[5:02] Good evening. Um my name is Kate Tumi. I'm chair of the public safety

[5:06] committee. Uh to my uh right is um councelor Tony Economo. Uh Vice

[5:12] Chairperson Morris Bergman is delayed a little bit. He'll be here shortly, but

[5:16] we're going to move get moving. Um we're being clerked by um the assistant clerk

[5:22] of the city council uh AJ Fodle. Um we are joined uh at the desk uh here at

[5:29] commissioner of inspection services Nicholas and Tanavika. Did I say that

[5:35] right this time? I'm sorry. It was deputy city clerk. I

[5:39] didn't mean to say give me a different title. I mean AJ. Um

[5:43] and so um we're going to start with virtual attendee call-in information.

[5:50] Thank you. Pursuant to chapter 20 of the acts of 2021, in order to ensure active

[5:55] public engagement, city worester currently allows for both inerson and

[5:58] remote participation at all city council and standing committee meetings. To

[6:02] partake in the meeting, you may attend the meeting in person within the meeting

[6:06] location. Follow the below below link to join Zoom or dial the direct line as

[6:11] indicated. If you join a Zoom meeting by dialing in with the phone number, you

[6:14] can raise your hand by dialing star9. Public safety committee zoom link is

[6:18] https colon4wisterma.zoomv.comj161-5547889.

[6:28] Uh public safety committee zoom phone number is 16468287666.

[6:35] Public safety committee zoom access code is 161-5547889.

[6:43] Um, I'd like to do uh uh ask uh the deputy city clerk to do a roll call.

[6:49] » Councilors Bergman, Economo >> here,

[6:52] » and chairperson councelor Tumi >> here. Um to approval of the minutes, a

[6:56] order that the city council standing committee of public safety hereby

[6:59] approves the minutes of public safety committee meeting on June 23rd, 2026.

[7:04] » So moved. >> All those in favor post, so voted. Um,

[7:09] and then we're going to go to 3A miscellaneous items. Order of Councelor

[7:14] Economo, uh, Councelor Jose Rivera, Councelor Tumi, Council Rosen, Council

[7:19] Blada. Request standing committee on public safety hold a discussion to

[7:23] review the city's ordinance relative to excessive and unreasonable noise.

[7:27] Further requests said discussion include feasibility of amending the noise

[7:30] ordinance to allow the creation of a special noise variance application for

[7:34] churches, festivals, organizations holding certain events. see attached for

[7:38] the western noise ordinance as well as other municipalities processes that was

[7:43] in council July 21st 2026. Um commissioner, do you want to start on

[7:50] that?

[7:58] » Just to to review, I understand that there's been um several questions about

[8:04] the enforcement of the noise ordinance over the last several months. Um we've

[8:08] been reviewing the different items that we have and the enforcability of the

[8:13] different statutes uh throughout the ordinance and then also um what the

[8:18] authority is for each department when we have uh when we come upon upon the

[8:23] complaints. Mhm. >> Um for the the easiest explanation of

[8:29] how noise ordinances or noise complaints are handled, um the the two sentence

[8:34] answer is um the police handle people complaints and ISD handles um things

[8:42] complaints. And the way to best describe that is if you have a loud party or um

[8:48] there's loud music coming from some place or uh loud commotion and yelling

[8:55] um the police would respond to that. if there is a large a loud HVAC unit or

[9:02] there's a tonal sound or a buzzing sound that's coming out of a building or there

[9:08] may be a violation of a license, that's where ISD would get involved. Um, one of

[9:14] the one of the bigger um, areas that we've seen the complaints come in is uh,

[9:22] noise complaints about establishments and the way that we approach those. Um,

[9:27] the reason why um, one of the questions was is how come we don't go out and take

[9:33] noise meter readings at establishments when they when there are loud uh, noise

[9:38] complaints? The reason for that is is that the loud noise is um for lack of a

[9:43] better term instantaneous. It may be continuous for um several minutes or or

[9:50] uh a little bit of time, but for the purposes of using a noise meter, um we

[9:57] need to have that established for several hours in the area in order to

[10:02] properly ascertain whether or not a complaint is uh valid. Um we also need

[10:08] to have a base level or a um ambient level uh for the start of the noise.

[10:16] That is something that through um through our department and the resources

[10:20] that we have, we do not have a continuous ambient noise level um

[10:26] registered throughout the city. So if we are looking into complaints, the first

[10:30] thing that would happen would be that um one of the uh air and water inspectors

[10:37] would go out and set up our meters to establish an ambient level. Then once we

[10:43] are able to establish an ambient noise level, then we would come back and take

[10:48] measurements at the time of incident to determine if something is higher or

[10:52] lower. But those are typically measured over the course of several hours so that

[10:57] we can get the range of noise in order to determine its source and what the uh

[11:02] potential solution for fixes. Um going back I know that there have been several

[11:09] complaints uh about establishments and the way that we have approached those.

[11:14] The reason why we have approached those from a licensing and occupancy

[11:20] standpoint is because those are the areas that we have the most authority

[11:25] and most enforcement on. Um affecting the noise itself is an instantaneous

[11:32] um measure and is difficult to enforce at the the specific time from uh the

[11:38] inspectional services um perspective. So when we do see items like that, we try

[11:44] other avenues that um will affect the business um

[11:49] more than just the the instantaneous noise. So we look at it from do they

[11:54] have the proper licenses to do this? Have they been to the licensing

[11:58] commission and have an entertainment license? Do they have the proper

[12:02] occupancy for the type of um event that's being held there? If they do not

[12:07] have that, then we will say that they don't have that under their occupancy

[12:11] laws. So, there are different ways that we uh enforce the noise ordinance and it

[12:17] really depends on the situation um which one of our enforcement abilities is best

[12:22] for that approach. >> Okay. So, um I have a question for you

[12:26] if you don't mind. um when we're aware of problem properties um after one or

[12:32] two calls I would think that we would maybe go out and establish a

[12:38] you know a basic um what did you call it u

[12:43] » ambient >> yep so

[12:47] so that we'd have that established because if if there's a pattern that

[12:50] there's this continuously repeating issue I I would think that we'd want to

[12:55] have that established so that Good. >> So, with to you counselor, um again with

[13:02] a with an establishment though where it's produced through music or speakers

[13:07] or or an item like that, >> the the ambient um level and then a

[13:12] noise meter >> is not going to provide the the

[13:18] instantaneous violation. We know that the violation is there. That's that's

[13:22] the violation as stated through the the noise ordinance for loud music that be

[13:28] that can be heard from the street. So a meter reading isn't something that is

[13:32] going to change the fact that yes that that is a

[13:36] noise complaint. It's how we're able to enforce the noise complaint um from that

[13:42] standpoint on. So if it is an establishment the way that we enforce

[13:46] the enforce the the noises is by the other avenues.

[13:50] » Right. Okay. >> Yeah.

[13:52] » To the council >> through the chair to the commissioner.

[13:56] So, just take me through the process at the time of licensing.

[14:00] » Mhm. >> I'm a venue. I want to have an event.

[14:05] There's going to be a band playing or DJ. Um, how's that play out at the

[14:10] license um commission meeting? >> Okay. So to you counselor, through the

[14:16] chair, um there are two scenarios that we're looking at uh when we're going in

[14:21] front of the licensing commission for an event of that nature. One is for a

[14:25] permanent establishment that wants to have bands and entertainment. So at that

[14:30] point if it is a permanent establishment um we've gone through uh the rest of the

[14:36] inspectional services protocol along with the health department the food

[14:40] inspectors and the building inspectors to establish um a use for the uh

[14:46] building an occupancy for the space and that it has met all of the safety

[14:52] requirements from the different building codes and fire codes. Once that's done,

[14:57] um there is an application made to the licensing commission. At the licensing

[15:01] commission, the establishment will state what they want that entertainment

[15:05] license for. If it will be for TVs, if it will be for DJs or live musics, at

[15:12] which point they will tell the commission when they want their

[15:16] operating hours to be. If it's within our permitted operating hours, the

[15:21] commission usually grants the requested hours. If it is for extended hours,

[15:26] there is a conversation. But uh usually the commission will limit the uh hours

[15:32] of operation within our ordinance hours so that uh all I believe all um

[15:38] entertainment needs to be shut down a half hour before closing.

