[0:19] She starts

[0:28] down.

[0:32] Okay. Good evening everybody. Welcome to the West Ocean Township Board of

[0:35] Supervisors meeting for September the 1. To start the meeting, will you please

[0:39] stand and join me in the pledge of allegiance

[0:46] to the flag of the United States of America and to the stands one

[0:55] indivisible and justice for all.

[1:01] Thank you. Please be aware this meeting is being live streamed on the township

[1:05] YouTube channel and that uh the meeting may also be audio or video recorded by

[1:11] parties present in the room. Our first item of business is public comment. Is

[1:16] there anyone here who has a comment or a question about something that is not on

[1:21] the agenda this evening? Yes, ma'am.

[1:28] This is my fellow. >> Yes.

[1:40] [clears throat] >> Thank you. My name is Suzanne Harkkins.

[1:43] Um before spontaneously, I want to say how lovely it is to see the art exhibit

[1:48] out uh in the foyer. My grandmother entered one of those a number of years

[1:52] ago and it was really special for her. So um they're just wonderful. The courts

[1:55] are and the paintings are amazing. So, uh, well done. Um, so first off, I want

[2:01] to say that it seems like a lot of hard work to run the township. Uh, and thank

[2:06] you for that work. My comment today relates to the proposed zoning ordinance

[2:11] update. So, it's a really dense 205page document essentially sets out the vision

[2:16] for the township's future and what is permitted and what is not permitted. Its

[2:22] subjects are wide ranging, but my focus here today is really the R1 and R2

[2:27] residential zones, the declared purposes and intent for them and the permitted

[2:31] their proposed permitted uses within them. So the bottom line is as written

[2:37] now I I don't support the proposed uh purposes and intents and nor their

[2:43] permitted uses as written. uh and why so some extracts I'm condensing this for

[2:48] speed but obviously see the document for the full text page two in the community

[2:53] development objectives contains phrases like protecting the health and general

[2:57] welfare of Wisconsin residents the compatible compatible balance of

[3:01] residential commercial and industrial areas also accommodating reasonable

[3:06] overall community growth including preventing excessive concentration of

[3:10] public uh population now seeing cut to the lived experience

[3:15] of West Scotian residents and taxpayers. Now, uh what I consistently hear from

[3:20] people is that there is already too much traffic. Uh the continuous development

[3:24] is really reducing the quality of life in the township and putting pressure on

[3:28] the township's roads and on other infrastructure. I also hear people

[3:32] consistently talk about how much they value the West Ocean's nature and

[3:35] wildlife. So, it was a surprise to read section

[3:40] 84.6, Six, the statement of purposes and intent for zoning districts. The R1

[3:46] district, which is uh on the map, it looks like it's about 10% in that north

[3:49] part above the burrow, which is uh 2B predominantly single family detached

[3:55] residential dwellings as well as other moderately dense housing types.

[4:00] R2 which is looks to be about 50 plus% of the township. The intent for the

[4:05] district is to accommodate the expansion of suburban development in those areas

[4:10] best suited for medium density residential development. And I I think

[4:15] it's important to note the contrast from R1 which is the intent is predominantly

[4:20] single family detached dwellings which implies that R2 might not be. This reads

[4:25] like a green light for dense property development. It gets worse in sections

[4:31] 84.14 and 84.16 where the permitted uses in

[4:35] both R1 and R2 includes a range of resident types, everything from town

[4:40] houses to multif family dwellings and more. Uh please see the the documents

[4:45] themselves. But in other words, the current zoning protections that limit

[4:50] development to detached single family dwellings for the majority of

[4:54] residential ocean, which looks like in the map eyeballing about 60% are

[4:58] removed. The proposed changes will alter the fundamental character of the

[5:03] township and over time Chris at the risk create at the risk of being a little bit

[5:08] dramatic, but I think the imagery is important here, a wild west go property

[5:12] development bonanza because people can do essentially open up these single

[5:16] family dwellings to so many different other types from corporations or private

[5:20] owners. In conclusion, I generally recognize

[5:25] that updating the ordinances is a very hard task and so is evaluating them. For

[5:31] clarity, I do want the zoning to remain as single family, detached residence,

[5:36] dwellings only for R1 and R2. Most people don't know that this

[5:42] comprehensive rewrite is happening. I hope we can find a better way forward

[5:46] for West Ocean than these R1 and R2 ordinances as currently written. one

[5:50] that protects it from excessive development and protects the nature in

[5:54] the township. And if I can be of assistance in helping to find that way,

[5:58] I am willing. So, thank you. >> Thank you, Suzanne. I appreciate your

[6:03] comments. Um, Chris, just remind the board where we are in the process of

[6:08] review and adoption of the new ordinance.

[6:11] » Um, so we received comments back from the Chester County Planning Commission.

[6:15] Those comments were uh reviewed at the August 18th board meeting. Generally

[6:19] speaking, the county planning commission supported the work that was done by the

[6:24] township um in compliance with the township with the county's comprehensive

[6:28] plan. Um we are making uh change we're making the requested changes from the

[6:34] board in alliance with the comments that were received. Um and then those will go

[6:39] back to the county for their review as well as our planning commission for for

[6:44] their review. But it is just to address the comments that were from the county

[6:47] planning commission and the updates that are made in accordance with those

[6:50] comments. And then it'll be advertis. It's been advertise on the township

[6:54] website for two months I want to say since about the

[6:59] end of June, beginning of July. And we've been running articles in the

[7:02] township newsletter every month since in July and August. Um so it'll be

[7:07] advertised for a public hearing once the once the next round of review comments

[7:11] come back. >> Okay. And there were you comments that

[7:15] the discussion on August 18th mainly centered around the data center

[7:18] language. Correct. >> Correct.

[7:21] » And I'll just note that we held a joint public meeting with the planning

[7:26] commission and the board of supervisors back in January that was publicly

[7:29] advertised. Um we've held we've held discussions with both the board of

[7:34] supervisors as well as the land planning committee. All those meetings have been

[7:37] publicly advertised. Um so there has been opportunity for input along during

[7:42] this process. >> Yeah, I mean your comment's a fair one.

[7:46] Um I think we have to balance kind of expectations [clears throat] people have

[7:51] about the fact that there is not enough housing in this country and that we have

[7:55] a developed uh area here suburban development that can uh we have seen

[8:00] infill developments mainly of single family homes. Most of our multif family

[8:06] construction in the last seven years that I've been on the board has been

[8:09] along the main corridors like uh the point and luxur I don't know what it's

[8:15] called now. And then uh we've had a couple of other uh additional type of uh

[8:23] like the the quality is being redeveloped into a assisted living

[8:28] facility. They've all tended to be where we've had dens denser development along

[8:33] the main corridors. Um I think in R1 and R2 lot sizes are going to limit the

[8:41] ability for anyone to come in and put substantial development in unless they

[8:45] acquire several lots. Um so I think again in my perspective it is a balance

[8:51] between allowing people to exercise their private property rights for infill

[8:56] development while still maintaining reasonable zoning with respect to uh

[9:03] what can be done on an individual lot for the the residential zones that we

[9:07] have. Anyone else want to add to that? Well, just just to kind of build on

[9:11] that, we did do a um what I'll call like a vacant land or build out analysis as

[9:16] part of this process. And the ultimate determination of this was that the

[9:20] township is very nearly built out. After Graceman is completed, there are

[9:26] not many parcels for large scale development.

[9:32] » And I suppose the question uh is is that a bad thing? Again, going back to I I

[9:38] take the point about uh housing need in the country, but this is really about

[9:43] West Scotian residents and taxpayers and the taxes that they pay and the desire

[9:47] to reflecting those. I did watch the January presentation. I was not in

[9:53] attendance. I did watch the video and I noted there was a question about well

[9:57] could someone just rip down a house and build uh multif family or you know build

[10:02] multiple dwellings on it and the answer from JD was yes they could do that. It

[10:06] opens the door for property developers and I did have the sense that um it was

[10:13] written from the perspective of property developers not really to provide housing

[10:19] in America for the unhoused. So with that in mind, I respectfully disagree

[10:26] and still maintain my point. And I think the there I think there is a

[10:30] fitforpurpose issue that's broader than just this. And I 100% trust that

[10:36] emphatically that the proper process of uh advertising and holding meetings has

[10:42] been undertaken. I have absolutely no question about that. But I think there's

[10:46] a fit for purpose issue because it was sad to see at the last meeting that

[10:50] there were four people at the end of the meeting. That's not a lot of civic

[10:52] engagement. It's I don't think people know, nobody I have spoken to about

[10:58] this, other residents have known that this ordinance was going and reading a

[11:02] very dense 205 page document, it's very difficult for members of the public to

[11:08] be able to do that comprehensively and uh effectively. So that's a a broader

[11:14] issue, but I think a very relevant one here. And I will maintain that I do not

[11:19] believe that residents want that widened zoning for different residential house

[11:24] types. >> Okay.

[11:26] » Absolutely not. >> Okay. Thank you.

[11:28] » Thank you. >> Is anyone else with a public comment?

[11:31] » Yes, ma'am. >> Um, am I allowed to give a public

[11:34] comment if I'm not a Scotian resident? >> You are. You may be limited the amount

[11:39] of time depending on what your subject is. If you just at least state your name

[11:42] and where you do live, please. >> Good evening. Um, my name is Carrie

[11:46] Rosscamp. I live in Thornbury Township, 227 St. Hill Lane, Westchester. And, uh,

[11:52] it's great to be here. The reason I'm here tonight is to introduce, if you

[11:55] haven't heard about it, a greenway that's being proposed that kind of

[11:59] dovetales into the interest in recreation and nature and preservation

[12:02] of land. It would be a rail with trail plan in the SEPTA corridor. Um, Chris

[12:08] has been copied on this a couple of times. It would begin on Market Street

[12:13] of Westchester Burrow and extend all the way down to the Wawa station on route

[12:18] one be a 9.29 mile trail and West Ocean would be one of the municipalities

[12:23] adjacent to the septic corridor. So it would cross through two counties and

[12:27] seven municipalities and affect probably close to 100,000 local residents not

[12:33] counting students at Westchester University and Shane University. Um by

[12:37] our estimate it would connect uh high schools, elementary schools, YMCA's

[12:43] parks um etc etc in addition to the two

[12:47] universities um the major railroad station on on

[12:52] route one and then of course the burrow which is a huge um you know area for

[12:56] entertainment, restaurants, etc. Um, I just wanted to invite you if you'd like

[13:03] to get a full presentation, I'd be happy to come back and do that. But to alert

[13:07] you to the fact that today we met with John O'Brien, who's of the Westchester

[13:10] Business Improvement District, and he has agreed to apply for a um,

[13:16] feasibility study application on our behalf through the local share account,

[13:20] which is a pool of money that's set aside from gaming revenue. the projects

[13:25] can max out at $1 million a piece and they're no grant, meaning if that grant

[13:31] is approved, there's no cost to the m municipalities

[13:35] um to, you know, help fund a feasibility study. Um anyway, that's that's it in a

[13:41] nutshell. I'd be happy to come back some other time and provide maps and more

[13:44] information, but at some point, uh Chris will be the contact person to be

[13:50] notified. Um each of the township managers will be invited to contribute a

[13:56] letter of support for the project. Um I think it would be a tremendous long-term

[14:02] um enhancement of recreation and um transportation opportunities for the

[14:07] municipalities. In in other words, this is akin in my

[14:11] mind to the Chester Valley Trail where maybe there was some opposition at first

[14:15] because of property values or theft or crime rates going up and then as it was

[14:20] put into place an ADA accessible trail that you could use for strollers and

[14:26] wheelchairs and biking and cycling and dog walking. It was embraced by the

[14:30] community and um you know has been a tremendous success and has increased

[14:36] property values and is being extended as far as I know out to Downington. Now, um

[14:41] the southern end of our trail, coincidentally passing through Delco

[14:44] County, was written into the Delco Planning Commission trail map system

[14:48] years ago and was intended to be a an extension of the Chester Creek Trail,

[14:54] which as you know is being built um with their northern terminus at the Wawa

[14:59] Station. Um and also just one final note is this trail would dovetail in addition

[15:04] to the railroad station at Wawa. Uh it would meet up with two other trails in

[15:10] the um circuit trail network. The Octa Railroad Trail, which is I believe an

[15:14] eight mile trail, which will go east west along par one and um like I said

[15:19] the west the Chester Creek Trail which will eventually will go down to the

[15:23] Delaware River. So it's it it will be just an enormous point of connection

[15:28] north to south um for all our municipalities of not just Westchester

[15:33] Burough, West Ocean, Thornbury, Chesco, Westtown, Thornbury, Delo, Middletown,

[15:37] Winchester Heights. >> Okay, thank you.

