

[1:01:13] I live in.

[1:01:16] On my, uh including that that

[1:01:16] address on my tax return and

[1:01:17] applying for.

[1:01:18] A discount,

[1:01:20] a senior discount,

[1:01:22] um, then it would linked to that

[1:01:26] address, so to the extent uh we

[1:01:26] did a project to the extent we

[1:01:28] could find the name that matched

[1:01:30] or at least one person filing

[1:01:32] that and then uh a dress match

[1:01:34] of the all the individuals that

[1:01:36] received the credit, 1/3 were a

[1:01:38] match. So now there's a number

[1:01:40] that don't have to file, right,

[1:01:42] Because if you only have Social

[1:01:42] Security available income, you

[1:01:44] don't have to file a tax return,

[1:01:46] but we're able to with any kind

[1:01:47] of certainty, identify a.

[1:01:52] Approximately 300 or 33% of the

[1:01:52] individuals receiving, but

[1:01:54] that's the only thing, but

[1:01:56] that's just going by hoping that

[1:01:58] um the address, you know, which

[1:02:00] it's, it's, it's a name and

[1:02:00] address match against our

[1:02:02] records versus an actual

[1:02:06] taxpayer ID and that's kind of

[1:02:06] as far as it went, so if you're

[1:02:08] using a different address, a

[1:02:08] care of address, you know, you

[1:02:10] can use different addresses,

[1:02:10] care of address, whatever the

[1:02:12] case may be, uh, so it's not

[1:02:14] really, I what I hope for a

[1:02:16] little bit better match than

[1:02:16] that, uh, and that would

[1:02:17] clearly, you know, indicate.

[1:02:20] OK, well this is a parcel with

[1:02:20] an address matching individuals

[1:02:22] receiving it, we get, we now

[1:02:24] have their income, but that's

[1:02:26] the only link we can, but our

[1:02:28] success rate is about 1/3. OK,

[1:02:30] So I guess what the data and

[1:02:32] ability to access that just

[1:02:34] really doesn't exist right now

[1:02:36] to evaluate these programs in

[1:02:38] terms of their reach to.

[1:02:40] Total potentially eligible

[1:02:42] individuals. They don't track

[1:02:44] birth dates or income.

[1:02:48] OK, that was just, I just, I'm

[1:02:50] always looking out for the

[1:02:50] people who are, you know.

[1:02:54] Living at home, but maybe

[1:02:56] marginally so and maybe uh you

[1:02:58] know, in difficulty in terms of

[1:03:02] filing forms and getting things

[1:03:04] and, you know, jumping through

[1:03:06] the, so I guess I'm looking for

[1:03:08] hoop minimization in terms of

[1:03:09] what people would need to jump

[1:03:12] through to qualify as being one

[1:03:12] of the criteria to look at.

[1:03:16] Is that?

[1:03:20] Yes, just 11 comment, um.

