[0:05] Excellent. Boarding's going. That was my next question.

[0:11] Will we all please rise for a pledge

[0:13] of allegiance and a moment of silence for

[0:14] our military personnel. Thanks for coming. This is

[0:42] the first public meeting following the termination of

[0:44] the sewer contract by the Board of Supervisors.

[0:48] The goal for this meeting is to hear

[0:50] from our sewer contractor, sewer engineer, who is

[0:54] here to talk to us about the studies

[0:56] that we are undertaking, all of us together.

[0:59] A study about tapping fees, capital reserve and

[1:02] a rate study. Are hoping that everybody here

[1:06] will, first of all, thank you for coming.

[1:07] We're hoping everybody will have a comment, question,

[1:11] would like to weigh in at some point.

[1:12] That's the point of this meeting is to

[1:14] involve as much of the public as we

[1:15] can. We are gonna put a time limit

[1:17] on the comments of three minutes. That doesn't

[1:20] mean that you can't raise a second unrelated

[1:22] comment afterwards. We just wanna make sure that

[1:24] it's not soliloquy time as opposed to comment

[1:27] time. So I will with that turn it

[1:30] over to our Township Manager, Shanna Lodge. Absolutely.

[1:34] So and with that, I'm going to introduce

[1:36] two gentlemen from our sewer engineer, which is

[1:40] Carroll Engineering. We have Bill Malin and Mark

[1:42] Yoder here with us this afternoon, evening, whatever

[1:45] it might be. And as is noted on

[1:48] the agenda, they're here to give a presentation

[1:51] regarding the process and scope of the upcoming

[1:53] sewer studies, which the chair just mentioned. We

[1:58] can get more into the, they'll get into

[2:02] the nitty gritty of the scope and how

[2:04] particular studies are conducted and what the purpose

[2:09] of them be. The overall goals of doing

[2:12] these studies, as the board has mentioned in

[2:13] past meetings, are really to move toward ensuring

[2:18] that the sewer system, now that the sewer

[2:21] system is not going to be sold, will

[2:22] be properly and sustainably funded moving forward to

[2:29] make some corrections or moves or etcetera. Following

[2:43] the sale, which obviously, as the chair mentioned,

[2:50] did not proceed. And to move toward more

[2:52] proactive repairs rather than the reactive repairs, which

[2:56] I know people have mentioned in previous meetings.

[2:58] That's certainly another goal, particularly when it comes

[3:00] to capital funding. And finally, to hear from

[3:04] you. Most of you, I imagine in this

[3:07] room are sewer customers. Maybe some of you

[3:09] are interested Township residents. You're certainly welcome here

[3:11] as well. But many of you are probably

[3:14] customers of the sewer system. So this meeting

[3:17] also serves to better understand your concerns and

[3:19] for you to provide some input following the

[3:22] presentation by the engineers of what you'd like

[3:26] to ensure is considered in their study. So

[3:30] with that, I think I'll turn it over

[3:31] to Bill and Mark to speak about the

[3:35] various studies that they'll be undertaking soon. Okay,

[3:40] thank you. I'm Bill Mallon with Carroll Engineering.

[3:43] We're the Township Wastewater Engineer, And we are

[3:48] undertaking as the chair mentioned three studies, three

[3:52] financial studies for the township or the sewer

[3:54] system. So there's tapping fees, capital reserve study,

[3:58] and the rate study. I'll touch a little

[4:01] bit on each one of those, what the

[4:03] scope is, the process kind of reverse from

[4:06] process and scope, and the end goal for

[4:09] everything. So, we'll start with the tapping fees.

[4:13] The tapping fee is a fee township charges

[4:16] to any new connection in the township, it

[4:19] covers the township's costs, monies that they spent

[4:22] to build the system. So it covers capacity

[4:25] Valley Forge Sewer Authority, capacity that was purchased

[4:28] in the Valley Creek Trunk Sewer that conveys

[4:30] everything from the township to Valley Forge Sewer

[4:32] Authority, and all the pipes that the township

[4:35] themselves paid for in the sewer system. Doesn't

[4:38] include anything that a developer built and dedicated

[4:41] to the township, doesn't include any grant money

[4:44] that the township received for construction, so it's

[4:48] basically outlays by the township. And the idea

[4:52] is you build the system, so you have

[4:54] to front load it with funding in order

[4:57] to have a system for people to connect

[4:58] to, and then over time people connect and

[5:01] pay that money back, kind of like a

[5:03] mortgage in a sense. It's only for system

[5:10] capacity, so it doesn't include any repairs, pipe

[5:16] replacements that have been done or will be

[5:19] done over time, unless it's a situation where

[5:21] we had an eight inch sewer and then

[5:23] we determined that we needed a larger pipe,

[5:25] so we put a 12 inches sewer when

[5:26] we placed it, you can include the extra

[5:29] cost for that larger sewer that added capacity.

[5:34] The last time the tapping fee was calculated

[5:36] in the township is 2,007, I believe. The

[5:41] capital reserve study is a study that the

[5:43] township's gonna undertake to establish annual funding to

[5:48] maintain the system. So they want to over

[5:52] time be able to accumulate a reserve fund

[5:55] to cover repairs of the sewers, repairs to

[5:59] the pump stations, repairs if Valley Forge Sewer

[6:03] Authority needs to do repairs at the treatment

[6:05] plant, they have funds to account for that.

[6:08] What we do is basically do replacement costs

[6:12] of all the equipment and pipes in the

[6:16] ground, what the life cycle is. So if

[6:19] a pump has a life cycle of twenty

[6:21] years, it needs to be replaced every twenty

[6:23] years, we build that into every year, we're

[6:25] putting an incremental amount into a fund. So,

[6:28] after twenty years, the money is there in

[6:30] order for the township to replace it. And

[6:33] that's a component that's gonna go into the

[6:35] rate study, so that in addition to just

[6:38] paying the bills, the township's establishing a fund

[6:40] so they can proactively maintain and repair the

[6:43] system, as Shana said, instead of reacting to

[6:48] a failure that costs a lot more money

[6:50] to take care of. And the rates, so

[6:54] the rates is really the heart of it.

[6:56] Obviously for some customers, it's what you pay

[6:59] for the service that you receive. And as

[7:03] I mentioned, includes the capital reserve costs in

[7:08] there. The rate study structure was last revised

[7:11] in 2013. I think there've been maybe some

[7:14] increases since then. We're going to kind of

[7:19] get in the process of this. We're going

[7:21] to look at the entire rate structure and

[7:24] we wanna make sure that it's fair and

[7:26] accurate. So what that basically means is that

[7:31] for customers in the same group, residential customers,

[7:34] you're being charged equally for that service. And

[7:39] that for a user who might have a

[7:41] bigger burden on the system, not to pick

[7:43] on the hospital, for instance, but it's probably

[7:45] the largest customer in the system. If they

[7:47] have a larger burden on the system, they

[7:50] arguably should be charged more than the residential

[7:53] customer. So, we wanna examine it, make sure

[7:57] it's fair, and then make sure then that

[7:59] the rates that are set are covering the

[8:01] authority of the townships costs, including as I

[8:04] mentioned, the capital reserve. And I think just

[8:07] to kind of sum up, as Shana said,

[8:09] the goal is to make sure that the

[8:12] township's sewer funding is sustainable, so that they

[8:20] can provide a good service to you, both

[8:22] in terms of being able to flush the

[8:24] toilet and know that it's gonna go and

[8:26] be taken care of, as well as address

[8:28] your concerns, let me contact the township when

[8:30] Bill Hagen and his guys have to go

[8:32] out and do something, and then when we

[8:34] investigate the system and find out that things

[8:36] need be repaired, that the funding is stable,

[8:41] so the detachment can go do those repairs

[8:43] when we need to depend on and not

[8:45] worry about where the funding's gonna come from.