[15:40] » Quick question. Is is the property all owned by SE?

[15:44] » Yes, but it's leased to the burrow. The burrow leases that and it's subleasased

[15:48] to the railroad company that operates their passenger railroad.

[15:51] » Yes, it's >> first I'm hearing of and I don't think

[15:54] the burrow understands >> what's happening.

[15:57] » It's leased to it's accepted land leased to the burrow subleased to the I don't

[16:02] remember the name of the sub but they operate I think it's called core states

[16:05] LLC or something like that. So >> okay

[16:07] » it's being used as a real and sept is not real easy to work with. We we we

[16:12] already have we already have had multiple discussions with SEPTA. They do

[16:19] approve of this project. I know there are some attempts to restore passenger

[16:23] rail on a section of the rail which is currently operating only a historic

[16:28] train at a very low speed. Um this trail would in no way conflict. In fact, it's

[16:35] almost like a symbiotic relationship like this hike belly gorge where they

[16:39] have historic train and a bike trail. That's what the vision is. Um the most

[16:44] of the corridor there is almost a football fieldwide. I know the grade

[16:48] changes at points and so it's hard to imagine another trail going in but it is

[16:53] a very large corridor. Do you know what the total cost proposed total cost is

[16:58] after the feasibility study is completed and also where the money will come from

[17:03] to implement that? >> At this point I would say the

[17:07] feasibility study is a a high quality feasibility study is purposefully

[17:13] intended to answer all the questions about cost, trail access, parking,

[17:19] maintenance, ownership, etc., etc. Um, I know on the Chester Creek trail side, it

[17:26] was a friends group that got that trail started. Um, three miles have been built

[17:31] of the 5 miles plant and it took them 20 years and that ownership of that piece

[17:36] of land has gone over to Delaware County, but the friends group got it

[17:40] started and it was painfully slow and uh, we hope we're not at that pace

[17:44] because some of the original members of that group died before the shovels hit

[17:48] the ground and that trail has been a phenomenal success. They're currently

[17:51] redoing their parking lots to accommodate all the people that want to

[17:55] um you know go on it now. Yeah. So yeah, I'm happy

[18:01] to give a more full presentation another time.

[18:03] » So just up there you just informing the board that you're going to be looking

[18:05] for a supporting letter for this LSA grant application. Correct.

[18:10] » Yes. I it's like mainly information. I'm happy to follow through with anybody

[18:14] individual, but we are well aware that SEPTA is the owner. Westchester Burrow

[18:18] is leasing it. They sublease a portion of it. We we know that. We've worked

[18:22] with the railroad people. >> Subleas the entire right ofway from the

[18:25] burrow station to Guawa. >> They they do they don't actively put

[18:29] their train on more than the first 5 miles of it, but I think they

[18:32] occasionally run a car or something there. But yes, no, we're we're we're

[18:36] well aware of that. We have very detailed maps. We're working with people

[18:39] like John Randolph on the Skookul River Trail and Ray UT who's been developing a

[18:43] lot of trails in the county area here. Um, and like I said, people on the

[18:47] Westchester Chester Creek Trail side. So, we're

[18:51] we're we're very closely um, you know, related to people on

[18:57] Pennsylvania environmental council and DBRPC and a

[19:01] lot of other people who advised this on trail development.

[19:04] » Okay. Well, thank you. >> Yeah. Thank you.

[19:06] » Is there anyone else for the public comment this evening?

[19:10] Okay. Okay, then we'll move on to the next agenda item, which is agenda item

[19:15] number four, discussion and possible approval of an Eagle Scout project for

[19:20] Walter Conrad to install a Gaga ball pit at Cooper Smith Park. Chris will

[19:26] introduce that and Walter's going to come up to the microphone. Thank you.

[19:29] Welcome, >> Mr. Chairman. For the board this evening

[19:32] is a proposed Eagle Scout project for Walter Conrad. Mr. Conrad is proposing

[19:37] to install a Gaga pit in Cooper Smith Park. Uh the proposed project was

[19:41] reviewed by the park and recreation board at their meeting on August 19th

[19:44] [clears throat] uh where it was unanimously recommended

[19:47] for approval. Um prior to the presentation by the park and recreation

[19:51] board, the the proposed project was reviewed by the township's park and

[19:54] recreation director uh Kenneth Leer who is here this evening as well as the

[19:59] public works department who are also supportive of the installation. Um and

[20:04] Mr. Conrad has provided a brief presentation [clears throat]

[20:07] uh providing an overview of his project. One minute to bring that up

[20:13] and I will turn it over to him. So Walter just tell me when to change

[20:16] slides. >> Thank you. Hi, my name is Walter Conrad.

[20:19] I'm a candidate for Eagle Scout with Troop 7 in Melvin, Pennsylvania. I very

[20:24] much enjoy playing Gaga ball which is a game like dodgeball but the you hit the

[20:28] ball with your hand and I believe the youth attending West Gian day camp and

[20:33] Cooper Smith Park as well as the kids in the surrounding neighborhood should have

[20:36] a new permanent Gaga ball pit. I'm seeking approval from the West Ocean

[20:42] Township Board for my Eagle Scout project which is building a Gaga ball

[20:45] pit at Cooper Smith Park. My trip has experienced youth have already created

[20:49] Gaga ball pits for other schools such as St. Norberts and we are prepared to fund

[20:55] and build the Gugup ball pit for Cooper Smith Park. I personally have built

[20:58] furniture and I'm prepared to lead this project to benefit the youth around

[21:02] Cooper Smith Park. Next,

[21:07] I propose building a permanent Gaga ball pit at Cooper Smith Park to replace the

[21:11] inflatable one that the township currently uses. The Gaga ball pit will

[21:16] be an octagon. It will have 8 ft long sides and 30 in will be 30 in high. It

[21:22] will be approximately 20 ft across. But next

[21:28] I will be uh it will be an octagon with 8 ft long blue sides and ADA door,

[21:34] rubber flooring with holes for drainage and a notch to get in easier and dark

[21:38] blue corners hinges. The the sample up here with the red hinges, it would be

[21:43] that but with the blue hinges on the right.

[21:48] Next, who will pay? Donations will be

[21:51] forthcoming from friends in the scouting community, family, and I would accept

[21:56] donations from for the project from anyone here.

[22:02] Official what or what I need? Official approval from the West Scotian Township

[22:07] Board, the Chester County Council, um, and the location of where the donors

[22:12] have unofficially lined up can send their donations. a mailing address for

[22:16] the donations via check, cash, and if possible, a place for credit card

[22:20] donations. The company Coach Cliff Gaga Ball Pits will require full payment in

[22:25] order to ship the materials. I complete uh a completed Pennsylvania sales tax um

[22:32] exemption form, a total amount of $8,329.

[22:37] If the PA sales and tax exempt form and 501c number is provided, the amount

[22:43] would be 4 71 less. Next,

[22:48] when this when will this be completed? I would love to get this built by

[22:53] November. My project is pending West Ocean Township approval, Chester County

[22:57] Council approval, and arrival of the full amount of funding, full payment to

[23:02] the supplier, and availability of materials, shipment to West Ocean and

[23:06] weather. Do you guys have any questions? >> Thank you, Walter. Very good. Um, so let

[23:13] me see. Does the board have any questions for Walter about this project?

[23:17] » Sure, Walter. So, is this like the standard size for a Gaga ball pit?

[23:22] » Um, this is a pretty standard size. This one will be a little bit bigger though.

[23:26] That way we can accommodate for more people

[23:29] » and like will camp kids be playing in it, things like that.

[23:33] » Yeah, currently the the Cooper Smith Parks day camp uses inflatable Gaga ball

[23:38] pit. So, this would replace that. And if any of those kids want to do it on their

[23:43] free time, they'll be able to do that. >> That's great. Thank you.

[23:46] » So, would it be in the exact same place is where the inflatable one is put up or

[23:50] do you have a different location in mind?

[23:52] » Uh, it is planned to be built at the exact same place where the current one

[23:57] is, the inflatable one. >> And it would be um it would be

[24:02] permanent. It would be there all year round available for everyone.

[24:04] » Yes, it would be permanent. >> Okay. And what kind of maintenance is

[24:07] required for it? Um, I can't think of any maintenance because

[24:13] the mats would like probably make sure or would make sure that the grass or

[24:17] anything would not go through and we're using composite lumber, so it's like

[24:21] plastic, so it should last like 40ome years.

[24:24] » Okay. Anyone else with a question? >> Uh, yeah. Is the inflatable the same the

[24:28] current inflatable the same size as the one that you're proposing? Uh, it's

[24:32] about the same size, but apparently the uh the staff at the day camp have to

[24:39] bring out the inflatable every single day and they have to take it home every

[24:42] single night. So, it' be saving them some time.

[24:44] » Okay. Thank you. >> Thank you.

[24:48] » Have you started receiving donations yet?

[24:50] » Uh, I'm not allowed to receive donations yet till I get approval from the West

[24:54] Coast Township. >> I have a question for Chris. Chester

[24:58] County counts. Chester County, we talking about their approval would be

[25:02] needed for this. Walter seems to think so.

[25:04] » Yeah, that's that's where I was a little bit confused.

[25:08] » I need >> Yeah, I need my Boy Scout council's

[25:10] approval. >> Got it. Thank you. And then um so I got

[25:15] a little bit of sticker shock when I saw how much money you needed to raise. And

[25:18] I before this meeting, I did a quick Google look as to what Gaga pits might

[25:23] cost. I don't think the ones I looked at were as good as and nice as what you

[25:28] showed here today, but they were substantially cheaper. So, I wondered if

[25:32] you'd done any evaluation yet on how to get the price a little lower for just so

[25:36] you can make it easier on yourself to raise the the money that you need.

[25:41] Um, these ones are like the best ones that

[25:45] they have out there and a lot of the cost is just coming from the like the

[25:51] composite lumber, but that's makes it sure that it will last for a very long

[25:56] time, not have to be replaced. >> Okay. So, two other questions maybe for

[26:00] Chris, I think. So, typically we do not like to be the recipient of fundraising

[26:06] here at the township. So unfortunately on that Walter, we would look to the Boy

[26:11] Scouts to be the ones managing the collection of the donations. We don't

[26:16] like to have the situation where we have staff at the township receiving money

[26:20] and making sure it's kept separate from our accounts and everything else. So

[26:25] it's best, I think, would you agree, Chris, that the Boy Scouts manage the

[26:29] process of your fundraising? >> And then secondly, one question I do

[26:34] have though is maybe to help try to lower the cost. I asked Ken this earlier

[26:38] is is if the township was once you raised the money, if the township was to

[26:43] procure this through our co-stars um type pricing, would we get a better

[26:48] price than has been quoted to to Walter? What do you think?

[26:53] » We can look into that >> because then we could purchase it and

[26:56] you would just reimburse the township for it. We could certainly go out and

[27:00] get a competitive price for you against what you've been quoted from so far and

[27:04] see if we can get a lower a lower price >> for the same design that you want.

[27:10] » Oh, >> you [clears throat] have to give us the

[27:12] specifications for exactly what you wanted and what you can quote it and

[27:15] then we can see if we can get a better price.

[27:17] » All right, I can do that. Uh, >> and then Boy Scouts need to we need to

[27:24] fund raise the money and just hand it over to you guys then. But you would

[27:27] fund raise the money and then if you if we don't get a better price, you would

[27:31] purchase the uh equipment yourself and then we would just lay with you for the

[27:35] installation. >> If we can get a better price, it has to

[27:38] be procured it through a municipal uh purchase order. Then we would purchase

[27:44] it and you would reimburse us from what you fund raise for the for the amount.

[27:48] » Uh >> but we'll get you the price that we can

[27:51] get it for and see if it's better than what you've already got. Does that sound

[27:54] reasonable? >> That sounds reasonable. There are two

[27:56] generally two companies that we've utilized through co-stars. Um, General

[28:00] Recreation, they provided the quote for the splash pad. They also did the skate

[28:04] park project and um, Boyce Recreation. Um, they're doing the playground change

[28:10] out at South Conquered Crest Park. So, we can look for both of them,

[28:13] » but we won't compromise your design. You tell us exactly what it is you're

[28:17] looking for in terms of the design, the quality if you want, and we will make

[28:20] sure we get pricing for the equivalent design for you. Okay.