[1:03:24] Depending on websites,

[1:03:26] newspapers, things like that,

[1:03:28] and I know that that is how

[1:03:30] municipalities do things, um,

[1:03:30] cause I live in one and that's

[1:03:34] how they do it. And um for

[1:03:36] regular humans or older humans,

[1:03:38] that is really difficult in

[1:03:42] terms of a, of a way to have

[1:03:44] reliable communication. This

[1:03:46] seems to me this is a, a change

[1:03:46] management problem, it's a

[1:03:48] societal change management

[1:03:52] problem. And so if, if we want

[1:03:52] this to work for people who

[1:03:54] really need it. I think we need

[1:03:56] to think about it a little bit

[1:03:58] differently. So yes, we would do

[1:04:00] all the normal stuff. You know,

[1:04:00] there's nothing more off-putting

[1:04:04] to a person who needs help than

[1:04:04] to be told, didn't you look at

[1:04:06] the website, that, that's

[1:04:08] actually, you know, I, I defy

[1:04:08] anybody to find anything on

[1:04:10] Newcastle City's website,

[1:04:12] including myself, and I've been

[1:04:14] on two commissions. So, um,

[1:04:18] maybe as part of this activity,

[1:04:20] we think about other ways to

[1:04:22] communicate. Senior centers is

[1:04:22] very good, libraries is a

[1:04:26] Really good one. Churches is a

[1:04:27] really good one,

[1:04:30] social groups, I don't know. I

[1:04:30] mean, I did change management

[1:04:32] professionally, uh, as a

[1:04:34] management consultant so I could

[1:04:35] help you come up with some

[1:04:35] thoughts, but

[1:04:38] Talking to real people,

[1:04:40] especially people in trouble who

[1:04:42] need help is a much bigger

[1:04:42] problem than what

[1:04:44] What I think has been done in

[1:04:46] the past, so maybe something we

[1:04:47] could think about.

[1:04:52] Thank you.

[1:04:52] OK.

[1:04:54] Ever um.

[1:04:58] I heard that Delaware has a very

[1:05:02] high foreclosure rate, uh, is

[1:05:02] it, I don't know if this is true

[1:05:06] or not and uh I guess part of

[1:05:06] what we're trying to

[1:05:10] determine is how we can

[1:05:12] Make sure that people can stay

[1:05:14] in their homes, especially

[1:05:18] uh, those who have contributed

[1:05:18] to society for a long time, the

[1:05:22] seniors, uh, especially like

[1:05:26] when a, a spouse dies and then

[1:05:26] the amount of income that's

[1:05:28] coming in, a limited amount of

[1:05:30] income is reduced, how do we

[1:05:32] make sure that there's, uh,

[1:05:34] those people can stay in their

[1:05:36] homes, so, uh, I, I don't know

[1:05:40] that if there's any way that uh

[1:05:40] the foreclosure rate fits.

[1:05:42] Into what we're discussing or

[1:05:43] not, but uh.

[1:05:44] Just thought I'd bring it up.

[1:05:48] I think that's

[1:05:52] A very good point, and I don't

[1:05:54] have any idea.

[1:05:56] I actually don't know whether

[1:05:58] our foreclosure, I've seen

[1:05:58] something in, you know, a

[1:06:00] headline on something about

[1:06:02] foreclosure rates, but I don't

[1:06:04] know that so Secretary Heckles,

[1:06:06] A very good point, and I don't

[1:06:06] have any idea.

[1:06:07] I actually don't know whether

[1:06:07] our foreclosure, I've seen

[1:06:08] something in, you know, a

[1:06:09] headline on something about

[1:06:09] foreclosure rates, but I don't

[1:06:10] know that so Secretary Heckel,

[1:06:11] A very good point, and I don't

[1:06:11] have any idea.

[1:06:12] I actually don't know whether

[1:06:12] our foreclosure, I've seen

[1:06:13] something in, you know, a

[1:06:13] headline on something about

[1:06:14] foreclosure rates, but I don't

[1:06:15] know that so Secretary Heckles,

[1:06:15] who's housing, would know those

[1:06:16] things. I might know. Um, it's

[1:06:17] actually not, um, historically,

[1:06:17] at least, uh, for context, when

[1:06:18] we were in the Great Depression,

[1:06:19] we were a Great Depression,

[1:06:19] Great Recession, financial

[1:06:20] crisis. Uh, we were looking at 7

[1:06:21] or 8000 foreclosures a year.

[1:06:22] year. Uh, at that point in time,

[1:06:24] we were trying to get back to

[1:06:26] our historical average, um, at

[1:06:28] about 2000, um, for the past

[1:06:30] several years, and there's been

[1:06:30] a lot of good products in the

[1:06:34] pandemic that have helped people

[1:06:34] facing foreclosure, but for the

[1:06:36] past several years we've sort of

[1:06:40] creeped up to about 1300 a year,

[1:06:40] which is below sort of what we

[1:06:44] would consider a natural rate of

[1:06:44] foreclosure. So, um,

[1:06:46] I've seen those reports too. I

[1:06:48] think maybe per capita, uh,

[1:06:50] there's some funkiness in the

[1:06:50] numbers when you look at it

[1:06:52] against, you know, other states

[1:06:54] and things like that, um, but

[1:06:56] generally it's not, uh, we're

[1:06:58] not seeing numbers that are uh

[1:06:58] concerning to us on the data

[1:07:02] side. Doesn't mean that any, uh,

[1:07:04] you know, if you're going

[1:07:04] through foreclosure, you don't

[1:07:06] care how many there are in the

[1:07:08] state. So it doesn't, uh,

[1:07:10] diminish your, your, your point.