[8:46] So, I think that covers the studies that

[8:51] we're gonna undertake. Does the board have any

[8:56] questions before we go? I'll touch base on

[9:00] the stand. On the, comment about the equity

[9:05] of residential versus large users. At one time

[9:11] we had a rate structure where residential customers

[9:15] were charged a rate and then customers that

[9:19] were defined as businesses were charged a different

[9:23] rate, and the law allows to create classes

[9:26] of customers of that sort. What we found

[9:30] at the time, now this was some years

[9:32] ago, was that because it was modeled on

[9:36] the way the water supplier, Aqua, structured their

[9:44] rates, there was actually, the more you use

[9:48] beyond a certain point, you actually end up

[9:50] paying less on per gallon basis, high volume

[9:55] was rewarded. We changed the rate structure at

[9:59] that point to create a rate where everybody,

[10:04] whether residential or business, was paying the same

[10:10] per gallon rate so that if you were

[10:14] a single person, perhaps elderly, who was taking

[10:20] not five showers a day, you know, the

[10:24] volumetric use was much, much lower than the

[10:28] hospital, I beg your pardon, a large user

[10:30] of the north end of the township, who

[10:32] was doing 2,000,000 gallons a month versus someone

[10:36] who was doing 100, that the 2,000,000 gallon

[10:40] a month customer was ultimately not effectively paying

[10:44] less. So we have a single rate. So

[10:48] if you're using a gallon a month, you're

[10:49] paying a number, X, and I don't know

[10:54] what that number is off the top of

[10:55] my head, but you're paying X per gallon.

[10:58] If you use one gallon, you're paying X.

[11:00] If you're using 2,000,000, you're paying 2,000,000 X.

[11:04] So that the larger your use, greater dollars

[11:10] are being paid. At the time, we felt

[11:14] that was more equitable than essentially giving a

[11:18] discount to the larger users. I think what

[11:23] we're hoping for in the study that you're

[11:27] going to do is to come out and

[11:29] say, is that the right way? Is there

[11:31] a better way? Is there something more equitable

[11:34] in terms of structuring the rates? And that's

[11:41] when you say, what are we doing today

[11:43] versus what we might be doing in the

[11:45] future, My view is, and I'm obviously not

[11:48] speaking with the other members, my view is

[11:51] we wipe the slate for what you're doing,

[11:53] say, what's the right thing to do going

[11:56] forward? What's the number that has to be

[11:59] achieved to meet the financial goals, but also

[12:04] what's the right and fair thing to do?

[12:06] And as I said, the change that we

[12:07] made a few years back was we had

[12:10] a number of people who came in and

[12:11] said, I'm on fixed income, I'm an elderly

[12:14] single person, I am using very, very little

[12:19] water, but I'm being charged my sewer usage

[12:23] based on my water consumption, which is the

[12:25] way it's structured. And I find it unfair

[12:29] that I'm paying more on a per gallon

[12:31] rate than possible. So I beg your pardon,

[12:35] a large user of the North Of township.

[12:38] As an aside, there are other large users

[12:40] of the North End of the township. There's

[12:43] a business up there, for example, that washes

[12:46] tablecloths, does linens for restaurants. So it's essentially

[12:49] a gargantuan laundry operation, very large consumer border.

[12:53] Now, obviously the hospital is a major user,

[12:55] but there are a number of places up

[12:57] there. Now the car wash is closed. And

[13:00] I don't, it doesn't look to me as

[13:02] though anybody's gonna buy that at the time.

[13:05] Again, they were a huge user of war.

[13:08] So those structures, they will have to be

[13:11] in Northern. I don't mean to be dismerging

[13:14] our good friends. But that was where we

[13:19] came to, was the objection or the concern

[13:22] of certain customers who were saying, I'm paying

[13:25] a rate greater on a per gallon basis

[13:28] than the hospital. That's what we're going to

[13:29] do, a flat rate. That's more, I think

[13:34] that's sort of intended as information for people

[13:37] to understand. But as I said, my view

[13:40] is we should wipe the slate, say, not

[13:42] worry about what we're doing, what we used

[13:44] to do, what's the right thing going forward

[13:46] in setting appropriate rates. Well, and I think

[13:49] that's what we've been testing from Shanna is

[13:53] what is the best master app for all

[13:55] of this? And I'll just comment on the

[13:58] fact that, so in 2013, so I've been

[14:02] doing rate studies for about twenty years and

[14:06] that comment that you made about basically paying

[14:10] your fair share, what you're actually using comes

[14:13] up all the time. Those rates are generally

[14:17] usage rates. There are some municipalities where there's

[14:22] really low costs that just have an ED

[14:24] rate because it's just so cheap, nobody really

[14:26] cares, much less than what the average rate

[14:30] for the township is. So yes, we're gonna,

[14:35] and we'll come up with some, hopefully several

[14:39] options how to do this that have pluses

[14:44] and minuses. And then you folks, you three

[14:47] will make a final determination of what you

[14:49] think is the best for your customers. You're

[14:53] actually segueing perfectly into what I was gonna

[14:56] ask, which is, are we gonna be evaluating

[14:58] the based analysis or based system as opposed

[15:01] to a usage based system? Yes, we will.

[15:05] Quite honestly, I didn't think I was gonna

[15:08] give that a lot of attention. Number one,

[15:13] at least from the sewer work that we've

[15:15] been doing in the last ten years and

[15:16] reports that we do, I think there's a

[15:18] question of getting a handle on every single

[15:20] EDU in the township and how many are

[15:23] allocated for especially large users on the north

[15:26] end of the township versus single family home.

[15:30] But we definitely will look at that and

[15:32] if we can make it through with a

[15:34] recommendation, we'll come up with that. And if

[15:36] we kind of reach a dead end and

[15:37] say, look, we can't really guarantee because we

[15:40] don't have all the information that this is

[15:41] going to be adequate for everybody. Could you

[15:43] just from home was jargon oftentimes gets flown

[15:47] in here. I know exactly what an EDU

[15:49] is for you for the audience. So, I

[15:51] mean, EDU is basically just a measurement. It's

[15:56] called equivalent dwelling unit. Think of it as

[15:58] just one single family home. So a single

[16:01] family home, I assume all of you folks

[16:03] live in, is considered one EV. Multifamily apartments

[16:09] or condos, if it's a single connection, they'll

[16:13] have multiple use assigned to them. Very large

[16:16] customers, like a hospital, have extreme number of

[16:19] EDUs assigned to them. So on an EDU

[16:23] basis, if we came up with a flat

[16:25] fee per EDU, X number of dollars per

[16:27] quarter, you as a single family homeowner would

[16:30] pay one, a large customer would pay multiples

[16:33] of that. How many gallons are there in

[16:36] the EDU? So I think the township ordinance

[16:41] says two fifty, but I think there's also

[16:43] some number two seventy five. But if we

[16:46] were to go to an EDU base, well,

[16:48] first of all, I think went to an

[16:49] EDU per day per month per day. I'm

[16:51] sorry, per day. Yes. If we went to

[16:54] an EDU basis, the number of gallons is

[16:56] gonna be immaterial because it's just a flat

[16:58] charge. Can you walk through along those lines

[17:02] for the benefit of everybody in the room,

[17:05] assuming that you are a single family homeowner

[17:09] and you were receiving two bills, can you

[17:11] explain the difference to us between one based

[17:13] on one based on usage so everybody's on

[17:16] the And if you're not, please speak up

[17:18] so we get it. So if we did

[17:20] a EDU based charge, we would take all

[17:23] the costs associated with the sewer system on

[17:26] an annual basis, basically in the budget that

[17:29] you adopt in December, we would take count

[17:32] up all the EDUs that are connected in

[17:34] the entire system. So all the single family

[17:36] homes, multifamily, all of non residential uses, we

[17:42] get a total number of EDUs. And we

[17:45] would take the budgeted cost divided by that

[17:48] total number of EDUs. And that's what you

[17:51] would pay on an annual basis per EDU.