[28:25] » Okay. >> Any other questions for Walter?

[28:28] » Ken has a question. >> Ken,

[28:30] » just to clarify, um Walter did indicate at the park and recreation board meeting

[28:35] that for scout projects, they typically team up with a 501c3 organization to

[28:40] take care of the fundraising and the the payment distributions. Uh at that

[28:45] meeting where Jerry Napichek and Susan Batton representing the friends of West

[28:49] Ocean Parks and they did agree that the friends of West Ocean Parks would

[28:53] partner. So it would not be a township. >> Okay. Well, that's the solution to that

[28:57] then, right? I believe. Yeah. Chris, you would be okay with that, right?

[29:02] » Independent. Yep. >> They're an independent 501c3.

[29:05] » Okay. Is there anyone here in attendance who has a question for Walter's project?

[29:11] » Yes, Suzanne. >> Uh, so I love games. I've never heard of

[29:15] that. So, I was wondering how you can help others in the community to learn

[29:19] what it is and how to play so that the community can make the most of it. So,

[29:23] with the Gaga ball pit we currently have, it will have a little tiny sign on

[29:27] site to show you all the rules so people can learn how to play and if they

[29:30] already know how to play, they can get a refresher.

[29:36] » Great answer. >> Yeah. Yeah.

[29:38] » Anyone else with a question? Well, thank you. Fabulous presentation.

[29:42] We look forward to working with you and trying to make this happen as soon as we

[29:45] can. >> Mr. Chairman, I I think there should be

[29:47] a vote to approve the the installation. >> Sounds good. All right. So, as a board

[29:52] member, I will want to make a motion to approve the uh installation of a gargle

[29:58] pit at Cooper Smith Park as part of the Boy Scouts project for Walter Conrad.

[30:03] » Second. >> Okay, so Nate's made the motion and Tina

[30:06] is second. Is there any public comment or questions about the motion?

[30:10] Okay, then we'll take a vote. All in favor say I. I. Is there anyone opposed?

[30:15] [clears throat] >> Hearing none, the motion passes 40.

[30:18] Thank you, Walter. >> Thank you very much. You're welcome to

[30:21] stay. [applause]

[30:25] You're welcome to stay and enjoy the rest of the meeting. Or if you've got

[30:28] other things you'd rather be doing, no problem. [laughter]

[30:32] » Walter, do you need Do you need a letter from me confirming the board's approval?

[30:36] » Um, >> so I can get you that tomorrow. It's not

[30:38] a problem. >> I need to get something signed from

[30:41] Eagle Scout papers. >> Okay. Yeah, just send me send me

[30:43] whatever you need signed and I'll take care of it for you.

[30:46] » Thank you very much. Very good. So, we'll move on to agenda

[30:52] item number five. Discussion and possible approval of a request from

[30:56] Westchester University for use of fireworks firework displays during home

[31:01] football games on September the 12th and October the 17th, 2026.

[31:06] Chris, >> Mr. Chairman, before the board this

[31:09] evening is a request from Westchester University to open fireworks displays

[31:13] during their home football games on September 12th and October 17th. We have

[31:18] representatives from the university here this evening to discuss this and answer

[31:21] any questions that the board may have. Um the university is following the same

[31:25] procedures for this display as were outlined for the RAM rally that was

[31:28] approved on July 21st. Um it's my understanding that these will this these

[31:34] events will be smaller and shorter displays than what was done for the RAM

[31:38] rally. Additionally, the university has secured agreements with Good Fellowship

[31:42] Ambulance Company for coverage and provided a diagram of the location to be

[31:45] utilized. Uh they've also submitted a special event submitted special event

[31:49] permit application to the township and I've spoken with our fire marshal Mike

[31:53] McCarthy who advised that um that provided they are following the same

[31:57] procedures as the ram rally he does not have any concerns with this event. So

[32:02] I'll bring up the information that they provided.

[32:21] So this is where the uh where everything will be launched from. Um generally it's

[32:28] the same exact location as was approved for the RAM rally back in July that was

[32:32] held in August. >> Thank you Chris. Welcome Julianne. I'm

[32:38] sorry. >> My name is Kim Farah.

[32:40] » Nice nice to meet you. Thank you for being here. Does the board have any

[32:43] questions for Julio Kim? >> Yeah. So, I mean, it seems like you guys

[32:47] come before us a lot to ask for permission for sort of the same thing.

[32:51] I'm just wondering if there's a requirement that we have to approve

[32:55] every one of these individually if we can have some understanding that, you

[32:59] know, certain times of the year they'll be doing fireworks displays like home

[33:03] games or during homecoming. Or how does the board feel about that? And do we

[33:07] have to evaluate these every time they come to us? Because I don't see anything

[33:11] really changing. >> There is nothing required in terms of

[33:16] board approval. It's just been past practice. So if the board would like to

[33:20] change that as a policy direction, that is certainly within the board's ballot.

[33:23] » I would be okay with that as long as the none of the conditions or terms or

[33:28] requirements within that don't change. But if they do for whatever reason,

[33:33] maybe you want bigger display or something, then I think approval should

[33:37] come back >> and give it for our fire marshall and

[33:40] everybody else that needs to go through. >> Other than that, I I think we can

[33:43] standardize it. >> Yeah, there's some sort of agreement

[33:45] maybe that we can draft that we can kind of come to an agreement. Yeah. As long

[33:49] as it's, you know, to certain conditions, certain times of year, that

[33:54] way we don't have to keep bringing you guys out here. as much as we love to see

[33:57] him. [laughter] >> Was

[34:01] this a recent decision to add these two? Because obviously you could have

[34:04] requested it when you came for the original

[34:07] » uh you know um is having I'm the director of student

[34:11] engagement. So um the university is having a bigger push for our home

[34:15] football games to increase engagement both from the community as well as our

[34:19] current students. Um and so last year we built them up a little bit by adding

[34:23] some more events for students. We also have a kids zone at every home football

[34:27] game for community members. And so this year to just make it a little bit

[34:31] bigger, we were just hoping to have fireworks to conclude our first home

[34:35] game um as well as the last home game um that's at nighttime because the

[34:40] university moved our home games um except for homecoming and family weekend

[34:44] to be at 6 p.m. to hopefully have some more engagement um from students in the

[34:49] community. So it's also different because it's a nighttime game.

[34:55] So to your point I think in other words this is actually smaller in terms of the

[34:59] display the phone games >> um versus the RAM route or the the

[35:03] welcome you want to be initially. So I think to your as long as those

[35:07] parameters like maximum up or something like that seems

[35:11] » just wondering approximately what time would the fireworks go off. So, I talked

[35:16] to um Terry Bey, who's the athletics director, and he said probably around

[35:20] 900 p.m. Um, and it would only be for 8 minutes. Okay.

[35:24] » And the community is welcome to attend the game and view the fireworks as well.

[35:28] » Is there any notification I'm sorry, is there any notification that you're

[35:32] required to do to the nearby residents and all?

[35:35] » No, but for best practice, we sometimes put up like yard signs and things in the

[35:40] entrances of the neighborhood. Um, we also monitor social media and I will say

[35:44] for REM rally in some of the Facebook groups, people seem very informed about

[35:48] what was happening. You know, people were saying, "What are the fireworks?"

[35:50] And and people were saying, "Oh, they're to welcome the new students at the

[35:53] stadium." So, I feel like people seemed to know um especially cuz we've done

[35:57] that a couple years, but we do have plans to um have yard signs and say like

[36:01] come to the football game and put them kind of around the neighborhood um

[36:05] particularly around the stadium. But yeah,

[36:08] » uh, understanding the nature of football, sometimes it multiple over

[36:13] times, is it possible to put >> like a time limit as to when they could

[36:19] go up, maybe 10:00, no later than 10:00? >> So, they would I can kind of they would

[36:25] be subject to our noise ordinance provision. So, if that were to happen,

[36:28] the noise ordinance would kick in and would pretty much bar them from doing

[36:32] it. >> All right.

[36:34] Do we have a fireworks provision in our ordinance?

[36:39] » I don't know off the top of my head the fireworks provisions

[36:43] » is that something worth having so that instead of an agreement we have just

[36:48] guidelines or requirements.

[36:56] Like I'm not actually even clear on what the law the state the state law for

[37:00] fireworks is right now and what people are permitted to do as far as fireworks.

[37:04] Who can set them off? When they can set them off. So can anybody set off

[37:08] fireworks? >> No, it depends on what like sparkler

[37:10] type fireworks or definitions in the fireworks law.

[37:13] » So the the ones that like go off. >> Yeah. The ones that they're talking

[37:16] about you have to have a license. >> Yeah. The man has a license. Yeah. And I

[37:19] will say like our purchasing department is extremely thorough and so we make

[37:25] sure that like we give them they won't even put a contract through if we don't

[37:28] have um licenses from the fireworks company and you know

[37:34] » ammunition what's going on >> exactly what's happening. So and COIs

[37:37] and everything like that. So at least on the university side we would never put

[37:41] something out on our end that wasn't like completely legal.

[37:45] » Exactly. >> Okay. So it sounds like we've got two

[37:48] things to do. wanted to review and consider approving this tonight and then

[37:51] also as a followup but she's to try to come up with some language that just

[37:55] kind of sets this as to what would be a normal for you so you don't have to do

[37:59] this every year >> that would be awesome. Yeah, I would say

[38:02] like the welcome back event is a is a time a normal time and then probably

[38:08] these football games, but other than that, we don't normally have anything

[38:11] else throughout the year, but it will be nice, I think, to have something um that

[38:15] we could share with our purchasing department as well because they don't

[38:18] put it through unless we give them the township agreement as well. So, um

[38:24] external. >> Yeah, got us. Okay.

[38:26] » Okay. So, that's a followup quiz for that second item. And then obviously

[38:30] today we're looking at Is there a board member willing to make a motion to

[38:34] approve the request from Westchester University for the use of fireworks

[38:37] during those two home football games on September the 12th and October the 17th?

[38:42] » So just real quick, >> I'll make that motion. Oh, go ahead.

[38:44] » I just wanted to address question. So our fireworks provisions generally

[38:48] mirror the state law and they regulate how far you have to be from like

[38:52] residential dwelling units to shoot them off. But there is no provisions related

[38:56] to noise. So our noise ordinance would default situation. So that would govern

[39:01] it. Um it doesn't say anything about requiring approval from the board. I

[39:06] think that's just been past practice. But they do have permits which we can

[39:09] handle through our special permit process.

[39:11] » Okay. >> Okay. So we have

[39:13] » Sorry about that. >> We have a motion from Tina. Is there a

[39:15] second? >> Second.

[39:17] » Thank you Nate. >> Uh any questions from the board on the

[39:20] motion? Again this is just to approve these two upcoming events September 12th

[39:25] October 17th. Is there any public comments or questions on the motion?

[39:29] Darthy. >> Yeah. Hi, uh Dorothy Verden. I'm a West

[39:32] Ocean resident and I'm also chair of the sustainability advisory committee. And I

[39:37] just want to say that fireworks are very disruptive to animals, to wildlife. And

[39:43] um um unfortunately a lead for my neighborhood with the nextdoor.com

[39:49] app and there are a lot of fireworks. I remember that it was Westchester

[39:54] University, but uh weeks before Fourth of July and for weeks after Fourth of

[40:00] July, they would be set off and they were loud and big fireworks and it would

[40:05] be, you know, 9:30, 10:00, sometimes 10:30, 11:00 at night and uh people

[40:12] would complain in nextdoor.com how their dogs would go crazy, their cats, you

[40:18] know, animals would hide under beds and stuff. So, I just I just want to say

[40:22] that um I wish that you would get like um drones instead of fireworks because

[40:29] [clears throat] they're just noisy. They're disruptive and they're really

[40:32] hard on wildlife and um domestic cats. Thank you.

[40:36] » Thank you, Dorothy. Good comments. Um I mean, I think it's great that you work

[40:41] with us so we know how many are doing and that we we we work with fire

[40:45] marshall and everything else. You know, I think what D is referring to is more

[40:48] presumably individuals letting fireworks off. I don't think there's that many

[40:54] firework events, you know, in the month of June

[40:58] or the month of August. It's just that people have access to these these

[41:02] fireworks. That's my opinion anyway. >> Well, I'm certainly not from Westchester

[41:06] University. >> Exactly.

[41:07] » No. No. >> Okay. Any other comments?

[41:10] » Okay, then we'll take a vote. All in favor say I.