[15:42] » And what would those be? >> Uh depending on the establishments,

[15:46] establishments can be open till 2 am. So there are some establishments that uh

[15:51] clo that stop their entertainment between 1 and 1:30. Um there are other

[15:55] establishments that close at 12. So they would stop their entertainment um at

[15:59] 11:30. >> So through the if I may through the

[16:02] chair, and don't mean to interrupt you, but I'm just going to cut to the chase.

[16:06] » So it's a church, they're having an event. What are their

[16:11] hours of operation? What what is generally allowed

[16:16] through the chair? um what is allowed for a religious um building or it's a a

[16:26] wedding birthday party uh christening. >> So if it's a if it is a church without a

[16:32] venue space then it is not um it's not a use or the building has not been uh

[16:39] classified as a use for that. Um, if we are looking at the church themselves,

[16:44] it's I believe that would be an A1 use. It's not an an A2 use is the one that

[16:50] serves drink and food and has entertainment. Those have different

[16:54] safety criteria than other A uses. A uses are assembly uses. So those would

[17:00] be areas like churches, synagogues, gyms, um, bars, and other and other

[17:06] items. So that's that is where if we were going for a church going to

[17:10] licensing commission they would have to ask for a special one-day entertainment

[17:16] license in order to have the event there that their space is not permitted for.

[17:22] At that point uh going forward at the licensing commission it would be

[17:26] advertised the abutters would be known uh that there was a request made for a

[17:31] one-day license and then the licensing commission would hear um the applicants

[17:37] as well as any abutters that would have any concerns about the one day license

[17:43] being issued. >> So on that

[17:46] » go ahead >> if I may through the chair. So in that

[17:49] in that discussion in that granting of the license is

[17:55] is um say a gym we want to use it for a

[18:01] wedding reception u a celebration of some sort

[18:07] you issue the one day license or the one the one time license. Does that come

[18:12] with hours of operation? Does that come with allowable

[18:18] sound? Like it's like are you saying to are you saying to the the applicant,

[18:23] look, um you can run up to I don't even know. I don't I couldn't even tell you

[18:27] what's an allowable sound. So um and maybe you can explain what that

[18:34] allowable sound is. Um and at midnight or 11 a.m. 11:00 p.m.

[18:42] it's done. it's got to be shut down because I know in my experiences at some

[18:47] of the festivals that I'm familiar with, um it's pretty much clockwork.

[18:52] » You know, whether the license was issued till midnight, I can tell you at 11:30

[18:59] it's shutting down and security and police on site are escorting people out,

[19:05] right? There's no um I haven't seen a mincing of words at

[19:10] that at all. But in other locations, I see a lot of self- freedom.

[19:16] Um, and it affects the neighbors. So, that's what I'm trying to get that's

[19:21] what I'm trying to get to the bottom of. >> No. Uh, through the chair, um, it

[19:27] becomes a want on the side of the establishment

[19:31] as well, um, to control their patrons and the events that are occurring there.

[19:38] Um, as far as the entertainment license, there is also a request on that

[19:44] application for amplified music. So, that would be where the potential for

[19:50] the loud noise would be coming from if that is the case. Um, yes, they can

[19:55] request a a permit for amplified music that allows for loud music to be played.

[20:02] Um, I believe that there are some conditions that say uh certain things

[20:08] can't be heard by, you know, by more than 50 feet at the edge of a certain

[20:12] property line in those areas for for the limits of that. Um, and yes, hours of

[20:18] the event are conditioned on the one-day entertainment amplified um music.

[20:24] » So those, if I may, I'm sorry. >> Go ahead.

[20:27] » Um, through the chair. So those hours of operation are the hours of operation. So

[20:34] again, say it was from 6:00 p.m. to midnight. Um,

[20:39] from from what I'm hearing, at 11:30, they need to shut it down and by

[20:43] midnight everybody needs to be gone. If those were the conditions put in on the

[20:49] license, yes, that would be through the chair. Yes. So if they go past midnight,

[20:54] say till 1:00 p.m. 1:00 a.m. through the chair, then that would be a

[20:59] that would be a violation. Okay. >> So how is that handled?

[21:04] If we through the chair, if we are made aware of the violation, um then people

[21:11] if if we are made aware of the violation and the time to go out and confirm that

[21:16] it is occurring, then uh depending on the responding group, um the the

[21:24] instructions will be to shut down and and a fine will be issued. Yeah,

[21:28] » I I have a question and then >> I know you're in a in a role here, but I

[21:34] I did was So, your inspectors would go out at 1:00 in the morning

[21:40] » through the chair. No. Uh the the ISD inspectors are not responding to noise

[21:44] complaints at 1 one in the morning. The only typically the only complaints that

[21:49] we're responding to at night are fires and uh displacements.

[21:53] » Okay. Thank you.

[21:55] » If I may, >> you may

[21:57] » through the chair. So, is the noise ordinance in place then till midnight

[22:01] or is it is there no is there no noise ordinance period if they're issued that

[22:07] permit to have their event through the chair? No, the noise ordinance is always

[22:12] in effect. They just need to follow the rules of their their permit that they

[22:18] receive. um that permit allows for certain exemptions to the noise

[22:23] ordinance once uh the the licensing commission issues um that that license.

[22:30] So if through the chair, if I may, >> yes, you may. Um,

[22:35] so if an establishment is violating their permit,

[22:43] music continues to go on, it's affecting the neighborhood, the neighborhood's

[22:48] call is to probably 911 or maybe the non-emergency number and police would be

[22:55] the determining factor at that point. uh through the chair uh that yes the the

[23:00] responding department would be the determining factor at that time

[23:04] » and from the police department's point of view I'm sorry through the chair the

[23:07] police department's point of view um all of this is triaged right their

[23:12] calls are I'm sure triaged from importance and this may just keep

[23:17] getting bumped down and bumped down bumped down bumped down as other motor

[23:22] vehicle accident shooting are going to take precedence through the chair I am

[23:28] not familiar with the the police officers response protocols. I do not

[23:33] want to answer for them. >> Okay, that's fine.

[23:35] » Chief, maybe the chief can respond to that.

[23:42] » Thank you, Chief. >> Thanks, Chief.

[23:49] Through the chair of council, that's correct. Everything is triaged. So if

[23:52] you have a more um emergency like call that's going to take sometimes those

[23:58] loud or uh noisy calls that come in could be delayed several hours.

[24:04] » Yeah. >> And it happens you know that's change of

[24:07] shift. Right. Sure. >> Most of the calls that happen at 12 1:00

[24:10] in the morning we are changing shifts and

[24:13] » officers have to go to those more pressing calls.

[24:17] » So if I may >> certainly

[24:19] » you can cut me off at any time. I'm sorry.

[24:22] Um, so in a situation like that, the police

[24:25] get called, they'll get there when they can get there. They arrive on scene.

[24:31] um either it's it's done or it's continuing.

[24:39] But it sounds to me that we don't have the ability to

[24:45] um test maybe is if that's the right word or find out if they are violating

[24:51] the noise ordinance. We know they're violating the time ordinance. They could

[24:55] be violating the noise ordinance, but we don't Am I safe to assume we don't have

[25:00] noise meters? You know, I'm sure the police aren't carrying noise meters

[25:04] around with them through the council. That's correct. We

[25:08] do not have noise meters. >> So, when a when an entity continues to

[25:12] constantly violate

[25:16] their license to operate their event,

[25:23] how is that? How is that um information sent forth to the license commission? So

[25:30] when they come back again for another license to have that event

[25:36] um it's either further scrutinized or it's just denied.

