[19:27] meeting started

[19:32] called the meeting to order. Now

[19:34] we currently do not have a

[19:35] quuorum

[19:38] so if we do reach that point we

[19:39] we're missing a couple senators

[19:42] if we get to that point and they

[19:44] come in and we'll go back to

[19:45] this and we'll we'll do it

[19:49] do it from there so we'll go to

[19:54] previous meetings or we're not

[19:55] going to do that because we have

[19:56] to wait to my fault

[19:56] OK

[20:00] yes that's what I'm trying to

[20:06] the next item on the agenda is a

[20:08] presentation on safety and

[20:10] collaboration and construction

[20:13] zones for fire and EMS vehicles

[20:14] by Scott Epllin

[20:18] the assistant deputy secretary

[20:18] of the west Virginia Department

[20:19] of Transportation.

[20:22] is he here today

[20:23] come on

[20:32] thank you for being here today

[20:34] you sir appreciate that the

[20:35] well we've got one still short

[20:37] if you raise your right hand on

[20:38] through the oath

[20:41] do you solemnly swear or affirm

[20:42] that the testimony you shall

[20:44] provide shall be the truth, the

[20:45] whole truth and nothing but the

[20:48] truth so help you go sir OK

[20:49] thank you and you may proceed

[20:56] don't mind stand by we'll go

[20:58] ahead and take care of this

[20:58] business and then we'll be

[21:02] back to you. OK we do have a

[21:03] quorum now

[21:04] so I'm gonna

[21:08] have the committee clerk will

[21:10] take a silent roll call Quorumm

[21:11] has been established

[21:13] and now we'll move to the

[21:14] approval of the previous

[21:16] meeting's minutes. I move that

[21:17] the previous meeting's minutes

[21:18] be approved.

[21:19] The

[21:24] question is on the motion that

[21:25] previous meeting's minutes be

[21:28] approved all those in favor say

[21:29] a

[21:29] those opposed say no

[21:33] in the opinion of the chair the

[21:34] ays have it. I declare the

[21:35] motion

[21:37] now

[21:40] august

[21:41] minutes to be approved

[21:44] because that was for January

[21:47] that was for January we have two

[21:47] sets

[21:50] well that was for January so now

[21:51] we'll do August

[21:53] those in favor say a

[21:54] right

[21:57] those opposed no

[22:01] this is my opinion that the ayes

[22:02] have it

[22:02] so

[22:04] and

[22:06] the meeting is ajjo not the

[22:07] meeting is adjourned sorry not

[22:08] yet.

[22:11] we'll go back to the regular

[22:13] business with the presentation

[22:14] Mr Epllin you have the floor

[22:16] thank you

[22:20] the committee posed three

[22:26] areas or questions that they

[22:28] would like for me to address and

[22:29] all of it surrounds work zone

[22:32] safety and the coordination with

[22:33] firing EMS services

[22:36] the first one was the

[22:38] elimination of emergency

[22:41] crossovers when we install

[22:41] protective barriers

[22:46] as the rule of thumb there's

[22:48] typically two types it's either

[22:51] a cable barrier or a concrete

[22:52] medium barrier. Both of these

[22:56] are installed for safety usually

[22:57] driven by crash data

[23:00] one thing to note with the

[23:01] concrete

[23:04] barrier that's when we're

[23:05] typically widening

[23:09] for example the interstate and

[23:10] we're adding in filling in the

[23:11] median

[23:14] constructing the wall and thus

[23:15] eliminating the shoulder

[23:20] so then that poses a huge safety

[23:21] risk to have some type of break

[23:22] in that concrete wall.

[23:26] it can be done some may be

[23:28] familiar we've installed those

[23:29] on the turnpike

[23:32] back to a lot of referred

[23:34] to it as nomageddon. it was a

[23:35] huge snowstorm

[23:40] like in the2000s and

[23:44] those are effective. that

[23:46] unfortunately left a lot of

[23:48] motorists stranded for days

[23:50] somewhat paralyzed our first

[23:52] responder community that was a

[23:54] very unique circumstances but in

[23:56] working with the first responder

[23:59] community, we did identify

[24:02] solution and to my knowledge

[24:03] we haven't really had those

[24:03] types of issues since.