[17:53] And I think you bill quarterly. So you

[17:55] take that annual by four. So one dwelling

[17:58] unit is typically one EDU? Correct. I would

[18:02] say it's always one. Almost by definition. And

[18:06] again, the point that I had touched on

[18:09] earlier is that a single person is going

[18:14] to be consuming, in many cases, less than

[18:17] two fifty or two seventy five gallons. And

[18:20] a family of, I can think of a

[18:24] family in the north end of the township

[18:26] who has eight children in middle school and

[18:30] high school, a lot of water being consumed.

[18:35] So they're consuming quite a bit more. And

[18:38] see, in my view, that's one of those

[18:40] equity challenges. As you say, here's a person

[18:44] who's consuming 100 gallons a day, paying for

[18:48] two fifty. Here's somebody who's consuming 1,100 gallons

[18:51] a day, paying for two fifty. It's trying

[18:55] to find the equitable and fair way of

[18:59] approaching those kinds of things. You know, the

[19:02] hospital blowing 2,000,000 gallons a day, that's always

[19:06] gonna be a big number no matter how

[19:07] you slice that. But it's dealing with the

[19:12] residential customers where some people are, if you

[19:16] will, underpaying and some people are overpaying. And

[19:20] that was always in my concern because you

[19:22] have a fair number of people in the

[19:25] country where you have older people who might

[19:30] be a single or a couple with nobody

[19:32] else living in the house, where their consumption

[19:34] is considerably less than typical we can do.

[19:38] Now we're putting aside filling your swimming pool

[19:40] or worrying your hands, that's a whole different

[19:41] discussion. That's my challenge with equity. Yeah, you're

[19:46] absolutely right. And when you go to an

[19:48] EDU basis, the assumption is every single house,

[19:51] let's just stick with those, is the same.

[19:53] Is it that it's every house or is

[19:55] it by acreage? Structure on every house. So

[19:59] on that basis, they're all considered equal. Now,

[20:03] true in some years where there's a family

[20:07] of 10 living in the house, that usage

[20:09] is gonna be more. Those people are gonna

[20:12] retire, they're gonna move out. And twenty five,

[20:14] thirty years from now, now there's just two

[20:16] people, maybe a young couple that's living there,

[20:18] their usage is gonna go down. So it's

[20:20] kind of an average of, in a snapshot

[20:23] of the entire township, and it's also an

[20:25] average over time that usage rises and falls

[20:29] depending on the occupancy in the building. But

[20:33] again, that's why there often is a push,

[20:36] like I said, unless it's really a low

[20:38] rate that nobody really cares about. And often

[20:42] when there's low flat rates, if you actually

[20:45] calculate the usage rate, they're generally the same.

[20:48] So then it just becomes easy because you're

[20:50] just charging here the same thing. But that's

[20:53] when the push to usage comes into play

[20:56] because yes, you're absolutely right. Someone, retired couple

[21:00] uses less arguably than a family with eight

[21:05] children, for sure. And it's plain as day,

[21:09] you're using, you're being charged what you're actually

[21:14] And just for the purposes of clarification, I'm

[21:17] sure almost everyone here knows this if you're

[21:19] a sewer user, but the way we charge

[21:21] is sort of a combination of two, we

[21:23] have a base rate, and then additionally, a

[21:26] gig per gallon usage. And I think we

[21:27] have at least four different four different base

[21:30] rates. Because they're four different Because they're four

[21:32] different systems. The base rate is the same

[21:34] for everybody. In that system. Yeah. Is there

[21:40] anything else from the board? We can move

[21:42] to public comment, if not. Anything else public

[21:46] comment, but I'm just going to remind everyone

[21:48] that we are going to focus on things

[21:51] going forward and not make comments about things

[21:53] in the past. We would ask you that.

[21:55] We would also ask you to hold to

[21:57] the three minute limit and limit the comments

[22:00] to positive ones and inquisitive ones. And I'm

[22:03] going to try my level best to both

[22:05] take your comments and hold up to thirty

[22:07] seconds. But if the timer goes off and

[22:10] I haven't held up thirty seconds then. Give

[22:11] us your name and address. I'll give it

[22:13] to you. I'm about to tell. There you

[22:22] go. I certainly need a nice lawyer here

[22:24] first. Joe Meaden, seven thirteen. Joe, you're a

[22:29] great study. Obviously, the more funds that are

[22:34] in the account, the better it is to

[22:36] start with. Great study. So, I'm going to

[22:40] answer your question, like, if the developer say,

[22:43] wants to add a new box to the

[22:45] sewer system, but the township didn't feel obligated

[22:49] to allow allow it. Maybe close by, but

[22:52] they didn't wanna allow it for whatever reason.

[22:56] Developer sues the township, they get into a

[22:59] legal battle. And those legal bills be charged

[23:03] to the sewer rate users. That's built for

[23:05] one second That is way outside of my

[23:07] opinion. Mister Deenan? Mister Deenan, the law provides

[23:13] that the township cannot use sewer connections to

[23:17] control development. That's specific in the law. Sure.

[23:21] And so if a developer applies for connection

[23:24] to the system, provided they can pay the

[23:27] tapping fees and associated costs, the township cannot

[23:30] legally deny them. So the scenario you've described

[23:37] can't take place. Questions involving engineering are what

[23:41] we're here to talk it's you cannot answer

[23:45] a question about. Let me let me just

[23:47] reiterate though that the the purpose of the

[23:49] race is to cover the budgeted expenses for

[23:53] the sewer the township. Sure. Makes sense. The

[23:56] operation, let me just finish because I still

[23:58] have time. Operation manuals or do you update

[24:03] them or are they already on-site or they

[24:07] exist? Bill Hagen, you have upper O and

[24:09] M manuals for pump stations? Actually, do know.

[24:12] Okay. So the answer is no. You don't

[24:17] really have any complex facilities in your system

[24:19] that normal people associated with sewer operations don't

[24:24] operate. Sure, a lot of times it ties

[24:27] in with confined space and trees like specific

[24:29] safety. Yeah, that's again is something for Bill

[24:32] Hagen. Let me do training for confined space

[24:34] and and the guys do get trained and

[24:36] there's a group of employees that are more

[24:39] apt to go into the stations than others

[24:41] just because of their specialties, whether it's adjusting

[24:45] pumps, whether it's pressures, whether it's checking valves,

[24:48] whatever that may be. So out of the

[24:51] eight employees, I would say that 50% of

[24:53] them are part of operations and maintenance of

[24:57] the stations and the system itself, because that

[24:59] would include televising, jetting, cleaning. Right, sure, maintenance.

[25:04] Okay, thank you. Mr. Childers? Yeah, of course.

[25:08] Two basic questions. First of all, It's not

[25:25] gonna be right versus last year, isn't it?

[25:27] The first one relates to tactics. My understanding

[25:31] is that I've done a lot of research

[25:34] on this. I I can't have your experience.

[25:36] Please understand that. I don't intend to say

[25:38] that. However, my understanding of various townships, they

[25:42] have adopted that fees that are commonly associated

[25:46] with the equivalent EUs as opposed to a

[25:49] consumption based system. So, in terms of calculating

[25:53] tapping fees is totally different than how you

[25:56] would do your rates. Is that tapping fee

[25:58] based on the state mandates? So, there is

[26:01] a state law that specifies how tapping fees

[26:05] are calculated. Is that act 57? Yes. Do

[26:08] you do you always use the act 57

[26:11] in your in your studies in recommending those

[26:14] the the when, when the township adopts a

[26:20] tapping fee, by example, they're supposed to provide

[26:23] all that medical computations in order to justify

[26:26] that expense instead of just a single one

[26:29] liner. Is that correct? Correct. But what they

[26:31] may actually include in the resolution? I don't

[26:33] know. But they have that. That's what's got

[26:36] be included at least as a record so

[26:37] that somebody can see that document? Yes. Okay.