[25:41] I don't know through the share of council if it was a police related call

[25:46] and it's a problem property. so many calls within so much period of time.

[25:52] That information is related to the license commission as far as the liquor

[25:57] license if there is one. If there's no liquor license, I believe that falls

[26:02] towards inspectional services >> through the chair. Um we we do notify

[26:07] the council. Um uh our the licensing commission um liaison is in the ISD

[26:14] department. So we we coordinate with them and then if there is uh an issue

[26:19] with an establishment I go to the licensing commission meetings and and

[26:23] speak on behalf of ISD if we have concerns

[26:28] if I may. >> Yeah. One more.

[26:29] » Is is parking part of their licensing through the chair? Uh no. So they can

[26:37] park anywhere they want. They can park in their spa their building's property.

[26:43] they're free to park it on a butter's property and so forth. So through the

[26:48] chair, no, that's not that's not acceptable. They just they don't have

[26:53] the ability to grant permission for people to park anywhere. That doesn't

[26:57] give people permission to park wherever they want. The licensing commission just

[27:01] doesn't have the ability to give people permission to park places. So, regarding

[27:09] that, if they're parking on a public street, there's no

[27:14] even though it might be in front of somebody's house, there's no way to stop

[27:17] that because it's a public street. Correct.

[27:20] » Through the chair. Well, that would depend on the parking signs in that

[27:24] area. If there were any parking restrictions at that point, it would be

[27:27] a mobility and traffic um violation. >> So, I I I guess my big concern is

[27:34] striking a balance, right? If there's anything, you got to have a balance. If

[27:38] there's no balance, somebody's not having a good time, right? And and the

[27:42] area, >> you know, unfortunately, I'm dealing

[27:45] with two houses of worship that seem to be the biggest problems I've been

[27:52] dealing with in the last eight months. And um in some cases, I feel okay, maybe

[28:00] a little leniency should be given to them. But

[28:05] the more I'm hearing it myself and seeing it, uh, I'm starting to believe

[28:10] the latter and it's becoming a problem. And it's becoming a problem in an area

[28:15] where people are trying to have quiet enjoyment of their own property. And,

[28:21] you know, I could see a one-off festival as you see it throughout the city. It's

[28:27] not every month. It's not every week, but there are instances in some some of

[28:31] these organizations where it's weekly, monthly, multiple nights a week

[28:36] and it's getting out of control and um

[28:42] I don't feel we have the teeth in our ordinance to handle it. Um and with

[28:49] that, Madame Chair, through you maybe a chairman's order is to significantly

[28:55] raise >> um the violation fee. So it does hurt

[29:03] uh within the standards of the law that we

[29:07] » Yeah. Yeah. Right. You know, I think it's got to be looked at because I saw

[29:10] in here was $50 and if that's the fee, it's like, "Yeah, whatever. I'll give

[29:14] you the $50. I'm going to have a great time."

[29:16] » So, I I want to say uh and I know councelor Bergman has uh been here for a

[29:21] while as well that this is not just this year, not it was in your term before the

[29:27] last. >> Yes, I understand two terms before that.

[29:31] So, it's been an ongoing issue. Um, and it's something that I think that the

[29:37] neighborhoods really have been dealing with a lot. And so, I think, um, this is

[29:41] a good first step to um, increase the the fine. Um

[29:46] » because even and if I may through the chair even with that too if there's a

[29:51] problem property then I think it's now I think it's it falls upon us to find what

[29:58] the ambient noise level is >> you know and maybe incrementally find

[30:03] that out you know from 20T 30t 40T 50 100 ft so we have a baseline and then I

[30:11] feel also that at some point somebody on shift in the police

[30:17] department should be tasked with a sound whatever you I don't know what you call

[30:23] them >> sound meter

[30:24] » sound meter um and I understand that that's not

[30:28] always the case where you're going to be there at the moment things are happening

[30:32] um but we do have a permit of hours of operation and

[30:39] from what I'm seeing and hearing there's violations there and again I'm not

[30:44] trying I get it cuz my church they, you know,

[30:48] they have a huge festival every other year and as do many, but it's for three

[30:52] days and like I said, I I feel they at the end of the day when 11:30 comes,

[30:59] they're literally clearing the place out. The music stops, they're clearing

[31:02] the place out. The police, the security on site are ushering people out the

[31:07] door. And I think that should be the way um throughout. And on top of that, while

[31:15] I'm on my soap box, is it required to have Worcester police present

[31:23] at any event of that nature? Through the to the chair. Um that's a

[31:31] that's a determination of the licensing commission and the people that are

[31:35] there. As far as the conditions for large events, we always uh request a

[31:40] police detail or make sure that the police are going to be there along with

[31:44] fire department members and inspectional services members depending on the event.

[31:49] Um regarding some of these items, um we have taken in we've heard the concerns.

[31:55] We have taken into consideration a lot of the items that are there. One of the

[32:00] items that we were deficient on in inspectional services was the way that

[32:05] we were documenting these complaints. So, we've made some changes on the way

[32:10] that we go about doing the documentation and speaking with the people and then

[32:14] also making notices to those uh to those establishments so that we have a better

[32:19] record so that when we move forward with strengthened enforcement, there is a a

[32:24] track line and then a better case if we end up taking it to the full extent

[32:28] where we would go to court to to remove a license or add additional sanctions.

[32:34] And again, I'm not I appreciate all that you guys do. You can only do what you

[32:39] can do, right? And I appreciate that. And I think it's incumbent upon the

[32:42] council, too, to be part of the solution as well. Um,

[32:48] and I and again, I'm it pulls at me in both directions because I understand

[32:54] the church wanting to use its properties for its purposes, right? But when it

[33:00] when it contin continuously becomes a problem in any neighborhood,

[33:08] um I think that's when we need to step in and really take a look at it. And I

[33:13] would like to think that the license commission is aware of every violation

[33:18] an entity would have if it's been habitual for years because then I think

[33:25] it's a it comes upon the license commission to be a little more stern in

[33:30] their dealings.

[33:33] » I'll leave it at that. >> Okay.

[33:35] » Thank you. Um before we go on um AJ uh we'll have a chairman's order uh

[33:40] requesting um the law department to identify um how uh

[33:47] how high we can uh significantly raise the fee the fine for noise ordinance.

[33:55] » Thank you Madam Chair. Absolutely. And uh would you like to that to include a

[33:58] draft ordinance once that's determined? >> Yes, please.

[34:01] » Thank you. >> Thank you. All right. Do you have any if

[34:04] you don't mind? Nope. >> Madam Chair, let the law department

[34:07] answer that, but just for purposes to know how far or how little we can go

[34:13] with the incentive or disincentive, I think it's $300. So, but we'll wait for

[34:18] the law department to come back and give us that answer. I have a kind of a

[34:22] similar take, Councelor Conamu. Um, but I have a couple questions and maybe

[34:28] slightly variant on on what's being asked. It's been a while, but somebody

[34:34] applies through the chair for a license for this one-day event. Um, let's get

[34:41] scheduled for the lodge through the license commission. Is that correct?

[34:44] » Yes, through the chair. Yes. >> And where do notices go? Who do they go

[34:48] to? >> Through the chair. Um, I'm depending on

[34:52] the event that goes in, it goes out on uh on a public notice, but I don't know

[34:57] if it's a full of butters list or if it's just the Jason properties where it

[35:03] goes to >> because here's where I'm going with it.