[41:13] » I. Is there any opposition? [clears throat] Motion passes 40. Thank

[41:17] you for your time. >> Thank you very much. Thanks.

[41:21] » Agenda item number six is discussion regarding zoning hearing board

[41:25] application [clears throat] number 11 2026 for Chester County Hospital seeking

[41:29] a variance from section 846786 of the West Ocean Township zoning

[41:34] ordinance. >> Good evening. My name is Elizabeth

[41:38] Whitmer. I'm with the law firm of Sally Euing. I have with me tonight uh Mr.

[41:43] Flickinger from Chester County Hospital. He's the COO of the hospital to answer

[41:49] any questions you have. We're here seeking a variance because we have a uh

[41:55] temporary MRI facility that's right in front of the hospital near the emergency

[42:00] room. Um Chris, if you could go to this picture. I think it's the best one.

[42:09] » Uh one back. There we go. Um, so if you drive past the hospital on Marshall

[42:14] Street, you've seen it because it's surrounded by orange barriers. Uh, the

[42:20] reason that it's there is because there's an incredible demand for MRI

[42:26] services in Chester County. Uh, particularly with uh some of the

[42:31] hospitals closing, a lot of that uh patient population is now served by

[42:36] Chester County Hospital. In 2024, they came to the township and got a temporary

[42:42] permit to have these temporary MRI facilities. While they started a search

[42:48] for where to install them permanently, um they did get one additional uh

[42:55] extension of that temporary permit, which is permitted under your permits

[43:00] ordinance uh 84-67. uh the staff can only approve one

[43:06] extension of the permit and the hospital was unable to find the appropriate

[43:12] location for these MRI facilities. Mr. Flickinger can explain to you first of

[43:19] all the incredible use of this facility, but also why it's not going in the

[43:24] hospital and why they're looking for an appropriate place, a permanent home for

[43:29] these facilities, likely um in a place where they can be easily accessed by

[43:36] oncology practices. MRIs are now used traditionally with oncology practices.

[43:42] Um, and so under your ordinance, because your uh staff can only issue one

[43:49] extension, we actually have to go to the zoning hearing board and get a variance.

[43:53] And we're seeking a variance for two more years. We hope the MRI facility

[43:59] will not be there for the entire two years. And we completely understand that

[44:06] um you know the limit of the extension will be 2 years um for us to find

[44:11] another home. So we're happy to answer any questions you have.

[44:17] » Thank you. Questions from the board. >> I have a question. Why why could the

[44:21] permit only be issued for one year and then one year etc? Why couldn't it be a

[44:25] permanent permit? Is it does it not meet I mean you didn't get variances for this

[44:28] did you? >> No we didn't. We didn't. Why can't it be

[44:31] considered a permanent for as long as you need it to be there? I'm not

[44:34] understanding that from a permit perspective.

[44:37] » It's not a it's not a permanent attachment to the building. Uh they

[44:42] didn't even go through a variance analysis for what it would take to, you

[44:47] know, build what is essentially an extra room.

[44:51] » I don't think they could have issued a zoning permit if it didn't meet zoning

[44:53] requirements. So that's I'm very confused by this application to be

[44:56] honest. >> Well, you already obtained the various

[44:59] » they have. [clears throat] No, she's saying they did not. They don't have

[45:01] variances. They just got a permit. And I guess there's something in our language.

[45:04] The zoning permit's only valid for one year.

[45:08] » Temporary zoning permits are only valid for one year. The zoning officer can

[45:11] extend it for one year to be on temporary structures are designed to be

[45:17] not temporary. So, not fixed or permanent to the property. So Shel's

[45:22] essentially reached the maximum level of her authority under the zoning ordinance

[45:26] and they're still going there to go. I guess what I'm asking is do we know if

[45:29] that was to be considered more permanent? And I know you're saying it

[45:33] doesn't have a foundation, so it's not necessarily a permanent structure, but

[45:36] as far as a permitting, if it meets all of our code requirements, why couldn't

[45:40] it be considered a non-temporary permit? Because what happens in two years, you

[45:44] know, again, I don't want to speak for the board. I don't know if you care

[45:47] about this being like that, but it just seems administratively hassle for you to

[45:52] have to do this. I'm just seeing if there's a way if it if it otherwise

[45:55] beats zoning, why couldn't it be considered a permanent permit?

[45:58] » Well, is it a temporary structure? >> It's a truck. So, yes, it's a it's like

[46:03] a trailer. It's a temporary structure. >> Uh it's it was never intended to be

[46:09] permanent. And um I I haven't analyzed this, but there are other requirements

[46:16] that apply to it, including approvals from the Pennsylvania State Department

[46:21] of Health, which has not approved this as a permanent installation at Chester

[46:25] County Hospital. It will be approved somewhere else. We have identified other

[46:30] locations. We've looked at, you know, the regular suspects for Fern Hill, some

[46:36] of the other medical locations, but uh this MRI is being used, I think, for

[46:42] at least 100 MRIs a week. Um it's basically 247 operation.

[46:50] It will still have really heavy operation elsewhere, but it's not truly

[46:54] appropriate for the hospital because >> it's going to stay in his truck. It's

[46:58] going to stay in a truck or you're looking.

[46:59] » No, we're going to put it in a permanent office allied with one of the likely one

[47:05] of the oncology practices in the county to make it more convenient for oncology

[47:11] patients. But it's not easy to find a location where it's close to the

[47:17] oncology providers and where we can also find the appropriate staff to staff it

[47:22] as long as possible. Um, part of the reason it can operate continuously is

[47:27] because it's at the hospital, but that's not really the goal. The goal is to

[47:31] serve the appropriate patient population, which are the ones who are

[47:35] going to see their oncologist. So, uh, the hospital's been through a surge

[47:41] again. Shane can provide more information about that. We're confident

[47:46] we can do it within the next two years. Frankly, having to do it in 2024 was a

[47:51] little bit of a surprise, but it was because of the incredible increased

[47:56] demand because of the closing of other medical medical facilities in our county

[48:00] and in Delaware County. Uh, and frankly, there's also increased demand. It wasn't

[48:07] used the way they're used today, particularly for oncology.

[48:12] Um, is there anything you'd want to add, Chie? Yeah, I think you know when you

[48:16] look at our demand, we've had year-over-year growth. If you go for I

[48:20] guess here, we've had year-over-year growth. So, if you look in June of 2023,

[48:27] we did uh in that entire 12-month period, 23,343

[48:33] MRIs. In June of this year, we finished at 29,728.

[48:39] Um if you look at our data she mentioned we can do 250 exams a month and right

[48:45] now when you look at it even with this expansion uh our third appointment out

[48:51] which is the industry standard of essentially how you measure your

[48:55] scheduling uh for a noncontrast MRI it's 29 days and for a contrast it's 56.4.

[49:03] So we haven't made a dent. um it has had um profound impacts on our oncology

[49:09] population because MRI has become a a standard uh and is really growing. Um so

[49:16] there's obviously other health systems in the area building ambulatory

[49:20] locations and that is where we have been in our strategic planning process of

[49:23] figuring out where we're going. Uh but we do have identified locations

[49:28] potentially at Fern Hill uh and North Hills which is also adjacent to keep it

[49:34] in here. um plus others in the area. So, we did go to the Department of Health,

[49:39] they granted us three years, we're one year into that um because they too from

[49:44] all of the Pennsylvania Department of Health guidelines have specific

[49:48] guidelines. So, even the roof that you saw here was largely from a patient

[49:52] experience perspective. We were having some um water issues when patients were

[49:57] walking out, but it's tied into our fire systems and otherwise like that. So this

[50:01] is not an ideal situation. Um but we have not had any issues and are fully

[50:07] utilizing it. So we are very confident certainly hope to not still be in this

[50:12] space in two years. Um and we're not looking for a scenario either where we

[50:16] would get a new location and keep it. We're going to keep moving forward.

[50:20] » If you have another facil or find another facility within next year or

[50:23] two, will it also be 247 where the MRI will be utilized for?

[50:28] » So that is very interesting. Um, as much demand as there is, we have

[50:34] actually added weekend hours at some of our locations, but trying to hire people

[50:39] who want to work weekends and nights is quite a feat. No matter how much money

[50:45] you throw at them, but we have expanded on weekends. We will continue to run the

[50:49] hospital until 11:00 at night. We have outpatients that come in until 11:00 at

[50:53] night. That will maintain. What we may do for the community in some of those

[50:57] things is there are lower end MRIs that are quicker. Orthopedic MRIs are

[51:03] quicker. You can cram more of them in which would free up capacity in the

[51:08] hospital. So, we're going to continue to expand and we there's no plans to not be

[51:14] using the hospital until 11:00 at night, but and we're continuing to look at we

[51:19] have expanded. Oxton has tremendous demand. Uh we've also found that

[51:24] patients who live in Axton will wait to have their MRI in accent. Um so we have

[51:29] expanded in different areas and continue to do that but the limitation is um MRI

[51:35] technologists. >> Has been any um accidents or safety

[51:40] incidents near misses with ambulances or you know people traffic in this general

[51:45] area since you had it in operation? >> No, we have not. Um that was certainly a

[51:50] concern going in but we have not had any issues with that.

[51:53] » Okay. If you actually can when you get into that unit you come out under that

[51:57] uh overhang >> you would actually you would come in the

[52:01] back and so the door that comes out into that is the radiology hallway. So you

[52:06] would never actually go outside. There's actually a door there as well on the

[52:11] outside. So it's >> like a little cubicle. And so you come

[52:15] in through the hospital, you have outpatient radiology, and you come in

[52:18] through a hallway. So you're not reporting up through that.

[52:21] » Got it. >> Yes. Thank you.

[52:23] » So I would actually be in favor of supporting this um application and not

[52:27] remaining neutral. I think is incredibly important. Everything you shared here

[52:31] tonight um is shocking. In fact, to hear that there's such demand and that you

[52:37] guys are having to work out of this truck here. Um, so yeah, I would I would

[52:42] support supporting the application. >> I remember when you came for this, I

[52:46] think originally it was during COVID, I believe, was when these hospitals were

[52:49] shutting down and we waved land development and gave you some expedited

[52:53] permitting or something. So sorry, I don't remember the details.

[52:57] » I don't e

[53:01] » that was for an expansion of the emergency room.

[53:04] » Was this part of it though? >> No, this came later. This wasn't it

[53:08] started in 2024 when it became apparent that

[53:12] » and this just went through Shelby. It didn't come to you because it was just a

[53:15] temporary permit. That's >> okay. That's what we that's what All

[53:19] right. Well, actually made a point there is what are the other board members

[53:22] thoughts on that? You want to support this application in front of the zoning

[53:25] hearing board? >> Yes, I support this application. Well

[53:28] needed. >> I agree.

[53:30] » Okay. So, the majority of the board is in favor of not being neutral on your

[53:34] application. the zoning hearing board but in favor of grant the zoning hearing

[53:38] board granting your application. So we can make that known to them.

[53:43] » Yeah. J make a motion and your manager to make a

[53:48] » send a letter in support of it. >> Okay. So let let's get a motion on the

[53:52] table here. Ashley, you want to make a motion?

[53:54] » Yes. I will make a motion to have Chris send the zoning hearing board a letter

[53:59] indicating that the board of supervisors supports this application.

[54:03] » Very good. Thank you. I will second that. Is there any public comment or

[54:07] questions on the motion? >> Yes.

[54:11] » I wanted to thank you for your perspective. I just wanted to comment

[54:14] that I'm a a resident here from Colorado and uh suffer from some pretty severe

[54:20] debilitating sciatica um as a result of unfortunately struggling too much snow

[54:26] in a week there. And um having moved here and trying to seek care for

[54:31] sciatica, having gone down to Pet Medicine in Reder about 3 weeks ago and

[54:36] told the students I could get an MRI because they can't give you any kind of

[54:40] treatment without their own MRI would be the end of September. I ended up in

[54:45] Kennet Square and that was the earliest I could find. And it is incredibly

[54:50] debilitating to be waiting for MRIs for what ultimately will be a diagnosis of

[54:55] like a routine corticost injection in your back. But it's I was shocked to

[55:01] find out that that's that's the time just

[55:06] » thank you for your comment. Anyone else with a question or comment?

[55:09] » Okay, then we'll take a vote. All in favor say I. I. Is there any opposition?

[55:14] Hearing none passes 4. >> I will

[55:20] support the application. >> Thanks Chris.