[24:07] with the cable barrier it is a

[24:08] costeffective way and we're

[24:10] trying to prevent crossover

[24:13] accidents, typically lead to

[24:13] a headon impact

[24:19] unfortunately we're not an

[24:19] enforcement

[24:22] agency even though

[24:26] we put up signage says and still

[24:28] use these so it's not just the

[24:30] first responder community and

[24:32] even our own maintenance

[24:34] operations that utilize them

[24:36] motorists will ignore the

[24:38] signage and take advantage of

[24:40] these so that poses an

[24:40] additional safety concern

[24:46] when people talk or you get

[24:47] feedback from the

[24:51] first responder community a lot

[24:53] of the ones that get eliminated

[24:54] when these are installed were

[24:55] not authorized to begin with

[25:00] they just happened over time so

[25:01] to speak, whether it's

[25:03] maintenance operations former

[25:05] construction project a lot of

[25:06] the time the contractors when

[25:08] they're replacing a bridge for

[25:09] an example we'll have something

[25:09] there and

[25:12] unfortunately just never went

[25:13] away.

[25:14] there are

[25:18] directives established

[25:22] when we're designing these and

[25:23] the design phase that we take

[25:25] that into account. a lot of it

[25:26] boils down to

[25:30] the safe distance between

[25:32] interchanges but also the

[25:33] roadway geometry comes into

[25:33] play.

[25:37] In fact, back in the old days

[25:38] and you've probably seen him

[25:39] yourself, it was just a gravel

[25:41] dip through the median and I've

[25:43] seen first responder vehicles be

[25:43] stranded there

[25:46] they just were not constructed

[25:47] for that

[25:51] no ther question that was posed

[25:51] was

[25:57] the boxes and emergency vehicles

[25:57] that change the signal lights.

[26:01] What that is it's an optical

[26:01] emitter

[26:05] and if the signalized

[26:07] intersection has up todate

[26:08] technology or has that

[26:10] technology and what we refer to

[26:11] as the cabinet

[26:14] you can install an optical

[26:16] emitter on the responding fire

[26:19] engine or ambulance that a lot

[26:22] of site does send a signal to

[26:23] that intersection and we'll

[26:26] instigate the change to where

[26:27] they're catching green lights.

[26:30] now when you get posed with the

[26:31] questions

[26:34] you know why can't we put these

[26:36] in all emergency vehicles. We do

[26:39] not regulate that typically when

[26:40] we install that technology in

[26:42] the intersection we give the

[26:43] responding

[26:44] typically firehouse

[26:46] we give them one

[26:50] they can get as many as

[26:51] possible. I would

[26:56] urge everybody to use caution

[26:57] that there's a lot of room for

[26:57] abuse with those

[27:01] it's almost the user's

[27:04] discretion is it a true

[27:07] emergency or emergency they deem

[27:09] it does disrupt the flow of

[27:10] traffic for everyone

[27:16] but we do not regulate or limit

[27:18] how many of those devices that

[27:19] the

[27:22] firehouse or the ambulance

[27:23] agency would utilize

[27:26] the other question that was

[27:27] posed was how can

[27:32] firing EMS communicate with

[27:35] flaggers and how can we develop

[27:36] a policy to

[27:37] implement that

[27:41] There are some challenges with

[27:41] that

[27:44] one we would want our

[27:45] flaggers to be concentrating on

[27:49] safely controlling the traffic

[27:49] through a work zone

[27:54] I'll share with you there are

[27:57] policies it's a design directive

[28:00] and when we develop a project,

[28:02] there's three level it's a

[28:04] transportation a TMP which is a

[28:06] transportation management plan.