[1:07:10] I just want to make the, the

[1:07:12] clarification on the data that

[1:07:14] that er we aren't seeing data

[1:07:14] that shows that we have a a

[1:07:15] foreclosure.

[1:07:16] rate that is uh

[1:07:20] Sort of big picture statewide

[1:07:22] policy wise,

[1:07:22] a concern for us at this point.

[1:07:24] So I've got Senator Huxtable and

[1:07:26] Secretary Clifton both want to

[1:07:28] speak, but I, I'm gonna ask if I

[1:07:30] I'm gonna ask you if I can ask

[1:07:30] you a bit of a follow-up

[1:07:32] question on that. Do you have

[1:07:36] Any kind of detailed demographic

[1:07:36] information.

[1:07:38] On the individuals who do get 4

[1:07:39] clubs.

[1:07:44] Because that we may be able to

[1:07:46] identify, as Senator Richardson

[1:07:48] said, you know, are these, if

[1:07:48] there's a big number of elderly

[1:07:50] people that have lost their

[1:07:54] spouse within the last year. We

[1:07:54] don't know that's a possibility,

[1:07:58] but, you know, maybe there's

[1:07:58] some very targeted things we

[1:08:02] need to think about and would it

[1:08:03] be possible to get.

[1:08:04] Demographics like that or is

[1:08:05] that not collected?

[1:08:06] So,

[1:08:12] The data I'm citing comes to us

[1:08:14] from the Department of Justice.

[1:08:16] Uh, they are, uh, involved in

[1:08:18] the foreclosure mediation

[1:08:18] program that was created again

[1:08:22] back in the financial crisis,

[1:08:22] um, and.

[1:08:26] I don't know that they go much

[1:08:28] deeper than county. Um, they

[1:08:30] certainly don't have sort of

[1:08:32] familial uh information about,

[1:08:34] you know, recently lost spouses

[1:08:35] or anything like that. I think

[1:08:35] it, it.

[1:08:38] It's just what comes through the

[1:08:39] court system, um.

[1:08:42] With that, with that foreclosure

[1:08:44] mediation program, you know,

[1:08:44] the, they, they do go through a

[1:08:46] mediation process with the

[1:08:48] lender, um, you know, they have

[1:08:50] access to housing counseling,

[1:08:50] um.

[1:08:54] And again, the, the number of uh

[1:08:56] foreclosure avoidance programs

[1:08:57] that popped up during the, the,

[1:09:00] the pandemic. The the the

[1:09:02] requirements at first, but then,

[1:09:02] you know, I think a lot of

[1:09:04] mortgage servicers have stuck

[1:09:06] with uh a lot of those programs

[1:09:08] to, you know, forbearances and,

[1:09:10] and things like that that have

[1:09:10] kept a lot of people in their

[1:09:12] homes. So when we say, you know,

[1:09:12] there's sort of a natural rate,

[1:09:13] um.

[1:09:16] You know, there, there are a lot

[1:09:16] of reasons that people can go

[1:09:17] through foreclosure.

[1:09:17] OK

[1:09:20] OK, I was just wondering because

[1:09:21] again if

[1:09:22] It would be useful to know that

[1:09:26] if, because there may be some

[1:09:26] crisis that we just don't

[1:09:27] recognize.

[1:09:30] That we can certainly ask the

[1:09:32] Department of Justice what other

[1:09:32] data they may have, um, but I

[1:09:34] don't think that that kind of

[1:09:35] level is gonna be there.

[1:09:36] Would it be

[1:09:38] Well, I can do that. We can.