[35:04] Try to cut to the chase on it. Seems to me that we may have reached the point

[35:09] given the inability and it's not a criticism, it's reality of being able to

[35:14] monitor every one day license we have out there that there should be an

[35:18] abutters list and there should be a hearing. If nobody if everybody's

[35:22] content with the event, then nobody's going to show up and complain. If people

[35:27] have had a prior history of a bad experience with the event, they're going

[35:31] to point out the issues that the license commission has to address with the

[35:36] petitioner. What time are you going to stop? How do we know you're going to

[35:39] stop? You're going to have a police officer there on a private detail. Um I

[35:44] I will you pay for a noise monitor so that you can see if you're violating the

[35:49] noise um ordinance, so on and so forth. Why not? I don't

[35:54] think it's too much to put the burden on the applicant. If they're doing nothing

[35:58] wrong and the neighbors are happy, they're not going to have to do anything

[36:00] more than they already do except for show up for hearing. If they're creating

[36:05] an event that's creating chaos in the neighborhood, then they're going to hear

[36:09] it. But that's what we do with almost every hearing. We invite the neighbors

[36:12] and we tell them, "What's your input? What's going what's good and what's

[36:16] not." I mean, I I think that in the old days, maybe we could have gotten away

[36:22] without having that kind of um input from the neighbors because I think the

[36:27] Well, let me ask you this through the chair. Do you know um Commissioner has a

[36:31] number of requests gone up or down over the last few years, exclude CO for

[36:36] requests for these licenses, these one-day liquor licenses? through the

[36:40] chair. Um, without having the the data in front of me, just from seeing the

[36:45] number of hearings, I would say that we've seen an increase

[36:48] » because I would think they've exponentially gone up

[36:51] » and I don't think we can handle it anymore without having hearings.

[36:54] » That's just my >> that's my own opinion

[36:56] » through the chair. The other thing that we're noticing as well is that it's not

[37:00] just the increase of the number of events, it's the size of the events. All

[37:04] of the events are starting to grow, too. Well, that well, that just makes me feel

[37:08] even more um I don't want to use the word confident,

[37:12] but feel more that the direction we should be going in is to consider um

[37:18] what is what would a permitting process look like in the sense of public notice.

[37:22] And I don't know if madam chair's interest in chairperson's order, but I

[37:26] don't see the burden on doing that because I think most of these are going

[37:31] to be routine check the box, but the larger ones may require more work as far

[37:36] as getting the answers to these questions.

[37:40] » All right, AJ, get that chairman's order.

[37:45] » Sure thing, Madam Chair. Got it. And by the way, the last comment is the ones

[37:49] that have had successful events in the past are probably going to sail through

[37:54] any sort of hearing because everybody knows they do the right thing. So ones

[37:58] that don't do the right thing are going to kind of get stopped in their tracks

[38:01] and it's a way I think and maybe the only way um

[38:06] to stop the bad behavior. So, um, the increase in number, what is

[38:13] the the for every venue they have a limit of how many people that they can

[38:18] get it? We we're finding out that they're they're not um complying with

[38:23] that that they're overstepping the the numbers

[38:27] » through the chair. That's that's one um item that we're finding in places.

[38:32] That's not always the the issue um is over capacity. Uh again, it it could be

[38:39] that they're uh playing amplified music without having the proper license or

[38:45] they're going too late. So, it's not it's not always an over capacity, but

[38:48] yes, every place that does have a license or is a place of assembly has a

[38:54] capacity limit that's provided that they cannot go over. councelor

[39:00] » through the chair. At at the beginning of a shift or a day

[39:05] or an evening, are the police notified of what events are going on in the city?

[39:12] » Is there a is there a list that goes out to

[39:17] the officers just so they are aware what's going on and where it's going on

[39:22] at >> through the chair. Uh we do not have a

[39:26] daily list that goes out. uh to the police. We do uh coordinate um with our

[39:32] officers on a weekly basis. Um we meet every Wednesday and go through uh the

[39:37] different events that are going on and different items that are coming up at

[39:40] the licensing commission, discuss if there are any issues at that point and

[39:45] then make any determinations or or take any actions that are necessary.

[39:50] » It's a weekly weekly report. Yeah. So, so I guess what what really got my

[39:57] goat on this the entity I'm referencing and I

[40:02] appreciate all that you've done to help you. I was lied to right to my face and

[40:08] that's right. That's right. You know, first time meeting

[40:14] lied to right out of the gate and that's I'm all set. So, you know, my

[40:20] responsibility is not to try to keep I want to try to keep the peace, but I

[40:26] don't I lose a lot of respect for people like that. So, that's what I'm I'm going

[40:32] to fight this as far as I can.

[40:37] » Council, do you have another another question?

[40:39] » I am also >> So, um, so we've got two chairman

[40:43] reports uh coming back. Is there anything else that uh you would

[40:47] recommend that we take a look at maybe get a list of um

[40:54] » yeah you know I don't again I don't know how it would look like from the police

[40:58] side of things I I actually agree with council Bergman I think the burden

[41:01] should be put on to the applicant

[41:06] » absolutely >> to police

[41:08] but I think I think it's our responsibility to have the baseline

[41:14] » right we're this is the baseline so whatever fit you know 50 dB is the

[41:19] number then you know at 20 feet 30 feet 40 50 100 feet this is what I expect to

[41:25] hear for if you go over this you're in violation if you go past your permit

[41:31] you're in violation and I think all that should come back to the to the license

[41:36] commission they should have that information in front of them how many

[41:40] times it happens um has happened and continues to happen and then I think as

[41:47] council Bergman said whether it's every abutter and their abutters. I don't know

[41:54] how far the noise level goes or how it travels in in air. Um I think it might

[42:02] be time to notify the abuters and they can come down to the license commission

[42:06] or file their their report on what they experience on a regular basis.

[42:13] So um then we're requesting requesting a change in the whole policy and having

[42:18] those um problem properties will be required to uh come down to uh hearing.

[42:25] » Yeah, I will >> and and in addition to that I want want

[42:28] to ask the chief um because you had suggested it that the uh officers have a

[42:34] meter in their trunk but I have a question would that require that would

[42:38] require training. How much time would that be?

[42:42] through the through the chair for the ISD staff members to get trained. It

[42:47] took a couple of days. First, it's to learn how to take the readings, set up

[42:51] the meters, observe, watch it happening. And then the second day is to learn how

[42:56] to read the results. So, going through and looking at the different noise

[43:00] results, each of the different pitches mean different things and different

[43:04] items. So, it's about two days to >> So, I'm I'm thinking is it possible to

[43:10] instead of having an officer do it? There's certainly a lot of other things

[43:16] out there. Is it possible to um reschedule somebody's time so that

[43:21] they're available later in the evening? Um I'm just thinking about

[43:26] » through the through the chair. I have a lot of staff that is always interested

[43:30] in overtime. I think that we could figure something out.

[43:34] So it just I mean it seems to me like this it's kind of a specialty in

[43:39] » through the chair. Yes, it is. Um it's it's the the meters are very sensitive

[43:43] as well depending on the the kind we get. I believe we have one of the more

[43:48] sensitive ones for it. They're >> they're $6,500 uh device um in order to

[43:54] get the proper tonal readings that we are looking for when it goes through. So

[43:59] uh yes, we can definitely make those adjustments.

[44:02] That seems to make more more sense to me.