[26:41] Okay. Excuse me, mister Childers. Be be clear

[26:44] on the difference between rates. I have tapping.

[26:47] Tapping fees and rates are two separate issues.

[26:49] Okay. Thanks. Tapping fees are based on historical

[26:52] norms as I understand it. Historical falls for

[26:55] establishing of a basic system both of what

[26:57] you're building as well as the what what

[27:01] exists that you're tying into. And also, it's

[27:04] supposed to include, as I understand it, that

[27:07] if you had something built in 1998, which

[27:10] was, that happened to have been a project

[27:12] which I was very familiar with and I

[27:14] think you were the first you were on

[27:16] the board of trustees or supervisors at that

[27:19] very same year. And those costs were significant

[27:23] for me as a regulator. I I was

[27:26] charged an assessment for it at that particular

[27:29] moment in time. Now, future connection to that

[27:32] system, I understand it is that it's commonplace

[27:36] to forward to for somebody else to come

[27:39] to online there. They should be, as I

[27:42] understand, it is commonplace to charge that future

[27:45] tap fee at that future point in time.

[27:49] Based on about three to four criteria for

[27:52] establishing that modified rate for that future date.

[27:55] Including the cost of financing escalation, cost construction

[28:00] that the costs have gone up and it

[28:02] should be based on not only the original

[28:04] cost, but on the projected cost at that

[28:07] future date. When the township adopts a tapping

[28:10] fee, that is the fee until they, in

[28:14] some time in the future, increase or decrease

[28:16] that debt. But is it not common to

[28:19] adjust it over time when it comes up

[28:22] instead of waiting twenty years? So, typically system

[28:28] owners will revise their staffing fee more frequently

[28:33] than twenty years. Why is that done? Why

[28:37] is that done? Yes. Well, most importantly, because

[28:41] usually the fee goes up, they want to

[28:43] generate more money. It generates money for the

[28:45] sewer account, does it not? Yes. And it's

[28:47] fair because you're paying a net amount. That

[28:49] is a time, we're over three minutes. You're

[28:51] paying an ample amount for what somebody did

[28:53] originally. Alright. Thank you. We'll catch rates. Okay.

[29:01] Murray Gordon, forty two ahead of you. How

[29:04] much is this gonna cost? That's my question.

[29:07] A. B, why don't we call Easttown Township,

[29:11] Tradipitant Township, the Ocean Township to see their

[29:14] models and and their metrics and what they're

[29:17] doing? Tradipitant is to live there. Chesterbrook is

[29:20] replete with thousands of EDUs in a concentrated

[29:23] area. I know they must have grinder pumps

[29:27] in Trinidad and Tobruk, Easttown, same thing, and

[29:30] they've been East Ocean. So there are enough

[29:34] models there and experiences to see how we

[29:37] should proceed rather than going this route. I

[29:40] would think that's what I would do. That's

[29:42] one of my wrap up questions. So thank

[29:44] you for getting that. I'm assuming that there'll

[29:46] be an analysis as part of your study

[29:48] of what the surrounding townships do. So yes,

[29:53] we always try to provide information on adjacent

[29:58] municipalities or system owners, what their rates are,

[30:01] how they apply those rates, as well as

[30:04] what their camping fees are. And then the

[30:06] final question is what local township or townships

[30:09] have you provided this service? So I recently

[30:13] have done tapping fees for West Whiteland Township

[30:16] or West Brandywine Township Municipal Authority, Also rates

[30:20] for both of them, rates in 2018 was

[30:26] the last time I did them in West

[30:28] Town Township. Okay, but nothing for Trinidad and

[30:30] nothing for East Ocean and nothing for East

[30:32] Town? No, we're not engaged by it. Thank

[30:35] you. I'm afraid you didn't get an answer

[30:38] right. Okay. Did not get an answer to

[30:40] it. Oh, yeah. How about the cost of

[30:41] the survey and the time period? So we

[30:45] haven't really started work on that. Once we

[30:48] get through this meeting and get all your

[30:50] feedback, we're gonna provide Shana with our fees

[30:53] for the three studies. Guestimate? Guestimate for all,

[30:59] you know what, I really don't want to

[31:00] provide. Starting a dollar anywhere. And when will

[31:08] that be disclosed? We'll get it. We'll get

[31:11] it. The next regularly scheduled meeting of the

[31:16] Board of Supervisory when we get to the

[31:19] meeting. Julie Bressor, Chapel Road. So my question

[31:25] was kind of going back to the game.

[31:27] Murray touched on it. Just what is the

[31:29] overall estimated time period that you're thinking this

[31:32] is going to be fired? In order to

[31:34] complete the study? Yeah, like just to go

[31:36] through the three studies that you're managing. So

[31:39] we're gonna do all three currently. The rates

[31:42] is the most important. We wanna get that

[31:44] completed in September when the township starts to

[31:48] work on their budget because by the time

[31:50] they get through the budget process and ready

[31:53] to adopt it in December, They wanna add

[31:55] the rates in order to cover what their

[31:57] budget costs are gonna be. Second most important

[32:01] is the capital reserve study, because that's gonna

[32:03] be a component of the rates. So we

[32:05] need to complete that so that we plugged

[32:07] in into a placeholder in the budget, how

[32:11] much the township should be setting aside each

[32:13] year for that fund. Tapping fees are the

[32:17] least of the concern, mainly because right now

[32:20] there's not a significant amount of development going

[32:22] on where someone's coming in building 100 houses

[32:26] and all of a sudden you're looking at

[32:27] a big check to come in. So all

[32:29] three studies by the September, the latest? Yes.

[32:34] So, the studies, I know you mentioned already

[32:37] that, so when general engineering finishes the work

[32:42] and the studies are available, they will be

[32:44] brought back to a board supervisor meeting and

[32:47] shared with the public? Yes. Yep, all right.

[32:56] You're sort of behind the post. I'm not

[32:58] very shy. That needs to allure one false

[33:04] recently. First of all, I apologize. I feel

[33:09] like a few minutes. In the the opening

[33:12] party presentation. Apparently, your study is going to

[33:16] do assessment of the condition of the assets.

[33:20] And I was like, comparing the age to

[33:23] lifetime expectancy of these assets, or is it

[33:27] gonna be some physical evaluation of the stations

[33:31] in line with that kind of thing? I

[33:34] have a follow-up. Yes, so part of it

[33:36] is, for instance, in the pump stations, we're

[33:38] gonna go out and look at what the

[33:40] current condition of them is, get all the

[33:42] information on the equipment there, pumps, piping, look

[33:46] at the condition of the structures. And then

[33:49] based on that, there's a normal useful life

[33:53] of something versus based on what its current

[33:54] condition is. And are you gonna be scoping

[33:57] a lot of lines as well, or is

[33:59] this gonna be primarily just? This is right

[34:03] now, we're kind of just taking a desktop

[34:05] view of everything. There is ongoing work with

[34:09] looking at the sewer system and that's gonna

[34:12] continue, but this is really at this point

[34:14] in time, and given the time constraints that

[34:17] we have to get things But it kind

[34:22] of leads into my last question, which is,

[34:24] has this been conducted in a thorough way

[34:27] before? And if yes, is this something we'd

[34:30] be able to tap into as a resource?