[28:07] there's three levels

[28:10] level one being insignificant

[28:12] right up to a level3 being the

[28:14] most significant. A good example

[28:16] for that would be the Eugene

[28:18] Carter deck replacement project

[28:19] out here in the middle of

[28:19] Charleston

[28:22] That project is unique because

[28:23] that's the heavily traveled

[28:25] bridge in the state

[28:29] when we do that right from the

[28:32] conception or design we involve

[28:33] all stakeholders

[28:36] your first responder community,

[28:38] your business community even

[28:42] local hospitals other transit

[28:44] agencies that all stakeholders

[28:46] are identified and they are

[28:48] involved in every step of the

[28:49] way through the development of

[28:49] the project

[28:54] there's mandatory meetings so we

[28:56] get their feedback and some of

[28:57] the things that come up was

[28:57] uniquely

[29:00] how could they respond

[29:04] given any day there could be a

[29:06] change in traffic pattern even

[29:07] though part of this plan is

[29:09] public notification right down

[29:12] to aite of changing traffic

[29:12] patterns

[29:16] things happen during the

[29:17] sequence of construction

[29:21] on this as just as an example I

[29:22] think we added12

[29:24] Cctv cameras

[29:28] now obviously there may not be

[29:30] somebody at every station

[29:32] monitoring it so they're feeding

[29:33] into the 911 center

[29:37] first responder community that's

[29:38] how they chose to have that set

[29:39] up

[29:42] in an effort to give advanced

[29:46] notice. Now in contrast out in a

[29:48] rural setting could be a fewho

[29:49] pipe replacement project

[29:51] out on a rural county route

[29:55] the most effective thing

[29:55] there and I know

[30:00] many years ago, when I

[30:02] started I flagged traffic in

[30:04] most valuable tool there is the

[30:05] audible alarm of a siren.

[30:07] and when you hear that

[30:10] flagger and everybody they're

[30:11] working

[30:14] does everything possible to

[30:16] facilitate the efficient fast

[30:18] movement of that responding

[30:20] emergency vehicle through that

[30:21] work zone. those are typically

[30:22] small

[30:24] if nothing else and you just

[30:26] get everybody to stop if you had

[30:28] it down to one lane the

[30:30] responding emergency vehicle

[30:31] could easily navigate that

[30:36] and I touched on the the TNP

[30:38] because there was a question

[30:39] about a policy but it boils

[30:39] down

[30:44] to the level of the project or

[30:46] the significance of the project

[30:48] that's being constructed or

[30:49] maintained

[30:52] Now those were the three

[30:53] questions posed by the committee

[30:56] but I did agree to open it up

[30:58] to Q andA and try the field or

[31:01] address any additional

[31:01] concerns you may have.

[31:06] are there any questions from

[31:07] the committee?

[31:10] OK Mr Mallow

[31:13] or actually delegate Mallow

[31:17] thank you Mr chair thank you

[31:18] for being here great

[31:20] presentation. couple of

[31:23] questions. when you plan out a a

[31:24] highway do you plan out

[31:26] mandatory distances between the

[31:30] crossovers are they mandatory or

[31:31] do they just because you said

[31:33] they sometimes happen upon

[31:35] construction but is there not

[31:36] like every two miles or every3

[31:38] miles or whatever the number is

[31:42] unauthorized crossover for fire

[31:43] EMS and police

[31:43] good question

[31:47] Yes, according to the asto

[31:49] greenook or that's the design

[31:52] manual for all projects in all

[31:54] states. It's a a minimum of5

[31:55] miles

[31:58] so there is a standard there and

[31:59] we do take that into

[32:00] consideration when we're

[32:03] developing these plans that's

[32:04] why I was referring to you may

[32:05] have some existing ones

[32:08] before we come in and install

[32:09] the barrier system

[32:13] now they're blocked off it's

[32:14] probably because they did not

[32:18] meet the design criteria to be

[32:19] established in the first place.