[44:05] » Sure. Go ahead. >> Just just one last thought maybe

[44:09] question. You know, I'm all for the uh the meter readings and all that, but it

[44:14] seems to me going back to to what we talked about earlier. There's a process

[44:18] and I don't know exactly what it's going to look like, if it's going to happen at

[44:21] all, but something along the lines of what we were talking about the abuters

[44:24] getting notified. The beauty of that to me is that whether there's a meter that

[44:29] we have uh that we used or when we weren't able to use because we didn't

[44:33] have it or we got there too late or was on the border and somebody really wasn't

[44:37] sure how to interpret it. All that matters, but it matters to me less than

[44:42] how the people in the neighborhood felt about how it went because invariably,

[44:46] I'm going to guess, you could tell me I'm all wrong and I'm sure we don't have

[44:49] the numbers, but we probably could get them. I'm going to guess that the

[44:52] majority of applicants are repeat applicants. There's an event all the

[44:57] time, once, twice, maybe more times a year. So, the system, if we were to

[45:02] adopt some sort of hearing, would regulate itself in some ways without

[45:07] even a noise meter because once the neighbors got noticed and they say, you

[45:11] know what, last time you guys abused the privilege of having uh the liquor

[45:17] license because you didn't play the rules, you were too loud, you went on

[45:20] too long, whatever. So yes, I agree we need a meter, but uh noise meter,

[45:25] whatever the proper term is. But I also really would like us all to think about

[45:29] what some sort of process would look like where the neighborhood input um can

[45:35] really have a major effect because right now I I'm guessing nobody shows up.

[45:39] Those meetings, by the way, at the license commission, if I remember,

[45:42] they're during the day um as well. They're not exactly the time that a lot

[45:47] of people that are working are going to show up

[45:49] » through through the chair. Yes, they are from 10 to 12 on the 2nd and fourth

[45:55] Thursday of each month. So, they're they're a little bit uh not convenient

[46:00] for uh working members, but we do have the online option if people are able to

[46:05] to remote in if they have concerns. Um, one item that I do want to bring up is

[46:10] that we are talking about um having the hearings and people coming in and what

[46:15] we do to to people with licenses if they violate it. One of the the issues that

[46:21] we've been dealing with though is that one of the places that has been of the

[46:25] biggest concern hasn't been going for the licenses and hasn't been getting um

[46:30] the one days or going before the board. That's why we were having such

[46:34] difficulty in enforcing certain things and why we took certain tactics because

[46:40] they were not coming in front of the board in order to get a license for us

[46:43] to put forth these things. We were getting complaints because they were

[46:47] having these events without going to the board.

[46:51] » So through the sorry >> so what's what is the uh

[46:55] » what's the end result for this >> through the chair that's

[46:58] » this particular entity? Well, through the chair, that's why we had started the

[47:03] process in order to uh revoke their certificate of occupancy and uh come in

[47:11] and and add the additional um enforcement items that we did by

[47:16] declaring the building unsafe for those type of events and and those items. So,

[47:22] we did take certain actions. We were we were told that the uh activities were

[47:28] going to stop. We were under the impression that they had and then we we

[47:34] received some notifications over the weekend that they had not. So we are

[47:38] going to be looking into some additional enforcement for that area

[47:42] » such as >> well we have to determine if it's a a

[47:46] oneoff for this weekend because again for the last three months we haven't had

[47:50] any complaints. If it was a oneoffer this weekend and we have the evidence to

[47:55] prove it, they'll be issued a fine and told, you know, please, you know, don't

[48:00] do it again. If it continues, then we will take the additional actions that we

[48:05] threatened before up to the removal of occupancy for that building.

[48:10] council.

[48:15] » I see that as a complete disrespect of the neighborhood,

[48:21] yourself, and the people that you are allowing

[48:25] to use your property. Something goes wrong,

[48:30] who we got major problems. If something goes wrong in a building like that, and

[48:35] again, I'm not this isn't coming at you or the or the chief, but just thinking

[48:40] about it, it's like that's a complete disrespect to all of us. And

[48:46] if the fine is a $50 fine, send all the fines you want. That's why

[48:51] I asked for that. Um, >> right.

[48:55] And then I also I I got to think is when do you just put a chain around the

[49:01] whole place and just lock it up? >> So through the through the

[49:05] » And it floors me too where it's coming this is coming from a house of worship

[49:10] not not not Joe Schmo

[49:14] » down the street. I understand through the chair that was part of the reason

[49:18] why we went um we used the building code for enforcement because through the

[49:23] building code I can find up to $1,000 for each violation and that's what we

[49:28] were planning on doing for the for the continued enforcement was to to go for

[49:32] the higher fines. >> Um I believe that that does send a

[49:36] message when people are are not following what they need to do. So I I

[49:41] do try and find the maximum possible and get them up as high as we can so that we

[49:46] can get the attention that we need to resolve the situation.

[49:50] » Okay. So can we have um for chairman's quarter? Can we have a a report on this

[49:58] process step by step? Um including you know

[50:05] contacting the neighbors and uh and I think you should also um have

[50:11] identify a list of problem properties for the past year or two years. Um

[50:17] and I think that would be that would be helpful too. um

[50:22] and then uh come back with that proposed. Is that something um AJ is

[50:27] that something that we have to approve council when they change the policy or

[50:31] is that something that's done >> with Madam Chair? I think it may make

[50:37] the most sense to get a report on the policy and then any changes that may be

[50:42] » that could be implemented as a result of them. I I don't know. It sounds

[50:46] administrative in nature the policy itself, but Um the ordinance would

[50:51] definitely fall under um city council authority. For example, if we do

[50:56] increase the fines, um that would be an ordinance that we would need to update.

[51:01] Um but that would be um the extent that I can think of off the top of my head

[51:05] right now. >> Okay. All right.

[51:09] » Yeah, Madam Chair, I think this is a great place to start. I I also

[51:14] » when that report comes back, we can bring it back to committee and I, you

[51:17] know, I'd like us to at least take a look at some other communities and what

[51:21] they're doing with their uh >> right

[51:23] » permitting process and >> some best practices.

[51:25] » Yeah. >> Because I think um it might be time for

[51:28] a change on how we handle it or even log it into our system

[51:33] um for enforcement. >> Yeah. Very good. Uh so uh this

[51:41] particular order we can we can uh file and then we'll have that come back to

[51:47] the committee. >> All right.

[51:48] » All right. Um all those in favor so voted. Thank you very much commissioner.

[51:53] I appreciate it. >> Thank you.

[51:55] » Thank you gentlemen. >> Thank you commission uh chief for uh

[51:59] popping in on that. Um now we have uh 4A uh transmitting informationational

[52:05] communication relative to the hospital guard police department chief

[52:11] » to the chair. So whenever anybody is in our custody we

[52:17] basically own that person as far as anything that

[52:22] happens to them. If they're hurt whatever we have to make sure they

[52:25] receive treatment. So, if you are being detained in our building, we have to

[52:31] take you to the hospital. In order to do that, we need to have an officer

[52:36] with the arrestee as they go to the hospital, they're handcuffed, and if the

[52:43] handcuffs need to come off to be treated, we do that. So, some incidents

[52:49] they go up there for a relatively short time, other times they could be up there

[52:53] for days. We try to work with the clerk magistrate to have them bailed if it is

[52:58] available um arrest. Sometimes that does not work.

[53:03] So if you look at

[53:07] last year 2025 we spent we had 733 hospital guards totaling

[53:15] 6,758 hours. So those officers come off the

[53:19] street and they're at the hospital obviously only paying attention to one

[53:24] thing and that is the arresty. So that does not help with any type of crime

[53:30] reduction. Same thing for uh 2026 from January to April we had 251

[53:38] for 3,244 hours. So realistically the only way to

[53:45] do something different is to have people staged on overtime. You can call the

[53:50] problem is the weekends, >> right?

[53:53] » And you know, we can only have so many

[53:56] people off. >> Yep.

[53:58] » During the week and we max maximize what they can do on the weekends. Everybody

[54:04] wants a weekend off. Unfortunately, we don't get them. So

[54:09] when you have three or four arrestes at the hospital now you get approximately

[54:14] 15 to 16 police officers uh policing a city of 210,000.