[1:09:42] We can think about one of the

[1:09:42] recommendations the committee

[1:09:44] might be to ask at the end of

[1:09:46] all this is ask the Department

[1:09:48] of Justice to start collecting

[1:09:49] that kind of information.

[1:09:52] You know, that would be, again,

[1:09:54] we, not everything that we

[1:09:54] recommend coming out of this

[1:09:58] committee needs to be a piece of

[1:10:00] legislation that can be, we, we

[1:10:02] recognize the gap in the

[1:10:02] information we'd like to have to

[1:10:04] come up with really good

[1:10:06] solutions and then trying to

[1:10:08] make sure that that information

[1:10:08] can get obtained.

[1:10:10] So, thank you.

[1:10:16] OK, sorry, Senator Huxtable.

[1:10:16] That's right. So I know we've

[1:10:18] we've concentrated a lot on, on

[1:10:22] some of what the counties offer,

[1:10:24] uh, and I was gonna point to

[1:10:24] Janelle and ask.

[1:10:28] Uh, Janelle, do you know if any

[1:10:30] towns and other municipalities

[1:10:30] may have

[1:10:32] Additional programs that are

[1:10:33] layered on.

[1:10:36] That they are offering and you

[1:10:36] don't need to answer the

[1:10:38] question right now, but if you

[1:10:40] could do a survey. Yeah, I'll,

[1:10:40] I'll have to reach out and ask.

[1:10:42] Some do, I know, and I believe,

[1:10:46] and I believe most do not.

[1:10:48] Secretary Clifton.

[1:10:52] Uh, I see in the resolution

[1:10:53] that, um,

[1:10:56] One of the charges is that um.

[1:10:58] This group

[1:11:02] Shall review and evaluate

[1:11:02] property tax relief and

[1:11:04] stabilization strategies

[1:11:06] utilized in other states,

[1:11:08] including neighboring and peer

[1:11:09] states.

[1:11:10] Um,

[1:11:14] So my first question on that is,

[1:11:16] whose responsibility is that to,

[1:11:20] to collect all that data. Is it

[1:11:20] Justin's? So,

[1:11:22] does that fall to staff? So

[1:11:24] actually we have um.

[1:11:28] There's an organization called

[1:11:28] the Lincoln Institute of Land

[1:11:32] Use Policy, and they are experts

[1:11:34] in this field and they will be

[1:11:36] giving presentations to us

[1:11:38] about these different uh types

[1:11:42] of programs in other states. Um,

[1:11:44] they're, they're, uh, strictly

[1:11:46] nonpartisan, and they, they were

[1:11:48] a little bit afraid of getting

[1:11:48] involved because they didn't

[1:11:49] wanna.

[1:11:52] You know, seem to be.

[1:11:56] Putting forth any physicians. I

[1:11:56] think uh though in terms of

[1:12:00] factual information sharing, um,

[1:12:02] they're quite willing, and I

[1:12:04] think they'll be, I think, uh, I

[1:12:06] think one of the representatives

[1:12:06] on the meeting right now.

[1:12:07] So,

[1:12:08] Very good. Maybe we can ask.

[1:12:12] I, I have a coup couple other

[1:12:13] uh.

[1:12:18] Follow-ups to that too. Um,

[1:12:20] well, I, I'm, I'm aware of that,

[1:12:22] uh, and I don't know what the

[1:12:24] breakdown is, but, uh, some

[1:12:26] states have property tax, some

[1:12:26] don't.

[1:12:28] Some have income tax, some

[1:12:32] don't. But our charge doesn't,

[1:12:34] doesn't extend to the

[1:12:34] fundamental question of

[1:12:36] Which

[1:12:40] Which is the most equitable, uh,

[1:12:44] overall structure, category, uh,

[1:12:44] uh.

[1:12:46] Usage, utilization, etc.

[1:12:50] That that's not, we, we don't

[1:12:52] extend to that, correct? No, and

[1:12:52] I think um

[1:12:56] And also this is the state

[1:12:56] legislative and we don't have a

[1:12:58] state property tax.