[32:21] and the question that came from

[32:24] my fire department was that and

[32:26] where they go up79 just south of

[32:27] Morgantown

[32:29] if they lose that crossover, I

[32:32] think it's at exit143 they have

[32:34] to go up to where7968 meet to

[32:36] turn around to come back if

[32:37] they're they have to go

[32:38] northbound to get on the

[32:40] interstate, then they got to go

[32:42] to Morgantown and come back for

[32:44] a southbound fire or accident or

[32:45] whatever. so they're worried

[32:46] about response time. they're

[32:47] accustomed to using that

[32:49] authorized crossover there

[32:52] and we don't want to lose that

[32:54] because I think their biggest

[32:56] concern is like response time

[32:57] getting to the accident or

[32:57] getting to the fire

[33:02] ive miles seems a lot but that's

[33:03] just met I don't know

[33:07] yes and that's just we can

[33:10] obviously review each instance

[33:14] because we were partners in and

[33:16] we want to work hand in hand

[33:17] with them to address

[33:20] each and every situation. When I

[33:22] looked at the couple that were

[33:23] presented to me one

[33:24] unfortunately was removed due to

[33:27] the installation of the concrete

[33:28] wall in they expand into six

[33:31] lanes. The other one even though

[33:32] the cable is already installed

[33:34] it's still exists and is in use

[33:38] but I could see their fear

[33:40] and I will follow up and check

[33:41] with the local district office

[33:43] to make sure that particular

[33:44] locations addressed. thank you

[33:45] so much. thank you Mr Chair.

[33:48] senator Woodrum

[33:56] thank you Mr Chairman. You you

[33:58] mentioned that5 miles the the

[33:59] standard are there exceptions

[34:00] made for high oxidant areas

[34:06] obviouslybously there is room to

[34:08] review and we would perform have

[34:10] our traffic engineering

[34:11] department before a review but

[34:14] if the data is driving that, we

[34:16] would recognize that and make an

[34:18] exception but it still has to

[34:19] meet certain

[34:21] other thresholds for example the

[34:22] geometry

[34:26] to where we can do so safely

[34:28] because unfortunately it's not

[34:30] just the emergency vehicle

[34:31] community that takes advantage

[34:31] of those.

[34:34] even though we put there's

[34:36] proper signage you'll see it

[34:38] it's a no U-turn and authorized

[34:40] vehicles only signage there

[34:45] citizens still routinely

[34:45] utilize them

[34:48] but we can look at each and

[34:50] every case and review it and

[34:51] obviously make an exception

[34:54] if it's warranted.

[34:57] yeah I'm I'm on the 64 down near

[34:59] theandstone exit but both sides

[35:00] of that you've got a significant

[35:02] grade. it's not uncommon to have

[35:04] more than one accident at a time

[35:06] going on. Sometimes you may have

[35:08] three different accidents on on

[35:09] each side of that exit

[35:12] depending upon the weather

[35:13] and that's that's the reason I

[35:15] was asking our resources are

[35:16] already stretched thin without

[35:19] you know as he said me doing5

[35:21] miles to to make a loop to come

[35:23] back. we're typically

[35:26] we've got a volunteer fire

[35:26] department that's first

[35:28] responders but we have two other

[35:29] counties potentially that are

[35:30] trying to respond to that series

[35:33] of accidents as well. So it gets

[35:34] to be a lot to manage sometimes

[35:36] and I thought it was a way to

[35:37] make that easier on those high

[35:39] oxidant areas that would be be

[35:39] advisable.

[35:44] yes one thing we did discover

[35:46] I think it's worth noting years

[35:47] ago when a

[35:49] large scale incident or major

[35:52] accident does occur. the

[35:54] first few, experience these

[36:00] obstacles if you want to call it

[36:02] that. what happens is once

[36:04] everything gets shut down we

[36:06] bring in all of our first

[36:08] responders opposed through

[36:10] opposing traffic coming the

[36:11] other way to where they have a

[36:13] clear road right to the scene.

[36:14] We have felt that to be one of

[36:18] the most useful methods as far

[36:19] as saving time and resources

[36:23] doesn't always work but as a

[36:24] standard practice, the first

[36:26] community first responder

[36:28] community is very efficient and

[36:29] utilizing that technique.

[36:31] right thank thank you sir. Thank

[36:32] you Mr. Chairman.