[34:34] When the study was done five years ago,

[34:36] we can just subtract five years from the

[34:39] expected life of these assets and your compensation

[34:41] on that basis or are you going to

[34:44] be starting from scratch? So on the capital

[34:46] reserve, as far as I know, that has

[34:48] not been conducted, certainly not. We've been associated

[34:50] with the township since 2012. I don't know

[34:53] if anything has been done prior, but I

[34:55] don't believe so. So that's gonna be a

[34:57] new study. As I mentioned, I think TAPPING

[35:00] was last done in 02/2007, and that's gonna

[35:04] be our starting point. We're gonna look at

[35:05] what the prior information was and update that

[35:10] from what stage between that and that. Then

[35:12] also just as a pause, a lot of

[35:15] the physical work is ongoing, but also, and

[35:21] forgive me putting it this way, as part

[35:23] of the prep for the sale, an awful

[35:28] lot of this data has been gathered. When

[35:32] Mr. Malin says that they can do this

[35:34] by the September, he's not exactly starting with

[35:36] an empty empty box. A bit of that

[35:40] stuff sorted there. I promise this is part

[35:42] of component that actually checking back to you

[35:44] guys instead of Carol engineering is have we

[35:49] had a component of the rates prior to

[35:53] this, which has included a revised provision for

[35:57] anticipated replacement of some of the assets is

[35:59] every human use of life as I've already

[36:02] done. Perfect timing. Yeah, and I'll respond to

[36:06] that to say it has not been studied,

[36:10] if you will, professionally. It's always been done

[36:12] from an accounting perspective here. So the financial

[36:16] staff has looked at it. So to have

[36:19] someone come in with a clean set of

[36:21] eyes without prior assumptions going into it is

[36:26] a better way at this stage. Again, our

[36:30] financial people have said, here are our costs,

[36:34] here's what we're looking at, and that number

[36:36] has been rolled forward. But I think having

[36:39] a professional third party look at it that

[36:42] way is gonna be a better way of

[36:43] assessing those numbers. I think we have a

[36:47] couple more. Yeah. Charles Laday. Yes, I would,

[36:58] I have a couple of things I'd like

[36:59] to talk about. I'd like to thank the

[37:02] board for respecting the process. I said this

[37:06] before at the last at one of the

[37:08] previous meetings. I really appreciate it's certainly democracy

[37:15] and action. It's refreshing to see. I also

[37:20] think that these steps are also very welcome.

[37:22] This is a good way to do it.

[37:25] I think when you talk about equity, I

[37:28] think that it's important that you protect the

[37:32] smallest users. And I'm not one of the

[37:35] smallest users. I am a user who I

[37:40] don't have eight kids, but my wife and

[37:43] I use plenty of water and we're happy

[37:46] to have it. But one thing I do

[37:49] have is I have a sprinkler system and

[37:51] I would like to see some equity in

[37:54] the for the people who are using water

[37:57] but are not using sewer. So I'm I'm

[38:00] I don't think I think that I should

[38:03] be paying for every gallon of water that

[38:05] I put into the sewer system, but I

[38:08] don't want to put a, you know, that

[38:10] amount of, I don't want that figured off

[38:13] of my water bill. And, and I don't,

[38:17] I also don't expect to pay for two

[38:20] fifty gallons a day because I'm, I might

[38:23] be using more than that. And I'd like

[38:26] to pay for what I'm doing. So I

[38:29] would ask that in the process of this,

[38:32] Carol Engineering tell us a way that the

[38:36] people who are using more water, but aren't

[38:38] putting it back into the sewer could possibly

[38:43] get a meter or provide meters through the

[38:47] township. You're willing to pay for it, if

[38:51] I'm willing to pay for a meter to

[38:53] to meter exactly how much water I'm putting

[38:56] in, or to meter how much water I'm

[38:58] using for another source and deduct that, I

[39:01] would ask that that might be possible if

[39:05] we might possibly find a way to do

[39:06] that. I think that's actually something that you

[39:10] have to approach Aqua about. You need to

[39:14] do some plumbing in your house to separate

[39:16] your sprinkler supply from everything else. From Aqua's

[39:21] perspective, they'd be more than happy, I'm sure,

[39:23] to charge you some sum to install a

[39:27] second meter. Well, that's what I'm asking Bill.

[39:31] I'm asking you, though, is I'll pay my

[39:34] plumber to put that in if we if

[39:36] we can find a piece of equipment that

[39:38] Carol Engineering thinks is is equitable, because this

[39:42] isn't a deal with awkward this a deal

[39:44] with you. All right. So I'm asking you

[39:47] how to get a deduction from your bill

[39:50] by putting a piece of equipment in the

[39:52] Carol Engineering Trust so that you trust it

[39:56] instead of it. Instead of me working with

[40:01] Aqua. I understand the part about Aqua, but

[40:04] I. So we will absolutely Mr. Ladain, we

[40:09] will talk about sub metering now water that's

[40:12] used, but does not go into the system.

[40:14] Good. And then if can figure out a

[40:16] way that we could buy, that we could

[40:18] all buy the meters together and make some,

[40:22] economic benefit to the people and into the

[40:26] system and as an equity thing, that would

[40:29] be perfect. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you

[40:33] very much. All right. Let me see if

[40:37] I can bring up the next. We have

[40:39] somebody else here. Sawyers? Yep. Can you hear

[40:47] me? Sure Okay. Jay Salyers, six forty one

[40:51] South Warren Avenue, Malvern, PA. Going back to

[40:55] that comment about the meters, the company, Neptune

[40:59] makes the meters. They're used throughout The United

[41:02] States from water companies. And I know this

[41:06] because I want a water meter because I

[41:08] have a low pressure sewer system. We're a

[41:11] low use household, one to two to zero

[41:16] people at any given time, and we've been

[41:18] stung with a ginormous $600 bill for essentially

[41:22] nothing. Now, the previous township manager gave a

[41:26] lovely rebate and said that this thing was

[41:29] fixed. And I doubt it, because nobody was

[41:33] ever picked up on any cameras coming and

[41:35] looking at anything. And I've had pre doc

[41:38] out here numerous times when they clean it

[41:41] out, and there's nothing wrong with it. There's

[41:43] no water coming into it, but I get

[41:45] these crazy bills. So in fairness, Carol Engineering,

[41:50] when you're doing this, I would like to

[41:53] look at Neptune meters. And like the previous

[41:56] gentleman, I'll pay to put it in. I

[41:59] want my bill to be reflective of that

[42:01] because I don't have city water. I have

[42:04] a well. And if I can take that

[42:06] lid off that tank and there's no flood

[42:09] coming in, all I can tell you is

[42:12] there's no possibility of me running up a

[42:15] $600 sewer bill. It just it's just not

[42:21] happening. That's one of the aspects that we'll

[42:24] be looking at with Carroll Engineering and they're

[42:27] familiar with the situation like that. But also

[42:32] the people who are not on public order.

[42:33] Yeah. Thank you. Is your St. Yes. Hi.

[42:42] Brian St. So I'm not as technical as

[42:47] everybody else here. So simplistic in its simplistic

[42:51] form. We're here now. We got through a

[42:56] lot of them, right? Where my question is

[42:59] going, I know we have Carol engineer here.

[43:02] I've also saw an email by Julie now

[43:05] talking about they were trying to have a

[43:07] put together a group of people that were

[43:10] going to help see the sewer. So I

[43:14] guess I'm getting down to the transparency of

[43:17] being able to understand. And I assume that

[43:20] is the surveys that are going to come

[43:22] out, which is basically a line item. I

[43:25] mean, Aqua said there's all this investment that

[43:28] needed to be made into the sewer system.