[1:13:02] Property tax is all local. We,

[1:13:04] we as the state legislator just

[1:13:06] enable, have enabling

[1:13:08] legislation for things. So, um,

[1:13:10] yeah, yeah.

[1:13:12] Trying to say what should come

[1:13:14] from property tax, what should

[1:13:16] the uh, the thought of the sales

[1:13:16] tax, all that's beyond the scope

[1:13:18] of this,

[1:13:20] this meeting, this group. I have

[1:13:22] a hand raised from Ron Lincoln

[1:13:22] Institute.

[1:13:24] Hopefully Ron can, can we get

[1:13:26] Ron up on the screen and can he

[1:13:28] Hi there.

[1:13:30] Yeah.

[1:13:32] Uh, my name is Ron Rocco, and

[1:13:34] I'm with the uh Lincoln

[1:13:36] Institute of Land Policy, and I,

[1:13:38] I've, I've uh had some uh

[1:13:38] communications with the, uh,

[1:13:42] with the staff and the care uh

[1:13:44] about our participation in this.

[1:13:44] Uh, first of all, we're, we're

[1:13:48] pleased to help out on this. Um,

[1:13:48] in answer to the, uh,

[1:13:50] gentleman's question, yeah, uh,

[1:13:52] our, our whole, um, point in

[1:13:54] this, first of all, just a

[1:13:54] little bit about the Lincoln

[1:13:56] Institute. We are nonpartisan.

[1:13:58] We are a land use planning think

[1:14:00] tank that's in uh based in

[1:14:00] Cambridge.

[1:14:01] Massachusetts,

[1:14:04] Um, we have a particular focus

[1:14:06] on the property tax. So, uh, we

[1:14:10] have lots of good data, policy

[1:14:12] focused reports, uh, and whatnot

[1:14:14] that I think are very relevant

[1:14:16] to the work that you're doing in

[1:14:16] Delaware.

[1:14:20] Um, we have a database called

[1:14:22] Significant Features of the

[1:14:24] Property tax, um, which will

[1:14:26] provide a lot of, I think, data

[1:14:28] on not only what neighboring

[1:14:28] states are doing, but what all

[1:14:30] 50 states are doing in the

[1:14:30] District of Columbia. So we have

[1:14:32] lots of data that we can share

[1:14:34] uh with you and the staff. Uh,

[1:14:36] so our, our whole purpose here

[1:14:38] is really to kind of provide

[1:14:40] some guidance as a subject

[1:14:42] matter expert, um, we can, uh,

[1:14:44] do some presentations on some of

[1:14:46] the uh exemption programs you're

[1:14:47] considering in terms

[1:14:50] Of, uh, you know, do's and

[1:14:50] don'ts, uh, as we see it in

[1:14:52] terms of best practices and, and

[1:14:56] how to best target relief uh to

[1:14:58] the, the folks that um both,

[1:15:00] most needed. So, ah, with that,

[1:15:02] it's just a quick introduction

[1:15:02] to us and uh we're, we're happy

[1:15:06] to be part of the process here.

[1:15:10] OK. So, yes, it's not all on.

[1:15:12] Just to

[1:15:16] do all the background research.

[1:15:18] So, uh, just mostly, yes,

[1:15:20] and I, and I will say this,

[1:15:22] the, um, Lincoln Institute did,

[1:15:24] uh, do presentations for the

[1:15:26] special committee.

[1:15:30] I thought they were quite good.

[1:15:32] I'm, I, I think they'll be

[1:15:34] extremely useful in terms of

[1:15:36] understanding um the impacts and

[1:15:38] how to go about these, these

[1:15:38] various mechanisms.

[1:15:39] Yeah.

[1:15:44] OK, I know we are only at what,

[1:15:46] 11:15,

[1:15:48] Um, but I think we've covered

[1:15:50] what was on the agenda for

[1:15:50] today.

[1:15:52] Is there?

[1:15:52] We need to have

[1:15:54] Sorry?

[1:15:56] Mone.

[1:15:58] thank you.