[36:36] senior senator from the sixth

[36:42] Thank Mr Chaman thank you for

[36:44] being here Scott. Just while

[36:45] we're having these conversations

[36:46] I think about the four lanes

[36:49] it's been expanded to 6 lanes

[36:51] with the port wall in the middle

[36:51] and it just kind of makes it

[36:54] impossible to to get a crossover

[36:56] I think about other large

[36:58] metropolitan areas that have a 8

[36:59] and

[37:02] 10 lane highway you know there's

[37:03] no crossovers there are they I

[37:03] mean

[37:06] isn't that common in you know

[37:09] when you have like more than a

[37:10] four lane highway to not have

[37:11] the crossover

[37:16] correct especially in the more

[37:17] urbanized area you're

[37:19] interchange spacing it's gonna

[37:19] be much closer

[37:22] this really only comes into play

[37:23] in rural areas now

[37:28] where we have expanded to sixth

[37:30] lane you're taking away that

[37:32] shoulder that the emergency

[37:33] vehicle would use to decelerate

[37:36] and navigate that turn because

[37:38] it is a tight radius but it's

[37:39] not common in

[37:44] these multilane facilities to

[37:46] have emergency crossovers you

[37:48] mentioned the five miles is that

[37:50] selfimposed or is that aeder

[37:53] regulation or. That's acfR from

[37:54] the asshow greenook I believe I

[37:55] can

[37:58] follow up and verify that but

[38:00] I'm pretty sure that's where

[38:02] they got like a federaler

[38:03] mandated regulation

[38:05] guideline

[38:08] that's what would allow us a

[38:11] to be able to review each

[38:13] location independently.

[38:13] right thank youco thank you Mr

[38:14] Chairman.

[38:18] Any other questions

[38:22] I have one question

[38:26] you've mentioned something about

[38:29] something that was installed on

[38:30] the emergency vehicles that

[38:31] would

[38:34] would trigger the stoplights and

[38:35] you said that

[38:38] you felt like that at times was

[38:39] abused

[38:42] by some of the first responders

[38:44] is is that did I hear that right

[38:47] it'd say I would give caution

[38:48] that there is a lot of room for

[38:51] abuse to my knowledge it's not

[38:51] abused

[38:56] and and I'm saying we don't

[38:58] regulate I had a fire department

[38:59] once that wanted

[39:03] like 20 of them. I can't

[39:03] remember if this was years ago.

[39:05] we give one

[39:08] with the installation and then

[39:10] they are best suited that they

[39:13] know which engines or ambulances

[39:17] I don't to my knowledge it's not

[39:20] expanded to all the auxiliary

[39:21] vehicles they have

[39:22] but it

[39:26] for true emergencies and not out

[39:27] of convenience is what I'm

[39:28] trying to stress right and and I

[39:29] know

[39:31] back when I was

[39:32] a first responder

[39:35] it had to be

[39:40] a a a certain code you had to be

[39:41] running

[39:44] you know full code in order to

[39:46] get those services to you is

[39:47] that not the

[39:48] standard

[39:52] today it's only for a code3

[39:55] response so so it is so there is

[39:58] and and so I would think it

[39:59] would be hard to abuse if

[40:02] there is a standard out there to

[40:03] say you cannot

[40:04] utilize this

[40:08] piece of equipment unless you

[40:09] are running

[40:10] a code3

[40:16] Yes, and I can follow up on that

[40:19] where we don't enforce it, I

[40:20] don't know how the first

[40:22] responder community handles that

[40:26] I know in West Virginia for

[40:27] example, they're all optical

[40:28] line of sight

[40:34] in huge urbanized areas a lot

[40:36] of them are stationary and they

[40:38] utilize GPS and that's

[40:40] controlled through both the

[40:43] 911ent and the the station.

[40:45] but where it's just an opttacle

[40:47] that's on that vehicle there is

[40:47] an opportunity

[40:50] that it could be utilized and

[40:51] it's not

[40:54] I think some of them utilize

[40:56] it that they wire it in to where

[40:58] if they're not running for

[41:00] example lights and sirens, the

[41:01] optical emitter is not operable.

[41:06] so there are some methods you

[41:07] can utilize to minimize

[41:10] any potential malfunction so to

[41:11] speak.