[55:25] » Okay, we're on to agenda item number seven which is discussion regarding a

[55:29] storm sewer pipe replacement project at 1237 1239 Strasport Road. Chris

[55:39] So,

[55:44] I'll bring up an aerial rendering momentarily.

[55:48] So, before the board this evening is discussion regarding a storm sewer pipe

[55:52] replacement at 1237 1239 Straburg Road uh to provide some background

[55:56] information. The owner of 1237 Strawburg Road contacted the township about a

[56:01] sinkhole in her sidey yard. Uh we provided an aerial outlining pipe

[56:05] location. Uh upon investigation, the hole was roughly uh 2 feet by 2 ft wide

[56:11] and 4t deep. Um and there was a piece of plywood placed over it. Uh the township

[56:16] did go out and place weighted barrels over the plywood for safety reasons. Uh

[56:20] since then, the sinkhole has widened and additional safety precautions have been

[56:24] taken. Uh the hole is in alignment with a storm inlet on Straburg Road, which is

[56:29] a stateowned road. uh then to the back of the residence yard entering a small

[56:34] stream in the Boxeller neighborhood. Uh Mark Burlami, our public works director,

[56:38] reviewed the subdivision plan for that area and it does not show a storm sewer

[56:41] easement for this pipeline. Um as followup, uh Mark contacted the

[56:47] township's assistant [clears throat] highway or the assistant highway manager

[56:51] for this area with the Pennsylvania Department of Transportation. Uh they

[56:54] videotaped the pipe which showed CMP failure along the bottom but stated via

[57:00] email that Pendot would not repair the entire run and also would not consider a

[57:04] joint project with the township. They did say that they would replace the

[57:08] storm grade if needed and authorized the township to proceed with replacement if

[57:12] desired. The inlet box has four pipes entering from the southeast and west

[57:17] directions all coming from the Pendot rightway. The first 20 feet of pipe

[57:21] coming off the inlet box towards the sinkhole is a 24 inch diameter HDP pipe

[57:28] before transitioning to all CMP. In reviewing the video, we did review a

[57:32] video of the of the situation. It appears that the CMP has completely

[57:37] deteriorated as there's a large void after exiting an HDP pipe. Um, we are

[57:42] proposing a replacement of the pipe in this location using the public works

[57:46] department staff. Uh, Mr. Berlami has outlined

[57:51] has outlined the cost if the board were to authorize that. The total estimated

[57:56] cost would be $11,593 for the um for the material needed and

[58:03] would take approximately 2 to 3 weeks to complete. Um it's not anticipated, but

[58:09] if the township's excavator can't cannot dig deep enough, we would need to rent a

[58:13] larger one for $6,000. Um outside of the actual material cost,

[58:18] there would also need to be there would also be an easement prepared. Um Carol

[58:23] Engineering has provided a scope of work to prepare the necessary easement. Um

[58:27] which would be at a cost of $4,68. We have spoken with the property owners,

[58:32] both of whom would [clears throat] be amanable to granting an easement to the

[58:35] township. Um, and I want to let the board know that the prices do not

[58:39] include the cost of repairing the proposed plan set outlining the pipe

[58:43] design and erosion and sedimentation controls. Um, and speaking with Shawn

[58:48] Daniels at Carol Engineering, he said that that would be fairly simple and

[58:51] would probably take a day or two to complete. Um, and our assistant public

[58:55] works director, Mike Kakabo, is here tonight to answer any questions that the

[58:58] board may have. And I will bring up the aerial image that I referenced

[59:01] momentarily.

[59:09] So this is the image of both properties. 1237 Straussburg Road is indicated on is

[59:16] indicated on the um on the right hand side outlined in red. The pipe is

[59:21] outlined in green. As you can see, it runs back and it discharges to the

[59:24] stream area on the rear of the property. The inlet boxes are the green rectangle

[59:29] shown um and the inlet area is shown on Straussburg Road. Um the lot the

[59:35] property boundary is generally where the pipe is. So it extends a little bit into

[59:41] the area to be surveyed sends it a little bit into the neighboring

[59:43] property. >> So which portion does Pendot own?

[59:49] » They so they own the entire right of way of Straburg Road. So essentially from

[59:55] this right about where this inland box is

[59:59] like this white line here to this white line here. So that's PennDOT's right

[1:00:04] » and the rest is us. >> Well, the rest is priv the rest is

[1:00:07] private property. But we've taken the opinion that through guidance that if D

[1:00:13] were to come were to come to the township, it' ultimately say it's our

[1:00:16] responsibility because it's taking discharge from a public roadway and then

[1:00:20] discharging it into a water in the Commonwealth.

[1:00:24] And where we've had issues with CMP pipe failures or potential failures or we've

[1:00:28] done lining projects, we've run lining across in pipe that extends into private

[1:00:33] property as part of that repair. Correct.

[1:00:36] » That's correct. >> He videoed the part of the pipe that

[1:00:39] belongs to Pendot. >> Correct. So we videoed Well, I believe

[1:00:44] Mike might correct me if I'm wrong. Pendot did the video. Correct.

[1:00:47] » They were there with us. We video camera.

[1:00:48] » Okay. So we did it with Penn Dot along with us. Okay.

[1:00:52] » Yes. in the pipe that's in there right away.

[1:00:54] » Correct. >> And they're not paying anything about

[1:00:56] it. >> And they're not paying for it. They

[1:00:58] never Why are they allowed to do that? >> Because they're pend

[1:01:03] letter they signed in 2008 that said any of the drainage facilities and pend

[1:01:06] roads is the township responsibility. You have to be the permit. So they just

[1:01:11] that regulates that. >> No.

[1:01:14] » No. It's uh >> not then who regulates them

[1:01:17] » and who you go to for that? pens will be regulated, I would assume, by the state

[1:01:21] legisl.

[1:01:25] » So, is there any I mean, I don't want to get into the weeds in this, but it's

[1:01:29] crazy to me that PENDOT isn't responsible for repairing their storm

[1:01:33] pipe >> or they're not

[1:01:37] » not something that's >> and they're not liable if it causes an

[1:01:39] accident. >> That's not what we're saying.

[1:01:42] » But would they be? I mean, I think that they would. that there's sovereign

[1:01:44] immunity and then there's exceptions to sovereign immunity and whether or not a

[1:01:47] failed pipe that they knew about they probably could be but it would have to

[1:01:51] be within the boundaries of the land that they own.

[1:01:55] » It's a similar situation to the storm water facilities that were installed in

[1:01:58] the West Coast shopping center Pike uh for the redevelopment that was done.

[1:02:03] They had to we had to sign off that for them.

[1:02:08] » Is it worth ever pushing back and saying they're not going to change? Ashley,

[1:02:12] you're not the first municipality to try to get

[1:02:14] » I'm not saying we're the first, but I'm saying that we should.

[1:02:16] » We have tried. We have tried on I have tried on numerous occasions for numerous

[1:02:20] municipal clients to get Pendot to take responsibility for failing durish

[1:02:23] credits within Pendot rights away. You will not get them to change. You're

[1:02:26] welcome to try again and you can go on record.

[1:02:29] » I just I don't I don't like accepting those sorts of status quos.

[1:02:35] I'm sorry. I just I I don't like that. And I don't think that saying rolling

[1:02:40] over and saying, "Okay, well, if you're not gonna pay for it, I guess without

[1:02:43] pushing back a little bit." >> Yeah. Then you get the D that's going to

[1:02:47] say the township, if you're allowing private pipes to go through private

[1:02:50] property that comes from public road, township, you're responsible as part of

[1:02:54] your MS4 permit. That's what D is going to tell you.

[1:02:56] » I know, but it's Penn's pipe that's corroded. They're not going to tell you

[1:03:00] it's pending. >> Well, we don't go to the private lane.

[1:03:05] » That it's a question because we don't the these subdivision plans were

[1:03:09] approved before anybody did what we do now where we identify where the pipes

[1:03:14] are located, who owns it, and who's responsible to maintain it. They didn't

[1:03:18] do that when these subdivisions went in place. So, I get these questions

[1:03:21] literally weekly and they're like, Kristen, who owns the pipe? I don't

[1:03:24] know. Let's go back to the plan. Doesn't say anything. So then we look at, okay,

[1:03:27] who owns the road where the pipe is? Panda. Well, Panda say they own that

[1:03:31] pipe? Probably not. It's now going through a prior property owner who

[1:03:35] bought it not maybe with no knowledge the pipe was there with nothing on a

[1:03:39] note on a deed or a subdivision plan that says they're responsible. So then

[1:03:43] you go to the D and they'll say it's part of your municipal storm sewer

[1:03:47] system. It's collecting storm water from inlets and public roads. Township, you

[1:03:51] are ultimately responsible. So I'm not saying you can't go back to PNDOT. I

[1:03:56] think that what you what what you're gonna find is they're going to tell you

[1:03:58] they're not going to do anything about it. So then you have a property owner

[1:04:01] who's having coming to you saying help me. You know, it's a larger issue than a

[1:04:06] single private property owner can handle and it's a policy decision. You guys

[1:04:09] have no >> $17,000 problem that involves PenBBOT

[1:04:13] and they're refusing to take any responsibility for that. And I'm sorry.

[1:04:17] I just think that that's wrong. >> Hey, this may not be the last one.

[1:04:20] » No, it's not the first one. It won't be the last.

[1:04:22] » It's not It's not It's not the first one. And I can tell you it will not be

[1:04:25] the last one. >> Just so I'm cleared by that,

[1:04:28] » the this existing 24 in HDP pipe that was put in, did Pend put that piece in

[1:04:34] and then not fix the rest of the pipe? >> They just fix what was in there right

[1:04:38] away. They just put that >> They did that recently.

[1:04:40] » I don't know if they did that recently. >> I don't know when they did that.

[1:04:43] » I'm not sure when they replaced it, but they did replace their first piece in

[1:04:46] there right away. Tied into the CNP. So I'm not sure what the connection looks

[1:04:50] like there from the HTV to the CN. So, >> so they replaced

[1:04:55] » just what was in there right away. That was it. Just some

[1:04:58] » When was that? >> I don't I have to go back and check. I'm

[1:05:00] not sure when they replaced it. >> We've taken responsibility for their

[1:05:05] talk to find out tomorrow when it was replaced.

[1:05:08] » Okay. Well, I think that's useful information because if they've already

[1:05:10] taken responsibility of pipes that are in their rightway, then why can't we

[1:05:14] turn it around and say this is also in your right way? At least rest of it.

[1:05:18] » No, I'm talking about their piece. I'm just talking about their piece. So,

[1:05:22] Mike, did they when they replaced their their piece penda,

[1:05:28] did they hook it into the non-existing collapsed corrugated pipe?

[1:05:33] » I believe they tried to make a connection to the CF.

[1:05:36] » That's my point. Yeah. So, obviously it failed because there's no pipe there to

[1:05:40] connect into. >> Well, like I said, it's just totally

[1:05:42] corroded, right? >> So, there's voids everywhere. There's a

[1:05:44] huge thing on our property. So, >> so it sounds like it would be our

[1:05:48] responsibility. They they replaced their portion, but they couldn't have anything

[1:05:54] to connect it to. >> So, we don't know what the connection

[1:05:56] looks like. We have to get in and see what it looks like. We might, if we do

[1:05:58] get the project, just might rip out their portion and reconnect because we

[1:06:01] might not make a watertight connection on the box,

[1:06:03] » right? The size is different. >> I'm not sure what they did in there. So,

[1:06:06] we get in. >> Yeah.

[1:06:09] » Well, it's only like 20 ft though that section.

[1:06:11] » Uh, I believe so. Yeah. 15 or 20 ft is what this we call six that they found or

[1:06:15] whatever. >> Okay.

[1:06:18] So my couple of questions. So the um the 180 ft that's mentioned in the the note

[1:06:25] here from Chris that extends this from the Stratsburg Road right away all the

[1:06:29] way through to the back of the property >> to where it daylights. Yes. Correct.

[1:06:32] » And that that is the existing run of CMP that is in place that has failed.

[1:06:36] » Correct. It discharges it to the stream back there.

[1:06:40] » And what would the discharge point look like at the stream bank? What would we

[1:06:43] what are you proposing? >> So that's what we need to figure out. I

[1:06:45] would ask if we would put a head wall back there or we just keep it coverage

[1:06:48] and put rip wrap or river rock around it and have it just daylight out there into

[1:06:52] the rip wrap and then into the creek bed.

[1:06:55] » There's a lot of debris back there that we have to maneuver around trees and

[1:06:59] stuff stumps and things like that. So we have to clear a little area back there.