[54:22] It's not too good. >> No, not at all. Um,

[54:26] so I'm just looking have um, so these

[54:32] individuals when they're in the emergency room um, they're in a regular

[54:37] they're either in the hall which is where a lot of people are these days

[54:41] holding um, or they're in a regular room. There's no secure

[54:46] uh, area. Would that be helpful if you talked to

[54:52] the hospitals to establish a secure >> unit

[54:55] » unit? >> Uh to the chair, the problem is it's not

[54:58] just us. >> Uh Wisconsin sheriff's department has to

[55:02] go to hospital. Other >> agencies outside of Wister Hass. So I

[55:06] don't know how they could secure a location just for arrestes.

[55:11] » So as you said, usually they're in the hallway.

[55:14] » Very rarely are they in a room unless they're being admitted

[55:17] » for several days. Okay. Um, is there is is there any other way that you could

[55:25] think of? I I think I've I don't know. Uh,

[55:32] than what we're doing. Is there anything any other departments doing that's

[55:36] ameliating the situation or to the chair? We can't really

[55:43] put us up against other departments. We're the second largest police

[55:46] department in New England. So we are trying to do things through

[55:51] contract negotiations as far as hours >> um that's still out there where

[55:58] different hours that the officers work. That would be one solution but we have

[56:03] to wait until that >> comes to fruition. We can't do anything

[56:06] with it now. >> Sometimes if I may.

[56:09] » Yep. Sure. >> So each through the chair if to the

[56:15] chief if If a root officer is on his way to the

[56:20] hospital with a patient

[56:25] and then another call comes in, that root officer also

[56:31] is with that person. So there's two officers with two different people.

[56:36] Correct. For security through the chair of the counselor. The person under

[56:40] arrest will be going by wagon. >> Yep. and the officer is called to leave

[56:45] his or her route to go up to the hospital.

[56:48] » Okay? >> So now you have two officers in route.

[56:52] If another call comes in for another prisoner going up, then you have another

[56:56] officer coming up. >> So realistically,

[56:59] » we've I think it was this week I get I get a thing every eight hours on what's

[57:03] going on. And >> yeah,

[57:04] » we uh I think we had four or five on Sunday.

[57:08] » So what would um I I guess just trying to think how you would

[57:14] handle something like that even even on overtime, right? Because you could have

[57:18] a day where it's just quiet and nobody goes or you get a a day like you had

[57:23] where you had five going. Um >> how would how would that any idea how

[57:28] that might look? >> Three chair council, you'd have to put

[57:32] people like on a standby. >> Yeah.

[57:35] » Like a call. And we would try to only do that with

[57:38] people being admitted >> because it's just it's just

[57:42] » overwhelming. >> It'd be very very difficult.

[57:44] » Crazy. >> We tried it for a little while a couple

[57:47] years back, but it really wasn't u didn't work out too well.

[57:57] » No, you're ready. >> Go ahead.

[57:59] » Thank you, Madam Chair. Through the chair to the uh to the chief. Um

[58:04] just one of my questions is this I know it's department policy. Is this more

[58:10] than a policy as far as it being like a state law that you have to accomp x

[58:15] number of officers have to accompany an injured person or is it department

[58:19] policy through the chair council? It is only one officer but one has to

[58:24] transport him up there and then that officer returns as the other officer had

[58:30] has uh arrived. So now they do two to four hour increments. So you know going

[58:36] out at roll call that you've have the 12:00 shift. So you leave your route to

[58:42] meet the other officer and relieve them and that officer leaves and goes back on

[58:47] their if there's only one guy. So, in addition to the time it takes to

[58:52] transport to the hospital through the chair, it's also the lost ability to

[58:56] police by uh driving back and forth to relieve

[59:01] each other >> through the chair. That's correct.

[59:03] » I tell you what, my concern is I'm also I'm actually hesitant to even say it out

[59:08] loud, but I'm sure I'm not saying anything that people haven't thought of.

[59:11] If there was ever, god forbid, concerted effort by any

[59:16] group of bad people um to do harm in Worcester, it seems to me they could

[59:20] stage very easily a number of people being injured and really deplete a

[59:25] particular shift and then go on and do something they they intended to do. So I

[59:31] mean it's it's a deep concern of mine um as it is all of ours. So through the

[59:35] chair to the chief what we've talked about this before would increasing the

[59:39] number of police officers which for a variety of reasons in addition to this

[59:43] reason I believe we need to get to that 500 level I know a lot of my colleagues

[59:47] do as well would that help >> through the chair of council I've always

[59:52] been an advocate for double cars because if you have a double car

[59:57] » at least bringing the officer up there dropping them off and that car can then

[1:00:02] go back into service >> right

[1:00:04] » so at least you would still have one route officer on the route. Right now,

[1:00:10] it's very rare that we have double cars. And the other part of that is if you go

[1:00:14] to an alarm call, you need two cars. >> If you go to a domestic, you need two

[1:00:18] cars. >> So, you have cars coming from and as far

[1:00:21] as a noise ordinance, whoever has that in their trunk may not be the guy.

[1:00:26] » Right. >> So, it's

[1:00:27] » that's why I suggested that. >> So, so increased number of the officers

[1:00:32] would be a help. >> Yes.

[1:00:34] for a lot of reasons including this one. >> All right. Thank you.

[1:00:38] » So through the chair, how do we how do we make this

[1:00:42] » change? Because not only is it an issue with officers, but now you have a route

[1:00:48] that's vacant, >> right?

[1:00:50] » Other officers are coming from other parts of the city to cover that route,

[1:00:55] which also is leaving that area unprepared. Um, so it's a it's quite an

[1:01:02] issue in my opinion as I see it sitting here tonight and I don't I agree with

[1:01:07] the double officers in the car because at least it gives you that flexibility

[1:01:13] um what would need to take place to make that happen in the short term anyways

[1:01:18] through chair council not only is it more effective it's safer

[1:01:23] and addition to that what I would do was if I had the personnel I would make the

[1:01:29] route smaller. That way you have less jurisdiction to cover and you put more

[1:01:34] people out so that when there are people leaving, they can more easily

[1:01:40] cover that smaller jurisdiction or route. So we have 20 right now. Make it

[1:01:46] 30. And it should be done by a study of where the most calls are coming from.

[1:01:53] Right now it's 20 roots. It's been that way probably for 50 years. We need to

[1:01:59] come together and maximize the technology we have that can tell us

[1:02:05] when and where the calls are coming and then you deploy your troops according to

[1:02:10] that >> but you need the personnel to do it

[1:02:14] » right >> that's um

[1:02:17] » to the chair I would I would ask for a chairman's order on that to ask the

[1:02:21] manager and the chief to come forward with something

[1:02:24] » y >> um at least so we can get an idea what

[1:02:28] it would look like, what it would cost, at least start it in some manner.

[1:02:33] Doesn't have to be full-blown, but at least I agree. Follow the data,

[1:02:39] » right? >> Um, so we'll do a chairman's order for

[1:02:42] report uh on that and um >> y

[1:02:49] to interrupt your train of thought, but um the one question I forgot to ask in

[1:02:53] addition to increasing the number of police officers

[1:02:57] would have going back to some sort of precinct police stations

[1:03:04] help um if we had enough personnel as far as minimizing the trips to the

[1:03:09] hospital and so on and so forth um because that's system that used to be in

[1:03:14] place and I know a lot of people in a lot of neighborhoods

[1:03:17] love to see police officers walking down their neighbor I mean you know this

[1:03:21] notion that only certain neighborhoods get walking beats and others Well, there

[1:03:27] may be some truth to it, but it has to do with personnel. I think every

[1:03:30] neighborhood should have in every district.

[1:03:32] » I we've talked about I brought that up before have precincts and

[1:03:36] » right through through chair to council. I wrote that plan and within it was that

[1:03:42] we were going to have to maximize the number of officers to make that work.