[43:31] So I guess so that we have an

[43:32] open communication and dialogue so we can see

[43:35] what's going on. I mean I don't know

[43:37] the value of tapping and all this stuff

[43:39] but I think we do want to see

[43:41] or be involved in is being able to

[43:44] see what is really going on the cost

[43:47] and you know and what the condition is

[43:50] of the service system. We can, my point

[43:53] of view, a common sense understanding that, okay,

[43:57] money that's needed for the race. Let me

[44:00] send it better. And that's again part of

[44:02] what they're doing. When Aqua talked about the

[44:06] capital investment, most of those comments came from

[44:10] the to do list that we ourselves have

[44:15] already, for the most part, identified. We've identified

[44:18] something on the order of 3 to $5,000,000

[44:20] worth of stuff. One of the most critical

[44:23] elements is what's called INI, inflow and infiltration,

[44:27] that is groundwater and rainwater and water from

[44:31] streams that gets into the sewers. So you

[44:35] have non sewage water in the system that

[44:38] gets pumped all the way over and recharged

[44:39] by the Valley Forge sewer authority to process.

[44:45] So everything that we can do to reduce,

[44:49] to the greatest extent possible, eliminate I and

[44:52] I is dollars that users aren't paying for.

[44:59] But it's also a very expensive thing to

[45:01] do because, well, this town's a very wet

[45:05] area. If you hear me in storm board

[45:08] discussions, we're downhill of everything. And we've got

[45:12] a lot of streams, a lot of creeks,

[45:14] a lot of water to challenge and televise

[45:18] the system to find, oh, here's a root,

[45:21] here's a crack, here's a break. And we're

[45:23] in the constant, mean, Mr. Hagen has a

[45:26] whole bunch of charming videos to look at

[45:30] if you find things like that interesting, where

[45:32] you're running down the inside of a sewer

[45:33] pipe and there's a nice, nice pipe and

[45:35] then it offsets because the ground has shifted,

[45:39] the roots have moved it, the earth has

[45:42] moved. And of course, at that point, you've

[45:45] got groundwater flowing. You've got to go out

[45:47] there and identify those places. You've got to

[45:49] dig them up, you've to fix. Them. Time

[45:51] consuming and expensive. So there is already a

[45:54] list. The pump stations, the life of the

[45:58] pumps, the control systems, the power systems, the

[46:04] panels, broadly speaking. So we'll be able to

[46:07] All of that's, and again, it's all gonna

[46:09] be discussed in public. Yeah, because I'm a

[46:10] guy who likes to look at stuff and

[46:13] I would like to see what makes up

[46:15] the sewer system actually be able to. All

[46:20] of that will be part of what's going

[46:27] on. I can understand a rate adjustment, right?

[46:30] Yeah. And that's part of what one of

[46:33] the three studies is, is the capital reserve

[46:36] fund study. So you'll be able to get

[46:37] down into the nitty gritty and witness from

[46:40] and see exactly how that happens. But to

[46:45] your first question, it is that we have

[46:49] been approached by a group of people. I've

[46:51] met with some of them. I've enjoyed all

[46:53] the meetings. We're at a point where we're

[46:55] trying to figure out what is is right

[46:57] now and what's the condition. And we will

[46:59] absolutely hope to use everybody's knowledge in every

[47:03] group, everybody that's suggested themselves and other people.

[47:06] Many of you are here. Actually communicating it.

[47:11] Absolutely. That's why we're having these meetings. Thank

[47:14] you. That's all I want to do. I

[47:16] just tossed in, and Mark can attest to

[47:18] this because he does a lot of I

[47:19] and I work, that looking at this stuff

[47:21] gets old real fast. Yeah, how many videos

[47:25] of the inside? Of Brian might want to

[47:30] look at more though. The videos of the

[47:33] inside of the pipe. I'm sure there's a

[47:36] list of pipe needs to be replaced, right?

[47:39] Pump needs to be replaced. Us dryers need

[47:42] to be replaced. There's controllers. There's a to

[47:44] do list for this. Yeah, there's a, that's

[47:47] the understanding of the health of the sewer

[47:50] system. That's why we're here in a nutshell.

[47:53] Yes, Dick. As I'm Dick McDonald, I'm 29

[47:57] in Worcester Road in Paoli. So I've been

[48:00] doing work for self management industry for past

[48:03] sixteen years. So this is my field And

[48:06] so it is all interesting to me. Read

[48:08] the latest report and so on, but I

[48:12] know all these things are to use that

[48:13] have to be done. I'm interested because the

[48:17] technology is moving ahead and we have a

[48:20] small conveyance system that would be relatively easy

[48:23] to get your arms around. But I think

[48:26] there's opportunity to move from reactive and we're

[48:31] probably already doing predictive or preventative, but we're

[48:35] probably not doing predictive maintenance. And I think

[48:37] our system with maybe 20 or so pumps

[48:41] is such that we could get to a

[48:43] point where we could be doing predictive maintenance.

[48:46] And that's the kind of things I'm interested

[48:47] in is, are we running the right pumps

[48:50] in the right way? And you know, we're

[48:51] moving because I don't think we are right

[48:54] now. I think it's just the wet wall

[48:55] comes on, float comes on and says pump.

[48:58] And you know, there's some efficiencies that we

[49:00] could get out of a small system if

[49:02] we put a little bit of money into

[49:04] that predictive and also operational efficiencies. Bill raised

[49:09] his hand. Well, over the last seven years,

[49:12] I started at Pump Station One. We put

[49:15] brand new xylum pumps in there, seven and

[49:17] a halfs. They'll have a seven and a

[49:18] half pump on the shelf. So if there's

[49:20] a breakdown, we can interchange that pump. Station

[49:23] number two, they went to 15 horsepower pumps.

[49:27] Did the same thing there. Station three, when

[49:29] we did the upgrades, we were only gonna

[49:31] put two in. We suggested we put a

[49:33] third one in there because that moves the

[49:35] most sewage per minute. Everything goes from Station

[49:40] 3 to- Exactly. Up to King Row before

[49:43] it crosses over and goes down to the

[49:45] meter pit. But in that installation, I believe

[49:50] it was, I can't remember the engineer saying

[49:53] that was back in 2013, just when I

[49:55] started. But I said, Jimmy Stairs told me

[49:59] a horror story about that station running on

[50:02] one pump for seven months because they had

[50:04] ABS pumps in there from Sweden and we

[50:07] couldn't get the parts to fix it. So

[50:09] I said to Dennis Tracy, I said, would

[50:11] love to put a third pump in it.

[50:12] He says, well, you got the sump pump

[50:14] over there. I said, fill it in. And

[50:16] we didn't put three pumps in there. So,

[50:19] I mean, that's a matter of sleeping at

[50:21] night or not, if you're running a pump

[50:22] pump or, know, Having three in rotation, even

[50:26] if you have to do maintenance, that one

[50:29] pump gets pulled off at stand, you send

[50:31] it out, you still have two pumps to

[50:32] run the station. Also Station 5, Pence Reserve.

[50:38] There was a dual pump system in there.

[50:41] There was a pump that pumped it up

[50:43] to Gorman Rups on the second floor. There

[50:46] were submersibles down below, pumped it up to

[50:48] Gorman Rups and then pumped it up to

[50:49] the settling pond and then sprayed the dudes.

[50:53] We moved them into two xylophones, brand new

[50:57] control panel. So we have been dumping money

[51:00] into the stations and the pumps. The next

[51:04] phase of that would be to go through

[51:05] panels and start to update electric generators. I

[51:09] mean, the two ones, Devin Roeder, our old

[51:13] backup generators, when power fails, the generator kicks

[51:17] on and keeps the stuff flowing. Suppose it-

[51:20] Well, the the other part of that's the

[51:21] idea. The software aspect that says, you know,

[51:25] I can move the same amount of water

[51:26] running through BFEs at 50% for less money

[51:29] than one BFE at 100%. So, let's let's

[51:32] not go too technical. I know it's amazing.

[51:35] I'm saying is eyes glazing over. So you

[51:39] can hear that you don't hear. You're right.

[51:42] And when you get into looking at a

[51:43] specific facility, that's the time when you start

[51:46] doing those situations to see whether there's a

[51:49] better way to do that. But in a

[51:52] global sense, Bill has been addressing these one

[51:54] by one. Kevin writes 6.8 way, not the

[52:00] subject for this meeting, but I'd like to

[52:04] say thanks to Bill. He's back because he's

[52:07] gone for a while. Oh, you have no

[52:10] idea. Oh, he's been a lot of time.