[1:07:03] » And where exactly is a discharge effluent? uh right at the end of the

[1:07:06] where the tree line is right in the creek there behind valley where spray

[1:07:10] valley circle is the creek right between there between those trees and then that

[1:07:15] outlets under Ellis Lane into like the head wall that east co just replaced

[1:07:19] maybe a couple years ago through Ellis >> so this is the end

[1:07:24] » it's just daylight right there's no head wall just the pipe comes out with the

[1:07:26] coverage on top of it so the stream there flows to the right through that

[1:07:31] wooded area right >> down towards Ellis

[1:07:35] Yeah. And then in terms of Strasburg Road, how can you just explain how many

[1:07:40] Chris, if you could go back to Strasburg Road, could you explain how many inlets

[1:07:42] feed into that? You identified the three on here, but you said there's there's

[1:07:46] four connections in [music] total. >> So, yeah. So, they're in line with

[1:07:49] there's a pipe that runs under the resident's driveway to the uh box in

[1:07:54] question. So, I believe there's like an old swale there. So, there's a pipe

[1:07:56] buried there that I believe picks up the ground water and then that pipe bundles

[1:08:00] it into the box here. Then, it goes out the stream.

[1:08:02] » Okay. So that's to the west of that. >> Yes. That's correct. That pipe runs

[1:08:07] under that driveway there, which would probably be looking at this ending

[1:08:11] that's right away as well. So >> So would the homeowner be responsible

[1:08:16] for the lateral, the cost for the lateral to be put in to connect to the

[1:08:20] main just like we do with the sewer? >> No, it's not a sewer. It's just there's

[1:08:24] no main. There's no >> So it's all one pipe.

[1:08:26] » It's just all pipes. It's just connection of pipes.

[1:08:29] » I don't know where Pendock fixed the pipe. Is it was it

[1:08:34] record? >> It's generally if I'm looking at

[1:08:37] » do your cursor where they fixed it. >> I'm looking at what Mike provided.

[1:08:46] » I think it's generally my correct is generally in this area. Correct.

[1:08:51] » So right from Yeah. from the storm inlet from the road pretty much to their right

[1:08:55] away wherever they ended. However much pipe they pulled out of there. I'm not

[1:08:58] sure how much how long that pipe run was that they pulled out. I can verify.

[1:09:02] » They went underneath the road. >> They went from Can you do

[1:09:05] » just from the box? Just from the box out to the to the existing CNP.

[1:09:09] » No, right. I think it's right here at the tour property was the right way.

[1:09:12] » From their box. Yeah. >> To Yeah. From their rightway. So, it's

[1:09:15] only like 15 ft probably from the inlet box that they replaced.

[1:09:22] » Well, that was nice of them. >> Mike, what did you also in this quot you

[1:09:28] have a driveway replacement? Partial driveway replacement. might be

[1:09:31] necessary. What What's that about? >> So, where you see the car sitting where

[1:09:34] they have like a jut out there on the existing driveway. Uh we would need to

[1:09:38] obviously get the excavator in there if we were digging. So, we might have to

[1:09:41] rip up their >> I guess it's just I guess it's just a

[1:09:45] gravel drive. I haven't been down there, but I believe it's a gravel driveway

[1:09:49] that we might just have to sit on top of and dig up and prepare when we're done.

[1:09:56] » Other questions from the board? So what's the ask here tonight?

[1:10:02] So based on the cost estimates

[1:10:07] 11 the 11,000 plus the six plus the 4,000 for engineering plus some time

[1:10:14] materials you're looking

[1:10:20] » plus cost to repair >> plus yeah um if the board would

[1:10:24] authorize $25,000 I think that could cover

[1:10:34] I just, you know, to Ash's point, do you try to go to your state reps and learn

[1:10:38] the situation and condition and say, especially in situations where they fix

[1:10:42] a pipe, but then just let it go into a pipe that's corroded. What was the point

[1:10:45] of that? All it was was to get it off of their rightway, say, "Okay, now it's no

[1:10:49] longer on our problem. It's on your private property. You deal with it."

[1:10:52] » Well, that's consistent with how you described pendway.

[1:10:55] They'll fix it. It's not there right away. It's on someone else.

[1:10:58] » It is. But yeah, >> I think Kristen raises a good point that

[1:11:01] if we put pressure through our state senator and state representative, then

[1:11:06] maybe that could help with the broader situation.

[1:11:10] » And you're not proposing to wait until that happens, are you? You're you're

[1:11:13] proposing to go to your legislator, pay for this, and then go to your

[1:11:17] legislators for reimbursement. Is that correct?

[1:11:19] » Well, no, not go for reimbursement. just to explain if we get reimbured that

[1:11:23] would be fantastic but try and get them because like I said this is not going to

[1:11:26] be the last one of these situations that we run into.

[1:11:29] » No but I I could see that taking years also and don't want to address this

[1:11:33] problem now. >> Yes.

[1:11:36] Proceed with that option >> option later.

[1:11:38] » The problem is it's not historical records to identify who put the pipe in.

[1:11:42] » Like I'm curious did the pipe come in when the road was built? Did the pipe

[1:11:46] come in when homes were built? Like who would have put the pipe in?

[1:11:48] » I know. But cannot implicitly accepted some responsibility for the maintenance

[1:11:54] of this pipe or performing maintenance on the pipe

[1:11:57] » within it right away >> within it. Well, no.

[1:12:00] » I think I think the extent of the limits of what they did sounds like it was

[1:12:04] within >> it was on their property.

[1:12:06] » Yeah. I thought that that was just their rightway right there.

[1:12:08] » Yeah, this is their rightway and I thought it was beyond that.

[1:12:12] » No, it's generally partway but not the right way.

[1:12:15] » It's probably 33 ft is the roadway. It's probably 16 and 12. Is that line over?

[1:12:19] Is the right way? >> So generally generally Tesco views the

[1:12:24] white lines here try to mirror the right ofway boundary lines. Um so their right

[1:12:31] of way essentially runs these two white lines here.

[1:12:36] » I just rely upon a chesco map. >> I don't think that penot I don't think

[1:12:40] that penot can now disclaim that pipe. I think they've already

[1:12:45] accepted responsibility for it and I think it is worth pushing back on PENDOT

[1:12:50] and yeah looping in our our legislators. >> Yeah, I respectfully disagree that

[1:12:54] PEDOT's going to say they've done anything other than fix what was in

[1:12:57] their rideway. 20 foot se 15T section of HDP pipe is the standard

[1:13:03] to a private property. They were helping the private property out. But isn't the

[1:13:06] pipe in their rightway still >> needing repair?

[1:13:10] » No it doesn't stop. Well, like I don't want to put words in your mouth, but you

[1:13:16] said that you're not sure about the connection point. So, we may have to

[1:13:19] replace that. >> We're not sure till we get in there. I'm

[1:13:21] not sure what they made to the box to the CN pipe typically like

[1:13:27] grid to connect, which we don't want to do because it's not sealed up.

[1:13:31] » It sounds like we need more information on exactly what I have to figure out

[1:13:35] what Pend did, when they did it, >> figure out the section that they

[1:13:38] replaced. So, I can get that to you tomorrow.

[1:13:40] » We need to address this problem. I'm not saying that we let this carry on

[1:13:44] forever, but you know, so I don't know. >> So what information we requesting? Like

[1:13:50] » where the wipers replaced >> do

[1:13:54] plans? Do they have plans that showed the work that they did?

[1:13:58] » Yeah. Public records. >> We'll find it. I'll do some digging

[1:14:01] tomorrow. >> What did the CP?

[1:14:04] » Well, the CMP was probably put in when the subdivision was done that created

[1:14:07] those lots. >> So what was the subdivision?

[1:14:11] We looked at the subdivision plan. You guys reached out to me about

[1:14:14] » in like the 80s, >> I think. So,

[1:14:17] [clears throat] plans

[1:14:19] » and kind of what Kristen was saying, unfortunately, the subdivision plans

[1:14:22] that were done prior were not as detailed as they are now.

[1:14:26] » They didn't even show they didn't even show easements.

[1:14:29] » Correct. >> Or pipers for that matter.

[1:14:33] » I mean, so the question is what do we do? What is the desire of the board as

[1:14:37] it stands with this current situation? I totally understand. you know, talking to

[1:14:41] our state legislators relating to and but we do have a situation right now

[1:14:45] with a sinkhole on this property and looking to do something with it.

[1:14:53] » Well, I think we should fix the sinkhole. I mean, it's it's a safety

[1:14:56] hazard. You know, you've got people who could get seriously hurt with it. I know

[1:15:00] it's on private property, but you know, this is in a kind of total gray area

[1:15:04] like a lot of these other things to Kristen's point where no one's going to

[1:15:07] take responsibility for this. you know, it's coming off a public roadway is the

[1:15:11] where the discharge comes from. So, I think, you know, it's okay to ask to get

[1:15:16] more information, but you're going to get information that basically says,

[1:15:18] "Look, we fixed it on this date. We made the best connection we could to the box

[1:15:21] and we put the standard piece of pipe in. That's it. That's the kind of answer

[1:15:24] you're going to get, I think." And then you we're right back here in two weeks

[1:15:28] saying, "Okay, we're ready to approve it." So, I don't feel there's going to

[1:15:32] be any different outcome from other than that. And since I feel it needs to be

[1:15:36] addressed, I would be supportive of trying to move this forward tonight. Do

[1:15:40] other members of the board feel that way or not?

[1:15:42] » I do. >> I'll make a motion.

[1:15:46] » Tina, that's your view. >> Yes, I think we should proceed tonight

[1:15:49] from a safety standpoint. >> Okay. So, for a board member to make a

[1:15:54] motion to authorize uh storm sewer pipe replacement project

[1:15:58] at 1237 1230 road in a not to exceed amount of 25

[1:16:04] » $25,000. >> So, I'll make that motion.

[1:16:07] » Thank you. Is there a second? >> I'll second.

[1:16:09] » Okay. >> We'll still want the answer to the

[1:16:12] question, Mike. But sounds like we're willing to move forward with it. So,

[1:16:15] we'll we'll take a vote here in a minute. Uh any public comments or

[1:16:20] questions on the motion? >> Okay, then we'll take a vote. All in

[1:16:24] favor say I. I. There. Any opposition hearing? None. The motion passes 40.

[1:16:34] All right. Thank you, Mike. We appreciate it. And uh good luck getting

[1:16:37] some more information on it. >> Please share it with Chris and the board

[1:16:43] when you when you get the answers. >> Thanks.

[1:16:47] » Okay. Agenda item number eight is discussion regarding a proposal from the

[1:16:51] sustainability advisory committee for enhancement to the entrance to the West

[1:16:54] Coast Community Park. >> Chris, uh Mr. Chairman, before the board

[1:16:59] this evening is a proposal from the sustainability

[1:17:02] advisory committee to undertake the native planting enhancement to the

[1:17:05] entrance of West Ocean Community Park. Uh the project would also include a rain

[1:17:09] garden installation near the entrance. Uh Nick uh Nick Daniela from the

[1:17:14] sustainability advisory committee has prepared exhibits and a plant list for

[1:17:18] the board's consideration. Um please be advised that Mr. Dell presented this

[1:17:23] plan to the park and recreation board at their meeting in June who unanimously

[1:17:27] voted to recommend the project. Additionally, he's worked with our

[1:17:30] public works director and assistant public works director, both of whom

[1:17:33] support the project. If approved by the board, the plan would be to complete the

[1:17:37] installation in the fall using the public works department staff and I will

[1:17:40] bring up the plans momentarily that we're do have representatives. We do

[1:17:44] have Nick, Dorothy, and Ryan from the sustainability advisory here this

[1:17:48] evening to answer any questions that the board may have.

[1:17:51] » Great. And I believe that the total plant material cost and correct me if

[1:17:55] I'm wrong was $2,400. Is that correct? >> Generally, yeah. And based off other

[1:18:00] projects, the building pricing from those, but could fluctuate slightly.

[1:18:05] » So, this this is the plan for the entrance area. And I'll note that when

[1:18:09] they reviewed this, Mark specifically liked this plan because of the low

[1:18:13] maintenance options that were installed. Um, so this is what the plan would look

[1:18:17] like for the entrance area. And then Nick, if you want to highlight anything

[1:18:21] or go over anything, then I'll bring up the rain garden plan.