[1:03:46] » The the key to that is to have the same officers in the same area every single

[1:03:50] day. That way you have that community engagement. If you don't have enough

[1:03:55] cops, then you're going to keep switching them to different precincts.

[1:03:58] And that's why that was not a viable alternative.

[1:04:02] » Can I just add a comment? No more questions. All this goes back to me. You

[1:04:06] know, we we just finished a budget, billion dollar budget. I think going

[1:04:09] back into the next budget cycle. Um there has to be a cohesive unified um

[1:04:16] message to the city manager that it's time to start. I know it's challenge

[1:04:22] challenge to keep what we got, but we have to start figuring out how do we get

[1:04:25] to that 500 number because we can't just keep treading water and just trying to

[1:04:31] equal what we've got when we have college kids here that make our

[1:04:34] population larger. We've got a population that grows more than any

[1:04:37] other city historically in the last decade. Um, and proportionally, we've

[1:04:43] talked about this on the council floor. Worcester has less police officers per

[1:04:47] as a percentage of population than every other major city in New England,

[1:04:51] Providence, Springfield, so on and so forth. So, I mean, those of us that

[1:04:55] believe that that's part of the solution, I think there's a good number

[1:04:58] of us have to make sure that next year's budget includes a game plan. It's not

[1:05:02] going to happen in a year, but it's going to start happening.

[1:05:05] » I would agree if if I could just add to that. So,

[1:05:09] » we have been fortunate that we get a class every year.

[1:05:12] The issue is sustaining those that are going to be leaving. Like

[1:05:17] my class, the class before me 30, we all have 32 years,

[1:05:23] » right? >> Why do you stay longer when you're

[1:05:26] working for 20 cents on the dollar? That's the question,

[1:05:30] » right? With everything going on, that's you're in reality, that's what you're

[1:05:34] being paid because you're already at 80%. So people leave, they go to other

[1:05:39] agencies or they leave and get other jobs. Um, so now like today we're

[1:05:44] probably down 70 75 cops. So you you it's very difficult to sustain that. I

[1:05:52] advocated and I've said it before for two classes a year to try to get that

[1:05:57] number up. That's something that I think we

[1:06:01] absolutely should be asking in the form of a chairman's lawyer that

[1:06:06] the U manager um put on an extra class.

[1:06:12] » Would you also consider on that order >> to include looking at what other

[1:06:16] municipalities might be doing to incentivize officers from from retiring?

[1:06:22] » I think we have an order. I think I did put an order in on that.

[1:06:26] » Maybe remind certain people that we need that answer.

[1:06:29] » Yeah. AJ, did you hear that? >> Madam Chair, I'm sorry. Could you repeat

[1:06:34] that? >> Sure. I I I think I I had filed an order

[1:06:37] requesting what other uh cities and towns are doing to incentivize um

[1:06:42] recruit recruiting and transfers of police officers. Um but if we haven't,

[1:06:48] then I'd like to do that as a chairman's order.

[1:06:51] » And otherwise, perhaps we could just get an update on where that's at either way.

[1:06:54] So yeah, we can put that in. No problem. All right, that's good. Um, and then um

[1:07:00] we're talking about uh coming up with a a plan uh including budget and etc. um

[1:07:06] for increasing um the numbers. Um >> but if I may, Madam Chair, even if we

[1:07:11] had 10 more, right, and say if we're able to work our system the way we're

[1:07:17] working it, we had 10 more that we could double up 10 units or five units, five

[1:07:24] roots where the data brings us I think would

[1:07:30] be a vast improvement on a short term that I feel we might be able to tackle

[1:07:36] in a a year's time. Um >> I'm looking at the numbers and I'm not

[1:07:41] so sure. >> No, I just I we got to start somewhere,

[1:07:44] you know, and I agree with Council Bergman. I think we do need to increase

[1:07:47] our compliment. We're a growing we're a growing city and

[1:07:51] » this is taking men and women off the street

[1:07:55] » where we want them sticking them in a hospital as a guard where their talents

[1:08:01] can be used elsewhere. >> Oh, absolutely. I think we've all said

[1:08:04] that on the floor. >> Yeah.

[1:08:05] » Numerous times. And I think it's just a it's not something that's happening just

[1:08:08] in Wester. Other police departments are experiencing it. Um and uh I think it's

[1:08:14] been it's been very difficult. But what bothers me is yes, we're currently down

[1:08:18] 75, but we're talking potential of how many people are in those two classes.

[1:08:26] » The number left maybe 60, 70.

[1:08:31] » So that's potentially could be 110, 115. >> Yeah. No, I'm with you.

[1:08:36] » So it's I I think I got up on this floor and said that this was a massive crisis

[1:08:41] here. So um you know I think it's we need to do something and I I think uh

[1:08:47] whether whether it's is there any way that they

[1:08:53] they have to be they have to be they couldn't be uh a retiree or something

[1:08:59] like that. It has to be a full >> through the chair of council. you know,

[1:09:03] because >> if you have to arrest someone, I mean,

[1:09:07] » people show up, try to freeze. I mean, it's

[1:09:10] » Yeah, I get you. >> There's a lot to it.

[1:09:11] » No, I just I was just trying to think outside the box.

[1:09:14] » If I Is there a way to through the chair to work cohesively with other

[1:09:18] departments who may be also, you know, whether it's the sheriff's, other towns.

[1:09:24] » I think it's a custody issue >> through the chair of the council. That's

[1:09:28] correct. It's once they're in our custody,

[1:09:31] » we own them. >> We own them. Anything that happens to

[1:09:33] them, it's on us. >> Okay.

[1:09:35] » Yeah. So, all right. So, we'll we'll look for uh for report and potential uh

[1:09:41] solutions to this. Uh Chief, thank you very much. I appreciate all the hard

[1:09:46] work you guys are doing. >> Uh and I was remiss um No, go ahead. Uh

[1:09:52] I was remiss and I had a a resident who wanted to comment on the uh noise

[1:09:59] ordinance. So, please come forward. Hi, my name is Bruce Hoffner.

[1:10:05] Um, I deal with some property on Lincoln Street and Wayside Road. Um, I like all

[1:10:12] the ideas, uh, Mr. Ricono had and, uh, obviously, uh, Council Bergman had some

[1:10:20] good ideas. Um, I I'd like to throw out a couple of things.

[1:10:26] First of all, being lied straight to our face. Five years we've been lied to. So,

[1:10:32] with that said, let's make it painful

[1:10:37] for them to keep lying. I'm talking about $5,000 fine.

[1:10:44] All right? Maybe the second time, maybe the first, third, I don't know, but make

[1:10:50] it incremental because this has gone on too long. I had

[1:10:55] a dog die because of the thumping. He just kept barking all night long. It

[1:11:01] was my guard dog. He thought someone was banging on the

[1:11:05] doors and I know it was because of that. I

[1:11:10] know that. So if it's incremental when they feel the pain,

[1:11:18] it's going to be something for them to think about.

[1:11:20] » Well, I think that's I Mr. Hoffner, I do believe that we we said that that we do

[1:11:26] need to increase the fines and and I understand the incremental. That's what

[1:11:30] I think uh the commissioner was talking about as well.

[1:11:33] » But I'm talking about pain >> 5,000.

[1:11:37] » Yeah. >> You wake up when it gets to 5,000.

[1:11:40] » Yeah. Well, I I we also asked for what the legal limits are for increasing the

[1:11:44] fine. So, we'll wait and find out about that and we'll have that brought forward

[1:11:48] to council and have it come back to the >> the other thing is is another person's

[1:11:54] been online waiting to speak. >> Okay. Uh, and there's one I was not

[1:11:59] being aware of that. >> There's one other thing that I just want

[1:12:02] to bring up. >> So, everybody on Pasadena Parkway

[1:12:06] surrounding that church has moved out except for one person.