[1:16:00] Um, just as a follow up to that,

[1:16:00] I think it would be helpful, uh,

[1:16:02] as we look at different relief

[1:16:04] options to also look at if we

[1:16:06] have the information available

[1:16:08] of what the average property tax

[1:16:10] bill is in each county in

[1:16:12] Delaware, as well as our

[1:16:12] neighboring counties.

[1:16:14] From other states.

[1:16:16] And I don't know if that's

[1:16:18] something that the Lincoln

[1:16:18] Institute has, um,

[1:16:22] Happy to research that myself as

[1:16:24] well, um,

[1:16:26] but as we consider relief, it

[1:16:28] would also be appropriate to

[1:16:30] consider what the bills actually

[1:16:32] are and what's best for

[1:16:34] Delawareans. And

[1:16:36] you'd be looking for county and

[1:16:38] school tax, right? Total, yep,

[1:16:39] the property tax bill.

[1:16:48] I think we can probably get that

[1:16:50] um, I'm sure the counties have

[1:16:50] that. We're probably looking at.

[1:16:52] Then

[1:16:56] A median and an arithmetic

[1:16:56] average type of.

[1:17:00] Way of doing that, is that

[1:17:02] something reasonably easy to

[1:17:04] come up with. Oh, I'm sorry, I'm

[1:17:06] just, uh, my, my wheels are

[1:17:08] spinning. So, um, we have

[1:17:08] different tax rates for each

[1:17:10] municipality in New Castle

[1:17:10] County, so it really depends on

[1:17:12] where you live. Um, City of

[1:17:14] Wilmington resident will pay

[1:17:16] much sum, much different than uh

[1:17:20] someone outside the city. Uh, I

[1:17:20] think that the biggest.

[1:17:22] Thing we're all discussing

[1:17:22] through the school text.

[1:17:26] I mean, I, I have no problem

[1:17:26] providing average and median for

[1:17:27] the county.

[1:17:28] In

[1:17:30] In the municipalities and

[1:17:32] outside of the municipality

[1:17:34] rates, uh, averages and medians,

[1:17:36] um, school districts begin to

[1:17:38] apply something similar as well

[1:17:40] as well based on the meetings

[1:17:40] for those, um.

[1:17:44] But yeah, that's something we

[1:17:44] can.

[1:17:46] We can also throw together

[1:17:48] so. So it seems like we're

[1:17:48] asking the counties to do a lot

[1:17:52] of homework. So. Um, again, if

[1:17:52] like 2 meetings ahead.

[1:17:56] If that's reasonable, it's a

[1:17:58] month away, um.

[1:18:00] So hopefully.

[1:18:04] We can hear back at that time

[1:18:04] and we can add that to the

[1:18:06] agenda for that meeting

[1:18:08] and Ron has his hand raised. OK,

[1:18:10] Ron, you're

[1:18:14] Yeah, sorry, just, just quickly,

[1:18:18] uh, on that question about um uh

[1:18:20] the uh property tax levels in

[1:18:22] other states. We do have um part

[1:18:24] that we do have census data that

[1:18:26] we put into our database that

[1:18:26] gets updated annually.

[1:18:30] Unfortunately, um, it's always

[1:18:30] like a couple of years in

[1:18:32] arrears because of the, the way

[1:18:34] the census data is collected. So

[1:18:36] I think we, our most recent data

[1:18:40] is either 23 or 24, but we can

[1:18:40] at least give you statistics

[1:18:41] like the median assessment.

[1:18:44] Value, median single home value,

[1:18:48] uh, median property tax, uh,

[1:18:50] median property tax is a

[1:18:52] percentage of income. So we do

[1:18:52] have metrics like that, that are

[1:18:54] available by state. We don't

[1:18:56] have it on the county level, but

[1:18:56] we do have it by state.

[1:19:00] Yeah, that would be very

[1:19:02] helpful um if you could provide

[1:19:03] that for

[1:19:04] What do you want?

[1:19:06] New Jersey, Pennsylvania,

[1:19:06] Maryland, and Delaware.

[1:19:12] Data, does that seem

[1:19:12] appropriate?

[1:19:13] Yeah, that

[1:19:14] OK.

[1:19:18] And we have.