[1:18:24] » Uh, it's pretty straightforward. I mean, it's all native plants, so obviously

[1:18:27] ecologically beneficial versus what's there currently. Um, also help with

[1:18:32] » [clears throat] >> erosion in that area. And, um, we made

[1:18:36] sure to keep plants near the entrance way short for uh, for sight paths for

[1:18:41] people coming going coming out of there, being able to turn. Yeah, I think

[1:18:44] everything in this plant should stay around 3 ft or less. So, it shouldn't

[1:18:48] obstruct drivers as they're going out to uh onto the road there.

[1:18:53] » Is there is there high maintenance on these this plan?

[1:18:56] » So, all these plants will will fill in pretty good, too. Um but yeah, it'll be

[1:19:02] pretty low maintenance. They'll be a tiny bit initially just installing

[1:19:05] everything. >> With the native plants, it's better to

[1:19:07] kind of leave them untouched all year. They'll produce seeds. Birds will come

[1:19:11] in the winter time, eat them. Um, from a maintenance perspective, if anything,

[1:19:15] come in the spring, cut everything down to the ground and let it regrow.

[1:19:19] » And the 25 thou 2500, were we looking to take that out of the SEC over the

[1:19:25] general fund? Oh, you were. [clears throat] Okay.

[1:19:27] » So, I think there's like 5,000 and that, wasn't there?

[1:19:29] » Something around there. So, like I said, it's flexible little bit. Yeah, we can

[1:19:34] make it if we need to. >> So, you said to the post, you won't need

[1:19:38] to mulge this area. have grown in and spreads together so well they won't need

[1:19:44] much weeding maintenance do you think? >> Yeah, I mean there's going to be a

[1:19:46] probably a tiny bit initially especially if we're digging up what's there.

[1:19:49] There's a decent amount of weeds there currently. So there's probably some weed

[1:19:53] seeds in seed bankank that once we disturb that'll come up a little bit but

[1:19:56] it should be pretty minimal and after the first year um should be just about

[1:20:00] nothing. So >> do you need to fortify the soil there

[1:20:03] with some fresh soil you think? >> Nope. The stuff likes like like Yeah. If

[1:20:08] you get too good of soil, the stuff gets a little little floppy. So yeah, crappy

[1:20:13] soil. >> Is the S gonna be planting though?

[1:20:17] » Uh in partnership with public works. So we've been just Yeah, we've discussed

[1:20:22] it. So we'll partnership with it. Yeah, we'll get it done this fall. everybody's

[1:20:28] » I presume this is consistent with the park's strategic plan in terms of adding

[1:20:33] some native species and some some beds etc to the community park.

[1:20:38] » Yeah. And it's good too. I mean obviously you know get hopefully some

[1:20:42] public interaction with that kind of thing too and maybe you get people plant

[1:20:46] some of those things in their own yards too. So

[1:20:49] » you have any signage as to what it is so that people can look at it and say oh

[1:20:52] that's what that >> we certainly can. Yeah. And there's a

[1:20:55] number of manufacturers that make standard ones and we can always run

[1:20:57] those by the wall as well. Um, but they're pretty straightforward ones. You

[1:21:00] can get just put them on something nice. You not just stick them in the ground,

[1:21:04] but you can get like a little wood post form or something like that. But those

[1:21:07] are pretty easily accessible. >> Excellent. And I'll bring up the rain.

[1:21:24] So these are the rain garden plans. So our would be off of the uh parking lot.

[1:21:30] » Yeah. So the basis behind this is um so I actually walk up the park every day at

[1:21:34] lunch cuz I work nearby and anytime it rains a ton of water collects and just

[1:21:39] sits in the middle of the grass area here. It's just like lawn grass that the

[1:21:43] water is not infiltrating at all. Um and there's actually a notch in the curve

[1:21:48] there where the parking lot meets the grass area where it just washes the soil

[1:21:52] out. You can actually see it from the Earth view. So, we wouldn't try to

[1:21:56] mitigate any erosion coming out there. >> Is it like is it like this area here?

[1:22:01] » No. Well, I like a scoured channel. >> I drew over it with this, but there's a

[1:22:06] channel that runs right through from that outlet pipe. Um, goes straight

[1:22:10] towards the parking lot. You can actually see like you pull it up, you'll

[1:22:13] see soil in the parking lot coming from there. So, we want to make sure that

[1:22:18] water goes down back into the ground instead of into the parking lot.

[1:22:23] And again, we've worked with with public works on this and gone over what's going

[1:22:27] to be required. Um, so it'll be another joint project between the two of us.

[1:22:33] » Is there any chance down the line of expanding that far?

[1:22:37] » Sure. Yeah. I mean, this is just like an initial plan. Um, and it should take

[1:22:42] care of essentially the erosion issue that we're having, but if we

[1:22:45] [clears throat] want to expand this, it's essentially infinite possibilities

[1:22:49] in that area. just pawn grass that we can I'd be more than happy to rip that

[1:22:53] up.

[1:22:56] » The uh the river birds you planning to put in, how how tall is a 5 gallon

[1:23:02] river? >> Um generally about 5 to 6 feet tall. Um

[1:23:05] [clears throat] again depend on availability

[1:23:08] » availability and like if we had to have a little extra money you can always get

[1:23:11] something a little bit more develop but that's a good size to put in. Don't put

[1:23:14] anything too big or else >> let's get something that's substantive

[1:23:17] to start with and not just a sapling that takes 20 years to get going.

[1:23:21] » Yeah, this is going to be something where it's going to start doing it job

[1:23:23] on day one. So, a river birch too will grow multiple feet a year in ideal

[1:23:28] conditions and being in a storm basin is it can get outside of being next to a

[1:23:34] creek. So, it should shoot up pretty quickly once it starts uh once its roots

[1:23:38] are established. >> Is there any water sources that's needed

[1:23:41] » to water the plants initially? snow. >> If we have a drought in the fall, we

[1:23:46] might need to have public works come and hose them down. But the issue, well, the

[1:23:50] thing is with this area because it collects so much water and there's a so

[1:23:53] where the beginning of it is on the bottom right there, that's the outlet

[1:23:56] drain that comes from the opposite side of the park, there's a ton of water that

[1:23:59] runs through there. So, as long as we're getting like even a little bit of rain

[1:24:03] within a month or month and a half of planting that [clears throat] would be

[1:24:06] fine. So, it would have to have a pretty long drought for it to become an issue

[1:24:10] initially. Then once and same thing with the other with the other plantings. I

[1:24:15] mean all these plants are extremely drought toler. I mean they're native to

[1:24:19] these areas. So they don't they're not going to require any watering or

[1:24:22] anything. Just exhaust fish. >> Super plant everything. No water. No

[1:24:26] nothing. It's good. >> Yeah. I I burchches on my property.

[1:24:30] They're really good plant. [snorts] They're fantastic tree. The one downside

[1:24:33] is they shed branches kind of year round.

[1:24:37] » Well, the nice thing about this area is not really an area where people go. Um,

[1:24:42] so I I don't really see any kind of like safety issues with that. I mean, we can

[1:24:46] always put differences. >> It's not a safety issue. It's just that

[1:24:49] that you need to clean you need to clean it up every now and then because it's

[1:24:52] just sewing branches on the ground. There's little, you know.

[1:24:55] » Yeah. I mean, that's we can talk with Mike about that. Um, I mean, it should

[1:25:01] be part of routine maintenance. >> Yeah. I don't want to get too deep in

[1:25:03] the woods, but ecologically fallen branches are extremely important for for

[1:25:07] a lot of insects who use dead wood. Um, so we can maybe so they even removing

[1:25:11] those maybe put them keep them in the area.

[1:25:15] » Yeah. And that'll help help the soil as well. So,

[1:25:18] » very good. >> All right. Sounds like a great project

[1:25:20] to me. Is there any other questions from the board?

[1:25:22] » I just want to see Mike, do you have any thoughts, comments, questions?

[1:25:26] » Uh, no. Just I guess like uh are you guys going to be picking up the plant

[1:25:29] material or are they tagging everything? Are they going to deliver?

[1:25:32] » So, um, the way I've done this in the past is I'll I'll put I can put the

[1:25:36] order in. have everything ready to be picked up and then if you guys just have

[1:25:39] like a rack truck or a box truck or something like that or

[1:25:43] » they can also deliver it to the site. >> Yeah. Well, we can talk about that and

[1:25:48] tomorrow's good too. I forgot to >> Yes.

[1:25:51] » But regardless, we'll be able to get them there.

[1:25:53] » Okay. We can figure everything out like the delivery of the river rock, right?

[1:25:57] Everything. Okay. >> Yep.

[1:25:58] » Yep. >> Yeah. We're good.

[1:26:01] » Okay. So, I'm looking for a board member to make a motion to uh approve the

[1:26:06] proposal from the SACE for the plant enhancements to the entrance to West

[1:26:11] Coast Community Park in a not to exceed amount of 2500.

[1:26:17] » I'll make that motion. >> Is there a second?

[1:26:21] » Second. >> Thank you, May. Any public comments or

[1:26:23] questions? Yes. I just wanted to know if you considered,

[1:26:28] you know, something with more seasoned portion of interest like siduish like it

[1:26:32] or something like that that you have a lot of

[1:26:34] » so yeah so in the back part of that we have proposed a red wig dogwood

[1:26:40] » um so there's your four season shrub there we have it as an option but we

[1:26:44] also could do button bush we could do cla we can do all sorts of

[1:26:48] » maybe for f future projects just to save money I was thinking if you had a

[1:26:52] relationship with sport or Longwood or Shand Clear. Um, you know, they had

[1:26:58] enormous green houses. I mean, Sworthmore has

[1:27:02] enormous rain garden. Longwood has, you know, unable amount of plants and, uh,

[1:27:08] Shanta literally grows my plants. Um, and I'm just wondering if in the future

[1:27:15] you could establish a relationship with them since this is a public project and

[1:27:20] you know >> especially if there's like an

[1:27:23] educational component where you're like this is a butterfly garden or rainwater

[1:27:27] garden. Um, and in in exchange for educating the communities um you know

[1:27:33] most of these places have an incredible educational aspect to their to their

[1:27:39] missions. They would donate to [clears throat] I can't imagine that in

[1:27:43] this area where you have so many gardens Morris and Swathmore and Jenkins and you

[1:27:49] know >> No, that's a good point. In fact,

[1:27:52] » I think some contributions. >> I think one of the earlier projects that

[1:27:55] the SACE did >> very very early on we got um a local

[1:28:00] nursery to to provide a few trees for us to use. So that's a really good idea.

[1:28:04] So, for example, like if you get away from the birch as to your point of they

[1:28:08] they shed branches constantly. If you went after like Joe Wilson Magnolia,

[1:28:14] Longwood has probably hundreds of those. I can't imagine how many they have in

[1:28:19] their green houses. You know, they grow quickly. They love water. They're four

[1:28:23] seasons in Tristan. They bloom in the summer, etc., etc., you know. So, I'm

[1:28:26] just saying it's I think you have options because of just the wealth of

[1:28:30] horicultural centers in this area.

[1:28:33] » Yeah. Great point. So, I'm just going to look to the SEC members to take that

[1:28:38] suggestion on board and decide how you might want to reach out and do that for

[1:28:42] future projects. >> Yeah, there's normal organizations like

[1:28:45] PA invasive replace it program where if you remove invasive plants, which is

[1:28:49] what we're going to be doing at these places and you submit them and you get

[1:28:52] free trees out of it. Um, the reason why I have this schedule the way I do is

[1:28:57] just to make sure that what we're putting there is substantial. A lot of

[1:29:00] the things you get donated are, like you were saying, saplings and things like

[1:29:04] that, which would be great for other parts of the site, but I want to make

[1:29:06] sure that when we're getting this in, it's a statement, especially and it's

[1:29:10] ready to go. So, >> any budget has you have a budget for it.

[1:29:14] So, >> correct. Might as well use it. But yeah,

[1:29:16] for sure. I mean, free plan would be great.

[1:29:19] » Thank you. Is there any other comments for questions?

[1:29:23] » Okay, then we'll take a vote. All in favor say I. I. Is there any opposition?

[1:29:27] Hearing none. Motion passes 4 Z. Agenda item number nine is

[1:29:34] discussion and possible approval of a conservatorship petition for 726 East

[1:29:39] Gay Street. [clears throat]

[1:29:43] » East or west? >> Uh it's

[1:29:47] east, right? >> Yes, it is East Gay Street.