[1:12:11] Everybody. They've all moved out. They've sold their houses.

[1:12:16] One of them, one woman had cancer. They didn't care about that. Another person

[1:12:21] had a nervous breakdown. He actually started threatening people with guns. We

[1:12:26] don't want to get to that point again. >> So, we do not

[1:12:30] » I you know I didn't sleep this weekend because of this. Okay. Usually I go up

[1:12:34] to New Hampshire, >> but I work this weekend. It was the end

[1:12:38] of the month. Usually in September things get very busy for the inspection

[1:12:44] business. I open at 7 in the morning, close at 9:00.

[1:12:48] » So, I'm way overt tired and I'm really aggravated.

[1:12:53] But thank you. Uh, I wish you could address Joe Kasher online.

[1:12:57] » Yep. I wasn't aware that there was someone online. Sorry.

[1:13:02] » Thank you, >> Madam Chair. We would use this

[1:13:03] opportunity to remind folks if they do want to speak to please use the raise

[1:13:07] hand function. And again, the raise hand function is the bottom center of your

[1:13:11] screen or you dial star 9 to raise your hand. And madam chair, we have one

[1:13:15] person raising their hand. uh the person I can identify as Phillip. Just your

[1:13:20] full city full name city or town of address and the item that you're

[1:13:25] speaking on. Thank you. >> Hi, can you hear me?

[1:13:30] » Yes. >> Yes.

[1:13:31] » My name is Joseph Carsha, my family property about St.

[1:13:37] Jonavar Church. And um I'm a little bit confused. Um, it sounds to me after

[1:13:43] listening and waiting to speak for over an hour, um, there there's a process in

[1:13:49] place for the license commission to receive an application and a butters to

[1:13:54] be invited to a hearing. There's been um, dozens of um, events at this church.

[1:14:03] Uh, and not all of them have resulted in complaints, but I have never once

[1:14:08] received a invitation to a hearing for licenses. Um, fact is I I most recently

[1:14:15] got invited to one because one of the inspectional services employees happened

[1:14:19] to see one of the emails cuz I started having to email half the city uh to get

[1:14:25] any sort of response from the city. Now, um

[1:14:30] I've spoken and had interactions to many police officers and emergency

[1:14:35] communications department uh employees and they

[1:14:41] none of them understand the noise ordinance. They don't understand the

[1:14:44] peritting process. Um they make up lies about there being permits and then there

[1:14:49] are none when I seek public records for them. They don't know how to assess

[1:14:54] complaints um or document violations. That's the issue. Um

[1:15:01] really hoping people get trained uh and given decimal meters. I'm a little bit

[1:15:06] confused how unlicensed entertainment can take place

[1:15:12] for, you know, years and years and years. They're not they're just begging

[1:15:16] for forgiveness instead of going through the process of asking for permission. I

[1:15:20] feel like that should be grounds to just shut it down at this point. Why are you

[1:15:24] continuing to be played? And just for the record, I have

[1:15:30] absolutely no issue with events happening there. Uh people worship,

[1:15:35] worshiping, celebrating, uh gathering, assembling. Um I think it's healthy for

[1:15:41] uh people to be spiritual. It's look, I live hundreds of feet away from this

[1:15:46] property and can hear it in my house and I have a legal um right to peaceful

[1:15:54] enjoyment of my property. This there's no question that they are breaking the

[1:16:00] language in the noise ordinance. Um, I have uh body cam footage of officers

[1:16:08] agreeing like, "Yeah, we're hundreds of feet away from this building with the

[1:16:12] doors closed and we can hear it and we would be pissed too if we were trying to

[1:16:16] go to sleep." >> Um, so this is just Come on. I mean,

[1:16:22] really. So, the Yeah, >> they go down, they uh take occupancy um

[1:16:28] certificates away and then they give it back when they go down to the office and

[1:16:32] beg for them. That's ridiculous. And so, of course, it's going to happen again.

[1:16:36] Um, was this past Saturday? Was did they go through the licing licensing process

[1:16:42] for that? No, I doubt they did. Um, come on. This is just ridiculous at this

[1:16:47] point. And just so everyone knows, I went down into that church, met with the

[1:16:52] priest, brought my own personal DJ equipment, and showed them what like an

[1:16:57] appropriate sound system would um be like. and they wouldn't even bother um

[1:17:03] the neighborhood if they use that. They don't listen. They want to bring in huge

[1:17:07] powerful subbase. They want to bring in hundreds and hundreds of people and

[1:17:12] blast the music. That's the problem. And you know, I think it's we're all in

[1:17:17] agreement. There's no it's just unmanageable. Like it's the wrong person

[1:17:22] running things, >> right? I agree. I agree with you. And

[1:17:25] that's why we're we're moving forward with all of this. Certainly.

[1:17:30] How about this? You've been very patient because, you know, we've talked about

[1:17:34] this for several years, too. >> So, I do think that the commissioner I

[1:17:38] do think that the commissioner uh has um you know, the right uh tactic to move

[1:17:45] forward. Uh we asked some good questions. We're waiting for reports and

[1:17:50] uh so I think that uh let's let's get that uh information and we can talk

[1:17:54] about this uh at the next u hearing. >> Yeah. I I mean, in my opinion, it should

[1:18:00] be the next time it happens. Okay? And you don't need decibel meters to drive

[1:18:05] up Wayside Road hundreds of feet away and use your own two ears and hear it

[1:18:10] plainly audible as um defined in the noise uh ordinance. I mean, I could

[1:18:17] literally sing the baselines to you. That's how many times I've heard them.

[1:18:21] » I'm sure. >> Yeah. So, I mean, maybe take away the

[1:18:25] occupancy uh certificate the next time this happens.

[1:18:28] » That's >> and I, you know, I appreciate all of you

[1:18:31] for giving me the opportunity and listening and I especially appreciate uh

[1:18:37] councelor econom for bringing this forward. Um, so thank you.

[1:18:40] » Thank you very much. Thank you. All right. So, uh,

[1:18:45] » may I speak >> on these two items, sir?

[1:18:49] » I'm sorry. on on either the noise ordinance or

[1:18:54] or the um on the

[1:18:57] » speak on public safety business. >> Uh it's not on the agenda. It it's if

[1:19:02] it's not either of those two things, it's not on the agenda, sir.

[1:19:05] » Well, then I'll speak on the noise. >> It has to be completely regarding that

[1:19:11] particular ordinance. >> I will speak on the noise ordinance.

[1:19:16] May I speak? >> Yes, sir. your name in city.

[1:19:19] » I'm Gordon Davis. I lived in this city almost 60 years.

[1:19:26] And the north and when we have a demonstration, the police would come and

[1:19:32] say, "Our loud speaker, our bullhorn, this is first amendment rights is too

[1:19:39] loud." And I tell him, well, how do you know that? And then he says, "Then the

[1:19:46] police would say this is several demonstrations.

[1:19:49] Well, you s turn it off for a real rescue."

[1:19:54] So I'm saying that was racist. I'm also saying that what's happening with the

[1:20:02] CNA report is also racist in that the police chief has said CNA reporting

[1:20:09] anything about it. I'm sorry. and that this committee which is supposed to keep

[1:20:16] people safe out of water is is harming us.

[1:20:21] » Sir, >> what? No, you will listen to me.

[1:20:25] This is a public safety committee. The people in Wester are being harmed

[1:20:32] and you're not taking it up.

[1:20:45] talk about it later. >> You heard me. You know, and that's that

[1:20:52] » the uh that's the end of this uh subcommittee and I want to thank

[1:20:57] everybody for attending. >> Madam Chair, what did you do with item 4

[1:21:01] A? Would you like to file that? >> Yes, please. Okay. Thank you.

[1:21:04] » Thank you. Motion to adjurnn.

Standing Committee on Public Safety 09/08/2026

Transcript