[1:19:22] Mr. Del Grande, thank you, sir.

[1:19:24] Um, I was looking at the

[1:19:28] proposed agenda and the, the,

[1:19:28] the January 11th, now January

[1:19:30] 25th topic administration data

[1:19:34] and implementation. I'm kind of

[1:19:36] wondering, should we have a

[1:19:38] small discussion of that during

[1:19:40] each of these prior meetings

[1:19:42] because ultimately depending on

[1:19:44] where we go, um, every one of

[1:19:46] these topics is going to have an

[1:19:47] impact on.

[1:19:47] Um,

[1:19:48] Administration and costs and

[1:19:49] those types of things.

[1:19:50] So should that be?

[1:19:54] A part of each meeting prior to

[1:19:56] that, just for a general

[1:19:56] conversation, not for like

[1:19:58] getting into the weeds on

[1:20:00] things, but to give folks

[1:20:02] expectations of what's actually

[1:20:04] doable or not in a in a time

[1:20:06] frame for that. I think that

[1:20:08] that's quite reasonable, and I

[1:20:10] would expect that we'd be

[1:20:12] hearing from the counties

[1:20:14] We can't do that. Sounds like a

[1:20:16] great idea, but there's no way

[1:20:16] to implement that, or the

[1:20:20] implementation is gonna be

[1:20:20] extraordinarily expensive or

[1:20:21] whatever.

[1:20:22] I

[1:20:24] sort of, that's the reason

[1:20:25] everyone's here.

[1:20:28] So I expect that to come up

[1:20:30] during discussions and various

[1:20:30] approaches so.

[1:20:34] And I did want to have that as a

[1:20:35] separate

[1:20:36] uh thing also because.

[1:20:40] At some point we're going to be

[1:20:40] in our heads looking at these uh

[1:20:42] all these options and trying to

[1:20:44] figure out what do we think

[1:20:48] seems most reasonable or seems

[1:20:50] doable, and then, um, you know,

[1:20:52] it's sort of, you have that

[1:20:54] reality check as, OK, yes, these

[1:20:55] are.

[1:20:58] Doable, but the implementation

[1:20:59] side of this is gonna be.

[1:21:02] Very onerous, um, you know, who

[1:21:04] are not so onerous, so that'll,

[1:21:06] that'll, I like having that as a

[1:21:08] separate discussion topic as

[1:21:08] well. Great.

[1:21:12] And just add for the, for the

[1:21:12] team here, uh, New Castle

[1:21:14] County, we average about 1500

[1:21:16] senior exemption applications a

[1:21:17] year.

[1:21:20] And we do not require seniors to

[1:21:20] reapply every year.

[1:21:24] Oh. But we do, we do manage the

[1:21:26] program weekly. We look for

[1:21:28] changes that happen every week

[1:21:28] and adjust from there.

[1:21:30] Did someone have their hand up,

[1:21:32] Uh, Bob Becker had his hand up,

[1:21:34] but he put it down, so I don't

[1:21:36] know if he still wants to

[1:21:36] comment. Bob, did you still I

[1:21:37] did.

[1:21:40] I do have a question. I'm not

[1:21:42] sure this is possible, but when

[1:21:46] we look at surrounding states,

[1:21:46] counties, and taxes.

[1:21:50] We could be comparing apples to

[1:21:52] oranges with the reality that

[1:21:54] those states could have sales

[1:21:56] tax and a different type of

[1:21:58] income tax, so the complete

[1:22:00] picture of revenue for a county

[1:22:02] could be comprised of more

[1:22:04] components than what Delaware

[1:22:06] has, so not suggesting we expand

[1:22:08] the scope at all. I heard

[1:22:08] earlier that that's clearly

[1:22:10] beyond the scope, but the, at

[1:22:14] least some caveat to the data we

[1:22:14] pick up from the surrounding

[1:22:16] states that we may not be

[1:22:16] comparing apples and apples

[1:22:17] with.

[1:22:20] This one, particularly in states

[1:22:20] that have significantly higher

[1:22:24] sales tax or sales tax period.