[41:14] right but I think the just the

[41:16] you know to me it just appears

[41:19] that the there needs to be some

[41:21] accountability towards the

[41:22] first responders if they're

[41:23] abusing it like that

[41:24] because

[41:26] it it let's let's face it that's

[41:29] that's your that's a dangerous

[41:29] when you're running a code3

[41:34] you know it's it should be for

[41:35] those major

[41:36] emergencies

[41:41] because it does you know the the

[41:42] public will get used to the

[41:43] lights and siren

[41:45] if you're running it every time

[41:48] you go on a on a call so that's

[41:50] why we had a a standard that you

[41:51] could not well you could abuse

[41:52] it if you want but there should

[41:55] be accountability for those who

[41:56] you know that's that's for

[41:58] everyone's safety there because

[42:00] those are for those critical

[42:03] moments when emergency vehicle

[42:03] needs to get

[42:04] somewhere

[42:08] fast so I I would I would look

[42:09] at the

[42:11] the leadership of those

[42:13] agencies to

[42:15] hold them to their standard

[42:17] to fix that issue.

[42:21] yes sir in you're spot on what

[42:24] you do is you train the public

[42:26] to ignore it's very it's a

[42:28] parallel situation to our

[42:29] signage. when you look at

[42:30] safety and mobility and

[42:32] navigating through a work zone

[42:34] signage is critical. one of

[42:35] the

[42:38] big things is leaving up flagger

[42:39] signs overnight.

[42:42] that's very frustrating to us

[42:44] not only with our crews but all

[42:45] utilities. there's a lot of

[42:47] crews that utilize our roadways

[42:50] as work zones and what

[42:50] unfortunately what you're doing

[42:53] is training the public to ignore

[42:54] the signage you know it would be

[42:55] the same situation with

[43:00] a false alarm on utilizing an

[43:01] emitter it's like the boy who

[43:05] cried wolf you know you you you

[43:06] have all these things and then

[43:08] you find out well they were just

[43:10] there's no need for it so I

[43:11] appreciate are there any other

[43:11] questions

[43:13] sir

[43:21] a no unauthorized vehicles. Does

[43:22] it say there's a possibility of

[43:24] a fine and if so what is that

[43:25] amount?

[43:30] as far as the standard, there's

[43:31] nothing that lists the fine.

[43:32] there could have been something

[43:34] put up at some point and be a

[43:38] residual basically your your

[43:39] 9 dots on the placard

[43:43] along with the no Uturn and the

[43:43] authorized

[43:47] emergency vehicles only I think

[43:48] is the only two really signs

[43:52] that I heard your you made a

[43:54] great point that the motorist

[43:55] using that could be a safety

[43:57] hazard. So in order to keep

[43:59] those for our fire EMS and

[43:59] police

[44:02] could we maybe bring awareness

[44:05] level up with a fine and the

[44:05] potential of a fine

[44:10] I could definitely talk to our

[44:12] traffic engineering division and

[44:14] and report back to see if that

[44:16] needs further action. That'd be

[44:18] greatid. thank you so much.

[44:19] thank you Mr Chairman. Yes sir

[44:22] if there are no other questions

[44:23] we got one up

[44:27] it would be the senator from

[44:27] Upshurre

[44:30] thank you Mr Chairman and

[44:32] unfortunately I'm going to ask a

[44:33] question

[44:36] for clarification that's

[44:38] probably running through every

[44:39] member of this committee this

[44:39] morning

[44:43] you're not considering giving

[44:44] those to delegates and senators

[44:45] are you

[44:50] no sir unfortunately thank you

[44:51] that's never been addressed

[45:03] if there are no other questions

[45:06] I see none thank you so much

[45:07] I appreciate your

[45:10] your presentation Mr Epllin

[45:11] and

[45:14] you have nothing furthers are

[45:16] there any is there any other

[45:17] business before the committee?

[45:22] there being no further business

[45:23] before the committee. I

[45:24] recognize the cochair.

[45:28] all those in favor say aye all

[45:32] the all those opposed say no in

[45:34] the opinion of the chair the ays

[45:35] have it the meeting is adjourned

[45:35] to get you

Joint Committee on VFD and EMS in Session

Agenda

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