[52:11] It wasn't very helpful. He's doing it. We

[52:14] have a follower. It was nice. I wasn't

[52:22] emailing you every few weeks. Anyway, but for

[52:28] Bill and for both Bills, yeah, of these

[52:32] things can be boring to look at this

[52:34] data, all this justification, but not if you

[52:37] haven't seen it since 2013, the last rate

[52:41] study was done. Not if you haven't seen

[52:43] it during the process of asset purchase agreement,

[52:47] maybe a lot of work was done. We

[52:50] haven't necessarily seen it. So I think that's

[52:52] this gentleman's point, that's some of the granularity

[52:55] and specificity that we as users and that

[52:57] people who are gonna burden have to carry

[52:59] burden of increased costs because things get more

[53:01] expensive. We just know that. Why? What's in

[53:04] it? What about the CapEx? What about I

[53:07] and I? What about all these things? And

[53:08] so I was on a recoverable basis and

[53:11] share all the information, then it's all gonna

[53:12] be a lot easier to swallow or flush.

[53:17] I'm sorry, I wish you had the links.

[53:19] Yeah. We have not heard in the back.

[53:27] Try not to do seconds until everybody is

[53:29] working. So mister Swift. I have two questions.

[53:33] Mister Swift. The first is that the biggest

[53:38] single cost of the sewage system is what's

[53:41] paid to the Valley Forest sewer authority. Do

[53:45] you have good projections as to what those

[53:48] costs are going to be for the next

[53:50] three to five years? So I don't know

[53:53] the answer to that. Yes, it's the answer.

[53:55] We do. Yes, we do. They may have

[53:58] provided them. Yes, true. What I was gonna

[53:59] say is they would provide that information to

[54:02] the township. I'm sorry to interrupt. I just

[54:06] wanted to make clear that the township will

[54:09] certainly provide that to the sewer engineers so

[54:11] they can incorporate that in the studies as

[54:15] we move forward in this process. The second

[54:18] relates to something that Bill Schumacher had mentioned,

[54:21] which is I and I. In the litigation

[54:24] with ACWA, ACWA, late in the case, made

[54:28] the argument that INI was very excessive. And

[54:33] I know based on Bill Haggen's comment that

[54:37] the township is looking into that, but I

[54:40] believe the best comprehensive study was more than

[54:43] ten years ago. And are you going to

[54:46] factor into your study the cost of a

[54:51] comprehensive examination of INIs? So yes, we will

[54:58] do that in the capital reserve, and it's

[55:03] gonna be two components. So part of that

[55:06] is if you should be inspecting your system,

[55:09] industry standard is 20% every but we're gonna

[55:12] have to also look at accelerating that to

[55:14] get caught up to where we are today,

[55:18] because that hasn't been done on a regular

[55:19] basis. Before trying that, is there any Mike

[55:25] Curry have not gone to? Correct, is that

[55:27] correct? Yeah, Mike Curry, go ahead. Hey, Phil,

[55:30] a question, the upcoming rate increases, will they

[55:34] need PUC approval on that or the amount

[55:36] speaks for itself? No, the township is not

[55:39] subject to the PUC. Okay, so we're going

[55:42] on the second round of questions. I just

[55:44] ask that you try to, that you keep

[55:46] it same rules, but move to a separate

[55:49] topic if possible. Is there anybody who hasn't

[55:51] spoken yet? Actually, do we have, no, do

[55:53] we have anybody in the room? Not yet.

[55:56] That's a repeat of Okay, I have my

[55:59] recording for you too. Have a few. Do

[56:01] you shop for electricity for the sewer system?

[56:04] Because these pumps to which you referred are

[56:07] energy hogs, as they in the petroleum business.

[56:10] So do you shop for electricity and lock

[56:12] it in? I do all the time and

[56:14] also shop for natural gas. So, all right.

[56:17] That's something we should be doing. You can

[56:20] do it in Pennsylvania. We're very thankful because

[56:22] you can't do it in a lot of

[56:23] states. And I also applaud you. I have

[56:26] two sump pumps combined as a contingency so

[56:30] I can sleep better at night so I

[56:31] know exactly what you're talking about. Have you

[56:34] ever contracted to do a study with the

[56:36] township and then follow through and took over

[56:39] running of the sewer system? So we do

[56:43] not do any operations. Do you have a

[56:45] division that does that? No. Alright. Thanks. So

[56:49] he doesn't have a best interest in the

[56:50] conductor. Yes. Based on my review of minutes

[56:57] going back to nineteen ninety nine, ninety eight.

[57:01] There's a comprehensive video to speak in terms

[57:04] of my friend Bob Bob Quick. The that

[57:08] the system was fully videoed in 1998. Another

[57:13] point regarding to our grinder pumps. These are

[57:17] not positive replacement pumps. That means that if

[57:20] you have head pressure that means resistance and

[57:23] your pump is just churning there, you get

[57:25] false flow readings because it's not measuring flow.

[57:28] It's measuring how long. It's measuring average in

[57:30] terms of what that that that pump's doing.

[57:33] So, point about false readings about some pumps,

[57:36] that's absolutely correct. The objective would be put

[57:40] in a a measurement of water flow from

[57:43] your well that you would that would measure

[57:46] what you're actually measuring. And then if you

[57:48] wanted to subtract from your water flow from

[57:50] the well, you take it not excluding your

[57:53] external. This question was brought up in the

[57:57] same time period, 1998, '19 '90 '9. It

[58:02] was discussed. There were solutions to it. There's

[58:06] been a lot of technology since then too.

[58:09] Yes. Improvement. Less cost. Remote reading, everything. Ease,

[58:15] plastic pumps, you can do your own cell

[58:17] phone. And that's what we're hoping to get

[58:20] out of it. Let me just address some

[58:22] properties that are on well, not on public

[58:24] funds. So there's usually two ways to end.

[58:29] The system owner will allow you to put

[58:32] a meter on your well, and you get

[58:35] the meter readings just as if you were

[58:36] connected to Aqua system. And they'll get that

[58:39] and that's how they'll calculate your bill. They'll

[58:43] also charge you a flat rate. Typically flat

[58:46] rates are higher than the average usage bill

[58:51] because the system owners, I'm not saying that

[58:54] the township will do this, system owners want

[58:57] you to be on a metered system so

[58:59] that number one, it benefits you, and number

[59:03] two, it makes it easier for them to

[59:06] generate their bills because they're just using one

[59:08] formula. They don't have to like figure out,

[59:10] all here's all the usage people and then,

[59:12] all right, I gotta separately do flat rate

[59:14] bills. But my understanding is that the best

[59:17] practice on that is to take the metering

[59:19] zone, your three monthly, if you win a

[59:22] month where you're not irrigating your lawn and

[59:24] use those three months as your average on

[59:27] flow rates if you're trying to establish a

[59:29] base rate. We're not going to get into

[59:34] that. I I know that but that's I'm

[59:35] just saying that he's talking about solutions and

[59:38] I'm saying this is what I understand. I'm

[59:41] not talking about solutions, I'm talking about what

[59:43] I've observed of how system owners calculate the

[59:45] rates. Well, this is another method that other

[59:49] users have done. Yeah. Thank you. And we

[59:54] might, Zoom is a little tricky sometimes with

[59:57] the raised hands. Mr. Stolliers, did you have

[1:00:00] something else to say or is your hand

[1:00:02] still up? No, I did. My hand, I

[1:00:05] reraised my hand. I apologize. No, go ahead.