[1:22:26] So is that possible or is that

[1:22:26] too big an ask given the time

[1:22:27] frame?

[1:22:30] Well, I think, I think we can

[1:22:34] probably uh at least recognize

[1:22:36] which states have

[1:22:36] uh

[1:22:40] allow municipalities or local

[1:22:42] entities to add to a sales tax,

[1:22:43] um.

[1:22:46] Which is, you know, I think that

[1:22:50] would be the fair comparison

[1:22:50] here. OK. Thank you.

[1:23:00] OK. Any other questions,

[1:23:01] comments?

[1:23:04] No one's sowing tomatoes, so I

[1:23:06] guess I didn't completely do a

[1:23:08] bad job, um, we just forgot.

[1:23:10] You forgot the tomatoes. All

[1:23:10] right.

[1:23:14] I think Senator Huxtable will

[1:23:14] have a tomato stand out in front

[1:23:18] just play ball before the next

[1:23:18] meeting any, any.

[1:23:22] Do I hear a motion? We have to

[1:23:22] do public comment first. Oh yes,

[1:23:24] sorry.

[1:23:26] Anyone for per for public

[1:23:28] comment in person. I don't have

[1:23:29] anyone signed up in person for

[1:23:30] public comment, but if there's

[1:23:32] anyone online who would like to

[1:23:32] give comments, please use the

[1:23:33] raise hand button.

[1:23:40] I'm not seeing any hands raised

[1:23:41] on Zoom.

[1:23:44] OK, since there's uh, so we've

[1:23:46] now concluded public comments

[1:23:47] OK, since there's uh, so we've

[1:23:47] now concluded public comment

[1:23:48] section.

[1:23:50] So actually someone.

[1:23:50] All right,

[1:23:50] uh, Susan Stewart.

[1:23:56] You should be able to unmute and

[1:23:56] provide comments.

[1:24:00] Excellent. Thank you so much. I

[1:24:01] appreciate it.

[1:24:02] Um, good morning, everyone.

[1:24:04] Thank you for convening this

[1:24:06] group. I find it incredibly

[1:24:08] fascinating. I'm actually

[1:24:10] joining you as uh a citizen of

[1:24:12] New Castle County, even though

[1:24:14] in my work life, I do work for

[1:24:16] DC government as a fiscal

[1:24:18] analyst, writing the 51 city tax

[1:24:20] burden study. Uh, I just wanted

[1:24:22] to offer up that if you have any

[1:24:22] questions, we'd be happy to

[1:24:24] share that study with you. It

[1:24:26] looks at the hypothetical

[1:24:28] families across 6 different

[1:24:30] families in, uh, 51 different

[1:24:31] cities across.

[1:24:34] All the different, different

[1:24:36] states and looks at tax burden,

[1:24:36] including property tax, sales

[1:24:44] tax, income tax, and, uh, auto

[1:24:44] taxes.

[1:24:48] But thank you for committing the

[1:24:50] group, and that's all my public

[1:24:50] comment. Thank you. Thank you.

[1:24:54] OK. Uh, that's it for virtual

[1:24:55] public comment.

[1:24:58] OK, having concluded the public

[1:25:00] comment portion, do I

[1:25:04] hear emotions from what you do

[1:25:04] in church.

[1:25:08] We, we have a motion and a

[1:25:10] second to adjourn. All in favor.

[1:25:11] Say aye.e.

[1:25:11] We, we have a motion and a

[1:25:11] second to adjourn. All in favor.

[1:25:12] Say aye. Aye. Aye. Aye.

[1:25:13] All right.

[1:25:13] We, we have a motion and a

[1:25:13] second to adjourn. All in favor.

[1:25:14] Say aye. Aye. Bye.

[1:25:15] See you in a couple of weeks.

[1:25:16] Thank you everybody for being

[1:25:16] willing to do this. I know it's

[1:25:17] uh.

[1:25:20] It's not that easy to set time

[1:25:22] aside, and it's much appreciated

[1:25:24] and much needed. Thank you.

Property Tax Relief and Modernization Working Group

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