[1:29:49] » Thank you. >> That was that was my error on the

[1:29:51] initial. >> Okay. So before the board of supervisors

[1:29:55] this evening is consideration of the filing of a conservatorship petition for

[1:29:59] a property at 726 East K Street. This is the location of the former Boston Market

[1:30:04] restaurant. The building suffered a significant fire in December 2024. Since

[1:30:09] that time there has been no movement on addressing the situation by the property

[1:30:13] owners. The township has had to pay to secure the property on certain occasions

[1:30:18] and uh we have been reimbured for some of these costs. The zoning officer has

[1:30:24] filed 54 non-traffic citations in district court for violations of the

[1:30:28] property maintenance code. If approved this evening by the board,

[1:30:33] Carl Ewire would serve as the township's legal council and the petition proposes

[1:30:38] that BDP impact real estate would serve as a conservator.

[1:30:43] Please be advised that we believe this is will be a fairly expedited process

[1:30:48] and reviewing [clears throat] information available. There do not

[1:30:50] appear to be any environmental impacts on the property, for example, water

[1:30:54] courses or flood hazard area and we will be able to file the petition in short

[1:30:59] order. Chris,

[1:31:02] » have you any other comments on the web this uh this evening?

[1:31:07] » Uh no, Mr. Chairman. Um just that this would meet the requirements under the uh

[1:31:12] blighted properties act. Unfortunately, Mr. Eld was unavailable to attend this

[1:31:15] evening. Um but he's prepared to he's prepared to petition um which follows

[1:31:21] the standard procedures and he's also provided um a large amount of

[1:31:24] documentation showing the condition of the property and it's been in this

[1:31:28] condition fenced off since it suffered the fire in

[1:31:32] December of 2024. And recently I've seen that there's been graffiti put on it. We

[1:31:39] have a fence we've had to pay to secure it from a fencing perspective. Secure

[1:31:43] the building. We fenced it off after the initial fire occurred and we did get

[1:31:46] paid back for those costs to fence it off. Um, but it is it has not been

[1:31:51] maintained since it went since that occurred

[1:31:56] and we've heard and we have heard nothing about any plans to do anything

[1:32:01] with it. >> Who's the owner?

[1:32:03] » It's owned by >> the owners are deceased. It was the

[1:32:06] husband, wife, and the daughter. The daughter is like 81 years old and we

[1:32:09] have tried >> years ago. We tried because there's

[1:32:12] significant leans against the property and so we were trying to move to collect

[1:32:16] the leans and we made considerable effort to try to find them and locate

[1:32:20] them and ended up not being able to. So I gave whatever information I had to

[1:32:26] Carl Ewald. Um John Izzy leased the property and was going to then start a

[1:32:31] new restaurant. He was going to then subleasase it to somebody for a

[1:32:34] restaurant. There was some permanent activity before the fire. Um he is now

[1:32:38] nowhere to be found as well. So, >> where was he sending his lease payments

[1:32:41] and who was cashing them? >> That presumably is one of the eldest or

[1:32:47] » the the daughter who's 81. >> Is she alive?

[1:32:50] » Yes, she is alive. Does she live in Pennsylvania?

[1:32:52] » She died. >> I don't believe so. I think she lives in

[1:32:55] Colorado.

[1:32:59] » Somewhere. I mean, I have an email from off top of my head, but my parallegal

[1:33:05] handles the lead process. spent considerable amount of time trying to

[1:33:08] locate them and we ended up not finding the location to be able to serve them.

[1:33:12] » Okay. So, the likely outcome here is that if this conservative is approved

[1:33:16] through the court process um that the a demolition would occur and then able to

[1:33:21] move into a property sale. Correct. >> Yeah. I mean, I I called Carl because I

[1:33:26] was concerned of how you make proper service on the owners and they'll have

[1:33:30] to follow whatever proper whatever procedures the law allows when you can't

[1:33:33] make personal service against owners property. So this is a little bit more

[1:33:36] difficult because in the other conservative petition, we knew where the

[1:33:39] property owner was. We were able to make personal service. So there will be a

[1:33:42] little bit more process to have to go through to get court approval to serve

[1:33:46] by publication likely. Um but yes, likely what will happen is once they

[1:33:51] make proper service upon the owners, if they make they're able to do it through

[1:33:54] publication and owners do not know, which we don't expect the owner will do

[1:33:58] anything then. >> So what would the owner need to do if

[1:34:01] they wanted to keep the property? >> Same thing Joe Graph did. come into

[1:34:04] court and try to argue that try to show a plan of rehabilitation of what they're

[1:34:09] going to do which >> given the age of the woman and the fact

[1:34:12] that she's not responded to anything the township's ever tried to do. I don't

[1:34:15] believe she will try to defend this. >> Well, this conservative would be the

[1:34:20] same as um the previous one [clears throat] and that the township

[1:34:23] will not be out of pocket uh as part of any of the costs incurred by Carl and

[1:34:28] the uh conservative company. >> Yeah. I do have a separate engagement

[1:34:32] plan for him for this project. You probably should make sure you get that.

[1:34:35] » Yep. I did talk to Carl about that. >> Okay. So, then it'll outline what you

[1:34:40] owe him. It for the work that he's done to date for the work going forward and

[1:34:44] how he expects to be paid. I think that's important to put that for him to

[1:34:46] put that in. >> If I'm remembering correctly, it was

[1:34:48] written that any sort of any cost that he incurs are paid through paid by

[1:34:53] either the property owner or through the sale of the property. And there's a 20%

[1:34:58] conservative fee. >> Okay. So you you we need that in place

[1:35:03] before we approve this tonight potentially.

[1:35:05] » I think it could be conditioned upon making sure you have that in writing.

[1:35:08] » Okay. >> That you wouldn't authorize him to file

[1:35:11] that until he has sent in that and you guys have given Chris the authorization

[1:35:15] to go ahead and sign that engagement letter.

[1:35:18] » Okay. >> Any other questions from the board?

[1:35:22] » I'll just just so the board is aware. So, in speaking with Carl, his plan is

[1:35:27] to try and do both the initial and final plan hearings all in all at once. And

[1:35:34] the goal is to do demolition and return the property to grass.

[1:35:39] » Okay. Any questions from the board?

[1:35:43] » Yeah. Once the conservatives go through, they demolish, they do all of that. Um,

[1:35:49] they the conservatives said try to sell the property. Obviously the owner if it

[1:35:54] comes forth would have first refusal but if they don't come then the conservative

[1:35:59] will sell the property. >> Well the owner retains the ownership of

[1:36:02] the property. The conservator does excuse me the rehabilitative work. So

[1:36:08] the owner it's my understanding that the owner gets presented with a bill for the

[1:36:11] cost for demolition lawyers fees all that if they can't plus a 20% fee right

[1:36:17] » for the conservator. If they cannot pay that, then they're then they sell the

[1:36:21] property in order to sell the propert pay for the cost to do all that was

[1:36:27] done. >> And what if the property is worth more

[1:36:30] than what >> the money

[1:36:33] that you can't find? >> Well, that again this there's going to

[1:36:36] be more to this story. like we can't tell you exactly how this is going to

[1:36:39] play out because in my mind too depending on what rights the tenant had.

[1:36:44] He may still have property interests that may have to be notified of the

[1:36:48] filing as well. So I don't know, we don't know. We're not they don't have a

[1:36:52] requirement to give us copies of leases or to understand what property interest

[1:36:56] John Izzy had as a tenant and then whoever he was leasing to for the

[1:37:01] building. I think that person's walked away. But there definitely is going to

[1:37:04] be other people that may who had property interest in the property that

[1:37:09] want to see something happen there. So, I mean, it's going to be for Carl to

[1:37:14] have to sort through. >> Well, we're going to be like kept

[1:37:16] apprised with all of that, right? Forward. He's going to inform us if he's

[1:37:21] made service and he's having trouble making service.

[1:37:25] » Absolutely. >> Okay. I'll make a motion to approve the

[1:37:30] conservative conservatorship petition for 726 East Gay Street and the uh the

[1:37:36] filing of that uh to the court subject to a an agreement with the township in

[1:37:44] Carl uh proved by Mr. Bashaw

[1:37:49] conditions acceptable to the township. >> Okay. Is that reasonable?

[1:37:54] » Yeah. >> All right. Is there a second?

[1:37:57] » Second. Thank you. Is there any public comments

[1:38:00] or questions on the motion? Very good. We'll take a vote. All in

[1:38:05] favor say I. I. Is there any opposition hearing? That motion passes 4 Z.

[1:38:12] Thank you. Agenda item number 10 is discussion and possible adoption of

[1:38:16] ordinance number 5, 2026, approving amendments to the chapter 60

[1:38:22] pedaling and soliciting the West Ocean Township Code of Ordinances. Kristen.

[1:38:27] » Yes. We presented this at the last meeting. This was something the chief

[1:38:30] asked me to prepare. Chapter 60 is your solicitation ordinance and he was seeing

[1:38:35] an issue with companies basically sending their employees out to do

[1:38:40] without permits. So rather than just hold the person who was doing the

[1:38:45] solicitation without the permit, the chief wanted an ability to actually site

[1:38:49] the company that was sending these people. So, we added a paragraph to

[1:38:53] section 60-1 of your chapter, which states that it's

[1:38:58] unlawful for any person, company, or entity to employ or contract with any

[1:39:03] person to engage in basically the solicitation of goods and services. So,

[1:39:07] that's what's been added to 60-1. We did, because this is part of your

[1:39:11] ordinance, we did have to advertise this part of the meeting as a hearing, and we

[1:39:15] did that in the daily local news on August 24th. And I also sent a copy of

[1:39:20] the ordinance for public inspection to the law library in the daily vocal. So

[1:39:23] it's just adding one sentence to section 60-1. That's the extent of the change.

[1:39:28] » Doesn't it doesn't it say your personal company to engage?

[1:39:33] » It's just being for any person, company or entity to employ or contract with.

[1:39:37] » What came in the factory was up was not the correct language.

[1:39:41] » Yeah, this one says person. Okay. So >> I sort of deleted an updated version

[1:39:46] yesterday. >> Oh, okay.

[1:39:48] [clears throat] Any other questions from the board?

[1:39:52] Okay, I'll make a motion to adopt ordinance number 5, 2026,

[1:39:57] um, amending chapter 60 of the West Coast Township Code. Is there a second?

[1:40:02] » Second. >> Thank you, Nate. Any public comment or

[1:40:05] questions? Okay, we'll take a vote. All in favor say I. I. Is there any

[1:40:09] opposition? >> Hearing none, the motion passes 4.

[1:40:14] Agenda item number 11 is approval of the board of supervisors meeting minutes

[1:40:18] from August the 4, 2026. I provided some typo corrections to

[1:40:23] Chris. Has any other board member had any corrections or changes?

[1:40:27] » Mr. Wman provided me a few corrections and I made all the changes.

[1:40:31] » Okay. Okay. Well, I'll make a motion to approve the the uh board of supervisors

[1:40:35] meeting minutes from August 4th with the changes to myself, Mr. Wman. Is there a

[1:40:39] second? >> I'll second that.

[1:40:41] » Thank you to you. Is there any public comments or questions?

[1:40:44] Okay, we'll take a vote. All in favor say I. I. Is there any opposition?

[1:40:49] Hearing none. The motion passes 40. Item number 12 is approval of the bills

[1:40:55] to be paid. The general fund, the sewer revenue fund, the waste and recycling

[1:40:59] fund, and the capital reserve fund. Does anyone on the board have any

[1:41:03] questions about the bills list?

[1:41:08] Chris, I had a question on check uh 6488

[1:41:15] to MK renovations. I believe you would that has now been addressed correctly.

[1:41:20] » That's correct. >> So this current bill is not going to be

[1:41:23] paid by that check number. >> Well, that yes, that check was issued.

[1:41:27] However, it's going to be in speaking with Mr. Ko, it's going to be returned

[1:41:31] to us and cancelled. >> Okay.

[1:41:35] » All right. Is there any other questions? Okay, I'll make a motion to approve the

[1:41:39] bills to be paid for the funds that I described with that change that uh we

[1:41:43] just discussed. Is there a second? >> I'll second.

[1:41:47] » Any public comments or questions on the bills list?

[1:41:50] » All right, we'll take a vote. All in favor say I. I. Is there any opposition?

[1:41:54] Motion passes 4. I move to a meeting at 7:45. Is there a second? Second.

[1:42:00] » Thank you. All in favor of adjournment say I.

[1:42:02] » I. Thank you everyone.

[1:42:33] Do you touch my

[1:42:51] What do I know? is not sh.

West Goshen Township Board of Supervisors Meeting 09 01 2026

Agenda

Transcript