[1:00:08] And I think that was Jerry that was

[1:00:11] just talking about the addition of the water

[1:00:13] And yes, that's exactly I would want it

[1:00:17] right before my water processing where the softener

[1:00:22] and neutralizer is. And then my outdoor water,

[1:00:25] I don't have to deduct anything. But anyway,

[1:00:28] Dana, this is kind of for you and

[1:00:30] not so much for Carol Engineering. For folks

[1:00:34] who are getting a metered bill off the

[1:00:37] hour meter, no one has said anything in

[1:00:40] all of the years this has been done,

[1:00:41] and I think it's time for this to

[1:00:43] come to an end. But we get a

[1:00:46] bill that just says, Here's your number of

[1:00:48] gallons. When I get the electric bill, it

[1:00:51] tells me my start, my end, and how

[1:00:54] many kilowatts. I can do the math. I

[1:00:57] can't do any math. Nobody that gets one

[1:00:59] of these bills can do any math. So

[1:01:01] in other words, we need a start and

[1:01:03] an end and a conversion factor to equal

[1:01:08] my number of gallons. It's basically unacceptable the

[1:01:11] way it is. So, I mean, that's something

[1:01:13] that just needs to be kind of updated

[1:01:15] going forward since we're opening everything a You're

[1:01:19] in a I'm on a well. But we

[1:01:24] have the hour meter on. And going back

[1:01:26] to what Jerry had said with the pump,

[1:01:30] my dad was an engineer. I come from

[1:01:31] a family of engineers. He was the guy

[1:01:33] who stuck the system in here. And basically,

[1:01:37] I've got a lot ahead that I'm pushing

[1:01:40] up to get to where the got to

[1:01:43] get through a couple check valves. So most

[1:01:45] likely, what's happening is I'm getting stuff that

[1:01:47] comes back down and the pump churn, churn,

[1:01:49] churn, churns. And the bills haven't been bad

[1:01:54] lately, but, you know, I'm waiting because we've

[1:01:57] all seemed to have gotten these phantom bills.

[1:02:01] So that's why I'm saying we really need

[1:02:04] a start, an end, a conversion factor, and

[1:02:07] then the number of gallons. Deep lymphatics. Okay.

[1:02:10] We hear you. Thank you. Absolutely. Thank you

[1:02:15] very much. I've got an additional clarification. I

[1:02:18] understand that mister Shoemaker declared the use for

[1:02:22] this is back in in the exhibit H

[1:02:26] that the flow rates consumer including I and

[1:02:30] I was two fifty gallons per day, okay?

[1:02:35] Has anybody done any analysis within your accounting

[1:02:38] department to determine, compare these flow rates we're

[1:02:43] being charged for through Valley Forge and Valley

[1:02:45] Trunk Line versus how much how much we're

[1:02:49] being billed how much we're being billed. We

[1:02:52] know there's a big discrepancy which is why

[1:02:54] we know we have an I and I

[1:02:56] problem. What? I don't know what the number

[1:02:58] is, but it's it's a variable. Estimate is

[1:03:01] it's close to 40%. No. Excuse me. It's

[1:03:04] almost 80% of what's actually being billed. I

[1:03:09] don't seem to recall the number is that

[1:03:12] that high but what I'm saying is we

[1:03:16] know we have a problem and that's why

[1:03:18] we're going after it. Has anybody determined what

[1:03:21] the cost benefit analysis would be to take

[1:03:24] care of the the major problem. The major

[1:03:27] problems. You you attack my business. It my

[1:03:30] experience been the tax for the major problem

[1:03:32] before you deal with the minor problems, okay?

[1:03:34] Now, comments have been made regarding conflicts between

[1:03:38] Pendot Roads and our our sewer system lines.

[1:03:42] Is is Paley Pike 1 of those issues?

[1:03:45] Paley Pike is State Road. Were you aware

[1:03:47] of the fact that the sewers two three

[1:03:49] thousand two hundred feet of that were installed

[1:03:52] by township contract in 1998, '19 '90 '9.

[1:03:58] Were you aware? Wasn't installed by the state.

[1:03:59] No. No. No. No. The road. No. You

[1:04:02] did. Your minutes, in your minutes, it says,

[1:04:05] if you did the work, 80% of the

[1:04:07] budget came through the state. But but you,

[1:04:12] Willstown did the construction. That's my understanding based

[1:04:15] on your minutes. Construction of the sewer system.

[1:04:18] Storm drainage. Okay, we're not talking about storm

[1:04:22] sewers here. We're talking about No. No. The

[1:04:24] problem my understanding is that the storm sewer

[1:04:28] has problems that have caused leaks in the

[1:04:31] Okay. Sanitary we bought it, though. We're not

[1:04:34] gonna sit here and analyze those aspects. We're

[1:04:37] trying to figure this out. We know that

[1:04:39] there are many places where storm sewers and

[1:04:43] sanitary sewers are in close proximity, let's put

[1:04:47] it that way. They may not necessarily be

[1:04:48] in the same trench, but they're in close

[1:04:50] proximity. There have been issues where the storm

[1:04:54] sewers, which are in many places corrugated metal,

[1:04:57] have rusted out, the water is coming out

[1:05:01] the bottom of them. All these are I

[1:05:03] and I issues. We can't sit here today

[1:05:06] and say, well, this storm sewer or that

[1:05:08] storm sewer. We don't know that. And that's

[1:05:12] what we're going to try to find out.

[1:05:14] We don't have those answers. But the general

[1:05:18] question is, respect is, if we know that

[1:05:21] there are problems with a conflict between a

[1:05:24] storm system that's causing problems to our sanitary

[1:05:27] system, why haven't we done something more forcefully

[1:05:31] with respect to the entities who built it

[1:05:35] or maintained it or have that responsibility? My

[1:05:39] point to it is my understanding is that

[1:05:42] was along 3,200 feet was a well sound

[1:05:47] right. Okay, thank you, thank you. This is

[1:05:50] not the form for that. We have a

[1:05:53] lot of storm water coming down right now,

[1:05:55] it's adding to all the problems we're talking

[1:05:58] about here tonight, immeasurably. So if there are

[1:06:02] no more questions, I'm gonna adjourn the meeting

[1:06:04] so people can get on before it becomes

[1:06:05] horrible. Mike Kerstownach? Yeah, so are you gonna

[1:06:08] have another meeting right there? Yes, so what

[1:06:10] will happen is we will hopefully get all

[1:06:12] the final reports with no appendix left behind

[1:06:17] by the September. And then we will meet

[1:06:19] to talk about them in public forum like

[1:06:22] this. And in the meantime, I think we

[1:06:25] might set up a module on Ratanjak website

[1:06:27] if you have questions or comments about the

[1:06:29] study in the interim that you maybe didn't

[1:06:32] think of today. We'll try and set something

[1:06:34] up that they can be submitted online. Can

[1:06:37] there be progress meetings? We are saying that

[1:06:40] we will have the progress meeting. That's exactly

[1:06:42] what we're saying. Thank you, rather than the

[1:06:44] final report. Correct. Might do those at regularly

[1:06:52] scheduled board meetings. Or either before or after

[1:06:56] to paint us on the. Yep. Yep. The

[1:06:57] scope rules anticipate. Yep. Yep. Transparency. Mister Penn

[1:07:00] State in the back. Tell me your name.

[1:07:02] I can only see. Mean, I'm going associate.

[1:07:05] Are there going to be several meetings to

[1:07:07] to look at the stormwater issues? Yes, so

[1:07:10] right now we're undergoing a storm water master

[1:07:12] plan. Yep, Right now they're in a small,

[1:07:16] big pond down White Rock. Yeah, you're not

[1:07:18] alone. You're not alone. Very wet township. All

[1:07:20] right, the next meeting of the Board of

[1:07:22] Supervisors is July 17, '7 pm. Same bad

[1:07:25] time, same bad place. Thank you very much.

June 26, 2023 Special Meeting Regarding Sewer Studies

Transcript